Greetings folks. I been wondering this question lately. Why does America support Israel?

Does Israel have anything to offer America in return? Oil, perhaps? A dedicated friendship? Judging from Israel's attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 (and the subsequent cover-up), the dozens of Israeli spies caught in the USA selling sensitive information to the Russians, Israel's foiled plot to blow up the American embassy in Egypt decades ago and make it look like Arabs did it, and of course, the fact that Israel knew about the WTC attacks beforehand (at least when you see that Israeli citizens working in the towers were warned-- only ONE Israeli was killed in the WTC), it appears clear that Israel has offered little good to America.

On top of that, America's aiding of Israel's oppression against the Palestinians had led over a billion Muslims worldwide to hate the USA. Talk about making friends! Interestingly enough, if America decided to side with the Muslims instead, they would likely have access to over 50% of the world's known oil supply (from Algeria to Qatar).

So why does America support Israel???

It gives the US a stable democracy in the Middle East and a base of operations. Not to mention that if the US support was not there, Israel would be under attack even more than it is now.

The Muslims would still hate the US because according to them, most of the US are infidels. If the Middle Eastern states ever took Israel, it would be a slaughter.

So why does America support Israel???

They make some great falafels.

It gives the US a stable democracy in the Middle East and a base of operations.

Turkey?

Not to mention that if the US support was not there, Israel would be under attack even more than it is now.


That is not the responsibility of the United States.

The Muslims would still hate the US because according to them, most of the US are infidels.

Not true, before tacit US support for Israel, the US wasn't seen in such a bad light... oh and the debacle in Iran. I think prior to WWII the US was actually a country willing to look up to.

If the Middle Eastern states ever took Israel, it would be a slaughter.

Oh you mean what Israeli's did to the Pals. on their own land. Poetic dare I say.

Originally posted by truth
It gives the US a stable democracy in the Middle East and a base of operations. Not to mention that if the US support was not there, Israel would be under attack even more than it is now.

The Muslims would still hate the US because according to them, most of the US are infidels. If the Middle Eastern states ever took Israel, it would be a slaughter.

-WOW, little simplyfying things :eek:
-Its all about democracy and Israels security :rolleyes: With the nukes now that Israel haves, I think they are pretty safe.
Show me democratic nation and I show you corruption...

Here is something for the matter
http://www.leftcurve.org/LC27WebPages/IsraelLobby.html

And lets the source bashing begin :D

I'm failry certain that its all bullshit that israelis were warned about the WTC etc. But then you likley wouldnt believe anyone who said that.

The simplest way to look at it is that the USA supports Israel because their interests happen to coincide. And vice versa. If i remember correctly, the USA has only been really important to israel in the last 30 or so years. And when it is no longer useful, it'll get dropped by them, and the USA would quite happily drop ISrael if someone offered it enough money.

A friend of mine from Iran, he lives in Australia now, was in the USA working for a few years in Texas. He once said he landed in NY and was pulled out of the line to be searched. The person who did the searching was Jewish. But, apparently, the Jewish man apologized for having to do this humiliating search for weapons etcetera. In fact, it was some “typical-Anglo” Americans (senor-employees) who thought it would be funny to make a Jewish guy embarrass an Iranian – just for laughs and kicks.

It’s something to think about.

Anyway, my Iranian friend asked some guys in Texas: why do Americans love the Jewish so much? The response he got was “we don’t love the Jewish We hate them. But we hate the Arabs even more.” My friend asked why? “Because you let the Jews kick your ass.”

Something else to think about maybe?

From a personal experience. I was once in NY for work. I was raised in – small-town-USA. For the first time in my life I saw this Orthodox Jew. I must have gaped or something. He gave me such an evil look that to this day I swear I could read his mind: It seemed to say “what are you doing in my city”. Seriously Creepy.

I think it probably boils down to ME oil, religious kooks, and dirty money. I have a number of Arabic friends and I don’t think it’s anti-Semitic to hate Israel. Just look at how they kill these little kids – just sick. I can’t stand that Government. I don’t personally know a non-Jewish American that supports that government. (Thank god Lieberman didn’t get into the Oval office – I think we would have been so Pro-Israel).

But that said, I do know a few American Jewish as well. And their nice people. Albeit, completely and utterly brain washed. But off the topic of Israel their quite normal.

I also have friends in NY that hate the Jewish communities there. To them, they're leaches on society – using their religion to get out of local taxes etcetera. One peep out of someone and up comes the “Anti-Semitic card” :) But these people must get away with it by paying off some officials and on up the money goes.

Then there’s the psycho religious-right kooks and The Second Coming of Christ and your going to have various reasons for people to support Israel.

I’ll leave you with this:
My Iranian friend also said this (just yesterday). The Arabs hate the Jews and would kill them. So do the Persians - it’s their wet-dream to kill the Jews. But the Arabs, well, they also hate the Kurds who have all the oil in the north and want to kill them too- and would if they had a chance. Like Iranians/Persians - they want to kill the Kurds as well, and crushed all Kurd resistance in Iran. And the Persians hate the Arabs as well and would kill them off as well. Persians consider Arabs sub-human. As for the Turks - they hate the Arabs and Kurds, And the Kurds hate the Arabs and Persians and especially the Turks. And the Turkish Kurds hate the Turks. And bla bla bla . . .

