Why no one steps forward

Q_Who

07-10-03, 02:03 AM

Why keep them comfortable, someone will just offer them more?
It would be best to keep them captive, comfortable, but captive.
Governments and people want power (one good psychic spy is all they need).
People hate deviation from the norm.... or everything (their is at least one hate group for everything)
Some religions may saint them and/or see them as a prophet (much like Mohommid or Jesus). Not every religion but one sect of one religion might. Another might see them as a demon (goes against God's will).

One psy spy could topple a nation. If one nation knew the location of every enemy weapon platform, every tank, every troop deployment and knew exactly what the enemy was going to do before they did it. They could rule the day in every conflict. (and they wouldn't even have to risk deploying a bunch of spies)
A military doesn't have to fear the psy person but they need to fear the people controlling them.

If an enemy nation had psy spies than they would be neutralised or captured to defend national interests.

Also,
If they could see the future they would also be able to advise on how governments and people should act to achieve success in every aspect (including war).
If a person can remote view they are the ultimate spy (every government would want them) they could know an entire nation's secrets without leaving a room.
If a person could move objects the government would want them to train soldiers or study them like a lab rat until they could reproduce and harness their powers (it is a fact, governments want better weapons, at any cost… espionage, murder, black-market, kidnapping anything to get the plans to another nation's toy)

Think of the unspeakable power one could gain be reproducing and exploiting psy..

And don't call my notions pulp comic book stuff. If an unknown power was up for grabs everyone would want a piece (no matter the lengths).

PacingYourName

07-10-03, 03:00 AM

I am leaning towards the nonsense side because. If i had these powers I would be either rich,famous, or powerful. No one with unique abilities is unknown. I refuse too believe that there are psychic people but just dont show themselves.:rolleyes:

bratok

07-10-03, 06:23 AM

I'm learning it little by little ( by Norbekov, mostly ), but the first thing I found out is that no one would be able to have any of this powers, UNTIL he would change his point of view on life. Until he would rise above the crowd, be able to forgive and love everybody they way they are.

Later, when he will have the powers, he won't be able to use them for anything "eveil", but only for good and creative purposes.

If ( WHEN! ) I will have the powers... maybe I won't yell on every corner about them or also won't try prooveing them to eveybody on the street, but I certainly won't keep then a secret. As how can the government ( or anybody else ) jail or kill a person that is able to heal, move out of his body, make everybody blindly agree with him, has 6th and 7th sense, etc...

Thanx

one_raven

07-10-03, 06:26 AM

If you were psychic, and someone was planning on kidnapping/killing/whatevering you, wouldn't you know about it in advance, and just not be there? :bugeye: :confused:

bratok

07-10-03, 07:07 AM

Originally posted by one_raven
If you were psychic, and someone was planning on kidnapping/killing/whatevering you, wouldn't you know about it in advance, and just not be there? :bugeye: :confused:
Sure, that's the 6th sense, to know ( feel ) what's gonna happen. Also there's the 7th sense ( forming events ), your Egregor ( guardian-angel ) and god know what else...

Halcyon

07-10-03, 11:43 AM

Originally posted by PacingYourName
No one with unique abilities is unknown. I refuse too believe that there are psychic people but just dont show themselves.:rolleyes:

A whole lot of people who have contributed to the psi testing taking place have chosen to remain anonymous for the exact reasons discussed in this thread. You can refuse to believe it all you want, doesn't make it any less true.

As for the government's reaction to psychics, just check out the CIA's published reports on Operation STARGATE. About a decade or two after Russia began making huge leaps in proving the scientific basis of PSI, the CIA began their own investigations. Unfortunately, they didn't have half the funding teh russian scientists did, so they couldn't afford even half of the same equipment the russians had found to be useful in these studies, and they didn't use any of the control techniques already established by russian scientists. It's hard to see how it would not have come out as a failure, but miraculously, it didn't. They did have success, but due to the malobservance of proper conditions, it was a small success, and so they decided it was no longer of national interest to pursue it. At least that's what they made public....we all know that what theyactually tell us is only a fraction of the story.

As for Spymoose's remark regarding religion: The Catholic Church has come forward and claimed PSI events in the name of the church. Investigations of Stigmata have proven that the event is psychosomatic, that anyone capable of that depth of hypnotic trance can make stigmata occur by will. This is by definition a PSI event. The Catholic Church has claimed some of these "miracles," as a divine message and proofs of the faith.

Q_Who

07-10-03, 12:23 PM

@one_raven

You can't be everywhere at once. If they try for multiple objectives at the same time ex family members in different places they could overwhelm you and cause you to submit.
I mean you look into the future and see kidnapping attempts are about to be made on 10 members of your family and 2 of them are on a camping trip with no phone.... you are cooked.

Or they could keep you running until you become tired of the chase and give up.

Eventually you would make a mistake that would trip you up.
(that is the human way)

bratok

07-10-03, 02:13 PM

I mean you look into the future and see kidnapping attempts are about to be made on 10 members of your family and 2 of them are on a camping trip with no phone.... you are cooked. :D ... a person, with powers enough to interest the government or anybody else serios enough to try kidnapping his family, would be able to do much, much more then just see what might happen to his family mambers in the future.

Norbekov wrote that his teacher was arrested once ( this was in the Soviet times, mid 70s, I suppose ). Two officers came to the teachers yard, who as about 95 then, and asked him to come with them. They locked him in a separate cell and, when they came back in a few hours, they saw the back wall of the cell ripped open. Behind it, the teacher was peacefully drinking tea on a meadow with some celebraties ( actors, singers, even generals ) of that time :eek: . Both officers were forced to join the picnic, later one of the generals escorted the teacher back to his home. When the officers came back to their mind, they saw that the cell wall was back in place, as well as the usual buildings behind it, where the meadow was ( i.e. never was, as well as the general and other people ). One of the officers ended in the nut-house.

Halcyon

07-10-03, 03:04 PM

That's very similar to the tests Stalin conducted with Wolf Messing. Stalin ordered Wolf to be taken to an office inside the kremlin and posted three sets of security guards ordered not to let him leave. He didn't have an exit pass. They all sat and watched him as he walked right out of the building, but they didn't see him, they saw a government official in his place, the image was projected from him into their minds. He also did the same thing in reverse, showing up in Stalin's dacha at Kuntsevo. That was liking asking him to walk into fort knox. But projecting the same image, he walked right past all the staff(each of whom were members of the secret police), and a platoon of bodyguards, and right into his office. Stalin conducted another test, where Wolf had to walk into the moscow gosbank and walk out with 100,00 rubles. Wolf just walked up to the cashier and handed him a torn piece of paper from a school notebook. The cashier looked at the paper and instead saw a check, cashed it, and Wolf walked right out with all the money.

bratok

07-10-03, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Halcyon
That's very similar to the tests Stalin conducted with Wolf Messing... I heard of Messing, remamber that his powers appeared somehow by themselfs or he was even born with them. Suppose that's why he used them so "playfully" and unwisely. Later he even held "shows" in theaters, where someone from the audiance had to write something on a paper and was supposed to "feel/read/telepate" it from that person's mind. One he said like "Stop thinking... he won't make it! Concentrate on what you have written!" :) . My mother was on one of his show.

http://bf2001.narod.ru/foto/messing.jpg

I suppose it isn't "right" when someone just gets this powers for nothing, as then he won't be able to value them and use then for a right purpose :rolleyes: ...

Edit:
http://bf2001.narod.ru/s_005.htm
It says that Wolf Messing found his powers while takeing a train without a ticket, as a little kid. The conductor asked him for his ticket, but he passed him a piece of paper and emotionaly wanted the conductor to believe that it's really a ticket... that he did. So his powers appeared.

Halcyon

07-10-03, 04:12 PM

Well, he did contribute a whole lot to the study of PSI, he didn't just squander it. He was tested by Frued and Einstein as well, significantly impacting freud's belief system. Hitler Also put a price on his head for predicting that Germany would lose the war, forcing Wolf to run to Russia. Anyway, he participated in as well as conducted many successful experiments into the research of PSI. In a way, the shows that he did were a good thing. They raised public awareness of PSI and it's possibilities, and spread interest in researching it.

Your mom was very lucky. I wish I would have had a chance to see him in action. :) Where specifically are you from, Bratok?

invisibleone

07-11-03, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Q_Who
Reality is relative
Who says that our waking moments are real?
What is real?
Do you or I exist?
Are we all characters of your/my mind?
Why are some crazy and others sane?
Should the norm dictate sanity?
If most of the world became schizophrenic would you be insane?

Reality is not a pleasant place. I prefer living in non-existence and on the edge of sanity.

Interesting post, Q. I agree with you somewhat about this. I don't believe we 'know' what 'reality' really is. It is always beyond our grasp. . .Science is on the cutting edge right now, but it still can't explain everything. And now something else happens; a 13.7 billion year old planet (about 4 times older than anything in our solar system) is discovered and everything we 'know' must somehow be changed again. We exist(I am pretty sure about this!), but we are generally misguided about what reality and existence mean. We are all a part of the universe(inherently connected to everything) but apparently most of us don't even realize it. We all appear to be seperate from eachother, even though this seems to defy the logic that all is 'one.' There is much that we still have to learn about life, reality and existence. If there is an objective reality our subjective minds don't seem to help us 'find' it. Still I find such a thing as psychic powers to be utterly absurd! This is probably because of all the fakes everyone knows about! (Miss Cleo, anybody?) lol.

