I was responding to the Linkin Park post and a rush of ideas came in my head, they are:

why don't I like today's rock and metal bands.
Except for a song here and there I am generally displeased with most of the music made these days. Why do you guys think this is, I have a few theories:

I am twenty eight and I might be partial to the music that was from my generation, i.e. Pearl jam, Nirvana, Metallica, Pantera, Soundgarden. Or I am growing up and my tastes have changed or I am past that time of my life that I was more easily influenced.

The quality of most music is getting worse and worse, which is definitely a commentary about the state of our culture and society. i.e people are getting hopeless, society is getting more denegraded or mindless.

Music doesn't have the emotion it used to have. I used to love how Pearl Jam used to express such powerful emotions in their music. Or remember the 40 and 50's and doo wopp when music was all emotion. Now rock and even pop 40 to a certain extent are increasingly technical and lack that expression of emotion that really made the music of the past great or special.

Quite frankly I think I am still pretty cool and can still judge a good song or a good rock song, but maybe I can't, who knows.
Anyway, I know that I love hip-pop and rap and I follow it religiously. I think its the newest, most invigorating and refreshing form of music currently available. I love the lyrics, good catchy backing tracks and beats, the political consciousness in it, the way you can also dance to it and how it gets you excited, ambitious and ready to go.

Am I missing the point with seether, trapt, linkin park, the hives, american high fi, foo fighters, the band that sings "bother", the "new" chili-peppers stuff, the american rejects, the "new" tool stuff, queens of the stone age, soulfly (sucks compared to sepultura), and the slew of crappy pop punk bands: good charlotte (anthem is pretty cool though), blink 182, transplants (sucks comapared to rancid), simple plan, sum 41 (casuality of society is good and they have other good songs, they are no iron maiden and I mean that partially in jest).

Anyway, does the music that these people make lack any real depth or is it just me? Maybe its just the problem with most musicians in general. I had a friend that thought they were all very narcissicistic.

Or maybe its me, since I like other musicians, think that I can do it better than whats out there or if not better can provide something thats missing from the current array of music out there.

Alright I am out of breath.

Seriously, I think you're looking in all the wrong places for good rock music. Don't look to what's getting radio play. Don't look to MTV. Don't look to the Billboard charts. With the exceptions of Tool and the Foo Fighters, I agree that the bands on your list really blow.

In an ideal world, every rock music fan should hear the following CDs and appreciate them. Please don't hesitate to check any of these out -- just listen with an open mind.

ash | free all angels
at the drive-in | relationship of command
blindside | silence
cave in | jupiter
codeseven | the rescue
coheed and cambria | second stage turbine blade
coldplay | a rush of blood to the head
cursive | the ugly organ
deftones | white pony
dredg | leitmotif
dredg | el cielo
failure | fantastic planet
faith no more | angel dust
finch | what it is to burn
flaming lips | yoshimi battles the pink robots
glassjaw | everything you ever wanted to know about silence
hopesfall | the satellite years
incubus | s.c.i.e.n.c.e.
isis | oceanic
jane's addiction | ritual de lo habitual
juliana theory | love
killswitch engage | alive or just breathing
mad at gravity | resonance
mr. bungle | california
nine inch nails | the fragile
opeth | blackwater park
our lady peace | happiness is not a fish that you can catch
a perfect circle | mer de noms
recover | rodeo and picasso
rival schools | united by fate
sinch
sparta | wiretap scars
stabbing westward
30 seconds to mars
thrice | the illusion of safety
toadies | rubberneck
tomahawk
unloco | becoming i
zwan | mary star of the sea

If you have questions or would like specific song recommendations, just PM me.