And THAT is how the average American thinks of the Middle East. Just like my Iranian friend. That the ME will forever be a warring forever. And that the ME is only doing as well as it is because the West buys it’s oil. (Except my Iranian friend also said Persia will do fine without oil – but Arabia is f*cked).

Now all you need is American apathy (so long as they have fuel) and basically anyone can get away with anything. And that is the KEY to it all. American apathy. So I wouldn't say that Americans support Israel. It's just they think like my Iranian friend. That region will always be warring and so why waste our time on it. Just trade with the Government that have been ruling the people since before America was even founded (Like Arabia) and so long as the oil keeps coming then what-ever.

I’m not saying that I think like that. I don’t even drink Star Bucks because my NY friend said they send money to Israel and asked me to please do him the favor of never going there. So I said OK and I don’t. But I think your average American will just walk right into Star Bucks. Because it’s convent and they could really give a crap one way or the other. Which really if you think about it is how all people are.

Ask yourself this. Do you care about the Tibetans? The Vietnamese? The North Koreans? If the answer is “well I just don’t have the time to worry about them – Because I’m worrying about these other things” Well, that how you’re average American thinks about the ME and Israel.

As I expect you know, Pakman, the modern secular nation of Israel is commonly confused by the US public with the Biblical tribes of the same name. As a result there is a strong association between Israel and Christianity. Zionism is popularly considered the fitting response to persecution and crimes against Jewish people, especially those of European background, and more specifically, modern Israel is considered atonement for Germany's crimes in the mid 20th century. These affinities and assumptions do not have to make sense to be of extremely pervasive influence.

On a superficial level, Israel is considered to have much in common with America's own mythos, including frontierism, "manifest destiny", capitalism, representative democracy, cosmopolitanism, and modernism. Americans who have traveled little and who have little or no meaningful interaction with foreigners can identify far more easily with Israelis than Arabs, because the lenses of culture and media have become accomodated to the above factors.

Anti-zionism has been powerfully associated in the American collective psyche with "Anti-Semitism", fascism, and terrorism. Doubts and accusations regarding Israel are, in America's most base popular assumptions, heresy.

From Israel's inception and through the conflicts of her creation, ethnic redistribution and expansion, the US government has been instrumental in the zionist cause, and has funded and armed the Israeli government as it has no other on earth. For all the vacillations and reversals of US Foreign policy, support for Israel has been a singular constant. Questioning such unusually consistent policy, and our most closely guarded international relationship is intimidating, uncomfortable- acutely conflicting.

As a result, America's political investment in Israel goes so deep that it is nearly impossible for a vocal critic of Israel to be heard in the main, and utterly impossible for such a critic to be elected into office.

The US and Israel are deeply conjoined, and their fates entwined. Americans must carefully, honestly examine Israel's situation in order to understand her own. In history, arrogance and isolation never lead to happy endings.

Mike you have commited one grevious error in a other good post. Israel doesn't = Jew. ;)

Originally posted by nico
Mike you have commited one grevious error in a other good post. Israel doesn't = Jew. ;) I really didn’t mean to suggest that. But it is hard to give an answer to this question because there are so many answers. I was really trying to give some examples of how people view Jews in America, the ME and Israel’s part in it. You are right though.
1) Not all Jews support (or even want a) state of Israel.
2) Judaism is a religion not a race.
These two points seem to be quite mixed up in the average persons mind – and maybe even some Jewish.

I suggest you read my essay on the subject, scroll down.

ISU (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30784&perpage=20&pagenumber=2)

was really trying to give some examples of how people view Jews in America, the ME and Israel’s part in it.

The question really becomes...how long will this love fest last with the US. I think once Americans get that Israel is a MAJOR reason for events like 9/11 and hatred of America...the tide will change. But then you have the "democracy, and freedom" card that Israel likes to play. It's a war of the will.

*ask Israeli arabs about this "freedom".
;)

Israel's attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 (and the subsequent cover-up)
ha

the dozens of Israeli spies caught in the USA selling sensitive information to the Russians
haha

Israel's foiled plot to blow up the American embassy in Egypt decades ago and make it look like Arabs did it
hahaha

and of course, the fact that Israel knew about the WTC attacks beforehand
hahahaha

the cover-ups, the conspiracies, the lies and deceipt, the brainwash, the mythical power of the Jews, the bird and the bees, the brain on cocaine that disappeared from peoples' heads... i can't believe grown intelligent people make themselves believe that stuff.


if America decided to side with the Muslims instead, they would likely have access to over 50% of the world's known oil supply
yet they don't.
tells you something about americans, doesn't it? profit maximizing is not the main goal... whadoyou know!

So why does America support Israel???
because Israel is right. and the "palestinians"...aka "pals" (who's pals? certainly not my pals) are wrong.

although at this time it seems politically convenient for the US to attempt to sacrifice Israel for their own political gain. too bad.

Originally posted by guthrie
I'm failry certain that its all bullshit that israelis were warned about the WTC etc. But then you likley wouldnt believe anyone who said that.

I perhaps stepped out of the line there. Sorry. However, it is a fact that there was only one Jewish there that tragic day.

Originally posted by Michael
And THAT is how the average American thinks of the Middle East. Just like my Iranian friend. That the ME will forever be a warring forever. And that the ME is only doing as well as it is because the West buys it’s oil. (Except my Iranian friend also said Persia will do fine without oil – but Arabia is f*cked).

As a Muslim, I agree that Arabs and the ME would never be capable of holding a empire together, unless they are united by religion. Then do they become a strong unified force.