Q_Who

07-11-03, 06:49 PM

The problem is all the fakes.
That is the single largest problem. It is hard to separate money grabs, magicians, con-artists, schizophrenics and the real thing. The only way is to test them all. The problem with this is that it takes $$ and time. It also kills credibility. Some have been found (supposedly) but that is still hard to prove.
In my mind I think the hoaxes like the spotlight and the real people hide from the limelight.

@invisibleone
Reality is what we perceive. Every once in a while the world's reality changes. One century we think humans can never leave Earth and never will. The next we are on the moon. Just think how fast reality changes. Basically reality is organic, it changes and warps as we grow and learn.
So, can you change reality?

@bratok
That was just an example. If a person could focus on a place and a time and see what was going to happen all I thought was it could still be possible to apprehend them.
If they had other abilities than other measures could be taken. Every power has its limits and you don't always have to attack the person directly you could attack; reputation, family, friends, finances, or just keep them on the run. Everyone has a weakness and a breaking point.
By the way, the person does not need to be Superman or Captain America for the government to be interested in them.
(to be interested enough to capture them they would need to be moderately good at psy)

bratok

07-12-03, 02:45 AM

...you could attack; reputation, family, friends, finances, or just keep them on the run... Sorry, but still sounds like kindergarten ;) ...
People with such powers usualy stand high above common valuables, such as money or reputation. Also I'm suppose that the US government is smart enough not to mess ( i.e. try to kidnapp or something ) with such people.

Ertai

07-12-03, 03:59 AM

The government did recrute some psychics for their SPY program

They even searched in the military ranks for people that had such gifts, thet did found some..

Even so, funding such projects the political matters were so disturbed by "psychic programs" that eventually they blown the project down after a few decades..

Anyway we still have some research and pratical use of such phenomena nowadays..

bratok

07-13-03, 02:16 AM

No offences, but if Americans think that Ameirca is the most FREE country, why are they affraid of being kidnapped by their own government, if they do show any unusaual capabileties :confused: ?

Voltaire

07-13-03, 02:33 PM

dude, everyone has psychic abilities. the majority of us humans are not aware of it or simply don't care. though if one were to present onelself as having powers one would be doomed for the rest of life. some people don't tolerate this kind of stuff, probably because they are afraid.

Q_Who

07-14-03, 01:33 AM

I'm not just talking about America.
If a person who goes public with, lets say real telepathy every government would try to recruit them. First it would be in a peaceful manner ($$$). If they went for x-nation's offer, the other nations would be at a disadvantage and so would try other means of attaining the 'weapon'.
This is no where near short of kidnapping.
I mean if Russia builds a super torpedo than Canada, Britain and the US would be after the plans (which they were). The nations would spy (kill, blackmail, bribe, steal) to attain the weapon. In the case of a revolutionary undetectable human weapon the nations involved would no doubt up the ante.

*Remember the Cold War*
*Think of Espionage Today*
You do anything to know your enemies… imagine a spy that only needs to walk by an officer to know his plans
Wouldn't you do anything to have him on your side?
:bugeye:

bratok

07-14-03, 02:34 AM

Originally posted by Q_Who
I'm not just talking about America.
If a person who goes public with, lets say real telepathy every government would try to recruit them. First it would be in a peaceful manner ($$$). If they went for x-nation's offer, the other nations would be at a disadvantage and so would try other means of attaining the 'weapon'.
This is no where near short of kidnapping.
I mean if Russia builds a super torpedo than Canada, Britain and the US would be after the plans (which they were). The nations would spy (kill, blackmail, bribe, steal) to attain the weapon. In the case of a revolutionary undetectable human weapon the nations involved would no doubt up the ante.

*Remember the Cold War*
*Think of Espionage Today*
You do anything to know your enemies… imagine a spy that only needs to walk by an officer to know his plans
Wouldn't you do anything to have him on your side? :bugeye:

Yes, I remamber some time ago a forein diplomat bought secret super-torpedo plans from a Russian scientist who invented it :( ... the diplomat was extradicted and the scientist, after seating about 6 month in jail, got a few years of parole.

Suppose telepathy won't be the only think the government would be interested in. OBEs would be much more usefull. If one would be able to step out of his body, "fly" to the enemies bunker and listen to all their secret plans :D ... while some people do publish books about their OBE possibileites.

Voltaire

07-14-03, 02:59 PM

not only that but the various religious groups in these places would go crazy. they would accuse the person as a freakin' heretic and excommunicate them from their organizations (especially the damn Catholics). People never want to feel unwanted, detested, and excluded and if the certain individual that uncovers him/herself, he/she will unfortunately suffer exclusion. one would feel like a zoo animal in which its species were thought to be extint but now it is obvious they are not. If you have special powers I reccomend you don't show them... yet. The time is coming where it will be all right and you don't have to be condemed for something that was given to you since birth. ;)

Voltaire

07-14-03, 03:07 PM

sorry i'm talking so much shit but I usually read only the first, original post so my answers are kind of outdated :eek: . however, :bugeye: i personally think they are valid anyways since they are relevant to the topic.

ammorag

07-21-03, 11:36 PM

I don't remember who, but someone posted something about all that stuff about the gouvernement wanting to kill off the psychics was a bunch of comic book junk... well, obviously it's highly thought of here... that could be why no one wants to step forward... couldn't everyone think they might be dissected?
Namárië,
A.M. Morag

bratok

07-22-03, 02:16 AM

On the other side, many people have stepped forward... maybe not everybody had taken them seriosly. Robert Monroe, for example.

ChristianPsychic

07-30-03, 01:40 PM

I am a religious person (a Christian) who believes in psychic powers. I think that they just lie in our sub consciousness and have to be trained. Slowly, anyone can learn psychic powers. I don't believe they have to do with the forces of the universe or anything. They are just a God-given ability like seeing and smelling. The thing is, not all Christians see it the way I do. So I would say keep it secret.

Voltaire

07-30-03, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by ChristianPsychic
I don't believe they have to do with the forces of the universe or anything. They are just a God-given ability like seeing and smelling.

oh boy, dude, everything is interconnected. I suggest you read about the chakras and what it has to do with the universe. i'm not dissing your religion, i used to be a Christian and although i think jesus is an awesome teacher, the whole deal about the merciless, jealous God does not convince me. i learned that one should not place limits on oneself just because this "God" might throw lightning at you for showing your true essence. Besides we are all God, and sooner or later these overly religious people of the world will become a little bit more open minded.

janeelsa

07-31-03, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by VitalOne
If you really did have these powers, would you keep it a secret or would you tell everyone you saw that you had the powers? I used to hear my friends' thoughts in my head and I'd say, "I was just thinking that!" without realizing it was not I who was thinking it, but they. I eventually learned not to say stuff like that when it dawned on me what was happening. I don't try to read people's minds, that's an invasion of privacy as far as I'm concerned, but when they project and I receive, I can't help it. So, to answer your question, no , I don't tell anyone it's happening.

janeelsa

07-31-03, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Voltaire
we are all God The original Voltaire never spoke truer words.

janeelsa

07-31-03, 11:59 PM

Originally posted by one_raven
If you were psychic, and someone was planning on kidnapping/killing/whatevering you, wouldn't you know about it in advance, and just not be there? :bugeye: :confused: not necessarily. look at that knowledge like water in a pool. you're swimming in the shallow end. you get into the deep end and tread water for awhile then go back to the shallow end. when you were in the deep end you didn't come into contact with ALL the water molecules, just some of them.

bratok

08-10-03, 03:47 PM

Here's how M.S. Norbekov ( norbekovusa.com ) described by no one steps forward in his latest book:

Two monkeys sitting in the zoo.

Monkey #1 - You know, there are those "big" monkeys, then can walk on their two feet, move in space by getting into some big, metal boxes... they can communicate with each other by dialing a number and talking into those small plastic boxes, you know... they can do lots of things!

Monkey #2 - No way, if there would be this kind of monkeys, why none of them would steps forward and show their powers to us? Or why won't they make us happy by giving us a BIG pile of bananas?

Godd Luck :D !

Halcyon

08-19-03, 11:25 AM

transmaterial

08-20-04, 05:24 PM

If you do have powers and you want to step forward be smart about it.
Amen to that. Stigma is a bitch, let me tell you.

What do others think? Could this be the/a reason no one wants to prove their abilities?

Have you considered the possibility that many people have done exactly that, but the protectors of a certain status quo ("we all have only five senses," "wait until you die to find out everything else") have actively suppressed the information? Think about the fact that the Church of Rome has gone to great lengths to hoard and suppress religious documents that contradict their own party line about God and Jesus.

Now, the CIA has been investigating psionic abilities ever since they realized that the Russians were way ahead of them (back when the Cold War was in full gear). Americans had a stigma about believing in any sort of "hocus pocus," and US intelligence went with this stance for a while, until they realized that the Russians were making progress in unlocking the secrets of psychic ability.

