View Full Version : Why hate the pagans?


VitalOne
11-01-03, 07:37 AM
Why do Christians, Muslims, and Jews hate pagans? Even though religions like Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism promote peace. Buddhism says that you can take part in any religion that teaches to love. Hinduism says to see god in everything, including the Christian-Jew-Muslim god, and Judeo-Christian religions can be seen as a form of Bhakti yoga. Taoism rejects unecessary violence, and hatred and Taoist believe in a force that balances all.

So why?

GodLied
11-01-03, 09:51 AM
<body bgcolor=gold title=GodLied>
Jews are as they are because of the OT.

Christians who spread hate are in conflict with their purported forgiving Jesus. Those Xians are hypocrites.

According to the Koran, Muslims are to live in harmony with all except for those who punish them for their beliefs. For that exception, self defense is imperative. As Israel continues to evict Palestinians in line with the OT, the Koran response is self defense. Combining the OT and Koran repsonses shows peace will not occur in the Middle East until Israel removes the dividing wall, returns land back to Palestinians, and lives at one with them. Such action will evict many Israelis. That action is the cost of peace.

GodLied.


Originally posted by VitalOne
Why do Christians, Muslims, and Jews hate pagans? Even though religions like Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism promote peace. Buddhism says that you can take part in any religion that teaches to love. Hinduism says to see god in everything, including the Christian-Jew-Muslim god, and Judeo-Christian religions can be seen as a form of Bhakti yoga. Taoism rejects unecessary violence, and hatred and Taoist believe in a force that balances all.

So why?

tablariddim
11-01-03, 11:47 AM
I think the pagans referred to in holy books are the types that used human sacrifice and sex orgies in their rituals, things, which are anathema to Judeo/Xian belefs.

Paganism is of course the basis of original humanistic religions and whatever horrendous deeds they enacted for the sake of their beliefs, must have probably been grounded in theories on their positive effects, even if they had been deluded. So deep had paganism been entrenched in the collective psyche of the people that the Xians, as their power took effect, conveniently hijacked most of the pagan holidays and turned them into ones of their own.

spidergoat
11-01-03, 11:49 AM
Nothing like an enemy to bring a community together.

Chalaco
01-25-04, 08:11 AM
Nothing like an enemy to bring a community together.


Hit the nail on the head. Religion controls more than it does anything, and those who have apathy towards it (pagans) are seen as a threat to the religion because it shows all those under the putative religion that one can live without religion (a silly notion, I know, but there are many who would have you believe your life wouldn't be much without religion) and so the religion chides the pagans to make sure everybody knows they're "evil", which would make sure that they don't follow in the pagans footsteps and leave the religion. See the pattern. There's more, but because of apathy, I won't divulge, for it is of no interest to me.

Good day.

ConsequentAtheist
01-25-04, 08:52 AM
<body bgcolor=gold title=GodLied>
Jews are as they are because of the OT.
And just how are Jews?

Chalaco
01-25-04, 09:48 AM
<body bgcolor=gold title=GodLied>
Jews are as they are because of the OT.

Christians who spread hate are in conflict with their purported forgiving Jesus. Those Xians are hypocrites.

According to the Koran, Muslims are to live in harmony with all except for those who punish them for their beliefs. For that exception, self defense is imperative. As Israel continues to evict Palestinians in line with the OT, the Koran response is self defense. Combining the OT and Koran repsonses shows peace will not occur in the Middle East until Israel removes the dividing wall, returns land back to Palestinians, and lives at one with them. Such action will evict many Israelis. That action is the cost of peace.

GodLied.


and what exactly is the OT?

Persol
01-25-04, 09:51 AM
I think the pagans referred to in holy books are the types that used human sacrifice and sex orgies in their rituals, things, which are anathema to Judeo/Xian belefs. Well, it sounds to me that Christians, Muslims, and Jews are just jealous.

and what exactly is the OT?
Old Testament

Chalaco
01-25-04, 10:00 AM
Well, it sounds to me that Christians, Muslims, and Jews are just jealous.

and what exactly is the OT?
Old Testament


had a hunch it was that, but wasn't too sure, thanks for the clarification.