Also guys, I'll give you some background info on myself. I'm a Muslim and I was brought up believing America supports Israel because Israel owns all the big companies here. If America did something they did not like, they would pull out and hurt America greatly economically.

However, I have not just heard this from just my parents. When I asked my friends at school(Americans), even they said that was the reason. However, others did say that it was something between Christianity and Judiasm and God.

ISU (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=30784&perpage=20&pagenumber=2) was an interesting thread I had not seen before (the poll was a bit too polar for me to vote in though).

nico: "how long will this love fest last ... once Americans get that Israel is a MAJOR reason for events like 9/11 and hatred of America...the tide will change."

Such a change in perspective is very difficult for Americans, but I can't rule it out. As the information age gets into gear, zealots and fundamentalists sense their growing vulnerability under the burgeoning global bandwidth of ideas, and will increasingly incite paranoia and conflict. We desperately need a lot of cool heads in the near future.

otheadp: "i can't believe grown intelligent people make themselves believe that stuff"

Obviously, information that reflects poorly on Israeli policy frightens you. Fortunately, it is becoming less suppressible with time.

"although at this time it seems politically convenient for the US to attempt to sacrifice Israel for their own political gain. too bad."

Don't worry, America is not going to sacrifice Israel. We'll reform our attitudes and policies together, by our own understanding and/or the imperative of the world outside.

Obviously, information that reflects poorly on Israeli policy frightens you. Fortunately, it is becoming less suppressible with time.
didn't you figure it out yet? i'm part of the conspiracy!

otheadp: I'm not positing a conspiracy, and I think you know that. If you don't know that, please review the thread and try again. If you are just trying to baselessly discredit any critique of America's support for Israel by labeling it alarmist conspiricism, then don't bother. If it just gives you a laugh, well, that's fine with me, but it doesn't contribute much.

To name a few episodes salient in America's relationship with Israel that come to mind which I have reason to believe really happened, all reflecting on the nature of the State of Israel, all prominent in the baggage the US carries along on our new Crusade for (ostensibly) Liberty and Security in the mideast:

The King David Hotel bombing, the Deir Yassin massacre, the attack on the USS Liberty, the Sabra-Shatila massacres, and general ethnic cleansing and persecution of Palestinians.

I have no reason to believe any tripe about Israeli complicity in 9-11, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, etc. If I am a conspiracy nut as you are implying, please cite an example from one of my posts rather than taking such a cheap swipe. What I find far more entertaining and worthwhile than slinging mud at each other here is that we come to understand facts and implications for the future. If I am wrong about any occurances I have mentioned, please point out my errors with a bit less broad a brush, and I will be grateful.

alarmist conspiricism
so that's what they call it nowadays?
what a genius new name. so creative :rolleyes:

The King David Hotel bombing, the Deir Yassin massacre, the attack on the USS Liberty, the Sabra-Shatila massacres, and general ethnic cleansing and persecution of Palestinians.
1) all of these have been adressed many many many times. and not only by me on this board. look for info, and you'll find it.
2) let's say, just for argument's sake, that those 4 abovementioned things happened exactly as the "alarmist conspiricists" say it did. now, compare what the other side did to us. .... if this criteria should be the deciding factor on who's more right/wrong, then sure, we can play this stupid game.. and the arabs would still lose.
they'll lose because their massacres of Jews outweigh the [ridiculous notion of] massacres the Jews committed against arabs.
and when it comes to attacking US interests, well the arabs (including dear ol' "pallys") are always 1st in line while Israel is the 1st to help when US needs it.

Come, now- please don't squirm into those twisted ethics again: Nobody's victimization outweighs someone elses, and clearly one crime does not justify another.

There are many cases where Israel has acted against the interests of the US: The Jon Pollard case illuminated Mossad's authorization to compromise US national security and interests. Sharon's recent defiance of President Bush over the occupation may have been the most brazen disrespect shown at this high diplomatic level since Saddam was enjoying his pissing contest with the Bush family.

Every country normally acts in its own interest over that of others, and very often Israel's interests are very much at odds with America's. This is especially true in the case of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs. As Israel's "parent", the US is held responsible for the "child's" most disruptive and criminal behaviors. In my opinion the little brat sorely needs firm but fair behavioral correction from his responsible elder.

America carries a significant burden of complicity and vulnerability as Israel's bankroller, armorer, and apologist. We Americans suffer economically and politically for Israel at the hands of those who retaliate by the rules, and we increasingly die by the hands of those who do not.

They make some great falafels.
yyechh!
Arabs (as in the NON-ISRAELI middle easterners ) make better ones. When was the last time you had an Israeli falafel vs. an Egyptian one?

please don't squirm into those twisted ethics again
you went there, not me

The Jon Pollard case illuminated Mossad's authorization to compromise US national security and interests
1) the only real thing that can be argued against Israel.
2) he's getting an unusually harsh treatment for whatever he's done. when Russian spies (an enemy nation) were caught in the past, agents who were responsible for death of US agents, they were sentenced to life in prison. Pollard is from an ally nation, and he has not caused death of any agents. not only is he serving life in prison, he is in SOLITARY CONFINEMENT. talk about favoritism eh?

Sharon's recent defiance of President Bush over the occupation may have been the most brazen disrespect shown at this high diplomatic level since Saddam was enjoying his pissing contest with the Bush family
you gotta be kidding me.

ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs
u're some kind of a comedian aren't you.

In my opinion the little brat sorely needs firm but fair behavioral correction from his responsible elder
you are a sad joke man.

you're blaming one side for X, but exhonorating the other side for doing X-times-10!

before i respond any further to your 'conclussions', please do some readings of literature of both sides. CNN and al-Jazeera is not enough.

Arabs make better ones. When was the last time you had an Israeli falafel vs. an Egyptian one?
when was the last time you had an Israeli falafel? at least we keep sanitary standards :D

at least we keep sanitary standards
hmm so, you're Israeli huh? Which must be why you find the oppression the Palestininans deal with, part of a comedy act.
ethnic cleansing of Palestinian Arabs
u're some kind of a comedian aren't you

And no, my Israeli friend, Egyptians are much cleaner than you.

your spin attempt is really poor.

the funny part is not the "ethnic cleansing", but the claim that "ethnic cleansing" exists. it doesn't.

Originally posted by miss khan


And no, my Israeli friend, Egyptians are much cleaner than you.

i have to agree with you. they are the smelliest people i ever known. i think they have no water in there contry and take no shower:p :D

Originally posted by otheadp
Israel's attack on the USS Liberty in 1967 (and the subsequent cover-up)
ha


-Gotta admit that you always have strong unbiased opinions when arguing behalf of Israel...ha ! Thats is really strong defence.
Did bring to mind one thread where Jerreks responses were:
BAAAAA BAA BAAAA BAAA....well, here is some ha haha haas for you...

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0693/9306019.htm

And just tell me if didnt like the source and I will dig you another one ;)

No doubt about it, I am biased towards Israel on most issues. I believe we have a duty to help protect the lone bastion of democracy in the region, and aside from geo-politics, I think the jews have earned a safe haven for enduring the shiznet that has been dished out to them for so many years. But........when it comes to the Liberty I take issue.

I got interested in this story several years ago and read everything I could get my hands on about this incident. Obviously there is not the wealth of info about it that there should be because the ship was acting for the NSA, and CIA is a veritable open house compared to the NSA in terms of public knowledge of just what all they are involved with. But everything I have read, and certainly the web pages tended by the survivors of the incident paint a stark picture to me. This was a deliberate attack by Israel on a clearly marked U.S. warship in international waters.

There can be no doubt that the Israeli pilots knew exactly what ship they were observing and subsequently attacking. Even during the attack (which lasted about 45 minutes from what I recall) repeated radio calls from the Liberty were ignored.

But even with that incident staining the relationship, I still support Israels attempts to maintain a peaceful, non muslim republic in the midst of the chaos of the ME. Sharon and Arafat have too much bad blood between them for their to be lasting peace as long as they are both involved. MY hope is that once they are both gone maybe some of those 50 year old vendettas can die with them.

nice source.
interesting to note that the pilots that supposedly "confessed" have no names.

keep those credible sources coming.
while u're at it, put a link to National Enquirer's version of the events.

15ofthe19:
did you read the pro-Israel sites about this?
there have been many investigations, countless interviews... there were at least 2 threads about this in recent months on this board. find them... i really hate being repetitive.

Originally posted by Pakman
[B]Greetings folks. I been wondering this question lately. Why does America support Israel?

HI:
1- I have never been on US soil, but I have been told that America is the greatest democracy in the world.
2- I have never beeb to Israel, but I have been told that it is the greatest democracy in Middle East.
Conclusion: No wonder the greats support each other.
quack-quack Thanks

Because our politicians are on their payroll!! Period!!


http://www.aipac.org/

http://www.lijewishlinks.org/bicpac/activist.html

http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/961213/aipac.html

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1188/8811037.htm


Godless.

these damn jews control the world i tells ya!! :eek:

Morteza:
are you being sarcastic?

Not to commit threadjack, but you seem to be convinced Israel bears no guilt in the attack on the Liberty? You realize that the Israeli Torpedo boats were shooting at life rafts don't you?

1- I have never been on US soil, but I have been told that America is the greatest democracy in the world.
I have never beeb to Israel, but I have been told that it is the greatest democracy in Middle East.
Do you always believe everything you're told?

Originally posted by 15ofthe19
Not to commit threadjack, but you seem to be convinced Israel bears no guilt in the attack on the Liberty? You realize that the Israeli Torpedo boats were shooting at life rafts don't you?

i do. it was Israeli fighter pilots who bombed the ship.
the argument is that had the pilots known it was an American ship they wouldn't have bombed it.

and liferafts or not, those were (at the time considered to be) enemy combatants.

This is what Israel offers America:

Originally posted by otheadp
the argument is that had the pilots known it was an American ship they wouldn't have bombed it.

That's a flimsy argument.

And what of reports that the fighter jets were unmarked?

I don't know if the fighter pilots or torpedo boat crews knew the Liberty was an American ship, but I'm pretty sure that somebody in the Israeli chain of command must have known who was on that ship.

So what if the gunboats thought they were enemy combatants? What has that got to do with the fact that they fired on lifeboats? What justification could there be for firing on a un-armed lifeboat?

I never bought the premise that Israel did not know about the USS Liberty, because of this:

During the Six Day War between Israel and the Arab States, the American intelligence ship
USS Liberty was attacked for 75 minutes in international waters by Israeli aircraft and
motor torpedo boats. Thirty-four men died and 172 were wounded.

