The bible says the following,

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

Why is belief in Jesus important? Is this fair? If one has done good in this life all the time, however does not believe in Jesus, why is that punished?

Is this punishment an idea of Jesus? Is it an idea of God? Or is it simply a statement what is valid on itself somehow, just as one would state the laws of nature.

I have heard that Islam sends all non-belivers (no belif in Islam) to hell. Is this fair? Is it an idea of God? If so then if belief in Islam or Christianity is mutally exclusive (one cannot belive in both religions), then are we not all condemned with God's wrath? :confused:

I do not think these parts are so nice with existing world religions.

The bible says the following,

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

Why is belief in Jesus important? Is this fair? If one has done good in this life all the time, however does not believe in Jesus, why is that punished?

It does not matter how much good we have done. What bars us from eternity with God is the bad we have done and thought. Most religions of this world think of the good deeds vs bad deeds score.. That as long as ones good deeds out point the bad deeds score then all will be well. That is not the Message of Christianity.

Belief in Jesus is belief in all the things Jesus said and belief in Him as Messiah.


Is this punishment an idea of Jesus? Is it an idea of God? Or is it simply a statement what is valid on itself somehow, just as one would state the laws of nature.

Jesus is God in the flesh. Its Gods will for those who take pleasure in unrighteousness.

I have heard that Islam sends all non-belivers (no belif in Islam) to hell. Is this fair? Is it an idea of God? If so then if belief in Islam or Christianity is mutally exclusive (one cannot belive in both religions), then are we not all condemned with God's wrath?

Islam rejects Jesus because they reject His word and who He is. Therefore they are the ones who are in danger of the eternal lake of fire. You are right you cannot believe in both beliefs because both cannot be correct. Either Jesus is as the Bible states or Jesus is as the koran states. Those who have been loyal to the truth of Jesus will not be condemned but those who are enticed away from the truth by deceivers are doomed.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I have heard that Islam sends all non-belivers (no belif in Islam) to hell. Is this fair? Is it an idea of God? If so then if belief in Islam or Christianity is mutally exclusive (one cannot belive in both religions), then are we not all condemned with God's wrath?

Why does the idea that Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive, bother you?

Why does the idea that Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive, bother you?

Because it may suggest gods don't exist and are merely conjured from the imaginations of men - would that bother you?

Why does the idea that Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive, bother you?

Because it may suggest gods don't exist and are merely conjured from the imaginations of men - would that bother you?

Just because people have opposing views on God does not mean God doesn't exist.

Then whose view of God is the right one? I want to meet that person(s).

Then whose view of God is the right one? I want to meet that person(s).

Do you not wish to rely on yourself and what is in your heart?
Do you want someone else to decide for you?


Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inner visions
Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten

Why does the idea that Christianity and Islam are mutually exclusive, bother you?

Well if both religions are the true word of God, then since we cannot believe in both religions, those that belive in Islam will be sent to hell becuase they do not believe in Jesus, those that believe in Christianity will be sent to hell because they do not belive in Muhammed, and those that do not believe in either religion is sent to hell as well since they do not believe in Jeses and since they do not believe in Muhammed.

All are sent to hell.

Does this conclution not bother you?

However we are parting from the original question, which is,

Why is belief in Jesus important?

Why is it not enough to punish all the bad things a person has done, why must one punish non-beleif in another person?

Do you not wish to rely on yourself and what is in your heart?
Do you want someone else to decide for you?

Bullshit. Whose view of god is correct? Yours? If you can't answer a yes or no or tell me whose view of god is correct, we can only assume your view is from your imagination.

Do you not wish to rely on yourself and what is in your heart?
Do you want someone else to decide for you?

Bullshit. Whose view of god is correct? Yours? If you can't answer a yes or no or tell me whose view of god is correct, we can only assume your view is from your imagination.

Why do you want to know whose view of God is correct?
And what makes you assume that a person can indeed be in possession of such a view?

Streamline,


Well if both religions are the true word of God, then since we cannot believe in both religions, those that belive in Islam will be sent to hell becuase they do not believe in Jesus, those that believe in Christianity will be sent to hell because they do not belive in Muhammed, and those that do not believe in either religion is sent to hell as well since they do not believe in Jeses and since they do not believe in Muhammed.

All are sent to hell.

Does this conclution not bother you?

As far as I know, both religions say that God sees into a person's heart, and judges by that. And they both also say that the judgment is up to God, humans having no saying in that.
I am confident God will do as God will see fit.


Why is belief in Jesus important?

Why is it not enough to punish all the bad things a person has done, why must one punish non-beleif in another person?

First of all, Jesus is not just a person, mind you.
Secondly, non-belief in fact means 'not following a desired path, not being devoted'; non-belief doesn't refer to a lack of mental contents (about Jesus, in this case). The term "belief" tends to be a bit confusing.
A person may have mental contents about Jesus, but choose not to live accordingly to them.

Belief in Jesus has nothing to do with the teaching of Jesus. This dogma is designed to reinforce the authority of the orthodox church.

What it really means is that one should follow the path of Jesus. But, since this is an individual persuit, you are your own authority.

Do you not wish to rely on yourself and what is in your heart?
Do you want someone else to decide for you?

Bullshit. Whose view of god is correct? Yours? If you can't answer a yes or no or tell me whose view of god is correct, we can only assume your view is from your imagination.
Forming a "view" of God is not a spiritual pursuit. Accepting the views of others isn't either. Robbing the individual of the freedom to search with faith and be transformed by their own realization has been the business of the orthodox church from the very beginning.

Why is belief in the Son important?

since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself; but the sufferings and death of Christ ATONE for their sins, through faith and repentance, and so forth; and that he breaketh the bands of death, that the grave shall have no victory, and that the sting of death should be swallowed up in the hopes of glory...

You're on borrowed time brother. We all are. Heaping a great debt upon our heads that no man can pay. Save jesus alone.

Why do you want to know whose view of God is correct?

Don't you?

And what makes you assume that a person can indeed be in possession of such a view?

Theists.

Now, answer the question.

The bible says the following,

Mark 16:16 The one who believes and is baptized will be saved, but the one who does not believe will be condemned.

John 3:18 The one who believes in him is not condemned. The one who does not believe has been condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God

John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God's wrath remains on him.

Why is belief in Jesus important? Is this fair? If one has done good in this life all the time, however does not believe in Jesus, why is that punished?

Is this punishment an idea of Jesus? Is it an idea of God? Or is it simply a statement what is valid on itself somehow, just as one would state the laws of nature.