I hate mainstream hip-hop and rap. I think so many artists are just in it to make money and get girls. Like Nelly. Fuck I wanna shoot that guy. But when you get to the artists that have been around for a while and actually have something to say, then ya, they have my respect, although the style may not always appeal to me. I can see where you're coming from, though. But this is coming from a girl who'd rather sit back and listen to the Blues all day than anything else. :D

Let's see, pop-punk bands. You're not alone in missing the point on that one. I have to admit I do like the Transplants, if only cause htey actually sound different. And its really nice to hear a guy that doesn't sound like he's twelve and sugar embodied. I think it just appeals to so many people cause they can identify with it. Its also catchy, they slam the straight pop people, they look rebellious, hey, why not like them!
THe band that sings "Bother" is Stone Sour, and they're pretty good, in my humble opinion.
As for Linkin Park-this is just my opinion, anyway-they did the rock/hip-hop/metal fusion well. I'll admit it, I like Hybrid Theory.
Unfortunately, I can't comment on a lot of the bands you mentioned, as I don't really listen to them, besides what is played non-fucking-stop on the radio and Much, but in general, I'll agree, music is sadly lacking depth nowadays. And diversity. Almost any new band that comes out sounds exactly like everyone else and its infuriating. Especially since most of my bands rarely make new albums or have broken up.
I don't know, if I don't like what's happening now, I just tend to look to hte past, or a less-seldom head genre. Such as Blues! May not have a lot of socio-political commentary, but sometimes I just don't want to hear that. If I do, then I'll break out my Rage CDs. I dunno, I think I'm just gonna isolate myself from all forms of popular media for the next 10 years. Listen to no new music. Maybe by then it'll be better!

Although its probably just hte mainstream. I'm sure there are bands out there doing different things, they're just hard to find. Or maybe its just late, and I don't know what the hell I"m talking about, can't form a coherent thought, and should dhut up and get back to my essay so i can sleep and get over this cold. While listenting to some Stabbing Westward, Jonny Lang, Pink Floyd, or The Doors.
Yup, that's what I should do...

You should check out some of the bands on the list I just posted. If you're into the Floyd, I'd especially recommend that you listen to the CDs I mentioned by Cave In, Codeseven, Cursive, Dredg, and 30 Seconds To Mars. Excellent music all the way around.

I'll also admit I like Hybrid Theory. *blushes*

And although I'm not too big on Stone Sour, their live show blew me the fuck away. The energy level was insane there. I met Corey Taylor after the show too -- really nice guy.

thanks!

You're very welcome! I always feel privileged to introduce new music to people searching for something worthy of their time.

I like 30 Seconds to Mars. I'll try to check the others out when I have more time.

music has gone down the drain basically... ppl are regurgitating stuff over and over again... i like hip hop too but mainstream stuff is pure shit... aren't ppl gettin tired of money n hoes?? sure some songs might have good beats, but a good song has to have proper lyrics and good delivery too... im very selective about my hip hop...

rock/metal/alternative music scene is also quite watevahhh... there are certain bands that i always stick to cuz they've consistently made good music.. i will always listen to these artists cuz i think they make fantastic music

Radiohead
NIN
Tool
Smashing Pumpkins/Zwan
Some of Marilyn Manson
Matthew Good Band/Mattew Good
Perfect Circle (if they ever come out with another LP)

I would've put U2 on that list but i find their stuff to be quite ordinary now... im not really gettin into it anymore...

Find that a lotta bands are just cashing in now these days.. sure u got to have food to eat on the table, but how many millions do you want man? make some good music dammit... I hate it when i hear a metal or alternative song and it is obvious that it is tailored so that the masses will like it... its so commercial these days... radio stations are pathetic tooo...

I gave the vines and the strokes a chance, but they're alright.. i'll check em out when they come out with another cd.. the strokes are workin nigel godrich now so im gonna see wat he does with their stuff...

good music is hard to come by these days... haven't bought anything lately cuz nothing is good.. im just waitin for the new radiohead release in june now... i know its gonna be fantastic..

"I hate mainstream hip-hop and rap."

i 2nd that. it seems even harder to find decent hip-hop than decent rock. as a general rule the only rap that gets airplay is crap. you've definitly got to go to other sources to find decent music in general.

on another note. I was thinking about the decline of rock one day and i saw one of those '10 years ago' top 30 charts in rollingstone. it was full of what i would call at least decent rock bands. I look at the current and there's 1 maybe 2 bands that i can at least respect. maybe the it's just a cycle and things will get better in 5-7years or so.

i bet in the 80's people who had listened to rock in the 60's/70's thought rock was dead. there have been plenty of rock is dead time periods. I doubt that this one is going to be the last.