_____________________

Israel claims they mistook our ship for the out-of-service Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir
and that we brought the attack upon ourselves by operating in a war zone without displaying a flag. Not so.
We were in international waters, far from any fighting, and flew a bright, clean, new American flag. The flag we flew is on display at the National Cryptologic Museum,
Fort Meade, Maryland and can be seen there, or in the USS Liberty Images Archive.


http://www.ussliberty.org/g/libflag.gif


source (http://www.ussliberty.org/)

the US prolly supporst israel for the same reason the supported saddam hussein and bin laden before. years from now our leaders will prolly be saying F*CK!

Some are saying it now, in private, of course;)

Originally posted by 15ofthe19
So what if the gunboats thought they were enemy combatants? What has that got to do with the fact that they fired on lifeboats? What justification could there be for firing on a un-armed lifeboat?

remember how in "Saving Private Ryan" the skinny soldier convinced Tom Hanks to release the German POW instead of executing him? and how later the German ended up killing more US soldiers? that's sort of the same.

that's, of course, IF the Israeli gunboats did shoot at the lifeboats..

oteahdp

that is shitty logic. you are basically saying i should kill some guy joe now, just in case he might kill me later.

Originally posted by otheadp
that's, of course, IF the Israeli gunboats did shoot at the lifeboats..

The Israelis probably thought the lifeboats were an Egyptian freighter...

Originally posted by shrubby pegasus
that is shitty logic. you are basically saying i should kill some guy joe now, just in case he might kill me later.

It's amazing that some people are arguing such a cut-and-dry case, isn't it?

if you say so

You seemed to be saying so as well, since you referred to otheadp's argument as "shitty logic". I was agreeing with you.

ah hehe, i wasnt sure who you were aiming that at ( :

Your innitial question can be answered on a great variety of levels, let us point out the most obvious, current and direct one.

The Bush administration have still a zionist left here and there after Ari Fleischer quit the scene :

Paul Dundes Wolfowitz - Deputy Secretary, Department of Defense

Richard Perle - Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy.

Joshua Bolten - Deputy Chief of Staff

Eliot Cohen - Defence Policy Board

Dov Zakheim - Undersecretary of Defense (Controller)

Lewis Libby - Chief of Staff to the Vice President

Ken Melman - White House Political Director

Jay Lefkowitz - Deputy Assistant to the President and Director of the Domestic Policy Council

David Frum - Speechwriter

Brad Blakeman - White House Director of Scheduling

Adam Goldman - White House Liaison to the Jewish Community

Chris Gersten - Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, Administration for Children and Families at HHS

Elliott Abrams - Director of the National Security Council's Office for Democracy, Human Rights and International Operations

Mark D. Weinberg - Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs

Douglas Feith - Under Secretary of Defense for Policy

Michael Chertoff - Head of the Justice Department's criminal division

Daniel Kurtzer - Ambassador to Israel

Cliff Sobel - Ambassador to the Netherlands

Stuart Bernstein - Ambassador to Denmark

Nancy Brinker - Ambassador to Hungary

Frank Lavin - Ambassador to Singapore

Ron Weiser - Ambassador to Slovakia

Mel Sembler - Ambassador to Italy

Martin Silverstein - Ambassador to Uruguay

Interesting how a few of these Zionists find themselves unified with other members of the administration throughPNAC (http://www.newamericancentury.org)

Paul Wolfowitz is now deputy defense secretary. John Bolton is undersecretary of state. Richard Perle is assistant secretary of Defense for International Security Policy. Stephen Cambone is head of the Pentagon's Office of Program, Analysis and Evaluation. Eliot Cohen and Devon Cross are members of the Defense Policy Board, which advises Rumsfeld. I. Lewis Libby is chief of staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Dov Zakheim is controller for the Defense Department.

PNAC.INFO (http://www.pnac.info) is a very interesting site researching PNAC activities.

I believe your questioning following this general question, takes as premis that the factors supportive for Israel have to be argued. This based on a distinction of nations made between Israel and Amerika. As you can see however, this distinction is only partial, a great part of Amerikans relevant on the political scene are zionist by virtue of being ' born Jewish', and often have double (US-Israeli) citizenship . This is clearly ideological motivation that played role in many administrations, and of this kind plays role as well in non-born Jewish zionism that is overwhelmingly present in Amerika and throughout the western world. Some factors are :

1) Amerikan-Christianity
2) Israel's western culture
3) Europe's holocaust guilt

Other factors are more practical

1) Economical pressure
2) Media pressure

Did I leave anything out ?

you are basically saying i should kill some guy joe now, just in case he might kill me later
in time of war? yes. and these were not some "guy joe"s. they were considered as enemy combatants. oh, let's just totally ignore that fact, right?

ghassy:
those names you mentioned are names of Jewish officials. anyone remotely pro Israel, on the smallest topic, is considered by the haters as "Zionist", which in the haters' mind is something symbolizing pure evil.
and besides, most of them are not in influential positions.
ambassadors, speech writer (unless you think speech writers determine policy), director of scheduling, Liaison to the Jewish Community, Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs...and on and on.
only a few are influential on foreign policy.


the haters think that "Zionists control America",
while Jews think that high-level officials in the US that are Jewish are BAD for Israel. if Lieberman gets elected as president (he won't) it'd be the biggest catastrophe for Israel. he'd jump out of his skin trying to prove everyone that he's an impartial, objective player, not influenced by Israel... an attempt at futility... and in the process will destroy Israel and even Jewish interests in US.