Medicine*Woman
01-25-04, 05:09 PM
I think the pagans referred to in holy books are the types that used human sacrifice and sex orgies in their rituals, things, which are anathema to Judeo/Xian belefs.

Paganism is of course the basis of original humanistic religions and whatever horrendous deeds they enacted for the sake of their beliefs, must have probably been grounded in theories on their positive effects, even if they had been deluded. So deep had paganism been entrenched in the collective psyche of the people that the Xians, as their power took effect, conveniently hijacked most of the pagan holidays and turned them into ones of their own.
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M*W: Blame human sacrifice on the pagans, my ass! Let me tell you a little bit about the gnosticism and the Essenes whose followers were really into human sexuality which they considered to be a "sacrifice." Gnostics considered the sexual union to be sacramental and as a way of raising spiritual powers. They believed sexual activity was the road to ecstasy. Essenes believed semen was sacred seed that brought light and spirit. Christians identified semen as the medium that transmitted lust and original sin. Gnostics taught the practice of sexual offerings to divine beings (but not to just one God). As late as 380 AD Christians would perform a sexual ritual after intercourse where they would take the semen in their hands and exalt it up to the heavens as a holy offering of the body of Christ which they then consume. Then they do a monthly ritual with the woman's menstrual blood and follow suit by ingesting it.

"According to Irenaeus, Marcus performed a sacrament that involved mixing a purple liquid that he said was the 'blood of Grace' with wine. Marcus and his followers may have been mixing wine with small amounts of male semen and female menstrual blood, viewed as the essence of each gender. This ceremony would have been particularly abhorrent to the Jewish, since Jewish dietary law forbade the consumption of blood. Such a ceremony was more literal than the Eucharistic consumption of the body and blood of Jesus. Morton Smith of Columbia University, a historian of magic, has suggested that various Gnostics carried out such literal reenactments of Jesus's 'This is my body; this is my blood,' thus demonstrating further freedom from the restrictive law of the Old Testament." (Encyclopedia of Heresies and Heretics, Chas. S. Clifton, Barnes & Noble, Inc., 1998).

alain
02-09-04, 04:17 AM
most christians, muslems and jews hate pagans because their religious leaders do. The religious leader hold nothing but fear for these minority religions. They have been kept in low numbers, by shunning them and things such as witch burnings. christians, muslems and jews are losing their influence, they used to rule many countries, but now are mostly just religious leaders. Things such as wicca are spreading, many people now days are pagans. The church is being brought to its knees by individual rights, and a thousand smaller religions, sick of being crushed by the larger religions

Jenyar
02-09-04, 06:01 AM
Then they do a monthly ritual with the woman's menstrual blood and follow suit by ingesting it.
You're really indiscriminate about who you group under "Christians" aren't you?

Leviticus 3:17
'This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.'
Leviticus 15:19
'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.'

And it's evident why the gnostics weren't accepted as Christians, and why Irenaeus felt compelled to called Marcus a heretic and a pagan.

Medicine*Woman
02-09-04, 06:34 PM
You're really indiscriminate about who you group under "Christians" aren't you?

Leviticus 3:17
'This is a lasting ordinance for the generations to come, wherever you live: You must not eat any fat or any blood.'
Leviticus 15:19
'When a woman has her regular flow of blood, the impurity of her monthly period will last seven days, and anyone who touches her will be unclean till evening.'

And it's evident why the gnostics weren't accepted as Christians, and why Irenaeus felt compelled to called Marcus a heretic and a pagan.
----------
M*W: Exactly who do you consider to be Christian, Jenyar? I thought it was anyone who believed Jesus died for them personally, therefore, granting them salvation. Or has there been so much infighting in this splintered cult that caused it to explode like a pile of sawdust?

John Locke
02-09-04, 08:08 PM
Why do Christians, Muslims, and Jews hate pagans? Even though religions like Buddhism, Taoism and Hinduism promote peace. Buddhism says that you can take part in any religion that teaches to love. Hinduism says to see god in everything, including the Christian-Jew-Muslim god, and Judeo-Christian religions can be seen as a form of Bhakti yoga. Taoism rejects unecessary violence, and hatred and Taoist believe in a force that balances all.