Sounds like you guys appreciate more of the "grunge" approach to your music. Wish I could help ya out but I'm more of a true blue metalhead. :D

But I totally agree with you that most of the music *I've* heard over the last 10 years or so, lacks emotion, talent and interest on my part. Of the ones you mentioned, Soundgarden is the only one I can tolerate.

Curious, what older groups (Van Halen, Judas Priest, etc) do you like, if any?

Ice

okay I have plenty to say here:

about U2: my mom said something that was suprisingly cool even though she is generaly a hip mom anyway, she said "Bono is a sell-out" while we were watching the grammys. He is so concerned about being a celebrity and hobnobbing with fake and trendy execs in the mucis industry that he apparently hasn't paid attention to the rapid disintegration of the quality of U2's music since Actung Baby. I used to be a big fan but I think they are a "wash" now.

As to Radiohead, I liked Pablo Honey and Okay computer. What I heard of Kid A did not strike me as terrific, the songs really lacked the structure of the music that they made in the past (I personally like alot of structure in music). I reecently also had a live cd of theirs, the one with the brown cover. Anyway, I think that ok computer was their best, I could really feel the emotions, the yearning, it was really catchy and I could really relate to the feelings and ideas and expressed in it. As for the Radiohead that came after that, I am sorry I think they are going downhill, they used to be depressing but now they just make me want to commit suicide, I don't even think the emotions that I hooked in with are really there anymore, all that remains is that haunting vibe that mesmerizes you into deep sleep. That said, I can still vibe to their songs, new or old, fast or slow, once in a while as they do create a interesting spiritual mood and have a nice relaxing calming effect on the brain (especially the slow songs) like that one with the video of the computer animated stick characters going down to the bottom of the sea or songs like no surprises. All in all, I find them to depressing to listen to them all the time, they are definitely a "sometimes" band for me, i.e. when I am in the mood for them. But all in all I respect what they are trying to do, they definitely have their own style and do it a bit different from the mainstream and perhaps have created a trend, since there are alot of band's that are influenced by them or try to sound like them these days and I respect what they have done for music, as I respect what U2 has done, but as for both bands, I think they have both seen their heyday come and go.

In response to ice princess: I used to be into eighties metal but I think alot of its old hat now. I used to love the album metal meltdown by Judas Priest. I wasn't too crazy about their early stuff though, i.e. the stuff that you chicks like.

hmmmmm... about radiohead... i can understand why you'd feel that way.. i remember when Kid A came out... i was standin outside hmv with a few friends for midnight sales and the store was playin the cd...we cud hear it cuz they had speakers outside on the ceiling... and half n hour before midnite, there were a good hundred ppl in line.. and i remember how so many of them left cuz they just cudn't believe this was the new sound radiohead had adopted... there is a big tug of war btw rock n roll radiohead fans vs new age radiohead fans/fans who appreciate both styles... i cudn't just criticize it before even givin it a fair listen... many hardcore radiohead fans turned away from the music after Ok computer... but in my opinion, Kid A is their finest work as an entire album... extremely cohesive.. very dark and morbid... i think u have to have a taste for this... i mean ppl were already used to this type of mood due to songs like 'street spirit'.. but this was far more beyond than that song... i have immense respect for the band... im not trynna convince u or anythin, just tellin you wat i think of em.... i feel that to fully appreciate what they are trying to do, you have to follow how they've matured over the past albums and know why they changed courses all of a sudden... i mean, after listenin to Ok computer, i was thinkin how they would possibly top that... and they did.. just in a different style... im glad they did wat they wanted to do instead of churnin out another album like Ok computer... it cud've gotten redundant after a few years... i've downloaded the leaked version of their new album and they've really incorporated all music styles from their past albums.. i dont think there is gonna be a fan disappointed with this one... they have actually picked up guitars for many of their songs... fantastic stuff... its still not the final version, but its darn good...

