1. Wholistic Medicine
2. Gentler system of medicine with no side effects
3. Strengthens immune system
4. Tried and Tested Medicines
5. Long lasting to permanent cure
6. Often avoids Surgery
7. Cost effective

you actually paticipating in our debate?

1. Wholistic Medicine
2. Gentler system of medicine with no side effects
3. Strengthens immune system
4. Tried and Tested Medicines
5. Long lasting to permanent cure
6. Often avoids Surgery
7. Cost effective

Where is your proof of ANY of those claims???? Things like the results of large clinical trials? All I've ever seen is the "testimony" of some individuals and a few so-called doctors.

Can you rise to this challenge with solid evidence or not??????

1. Wholistic Medicine
2. Gentler system of medicine with no side effects
3. Strengthens immune system
4. Tried and Tested Medicines
5. Long lasting to permanent cure
6. Often avoids Surgery
7. Cost effective


Alternatively, patients could wait for enchanted pink unicorns and fairies to fly in through their window and cure them by sprinkling magic moon dust on them. This would be equally effective.

:rolleyes:

Of course, the real reason is that they're ignorant about the natural world. Oh, I gather that 'patient' is not actually your preferred term - 'mark' or 'victim' or somesuch is the standard nomenclature among hustlers, if popular culture is anything to go by.

1. Wholistic Medicine

Drinking plain water is "holistic medicine"? I suppose it does hydrate your body...

2. Gentler system of medicine with no side effects

True. You have to drink lots of water to have ill health effects.

3. Strengthens immune system

Not likely, given that it is just water.

4. Tried and Tested Medicines

Most of the properly controlled trials I've heard of have found no effect greater than placebo.

5. Long lasting to permanent cure

Most of the properly controlled trials I've heard of have found no effect greater than placebo.

6. Often avoids Surgery

Drinking water? I don't think so.

7. Cost effective

Drinking tap water would be cheaper.

now james give them credit. It does do all those things IF the inital condition is dehydration and its better than renal failure

1. Homeopathy is a wholistic medicine because the concept of disease in homoeopathy is that disease is a total affection of mind and body, the disturbance of the whole organism. Allopathy focuuses on just physical body. It thinks mind, emotions have no or little effect on physical body. They kept on focussing on organs not the complete body.

2. Homeopathy is a gentle medicine with micro doses. High mateial doses in allopathy results in large no. of side effects, many resulting in thousands of deaths worldwide.

A study reported in the Journal of the American Medical Association found that conventional drugs kill about 106,000 Americans a year, and this figure is limited to patients that die in the hospital, so the actual figure is unquestionably much higher. That makes prescription drugs the fourth leading cause of death in the United States (after heart attack, cancer and stroke).

3. With the massive way antibiotics (kills flora as well as bad bacteria) are being prescribed today they have suppressed and in no time going to destroy the immune system.

http://www.chiro.org/ChiroZine/ABSTRACTS/antibiotics.shtml

4. Homeopathic medicines have been tried and tested on healthy human beings. They are known, trusted, and reliable. Allopathic medicnes are tested mainly on animals before their use for human beings.

5. Homeopathy provides lasting cure. It enhances health and aims at well being rather than diminishing illness and absence of disease. Allopathy philosphy is that absence of disease is health.

6. There are number of diseases which are labeled as 'surgical', where homoeopathy works curatively and can avoid surgery except where tissue changes have occurred, or where there are congenital abnormalities.

7. Cheaper than allopathy

now james give them credit. It does do all those things IF the inital condition is dehydration and its better than renal failure

Haha, good post Asguard. :D:D

And Malik, post some actual evidence for once dammit.

Dr. Nancy Malik,

As you have failed, on every account (other than those already given to you) to provide any evidence to support these assertions, they are beginning to sound much more like a religious mantra rather than any sort of rational opinion.

~Raithere

No shit.

Nancy Malik:

You just repeated your previous claims. Why bother?

What are you a doctor of, by the way?