I have heard that Islam sends all non-belivers (no belif in Islam) to hell. Is this fair? Is it an idea of God? If so then if belief in Islam or Christianity is mutally exclusive (one cannot belive in both religions), then are we not all condemned with God's wrath? :confused:

I do not think these parts are so nice with existing world religions.We have to take our faith seriously. Unless we do and take actions then it's like if we see a cliff and just walk straight out and fall, we thought of the cliff in our heads but we didn't really believe so we just walked straight on thinking the cliff is not really there but that the road just continues.

If you can't accept the Son of God, Gods beloved Son, why wouldn't you accept Him in your hearts?

Some of you don't believe He exists, first of all you should believe that He exist, thereafter let Him into your heart...or is it the other way around?

I guess it may be different for each person, some people may have to "get to know Him" through the Bible, reading about Him, and discovering what kind of person He is, thereafter that person might think of Him as more real. Since they actually see the person behind the words. You see, every person is different, has a different "taste" about them (and no, I'm no cannibal :) ), it's only natural, and fake persons just haven't got that sense of coherence about themselves.

Then we have the letters where He is mentioned, why would someone send a personal letter to his friends lying to them about a fake person? There would have to be a big conspiracy in order not to falsify his claims - since it was so short time since the meeting and since he claimed also that some of the witnessess were still alive at the time the letter was written. We should first of all believe that Jesus did in fact exist as a real person living in those days.

Then we can read what is written about Him in the books and letters and such and wonder if there isn't some truth in it.

I doubt someone actually sat there and thought for himself that "this would make a pretty good lie!", also it is such a profound story in which so many people are involved. Also we should think about the consequences for the ones that made up such a story, it would not have been a slight fault to do such a thing in those days, and who would have written it? The new testament clearly consists of many writers and even if there were only one to begin with then what kind of position would he have to make such a story and be believed? It couldn't have been a person of great power since they were the ones that persecuted christ and didn't believe Him to be the One.

I may be wrong in some of this since I haven't looked it up, but there has to be some truth to what I'm saying.

Christianity has transformed a rather profound movement into a cult of personality, that's why it is characterized by "accepting Jesus".

I just thought I would quickly point out the hypocricy and ignorance shown within this thread:

Do you want someone else to decide for you?


Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inner visions
Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten

You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

You probably have no idea what I'm getting at, so nevermind.

Now on to Cyperium who seems to be struggling:

If you can't accept the Son of God, Gods beloved Son, why wouldn't you accept Him in your hearts?

Some of you don't believe He exists, first of all you should believe that He exist,

Can I ask you a personal question? Have you ever read the bible? Have you ever bothered to listen to the words of your god? It would seem you haven't, and I will - due to being a nice guy - help you out a little. You ready? K..

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

Of course this has it's downside in that we are only non-believers because god made it that way, and wants it that way. We have absolutely no choice in the matter - and are doomed to hell because of it.

Now, shoo flea.. you're wasting your time and ours - so sayeth god.

Cyperium and water,

I have two questions for you both.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings? You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

Second question,

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

Ahhh, but you (and the orthodoxy) have made some false presumptions, namely that Jesus can't be ordinary and have a connection with the devine. The devine and the ordinary are the same. ...And the sons of God are anyone that realizes their own nature, which is also devine nature. The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life. We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

... The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life. We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

This is an answer to the original question, thank you. I am not saying that it is necessarily The Correct Answer, just saying it is one of many.

How is this punishment inherent in life?

It can be said that one is punished for lack of wisdom, but what exactly makes not following Jesus' advice lack of wisdom. To me, Jesus' advice of believing in him is just a command, not necessarily wisdom, since he does not motivate it. I am not saying it is not wisdom, I am just saying it does not convince me as wisdom since there is no motivation for it.

Cyperium and water,

I have two questions for you both.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings? You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

I know you are talking to Cyperium and water, but I'd like to answer:

I am too weak to believe without a sign (Jesus Christ). Sadly, without the death and ressurection I would just be a gentile. I was not brought up in the Jewish faith, so I would not have a leg to stand on and I would have not been able to look past the scientific evidence. If Jesus was not the son of God, the Christian faith would not be in existence and I would be agnostic.


Second question,

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

Why do you perceive the choice like that? God is not threatening anyone! We, and the things we do, condemn ourselves by our own design. It is when we give the design up, we are freed from ourselves and condemnation. He is a father who is telling you that if you make the wrong choice in life you will suffer the consequences that you yourself sow. Jesus said that if you don't vote for him, you will die because he cannot help you if you don't vote for him. If I did not vote for the person who does good for my life, then I condemn myself to the misery of another ruler. You have a friend in high places, by not supporting the friend, you are missing out on benefits and promises. He promises that if you vote for him, you will make it to heaven.

What good is followers who follow you out of fear? I only fear myself. God has no choice, for the sake of the righteous and unrighteous, but to seperate sinful from righteousness and not subject the righteous to sinful and the sinful to righteousness, because they are at odds. They must be seperated if God is to be merciful to them both, and he has a place prepared for the righteous and sinful. If God ever actually punishes you, it is out of love and only for those that are his children. If you feel that it is punishment for your sins, then by what right or desire do you have to be with the righteous? If you feel that it is punishment, then be free from it. Believe in God, or don't believe in God. There is no punishment for the nonbelievers, only judgement. And if you don't believe in God or don't want anything to do with God, then you will have your every desire fullfilled.

As far as the lake of fire, scripture says it was not made for humans, but for Satan. But, sin is sin, and what makes you better than Satan if you accept your sin and despise God for passing judgement? So non believers are judged and the unrighteous will be sent to the unrighteous. If you enjoy an unrighteous decent life, is that not where you would want to be?

Only if you desire righteousness, but are unrighteous does judgement become a punishment in one's mind and torment you. So, if you truly think that God is threatening you with punishment for not believing in him, then be free from sin or embrace it. Then, the choice will cease to be a punishment in your mind. Just remember that scripture says that God does not wish that anyone would pass away from his sight forever.

My interpretation is that Jesus instructed us to look into our own nature, as opposed to being preoccupied by the excessive drinking, sex, warfare, and the thousands of other human distractions (sin), all of which punish us by not really satisfying our souls. I don't think his message was simply to believe in his divinity, but believe that he had a profound experience to share, much like other reclusive and spiritually inclined masters. Note that even this would only be a first step. I think the good news (gospel) is that astounding revelations can happen in this lifetime, that divinity is not some lofty ideal, but here and now; that the ordinary is actually extraordinary, if only we could see it as it really is.

The advice to become seekers doesn't necessarily have to come from him, since any such efforts have a universal nature. That is why he said that no one comes to the father but through me. All phenomenon that can be called enlightenment have the same qualities that Jesus experienced. Any enlightened person would be have to follow in his footsteps. Of course, this is now considered an unorthodox opinion, because those that thought otherwise saw to it that this view was supressed. At one time, the view that all that was required was to espouse a creed (as is commonly the case now) were considered the heretics. I guess whoever is in charge makes the rules.