about U2.. they are indeed sellouts... i used to really like them, but they've really gone down the drain... bono is def more concerned with his image than the music... its a shame... they were never able to recreate the joshua tree atmosphere on any of their subsequent albums... but zooropa and achtung baby are definitely pretty good... its just hard to get into them now... they seem to have fallen with the passage of time...

i forgot to mention before.. i really like rage against the machine too... too bad they broke up.. audioslave is pathetic excuse for a rehashed band...

Ever listened to the bagpipes?

I probably could get into Kid A more if I gave it a chance because I do think they are do something interesting things, especially incorporating jazz into their strange mix of music, generally though I would say it is not my type of music, eventhough I am generally open minded and I was a fan of their earlier stuff. I guess I am more of a fan of the straight forward more than that of the expiramental, but that doesn't count me out from appreciating it.

As for U2, I think that Bono's interest in the religious-type spiritualuality really went far in chopping their balls off and you could see the beginning of this even before Actung baby, where they did that video were bono was singing in some kind of a church (I think it was a song off of rattle and hum). Just a bit of that religiosity was okay but now it reeks havoc on their music and makes it kind of wus. They should of stuck to talking about woman and poltics and forgot the inner peace and religious crap, not because that stuff is no good, but because it made them too wimpy.

As for rage, they are definitely cool yet hard to take at times. I really like evil empire personally, I could apprciate their first album but never loved it although I liked a few songs off of it. I love how politically vocal they are and what they stand for. I think that took alot of guts to be that way, when most bands only sing about love, which I think can be kind of selfish because politics are important too. I didn't really have much interest for the cover album they did with renegades of funk though but even as of late found that song to be pretty cool. Fear Factory is a cool band that I have linked in my head with rage because of their aggressive style and political lyrics, although they are pretty heavy, the guy sings in a strange angelic way as well as with death metal kind of bark. Their album demanufacture was really cool.

Audioslave, my brother likes them, their first single was kind of annoying (the song with the truck and the building frame and the fireworks) but okay, "Like a stone" is pretty good but can be filed under been done before at least somewhat or it could be just that I don't like rock anymore or don't find in it or with most of the stuff out these days, anything shockingly originally and good at the same time. I guess the future has a hold on me.:)

Originally posted by god is irrelevant


coldplay | a rush of blood to the head


incubus | s.c.i.e.n.c.e.


.



He/she is seriously not kidding about these two...they are amazing albums and he/she is right...screw MTV (they barely, BARELY SHOW VIDEOS ANYMORE)...i haven't listened to any other album but i have listened to these two and they are sweet......just good music..for a good time:D

hmmm, i used to be really into metal. some bands i reccomend:

Otep
cradle of Filth (duh?)
System of a Down is awesome
40 Below Summer
Deadsy if your into synth metal
The Union Underground

As far as Punk (my preffered genre) goes...

Anti-Flag. Hands down, my favorite band.
Mindless Self Indulgence
The Distillers (i've heard a lot of people don't like them, i think they're awesome)
The Code
Unseen
The Vandals
Alkaline Trio (thats about as emo as i get)
Operation Ivy
Five Iron Frenzy (good old fashion ska, albeit christian. Try the album "Upbeats and Beatdowns" or "Electric Boogaloo")
Bouncing Souls
The Exploited
The Casualties
Dropkick Murphys

theres probably more. i don't know if that suits anyones tastes, but i enjoy all those bands.

In response to original post:

You say that todays music has less talent than the grunge period. Well, I disagree to that, but I do agree that there seems to be alot less effort and emotional input into music, but that is just the stuff on the radio. However, I haven't listened to the radio in a couple of months, so I really wouldn't know.