Remote Viewing is one of the long-term CIA studies that eventually got declassified, but who knows what else they found out? Keep in mind that this agency tends to favor centralized intelligence--that is to say, centralized into the hands of a few, who can then claim a monopoly on that information. Mind you, these are the same people who have engineered the assassination of various world leaders, the overthrow of democratic governments by fascist regimes all through Central America, and so on... by history, they have few scruples, and do not follow ANY nation's rules of conduct, even those of the United States.

Now, there is another side to your question: put simply, some people have come forward with psychic abilities, which were studied and confirmed. The thing is, unless someone walks on water, it will never make the cover of Time or Newsweek; it would upset the "consumer comfort zone" that most news organizations pander to.

Parapsychology journals have been publishing such research for years. Unfortunately, there is a kind of scientific orthodoxy that is afraid to consider any of this research valid; they think that it would hurtle all their hard-won empirical thinking back to the days when people thought the Earth was flat and leeches were a cure for everything.

So, until enough people catch up to the idea of a broader human potential (dare I say, "a critical mass"), Western societies will stay in our little comfort zone; there will be nothing new under the sun in science unless it involves tiny quanta or massive stellar bodies, the New Agers will be endearing but deluded, and people who read about developing their psychic powers will be gullible.

PS: Did anyone else notice that The Celestine Prophecy, one of the most significant cultural phenomena of the 20th century, has practically disappeared from the public eye since 1996? It's almost enough to make you wonder....

transmaterial

08-20-04, 05:37 PM

I hate to double-post, but I wanted to add a couple of links:

Articles by Charles Tart (http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles1.cfm), a foremost expert on scientific corroboration of psychic ability.

Debunking Common Skeptical Arguments Against Paranormal and Psychic Phenomena (http://www.psicounsel.com/wwudebunk.html). Long, but comprehensive. Distinguishes "cynical" scientists from "skeptical" ones.

And, just to show how far stigmatism can take things... "Are you psychic?" (http://www.aservice.org/psychic/psychic.html) This fascinating individual once practiced black magic while on hard drugs, but has reformed. He now believes that "Psychology has contributed greatly to the chaos of hedonism, secularism, and nihilism in our modern society," and that martial arts are on par with a Satanist cult, among other lucid observations.

transmaterial

08-20-04, 05:39 PM

http://www.transmaterial.com/frames_etheric.htm

(This one is by yours truly.)

(Q)

08-20-04, 07:36 PM

From your website:

Vital energy is a life force that is alluded to in mystical cosmologies throughout the world. The basic theory is as follows:

*Along with the energy of the human body, we are made up of an animating force which doesn’t follow all the same rules as physical matter.
*Every living being has an energy field, or aura, filled with this life force.
*The aura is located in a different plane of reality than the nervous system, although the two are closely intertwined.
*We do not usually see vital energy, but everyone senses it. With conscious intention, we can learn to perceive it more clearly and consciously influence it.
*People exchange vital energy all the time, sharing the essence of their feelings and ideas by connecting their own auras to the auras of other people. In the more intense moments of energy exchange, people experience what many call psychic abilities.

Have you any evidence whatsoever to support these extraordinary claims?

Crunchy Cat

08-20-04, 08:08 PM

From your website:

Have you any evidence whatsoever to support these extraordinary claims?

I second that question.

Jolonar

08-21-04, 05:37 AM

I have the evidence that you are seeking.....

If anyone else has psychic powers, or knows someone that does, please, PM me. I would like to talk to you...

Regards,
J.

(Q)

08-21-04, 09:57 AM

I have the evidence that you are seeking.....

Lets see it then.

transmaterial

08-21-04, 11:45 AM

Have you any evidence whatsoever to support these extraordinary claims?

I got two questions out of this, so I'll answer them both. The first is, "can I cite evidence that many people believe in this cosmological model and this view of the human potential?" Yes, there is tons of information out there from many parts of the world. So, there is the ontological "social construction of reality" angle.

I suspect that what you're really asking is, "do I have evidence that some variation on clairvoyance (or clairsentience) is possible?" Like so many people, if you mean first-hand anecdotal evidence, then sure, I've had some personal experiences. If you want me to shoot lightning bolts at Geraldo Rivera on national TV... sorry, I can't deliver those kind of results.

There are a number of scientific studies which suggest that people are affected by various types of electromagnetic fields, including finely tuned EM field that originates in the heart muscle and extends beyond the body. This field changes its frequency and rhythmical fluctuation intervals depending on a person's emotional state, among other variables.

Mainly, I have known a lot of otherwise sharp, lucid, and discerning individuals who believed that they had empirically explored an innate ability to perceive energies (in themselves and others) produced by thoughts and emotions. After corroborating this with my own exploration, I have concluded that some degree of telepathy and empathy are possible.

In addition, scientific studies over the last few decades have laid bare many previous assumptions about the fabric of space and time. Discoveries such as dark matter and zero-point energy, or the sometimes bizarre behaviors of photons, neutrinos and twin-particle systems, validate that reality may consist of interconnected layers, or dimensions--in contrast to Materialists' notion of a giant post-big-bang electromagnetic melting pot.

Anyone has the right to doubt these claims, but in my experience, few of the skeptics have tried to intensively practice Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Pranayama Yoga, or any other widely practiced method for perceiving and utilizing subtle energies. Maybe they're too smart for it, or maybe they're afraid to let go of internal anchors that don't actually define their ultimate capabilities. It could just depend on the person.

(Q)

08-21-04, 02:54 PM

There are a number of scientific studies which suggest that people are affected by various types of electromagnetic fields, including finely tuned EM field that originates in the heart muscle and extends beyond the body.

Perhaps, but this in no way is an explanation or evidence to your claims, which at this point shall remain empty.

Discoveries such as dark matter and zero-point energy, or the sometimes bizarre behaviors of photons, neutrinos and twin-particle systems, validate that reality may consist of interconnected layers

I've never seen bizarre behavior in photons so I have no idea what you're talking about. And again, nothing you've said supports your claims.

Maybe they're too smart for it, or maybe they're afraid to let go of internal anchors that don't actually define their ultimate capabilities.

Or maybe they know its pure bunk.

So, you've managed to provide nothing more than your own unfounded opinions, as I suspected. Thanks.

transmaterial

08-21-04, 04:32 PM

You're a nasty one, aren't you? I've been reading your posting history; your M.O. is to go around trying to convince people that you are some kind of logic maestro. Your words ooze with contempt. I suppose you really think that this attitude affirms your objectivity, but you are mistaken; it keeps you in a state of tunnel-vision, where you end up with the same assumptions every time, convincing yourself that you "won."

I hope you realize that there is nothing original about this methodology: you fit a very specific profile, which I have come across in many other forums. Different agendas, with the same spiteful approach to discourse.

Here is what I was going for in my post:

1. Establish that energy fields may exist parallel to the known EM spectrum

2. Reaffirm my claim about a widespread consensus that human beings can perceive some sort of energy fields tied to thoughts and emotions. You seemed to be challenging this, among other things.

3. Argue that while anecdotal evidence for psychic ability does not meet a certain standard of proof, it would be callous to ignore such a massive correlation between cultural belief systems.

As for the cross-cultural correlations, Michael Murphy's book The Future of the Body says it all for me. I would elaborate on that, but why bother? You would just plug any research I cite into your narrative and send it back stamped "inconclusive."

Have a nice day.

(Q)

08-21-04, 06:29 PM

I hope you realize that there is nothing original about this methodology: you fit a very specific profile, which I have come across in many other forums. Different agendas, with the same spiteful approach to discourse.

Ah, then you've met other people who actually use their heads who have also questioned your claims and have received nothing other than horsepucky. How nice.

And, most likely they've also told you your claims are unfounded and are little more than deluded opinions. Great.

Have a nice fantasy.

Mr. G

08-21-04, 10:34 PM

transmaterial,
I hope you realize that there is nothing original about this methodology: you fit a very specific profile,...
Um, the rationally empowered?

You know, people able to see things that you can't.

Mr. G

08-21-04, 10:37 PM

I was not plagarizing Q.

Really, I wasn't.

I would have thought of it first, even if he didn't say it before me.

Really, I would have.

Q being the unorignal thinker you need him to be to fit your own telling M.O..

Mr. G

08-21-04, 10:45 PM

1. Establish that energy fields may exist parallel to the known EM spectrum
What exactly do you mean by 'parallel to'?

It's already amply established that co-existing in Nature with electro-magnetic fields are strong-nuclear, weak-nuclear and gravitational fields.

Please provide sources confirming the ubiquitous 'imaginary field'.

2. Reaffirm my claim about a widespread consensus that human beings can perceive some sort of energy fields tied to thoughts and emotions. You seemed to be challenging this, among other things.
Ah, the Irrationality Field.

Old news.
3. Argue that while anecdotal evidence for psychic ability does not meet a certain standard of proof, it would be callous to ignore such a massive correlation between cultural belief systems.
Ah, the "Let's Pretend" effect.

Didn't we automatically design that effect out of each and every one of our science lab experiments in school, and all our real world experiments, too?

Let's all wonder why.

Crunchy Cat

08-22-04, 01:24 AM

phlogistician

08-22-04, 06:52 AM

Anyone has the right to doubt these claims, but in my experience, few of the skeptics have tried to intensively practice Tai Chi, Kung Fu, Pranayama Yoga, or any other widely practiced method for perceiving and utilizing subtle energies.

Wrong again. I'm a complete skeptic, and fairly well versed in martial arts, and one of my best friends is a kung fu instructor.

