Some believe that sex changes should be paid for by insurance companies and medicare, but isn't it nothing more than a cosmetic surgery, or is a psychological disorder that can only be cured with hormonal implants and surgery?
-Dan

Hmmm... interesting question... I think it really is more of cosmetic surgery because I tend to tie in the desire to become the opposite sex with the same fetish that women or men have to become more of their respective sexes (i.e., breast implants, "male enhancement")

Because if you don't, the desire to change can be so strong, that people go to more risky places to have it done, and that can be bad for their health. It's so rare, that insurance companies should pay for it, it's not like it will bankrupt them. The angst from not being able to get it done is bad for the nation, it could force people to raise the money illegally.

Because if you don't, the desire to change can be so strong, that people go to more risky places to have it done, and that can be bad for their health.

So why should the rest of us give a shit?? Are we all supposed to be "Thy Brother's Keeper" for every-fuckin'-one on the fuckin' planet?? Damn, that attitude pisses me off to no end! :)

Baron Max

Obviously basic human decency is ruled out with you Baron. So how about penny wise and pound foolish? An otherwise healthy, happy person who has a good paying job is so desperate to make their body match their mental image that they resort to illegal and unsafe surgery. The operation is botched, and they end up being treated at taxpayer expense in a public hospital. Perhaps they end up disabled from the complications, and now have to live on public assistance. Or, after running up many thousands of dollars in the intensive care ward, they die. Resulting in an untold amount of lost potential revenue to the state.

Many transsexuals live on the streets (after being thrown out by narrow minded parents) and support themselves by prostitution. Some have even used prostitution to pay for gender reassignment surgery. Is this how a sane and just society treats people?

Why should I pay for YOUR invasion of Iraq?

well, apenidx removals should be covered by the government before sex changes. although some money does have to go towards mental health, rodney hide and don brash could suer use some of that before they go trying to cut taxes

Obviously basic human decency is ruled out with you Baron.

No, ...but FORCED human decency is!! If you, with such a doo-gooder heightened sense of human decency, want to pay for someone's sex-change operation, please, please do so, but don't FORCE me to do it. And by using my tax dollars, that's precisely what ye're doing ...FORCING me to pay for it. I don't like that.

Many transsexuals live on the streets ..... and support themselves by prostitution. Some have even used prostitution to pay for gender reassignment surgery.

Good for them! People should always work and save their money for the things that they want. Prostitution is a good, steady, profitable job.

Baron Max

Prostitution is a good, steady, profitable job.

Yeah, good one Baron. :rolleyes:

Aside from the drugs, crime, violence, exploitation and disease, prostitution is a good job.<P>

So why should the rest of us give a shit?? Are we all supposed to be "Thy Brother's Keeper" for every-fuckin'-one on the fuckin' planet?? Damn, that attitude pisses me off to no end! :)

Baron Max
Why should anyone give a shit about you? Build your own damn bridges, highways, and stop signs then, generate your own electricity, and if you should ever get hit with a hurricane or a fire, well, that's just God's will, tough shit.

It should be evaluated on a case by case basis, but uninsured by default.

Fetishes aren't the only reason one might choose to have the operation (two-sexed,hormonal problem, etc)

Having a sex change is as natural as homosexuality.

And because it it is just a natural part of life we should all be happy to pay for it.

Don't the future look great?

Why should anyone give a shit about you?

Well, I don't think they should! I'm nothing to most of the people on Earth, there's virtually no reason for them to care for me.

And that's just the point ...if everyone would just concern themselves with ONLY those that they know and love and want and need, then everyone on Earth would be well cared for. But, no, you, and people like you, want everyone to care for everyone else ....and that usually means that no one cares for anyone! (...except they SAY they care! ...which ain't the same thing, is it?)

Build your own damn bridges, highways, and stop signs then, generate your own electricity, and if you should ever get hit with a hurricane or a fire, well, that's just God's will, tough shit.

So you equate those issues with sex change operations??? ...LOL!

