View Full Version : Why is a meteor worshipped at Mecca? What's it's significance?


Medicine*Woman
01-12-09, 09:38 AM
*************
M*W: Just read a post from another thread about a meteor being worshipped at Mecca. What's this about? What's the history of the meteor? Why is it significant to Muslims? I'd like to know more about it.

Thanks for all your replies.

~ M*W

The Evelyonian
01-12-09, 03:23 PM
From the Wikipedia article on the Black Stone.

According to Islamic tradition, the Stone fell from Heaven to show Adam and Eve where to build an altar and offer a sacrifice to God. The Altar became the first temple on Earth. Muslims believe that the stone was originally pure and dazzling white, but has since turned black because of the sins it has absorbed over the years. Islamic tradition holds that Adam's altar and the stone were lost in the process of Noah's Flood and forgotten. It was Abraham who found the Black Stone at the original site of Adam's altar when the Archangel Gabriel revealed it to him. Abraham ordered his son--and the ancestor of Prophet Muhammad--Ishmael to build a new temple in which to imbed the Stone. This new temple is the Kaaba in Mecca.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Stone

cosmictraveler
01-12-09, 04:30 PM
Now that makes allot of sense, start a religion and base it on a meteorite! Strange the Inuits didn't think of that near the North Pole.

Michael
01-12-09, 07:00 PM
Meteorites were worshiped by cultures all over the world as gifts from the Gods. Everyone from Tibetans to Inuits!

The meteorite in Mecca is pre Islamic-myth traditions.

Syzygys
01-12-09, 07:02 PM
Shininess

PsychoticEpisode
01-12-09, 07:58 PM
Shininess

LOL!!!! Like crows.

firdroirich
01-13-09, 07:21 AM
I posted at the end of this (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34534&page=3) page. The inscribed shape from the square on those numbers is like a 'G', the symbol of 'the builders' but also used in some sufi traditions. A member knowing the symbol would know to place the symbol on the magic square, deciphering it's meaning.

The significance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornerstone) of a cornerstone in society (wikipedia). The 'charcoal' also inspired the naming of another secret society, the Carbonari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonari)

cosmictraveler
01-13-09, 08:42 AM
Shininess

Actually it is very dull as are all meterorites.

The most wellknown - and probably most talked about- example of meteorite worship in newer time is in the Islamic tradition. In spite of the banning of any making a picture of God and the ban of worship and adoration of any objects, in the central sanctuary of all Muslimes, the Kaaba in Mecca,there is a black stone, which each Mecca-pilgrim kisses after his tour around the sanctuary. This stone, by the Muslims called "Hadschar al Aswad" (black stone) or according to the Prophet "Yamin Allah" (the right hand of God), is supposedly a Bethel-stone from the times of Abraham and is taken by numerous modern scientists for a meteorite. Many muslim scholars however deny this in order to put out of question each suspicion of a possible idol worship in Islam. Unfortunately by this religious reservedness until today it is not clarified unambiguously whether the Hadschar is now of cosmic origin or not.

http://www.haberer-meteorite.de/english/Culture%20and%20religion.htm


http://www.travel-images.com/az-kaaba-bkstone.jpg

Syzygys
01-13-09, 09:16 AM
Actually it is very dull as are all meterorites.

That's because the Muslims do not polish it hard enough...

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 10:33 AM
a meteor being worshipped at Mecca

Its not worshipped. Its just historical and may not even be the original its claimed to be.

GeoffP
01-13-09, 10:40 AM
One thing I can say for MW is that she despises all religions equally. I don't know if that's inherently good or bad...but there it is.

Syzygys
01-13-09, 12:40 PM
Sounds like worship to me:

"When pilgrims circle the Kaaba as part of the Tawaf ritual of the Hajj, many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone, emulating the kiss that it received from the Islamic prophet Muhammad."

It is also shiny now, due to lots of kisses:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Blackstone.JPG/180px-Blackstone.JPG

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 12:42 PM
Its Sunnah to kiss the stone, like its Sunnah to keep a beard, thats not worship.

Anyway, its all gibberish if you ask me.

Captain Kremmen
01-13-09, 01:33 PM
Sounds like worship to me:

"
It is also shiny now, due to lots of kisses:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Blackstone.JPG/180px-Blackstone.JPG

Aren't they a bit embarrassed kissing that in public?

cosmictraveler
01-13-09, 01:39 PM
The actual meteorite is located inside of that shinny container. If you look hard through the glass on the very front of the container you can just make it out, a dark dull mass.