So why?

If that sweeping, unfounded generalization were absolutely true, I'd like to know why myself.

I, personally, cannot speak for Jews; and still less can I speak for Muslims. For Christians, however, I'll ask you to look no further back than the Renaissance for the evidence that Christians do not hate Pagans.

alain
02-20-04, 05:02 AM
johnlocke "I'll ask you to look no further back than the Renaissance for the evidence that Christians do not hate Pagans."
and ill ask you to look back to witchburning

Jenyar
02-23-04, 02:22 AM
Witch-burning is a symptom of fear caused by superstition. It happens in the animistic religions today even in our "civilized world". As Yoda would say, fear leads to anger, ander leads to hatred.

Generalizing about it won't help anybody understand what happened then any better, and it doesn't demonstrate great understanding of what happens in the world at the moment.

daydream_believer
02-24-04, 11:18 PM
who counts as pagan? today, pagan is the general umbrella term for all the witchy, shamany, earth loving, hippy, recreationist type peoples......the xians and the others have always hated us.....probably coz they were jealous and coz they just don't like anything that isn't there own thing, any way, they all hate each other too (the jews, xians and muslims). They are just religons which have a fundamental principle saying; If it isn't what you're into, hate it." It's from their commandments and stuff.

rainbow__princess_4
02-27-04, 03:18 AM
The thing is that paganism covers over 250 different and/or separate religions so really it is impossible for every single religious person to hate every single pagan... but this convo seems to have taken a sharp turn towards Jews so I'll leave it at that...

rainbow__princess_4
02-27-04, 03:20 AM
On other note, I totally agree with daydream_believer... that's totally true, you!

P. M. Thorne
02-27-04, 04:14 AM
I have lived a while and I know of no Christians, Jews or otherwise who hate pagans. That is an incorrect statement. Hate is a strong word, and most people do not spend their time hating other religions. True story. PMT

daydream_believer
02-27-04, 06:49 PM
yay! i'm not hated! *smiles delightedly* But hang on, i am. There are so many people i have encountered who are mainly xians, if i'm honest, who do hate pagans. Maybe not all xians, jews and muslims hate pagans, but a lot do.

Persol
02-27-04, 08:04 PM
I'm willing to bet that most also don't really know much about what 'pagan' means.

Of course they hate it. Pagan is used throughout the teaches (of at least chrisitianity) to represent people less spiritually 'pure'.

P. M. Thorne
02-28-04, 12:04 AM
You contradict yourself Persol, my friend, you first say that "most also don't really know much about what "pagan" is, and to this I agree. Som then why do you say "they hate it." I have to assume that by "it" you mean paganism.

You cannot make a statement like that, but I do know what you mean. Many have this, "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing, and I would be a bit suspicious of that too, but I swear, I know no one who hates pagans, and I know a lot of people. Yeah, I do.
Daydream Believer is all warm and reassured; let us not spoil it for him! (Just kidding around.) You guys behave! pmt

Silverback
02-28-04, 12:53 AM
Religion is about superiority. Whatever religion considers themselves morally superior to everyone else. Thus, most religions = hate everyone that isn't part of your group.

Yeah, hate is a strong word and probably not always true. But they still see themselves as superior. I have even met a few "hippy-love" pagans who act that way, as well as athiests (there it is supposed intellectual superiority, same thing, different frock).

As you can tell, I am not a big fan of religion. However, in all honesty, the pagans tend to be more fun.

rainbow__princess_4
02-28-04, 03:21 AM
P.M. Thorne, I believe they were referring to the people who DO hate Pagans... why do they?

rainbow__princess_4
02-28-04, 03:23 AM
And after all, daydream_believer, isn't everyone hated by someone at least, for something? At least you'll get to have fun instead of stressing about converting people!

rainbow__princess_4
02-28-04, 03:25 AM
You contradict yourself Persol, my friend, you first say that "most also don't really know much about what "pagan" is, and to this I agree. Som then why do you say "they hate it." I have to assume that by "it" you mean paganism.