Baron Max

...if everyone would just concern themselves with ONLY those that they know and love and want and need, then everyone on Earth would be well cared for.
So, your recipe for a compassionate society is selfishness? Give me a break. I was trying to make a point, we all chip in to make life better for everyone (I'm talking about the US), and that includes infrastructure, and institutions like firefighters, but medical insurance isn't even a government guarantee. You could make the argument that solving a person's personal medical needs make society better for everyone, since we can't just stay in our gated communities all the time. I would support taxes to pay for people's sex change operations, but that's not even the issue. we assume these people have insurance already, so they are paying for this service, why shouldn't they get treatment for a condition that isn't just cosmetic for them? It's not vanity, but a deep psychological need, not unlike getting a wart removed, which I assume is paid for by insurance. What other services are paid for by insurance that aren't life threatening? Cancer? If it's benign, why take it out?

Why pay for a breast prosthesis after mastectomy if it's just cosmetic? Because women have a deep psychological need to feel whole. That's not very different than the few people that suffer from feeling they have been born the wrong sex.

So, your recipe for a compassionate society is selfishness? Give me a break. I was trying to make a point, we all chip in to make life better for everyone...

I don't think I was advocating being selfish at all! In fact quite the contrary ...if all people took good care of those that are close to them, we'd not have ANYONE who wasn't well cared for, would we? And in so doing, I'd not have to give any of my money to YOU or YOUR loved ones .....you'd be taking good care of them, right? If one of YOUR loved ones wanted a sex change operation, YOU pay for it ....why make me do that when I don't even know, let alone love them?! It makes no sense.

There's a bit of the ol' "Mind your own damned business!" in that, but it's not such bad advice, is it? Why should you mind MY business? That part I ain't figured out yet!

Baron Max

First of all, i agree, cosmetic surgery in any case shouldn't be insurance-covered when that money can go to a person with real problems ("I think i'm supposed to be a woman" compared to "I think my kidneys are going to fail and I'm only 10").

Baron max, that same philosophy you mentioned is why you'll give your neighbor a car cause he wanted it real bad, but you don't give a damn about a starving child thousands of miles away in Africa, who could actually use the charity. That's probably not your opinion on THAT situation, who doesn't get a little weepy when they see a care.org commercial, but i'm throwing your idea of "take care of those close to you" back at you. It creates isolationism, leading to nasty things like poverty. Unfortunately, though this idea shouldn't be advocated, it is pretty much a solid part of human nature. That's life...

While on the subject of global effects, some say overpopulation is becoming a problem (i don't subscribe, but that's just me). Perhaps our money going into homosexual cosmetic surgery would help advocate homosexuality, reducing the number of child-bearing peoples, lowering the birth rate! Wouldn't that make a great psy-fact: the natural human macro-social responce to global overpopulation is to start turning homosexual...

...but i'm throwing your idea of "take care of those close to you" back at you. It creates isolationism, leading to nasty things like poverty.

No, I don't think so. For one thing, you're assuming that the "someone" that we care for and are willing to help is someone close in miles, that's not necessarily so. I.e., I care for a person in Russia who I met in the Army over 30 years ago ...I'd be perfectly willing to help him if he were in need. That surely isn't isolationism.

A manufacturer in California, who uses raw material from a guy in Mexico, would, by necessity, be "close" to that man. And that would also lead to helping him in his hour of need. You might say that's selfish, but isn't all charity somewhat selfish? ...people throw money into the cups so they can say that cared, so they can feel good about themselves (even if they only gave a penny!).

But I'll also say that isolationism doesn't LEAD to "nasty things like poverty". I am curious how you came to that conclusion?

I think one of the issues that's difficult for people to grasp is that, while we, the United States, sent billions to the tsunami victims, millions of our own citizens were and are suffering from poverty and disease and lack of housing and lack of schools. If we EACH were to help those close to us, the world would be a better place. We have people right here who are so proud of sending money to the tsunami effort, but can't see and/or refuse to help those only a few miles away!! And we call that charity? We call that helping those in need? No, it's media frenzy and the selfish, feel good attitudes.

You help your friend Joe, I'll help my friend Mike, ....and if everyone did it, the world would be a much better place and by far more friendly.