The secret of Chi? Practice. Nothing more. It's all quite scientific really, breathing, blood flow, angles, balance, anticipation, training and self belief. Nothing mystical. This is the essence of Zen. The koans used to illustrate the ideologies don't have to be true to have value, they are like Fables. Same goes for Chi. It doesn't have to be a real force for it to work. It is a way of concentrating your mind on the task in hand, a way of psyching yourself up for a feat. These days, we call it 'sports psychology' but in essence, it's the same thing.

Supposed feats of extraodinary prowess, which are often claimed to be superhuman, mystical acts by the perpetrators, are known as 'vagabond moves' to trained kung fu practioners. They are hard to perfrom, without doubt, they do take skill, but there is always a trick to them, which makes them look far harder than they are. They are used to dupe the gullible.

And this is the trick. See beyond what you are seeing, question things. This is the secret to an open mind, not trying to explain what you see, but working out what you _didn't_. Remove yourself from the spectacle, and view things from a 3rd party perspective, and lots of things lose their mystical qualities.

duendy

08-22-04, 07:54 AM

i am curious though. i agree with you, i am not for mysticism and 'superhumanness'...ancient Indigenous people who understood animaism, were rather Naturalstic

but let me ask you...how does Zen undrstand 'ghosts'?

transmaterial

08-22-04, 12:36 PM

Q,

I was drawing attention to your generally spiteful tone, not to the content. I had conceded that there is not enough proof at this point for science to accept the existence of something like chi. In fact, I conceded that very point in my web site--incidentally, in a paragraph that directly followed your excerpt.

To quote:

"For the time being, the theory of vital energy is relegated to religious and mystical belief systems. No one has proposed a theory of human sentience that subsumes biology; at best, there are a bunch of scattered clues that don’t yet add up to a comprehensive secular metaphysics."

To me, your claim of being "rationally empowered" clashes with the fact that you put your points across through infantile jibes at others' intelligence. There are some "rationally empowered" people who are so confident in themselves that they don't rely on a smug, elitist persona for self-esteem. Maybe that's how you feel powerful, but I wouldn't try to cast all scientists in your mold. Some are emotionally mature, too.

Phlogistician, as a case in point, gave a straightforward argument, with supporting details, and didn't resort to the obnoxious goading tactics that are the stock in trade of your ilk, Q. I may not agree with all of it; for instance, most of the martial arts adepts I've met actually believed the subtle-energy cosmology behind their techniques. However, the delivery at least carries a sense of respect for my ability to consider different viewpoints.

By the way, Q, how often do you concede a point in your role as a logic-marauder? If the answer is "barely ever," it could be indicative of a) A superior level of comprehension 10 times out of 10, or b) a pathetic dependency on affirming your own self-worth through win-win scenarios. Maybe that's why you tend to attack the weakest link in others' arguments instead of the strongest supporting evidence.

Mr. G: What kind of field holds a twin particle system together? If you know, please tell me. Yes, I know of strong and weak nuclear force, and I imagine that whoever discovered them had to tolerate many people who sneered, "Strong and weak what? It's called gravity, dumbass!"

Where would science be if people never considered unorthodox possibilities, or gave credence to enticing--but still inconclusive--evidence? With some puzzles, you can see a pattern forming before the last pieces fit into place.

For anyone who hasn't entered into this thread with a preconceived agenda, here is a link on coherent human energy fields which appear to transmit emotional content:

The Electricity of Touch: Detection and Measurement of Cardiac Energy Exchange Between People (http://www.heartmath.org/research/research-papers/Touch/electricity_of_touch.pdf), by R. McCraty, M. Atkinson, D. Tomasino, W.A. Tiller.

(Q)

08-22-04, 01:01 PM

I was drawing attention to your generally spiteful tone, not to the content.

I was drawing attention to the lack of content in your claims. The void persists.

Where would science be if people never considered unorthodox possibilities, or gave credence to enticing--but still inconclusive--evidence? With some puzzles, you can see a pattern forming before the last pieces fit into place.

Science is exactly where it should be, ignoring those with extraordinary claims and no evidence.

Sorry if I've exposed your website as complete horsepucky, but I have little respect for those who propagate such nonsense.

And of course, attacking me personally for exposing that crap does little to support said crap. All it does is support the notion there is NO content to your claims, o' delusional one.

transmaterial

08-23-04, 05:39 PM

"Horsepucky," "nonsense" and "crap," huh? Thanks, because I was waiting for this to feel like a REAL debate.

There is a whole "other world" of discourse out there, Q, though you can't seem to see it... there is a magical Shangri-La, where people give each other the benefit of a doubt, look for common points of understanding, avoid redundant arguments in favor of challenging ones, and refrain from emotionally loaded cheap shots.

You did not, in fact, "win." You claimed that I had certain intentions and assumptions, and I disproved your claim. I never said that I had absolute proof of chi/prana/vital energy, proof that can be verified in controlled studies on command. As far as I know, nobody has that proof, and I have believed this for years. In fact, you took a quote from my web site out of context, just to make that erroneous claim.

I believe that human beings possess 6+ innate "senses," sure. Think what you will of me on that score; just save a bit of scorn for the hundreds of millions of people around the world, and the thousands of human cultures, that have believed this as well. I admit it--we're even bigger morons than those folks who said "the earth revolves around the sun," or "if you sail across the Atlantic you won't fall off the edge of the world." At the time, all the self-proclaimed authorities on reality knew that those folks were full of horsepucky and didn't give them a second thought.

I never claimed, however, that chi's existence has been proven to the satisfaction of the scientific community. Remember logic, Q? "If it's raining, the ground must be wet, but if the ground is wet, it isn't necessarily raining." Ring a bell?

Here is what happened: I had already conceded your main argument from the start, but your ego was in full gear, so you thought you'd pull out your logical superpowers and show me who's boss. Having already "lost," and not being to proud to admit it, I took the opportunity to pick apart your spiteful style of communication.

Hopefully, this one recommendation will stick: all of these "deluded" parapsychology buffs whom you so eagerly deride might actually listen to a point or two if you could dispense with the insecurity-driven emotional attacks. You don't have to give up your delusions of grandeur, Q; just be respectful for a change.

(Q)

08-23-04, 06:30 PM

"Horsepucky," "nonsense" and "crap," huh? Thanks, because I was waiting for this to feel like a REAL debate.

There must be REAL content before one can enter into a REAL debate - creations from ones imagination is not content for debate, nor is it REAL.

just be respectful for a change.

See above post re: respect.

And once again, the void persists.

transmaterial

08-23-04, 07:10 PM

You forgot, avoid redundant arguments in favor of challenging ones.

I'm done beating this dead horse; I hope that you enjoy all of your future one-way arguments and the semblance of self-esteem they provide.

LordAza

08-24-04, 05:56 AM

Q,

I am just curious on your take of psychic powers. Is your claim that they don't exist or just that this particular guy has no case about them?

(Q)

08-24-04, 09:56 AM

I'm done beating this dead horse

You haven't even started yet. Where is the evidence for your claims on your website? If you have no evidence, how do you justify making those claims? What is the purpose of those claims and your website?

Is your claim that they don't exist or just that this particular guy has no case about them?

Quite simple really if you've been following along. After inspecting the website, a list of claims was questioned for evidence, whereupon the author has done everything since to sidestep providing evidence. Instead he has decided to attack me personally. Of course, I could care less about the attacks but it does show the author cannot support his own claims.

And it appears this is not the first time his claims have been questioned. Most likely, the inquisitors were also rewarded with personal attacks instead of evidence.

Transmaterial is just another in a long list of those who who provide nothing more than empty expectations.

transmaterial

08-24-04, 11:09 PM

(sigh)

EM energy transfer between hearts via touch:
http://www.heartmath.org/research/research-papers/Touch/touch-introduction.html

>>awaiting redundant response

Crunchy Cat

08-25-04, 12:25 AM

(sigh)

EM energy transfer between hearts via touch:
http://www.heartmath.org/research/research-papers/Touch/touch-introduction.html

>>awaiting redundant response

Nice article. Is this supposed to prove a claim you made? If so, which one(s)?

(Q)

08-25-04, 10:22 AM

Sorry, but the link does not work for me.

Could you please copy/paste the appropriate material and show us how it relates to your claims?

phlogistician

08-26-04, 05:00 AM

OK, the article is really, really flawed. So there are measurable changes in people's ECGs when they are touched, but to jump to this;

"The data presented here clearly show that when people touch or are in proximity, a transference of the electromagnetic energy produced by the heart occurs."

Because they falsely define energy;

"If we define energy as the capacity to produce an effect"

But that is just wrong. Everyone has heard of the 'Placebo Effect' but nobody ever uses the term 'Placebo Energy'.

They have noticed an effect (duh!) but not measured the cause, so their conclusion is meaningless.

DeeCee

08-26-04, 07:02 AM

On the subject of 'theraputic touch'

Of course it works!
It's a form of communication between social organisms.
When the girlfriend is crying you give her a hug, she feels better.
There's no magic about it. Posting links to articles that reference pseudoscientific studies from journals long since dead means exactly fuck all.
here's a quick tip. Go and check out articles on physiological reactions to stress.
Eek!
Could it be that hugging and touch reduce stress?