(Q),



Why do you want to know whose view of God is correct?

Don't you?

Yes, but I don't see the whole thing as a contest, or as a fight between who is right and who is wrong.


And what makes you assume that a person can indeed be in possession of such a view?

Theists.

Then you have a great faith that theists are what they say! I don't think it is wise to just take any theist for his word.


Also, listen to Spidergoat. He makes very good points.


* * *


SnakeLord,


You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

Eh. Natasha Bedingfield is -- the Bible now ...?


There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

...

You are a victim of your own lazy self-victimization.



* * *


Streamline,


It looks like you think I am a Christian. I'm not a Christian.


If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings?

I don't "follow Jesus' teachings" because they are Jesus' teachings; I happen to follow some of them because they seem wise to me. That they are Jesus', doesn't matter to me.


You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.

Wisdom is wisdom, regardless who incites it.
I don't need someone to tell me "You see, this is wisdom, what I am telling you" and then think his words to be wisdom just because he said so.


Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

God.


* * *

The punishment from ignoring Jesus' advice won't be handed out by him, but is inherent in life.

We are always punished by our lack of wisdom. That's why it's called wisdom.

Exactly.

How is this punishment inherent in life?

If you eat too much, you get fat and ill in many ways.

If you indulge in thinking violent thoughts, and acting on them, this will become your habit, your mode of being.

Etc.
Such is the inherent punishment for sin.

Or, we are punished by our sins, rather than for them.

the 'son' has many associations mythologically speaking.

'we' areused to reading myth literally. hence usually the judaic christian version of the 'son'--as ritten about in the Bible is taken literally

but--as said, 'son' means other stuff that is not immeditaely noticeable from the lieralist reading

example, 'son' means SUN, ans pre-patriarchy 'SON OF THE GODDESS'...which means ature, the psychedelic mushroom, and the experiece of the 'risen son'--ie., the ecstaic reliious experience of deep interelationship with wild Nature

what patriarchy does is take 'son' away from Nature andplaces him at the 'right hand of God' 'up there'...and then is the authority one must believe in this literalist version..or else!...what that version means is abiding patriarchal autority of the Church

but a deeper meaning is that if one doesn't become initiated in the 'mysteries'--as interpreated by the initiats of the early christin religion, then one is not really understanding the essence

deeper than that is meaning that unless one understands their deep connection with the Goddess, ie., Nature, then one can only create a supreme mess

I thought that "son of" basically meant "of the same nature as...".

Naturally, Jesus was limited by the vocabulary and culture of the times.

Or, we are punished by our sins, rather than for them.

Most definitely. It is by sin, that our minds, hearts and bodies become defiled.

It is just that some sins seem to take a long time to "show an effect".

Yes, but I don't see the whole thing as a contest, or as a fight between who is right and who is wrong.

Who said anything about a contest? If I were you, or any other theist, I would want to make damn sure my faith based reasoning was right? Don't you care if yours is perhaps wrong?

Then you have a great faith that theists are what they say! I don't think it is wise to just take any theist for his word.

I don't take theists for their word when it comes to their beliefs - I know they're wrong.

I thought that "son of" basically meant "of the same nature as...".

Naturally, Jesus was limited by the vocabulary and culture of the times.

limited as in when one only thinks the myth is LITERAL....

HERES A TASTE OF LOOKING AT DEEPER MEANINGS:

"The Panther

In the Jewish Talmud, Jesus is somtimes referred to as Bar Pandera', "Son of (the) Panther"...."(The Sacred Mushroom and the Cross, John M.Allegro....author goes onto explain that that reference, altough recorded, its real meaning has been suppressed and forgotten

through etymological investigation it appears it is meaning son of sacred mushroom, the panther reference referring to the 'spotted' hallucinogenic mshroom, Fly Agaric!

now deeper than THAT, we have to understand that the christian mystical clt had usurped the much more ancient Goddess religion of te EARTH.....OKAY

so see what happens. the christians emphasize the sacred psychedelic mushroom as originating from 'God'--from his sacred sperm from on high. so what have they done? they have divided Nature, which has always been associated with rthe Goddess--as in Mpother Earth.....? and thus 'son' now means 'of the nature of' the patriarchal 'god' who is TRANSCENDENT. 'ABOVE' Nature......from there are dreams t escape ature to 'heaven' to be with the 'Father' and/or to 'spiritualize' Nature.

This idea is vastly different than undwrstanding thaty Nature is SACRED AS IT IS

If you eat too much, you get fat and ill in many ways.

If you indulge in thinking violent thoughts, and acting on them, this will become your habit, your mode of being.

Etc.
Such is the inherent punishment for sin.

Sorry, I was not refering to Jesus' advice in general, but rather the specific advice of beleiving in him.
How can not following believing Jesus' advice of not beleiving in him have a punishment that is inherent in life.

(Q),



Who said anything about a contest? If I were you, or any other theist, I would want to make damn sure my faith based reasoning was right? Don't you care if yours is perhaps wrong?

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.
I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.


I don't take theists for their word when it comes to their beliefs - I know they're wrong.

Then why are you discussing with them? Do you think you should deconvert them?

Sorry, I was not refering to Jesus' advice in general, but rather the specific advice of beleiving in him.
How can not following believing Jesus' advice of not beleiving in him have a punishment that is inherent in life.

Try with hating everyone and being generally unkind to people, for starters.
You'll see what happens.

accchhggg you literalists!...if the truth smashed you in the face you wouldn't blink

you go round nnd round and round in the confines of your limited conceptions....a viscious circle indeedo

Eh. Natasha Bedingfield is -- the Bible now ...?I take issue with this, it's got to be Josh Stone.

Well if both religions are the true word of God, then since we cannot believe in both religions, those that belive in Islam will be sent to hell becuase they do not believe in Jesus, those that believe in Christianity will be sent to hell because they do not belive in Muhammed, and those that do not believe in either religion is sent to hell as well since they do not believe in Jeses and since they do not believe in Muhammed.

All are sent to hell.

Does this conclution not bother you?

You have a very strange sense of logic. Why would God give a message through Jesus and then 600 odd years later send muhammed along saying that the message of Jesus was a lie? Either The Message of Jesus is right and muhammed is wrong or muhammed is right and Jesus is wrong. Of cource if they are both false this discussion is vain.

If one reads the Message of Jesus and then reads the message of muhammed it is impossible to believe in both. it is only possible to accept one and reject the other OR reject both.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Isn't it amazing that an anti-christian can pick out one verse as if they are well read in the bible like this:

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.



And in the same post identify a whole passage of righting by Natasha Bedingfield as being a bible scriptures???????????