If you like Metal:

Converge
Deicide
Dying Fetus
Dillinger Escape Plan
Cryptopsy
Mortician
Kataklysm (a band my friend referred me to, and they are pretty good)
Everytime I Die
Will to Live

For straight up rock, there are too many bands to count. Just go to a bar on a Friday night and listen to some music. That will get you some exposure to real music. I, for one, cannot stand this new metal crap thats being pumped out. Bands like Mudvayne make me want to shit into my hand and smear it across my face. What happened to bands like Cannibal Corpse? If you want to experience the true new-age metal, its all about Hardcore. Go to Pheer.com and check out the videos on Converge. Thats where music should be going. That is the sickest pit ever conceived.

God Is Irrelevant,

Yeah, bands like Cursive and Candiria are going to lead the way to the next level of rock music. Its very thick stuff that you have to listen to a couple of times to grasp the transfers and beats. I'm glad that there is someone else out there picking up good CDs because none of my friends buy them anymore. Its really pathetic.

If you want to experience the true new-age metal, its all about Hardcore.

I'm all for metal.
I'm all for Punk.

But hardcore, and the hardcore scene, make me want to shoot myself in the foot, so i can never go to a shitty hardcore show again. It depresses me that this is pretty much the only local music scene there is in my home state.

This is turning out to be one of the best posts that I had ever seen in my life. Again thanks everyone for your great responses.

Seargentland:

i have coldplays new one and i had parachutes. I think parachutes is better. They are a good band, not the best ever though, can get a little too whiney here and there.

Incubus, not really into them, think there song structures are lacking, the dude has a good voice but I don't like it so much, i like the song "drive", thats my favorite by them (great lyrics, the structure and emotion in it makes it a rather cathartic song), maybe I am biased because the lead singer is a good looking guy and I am jealous, but maybe its not that because I am a good looking guy myself, but the fact that he has got the look the girls like, anyway, the def. have their own sound and style and aren't like alot of these (esp. pop-punk bands) bands that all sound alike. Also, I like the fact that they have the electronic/ record scratching component to their music like linkin park, makes things more interesting because as fraggle rocker said the motiffs get tired after a while and anyway that seems to be what rock and music in general is changing into and what direction it is moving towards.

FraggleRocker:

thanks for putting music into some perspective for us.
on the other hand,
What am I going to do with you?

First of all, it is also possible that the music that you said sounds dated, sounds dated because it is dated.

Secondly, what you say about hip-pop really shows that you don't really know too much about it and also that you are part of a racist culture that uses their prejudices to put other people's music down as garbage.

Thirdly, what you say about Bono is valid. It may be that he is an admirable person that is doing things to help change the world and is to be praised for representing music in politics but I guess you will never let yourself see how he can also be viewed as somewhat of a sell-out. Rock and Roll stands for making your voice heard, its the spirit of rebellion and revolution, its about kicking ass and making yourself heard, and standing up for freedom and against injustice. If you knew anything about U2, which I don't think you really do, you will know that they stood for all of these things and were one of the greatest bands to ever exist. Now wealth and fame have caused Bono to go soft as well as the rest of U2. They don't say anything anymore but sentimental crap and trite advice, where before they made amazing contributions to the "musical" literature of love and world politics. Now instead of really connecting with their fans with their love songs and educating them with their politically charged music, the are content to rub elbows with tight-assed people in suits that they wouldn't have even probably wanted to be with when they came into music. Growing up and meeting new people and changing is fine, but you also have to keep your integrity as what you are. They are musicians thats what they are. How come the minute you give a man a million bucks he immediately wants to do something other than what he was doing before. I'll will tell you what, if one day I make my millions, I will still be singing my songs and writing articles like this one, that are charged with political consciousness and stand for peace and "liberty and justice for all." The money may change me, or it may not, but its not going to cut off my balls. Maybe you have gotten too soft yourself and that makes you take this "go easy" attitude about everything and makes it so you can no longer call a spade a spade.

Fraggle Rocker cont'd:

I have a professor friend that I consider a mentor and he has helped me to see alot of things about life and I view him as someone who succeeded in life and has lived almost eighty years without ever selling out, so he gives me motivation to do it too. I also had a guitar teacher who was just as old and I consider the same about him and I am saying this just to counter the crap that I know you are going to try and throw my way next.