Syzygys
01-13-09, 01:53 PM
I don't see glass, or at least it is hard to tell. it is a silver bedding for the rock and I would say it is shiny for centuries of kissing. You bet it wasn't behind glass in the last 1000+ years....

cosmictraveler
01-13-09, 01:55 PM
You bet it wasn't behind glass in the last 1000+ years....



"Glass has been used for various kinds of bottles and utensils, mirrors, windows and more. It is thought to have been first created around 3000 BC, during the bronze age. Egyptian glass beads date back to about 2500 BC."



http://inventors.about.com/od/gstartinventions/a/glass.htm

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 01:57 PM
Aren't they a bit embarrassed kissing that in public?

No. It has quite a history.


Muhammad is credited with playing a key part in the history of the Black Stone. In 602, before the first of his prophetic revelations, he was present in Mecca during the rebuilding of the Kaaba. The Black Stone had been temporarily removed while a new structure was being constructed. A story found in Ibn Ishaq's Sirah Rasul Allah (as reconstructed and translated by Guillaume) shows Muhammad settling a quarrel between Meccan clans as to which clan should set the Black Stone in place. His solution was to have all the clan elders raise the cornerstone on a cloak, and then Muhammad set the Stone into its final place with his own hands

Its a symbol of diplomacy and unity.

http://www.internetcurrentevents.com/Kaaba.jpg

Captain Kremmen
01-13-09, 02:37 PM
Who made that stupid looking case for it?
I bet it was one of those numbskull Saudi Princes.

Syzygys
01-13-09, 03:20 PM
"Glass has been used for various kinds of


Thanks prof for the history of glass, but that wasn't the issue. When did we start to put objects behind glass for protection???

Also, I am still not sure there is a glass to protect it....

Michael
01-13-09, 05:11 PM
ShininessJust one quick comment - Love the Avatar!!! :thumbsup:

Michael
01-13-09, 05:26 PM
To me it seems like idolatry. Why venerate another stupid rock? And this isn't a case of people admiring a historical item - they think it's somehow magical.

Idolatry is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object, as opposed to the worship of a monotheistic God.

Worship usually refers to acts of religious devotion.

* prayer;
* sacrifice;
* rituals;
* meditation;
* holidays, festivals;
* sacraments;
* pilgrimages;
* music or singing;
* dance;
* eating food;
* readings from sacred books;
* listening to a talk or sermon;
* the construction of temples or shrines;
* the creation of idols of the deity.
* private acts of devotion

The current ritual of the Hajj involves pilgrims attempting to kiss the Black Stone seven times (once for each circumambulation of the Kaaba). Some Muslims also accept this hadith, from Tirmidhi, which asserts that at the Last Judgement (Qiyamah), the Black Stone will speak for those who kissed it:

"It was narrated that Ibn ‘Abbas said: The Messenger of Allah said concerning the Stone: "By Allah, Allah will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have two eyes with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who touched it in sincerity." "[15]




No Idolatry here folks, now just move along, move a long quickly please, other threads coming through... :p

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 05:28 PM
hmm you're right. Clearly you're in a position to know more about this stuff. Muslims worship the black stone

Michael
01-13-09, 05:40 PM
From a person who wanted to make the point "Islam is better than Xianity because it's never split into separate religions" :D hahahaaa THAT'S a good one too, *cough* Baha'i *cough* I'd say you're too close to the subject to be subjective.

You just don't want to admit idolatry is central to Islam because you are Muslim.

If you were an anthropologist and discovered some Islanders venerating and kissing their magical meteorite that their One God sent them (all while thinking one day after they die it's going to talk to them) well, you'd clearly identify this as idolatry. For me, it's just as easy and clear to see that the Muslims that walk around this silly rock and kiss it are superstitious simple people practicing idolatry with their magical sky-rock sent from their magical sky-daddy. Who magically split the moon in two and once even their magical prophet rode a magical fairy creature up to the magical heaven and looked around. Then he climbed down a magical bean-stalk slipped on a rock (that later became magical because his magical toe touched it) and sometime after that someone built a magical dome around it and it's been fighting ever since....

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 05:55 PM
hmm yes you're right; that's exactly what people do in Mecca

Michael
01-13-09, 06:12 PM
hmmm yes, good that's exactly settled.