You cannot make a statement like that, but I do know what you mean. Many have this, "hate the sin, love the sinner" thing, and I would be a bit suspicious of that too, but I swear, I know no one who hates pagans, and I know a lot of people. Yeah, I do.
Daydream Believer is all warm and reassured; let us not spoil it for him! (Just kidding around.) You guys behave! pmt

You should be aware that people hate what they do not understand so Persol was NOT contradicting him/herself... And if you know of no-one who hates Pagans, well how many of the people you know have you actually ASKED of the subject? People can feel very strongly when provoked.

P. M. Thorne
02-28-04, 03:37 PM
RAINBOW WRITES: You should be aware that people hate what they do not understand so Persol was NOT contradicting him/herself... And if you know of no-one who hates Pagans, well how many of the people you know have you actually ASKED of the subject? People can feel very strongly when provoked.
...and...P.M. Thorne, I believe they were referring to the people who DO hate Pagans... why do they?

PMT RESPONDS: First: If you do not know what something is, it is a bit confusing--at the least--to say that you hate it. That was the only point I was making there.

As for what I should know, perhaps you what should know is that I just might be almost as smart as you are. Do you suppose? FYI Yes, I do listen, and yes, I know no one who hates pagens, and yes the people I have exchanged thoughts with over many years, on this subject do know what a pagen is. As for me personally, I consider myself right in there with you and all the people in this world. I like almost everyone. Why not? We are all in this together, right?

Silverback Writes: Religion is about superiority. Whatever religion considers themselves morally superior to everyone else. Thus, most religions = hate everyone that isn't part of your group. ..Yeah, hate is a strong word and probably not always true. But they still see themselves as superior. I have even met a few "hippy-love" pagans who act that way, as well as athiests (there it is supposed intellectual superiority, same thing, different frock).

PMT Responds: Feeling superior and hating do not necessarily go hand in hand, right?

Silverback: As you can tell, I am not a big fan of religion. However, in all honesty, the pagans tend to be more fun.

PMT You could have a point there, kiddo. However, I have fun and I suppose what I am is religious, but I am not a church goer. So, what do you think about, when you are not having fun? pmt

Silverback
02-28-04, 08:39 PM
Hi PMT,

Oh, I agree that feeling superior and hating are not the same, that is why I admitted "hate" is probably overused. But to quote my favorite band (hey, that is always a sign of intellectual genius, no?) ;)

Rush, "Witch Hunt" (part 3 of "Fear"):
Quick to judge, quick to anger,
Slow to understand.
Ignorance and predjudice,
and fear walk hand in hand.

My point in that being simply that it is a short step for some people (present company excepted) from religion to superiority to disdain to hate.

Ok, that was three steps. A hop, skip and a jump, eh? :D

rainbow__princess_4
02-29-04, 12:18 AM
RAINBOW WRITES:PMT RESPONDS: First: If you do not know what something is, it is a bit confusing--at the least--to say that you hate it. That was the only point I was making there.

As for what I should know, perhaps you what should know is that I just might be almost as smart as you are. Do you suppose? FYI Yes, I do listen, and yes, I know no one who hates pagens, and yes the people I have exchanged thoughts with over many years, on this subject do know what a pagen is. As for me personally, I consider myself right in there with you and all the people in this world. I like almost everyone. Why not? We are all in this together, right?
Cool, just checking.

Persol
02-29-04, 07:55 AM
PMT RESPONDS: First: If you do not know what something is, it is a bit confusing--at the least--to say that you hate it. That was the only point I was making there.
Agreed... but I think that most people who hate Paganism, are what they 'think' Paganism is... not what it actually is. Either way that 'hate' (may be too strong a word) is still in the same direction.

Silverback
02-29-04, 01:20 PM
...but I think that most people who hate Paganism, are what they 'think' Paganism is... not what it actually is.
Exactly. I think most intolerance (ie hate) is rooted in ignorance. It's easy to push hate against a group of people that nobody really knows. Through history, the Jews, the gypsies, the pagans, etc.