Reformed Punk:

I am not really into punk personally.

I think system of a down is great. Their first album was mediocre. The second was amazing. The third was pretty good. I love their original sound, energy, dynamics and smart, political lyrics.

Slacker 47:

I have kind personnaly grown out of death metal for the most part.

Isn't candiria the punk/death metal band with the black singer that raps and sings?

Or isn't it that band that incorporates very nice technical, progressive classical-like guitar work in their death metal sound? If not what is the band am I thinking of? I thought it was Candiria, I am confused. One thing I know is the band I am thinking of is not that old (not to say candiria is either).

Either way, i think Candiria is bound to have at least somewhat of an influence on metal and perhaps rock (and punk if I have my info straight).

I hate all the new hip-hop rock mixed bands. I wish that those times of Guns and Roses, Nirvana... could come back again. Once upon a time there was Metallica but they chose the wrong path and ended up being the puppet in the master's hands.

So, i dont listen to American Metal anymore. There are a alot of unknown international bands out there who still try to play like the old days.

Kurt Cobain whereeeee are youuuuuuuuuu? Axl how about youuuuu? Anyone there?

it doesn't look like either one of those dudes, the alive one or the dead one are going to make a solid comeback, but i hear you, they did make pretty amazing music in their time.

Kurt > Axl

Originally posted by god is irrelevant
Kurt > Axl

Definitely, Kurt is crystallized into perfect immortal rock godness while Axl is getting old and fat and weird.

hmm a couple of questions/coments

1)what's the next big thing? I wonder where are this cyclying will take us in 5-10years? anyone have any ideas or hopes of future music movements. or anyone wanna start one;)

2) about hip-hop, i'd say that good hip-hop is some of the most underapreciated music out there. when most people think hip hop they think of the mediocre stuff and think that's all that's out there. if Nelly is the only rap artist you can name then you really don't know a ton about hip hop.

"No melody, just rhythmic chanting over a lot of percussion."

yep rap is different than rock. more empasis on the lyrics and how they are delivered than on giutar riffs. good rap features very inovative word play that you don't really find in rock. to me at least the best rap is in groups that use a little instumentation, like the Roots. more of a rap band than a rap group, if you get what i'm saying.

"No melody, just rhythmic chanting over a lot of percussion."

Fraggle rocker wants to make it sound like rap is exactly the same as a tribal chant/custom in Africa. While you can say that is where it at least partially evolved from, you can still see that he doesn't really listen to rap or really know about it. First of all I consider most rappers to be poets, and many rappers have lyrics that are as good as anyone else's in any other type of music. Just listen to Nas and you will see that he really knows what he is talking about with his socially penetrating lyrics. To rap is not easy, it takes skill and talent, to make good catchy lyrics that ryhme, make sense, that have meaning and can convey emotions. Try it, Fraggle Rocker, you can't do it, I know you can't. And even if you come up with something it won't sell.

Also, I would like to say that it takes alot of talent and creativity to create the backing tracks that these rappers rap over. Its not easy or everyone would do it! Fraggle Rocker, why aren't there a million Dr. Dres or Timbalands? Oh, you have never even heard of thos guys, oh, sorry! Like I said it takes talent and creativity to make the music behind which rappers rap, music which is cool, catchy, something that will really resonate in your head (something you can vibe to), something that will make you feel good. The tracks have rhythms, tempos, and dynamics that happen to change alot more throughout most rap songs than you would think. Also, rappers often do colloborations with singers in their songs or the beat is mixed vocal tracks, sound effects and catchy noices, that people like and that have a nice effect on the brain.

Spacemanspiff:

I like the Roots.
There new song Seed 2.0. is really cool. It is a really nice song. The guitar sound is great. Really eerie and reminiscent in some ways, though it still has a very refreshing quality to it.