John99
01-13-09, 06:14 PM
There must be more to the rock. Did it come down and hit someone during battle?

Orleander
01-13-09, 06:20 PM
To me it seems like idolatry. Why venerate another stupid rock? And this isn't a case of people admiring a historical item - they think it's somehow magical.....

yeah, kinda like a cross. I wonder what they would have done if Jesus had drank too much wine and fallen off a donkey and broke his neck.:D

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 06:28 PM
There must be more to the rock. Did it come down and hit someone during battle?

Nobody knows the origin of the rock. It is assumed to be a meteorite but I do not believe anyone has actually verified that assertion. There are many stories attached to it, the most convincing of which in my opinion is that it comes from the Wabar craters and may be an artifact of silica fused by the intense heat of a meteorite. There are legends of a city in Wabar which was destroyed by a fire from heaven, which fits the notion of a meteorite. The stone isnsaid to have disappeared for 20 years and then returned, so it's not certain it's the same stone. Also it's not one piece, it was shattered at some point in it's history and is made up of several pieces fused with cement

Medicine*Woman
01-13-09, 06:54 PM
One thing I can say for MW is that she despises all religions equally. I don't know if that's inherently good or bad...but there it is.

*************
M*W: How does my question in this thread point to hating Islam? If I wanted to spew hatred, I think I know the right words to use for it.

John99
01-13-09, 06:56 PM
Could be S.A.M. but supposedly that impact was 260 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wabar_craters


Fission-track analysis of glass fragments by Storzer suggested the Wabar impact took place thousands of years ago, but the fact that the craters have been filled-in considerably since Philby visited them suggests their origin is much more recent. Thermoluminescence dating by Prescott, Robinson, E. Shoemaker, C. Shoemaker, and Wynn (JGR, 2004) suggest the impact site is no more than 260 years old. Arab reports of a fireball passing over Riyadh, variously reported as occurring in 1863 or 1891, indicate the impact may have occurred very recently. Fragments scattered from the path of this fireball match samples found at the Wabar site.

S.A.M.
01-13-09, 06:59 PM
Like I said there are many stories; the story of the city of Ubar is in the Quran

swarm
01-13-09, 07:33 PM
Without a doubt religion is great for the veneration of stupidity.

Michael
01-13-09, 07:43 PM
yeah, kinda like a cross. I wonder what they would have done if Jesus had drank too much wine and fallen off a donkey and broke his neck.:DHaha! Can you imagine all these Xians lined up to kiss a sacred ass :p

Oh, not idolatry though, no no no.... *smooches donkey ass*

It is said, by The Messenger concerning the magical Ass bung-hole: "By Gawd, Gawd will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have one bung hole with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who tongued it in sincerity.

:D

Michael
01-13-09, 08:05 PM
NOTE: Tonguing a magical bunghole in hopes to curry favor with the magical sky-daddies is NOT, I repeat, NOT idolatry.... it's only tradition :p

John99
01-13-09, 08:07 PM
uh mike. that is not limited to religion.

Medicine*Woman
01-13-09, 08:11 PM
Haha! Can you imagine all these Xians lined up to kiss a sacred ass :p

Oh, not idolatry though, no no no.... *smooches donkey ass*

It is said, by The Messenger concerning the magical Ass bung-hole: "By Gawd, Gawd will bring it forth on the Day of Resurrection, and it will have one bung hole with which it will see and a tongue with which it will speak, and it will testify in favour of those who tongued it in sincerity.

:D
*************
M*W: I can imagine it. When I was at St. Peter's in Rome, there were hords lined up to kiss the foot of the relatively small bronze statue of St. Peter. Over the years so many people had kissed the right foot of St. Peter that it had actually rubbed the front quarter of the foot off! By the time I got to St. Peter's foot to kiss it myself, a revelation of stupidity overcame me instead of the awe this whole thing was supposed to have inspired. I couldn't get over the fact that people from all over the world were lined up to kiss it, and I wondered why I was just another fool standing in that line.

Michael
01-13-09, 09:01 PM
hehe.... I can just imagine. I suppose kissing is intimate and it'd be too much to kiss a statue of God, so, kissing a magical foot or a magical stone is close enough to the Gods to make it feel like it's worthwhile...

I've come to the conclusion that some people simply lack the essential combination of proteins to form the neural connections that make it possible to recognize this.

You know... that makes me think of something I will post in linguistics.