Discovery of the century? Not.
Dee Cee

(Q)

08-26-04, 09:28 AM

Today the link works, thanks.

The research described here was not designed as a comprehensive, rigorous study to yield results to be subject to statistical analysis, and is not intended to be presented or evaluated as such a study.

awaiting redundant response

*sigh* (sigh)

Crunchy Cat

08-26-04, 10:11 AM

Just thought that I would mention what energy really is. It's uncompressed
matter... just as matter is compressed energy:

E=MC^2 <----- That's matter uncompressed by a factor of speed of light squared.

transmaterial

08-26-04, 06:38 PM

I came to these parapsychology forums quite recently--not intending to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, nor expecting to find such proof, but seeking information. There is often information related to a topic which bears on the topic, yet does not, in itself, entirely prove a certain hypothesis. We can add that to Crunchy Cat's Science 101 archive, along with nuclear force and the theory of relativity (by the way, CC, I'm still waiting on an answer to the question "what energy field produces the mirroring behavior of twin particle systems?")

I believe things that have not been conclusively proven according to any study I know of. Guilty as charged, though I never made a claim to the contrary. If you'll review the foundations of science, the lack of ultimate proof does not prove that I am wrong, for there are no absolutes; it means only that scientists should rightly consider my beliefs less probable than explanations with more supporting data.

Thus, I restate that there may be human senses other than the commonly accepted five, and that there is a wide and enduring consensus to this effect. I am interested in any information that speaks to these possibilities, but I am not getting paid to track it all down, archive it, and present it to people who will almost certainly deny its validity anyway.

I mentioned that I had encountered people like Q before; I wasn't referring to a "pseudo-science" board, but to a political board. This was an alternate news site which presented information that is widely distributed in other countries, but essentially blacklisted in the US press (Columbian trade unionist assassinations, corporate pollution and exploitation of third-world labor, congressional decisions that curtail domestic civil rights, etc).

The forum had been infested by right-wing white supremacists who goaded the resident activists with constant racist slurs and stereotypes about "liberals," and litanies about the wisdom of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. There was little or no reference to the actual message threads being discussed. I challenged the baiters, and they responded with many posts along the lines of "nyah nyah, you're a moron."

A similar ideological bum-rush seems to have happened in this corner of SciForums.

My main question is, to those of you who give no credence to beliefs like this, why are you even here? There are lots of people out there who are interested in topics that fall under the general heading of parapsychology. There are also a lot of people who scoff at the whole genre. Why can't the latter camp start their own threads debunking various topics, and leave a little bandwidth for we "believers" to share information, no matter how worthless it seems from the context of your own worldviews?

This is an honest question: why waste your time and others'? Even if you are absolutely right about certain beliefs being delusional, you aren't going to "get through" to anyone unless you communicate some sense of respect for their intelligence. If you have no respect, like Q, then why the fuck are you trying to argue these points in the first place? It is a vicious cycle that proves nothing but your dependence on ego-aggrandizement.

The most logical thing, in my opinion, would be to let people share information, however they define it. If you want to critique it, leave the "nonsense will never be proven" attitude at the door, and address the more challenging arguments along with the weakest links. Maybe people like me will keep investigate all of these worthless scraps of data until we realize that there is nothing substantial to be found. What you are doing isn't logical calisthenics; it's mental masturbation.

Was there a single fact in the Electricity of Touch article that made you say "hmm.. interesting?" If presented with information that would challenge your stoic presumptions, I doubt that most of you would notice. Be honest with yourselves, people: you go into each parapsychology thread with the same agenda, and without a shred of doubt that you will emerge victorious.

Crunchy Cat

08-26-04, 11:13 PM

We can add that to Crunchy Cat's Science 101 archive, along with nuclear force and the theory of relativity (by the way, CC, I'm still waiting on an answer to the question "what energy field produces the mirroring behavior of twin particle systems?")

When was this question asked? Anyhow, I am not sure I understand the
question. If you could ellaborate that would be great.

My main question is, to those of you who give no credence to beliefs like this, why are you even here?

It's not this specific belief. It's all of them. Accepting assertions as being
true without considering supportive / contradictory evidence is quite frankly
a self-chosen form of mental handicap. Anyhow, I am here because I like
and have lucid dreams. In fact the nearest I can tell, I have had dream
content that nobody else has had to date and I am trying to understand
why that may be. Additionally, I like to examine the psychology behind belief
to gain a better understanding of where it comes from. So far I have
hypothesized that it is an evolutationary trait that was beneficial in the past
few millenia. I also like to take the initiative to allow people to prove fantastic
claims as well as point out charletons.

Why can't the latter camp start their own threads debunking various topics, and leave a little bandwidth for we "believers" to share information, no matter how worthless it seems from the context of your own worldviews?

Why don't we put all the stupid people on one side of the globe and and
the smart folks on the other?

This is an honest question: why waste your time and others'?

Same reason as you. Everyone who posts cares about something regarding
the thread.

Even if you are absolutely right about certain beliefs being delusional, you aren't going to "get through" to anyone unless you communicate some sense of respect for their intelligence.

It's not intellectual respect that should be the concern. It's just respect in
general. People will become defensive otherwise and are not likely to hear
whats being said.

What you are doing isn't logical calisthenics; it's mental masturbation.

Even your dick is a muscle. If you exercise it, it will remain strong. Same
goes for the brain.

Be honest with yourselves, people: you go into each parapsychology thread with the same agenda, and without a shred of doubt that you will emerge victorious.

There has been a few threads where I offered my money, time, resources,
etc. for the purpose of allowing someone to prove a fantastic claim. Certainly
I would not not be helping people otherwise.

(Q)

08-27-04, 12:11 PM

I came to these parapsychology forums quite recently--not intending to prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, nor expecting to find such proof, but seeking information.

Let's review your website and see if that statement is valid:

Part I reviews different perspectives on whether psychic abilities are possible. It is intended for both skeptics, and people who believe in psychic abilities but are interested in learning more about the science behind them.

Western scientists must open their minds to the insights of mystical disciplines from around the world, finally admitting that they are not the ultimate authorities on what is humanly possible.

Conversely, mystics from all cultures must learn to embrace scientific data as a truth unto itself which can coexist with spiritual knowledge, rather than fearing it as a force that seeks to usurp faith and tradition.

Personally, I’m not holding my breath. The theory (Vital Energy) doesn’t hold a lot of sway among scientists, and most people who are charting the psychic airwaves don’t know the first thing about how to measure or quantify what they learn from day to day. Western societies place more stock in the materialist standard of proof (measure, compile data, prove) than firsthand experience (observe, test the observation, prove to oneself).

However improbable, the theory of vital energy does not contradict any of the current data on human biology.

Whatever the “experts” eventually conclude, social acceptance of the theory of vital energy is growing each year. Many people have come to feel disenfranchised with science’s almost ecclesiastical denial of a broader human potential, and in response, are window-shopping for knowledge among nonwestern belief systems.

Seems that on one hand you're trying to persuade others your theory has scientific merit while on the other hand consider science close-minded and in denial of your theory. You even state your theory does not contradict biology.

Unfortunately, you failed to show how your theory has scientific merit on your website hence I asked you to provide the evidence - there should be no problem with that if you do consider your theory to have scientific merit, right?

But you provided nothing in regards to evidence and began personal attacks instead.

If you'll review the foundations of science, the lack of ultimate proof does not prove that I am wrong, for there are no absolutes; it means only that scientists should rightly consider my beliefs less probable than explanations with more supporting data.

You don't need 'ultimate proof,' evidence will suffice. And it is unlikely the scientific method will be discarded in favor of hand-waving.

Thus, I restate that there may be human senses other than the commonly accepted five, and that there is a wide and enduring consensus to this effect.

You may state, restate and then restate again, but unless you can provide some evidence, its all just baloney. And just because others believe in similar nonsense does not make it valid in any way.

I am interested in any information that speaks to these possibilities

The information you seek is not available within the realms of science or reality, so most likely you will find only that speculated by others who believe in the same things.

The forum had been infested by right-wing white supremacists who goaded the resident activists with constant racist slurs and stereotypes about "liberals," and litanies about the wisdom of Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter. There was little or no reference to the actual message threads being discussed. I challenged the baiters, and they responded with many posts along the lines of "nyah nyah, you're a moron."

A similar ideological bum-rush seems to have happened in this corner of SciForums.

So, we ask for evidence and you provide personal attacks and that is somehow an ideological bums-rush? Uh-huh.

My main question is, to those of you who give no credence to beliefs like this, why are you even here?

That is irrelevant.

There are lots of people out there who are interested in topics that fall under the general heading of parapsychology. There are also a lot of people who scoff at the whole genre.

True, and then there are those who wish to understand the difference between what is real and what is not. I, along with many others here, fall into this category. You come along with a whack of extraordinary claims, which I asked you to verify and you could not. So, I can only conclude your claims are not 'real.' Get it now?

Why can't the latter camp start their own threads debunking various topics, and leave a little bandwidth for we "believers" to share information, no matter how worthless it seems from the context of your own worldviews?

By all means, have your fantasies, I could care less.

But don't come here trying to show how your claims are scientific and verifiable, just because you say so. You'll always find those who want evidence. But I suspect you already know that considering you've been down this road before. And it appears you still don't get it.