Originally posted by otheadp
in time of war? yes.

Was Israel at war with America? Or with the crew of the USS Liberty?

Originally posted by otheadp
and these were not some "guy joe"s. they were considered as enemy combatants.

Americans are "enemy combatants" in the eyes of Israelis?

Fascinating.

Originally posted by otheadp
oh, let's just totally ignore that fact, right?

And you seem to be totally ignoring the fact that the Israelis fired first against an American ship in international waters.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Some factors are :

1) Amerikan-Christianity
2) Israel's western culture
3) Europe's holocaust guilt

4) The barbaric and theocratic nature of many Islamic nations in that region is enough to make many normal people support Israel as a default.

I agree with the three you listed, but you misspelled American.

I do find it interesting that America and, for a time, the USSR is/was so pro-Israel despite the fact that they played a major role in ending the Holocaust. Most European nations are Christian and some played a role in helping the Germans exterminate Jews during WWII (French collaborators, for example), yet they aren't nearly as Zionist as America is and the USSR was.

By the way; do you really think that America's ambassador to Israel apparently being Jewish is particularly damning?

Originally posted by Galt
4) The barbaric and theocratic nature of many Islamic nations in that region is enough to make many normal people support Israel as a default.

* Please explain what you perceive as 'nature'

* Please explain how any 'barbarism' would exceed negro-slavery, native American holocaust, using nuclear weapons and so on, for an Amerikan to have a logical recognition of 'barbarism' in anything accuring in 'certain' Islamic nations ?

* All the nations ISRAEL has serious issues with are not centered on religious views. As a matter of fact, the most religious centered nation is USA's greatest ally.

I do agree though, this is indeed how Amerikans perceive the Islamic nations and Israel's position against them, added with the 3 previously mentioned reasons. You provide a perfect sociological example your self, thank you for that.

I agree with the three you listed, but you misspelled American.

Actually I call it distinguishing 50 states from 2 continents of which one is partially occupied by these 50 states.

I do find it interesting that America and, for a time, the USSR is/was so pro-Israel despite the fact that they played a major role in ending the Holocaust.

Most European nations are Christian and some played a role in helping the Germans exterminate Jews during WWII (French collaborators, for example), yet they aren't nearly as Zionist as America is and the USSR was.

* The holocaust was a post-world war 2 phenomena in the consciousness of Europeans, Amerikans and Russians. Stopping any holocaust was accidental, their main objective was destruction of Nazi-Germany.

* Interesting how USA used to have some anti-semitic tendencies, while the progroms in Russia weren't too friendly either. USSR wasnt always that zionist either.

By the way; do you really think that America's ambassador to Israel apparently being Jewish is particularly damning?

I do not care what his religion is, did I make it seem as if I did ?

Do you not have any nice things to say about Wolf, Perle, Libby or Zakheim ?

Originally posted by otheadp
ghassy:

those names you mentioned are names of Jewish officials. anyone remotely pro Israel, on the smallest topic, is considered by the haters as "Zionist", which in the haters' mind is something symbolizing pure evil.

potty:

Do you understand what a zionist is or do you not ?

This comparable to saying that somebody even remotely involved in organized crime is wrongly considered a criminal.

* the right of the zionist state to EXIST and EXPAND is not a small topic in the question of zionism.'And contradictory to your claims they are not 'remotely' in favor, it is their ideology that their should be a strong and powerfull zionist state in the middle east.

* Im not sure who the haters are you speak of, but I am sure there is more hatred in you than there is in me. Be'ahavat Klal Yisrael :D

* Evil again is your idea of things, im not that satanically oriented. So I dont see how this would have any point on anything I have said.

and besides, most of them are not in influential positions. ambassadors, speech writer (unless you think speech writers determine policy), director of scheduling, Liaison to the Jewish Community, Assistant Secretary of Housing and Urban Development for Public Affairs...

First let me ask you, do you actually have awareness of who they are and how they function ? Have you even heard of most names before you read them in my post ?

Indeed I do agree not all positions are seriously relevant, however they all reflect a relation between Amerika and Israel that is positive, and that was what this topic was about.

Not all who you mentioned have no relevance, speech writers indeed do not determine policy but most certainly formulate them. Are you aware how relevant formulations are, and therefor the position of the person in charge of the formulation ?

The liaison to the Jewish community is immensly important to be a zionist, are you serious on this one ? Should they have a Neturei Karta instead ?

only a few are influential on foreign policy.

In relation to PNAC and defence indeed, now can you think of the reasons why this might be relevant in relation to Israel ?

contradictory to your claims they are not 'remotely' in favor, it is their ideology that their should be a strong and powerfull zionist state in the middle east
how much in favor they are, is a matter of opinion. the paranoids and the haters will claim / believe that the Zionists are will try to take over teh entire middle east.

but I am sure there is more hatred in you than there is in me
mhmmm.. keep talking

they all reflect a relation between Amerika and Israel that is positive, and that was what this topic was about.
the topic is not about the friendly relationship but about why AmeriCa supports Israel politically, which is part of that relationship, but is a different thing. US is friends with other countries but it doesn't get involved in their political problems.