John99
01-13-09, 09:06 PM
people kiss lots of things. you can kiss the Blarney Stone as well.


The origins of the Blarney Stone's magical properties aren't clear, but one legend says that an old woman cast a spell on the stone to reward a king who had saved her from drowning. Kissing the stone while under the spell gave the king the ability to speak sweetly and convincingly. �It's tough to reach the stone -- it's between the main castle wall and the parapet. Kissers have to stretch to their back and bend backward (and downward), holding iron bars for support.

i can believe that because i know a few old witches.:)

Michael
01-13-09, 09:17 PM
hehe... ... ... irrationality isn't limited to religion, that's why Casinos do such good business. Also, nothing wrong with doing something for the fun in it, BUT, when you really believe it and it's part of your religion, well, then it's called idolatry .

John99
01-13-09, 09:21 PM
i would think so too.

Captain Kremmen
01-14-09, 05:51 AM
*************
M*W: I can imagine it. When I was at St. Peter's in Rome, there were hords lined up to kiss the foot of the relatively small bronze statue of St. Peter. Over the years so many people had kissed the right foot of St. Peter that it had actually rubbed the front quarter of the foot off! By the time I got to St. Peter's foot to kiss it myself, a revelation of stupidity overcame me instead of the awe this whole thing was supposed to have inspired. I couldn't get over the fact that people from all over the world were lined up to kiss it, and I wondered why I was just another fool standing in that line.

Why didn't you kiss the left foot?
What makes the right foot so special?

swivel
01-14-09, 07:54 PM
I really, really, really would enjoy placing a live grenade alongside that rock.

Just for shits and giggles.

PsychoticEpisode
01-14-09, 08:07 PM
It is also shiny now, due to lots of kisses:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Blackstone.JPG/180px-Blackstone.JPG

This really looks like some art decco rendition of a bedpan. But a bedpan for what?

Just another custom that's an embarassment to the entire human race.

S.A.M.
01-14-09, 08:14 PM
For shits and giggles apparently

PsychoticEpisode
01-14-09, 08:20 PM
For shits and giggles apparently

Apparently so. Is there a proper way to smooch this thing? Any tonguing, sucking or planting a big sloppy wet one allowed?

S.A.M.
01-14-09, 09:34 PM
No idea, most people just use it for counting the tawaf; it's too crowded to actually get near it. Besides the whole notion is highly unhygienic IMO. I've seen people wave at it from a distance, a more platonic affection, if you will

Medicine*Woman
01-14-09, 09:51 PM
Why didn't you kiss the left foot?
What makes the right foot so special?
*************
M*W: Monkeys see, monkeys do. I kissed the right foot, too, just like everybody else. After waiting in line so long, why not? I forget the magical, wonderful things that were supposed to happen to anyone who kissed it. I wonder if that's where the saying comes from, "Kiss my foot?"

Syzygys
01-14-09, 09:55 PM
Because of the shape of the stone it is actually not that easy to kiss it. (and yes, the shape is like a vagina or well....)

Michael
01-14-09, 11:39 PM
yeah, it does have that Georgia O'keeffe sort of look to it doesn't it?!?! :)

swivel
01-15-09, 07:10 AM
Was it the desert heat that made the Muslims crazy?

charles brough
01-15-09, 08:47 AM
I did some research on this issue. There is good Koran as well as Bible scholarship. Indications are that the pre-Muslim era religion in Arabia was mid-way from evolving out of the mother-goddess religious system common around the world in prehistory. The black rock (perhaps originally a meteorite) was their symbol for Her. With a prominent cleft in it (like the vaginal opening) is was a likely symbol! The new Muslim religion just adopted it---as did Christianity with the old pagan holidays such as Christmas) and made it their holy of holys.

It is of note that it represented the moon goddess which was then called "Allah." The Black Box temple was staffed with a flag with Her moon crescent on it. That is why the crescent is a symbol of Islam.

One thing about religions is that they all have to evolve like everything else. None have ever sprung up in isolation. Evolution is nature!

charles
http://atheistic-science.com

Captain Kremmen
01-15-09, 08:50 AM
http://www.internetcurrentevents.com/Kaaba.jpg
Stone Then
Treated with reverence and dignity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Blackstone.JPG/180px-Blackstone.JPG
Stone Now
Carted around and smooched at by fanatics.

Ah, Progress.