Even if you are absolutely right about certain beliefs being delusional, you aren't going to "get through" to anyone unless you communicate some sense of respect for their intelligence.

If you make fantastic claims and want us to consider them without a shred of verifiable evidence, then you insult our intelligence, therefore you get zero respect.

If you have no respect, like Q, then why the fuck are you trying to argue these points in the first place? It is a vicious cycle that proves nothing but your dependence on ego-aggrandizement.

I want to learn, as do others. We can't accept your wild claims merely because you say so. In my opinion, it is you who has the ego.

If you want to critique it, leave the "nonsense will never be proven" attitude at the door, and address the more challenging arguments along with the weakest links.

Unless you actually provide a challenging argument, your claims ARE nonsense and will remain so whether you like it or not. Sorry.

Maybe people like me will keep investigate all of these worthless scraps of data until we realize that there is nothing substantial to be found.

And we are helping you in that realization. You should be thanking us.

What you are doing isn't logical calisthenics; it's mental masturbation.

Was it good for you too?

Be honest with yourselves, people: you go into each parapsychology thread with the same agenda, and without a shred of doubt that you will emerge victorious.

The 'agenda' is to ask for evidence to extraordinary claims. I fail to see how this can be considered victorious.

transmaterial

08-27-04, 09:51 PM

Q,

My web site is based upon the following premises:

1. There are human abilities beyond the "five" senses

2. These abilities can be developed, and many cultures have developed methodologies to do so. These methods tend to have an empirical thrust, in that they emphasize consistent, repeated mental and/or physical practice which intensifies the expanded perceptual state in question.

3. Science has not proven these abilities' existence, but may be moving in this direction, through the expanding body of knowledge on previously undetectable types of energy.

4. In lieu of scientific confirmation, belief in #1 and #2 is a matter of personal experience. [Either the abilities exist or they don't; understanding the scientific mechanism behind them would not change this hard reality whatsoever.]

5. For those whose personal experience leads them to believe that metaphysical abilities are possible, there are many disciplines for honing awareness that could help them to develop these abilities.

My main objection was that you inferred an argument I never made: that there is conclusive proof of psychic ability. Maybe you found the language confusing in the last snippet you excavated from my site, but the fact remains that your first excerpt was a quote out of context. My site is not mainly geared toward scientific discoveries, it is a resource for people who practice any method for developing transmaterial awareness.

If you wanted to attack the actual operant assumptions of my site from a Rationalist stance, you would have had plenty to work with. You could have taken the "facilitated hallucination" angle, that people can convince their brains to fabricate all manner of trans-sensory experiences but it is still bunk.

Or you could have taken the "get with the age of Enlightenment" angle, in which millions of people are still lost in primitive delusions and superstitions (including a large part of India) but someday they will all bow to the One Truth of scientism.

Instead you tried to characterize me as someone who claims to have evidence of psychic abilities. You tried to draw me into your usual win-win scenario for these parapsych forums, in which you say "has your claim been proven according to these scientific criteria?" And the person says, "well, no..." and you say "well you're a moron for believing in it!"

Either the 6+ senses are real or they are not. Either millions of Hindus, Tibetan Buddhists, Jainists, Taoists, Sufis, Pagans, Shamanistic peoples (et. al) live in a state of permanent, self-induced dementia, or they are perceiving real things that some other people do not. I agree that science can't explain or confirm what all these people claim to have perceived. This discussion was over before it had begun, because you made a false assumption about me.

So what was your question again? Why are you still here?

transmaterial

08-28-04, 12:06 AM

(Q)

08-28-04, 11:33 AM

My web site is based upon the following premises

I know upon what you're website is based, I took the time to read it, and I posted the claims exactly as they appear, no changes on my part. Anyone can verify that.

My main objection was that you inferred an argument I never made: that there is conclusive proof of psychic ability.

No need to obfuscate the argument, you made claims, I posted them and asked you to back up your claims. You have yet to do so, and you continue to evade that. I never said anything about conclusive proof of psychic ability, those are your words. Stop trying to put them in my mouth.

Maybe you found the language confusing in the last snippet you excavated from my site, but the fact remains that your first excerpt was a quote out of context.

I copied and posted directly from your website, your claims are there for all to see.

My site is not mainly geared toward scientific discoveries, it is a resource for people who practice any method for developing transmaterial awareness.

Are you going to add lying to your current list of achievements here? See above quotes or go directly to your website to see exactly what your website claims.

If you wanted to attack the actual operant assumptions of my site from a Rationalist stance, you would have had plenty to work with.

I'm seeing the written English you're writing there but can only assume you don't understand English.

I'll explain it to you again, you made claims, I asked for evidence. It doesn't get any simpler than that.

Instead you tried to characterize me as someone who claims to have evidence of psychic abilities.

No, I characterize you as someone who can't back up their claims. There are labels for such people, I'm sure you can pick any one of them you like.

You tried to draw me into your usual win-win scenario for these parapsych forums, in which you say "has your claim been proven according to these scientific criteria?" And the person says, "well, no..." and you say "well you're a moron for believing in it!"

More lies? Is that the only way you think you can get out of supporting your argument? Pathetic.

Either the 6+ senses are real or they are not.

You have failed miserably in trying to convince me of that. Are there any other peeps here convinced?

Either millions of Hindus, Tibetan Buddhists, Jainists, Taoists, Sufis, Pagans, Shamanistic peoples (et. al) live in a state of permanent, self-induced dementia, or they are perceiving real things that some other people do not.

Millions of people also believe in gods, so what? Logical fallacies will not support your argument.

I agree that science can't explain or confirm what all these people claim to have perceived.

Then you admit that your claims are worthless and conjured from your imagination?

This discussion was over before it had begun, because you made a false assumption about me.

How is asking you for evidence to support your claims a false assumption?

So what was your question again? Why are you still here?

You know the question and I am here to ask it.

So, any evidence to support your wild claims from your website? Or is it just that which you conjured from your imagination?

Inquisitive minds want to know.

transmaterial

08-28-04, 12:30 PM

"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."

Q, you have spent a good bit of your time asking me to support a certain claim according to certain criteria. I said on my web site (and everyone else would have known this, if you had extended your quote by a couple of paragraphs) that I do not possess said evidence. I said that there is a lot of tantalizing information that does not yet add up to a secular metaphysics, but that these data, when corroborated with cross-cultural ontological studies of beliefs about human perception, may warrant more attention from the scientific community than they currently receive.

I lost, you won... but you can't quit, can you? Believe me, I can identify. May St. Jude smile on you. Why don't we just have a few beers, sing "The Boxer" together and call it a day.

As for the "millions of people believe in gods too" statement, this is a faulty comparison. This type of belief is not concerned with abilities which allow one to perceive one's god(s), at least not in terms of a concrete perceptual taxonomy. Faith takes precedence over a desire for empirical confirmation. If we had been talking about millions of people who believe in an unseen life force based solely on faith, it would be an appropriate example.

I think it's time to cut your losses.

(Q)

08-28-04, 12:55 PM

"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."

hehe - Don't you mean, "failure to provide supporting evidence to fantastic claims?"

Q, you have spent a good bit of your time asking me to support a certain claim according to certain criteria.

Again, no I have not. I have asked you to provide evidence to the claims on your website, that is all. What part of that question don't you understand?

I said on my web site (and everyone else would have known this, if you had extended your quote by a couple of paragraphs) that I do not possess said evidence.

So, you admit your claims are false and unfounded and are merely that which you conjured from your imagination?

I said that there is a lot of tantalizing information that does not yet add up to a secular metaphysics, but that these data, when corroborated with cross-cultural ontological studies of beliefs about human perception, may warrant more attention from the scientific community than they currently receive.

Your claims do not warrant attention from the scientific community because there is no evidence whatsoever to support them. Sorry, but you're barking up the wrong tree. If you can't support your claims, they are worthless. Do you get it now?

Faith takes precedence over a desire for empirical confirmation.

Your claims are based on blind faith just like religion, that much you have made clear, so it is definitely a fair comparison.

If we had been talking about millions of people who believe in an unseen life force based solely on faith, it would be an appropriate example.

We are talking about an individual who has made extraordinary claims of unseen forces. So, it is a perfect example.

I think it's time to cut your losses.

What exactly have I lost?

Quite clearly you are unable to support that which you claim and you are under the delusion that your claims will gain support by attacking me.

Simply admit it - your claims are worthless and were conjured from your imagination.

Everyone else knows that, why don't you?

(Q)

08-28-04, 01:14 PM

Well, I just submitted your website to http://www.crank.net/contents.html . So far, all of my submissions (and there have been many) have made it to their lists.

Let's see how they categorize your website, shall we? :D

Crunchy Cat

08-28-04, 01:40 PM

Either the 6+ senses are real or they are not.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
You have failed miserably in trying to convince me of that. Are there any other peeps here convinced?

Actually Q, I think you know that bats and dolphins have sonar sense,
there are some birds which literally guiding see color spot in their field of
vision as they can detect the poles, and hammerheads use electric impulses
to detect prety. Anyhow, there is no evidence to suggests that humans
have additional senses. That is nothing more than an attractive fantasy.