Reaching for something in the distance
So close you can almost taste it
Release your inner visions
Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins

Feel the rain on your skin
No one else can feel it for you
Only you can let it in
No one else, no one else
Can speak the words on your lips
Drench yourself in words unspoken
Live your life with arms wide open
Today is where your book begins
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten
The rest is still unwritten

You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

You probably have no idea what I'm getting at, so nevermind.

Looks like someone does not know what they are talking about. Thats for sure.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

steamline

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?

Look around you streamline people have made their free will decision to reject Jesus. The fact or otherwise of eternal punishment has no practical effect on their true decision. Fear of God can only cause one to consider God. But in the end if one disagrees with the will of God then disbelief will cause the fear of retribution to disappear quickly. But people who believe in God end up not having any fear of retribution, therefore the punishment for rejecting Jesus has no practical affect on ones decision to either accept or reject Him.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Then whose view of God is the right one? I want to meet that person(s).

Then you are trusting in a person to guide you to your eternal destiny. Can you trust another human being with something so important? I cannot.

Let’s just say Q that there is a God. If there was a God do you think that the God of Abraham would be that God?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You are a victim of your own lazy self-victimization.


Yet another nincompoop trying to make out that I am to blame, that I wrote the biblical quote I pasted here. Nevermind, it is to be expected from you hypocrites.

Then you are trusting in a person to guide you to your eternal destiny. Can you trust another human being with something so important? I cannot.

You're missing the point entirely, I'm asking whose view of god is correct, since theists disagree with one another on their own views. That would mean they are wrong about god.

Is your view the correct one?

Let’s just say Q that there is a God. If there was a God do you think that the God of Abraham would be that God?

That is exactly my question to you or anyone else who cares to answer. I have no idea.

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical? Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god? How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

Do you think you should deconvert them?

That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god? Why aren't you the Pope?

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Not so.
I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.


Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

So?


I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

If the view of God were something to be attained once, and then behave as if one had arrived, then youa re most surely right.
But I don't think in terms of "I have arrived".


Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical?

Why? I am not forcing my view on anyone.


Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god?

No, not true.
People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.
That people relate to God in different ways is due to their particular life experience, which may have nothing to do with God.


How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

There is only one God, so you can't miss.
But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.


That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god?

You are forcing these conclusions.

Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

I just thought I would quickly point out the hypocricy and ignorance shown within this thread:



You asked if he wants someone else to decide for him, and then supplied a biblical quote which has the express goal of making a decision for him.

You probably have no idea what I'm getting at, so nevermind.

Now on to Cyperium who seems to be struggling:





Can I ask you a personal question? Have you ever read the bible? Have you ever bothered to listen to the words of your god? It would seem you haven't, and I will - due to being a nice guy - help you out a little. You ready? K..

2 Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

There is your answer. It was staring you right in the face and yet through some strange bible blindness, you couldn't even see it. Your god has declared that the unbelievers mind has been blinded so we cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. It is meaningless, we are blind to it. You fools try to persuade us to believe, convince us of biblical reality without even noticing that god has already told you that's impossible. You can't - because we have been blinded by him.

Of course this has it's downside in that we are only non-believers because god made it that way, and wants it that way. We have absolutely no choice in the matter - and are doomed to hell because of it.

Now, shoo flea.. you're wasting your time and ours - so sayeth god.Well, this is because you have to believe, Jesus said that He talked in "pictures" so that not all would see what is meant, those who see and yet do not see (and hear and yet do not hear). I don't think He meant only understanding, but it's rather a matter of taking in, and trusting God. Faith is from the very bottom, a rock in the foundation.

Cyperium and water,

I have two questions for you both.

If Jesus was an ordinary man, not son of God, no connection with the divine whatsoever, would you follow his teachings? You would not be punished for not believing in him; Jesus was just as ordinary as any man on earth, so if you wanted to ignore him you could do so without punishment. Would Jesus still be an important part of you lifes? In otherwords, as a philosopher only.Maybe Jesus wouldn't be such a big part of my life, but his teachings would, since they have such value. I also respond emotionally to other peoples teachings, as long as I feel that they would help me in situations. Jesus being a "authority" makes Him more trustworthy than "any person" though and it can be easier to take in what He says.

Second question,

Do you realize that belief in someone gives power to that person. If you could freely give your vote to anyone who lives or has lived on earth, and that vote would give that person power to rule earth and the divine heavens' afterworld, who would that vote go to? Rembember you should not be forced by anyone saying, vote for me or you will be punished; your vote should be completely free, and all the Gods want you to freely cast your vote. Remember that whoever you give your vote to will have power over you for a long time forward, so your vote is important to you. You can also opt out and not choose a single person but rather a group of persons, or vote for a system without specifying any persons. What would you vote for?God of course. I wouldn't trust just any person to rule over everything cause I don't know what the qualifications for such a person would be. Thus I would choose God, or Gods Son. If I'm not into sin too much...cause then there is a risk (and I do say risk) that I may choose myself and I guess the consequences would be total meaninglessness - for all, who can handle Gods power but God?

Well, this is because you have to believe

Uh.. I can't - I have been blinded, so sayeth god. That was the very point I was making.

Jesus said that He talked in "pictures" so that not all would see what is meant, those who see and yet do not see (and hear and yet do not hear).

Dude, my mind has been blinded so I cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. Of course I bloody well don't see - I've been blinded. Duh.

I don't think He meant only understanding, but it's rather a matter of taking in, and trusting God.

I can't.. I've been blinded - so sayeth god.

Faith is from the very bottom, a rock in the foundation.

Blind men often trip over a rock - because they're blind and can't see it.

I have been made blind. Don't try and blame me for it.

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

Just a quick message about the "You have to choose Jesus, or Muhammad, or reject them both, but you can't accept them both" idea.. I disagree, unless one refuses to accept the idea that Jesus' true message hasn't been faithfully retained in the New Testament. To a Christian, who believes the entire NT is the "Word of God", and who believes Jesus is God incarnate, of course, that person can not accept Muhammad's message. Then again, one could say, "You have to choose God, or Jesus, or reject them both, but you can't accept them both", if you're a Jew. And that is how some Jews think today, such as one book's title "You take Jesus, I'll take God". Since the Hebrew Bible more than once states that the Jews are to keep the law "forever", or however that's translated, many Jews have a difficult time accepting the idea that they don't need to keep the Law, so to them, the NT is preaching a different God. The Christian could respond mentioning that Jeremiah passage which speaks of a "new covenant", but if you read it, it says this applies to the house of Israel and the house of Judah (looks like it might be referring to the twelve tribes to me, and were the twelve tribes even around in Jesus' day?), it says "my law" will be placed in their hearts. The Law, not another law, or another religious code. Again, I'm speaking from a possible Jewish viewpoint.

