The United States has gotten in so much trouble all around the world for helping to recreate/support Israel. why does it continue? it would seem logical to have backed off significantly in our support for them in the post-9/11 years, but that hasn't happened to a large extent. i feel that their policies exacerbate the problem of terrorism on a worldwide scale, even have played a great role in creating the problem of international Islamic terrorism, yet the United States overlooks their transgressions and instead blames palestine. its hard for me to understand the logic in this.

Do you "back off" from your friends whenever a little trouble comes their way? Is that the kind of friend you are? If so, how many friends do you have? And more importantly, do they know the kind of friend you'll be when the going gets a little tough?

Baron Max

Do you "back off" from your friends whenever a little trouble comes their way? Is that the kind of friend you are? If so, how many friends do you have? And more importantly, do they know the kind of friend you'll be when the going gets a little tough?


How is it going with your old buddy Iraq?

How is it going with your old buddy Iraq?

Good, it's going good! Thanks for asking ...which I can only take to mean that you don't know. :)

Baron Max

That's something I continue to wonder about as well. Lots of people in power are Jewish so they could have a huge bias towards supporting their homeland. We could be supporting Israel to have a permanent Western influence in that region. We could be supporting Israel to keep the area in constant instability. We could be supporting Israel because of the whacky Christians and neo-cons being highly religious trying to save "God's Chosen People". We could be supporting Israel because perhaps we found out that what happened in the Bible is actually true so we need to protect Jerusalem for when the Gods or Aliens come down and visit us again, heh.

But eh, who knows. My vote is a little bit of all of the above, heh.

- N

A significant number of settlers in Israel are from the US. It's their holy land, and they tend to be pretty fundamentalist about it.

65% are american jews... and for along time.. it was the only democracy in the middle east.... and of course... there are the christians... who.. then have an interest in israel.... not to mention all the jews.....

-MT

That's something I continue to wonder about as well. Lots of people in power are Jewish so they could have a huge bias towards supporting their homeland. We could be supporting Israel because of the whacky Christians and neo-cons being highly religious trying to save "God's Chosen People".
- N

Israel owns the USA and administers it as a colony. Same with Britain,Canada and Australia.

Corporate ownership, media ownership, judicial ownership, political ownership.

Citizens of the USA vie with each other over who can stick their head further up the Israeli butt in order to get elected president.

The United States has gotten in so much trouble all around the world for helping to recreate/support Israel. why does it continue? it would seem logical to have backed off significantly in our support for them in the post-9/11 years, but that hasn't happened to a large extent. i feel that their policies exacerbate the problem of terrorism on a worldwide scale, even have played a great role in creating the problem of international Islamic terrorism, yet the United States overlooks their transgressions and instead blames palestine. its hard for me to understand the logic in this.
first of all is israel our "friend". why does america support israel? a lot of middle east countries do not like israel.

Israel owns the USA and administers it as a colony. Same with Britain,Canada and Australia.

Corporate ownership, media ownership, judicial ownership, political ownership.

Citizens of the USA vie with each other over who can stick their head further up the Israeli butt in order to get elected president.

Oh, I already know all that. I just didn't wanna be labelled a conspiracy nut or anti-semite again, so I decided to leave all that out and keep it simple. ;)

- N

Originally Posted by spuriousmonkey
How is it going with your old buddy Iraq?

It's probably 'going' like it did with his old buddy South Vietnam. Or South Korea. Or France.

I'd say the idea of loyalty among allies is a little thin. As already pointed out here, we've abandoned many allies in the past, even gone to war with them when the alliance ceased ot be profitable. Israel is a much more unique case, andd the roots of our support are found in racism.

It's difficult to explain, because so few people are familiar even with the terminology. Nazi's hate Jews, and wish to see them destroyed. Of course all clear-thinking individuals find this reprehensible. However, nazi's are not the sole group for this attitude of racial superiority among whites.

In the USA, the Nazi mentality has never strongly taken hold, because another group already exists here that provides a home for those in despereate need of bigotry. And this alternate group holds all races to be inferior to whites, but Jews are okay because they practically are white. I am speaking, of course, of the KKK.

Most Americans have no understanding of their own history in this regards, have apparently never even read, "To Kill a Mockingbird." Most people I talk to feel that the difference between the KKK and the Nazi's is irrelevant and insignificant, and these same folks wonder why they can't understand what's going on in the world today.