Crunchy Cat

08-28-04, 02:23 PM

Crunchy Cat:

As for twin-particle systems: I was referring to the phenomenon of quantum entanglement, originally described in Bell's Inequality Principle. Sources:

http://atschool.eduweb.co.uk/rmext04/92andwed/pf_quant.html#Q30
http://www.qedcorp.com/pcr/pcr/epr.html
http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/9707042
http://www.kheper.net/cosmos/quantum_physics/quantum_physics.htm#Bell

...And a critique of Bell's theorem:

http://freespace.virgin.net/ch.thompson1/Papers/The%20Record/TheRecord.htm

I see, and somehow I randomly become accountable for quantum mechanics.
But, I'll go with the flow regardless.

Q: "what energy field produces the mirroring behavior of twin particle
systems?"
A: The question is loaded. The Quantum model has an apprent flaw and
this does not mean that the answer to your question suddently involves
some 'energy field'. The state of things right now is that why the
phenomenon of quantum entaglement exists is unknown. I am sure
over time it will be figured out and the quantum model will be modified
accordingly. I would put $5.00 the understanding the phenomenon
will rely on full comprhension of decoherence.

Anyhow, I have a question. What does this have to do with your claims?
Additionally, in one of my posts above I asked what the original article you
posted was supposed to prove from the list of claims you made. I am still
waiting on an answer for this.

(Q)

08-28-04, 02:25 PM

transmaterial

08-28-04, 03:23 PM

Apologies, CC; I had you confused with Mr. G, who was asking if there is any evidence of energy fields outside of the known EM spectrum. In the two-particle system studies, it appears that energy transmits between the dual components of the particle, allowing one to know what the other is doing. I don't know how it is transmitted, or on what continuum this occurs, but it is energy of some kind. One implication is that there could be energy fields outside of the known EM spectrum.

As for the article I cited, the connection was "coherent human energy fields which appear to transmit emotional content." You may dispute the veracity of the findings, but this was the researchers' conclusion.
____________
Q, my site is fairly new, so I'll take the publicity. As for sharks and birds:

"The shark employs electricity for internal processes, but has the ability to detect small electrical discharges and minute movements in the water by use of electroreceptors found around the mouth. Such ultra-sensitive electroreceptors can also detect body fields generated by homo sapiens and other organisms, where electrical discharges in the salt water may provoke attack. Sharks are known to mistake the smallest electrical signals for life because they are so sensitive: even a five-billionth of a volt may be detected. However, sharks are easily confused by the electromagnetic waves emitted by nuclear subs, to which Hammerhead sharks are attracted, and in response, new submarine designs are being considered to prevent the attraction." (http://members.fortunecity.com/anemaw/shark.htm)

You have another explanation, which focuses on some kind of pressure?

"Bundles of magnetite have been discovered in the brain of zoological specimens the navigate by compass direction, such as birds, bees, fish, amidst others, however it was also found to exist in the human brain in 1992: human brain tissue extracts taken from membranes surrounding the brain and spinal cord (including clustering in the region of the brain where the nose joins the skull) contained crystals of magnetite, although the function of magnetite within humans is still an enigma as it is not sure as to whether humans may detect magnetic fields or not (38). (http://members.fortunecity.com/anemaw/biomagnetism.htm)"

Crunchy Cat

08-28-04, 04:10 PM

Crunchy - bats and dolphins have only 5 senses as well, bats use their ears for 'echolocation' at night while dolphins use their ears and lower jaw. Hammerheads detect changes in pressure. I don't think these or any other animals exhibit more than 5 senses aside from internal senses of pain, balance, thirst, and hunger.

Any takers on this one?

Ahh, I see your point and I agree with what your saying in this context.
My point was that various life forms on the planet have differing ways of
interpreting ("sensing") their environment. If we combine all these methods
of interpertation together we get a value > 5.

Halcyon

08-28-04, 04:14 PM

Current scientific knowledge rests on human beings, and other animals for that matter, having 17 senses so far and counting.

(Q)

08-28-04, 07:46 PM

I don't know how it is transmitted, or on what continuum this occurs, but it is energy of some kind. One implication is that there could be energy fields outside of the known EM spectrum.

Is that something else you've conjured from your imagination?

As for sharks and birds:

I'm not interested in sharks and birds, thank you very much.

Will you be addressing the evidence to your claims anytime soon or should we just write you off as another kook?

(Q)

08-28-04, 07:47 PM

If we combine all these methods
of interpertation together we get a value > 5.

Gotcha.

transmaterial

08-29-04, 12:07 AM

Will you be addressing the evidence to your claims anytime soon or should we just write you off as another kook?

"We?" The way you go on, you'd think I was dealing with the Borg.

I believe that coherent energy fields which contain mental and emotional content transmit beyond the body. I am not required, by any law of man or nature, to accept your implicit assumption that these energies are not real just because scientific measurements do not yet register them. I have stated some of my criteria for belief; you may deride them, but represents your opinion about what "knowledge" really means, not an absolute truth.

This is really a question of one's framework for what defines human knowledge. In your framework, I am deluded; in mine (which has elements in common with many cultures' core paradigms of the human potential), I have experienced distinct sensory quantities beyond the 5 that scientific materialists consider valid. I have explored various methods for enhancing and directing these perceptual states. I have analyzed their different components, tested their continuity and corroborated these perceptions with both mystical traditions from around the world, many other firsthand accounts, and a burgeoning social consensus about what people can really perceive. Oh yeah--and I don't think that the Celestine Prophecy's outrageous global success, or its translation into over 20 languages, speaks to a deep gullibility built into the human psyche. I'm sure you have lots of words for all those ideas, but at this point it might be a bit... redundant?

...In your world, you won, and that's what matters.

Stryder

08-29-04, 06:51 AM

the EPR paradox has been looked at for many years, however I think Einstein already mentioned that the universe doesn't all run to the same clock, that bends within spacetime actually causes the universe to run at different speeds, so it would be simple to say that any such paradoxes are a Doppleganger of the original existant at a different point in spacetime.

It's not extra energy, but more likely the birth of a parallel universe.

(Q)

08-29-04, 10:14 AM

I believe that coherent energy fields which contain mental and emotional content transmit beyond the body.

Yet, none have ever been detected.

The various forms of energy are well understood, can you please tell me which form you refer? Or, what new form of energy have you discovered?

I am not required, by any law of man or nature, to accept your implicit assumption that these energies are not real just because scientific measurements do not yet register them.

True, there is no law against having fantasies. And it appears you have no moral problem with the propagation of disinformation to others.

I have stated some of my criteria for belief; you may deride them, but represents your opinion about what "knowledge" really means, not an absolute truth.

Your so-called 'criteria for belief' is irrelevant as it does not address that which is based in reality.

Science doesn't deal in "absolute truths," but it does deal with knowledge. And knowledge is based on what we understand about our universe, not what we conjure from our imaginations. That is the difference you are unable to discern.

This is really a question of one's framework for what defines human knowledge

Reality defines human knowledge, there is no question about that.

In your framework, I am deluded

Reality is not just my framework, but the framework we all are bound. Your claims are well outside of that framework, hence have no meaning in reality. It's really quite simple.

in mine (which has elements in common with many cultures' core paradigms of the human potential)

Would that be others with similar fantasies?

I have experienced distinct sensory quantities beyond the 5 that scientific materialists consider valid.

What are other sensory qualities exactly? And if what you say is true, then your experience of these new 'sensory quantities' would be a huge scientific discovery and you would earn a Nobel Prize.

I have explored various methods for enhancing and directing these perceptual states. I have analyzed their different components, tested their continuity and corroborated these perceptions with both mystical traditions from around the world, many other firsthand accounts, and a burgeoning social consensus about what people can really perceive.

What are the results of your analyses and tests? I didn't see anything on your website. Will you be publishing these results in a peer-reviewed journal? Can you show me these results? Anything at all?

Oh yeah--and I don't think that the Celestine Prophecy's outrageous global success, or its translation into over 20 languages, speaks to a deep gullibility built into the human psyche.

Sorry, what does that have to do with anything? It doesn't support your claims, if that was your intent. It is just another logical fallacy.

I'm sure you have lots of words for all those ideas, but at this point it might be a bit... redundant?

Yes, I am repeating myself.

One more time - can you support your claims with any evidence?

...In your world, you won, and that's what matters.

Unfortunately, when someone comes along with extraordinary claims and cannot support their claims other than what they can conjure from their imaginations, no one wins. It is another shining example of how reality, rationale and reason are once again tossed out the window in favor of fantasy. It is another black mark on the education system. It is the deceitful propagation of disinformation.

I haven't won because I have failed in helping you understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Crunchy Cat

08-29-04, 11:06 AM

I believe that coherent energy fields which contain mental and emotional content transmit beyond the body.

When dealing with statements using the word 'belief', it is an important
exercise to paraphrase the statements explicitly so their full message
can be easily seen.

PARAPHRASE: "I accept as true that coherent energy fields which contain
mental and emotional content transmit beyond the body even though no
such energy field or phenomenon has been proven to exist'.

Once the message is clear, analysis as to why it even exists is a good next
step. This one is kind of a no-brainer. ESP and empathy are really freakin'
cool ideas and I would looooooove to have abilities like this; thus, the idea
is attractive. Attractive assertions tend to be considered as fact. The
less factual knowledge / critical thinking / understanding of logic a person
posses, the more likely an attractive assertion will be considered as fact
by said person.