Baron Max

Baron max, that same philosophy you mentioned is why you'll give your neighbor a car cause he wanted it real bad, but you don't give a damn about a starving child thousands of miles away in Africa, who could actually use the charity.

No, not at all. I wouldn't have to worry about "giving a damn", because I would know that someone else in Africa would already be taking care of that starving child. See? You're assuming that I'm the only one capable of helping that kid, and that's patently false ...it's also a way of making people feel bad so they'll give money to someone thousands of miles away, yet won't help someone right in their own neighborhood!

Baron Max

Since this is something that is an individuals choice, but something that is not needed to live, then I would think that those who want it done pay for it themselves.

by that you are assuming that there are enough people who are capable of giving help,look at how wealth is distributed throughout the world and even in western society.it doesnt work like that.and what about orphans?people without friends?

Some believe that sex changes should be paid for by insurance companies and medicare, but isn't it nothing more than a cosmetic surgery, or is a psychological disorder that can only be cured with hormonal implants and surgery?

I do not believe society should pay for anything but essential surgery, and then only when the person in question is a contributing member of society.

:m:

Funny isn't it that if you go to poorer nations you won't find people there wanting to "transform" themselves into another person with operations. I just wonder why billions of people are content as they are in those poorer countries .

because when you give people excess luxuries, they haev no real problems to worry about and either meddle in other countries affairs, or complain that they haev it bad.

because when you give people excess luxuries, ...

It always bothers me when someone says "...when you give..." people luxuries, etc. Just who "gave" them all of that? Didn't they have to work for it somehow? Or did the government just "give" all of it's citizens those luxuries?

Baron Max

I do not believe society should pay for anything but essential surgery, and then only when the person in question is a contributing member of society.

:m:

so you'd be happy to pay for braces,to get your wisdom teeth taken out,to get ingrown toenails fixed?

It always bothers me when someone says "...when you give..." people luxuries, etc. Just who "gave" them all of that? Didn't they have to work for it somehow? Or did the government just "give" all of it's citizens those luxuries?

Baron Max
no.,we dont have to work hard at all.me for instance,ive always been an average/good student,ive worked (not particularly hard) in summer jobs,and havent done all that much at uni.,however as soon as i leave it would be relatively easy for me to get a job which will pay in about an hour what it would take 1/7th of the population of the world about two weeks to make.and i still wont be working that hard.

Kenworth, where did I say anything about working "hard"?

And even so, you didn't answer my question: Who is "giving" anyone all of those "excessive luxuries"?

Baron Max

...a job which will pay in about an hour what it would take 1/7th of the population of the world about two weeks to make.

But the other populations of the world also pay less for their necessities ...food, housing, etc. And that's not much different to various regions of a nation where the costs of living are high, but the pay scale is also higher.

Baron Max

Kenworth, where did I say anything about working "hard"?

And even so, you didn't answer my question: Who is "giving" anyone all of those "excessive luxuries"?

Baron Max

the goverment is,my parents get something like £50 a month benifits per child,i only have to pay £1000 tuition a year to go to university,if i dont want to get a job i can get £55 a week for sitting on my ass (more if i move out of home) etc etc

But the other populations of the world also pay less for their necessities ...food, housing, etc. And that's not much different to various regions of a nation where the costs of living are high, but the pay scale is also higher.

Baron Max

it doesnt scale that much,a second hand car in africa is not £2

so you'd be happy to pay for braces,to get your wisdom teeth taken out,to get ingrown toenails fixed?

Yes.

Especially since it means those with excessive physical defects are penalized, thus encouraged not to breed.

End social welfare also, except for job-loss insurance socialized.

:m:

...,if i dont want to get a job i can get £55 a week for sitting on my ass (more if i move out of home) etc etc

???

Baron Max

I wonder how one of you MEN would feel after sleeping with a man that has had a sex change? :rolleyes:

???

Baron Max


unemployement benifit,£55 a week,more if you dont live at home,rent paid,no council tax.