The liaison to the Jewish community is immensly important to be a zionist, are you serious on this one ? Should they have a Neturei Karta instead ?
1) neturei karta don't represent the whole Jewish community in the US.
2) whether the liaison is zionist or not is irrelevant. it has no impact on determining foreign policy

speech writers indeed do not determine policy
that's right.
and whatever they write is checked. if it's not approved, it's rewritten.


just because US and Israeli interests are similar sometimes does not mean one controls the other.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
* Please explain what you perceive as 'nature'

I perceive "nature" to be the way a nation's citizens (particularly women and numerical minorities) are treated. No country is perfect of course, but women in America or Austria generally aren't killed by their families if they are raped (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35663), for example.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
* Please explain how any 'barbarism' would exceed negro-slavery, native American holocaust, using nuclear weapons and so on, for an Amerikan to have a logical recognition of 'barbarism' in anything accuring in 'certain' Islamic nations ?

It doesn't exceed slavery or mistreatment of American Indians in its atrociousness. But unlike all of these things, mistreatment of Middle Easterners by Middle Easterners still occurs.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
* All the nations ISRAEL has serious issues with are not centered on religious views. As a matter of fact, the most religious centered nation is USA's greatest ally.

I don't consider Saudi Arabia to be an ally, and how much our politicians may like the Saudis probably has little effect on how the general public views their society as a whole. I don't give bonus points to brutal societies just because they get along better with some politician than the next guy.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
I do agree though, this is indeed how Amerikans perceive the Islamic nations and Israel's position against them, added with the 3 previously mentioned reasons. You provide a perfect sociological example your self, thank you for that.

American perception of the numerous Crapistans in that region and all over the world is based on the behavior of the people who live in and run those nations. That behavior tends to be poor when compared to civilized nations.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
* Interesting how USA used to have some anti-semitic tendencies, while the progroms in Russia weren't too friendly either. USSR wasnt always that zionist either.

Wherever you have people of different races, ethnicities and religions you will always have conflicts based on those differences. Was there anti-Semitism in America then and even now? Absolutely. But the general public of America wasn't throwing Jews into the ovens our turning over Jews in our own country to the Nazis.

Originally posted by Ghassan Kanafani
Do you not have any nice things to say about Wolf, Perle, Libby or Zakheim ?

I don't care about any of those guys. They are likely all neo-conservatives, which means they are just big-government leftists who like the military.

just because US and Israeli interests are similar sometimes does not mean one controls the other.

"The Israelis control the policy in the congress and the senate."

-- Senator Fullbright, Chair of Senate Foreign Relations Committee: 10/07/1973 on CBS' "Face the Nation".

__________________________________________________

"I am aware how almost impossible it is in this country to carry out a foreign policy [in the Middle East] not approved by the Jews..... terrific control the Jews have over the news media and the barrage the Jews have built up on congressmen .... I am very much concerned over the fact that the Jewish influence here is completely dominating the scene and making it almost impossible to get congress to do anything they don't approve of. The Israeli embassy is practically dictating to the congress through influential Jewish people in the country"

-----Sec. of State John Foster Dulles quoted on p.99 of Fallen Pillars by Donald Neff

_______________________________________________


Peres warned Sharon that refusing to heed incessant American requests for a cease-fire with the Palestinians would endanger Israeli interests and "turn the US against us. "Sharon reportedly yelled at Peres, saying "don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America."



And there is more Pro-Israel fun here :
Pro-Israel fun (http://www.mediamonitors.net/khodr49.html)

your "proof" is nothing but a few opinions.
if you take THAT as proof.... well then you're a nincompoop (i love that word)

Originally posted by Galt
I perceive "nature" to be the way a nation's citizens (particularly women and numerical minorities) are treated. No country is perfect of course, but women in America or Austria generally aren't killed by their families if they are raped, for example.

I am happy you explained, there were other thoughts that acurred in association with a 'nature' . Let me ask you this though, why do you feel the need to insert all these rhetorical elements in your argumentation ? Do you believe it somehow results in avoiding a logical compare of X to Y in the treatment of it's minorities and woman ?

Perhaps you can also explain me how allofasudden Palestinians of yours started existing ? As far as I am aware you and your 'source' do not acknowledge this entity, does convenience bend the rule ? It is no argument, I just ask out of curiosity. As for the arguments :

*By 'proving' non-generality in occurance in Amerika and Austria in a comparative assumption of opposition with X, you imply X to have 'general' occurance of this type of act. This would be a ridiculous assertion, are you making it ? If so then please compare it to the regular incest in certain Amerikan communities, classes or regions.

*This Palestinian 'entity' to be compared is some few million concentrated people (and tribal to be more specific) while the United States of north America have 100 times as many people that occupy a somewhat larger piece of land. Please take 280 million Arabs if you wish to conclude any 'nature' as defined by treatment of minorities and woman, and not the worst example that you could find. Many acts are included in the formula that concludes this 'nature' ,not merely one act you happen to point out conveniently.

An example would be the many rapists that cannot wait to volunteer for the rape and murder of that girl, without any family ties or sense of 'honor' . We could include elements on the levels of interaction between say the teared apart Amerikan 15 year old and her 3 kids and her environment, or crackwhores prostituting themselves on streetcorners and their environment, at least that Palestinian woman has any honor, regardless of her act of ignorance and dispair.

Due to the arguments given above Im affraid I cannot agree with the first part of your conclusion regarding nature, in this supposed west vs Islam compare that you seem to be trying to present.

*If the compare will not be based on 'generality' through demographics and the variety of acts, but simply a compare between one singular act and the other.