1902 P.Jousset investigated the effects of silver nitrate up to 25c on mycelium. He found significant results in their weights, finding that the silver nitrate stunted growth. (reported by Gabriel Bertrand) “The Extraordinary Sensitiveness of Aspergillus Niger to Manganese.” Comptes Rendus Academie des Science; 154, 616, 1912

1906 Boericke and Tafel made an unusual observation of the emanations from a high dilute of radium bromide (30c), to photograph a picture of the outline of a key. (Tafel’s Jottings, 1906.)

1928 JUNKER, Hermann The Effect of Extreme DIlutions on Microorganisms Phluger’s Archiv fur die Gesamte Physiologie, 219, pp 647-672, 1928

1923 Lilli Kolisko, Physical and Physiological Demonastration of the Effect of the Smallest Entities. Der Kommende Tag, A-G Verlag, Stuttgart, 1923 pp. 1-10

Dr.

Unless we can reference the studies themselves there's no way to validate them. Simply posting references to studies of unknown value doesn't help.

~Raithere

(edit) It appears as if these references came from here (http://johnbenneth.wordpress.com/about/) but there's still not enough information.

1902 P.Jousset investigated the effects of silver nitrate up to 25c on mycelium. He found significant results in their weights, finding that the silver nitrate stunted growth. (reported by Gabriel Bertrand) “The Extraordinary Sensitiveness of Aspergillus Niger to Manganese.” Comptes Rendus Academie des Science; 154, 616, 1912

1906 Boericke and Tafel made an unusual observation of the emanations from a high dilute of radium bromide (30c), to photograph a picture of the outline of a key. (Tafel’s Jottings, 1906.)

1928 JUNKER, Hermann The Effect of Extreme DIlutions on Microorganisms Phluger’s Archiv fur die Gesamte Physiologie, 219, pp 647-672, 1928

1923 Lilli Kolisko, Physical and Physiological Demonastration of the Effect of the Smallest Entities. Der Kommende Tag, A-G Verlag, Stuttgart, 1923 pp. 1-10


Oh, wonderful! References from the first quarter of the LAST century!! That sure gives you a lot of credibility for your claims - NOT!!

Ok have some recent studies rgarding research in homeopathy

Bruno Brigo, and G. Serpelloni, "Homeopathic Treatment of Migraines: A Randomized Double-blind Controlled Study of 60 Cases," Berlin Journal on Research in Homeopathy, March 1991, 1,2:98-106).

Jennifer Jacobs, L. Jimenez, Margarita, Stephen Gloyd, "Treatment of Acute Childhood Diarrhea with Homeopathic Medicine: A Randomized Clinical Trial in Nicaragua," Pediatrics, May 1994, 93,5:719-25. This randomized double-blind study involving 81 children was conducted in Nicaragua in cooperation with the University of Washington and the University of Guadalajara. The results showed that, the individualized homeopathic medicine showed clinically and statistically significant improvement in the children’s diarrhea, compared to the children treated with placebo. Children that received homeopathic medicine recovered from infection 20% faster than the children treated with placebo. The children who were more sick reacted to the homeopathic treatment in a spectacular manner. In total the study used 18 different homeopathic medicines selected on an individualized basis according to the symptoms of each child.

Hi Nancy,

I recently asked you in what discipline your Ph D was awarded, and whether you could refer me to your dissertation. Knowing this and the name of the university in question could help me to take your claims more seriously. Can you oblige me ?

Myles

Hi Nancy,

I recently asked you in what discipline your Ph D was awarded, and whether you could refer me to your dissertation. Knowing this and the name of the university in question could help me to take your claims more seriously. Can you oblige me ?

Myles
Hhhhhhhaaaaaaaa. Why are yo so worried about my credentials? I don't want you to take me seriously.

I have not done Ph.D but BHMS, a regular full time 5.5 year medical degree that's neceesary to be awarded Ph.D and to get a license from Govt. of India to practice homeopathy in India. And my thesis was on NOSODES. But still I would say don't take me seriously.

Hhhhhhhaaaaaaaa. Why are yo so worried about my credentials? I don't want you to take me seriously.

I have not done Ph.D but BHMS, a regular full time 5.5 year medical degree that's neceesary to be awarded Ph.D and to get a license from Govt. of India to practice homeopathy in India. And my thesis was on NOSODES. But still I would say don't take me seriously.