Michael
01-15-09, 05:24 PM
heh....

Michael
01-15-09, 05:27 PM
http://atheistic-science.com
Interesting site :)

S.A.M.
01-15-09, 06:08 PM
Because of the shape of the stone it is actually not that easy to kiss it. (and yes, the shape is like a vagina or well....)

Not at all it's very easy to kiss it.

S.A.M.
01-15-09, 06:10 PM
I did some research on this issue. There is good Koran as well as Bible scholarship. Indications are that the pre-Muslim era religion in Arabia was mid-way from evolving out of the mother-goddess religious system common around the world in prehistory. The black rock (perhaps originally a meteorite) was their smbol for Her. With a prominent cleft in it (like the vaginal opening) is was a likely symbol!

charles
http://atheistic-science.com

Could you cite me your sources?

Medicine*Woman
01-15-09, 08:08 PM
I did some research on this issue. There is good Koran as well as Bible scholarship. Indications are that the pre-Muslim era religion in Arabia was mid-way from evolving out of the mother-goddess religious system common around the world in prehistory. The black rock (perhaps originally a meteorite) was their symbol for Her. With a prominent cleft in it (like the vaginal opening) is was a likely symbol! The new Muslim religion just adopted it---as did Christianity with the old pagan holidays such as Christmas) and made it their holy of holys.

It is of note that it represented the moon goddess which was then called "Allah." The Black Box temple was staffed with a flag with Her moon crescent on it. That is why the crescent is a symbol of Islam.

One thing about religions is that they all have to evolve like everything else. None have ever sprung up in isolation. Evolution is nature!

charles
http://atheistic-science.com
*************
M*W: It sort of reminds me of an infant's head emerging from the birth canal.

Michael
01-15-09, 08:52 PM
I thought it looked like a bent chrome hubcap. But yeah I could imagine a silver sculpture of a robotic vagina.

krokah
01-16-09, 04:08 AM
It kinda looks like one of those old fashion bedpans...snicker...

swivel
01-16-09, 07:11 AM
I can't believe anyone dumb enough to worship a meteor in a bedpan could learn to steer a passenger jet.

S.A.M.
01-16-09, 07:59 AM
Considering they hung out in bars, I don't think they were in any danger of being too religious.

Michael
01-17-09, 08:15 PM
I can't believe anyone dumb enough to worship a meteor in a bedpan could learn to steer a passenger jet.Just shows you how easy it is to steer a plane into a building!


Considering they hung out in bars, I don't think they were in any danger of being too religious.Haa! Are you suggesting if they were more religious they'd have been too dumb to successfully steer the plane!

swivel
01-17-09, 09:35 PM
Haa! Are you suggesting if they were more religious they'd have been too dumb to successfully steer the plane!

That was how I read it.

And if SAM is smart enough to know how dumb devout Muslims are, it calls the strength of HER faith into question.

S.A.M.
01-17-09, 09:45 PM
I was merely correcting the assumption that they were religious. I don't think its particularly smart to fly into a building.

Michael
01-17-09, 10:08 PM
By what? Assuming because they were seen in a bar they were not Muslims? I know a hell of a lot of Muslims that like to drink a beer. It's pretty obvious that it take some sort of belief in something to volunteer to purposefully commit suicide.

swivel
01-18-09, 10:47 AM
I guess it is hard to pick up 10-year-olds in a bar, which is why SAM is doubting their faith.

S.A.M.
01-18-09, 11:33 AM
See how they run! :D

Any more questions about the Kaaba or the Sang-e-aswad/hajr-e-aswad?

Here is a closer view, as you can see, the stones themselves are in the center in pieces and quite small

http://islamgreatreligion.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/black-stone.jpg

Vega
01-18-09, 11:55 AM
The ignorant racist hateful islamists who are intolerant of other faiths are actually worshipping shiva lingem of lord shiva. Muhammad twisted hindu teachings and created his own thing. But it is historical fact that 360 murtee's were housed in the kaaba temple and muhammad the demon destoryed them when he formed islam. His pagan hindu arabic tribe qureshi worshipped the moon good al-lah which is basically the lord shiva.

S.A.M.
01-18-09, 11:58 AM
historical fact

360 murtis?

You should inform the Stanford University. Their current position is that the "pagans" referred to in the Quran may be Christians. ie idol worshippers.