This ignorance is tremendously useful if you are a bigot, because when you are accused of racism, all you need do is point out all the ways you are not a Nazi, and those charges fall apart. As if only Nazis are capable of racism.

The United States has gotten in so much trouble all around the world for helping to recreate/support Israel. why does it continue?
Why not? Because fundamentalist pan-Islamic nationalists get all pissed off? Fuck 'em!

Why not? Because fundamentalist pan-Islamic nationalists get all pissed off? Fuck 'em!

yeah i mean fuck the pan-islamic nationalists, lets just continue to appease the pan-judaic zionists instead. theyre all terrorists, some of them just have more money. i personally would rather leave the whole area alone and let them slaughter each other until they can learn how to get along. maybe that way we wont have people flying jet liners into our buildings because we prop up a nation of spoiled jews who want to take over other peoples countries.

I'd imagine that it's not just the support for isreal that pisses off muslim terrorists.

Oh, I already know all that. I just didn't wanna be labelled a conspiracy nut or anti-semite again, so I decided to leave all that out and keep it simple. ;)

- N

Oh come on. Why don't you want to be labelled? Those guys reason for existence is to find people like you and me who know what reality is, then throw things at us. They know in their hearts they have no hope of understanding world politics. They resent us for having the ability to see what is really going on. Calling names makes them feel better.

It doesn't hurt us. We both know what reality is. Why not go ahead and be nice? Say the truth and let those guys have their fun by calling names. Then they can go to sleep happy.

yeah i mean fuck the pan-islamic nationalists, lets just continue to appease the pan-judaic zionists instead. theyre all terrorists, some of them just have more money. i personally would rather leave the whole area alone and let them slaughter each other until they can learn how to get along. maybe that way we wont have people flying jet liners into our buildings because we prop up a nation of spoiled jews who want to take over other peoples countries.
Yeah, but the difference is there is no pan-judaic nationalism. Israel has no desire to take over other nations, or promote Theocracy anywhere.

Yeah, but the difference is there is no pan-judaic nationalism. Israel has no desire to take over other nations, or promote Theocracy anywhere.

thanks im glad you speak for all the jews in israel. i think its pretty apparent that until the last 5 months they have done nothing but encroach upon and steal territory from palestine. that seems to me a blatant desire to take over someone elses country. thanks though for clarifying, now that i know the israelis are harmless and not promoting theocracy i can rest easy.

by the way its a broad generalization i think to paint the majority of arabs or arab nations as promoting pan islamic nationalism. look at the secular society of the UAE or even the secular society of Iraq prior to our destruction of it. a lot of those "islamic terrorists" probably dont care as much about religion as they do some kind of independence. at least it would be harder for extremist muslim fundamentalists to draw people to their cause if there werent so many arabs scared of US/Israeli/Western foreign policy and the negative effects it almost always has on their countries if they cant tow the line and give us the right amount of oil.

Do you "back off" from your friends whenever a little trouble comes their way? Is that the kind of friend you are? If so, how many friends do you have? And more importantly, do they know the kind of friend you'll be when the going gets a little tough?

Baron Max


israel is not our friend, they are our charity case. at best a political ally, which is not the same as a friend in a world where alliances are based on relatively short lived mutual economic or political gains and are ever shifting. i would argue actually that our support of israel is more of a detriment to the US than it has ever been a benefit. i guess that makes them less "friend" and more "parasite". thanks for your input though, its well thought out as always.

I'd say the idea of loyalty among allies is a little thin. As already pointed out here, we've abandoned many allies in the past, even gone to war with them when the alliance ceased ot be profitable. Israel is a much more unique case, andd the roots of our support are found in racism.

It's difficult to explain, because so few people are familiar even with the terminology. Nazi's hate Jews, and wish to see them destroyed. Of course all clear-thinking individuals find this reprehensible. However, nazi's are not the sole group for this attitude of racial superiority among whites.

In the USA, the Nazi mentality has never strongly taken hold, because another group already exists here that provides a home for those in despereate need of bigotry. And this alternate group holds all races to be inferior to whites, but Jews are okay because they practically are white. I am speaking, of course, of the KKK.

Most Americans have no understanding of their own history in this regards, have apparently never even read, "To Kill a Mockingbird." Most people I talk to feel that the difference between the KKK and the Nazi's is irrelevant and insignificant, and these same folks wonder why they can't understand what's going on in the world today.