Plus, it's easier to sit on a moral high horse if they have someone to point down at.

P. M. Thorne
02-29-04, 02:21 PM
Silverback, Hi again. What a response! And one of my favorites: "I have never been to Spain, but I kind of like the music." So, what was that quote all about?

You are a character! Thank you for responding. I like your sense of humor.

TO PRINCESS: Hey! Thanks. PMT

P. M. Thorne
02-29-04, 02:30 PM
ANSWER TO PERSON: I think I have to agree, and this one of the biggest problems in this word, between human beings. We think we understand something, make a judgment and then cling to that judgment, while often closing our ears and eyes to further insight. This would not be quite so bad, however if closed our mouths as well.

Words have meanings over the years, and some have been rather subtle, so I really do not like labels. I have only one documented label and this is only because I want to vote in the primaries. :)

P. M. Thorne
02-29-04, 02:31 PM
correction: Well, I was close. Please translate "Person" to "PERSOL." Thanks. PMT

Silverback
02-29-04, 02:44 PM
Hi PMT

What was that quote all about? You pretty much summed it up in your answer to Persol. ;)

alain
03-01-04, 04:04 AM
people were talking about everyone thinking themselves superior to everyone else
many atheiests are intellectually superior,
on the other hand maybe Christians are morally superior
and maybe pagans have more fun then everyone else

It could make sense, maybe people who are more concerned with being nice join a religion, maybe athiests are smarter, or just spend more time learning (as they spend less time in church)

P. M. Thorne
03-02-04, 12:43 AM
Alain, In all due respect, Sir, who has brainwashed you into thinking that atheists are necessarily intellectually smarter; or, perhaps I should ask, in what way are they smarter. More academic, is this what you mean, more inclined to read many opinions that support their preconceived ideas, just as theists read many opinions that support their preconceived ideas. Yes, I see both sides, but a truly rational person knows how hard it is to prove a negative, yet many atheist spend much of their time asking for proof that their is no God.

You paint with a very wide brush my friend. (How are you doing anyhow? Have not seen your posts for a while.)

Cherrio pmt

P. M. Thorne
03-02-04, 12:47 AM
Alian, In fairness, I should also mention that there could easily be many Christians who are not morally superior either. "People are people," may sound a bit trite and redundant, but is a safer statement, I think than assuming people into groups.

Just thought I should add that.

alain
03-02-04, 06:02 AM
im not saying there is a big difference, though scientists have proved at least small differences. also, it would deffinately be averages, if you take 1 of each, who knows, if you take a hundred thousand, im fairly sure i would be proved right. I honestly dont know how they are smarter. It is hard to prove a negative, but most religions have it so that it is also hard to prove the positive.

"You paint with a very wide brush my friend." with 6 billion people in the world, finer details often need to be lost. ALso, thanx for the friend bit on the end

"How are you doing anyhow? Have not seen your posts for a while" u dont wanna hear me bitching about school, so ill mostly keep quiet about this, i have been writing in other forums apart from religion so i guess it depends which ones u read., how r u?

PMT - "make a judgment and then cling to that judgment"
gotta admit, ur right, happens all the time with music
"i hate The Cat Empire"
*cue, music*
"this song's good, whose it buy?"
"cat empire"
"i hate this song"

P. M. Thorne
03-02-04, 03:34 PM
Silverback; not sure if you were repeating my question, or asking about my quote. My quote is from Three Dog Night, which might seem like old stuff to you, because it is!
I was just being silly, because you quoted lyrics, thought I would too, and that was the first thing that popped into my mind. So, -later! PMT

P. M. Thorne
03-02-04, 03:39 PM
alain wrote:
im not saying there is a big difference, though scientists have proved at least small differences. also, it would deffinately be averages, if you take 1 of each, who knows, if you take a hundred thousand, im fairly sure i would be proved right. I honestly dont know how they are smarter. It is hard to prove a negative, but most religions have it so that it is also hard to prove the positive.