If you want metal, listen to:

Burzum
Bolt Thrower
Axis of Advance
Revenge
Voivod
Carcass (grind-era)
Rotten Sound
Pestilence
Asphyx
Graveland
Darkthrone
Sarcofago
Repulsion
Terrorizer
etc etc etc

Whoever said that Mortician is a good band should be slapped.

And while you're at it, check out the Swans' "Cop" lp.

its not my style, but you are really asking for it.

1. ice tea is the king of sellouts. copkiller to cop on tv. enough said.

2. rap is a step backward, i don't think so, but i guess you would say that the way you think is highly evolved.

3. screw musicology nerds, i don't need them to tell me what sounds good.

4. its too bad bono gave up, i don't think he was getting through to you with his music anyway, better he does what he does.

5. I guess most people don't think that deeply about song lyrics anyway.

6. bono doesn't need his a** kissed.

7. You used the "I am older, more experienced and wiser" argument like I knew you would, guess you couldn't help it huh?

8. There is something about Bono that I do not trust, so no I don't feel comforted.

9. great, use name dropping (i.e. ben franklin, de Vinci, Gilbert and Sullivan) to build up a big b.s. argument against me and to try and bully me with your intellect and knowledge. Its not going to work. Reread Franklin's autobiography, I don't think you understood it.

10. You can't backpeddle and take away your points, i.e its not you that thinks rap is a step backwards, it the opinion of "some" other people.

11. Rock still can't stand up to classical. Your trying too hard to be cool with this idea.

12. just because you are older doesn't mean that you are more on point about these topics than me. Sometimes its not just experience but what kind of experience you get.

13. Howard Stern is almost middle age and still knows whats cool and still likes hard rock. Why can't I be like that?

14. i realize its not an ideal world but that doesn't mean I have to turn into my parents.

15. Timbaland is probably one of the main reasons hippop is the number one music in the world right now. he has worked with and has made beats for practically everyone. He is partially the reason for the success of Aaliyah and missy Eliot. Hes worked with Ludacris, Jay-z and almost every other big name in hipop. If you don't know about him you shouldn't even use the word rap in a sentence.

16. dude, you are not flying so teach by example, if you were you would take that music ability and be on stage with the foo fighters or one of the other big bands out there instead of being here arguing with me.

17. thanks for replying to my post though, you made things very interesting.

1. I have a very eclectic taste when it comes to music.

2. I did not say that the music that I used to listened to sounds anymore simplistic than it did in the past, if I said it sounded simplistic at all. (To build off my first post on this thread, I think that the music I was talking about can somehow be simplistic and complex at the same time).

3. Rap and hip-pop have been around a long time and they are definitely not going away soon. You don't know how long it is going to be around, it may continue to be around for a very long time.

4. If we are not passionate about what we are talking about, than whats the use of talking and expressing our opinions at all. To be passionate is to be alive, those who are not passionate about anything are dead, and I have met few people in my life that were not passionate about at least one thing. What do you want to be rote zombies?

5. I assume when you were talking about how rock has overcome classical, I assume you meant classical music specifically, like the kind of music housed in the room of tower records with the signing saying classical over the door. For the sake of convention and common understanding lets just assume that that is what we mean by classical and lets not play word games.

6. Beatles and Pink Floyd classical?, I understand what you are trying to express with this, but classical?, I don't think so. Still you have the right to define things as you see them.

7. If a person is good enough and it its their dream to become a famous musician, I believe they can become one. For most it is probably not a practical goal, but for some it is. For me, doing what I want to do and dream about really boils down to what is in my heart, as corny as that sounds. But I know that you being somewhat of a "free thinker" understand what I mean.

Originally posted by fredx
To build off my first post on this thread, I think that the music I was talking about can somehow be simplistic and complex at the same timeWell, that's a pretty profound statement. I don't think I have anything to teach about music or musicology to a man who can say that.