Funny isn't it that if you go to poorer nations you won't find people there wanting to "transform" themselves into another person with operations. I just wonder why billions of people are content as they are in those poorer countries .
That's not true, look at Thailand, look at Brazil.

Yes.

Especially since it means those with excessive physical defects are penalized, thus encouraged not to breed.

End social welfare also, except for job-loss insurance socialized.

:m:


ten to one you are a fat bitter geek,and you would withdraw your ideas as soon as one of them adversely affected you.

I wonder how one of you MEN would feel after sleeping with a man that has had a sex change? :rolleyes:

pretty pissed off i hadnt been told,then annoyed,then a bit wierd,then pragmatic,then horny.

ten to one you are a fat bitter geek,and you would withdraw your ideas as soon as one of them adversely affected you.

What does this have to do with the argument in question?

:m:

What does this have to do with the argument in question?

:m:

because as i said if the things you promote adversly affected you,you would do a u-turn in a second.

Obviously basic human decency is ruled out with you Baron. So how about penny wise and pound foolish? An otherwise healthy, happy person who has a good paying job is so desperate to make their body match their mental image that they resort to illegal and unsafe surgery. The operation is botched, and they end up being treated at taxpayer expense in a public hospital. Perhaps they end up disabled from the complications, and now have to live on public assistance. Or, after running up many thousands of dollars in the intensive care ward, they die. Resulting in an untold amount of lost potential revenue to the state.

You criticize Baron Max for allegedly lacking "basic human decency", but then base your argument on potential costs of taxpayer money and lost revenue to the state?

The two obvious questions:

1) If it was proved that it was less costly for taxpayers for insurance companies to not cover sexual reassignment surgery, would you then argue that insurance companies shouldn't cover this procedure?

2) Do you think that insurance companies should cover other surgeries that could be used when one's body doesn't match one's mental image? For example; breast implants for women who think their breasts are too small, hair implants for self-conscious bald guys, dental/orthodontic work for people who think their teeth should be straighter and their smile brighter, etc.? They're all examples of people not looking the way they think they should.

How much are you paying for MY sex change operation? I am not having one, but I get the impressions that you don't realize YOU are probably paying pennies for this surgery. Of course that's not the issue.

The issue is about sexuality and disabilities. I don't know if you view people who are trans-genered as disabled, but I do. In that they feel they are supposed to be a different sex for their entire life. If that's not a physical handicap that needs to be fixed, not sure what is.

If an employee of a company wants to use THEIR insurance to help pay for the operation/medicine then I'm fine with it. As someone who is gay myself, I can relate to the fact that some of us are a lot different and unique!

Perhaps our money going into homosexual cosmetic surgery would help advocate homosexuality. . .

Woah, wait, what the fuck? "homosexual cosmetic surgery"? What the hell are you talking about, here? That's a bit like calling Native-American totem worship "Nigger religion" you've really sort of missed the mark here.

First off, there's a huge difference between homosexuals and transsexuals, one is not necessarily the other. Transsexuals are people who experience a deep feeling of gender dysphasia, feeling that they were born as the wrong gender and that to be comfortable with themselves they need to fix that problem. It's not a sexual fetish, it's a mental disorder and gender re-assignment surgery can be looked at as being a lot more than just cosmetic. It's not like a botox injection, it's not about vanity it's about sanity!

Also, don't imply that homosexuals want to be the other gender, this simply isn't true. I realize that the stereotypical homosexual male is a flamey lisping faggot who acts like a woman, but you've got to realize that that's more TV/Hollywood than anything else. Many homosexuals take great pride in their gender, some even to the point of being a bit sexist. Some of the most macho men out there are gay, trust me on that one. Some simply don't feel that normal gender roles and expectations of male thuggery don't necessarily need to apply to them being that everyone seems to expect that they should act like limp wristed flamers anyhow. It is simply not the case that all or most homosexuals want to be more like the opposite gender.

but don't FORCE me to do it. And by using my tax dollars, that's precisely what ye're doing ...FORCING me to pay for it. I don't like that.