And to a Muslim, if he believes the Qur'an, and accepts the idea that Muhammad was the final prophet, then he can not believe in Guru Nanak's message, or Baha'ullah's, or Joseph Smith's, etc.

BTW, if one reads the alleged "debate" between Celsus and Origen, from what I recall, Celsus says that the mystery religions' adherents threatened eternal damnation to the Christians. So this idea was not unique to Christianity, apparently. What if one of the mystery religions was actually the true religion? ;)

Nope.

I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.

But if there is ONLY ONE GOD, then each view should be identical, not different. That is the whole purpose of the concept of god, that he be recognized as ONE GOD. If the experiences, as you call them, yield different versions of god, then there cannot be ONLY ONE GOD.

Why? I am not forcing my view on anyone.

You shouldn't have to, that's not the point. Everyone should have exactly the same view of god as you, including me.

People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.

Complete nonsense, you're skirting around the issue. God is absolute and can only produce exactly the same views, regardless of ones ability. Again, that is the whole purpose of ONLY ONE GOD.

There is only one God, so you can't miss.

That contradicts everthing you've just said thus far. If you were right, everyone would know him equally and unequivocally.

But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.

Worshipping has nothing to do with it. Ones view of god is all that matters.

Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

Devotion and I-have-arrived are merely excuses and have nothing to do with ones view of god.

If views of god differ from person to person, then one can only conclude that a single god does not exist or its all in ones imagination.

This is very simply, straight-forward logic that you simply cannot deny or make up excuses.

If god reveals himself to each individual, that view must be identical from person to person, or the whole concept of a single god is pointless.

hmmmmmi get the image of talking heads with stary eyes fixed on poles whilse a mischevious jester balances poles on his palms making them turn round while they continue talkin talkin.....

(Q),



I am myself, and other people are other people. I can't always relate to their experiences of God and life, but it is from these experiences that so many different views on God spring.

But if there is ONLY ONE GOD, then each view should be identical, not different.

If ALL people were the same, with the same knowledge and the same life experience, then what you are saying would apply.
But people are not all the same -- in that they have different life experiences (different age, culture, upbringing, IQ, EQ, ...).


That is the whole purpose of the concept of god, that he be recognized as ONE GOD.

Ideally, yes. But this cannot happen in this life, yet. Christianity, for example, holds the concept that we will know God in full only in the afterlife.


If the experiences, as you call them, yield different versions of god, then there cannot be ONLY ONE GOD.

Doesn't follow.
Different experiences yield different versions of God, because people are different from one another.


Everyone should have exactly the same view of god as you, including me.

??
What makes you think so?!


People relate to God to the best of their current abilities, this relation is not a matter of an I-have-arrived logic.

Complete nonsense, you're skirting around the issue.

We are not dead yet, we haven't completed our lives yet. So don't talk as if we already had.


God is absolute and can only produce exactly the same views, regardless of ones ability. Again, that is the whole purpose of ONLY ONE GOD.

Ys, and we are all moving towards that goal. Some slower, some faster.


There is only one God, so you can't miss.

That contradicts everthing you've just said thus far. If you were right, everyone would know him equally and unequivocally.

No, at least not yet. We have things to learn and to do.


But, there are several ways of worship, and these are mostly determined by the person's life experience and their current state of mind.

Worshipping has nothing to do with it. Ones view of god is all that matters.

You are very absolutistic and closed-minded when it comes to God.


Do you think being devoted to God is a matter of the I-have-arrived logic?

Devotion and I-have-arrived are merely excuses and have nothing to do with ones view of god.

If views of god differ from person to person, then one can only conclude that a single god does not exist or its all in ones imagination.

Views of love (or anything for that matter) differ from person to person as well. Does these mean that love (or anything) doesn't exist or is false?


If god reveals himself to each individual, that view must be identical from person to person, or the whole concept of a single god is pointless.

People are not perfect, they cannot perfectly observe objective reality for what it is. Our particularities (different life experience etc.) create a haze through which we observe objective reality, and God, and this haze distorts our view (but later knowledge can disspell (some of) this haze).

If ALL people were the same, with the same knowledge and the same life experience, then what you are saying would apply.

Life experiences and knowledge have nothing to do with a god. God is absolute to everyone, understood by everyone equally - that is the very meaning of god. To define god any differently than what he was meant to be is an affront to his identity.

If what you say is true, then god is merely an imaginative concept from the minds of people.

Christianity, for example, holds the concept that we will know God in full only in the afterlife.

But the fact remains that so many people have so many varying views on god. Will it be such that each individual in the afterlife will stand before god and suddenly, after knowing god fully, will realize they were worshipping a false god? The answer is a definitive, yes.

Different experiences yield different versions of God, because people are different from one another.

Then clearly, those experiences had nothing to do with god, but had everything to do with ones assumption that their experience was with god. God would had to have revealed himself differently to each individual if each individuals view was different.

Does an apple look any different to you than me or anyone else?

You are very absolutistic and closed-minded when it comes to God

That's a poor way of saying you can't respond with an intelligent answer.

People are not perfect, they cannot perfectly observe objective reality for what it is.

We know that relates to you, but not to everyone. Reality, on the other hand, IS observed for what it is, all that is required is thinking and understanding.

Our particularities (different life experience etc.) create a haze through which we observe objective reality, and God, and this haze distorts our view (but later knowledge can disspell (some of) this haze).

The haze you speak is religion. Without it, nothing would distort your view, barring any mental defects.

The point that I am trying to make is that if a god does in fact reveal himself to someone, it would absolute, with perfect clarity, that everyone else could understand and agree.

You are stating that it is not god who reveals himself to anyone, but it is ones life experiences that cause them to believe in a god. What happened to god?

Once can only conclude that god never revealed himself at all, and that the person only assumed a god, based on some life experience. That is egotistical.

You're missing the point entirely, I'm asking whose view of god is correct, since theists disagree with one another on their own views. That would mean they are wrong about god.

Is your view the correct one?

You ask me to answer a question that you already know my answer to. This lead me to wonder why an athiest would ask such a question and sure enough you reveled it when another thiest answered.

As far as I can see and understand, mine is right.

Then, you are the only one whose view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong.

Yet, everyone else will state vehemently that you are wrong and they are right.

I can't go beyond what I see and understand at this point in my life.

Then, maybe your view of god IS wrong.

Have you yet noticed how thinking your view of god is correct amongst everyone else is utterly ridiculous and hypocritical? Can you further deduce that if your view of god is correct and everyone else is wrong, that the entire poplulace of theists is worshipping a false god? How could you go on worshipping your god if there is even the slightest inkling that your view is wrong, that you are worshipping a false god?