Vega
01-18-09, 12:12 PM
Mohammad was in habit of kissing things. Did Hadiths mention that the ladies in the Harem (perhaps Ayesha) could tell when Mohammad had tasted honey

swarm
01-18-09, 02:54 PM
Here is a closer view, as you can see, the stones themselves are in the center in pieces and quite small

Nothing like examining a religion closely to highlight just how stupid religion is.

S.A.M.
01-18-09, 03:04 PM
Interestingly, a young explorer went looking for the ruins of Ubar [which he mispronounced as Wabar] after reading about the black stone.

And found the city. Stupidity therefore, is a point of view.

(Q)
01-18-09, 03:16 PM
Stupidity therefore, is a point of view.

Really? I thought it was doing something that you knew better not to do.

S.A.M.
01-18-09, 03:30 PM
Not if you believe in relative merit. The distance between stupidity and genius is inversely proportional to the probability of failure.

If you achieve the goal, you're an intrepid and daring explorer who discovered the city of Wabar. If you fail, you're a superstitious idiot.

Michael
01-18-09, 05:08 PM
There's nothing wrong with reading about some people who worship a magical space-stone and then searching for their city. If you find it - great, if not, well, that says something as well.

This really says nothing about the idolatry of the people who worshiped the magical space-stone.

SAM's thinking is quite funny: She spends a week trying to make the point "real" Muslims don't worship a magical space-stone! Naw, that's stupid! And hey, We Muslims are better than that! (not like pesty Xian - they're idolaters). Why, them there stones peaces, why, thems just plain old place markers, yup them is. *turns to face said magical space-stones to say her 5 prayers to said magical space-stones magical space god*.

It's really funny when you think about it,
MII

S.A.M.
01-18-09, 06:18 PM
SAM's thinking is also beyond your [limited] comprehension.

Michael
01-18-09, 08:25 PM
yeah, I lack the ability to truly believe in magical sky-daddies or sky-mommies or sky-aliens

Here I'll try: Xenu is real, Xenu is real, Xenu is real.
Nope.
I'll try again: Allah is real, Allah is real, Allah is real.
Nope
I'll try again: Athena is real, Athena is real, Athena is real.
Nope.
I'll try again: Santa is real, Santa is real, Santa is real

You're right, I can not truly comprehend what is must be like to honestly believe in Xenu, Allah, Athena or Santa Clause. Such is beyond my limited comprehension. Although, to be fair, I can't say as I would like to live my life worrying about what Xenu or Santa or Allah or whatever ... ... just seems silly to me.

M

Michael
01-18-09, 08:28 PM
I wonder SAM, what of the Muslims that kiss the "magical" sky-stones in hopes that will some day speak to them? Can you comprehend them? Can you kiss the stones and TRULY BELIEVE that they will talk to you ... or is that beyond your comprehension?


What about Allah, She going to talk to you someday?

swarm
01-18-09, 09:07 PM
Interestingly, a young explorer went looking for the ruins of Ubar [which he mispronounced as Wabar] after reading about the black stone.

And found the city. Stupidity therefore, is a point of view.

You seem to be talking about British explorer, Harry St. John "Abdullah" Philby who looked for the city of "Wabar," but instead found an unrelated meteor impact crater (dated to 1704 ce) which he called Wabar.

The site is on note as one of the 17 out of some 300 impact sites where conditions preserved some of the impact material.

Its worth noting that he came really close to killing himself in the process.

His son Kim was a top deep soviet agent in MI6.

PsychoticEpisode
01-18-09, 09:43 PM
What good comes from kissing space debris anyways? How has it affected the Muslims, good or bad?

swarm
01-19-09, 03:26 AM
Well the hadj is famous for crushing people to death in mob hysteria. I think a bunch of people suffocated once too.

S.A.M.
01-19-09, 03:40 AM
What good comes from kissing space debris anyways? How has it affected the Muslims, good or bad?

Kissing the debris as you call it, is just one of the rituals of umra or Haj. How has it affected Muslims? For better or worse, it keeps us as one people. Even if the Kaaba were to go away tomorrow, it would just be rebuilt, in and of itself, neither the Kaaba nor the stones have any value. They are just symbols of a shared history, an incentive to ask questions about the past of Islam, much like everything else in Mecca.

PsychoticEpisode
01-19-09, 09:52 PM
Kissing the debris as you call it, is just one of the rituals of umra or Haj. How has it affected Muslims? For better or worse, it keeps us as one people.