I know that as usual you've probably got your head so far up your ass that you're not even listening, but wasn't the suggestion that medical insurance companies cover sex-change operations? How did this issue turn into your insecurity about people wanting your money? Are you paying taxes to insurance companies now?

It's always gotta' be about you, doesn't it? You're nothin' but a damned bleeding heart, everything's such a God damned tragedy for you. It must be so hard having the whole world out to get ya.

I know that as usual you've probably got your head so far up your ass that you're not even listening, but ...

That wasn't very nice to say, was it?

How did this issue turn into your insecurity about people wanting your money? Are you paying taxes to insurance companies now?

You really don't know?? I mean, really??

My dear Mystech, it's a simple matter of economics ...if insurance companies start having to pay for more and more such bullshit medical expenses, then the insurance premiums will go up. When insurance premiums go up, that means that MY insurance premiums go up, too. Now do you get it?

Or did you think that insurance companies pay medical bills for people from money they just have laying around?

It's always gotta' be about you, doesn't it? You're nothin' but a damned bleeding heart, everything's such a God damned tragedy for you. It must be so hard having the whole world out to get ya.

That wasn't very nice to say, was it?

But in answer, yes, it's always, ultimately about the individual ....ALWAYS! And tho' you might not believe it, I'm an individual, so it ultimately IS about me and my money and my life.

I don't think the world is out to get me, never have. In fact, it seems to me that most of y'all here DO feel that way ....while I seem to just go with the flow. Like, if the USA wants to pass the Patriot Act, I just shrug and go on about my business because I know it won't affect me one little bit. Whereas y'all just get all upset and nervous and hypertense and yell and bitch and moan and scream and ....all that stuff that means very little to anyone except you.

BUT ....when y'all suggest something that takes MY money, then its about me and I usually respond.

Have a nice day. :)

Baron Max

The issue is about sexuality and disabilities. I don't know if you view people who are trans-genered as disabled, but I do. In that they feel they are supposed to be a different sex for their entire life. If that's not a physical handicap that needs to be fixed, not sure what is.

How did you reach the conclusion that this is a physical disability rather than a mental one?

Would you consider anorexia (not the weight loss itself, but the distorted self-image that drives anorexics to keep losing weight) to be a phyisical or mental disorder?

First off, there's a huge difference between homosexuals and transsexuals, one is not necessarily the other. Transsexuals are people who experience a deep feeling of gender dysphasia, feeling that they were born as the wrong gender and that to be comfortable with themselves they need to fix that problem. It's not a sexual fetish, it's a mental disorder and gender re-assignment surgery can be looked at as being a lot more than just cosmetic. It's not like a botox injection, it's not about vanity it's about sanity!

If transgenderism is a mental disorder, shouldn't the treatment be some sort of counseling rather than surgery?

If transgenderism is a mental disorder, shouldn't the treatment be some sort of counseling rather than surgery?

It is, heavily over the course of years and years. It's not like someone just wakes up one day and figures "Hey time to change my gender, that'd be really cool". Neither will most doctors simply say "Hey, so long as you're payin' for it I'll give you whatever you want!" they've got that nasty Hippocratic oath. If you ain't got a Diagnosis from a psychiatrist saying that this is probably the best step for your mental health at the very least it ain't happenin'.

Seriously, the ignorance that I find regarding this topic is sometimes shocking. There's a wealth of information on gender dysphoria and transgender disorder and all that on the internet, I suggest doing a little research sometime.

My dear Mystech, it's a simple matter of economics ...if insurance companies start having to pay for more and more such bullshit medical expenses, then the insurance premiums will go up. When insurance premiums go up, that means that MY insurance premiums go up, too. Now do you get it?


The rest of the world can burn! I want my comphy slippers! haha.

The extremely low number of these procedures that are preformed would be very unlikely to effect your premiums. If you're worried about insurance rates, then you'd do better to start an anti-drunk-driving campaign than to get all uppity and curse those evil evil bastards who are trying to cheat you out of your money by having problems of their own that they also happen to be paying insurance for!

Max, you're not doing much to help change my mind that you've got a fixation on the idea that everyone is out to screw you and so you've gotta' make sure you screw 'em first.