This ignorance is tremendously useful if you are a bigot, because when you are accused of racism, all you need do is point out all the ways you are not a Nazi, and those charges fall apart. As if only Nazis are capable of racism.


so what, whats the point of that? i think everyone knows that nazis arent the only people capable of racism, and i dont know about you but i had to read "to kill a mockingbird" in 8th grade. there is a real and tangible difference between the KKK and the nazi party. the KKK has always been and probably will always be nothing but a fringe group operating on the margins of american culture and never will gain the sort of power or acceptance that they desire because their agenda is radical, short-sighted, bigoted, and ill-conceived. the nazis were a governing power whose policies galvanized an entire country into supporting anti-semitic programs and then they proceeded to put these violent racist and cruel policies into effect in their own country and sought to spread its influence into others. id say that sounds like two totally different things to me.

i would just like to know what youre getting at with that statement.

I'd imagine that it's not just the support for Israel that pisses off muslim terrorists.Perhaps you should do some investigating as well.

I don't mean to be rude, but pure logic and imagination can only take you so far, at which point research becomes necesary.

The US does many things to piss off many people. Some of those things have a larger purpose that is more important to us than making nice with specific groups, but some actions serve no purpose whatsoever. What is disheartening is how few Americans know who we are pissing off, or to what end.

...I would just like to know what you're getting at with that statement.

Alright, then I'll try again. You listed political and organizational differences between Nazi's and the KKK. Those are not important to me at all. What I am refering to are ideological differences.

Nazi are anti-semitic, in that they hate Jews.

Th KKK is also anti-semitic, but they do not hate Jews.

The fact that you might find my second statement to be contradictory demonstrates how pervasive this agenda is within the USA. In fact, anti-semitism includes the current anti-muslim movement that has taken hold of this nation. Hating muslims is not a superior attitude to hating Jews, nor is it more strongly based in reality.

Just as the Nazi blamed the Jew for all of his problems, the NeoCon blames the Arab.

But the KKK hates Jews.

Perhaps you should do some investigating as well.


When I talk to muslims I never hear them bitch suddenly about israel when I mention america. They bitch about american policy towards muslim countries. They bitch about Iraq, they bitch about afghanistan. They bitch about saudi arabia (how saudi's are the whores of the US and how saudi sheiks are homosexual child molesters and other nice stuff), they bitch about american arrogance, etc.

When I mention Israel, they start bitching about isreal. And somewhere down the line comes the US.


Obviously I come to the conclusion that the problem muslims have with the USA is not caused solely by their policy towards Israel.

What other investigating should I do?

It's probably 'going' like it did with his old buddy South Vietnam. Or South Korea. Or France.

Well, there is always hope things get better again. After all, the UK is now US' best buddy. I reckon at one point they could kill each other. I'd imagine they even did that a bit.

Alright, then I'll try again. You listed political and organizational differences between Nazi's and the KKK. Those are not important to me at all. What I am refering to are ideological differences.

Nazi are anti-semitic, in that they hate Jews.

Th KKK is also anti-semitic, but they do not hate Jews.

The fact that you might find my second statement to be contradictory demonstrates how pervasive this agenda is within the USA. In fact, anti-semitism includes the current anti-muslim movement that has taken hold of this nation. Hating muslims is not a superior attitude to hating Jews, nor is it more strongly based in reality.

Just as the Nazi blamed the Jew for all of his problems, the NeoCon blames the Arab.

i think that organizational and political differences help shape and alter ideological goals. the desired ends of the two groups are not similar, and their dissimilarity in this respect underscores their seperation. i feel that the only thing the two may have in common is that they are or were organizations who used racism as a tool to acheive what they wanted. also, im not sure if you know, but the KKK hates themselves some jews. i believe they commonly refer to them as the ZOG machine.
what youre saying is that anti-semitism includes all semitic peoples and not just jews.

for example: from http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/semites.htm

Semites
{sem' - yts}
General Information

Semites are peoples who speak Semitic languages; the group includes Arabs, Aramaeans, Jews, and many Ethiopians. In a Biblical sense, Semites are peoples whose ancestry can be traced back to Shem, Noah's eldest son. The ancient Semitic populations were pastoral Nomads who several centuries before the Christian Era were migrating in large numbers from Arabia to Mesopotamia, the coasts of the Mediterranean Sea, and the Nile River delta. Jews and other Semites settled in villages in Judea, southern Palestine.