How can scientists prove that anyone is morally superior to another. Do you honestly think that very many Christians would admit being immoral? Some athiests might think being immoral would be a rather rebellious macho thing; but Christians would be in big trouble with the "keep it clean" organizations.

"You paint with a very wide brush my friend." with 6 billion people in the world, finer details often need to be lost. ALso, thanx for the friend bit on the end

"How are you doing anyhow? Have not seen your posts for a while" u dont wanna hear me bitching about school, so ill mostly keep quiet about this, i have been writing in other forums apart from religion so i guess it depends which ones u read., how r u?

I would be interested in your major, alain, I am always interested in education, but prefer folks that think for themselves, thus the forum, where at least some do.

PMT - "make a judgment and then cling to that judgment"
gotta admit, ur right, happens all the time with music
"i hate The Cat Empire"
*cue, music*
"this song's good, whose it buy?"
"cat empire"
"i hate this song"

Whatever you say, bud. :)

alain
03-02-04, 11:08 PM
PMT "I would be interested in your major, alain, I am always interested in education, but prefer folks that think for themselves, thus the forum, where at least some do."

i dont have a major, im only in high school, are you at uni? if so, whats your major?

P. M. Thorne
03-03-04, 03:47 PM
alian:

No, I am out of school. It is just that I sincerely believe we should never stop learning. This old world changes fast, and by keeping an open ear to new comers from cradle up, we who might think we are through with school realize that we have just begun.

If it is any comfort to you, college is more fun insomuch as you will most likely feel more in charge of your subjects, or at least it seemed that way to me. In addition, most of the ones who attend college do so because they are interested in learning. If you can avoid the hazing and extremes, and be your own person, you will one day turn around and pat yourself on the back.

When I was in school, my major was business. If I were to go back, it would not be business. Does that tell you anything? :bugeye: I allowed myself to get stuck, but what I truly like is philosophy, history, geography and politics.
Nothing to me is more exciting then feeling attached in some way to the world at large. Cheers. PMT

Silverback
03-03-04, 11:09 PM
Hi PMT

Sorry, I should have put a "quote" around that question. Basically, I think you and I are pretty much on the same wavelength on this issue. "Hate" is an overused word, perhaps "intolerance" is better. There are a great many religious people who are quite tolerant and friendly.

But predjudice still exists, no?

The lyrics were from a song called "Witch hunt" and it is about a town of supposedly good people who are convinced by their religious leaders to murder an innocent girl. A witch hunt, thus the title. Our discussion was about religious people who hate/fear/dislike pagans even if they don't really know what a pagan is. It seemed appropriate and the line "Ignorance and predjudice and fear walk hand in hand" seemed fairly self-explanitory.

And yes, I know Three Dog Night. Ahhh, flashback to the days of youth. Do you know the Canadian band Rush? (Geddy Lee, Neal Peart, Alex Lifeson). They are authors of the quote I used, only a few years after the days of TDN.

And yes, I was being intentionally silly in that post, I had hoped that was evident. :D

* makes himself a note: "Use more winkies" ;) ;) *

alain
03-04-04, 02:16 AM
PMT - "No, I am out of school. It is just that I sincerely believe we should never stop learning. This old world changes fast, and by keeping an open ear to new comers from cradle up, we who might think we are through with school realize that we have just begun.

If it is any comfort to you, college is more fun insomuch as you will most likely feel more in charge of your subjects, or at least it seemed that way to me. In addition, most of the ones who attend college do so because they are interested in learning. If you can avoid the hazing and extremes, and be your own person, you will one day turn around and pat yourself on the back.

When I was in school, my major was business. If I were to go back, it would not be business. Does that tell you anything? I allowed myself to get stuck, but what I truly like is philosophy, history, geography and politics.
Nothing to me is more exciting then feeling attached in some way to the world at large. Cheers. PMT"


thanks for the advice, im probably going for History or Medicine, cheers

rainbow__princess_4
03-04-04, 03:20 AM
umm... what has business and canadians got to do with Pagans? wondering...