As for bringing da Vinci and Ben Franklin into the discussion, geeze, this is SciForums. I stumbled onto the site while trying to find something in plain English on fractal geometry. All of these people are well educated and quite a few of them are in science. I doubt that many of them are not familiar with such famous figures as Franklin and da Vinci. This isn't the Geraldo Rivera home page, after all!Rap and hip-pop have been around a long time and they are definitely not going away soon. You don't know how long it is going to be around, it may continue to be around for a very long time.Of course. But from my perspective it does seem that people who create music are becoming more comfortable treating them as two more motifs to utilize rather than distinct genres to stay within the boundaries of. Linkin Park's big hit melded rap and rock about as thoroughly as anybody. Paula Cole's "Where Have All the Cowboys Gone" does a really cool thing where one voice is rapping the lyric in synch with the other voice that is singing the same line. Queen Latifah's rap bridge really breathes new life into Meredith Brooks's cover of Melanie's old chestnut "Lay Down," just what it needed to get the original point across to a new generation that isn't into Flower Power.

All of the old styles of music that were once genres in their own right are still with us, they've just been assimilated. (Perhaps it is we who are the Borg.) You hear swing and be-bop beats everywhere. And when rock and roll first came out a Mexican friend explained to me why the Latino adults of Arizona seemed to embrace it more readily than our own parents: taken strictly as dance music, a rock beat is nothing but a slightly slowed down polka!I assume you meant classical music specifically, like the kind of music housed in the room of Tower Records with the signing saying "Classical" over the door. Let's not play word games.I think it is the record store that's playing the word games. "Classical" has degenerated to mean nothing more specific than "older music that is played by a symphony orchestra or a very talented pianist." We call opera classical, but in its era it was regarded as almost vulgar. It was great symphonic composers like Wagner writing music for lavish stage productions to be presented as entertainment rather than art. Ditto for ballet scores. The Nutcracker was strictly pop music in Tchaikovsky's time. And when you get into the 20th Century with stuff like Bolero and Rhapsody in Blue, I think Ravel and Gershwin would be amused to find those CDs in the classical section. Now you find the minimalists like John Cage and Philip Glass in the same bin, and to this day there are critics who dismiss it as "pseudo-classical music for people who grew up listening to Emerson, Lake & Palmer."

I think "classical" has an important meaning, which is something that transcends time and is able to convey its message down through the years to listeners who with each generation have less in common with the people who first heard it. That's why I think Pink Floyd is very likely to be regarded as classical two hundred years from now, when (if there's any cosmic justice) Gilbert and Sullivan will be two forgotten guys who wrote music and lyrics hopelessly mired in the slang and drinking song melodies of the late 19th Century.

Beatles, OK. I am misusing the word there. Some songs come down to us as lullabies and nursery rhymes, and you can hear "Hey Jude" and "Yellow Submarine" are already there. Once in a while a song survives intact, like Greensleeves, and I can't explain that phenomenon except to vouch for it: Yeah, I like it too. To call those songs "classical" was pedantic. I appreciate your meeting me halfway and understanding what I was so clumsily trying to say. Many nursery rhymes have actually lost their lyrical messages. They were sung by Welsh or Irish nannies to the children of British aristocrats, and the Celtic words were phonetically twisted into something English that sounded familiar and similar but had no relation to the original.If a person is good enough and it's their dream to become a famous musician, I believe they can become one. For me, doing what I want to do and dream about really boils down to what is in my heart, as corny as that sounds. But I know that you being somewhat of a "free thinker" understand what I mean.Absolutely. You are one cool guy. I'm glad that forty years of Phonics and New Math and Transactional Analysis in the public schools haven't suppressed that spirit in their students. People like you make me feel optimistic about the future of humanity.

Peace.

I know alot about classical music for a young guy but I am tired of going point by point and arguing with you.

If you will learn anything from me, its that the deeper you look into these matters, you will come to see that after the title of a Pearl Jam song, "nothing is as it seems".

Also:
you said:

"I'm glad that forty years of Phonics and New Math and Transactional Analysis in the public schools haven't suppressed that spirit in their students. People like you make me feel optimistic about the future of humanity."

It has "suppressed" it and the horror of it is more than can be imagined. I am a very rare breed.