Are Christians & Jews allowed to kiss it?

Has the space rock ever been analyze as to composition? What's it made of?

swarm
01-20-09, 08:18 AM
THe black rock actually looks like the slag which formed from the impact of a meteor or from volcanic activity. This tends to be 90ish% fused glass from local sands and 5-10% iron/nickle and oxides. Here is some from the Wabar impact sitehttp://www.b14643.de/Tektites/Wabar_1.jpg and a nice collection of similar glasses of volcanic and meteoric origin: http://www.b14643.de/Tektites/index.htm

S.A.M.
01-20-09, 08:20 AM
Are Christians & Jews allowed to kiss it?

Has the space rock ever been analyze as to composition? What's it made of?

Christians and Jews have been forbidden in Mecca since the Sauds started controlling Hejaz. Except when they let in French soldiers etc

No, its never been analysed. Besides, there is no way of knowing if its the original black rock anyway.

Michael
01-20-09, 05:25 PM
Do you think that these magical stones will speak to you after you are dead IF you kiss them?

How about Allah or Mohammad? Do you think that these magical beings will speak to you after you are dead IF you pray to them?


I think that this is why the rocks are fascinating. How can a person, on the one hand, recognize that these people believe in kissing the magical rocks in the hopes that will help them after they are dead, while in the other, pray to magical beings in hopes they will help them after they are dead? It's odd, really.

S.A.M.
01-20-09, 05:27 PM
One of the common stories associated with the black rock.


When Umar ibn al-Khattab (580-644), the second Caliph, came to kiss the Stone, he said in front of all assembled: "No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither harm anyone nor benefit anyone. Had I not seen Allah's Messenger [Muhammad] kissing you, I would not have kissed you."

Also the Saudis are pretty good about standing there and telling anyone who looks too worshipful, Its only sunnah, don't make it shirk.

They also do this at the Muqaam-e-Ibrahim.

PsychoticEpisode
01-20-09, 08:11 PM
Christians and Jews have been forbidden in Mecca since the Sauds started controlling Hejaz. Except when they let in French soldiers etc

No, its never been analysed. Besides, there is no way of knowing if its the original black rock anyway.

Rock kissing is something I would consider paranormal. Yes, millions have done it but what is driving them to do it? What is the enticement, the allure, the reward for bussing a boulder?

S.A.M.
01-20-09, 08:15 PM
No idea, but its a pretty old tradition. You must have heard of the Blarney stone?

PsychoticEpisode
01-20-09, 08:20 PM
I have. In Newfoundland they have a ceremony for first time visitors where they make you an honorary Newfoundlander by Kissing the Cod. Now everyone knows its just for fun so I wonder if the meteor liplock started as a joke and somewhere along the line it became serious.

S.A.M.
01-20-09, 08:22 PM
Like I said, it was a part of an earlier structure and became a point of diplomacy after the structure was rebuilt. Kissing is a very Arab thing.

PsychoticEpisode
01-20-09, 08:26 PM
Oh I wouldn't restrict kissing to the Arab domain. It's global. Are you referring to the man to man part of smooching?

Michael
01-20-09, 09:43 PM
It's perfectly fine to kiss these rocks. It's tradition.

The funny point is Islam is supposed to be against idolatry yet practices idolatry right in it's most holy site.

People are funny like that.

S.A.M.
01-20-09, 09:46 PM
Oh I wouldn't restrict kissing to the Arab domain. It's global. Are you referring to the man to man part of smooching?

No I mean the tradition of kissing as a way of greeting.

swivel
01-21-09, 05:23 AM
It's perfectly fine to kiss these rocks. It's tradition.

The funny point is Islam is supposed to be against idolatry yet practices idolatry right in it's most holy site.

People are funny like that.

Oh no you didn't.

S.A.M.
01-21-09, 05:26 AM
Yeah, kissing a rock is clearly idolatory.

Ever get the notion that atheists have very fixed beliefs as much as they claim theists do?

/smooches rock on ring finger

Michael
01-21-09, 05:41 PM
To the OP: Why is a meteor worshipped at Mecca?

For a few people it only a tradition.
For most Muslims it's another superstition in their larger superstitious world view. Simply put, they truly believe the rocks are magical and will one day talk to them, or even bless them right then and there. Such superstitious belief is absolutely no different than believing in the lucky number 7 or lucky 8s or the magical Allah. It's all exactly the same.

M