It's clear you don't want to be taken seriously; so much is evident from your posts.

Is your medical degree in allopathic medicine ? Nosodes remind me of nostrums which were popular in the Middle Ages. If you wish to use the title Dr., I suggest you are under an obligation to declare what your field of expertise is.

Ok have some recent studies rgarding research in homeopathyYou're still referencing articles, not the studies. Do you have any of the studies? Here's the best information I can find on what you referenced:

I don't think this fist one is the same study but a similar study by the same group.

Both the homeopathy and placebo groups had reduction in attack frequency, pain intensity and drug consumption, with a statistically non-significant difference favouring homeopathy. Migraine diaries showed no difference between groups. The neurologists' trial evaluation showed a statistically significant reduction in attack frequency in the homeopathy group (P= 0.04) and non-statistically significant trends in favour of homeopathy for pain intensity and overall evaluation.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

This scheme depended on a family observer's answers to questions from an "experienced homeopathic practitioner." The article purports to show a statistically significant difference favoring the treatment group over the controls. The report has faults of 1) purpose, 2) method, 3) diagnosis and treatment selection, 4) results interpretation, and 5) authors' editorial comments. The reported difference between treatment and control groups are of dubious significance. This article argues that the study's conclusion that homeopathy is effective for childhood diarrhea is unwarranted.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/abstract/96/5/961?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=homeopathy&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Even if we assume the best results are accurate and ignore the repeated null effect trials this is very thin evidence.

~Raithere

Is your medical degree in allopathic medicine ? Nosodes remind me of nostrums which were popular in the Middle Ages. If you wish to use the title Dr., I suggest you are under an obligation to declare what your field of expertise is.BHMS = Bachelor of Homoeopathic Medicine and Surgery

What Homeopathic Surgery is I'm still trying to find out. From what I can tell so far it's regular surgery practiced by a homeopath but the only reference I could find was written in 1855. Looks to be an amusing read, even though I only scanned the preface.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=homeop;idno=AKK5242

~Raithere

You're still referencing articles, not the studies. Do you have any of the studies? Here's the best information I can find on what you referenced:

I don't think this fist one is the same study but a similar study by the same group.





Even if we assume the best results are accurate and ignore the repeated null effect trials this is very thin evidence.

~Raithere
Thin or thick . Is it evidence or not?

BHMS = Bachelor of Homoeopathic Medicine and Surgery

What Homeopathic Surgery is I'm still trying to find out. From what I can tell so far it's regular surgery practiced by a homeopath but the only reference I could find was written in 1855. Looks to be an amusing read, even though I only scanned the preface.

http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/text-idx?c=homeop;idno=AKK5242

~Raithere
Let you explore more about BHMS. And let me see how close you come to know it.

have you given up on our debate?

have you given up on our debate?

She cannot debate because she has nothing to support her claims.

In truth, her form of "medicine" has exactly the same efficacy as witch doctors and practitioners of voodoo. Really.

Thin or thick . Is it evidence or not? Without being able to better analyze the study or read critiques of it, it's impossible to tell. But even if the study is methodologically and statistically accurate the population (68) is far too small to draw any strong conclusions. At best it might indicate that further research is warranted. The problem is that the study doesn't stand alone. You'd have to have some large studies with some very strong results to overcome all the null result studies that are out there.

Let you explore more about BHMS. And let me see how close you come to know it. I tried but I can't find anything informative regarding homeopathic surgery. The best information I found regarding BHMS is here:

http://www.ngu.ac.in/Academic/homeopathic/bhmssyllbus.htm

I will say that I find this comment disturbing, "Hahnemann's Organon of Medicine is the high water mark of medical philosophy."

Here's a link to it in case anyone wants to take a look for themselves:
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/organon.html

As to why, here's an example:

"Whilst paying attention to those circumstances (§ 5) the physician needs only to remove the totality of the symptoms in order to cure the disease.
If all the symptoms be eradicated, the disease is always cured internally also."

This is not only is demonstrably false, but shows that homeopathy is intrinsically symptom oriented.