Present day speakers of Semitic languages are as diverse in physical, psychological, cultural, and sociological characteristics as are speakers of Indo European languages. The most prominent Semites today are Arabs and Jews. They are different in many ways, and they have absorbed a variety of European traits through centuries of migration and trade. The origin of Semitic languages, however, and many similarities in the stories of Islam and Judaism reflect a common ancient history.


i dont think that the problem is anti-semitism, i think the problem is the rise of evangelical christian conservatism. although some of these people may be anti-jew to one extent or another, their real defining feature is that they are pro-christianization of secular socio-political policies. the jews, to them represent the lesser of two evils and can be used to help combat the rise of fundamentalist islamic political power. its like the religious version of the cold war.

thanks im glad you speak for all the jews in israel. i think its pretty apparent that until the last 5 months they have done nothing but encroach upon and steal territory from palestine. that seems to me a blatant desire to take over someone elses country. thanks though for clarifying, now that i know the israelis are harmless and not promoting theocracy i can rest easy.

by the way its a broad generalization i think to paint the majority of arabs or arab nations as promoting pan islamic nationalism. look at the secular society of the UAE or even the secular society of Iraq prior to our destruction of it. a lot of those "islamic terrorists" probably dont care as much about religion as they do some kind of independence. at least it would be harder for extremist muslim fundamentalists to draw people to their cause if there werent so many arabs scared of US/Israeli/Western foreign policy and the negative effects it almost always has on their countries if they cant tow the line and give us the right amount of oil.
Palestine is not a country. There are security concerns about the borders of Israel, but this hardly qualifies as imperialism. I never did paint the majority of Arabs as fundamentalists. I am well aware the many Arab nations are secular, including the former Iraq. The PLO and recently Iran have both expressed a desire to wipe Israel off the map. I'm not sure why you would have such sympathy for Palestinians, and such total disregard for the citizens of an internationally recognized nation. I do think the Palestinians deserve peace and nationhood, but it is beyond the power of the United States to make that happen. The least we can do is help make sure there isn't another holocaust of Jews at the hands of radical muslims.

When I talk to muslims I never hear them bitch suddenly about Israel when I mention america.

This is more concrete than your earlier statement, and does imply a little work on your part, so I'll withdraw my suggestion.

I would suggest, however, that America's policy toward Israel is linked to our policy throughout the middle east and that those who suggested fixing our problems there before taking on other targets were probably onto something. It's a bit of a moot point now, actually.

For me personally the biggest revelation in investigating the events of 9/11/01 was the fact that Both Osama bin Ladin and Saddam Hussein were USA employees when they committed some of their most attrocious acts.

Now obviously I am not suggesting that bin Ladin was still on Bush's payroll, but it is inevitable that he was using skills and contacts that we had provided to him. The message I learned is that if you keep attack dogs, eventually you get bit.

As an aside, I personally have owned a few large guard dogs, but there I'm talking about big ol' pups who love me and would die for me, not fierce predators that kill for sport. Those who don't undersand that difference instinctively really shouldn't keep dogs at all.

The United States has gotten in so much trouble all around the world for helping to recreate/support Israel. why does it continue? it would seem logical to have backed off significantly in our support for them in the post-9/11 years, but that hasn't happened to a large extent. i feel that their policies exacerbate the problem of terrorism on a worldwide scale, even have played a great role in creating the problem of international Islamic terrorism, yet the United States overlooks their transgressions and instead blames palestine. its hard for me to understand the logic in this.
There's a thing called an "alliance". Ever heard of it?

Israel is also a center of military technology research which they share with us. The UAV's used against Syrian surface to air missiles is one example. They also have alot of experience in the field of intelligence, interrogation, counter-terrorism, ect...

I'msurprised that no one has mentioned the national guilt many americans still hold for the death camps.
And for the record anybody that thinks the KKK does not hate jews is wrong. Kluxers hate jews as much as anybody else

Hapsburg:


There's a thing called an "alliance". Ever heard of it?

Yeah, Hitler and Stalin had an alliance. So did the Russians with the Ottomans at one stage. Heh, alliances change like the tide.