Do you think you should deconvert them?

That would be great, but don't you think all other theists should be hailing you as a prophet since you alone possess the one true view of god? Why aren't you the Pope?


Just because the number of people who believe in the true God is very small does not mean that the God they worship does not exist. God is not created by opinion polls or popularity votes. Nor does God change because someone creates a false image of Him and millions and billions of people fall for the deception.



Matthew 7
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.

Jesus said that few would find salvation. That many would go the way of destruction. Does that make God a failure? Does that make Him disappear?
Yes of course most people do not follow the will of the God of Abraham and yes most people who do acknowledge the God of Abraham are on their way to destruction. So what? This fact neither confirms nor debunks the existence of the God of Abraham.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

No.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You ask me to answer a question that you already know my answer to.

Sorry, I can't read your mind, you'll need to answer the question.

Just because the number of people who believe in the true God is very small does not mean that the God they worship does not exist.

Who decides which is the one true god, you? I've witnessed that everyone believes in the one true god. If they didn't, they wouldn't believe, would they?

Muslims believe in a one true god, Allah. Are they wrong?

Jesus said that few would find salvation. That many would go the way of destruction. Does that make God a failure?

Absolutely! He failed miserably.

Does that make Him disappear?

When did he actually appear? Did you see him?

Yes of course most people do not follow the will of the God of Abraham and yes most people who do acknowledge the God of Abraham are on their way to destruction. So what? This fact neither confirms nor debunks the existence of the God of Abraham.

Good point. Disagreeable amongst those who acknowlege god but are on their way to destruction, of course.

Would that include you?

Muslims believe in a one true god, Allah. Are they wrong?No, we only have different perspective, where they see Jesus as a prophet, etc. Allah = God, it's their word for "God" as I have heard.

Why would they have a different perspective on something so absolute as a god? And why would they disagree so vehemently with your perspective?

Wouldn't a god reveal himself the same to everyone?

Sorry, I can't read your mind, you'll need to answer the question.

Think a little bit. If I did not believe what I believe. Then I would not be putting what I believe forward in here would I ? So why even ask that question to me? Your right you cannot read my mind but surely you can discern the obvious.



Who decides which is the one true god, you? I've witnessed that everyone believes in the one true god. If they didn't, they wouldn't believe, would they?

God knows who He is and God knows what His will is and He knows who among those who claim to follow Him actually do. What does it matter if 1000 different schools of thought have 1000 different views on the will of God if they are all different and only one is correct then 999 are false and those who follow them are doomed.



Muslims believe in a one true god, Allah. Are they wrong?

That’s not an easy question. But at the same time it is an easy question. Why?

Because it matters not a jot weather the Allah they believe in is the God of Abraham. There is no point in believing in God but not believing in His will. Satan believes in God and he is destined for the eternal lake of fire. Believing in and accepting the will of God is the key to salvation.

Romans 4:3
For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

See what it say: Abraham believed God, not Abraham believed in God. Believing in God saves no one. Abraham was accounted as rightious because he had faith in Gods will for him.



Jesus said that few would find salvation. That many would go the way of destruction. Does that make God a failure?

Absolutely! He failed miserably.

You measure success and failure on popularity. Sorry God is not a politician dwelling in a democratic heaven.



Does that make Him disappear?

When did he actually appear? Did you see him?

Do you want to be credible or petty?



Yes of course most people do not follow the will of the God of Abraham and yes most people who do acknowledge the God of Abraham are on their way to destruction. So what? This fact neither confirms nor debunks the existence of the God of Abraham.

Good point. Disagreeable amongst those who acknowlege god but are on their way to destruction, of course.

Would that include you?


No. Because I believe God and God forgives me my faults.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

No.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

No motivation? Has one of the Gods told you this? ;)

Islam rejects Jesus because they reject His word and who He is. Therefore they are the ones who are in danger of the eternal lake of fire. You are right you cannot believe in both beliefs because both cannot be correct. Either Jesus is as the Bible states or Jesus is as the koran states. Those who have been loyal to the truth of Jesus will not be condemned but those who are enticed away from the truth by deceivers are doomed.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

OH really Adstar. To my knowledge. Islam is the only NON-Christian religion which MAKES it an article of FAITH to believe in him. If we don't we are not Muslims.

It is you who REJECT "HIS WORD AND WHO HE IS". His words you have corrupted, but who he is, he is a prophet of God!!!!! NOT A GOD, which your corrupted church has taught you about the trinity, which none of Early Christians believed in but which was fully established close to the 4th century, and was a product of 3 centuries.

Peace be unto you :)

Originally Posted by Streamline
Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

Originally Posted by Adstar
No.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days


No motivation? Has one of the Gods told you this? ;)

I believe in His word. He says He is the alpha and omega. I believe.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

OH really Adstar. To my knowledge. Islam is the only NON-Christian religion which MAKES it an article of FAITH to believe in him. If we don't we are not Muslims.

It is you who REJECT "HIS WORD AND WHO HE IS". His words you have corrupted, but who he is, he is a prophet of God!!!!! NOT A GOD, which your corrupted church has taught you about the trinity, which none of Early Christians believed in but which was fully established close to the 4th century, and was a product of 3 centuries.

Peace be unto you :)

You place your faith in a man muhammed you trust that he was visited by an angel of God you trust in it because you agree with the words that are held within the delivered message. So be it. people will be aproved or condemned by what they approve as the Word of God.

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


You see even if an angel visited muhammed and gave him the koran. that does not assure the truth of the revelation. because satan is not the only angel that is in rebellion against God. God allows those who have rejected the Love of the Truth to be deceived by great deception.

So the angel is accursed and muhammed is accursed and all whom have ever believed in that lie of satan called the koran are accursed. And if you do not reject the koran and accept the true Messiah Jesus before your death so shall you be accursed.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Your right you cannot read my mind but surely you can discern the obvious.

So, you refuse to answer the question? Is your view of god the correct view?

What does it matter if 1000 different schools of thought have 1000 different views on the will of God if they are all different and only one is correct then 999 are false and those who follow them are doomed.

Quite simple really, I'm surprised you would ask that question. Would you rather be part of the 999 and be doomed? You will never know until the day of judgment, would you?

Why would anyone choose religion at all if they knew they only had a one in a thousand chance of following the correct god? I suspect though, the odds are much higher than that considering the variety of religions and views of god.

Believing in and accepting the will of God is the key to salvation.

That's what all theists believe, isn't it? You contradict yourself.

No. Because I believe God and God forgives me my faults.

So do all other theists, again, you contradict yourself.

Here is a perfect example of your contradictions:

786: "It is you who REJECT "HIS WORD AND WHO HE IS"."