...I have experienced distinct sensory quantities beyond the 5 that scientific materialists consider valid...

Cool tell me about them! After this we can consider methods of testing
them.

I have explored various methods for enhancing and directing these perceptual states...

Good, this will make the results of testing them even more conclusive!
You should be very excited that you can utilize a new sense and have
an opportunity to prove it to the world. You stand to make a lot of money
and update the worlds understanding of human physiology. It's a win-win
situation!

I have analyzed their different components, tested their continuity and corroborated these perceptions with both mystical traditions from around the world, many other firsthand accounts, and a burgeoning social consensus about what people can really perceive...
Oh yeah--and I don't think that the Celestine Prophecy's outrageous global success, or its translation into over 20 languages, speaks to a deep gullibility built into the human psyche...?

Be advised, if a billion people agree with an assertion, it does not make it
true; however, such agreement does validate the attractiveness of the
assertion.

Crunchy Cat

08-29-04, 11:11 AM

I haven't won because I have failed in helping you understand the difference between fantasy and reality.

Q, your statement is a very powerful one! It communicates a very important
message with extreme simplicity. Mind if I plagiarize this statment at will :)?

(Q)

08-29-04, 11:29 AM

CC - by all means. :)

transmaterial

08-29-04, 12:18 PM

(Q)

08-29-04, 01:19 PM

pretty much everything that Q just said is represented in the following article

Upon further analysis of Winston Wu's article, we find poor Winston 'pleads a lost cause.' Nice try though.

http://www.skepticreport.com/tools/winstonwu.htm

And I can copy/paste his definition of a true skeptic:

"Typical traits: honest doubt, inquiry and investigation of both sides, considers evidence on all sides and seeing their good/bad points, asking exploratory questions, acceptance of evidence, good common sense, nonjudgmental, seeks the truth"

How have I wandered from this definition?

You both seem to believe that science's current framework defines the absolute truth of the human potential...

That is a lie and was addressed in a previous post - you either did not read the post or chose to ignore it.

you put on a front of cautiously doubting things because they have never been proven

Another lie - I have merely asked you to provide some evidence.

but there is an implicit assumption that science has come so far in exploring human capabilities

That is an assumption made by those who have no idea what science entails.

You can say that I am wrong, that I have no evidence, and it is true within the context you have selected.

The context being reality.

However, you can't dictate whether something exists or not.

But that is exactly what YOU are doing.

You may now dub yourselves arbiters of reality. That doesn't make you right.

I don't know where you got that idea - reality has dubbed itself.

I keep retorting that there are other ways of measuring reality, which are built into the human organism. Then you say, "where is the proof?"

You make those retorts but provide nothing of value. Saying something over and over does not make it true.

If there is ESP, since science has not proven it, the most reliable way to confirm it would be to study methodologies which claim to induce ESP.

Why should anyone bother chasing rainbows? No one has ever shown abilities for ESP, so there is no point pursuing it, and no one with a brain in their heads is about to pay for such research.

If either of you had extensively studied any such disciplines to personally confirm whether or not they are bogus, I would have more respect for your views on this aspect.

I don't want your respect, and I will give you none. You have chosen to propagate disinformation on your website. That is reprehensible at the very least.

(Q)

08-29-04, 01:41 PM

Here you go Transy, this article should give you some insight into your claims:

http://www.watchingyou.com/woowoo.html

Crunchy Cat

08-29-04, 02:13 PM

Crunchy Cat, don't bother; pretty much everything that Q just said is represented in the following article:

Debunking Pseudo-Skeptical Arguments Against Paranormal and Psychic Phenomena (http://www.transmaterial.com/winston_wu/winston_wu_intro.htm).

Nice site. It has alot of good infromation that is mixed with alot of false
information. A dangerous combination IMO. Anyhow, you implied that you
have a new sense. That's cool. What is it? Once this is defined lets work
together to test it.

Heck, I'll even throw in some weird claims myself. I can cause a strange
physical sensation to manifest in my body. It feels like a pulse of warm,
tingly, tightening of my skin. Typically the feeling manifests from my head
and can spread as far as my legs (depending on the intensity of pulse). When
a pulse occurs, there is no visible change along it's path. It takes a little
work to get a good series of pulses going; however, I can nonetheless
reproduce the pulse when I want. Sometimes the pulse starts in my back,
arms, or other areas of my body (in fact I saw a 'Chakra' diagram once and
the points of 'energy' shown correspond to many of my pulse points... but
this is just an observation and not intended to act as proof of 'Chakra'). I
can't really control where a pulse emenates from and it seems to come from
my head the most. I have some control over the intensity of a pulse and this
in turn dictates how far it spreads through the rest of my body. I have no
tested to see if the pulse affects my blood pressure, brain waves, elctric
field, temperature, etc. I have made an interesting observation; however, if I
wake up from sleeping then initiating a pulse will immediately launch me into a
lucid dream. Some interesting observations about my lucid dreams initiatied
by the pulse is that they always start in the exact location where I am
sleeping and are somewhat corrupt in the beginning. For example, my wife
(laying next to me) may have a clone next to her with 10+ arms or there may
be a rabid armadillo on my bed with spiked armor that moves around the body
of the animal at a speed fast enough to produce blur when observed by a
person. Usually the corruption clears in what I would approximate to be 5-10
minutes of dreamtime.

So, lets summarize my claims:

* I can reproduce a very unusual physical sensation at will.
* The senstation can be brought about in pulses and typically
emenates from my head but may eminate from various points in
my body. The emination point is not something I can control.
* The greater the intensity of the pulse, the farther the sensation
will travel in my body.
* Initiating a pulse after waking up will immediately throw me into
REM sleep (there have been no exceptions to date). The content
of the dream after doing this will be corrupted for a short time.

I'll make you a deal. If you tell me about your sense and help me test
it then I will be accountable to you for proving any of the above claims
I made (which are consequently much harder to prove because they
are all internalized).

This argument is a sure bet--but only as long as you consider the Rationalist methodology the only way to confirm reality. This means writing off the evidence of the senses, the relevance of first-person reporting when it comes to what people can perceive, and the efficacy of any techniques for developing extrasensory abilities. You both seem to believe that science's current framework defines the absolute truth of the human potential... you put on a front of cautiously doubting things because they have never been proven, but there is an implicit assumption that science has come so far in exploring human capabilities, "unproven" functionally means "unreal."

You live in a unvierse that has laws defiing reality. The laws are self
enforcing. You simply cannot break them. If you choose to accept as true
that sleeping on a flaming bed of burning napalm will not harm you then
reality is going to contradict your 'truth' the moment you lay down in that
bad (you will be burned to a crisp). Science is just a tool for getting at the
truth. It is quite frankly the best tool available by leaps and bounds. When
a claim is made, it is an assertion of truth and there are a bazillion ways
to support claims. I have ESP (ok read my mind). I have telekensis (ok raise
my hand). I have clairvoyance (ok get the winning lottery numbers). Planets
are spherical (ok show me).

You can say that I am wrong, that I have no evidence, and it is true within the context you have selected. However, you can't dictate whether something exists or not. I have stated my criteria for belief. You can keep saying, "but look, now we're back in my context, where your belief is worthless!" You may now dub yourselves arbiters of reality. That doesn't make you right. The world was there before Western scientists questioned how and why; so it is with human perception.

The only context that Q and I are working in is the known model of of
existence. If someone builds upon the model or corrects in that is a
wonderful thing. If someone jumps into a different model then they
are going to have alot of contradiction to get over.

CC, your statement "agreement validates the attractiveness of an assertion" is true in many cases. It could be applied to many New Age fads (to say nothing of commercial fads). However, I hope you realize the fallacy of contending that "agreement only validates the attractiveness of an assertion." Sometimes agreement is indicative of the fact that many people have had made a valid observation about their reality.

You are 100% correct and I am in error. I am quite impressed to see that
you have weilded the tool of logic so effectively in this case.

Let's face it: everyone's chasing their tails here. I don't have "the proof," so you are both right within a Rationalist framework, yet you both keep voicing your subjective opinion that this framework defines reality, as if you were stating an objective fact. I keep retorting that there are other ways of measuring reality, which are built into the human organism. Then you say, "where is the proof?"

Where's the beef?!? It reminds me of those old BK commercials. What's
preventing you from attaining the proof?

Do you get the paradox here? You've just ordered a crate full of crowbars; how are you going to open it? Well, it would be easier from inside the crate, because then you would have a crowbar. If there is ESP, since science has not proven it, the most reliable way to confirm it would be to study methodologies which claim to induce ESP. At best, one would take an empirical approach to this, working to safeguard against defense mechanisms like the "attraction of belief" dynamic that Crunchy Cat just mentioned.

Go to the store and buy an extra crobar? :)

If either of you had extensively studied any such disciplines to personally confirm whether or not they are bogus, I would have more respect for your views on this aspect. And "I have a friend who's into martial arts and he's a skeptic too" doesn't count. Aside from the fact that it is hearsay, can you show that it represents a prevailing belief among practitioners of Aikido, Judo, Qi Gong, or Kung Fu? Oh, but consensus doesn't matter... "We protect the island of the real in this sea of delusions."
[/QUOTE]

My opinion on this is that the disciplines that produce results are the ones
worth studying.