I found this interesting reference as well, HOMŒOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA:
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/index.htm

~Raithere

Without being able to better analyze the study or read critiques of it, it's impossible to tell. But even if the study is methodologically and statistically accurate the population (68) is far too small to draw any strong conclusions. At best it might indicate that further research is warranted. The problem is that the study doesn't stand alone. You'd have to have some large studies with some very strong results to overcome all the null result studies that are out there.

I tried but I can't find anything informative regarding homeopathic surgery. The best information I found regarding BHMS is here:

http://www.ngu.ac.in/Academic/homeopathic/bhmssyllbus.htm

I will say that I find this comment disturbing, "Hahnemann's Organon of Medicine is the high water mark of medical philosophy."

Here's a link to it in case anyone wants to take a look for themselves:
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/organon.html

As to why, here's an example:

"Whilst paying attention to those circumstances (§ 5) the physician needs only to remove the totality of the symptoms in order to cure the disease.
If all the symptoms be eradicated, the disease is always cured internally also."

This is not only is demonstrably false, but shows that homeopathy is intrinsically symptom oriented.

I found this interesting reference as well, HOMŒOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA:
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/index.htm

~Raithere

Good information - thanks.

Yes, it's nothing but a scam that preys on people with little scientific (and medical) knowledge and understand. And of course there ARE patients and "doctors" who actually believe it works. There are also a large number of people who believe in other totally foolish things as well.

I mentioned witch doctors and voodoo earlier. There was an article in the JAMA or NEJM about two or three years ago that compared homeopathy with both witch doctors and voodoo on the basis of the efficacy of each one. It was little surprise that all three had practically identical results - indicating that any improvement was simply a result of psychological influence rather than anything medical or "other-worldly." Therefore it's rather obvious that not one of them is any better than the other two - and that alone should tell anyone ALL they need to know about homeopathy!

Oh - and incidentally, none of them had any effect whatsoever on things like cancer, AIDS or any bacterial or viral infections.

Without being able to better analyze the study or read critiques of it, it's impossible to tell. But even if the study is methodologically and statistically accurate the population (68) is far too small to draw any strong conclusions. At best it might indicate that further research is warranted. The problem is that the study doesn't stand alone. You'd have to have some large studies with some very strong results to overcome all the null result studies that are out there.

I tried but I can't find anything informative regarding homeopathic surgery. The best information I found regarding BHMS is here:

http://www.ngu.ac.in/Academic/homeopathic/bhmssyllbus.htm

I will say that I find this comment disturbing, "Hahnemann's Organon of Medicine is the high water mark of medical philosophy."

Here's a link to it in case anyone wants to take a look for themselves:
http://www.homeopathyhome.com/reference/organon/organon.html

As to why, here's an example:

"Whilst paying attention to those circumstances (§ 5) the physician needs only to remove the totality of the symptoms in order to cure the disease.
If all the symptoms be eradicated, the disease is always cured internally also."

This is not only is demonstrably false, but shows that homeopathy is intrinsically symptom oriented.

I found this interesting reference as well, HOMŒOPATHIC MATERIA MEDICA:
http://www.homeoint.org/books/boericmm/index.htm

~Raithere


I feel glad that you tried to find about Homeopathy.

Boerick Materia Medica is a popular book among physicians. It also contains a short repertory.

My thesis was on Mental Picture of NOSODES

In India we have only degree level courses in Homeopathy now. Earlier (till around 1995) we have diploma level courses also.

Organon contains the guiding principles of Homeopathy. Homeopathy follows the Hippocrate's "First Do no Harm"

BHMS Graded degree means students who pursue medical degree in Homeopathy after diploma in homeopathy

BHMS Direct degtree means students who purse medical degree in Homeopathy after 12th class.

Study they self, if you drink hemlock you will die, but if you eat a daisy you will not. The earth has made chemical compounds and as such has more than likely made many of modern medicines. You have shown no such proof to disprove. Proof must be shown, my proof is that the medicine asprin originated in the bark of the willow tree and was chemically compounded by chemists to make the pill we now know. So in fact modern medicine existed in a natural form before chemists did.

homeopathy=NHS voodoo. NHS=death by superbug. Here... we choose to die at home instead. or go private health care.