And your rebuttal:

"And if you do not reject the koran and accept the true Messiah Jesus before your death so shall you be accursed."

It appears you are both doomed.

You place your faith in a man muhammed you trust that he was visited by an angel of God you trust in it because you agree with the words that are held within the delivered message. So be it. people will be aproved or condemned by what they approve as the Word of God.

Galatians 1
6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.


You see even if an angel visited muhammed and gave him the koran. that does not assure the truth of the revelation. because satan is not the only angel that is in rebellion against God. God allows those who have rejected the Love of the Truth to be deceived by great deception.

So the angel is accursed and muhammed is accursed and all whom have ever believed in that lie of satan called the koran are accursed. And if you do not reject the koran and accept the true Messiah Jesus before your death so shall you be accursed.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

And why do you accuse me of believing Muhammad (pbuh) because he was visited by an Angel? Did I say that is the reason I believe him?

You used an arguement which I guess you overlooked can be easily used against you. That word is of Paul. You believe in a man you was persecuting Christians, and tah dah!!!! He sees Jesus (pbuh) and falls to the ground!!!!. You can ask your historians who is really the minds behind Christianity, Jesus or Paul!!!

And you take the words of Paul!!! Even Paul says that there are other Bible preaching a "different gospel". How is it that there gospel is wrong. Obviously for Paul he is preaching the "right" gospel and the others are preaching the "wrong" gospel.

Peace be unto you :)

Adstar,

One more think I'm pretty sure Paul preached the 1 John 5:7 to the so-called followers of Christ, cuz now it is proven fabrication!!!!

Peace be unto you :)

And why do you accuse me of believing Muhammad (pbuh) because he was visited by an Angel? Did I say that is the reason I believe him?

You used an arguement which I guess you overlooked can be easily used against you. That word is of Paul. You believe in a man you was persecuting Christians, and tah dah!!!! He sees Jesus (pbuh) and falls to the ground!!!!. You can ask your historians who is really the minds behind Christianity, Jesus or Paul!!!

And you take the words of Paul!!! Even Paul says that there are other Bible preaching a "different gospel". How is it that there gospel is wrong. Obviously for Paul he is preaching the "right" gospel and the others are preaching the "wrong" gospel.

Peace be unto you :)

As I mentioned before, who is to say that "Paul" himself wasn't influenced by "Satan" or another evil force? Or any of the NT authors weren't? If you notice in the NT, "Paul" refers to "my gospel"? Why was it "his" gospel and not just THE gospel? Does it kind of make you wonder?

And, of course, the Jews won't have any of this. Is there any objective reason besides the NT's own claim to believe the NT authors, etc weren't themselves influenced by Satan or another evil force? It can't be because they preach against Satan/an evil force/evil, cause the Qur'an also does that, right? And some Christians believe the Qur'an is from Satan. It can't be because it preaches some good morals, because other books do that, right?

Also, the interesting I see from what "Paul" said is that an "angel from heaven" could preach something different than what he had preached. Notice that he doesn't mention a "fallen angel" or "demons" or "Satan" in this passage, but rather an "angel from heaven". Why would he be concerned about the possibility of an "angel from heaven" preaching something different than he was preaching, unless what he was preaching was not in reality "the truth"?

I'm not entirely sure of the big distinction between believing God and believing in God, for there's this verse:

2nd Chronicles 20:20

And they rose early in the morning, and went forth into the wilderness of Tekoa: and as they went forth, Jehoshaphat stood and said, Hear me, O Judah, and ye inhabitants of Jerusalem; Believe in the LORD your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.

And John 14:1

Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

No. Because I believe God and God forgives me my faults.

So do all other theists, again, you contradict yourself.

Here is a perfect example of your contradictions:

786: "It is you who REJECT "HIS WORD AND WHO HE IS"."

And your rebuttal:

"And if you do not reject the koran and accept the true Messiah Jesus before your death so shall you be accursed."

It appears you are both doomed.

what kind of crazy logic does your mind run on?

Two contradictory statements cannot both be right. They can of course both be wrong. But in no way can both be right. Maybe you cannot see the obvious?



Why would anyone choose religion at all if they knew they only had a one in a thousand chance of following the correct god? I suspect though, the odds are much higher than that considering the variety of religions and views of god.

There is no chance or gamble involved. One either believes in the truth or one does not. I am either saved or i am doomed.



What does it matter if 1000 different schools of thought have 1000 different views on the will of God if they are all different and only one is correct then 999 are false and those who follow them are doomed.

Quite simple really, I'm surprised you would ask that question. Would you rather be part of the 999 and be doomed? You will never know until the day of judgment, would you?

I believe in the Word of God and trust in His promise. You talk of chances but what chance do you have? A person who does not believe in God at all?

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Also, the interesting I see from what "Paul" said is that an "angel from heaven" could preach something different than what he had preached. Notice that he doesn't mention a "fallen angel" or "demons" or "Satan" in this passage, but rather an "angel from heaven". Why would he be concerned about the possibility of an "angel from heaven" preaching something different than he was preaching, unless what he was preaching was not in reality "the truth"?

You think that satan is the only angel in rebellion against God? take a read of John's prophesy.

Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

You think that satan is the only angel in rebellion against God? take a read of John's prophesy.

Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well, let me ask you this, are Satan and his angels here on earth, with free reign to go back into heaven? The usual position of the Bible of an "angel" in heaven would be one who's on God's side, isn't it? There's this verse:

Revelation 14:6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

An angel flying in the midst of heaven, who seems to be on God's side.

Also, I find it extremely odd that an omnipotent God would allow Satan and his angels free reign, not only on earth, but access to heaven. Seems like he'd put a stop to that, and soon.

Two contradictory statements cannot both be right. They can of course both be wrong.

Exactly, that has been my point all along, they ARE both wrong.

If a god does in fact exist, it is neither one you both believe to be, therefore you're doomed simply because you worship false gods.

Maybe you cannot see the obvious?

That was the obvious.

One either believes in the truth or one does not. I am either saved or i am doomed.

That would not be true if only one person knew the truth and would most likely not be true if believed by even a group - but it may very well be true if everyone knew the truth.

I believe in the Word of God and trust in His promise. You talk of chances but what chance do you have? A person who does not believe in God at all?

Affirmations for you and patronizing for me? Was there some flash of doubt in your mind that you might not be that one-in-a-thousand?

My chances? Same as yours - when both of us are in the ground, its party time for all the little wormies.

And that, as they say, is that.

Ok, I'm just going to answer the intial question of the thread.

The reason that belief in the "son" reffering to Jesus (pbuh) is so important is because he was the prophet of God, and had he Word of God, thus rejecting or refusing to believe him is refusing to believe the prophet but importantly refusing to believe the Word of God, which mean refusing to believe he commands of God.

Believing as the "son" as God is not important, but believing as the "son" NOT to be God is really important!!!. If someone wishes to discuss this visit my thread http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=44354 and be sure to look at http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=30133 so you don't repeat the verses unless there is more to it.

Peace be unto you :)

Just as we can believe there is a God above us, that explain our living conditions; do you think God believes in a God above Him that explains His existance?

No.

No motivation? Has one of the Gods told you this? ;)

I believe in His word. He says He is the alpha and omega. I believe.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

How can our God know that there is not a stealthy God above him. Just as we cannot know if there is a stealthy God above us, our God cannot know either! No matter what your faith tells you, this is a point of logic that no faith can answer better.

Uh.. I can't - I have been blinded, so sayeth god. That was the very point I was making.



Dude, my mind has been blinded so I cannot see the light of the gospel of christ. Of course I bloody well don't see - I've been blinded. Duh.



I can't.. I've been blinded - so sayeth god.



Blind men often trip over a rock - because they're blind and can't see it.

I have been made blind. Don't try and blame me for it.I don't think you are blind. But you seem to expect too much.

I don't think you are blind.

It is of no consequence what you think. The bible is a higher authority than you, and it clearly states that I have indeed been blinded. You have no case.

But you seem to expect too much.

And you make that estimation based upon what?

Q One either believes in the truth or one does not. I am either saved or i am doomed.

That would not be true if only one person knew the truth and would most likely not be true if believed by even a group - but it may very well be true if everyone knew the truth.

Once again you think that the truth is established by popular consent. Sorry it does not work out that way with God. Time and time again the Bible tells of only small minorities believing in the truth God and accepting His will.

Biblical prophesy states of the End Times:

Luke 17:
26And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

Guess how many people where right with God then?

2 Peter 2:
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;

Jesus made this statement about His return:

Luke 8
8 I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?”

So don't be surprised that so few follow Him in the true Faith.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Once again you think that the truth is established by popular consent. Sorry it does not work out that way with God.

I don't know where you get the idea of popular consent, I never once said that. So, obviously, you misunderstood me or I haven't made myself clear. I'll try once again.

If god reveals himself to people, as claimed by theists, then god would have had to reveal himself to ALL people, not just one or a group, but ALL people. ALL people would therefore have a crystal clear understanding of god, equally and unequivocally. In other words, god would be imbedded in EVERYONES mind. That is his intent. One may therefore reject that understanding in order for free will to exist.

It is utterly useless for everyone to have misunderstandings and misconceptions of god, exactly for the reasons YOU have just quoted from scriptures.

Is that any clearer?

Well, let me ask you this, are Satan and his angels here on earth, with free reign to go back into heaven? The usual position of the Bible of an "angel" in heaven would be one who's on God's side, isn't it?

Not sure if satan still has access to heaven it all depends if the Revelation prophesy has come to pass: I think He is earth bound now.

Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

But the fact that satan has had and may still have freedom of movement between heaven and earth is established in the Book of Job.

Job 1:7
And the LORD said to Satan, “From where do you come?” So Satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”

And

Job 2:2
And the LORD said to satan, “From where do you come?” satan answered the LORD and said, “From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.”





Revelation 14:6: And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

An angel flying in the midst of heaven, who seems to be on God's side.

I never stated that there where not Angels in Heaven Loyal to God? Micheal is one of them. The angel spoken of in Revelation 14:6 is another one of them.



Also, I find it extremely odd that an omnipotent God would allow Satan and his angels free reign, not only on earth, but access to heaven. Seems like he'd put a stop to that, and soon.

It may be odd to you but the book of Job gives a hint as to why God allows satan to do what he does in a "restrained" manner. satan must be allowed to demonstrate to the Heavenly Host why he is worthy of destruction Just as God has demonstrated to the Heavenly Host by His actions that He is truly justified in being the Only God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

It may be odd to you but the book of Job gives a hint as to why God allows satan to do what he does in a "restrained" manner. satan must be allowed to demonstrate to the Heavenly Host why he is worthy of destruction Just as God has demonstrated to the Heavenly Host by His actions that He is truly justified in being the Only God.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Satan has to demonstrate to the other angels that he is worthy of destruction? Ok.. once again, that sounds odd to me, because just how long would such a demonstration take? If just one sin is enough to make one worthy of eternal death in a Christian viewpoint, why wouldn't the same apply to Satan? The "Heavenly Host" needs to be fully convinced over thousands of years of Satan's "evil", but all it takes from a human is one minor sin, or even worse, merely being born, to warrant destruction?

"Interesting".

But, I'm getting off topic, so I guess I'll stop here.

Satan has to demonstrate to the other angels that he is worthy of destruction? Ok.. once again, that sounds odd to me, because just how long would such a demonstration take? If just one sin is enough to make one worthy of eternal death in a Christian viewpoint, why wouldn't the same apply to Satan? The "Heavenly Host" needs to be fully convinced over thousands of years of Satan's "evil", but all it takes from a human is one minor sin, or even worse, merely being born, to warrant destruction?

"Interesting".

But, I'm getting off topic, so I guess I'll stop here.

No keep talking. I think my discussion with Streamline has petered out anyway. most of the thread meander into different topics. :)

You bring up a very interesting point. about the time it takes for the heveanly host to see the reality.

let me post another verse:

2 Peter 3
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Now Christian's often say that 1000 years is like a day to the Lord. But they never say that 1 day is like a thousand years to the Lord.

But the verse says both. And both are correct. God does not exist in universal time but interacts with universal time. So the long time we think it is taking bears No relevance to what is happening or what could already have happened in Heavens realm. If you read much of biblical prophecy it is often spoken in past tense. The book of Revelation is a prophetical book where Johns descriptions of future events are written by John as if they have already happened.


Hard to get your mind around, hey :)

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

the belief in the son is not important. his divinity, and for that matter, the entire concept of the holy trinity has no basis in original scripture (meaning the old testament). as im sure a lot of people here must be aware of, jesus officially became the son of the christian god with the establishment of the Nicene Creed after the conclusion of the church's first ecumenical council mandated by Emperor Constantine in 325 AD. prior to that the christian church was divided into literally hundreds of different sects, all with varying degrees of belief in the divinity and validity of jesus as a character. the major christian movement at the time that believed in jesus as a man made divine by god, and not specifically the son of god, was called Arianism, and was thoroughly outlawed and persecuted from the end of the council onward until most of its leaders and documents were destroyed. the reason the belief in jesus as the divine son of god has become so pervasive is that the church undertook a campaign of genocide and brutal suppression in the name of pre-empting any other points of view from taking center stage, or indeed, even being recognized as anything but radical fringe movements.
in short, its all politics.