Somehow the thought of 2 brothers raping their sister and having their mother kill the poor girl, seems less worse than certain Petaluma's raping their 3 year old daughter having their best friends video-tape it.

Savegery is at such high levels, people actually feel the need to make up entire threads (http://www.jmartinmft.com/wwwboard/messages/2831.html) about their husband raping his original children since the age of 2 .

As I think about, perhaps I ought to consider weither I am agreement with you in your thought regarding 'nature' ,perhaps we could consider that nature, also includes a certain psychological status of the citizens.

This makes me think about those fun homo-aids fests in which all sorts of sero-positive and sero-negative homosexuals gather to consciously and intentionally become infected and infect others with aids ? What about your blood-drinking vampire cults, what about your cannibalist serial killers like Jeffrey Dahmer ?

But ofcourse all of it is nothing compared to a mother that just found out her 2 psycho sons have raped her girl and now shes gonna have a frankenstein child that to her mind is the epitome of shame, and out of despair murders her daughter.

The second part of your argument relies on treatment of minority's, I am sure there ar eplenty examples for you to come up with I am curious to know why you have just let it be.

You might have already guessed, but I disagree with this part just as well. Again if we take Amerika, we would see that the treatment of minorities (Arabs are popular lately) are not that wonderfull, and certainly not any better than in the contemporary compare to todays Arab countries.

In addition, with the knowledge that the Americas were 100% native some 500 years ago, after millenia there still are minority's practicing their original culture,religion and speaking their original tongue, while in the America's .... well you now have 'mestizo's' ,I say that's at the very least interesting :bugeye:

Most interesting is the role of divide and conquer in both scenarios, one enforcing the other suffering because of.

It doesn't exceed slavery or mistreatment of American Indians in its atrociousness. But unlike all of these things, mistreatment of Middle Easterners by Middle Easterners still occurs.

It has a history this mistreatment, again I point to the divisive policy imposed upon the middle east this last century. More importantly, do you believe that with dropping slavery (as in the word) and acting like native's are ok now means that mistreatment does not accur ?

And perhaps you care to include the impact of this savage society on the rest of the world it mistreats ? USA holds the record, the competition no longer exists.

In addition, I also mentioned nuclear events, which was not too long ago and lead to the argument of general warfare, does that not occur anymore either ? 3 years in the new millenium and already they couldn't controll them selves from ravashing 2 nations.

I don't consider Saudi Arabia to be an ally, and how much our politicians may like the Saudis probably has little effect on how the general public views their society as a whole. I don't give bonus points to brutal societies just because they get along better with some politician than the next guy.

I am happy you present yourself so wonderfully reflecting the minds of your society. The question remains, why does your government, which ought to represent y'all, completely disagree with your idea of Saudi . Either they don't care what you think or you don't coprehend how things work, perhaps both ?

It is merely a miscommunication that I am pointing out, between motivations of government policy in regard to the zionist state (and others in the middle east such as Saudi) and the perception of these motives in regard to any motivatiosn the public may have. Afterall weither public perceives Saudi as an ally or not, they are more loyal to the USA than the zionist state ever will be.

American perception of the numerous Crapistans in that region and all over the world is based on the behavior of the people who live in and run those nations. That behavior tends to be poor when compared to civilized nations.

What civilized nations ? I should assume you speak of logically following the compares (USA, Austria etc) you were making previously ? Im affraid I cannot agree, should I elaborate on the savagery in these nations in a more holistic sense ?

Im sorry I guess its just me not falling to quickly for accuracy in the perception of cattle, especially when this perception is perfectly explainable in sociologic terms, and completely unformed. But I guess that in order to observe that, you need to be informed yourself.

Wherever you have people of different races, ethnicities and religions you will always have conflicts based on those differences. Was there anti-Semitism in America then and even now? Absolutely. But the general public of America wasn't throwing Jews into the ovens our turning over Jews in our own country to the Nazis.

So USSR/Russia was an acknowledged point I may assume ?

Indeed your right Amerikans, did not throw Jews into ovens, but please do you not think it is a little bit ridiculous to conclude some sort of decent behaviour from Amerikan side, gassing Jews may have been disgusting it does not make any other crime against humanity suddenly dissapear.

Amerikan's role in the holocaust is culturally and historically explainable, and not to be attributed to any acts of Amerikan integrity. If they were gassing Blacks and Indians instead of Jews they might be more tempted, moreover let us not forget that there was an actual world war going on, I am sure there is no need for me to elaborate on all the political implications that came along, and determined the exact side and role of the USA.

I don't care about any of those guys. They are likely all neo-conservatives, which means they are just big-government leftists who like the military.

I am sure you personally don't care, my point related to their position in the USA-Israeli relations. You conveniently ignored it and argumented some about an ambassador, we know what that fallacy is called do we not ?

Originally posted by otheadp
how much in favor they are, is a matter of opinion. the paranoids and the haters will claim / believe that the Zionists are will try to take over teh entire middle east.

You are worrying me, who are all these haters (expanded with 'paranoids') you are talking about ? Do you think I can see them too ?

Perhaps you are not completely aware, but aside of the supposed 'Jewish' or even 'Israeli' element in the policy and administration, is a pseudo-Christian cult that is convinced Jesus Christ will return when the zionist state has expanded into biblically prophetic proportion.

The issue as far as expansion is concerned from Israeli perspective we have been/are discussing in that other thread, you certainly will receive a reply on. Entire rightwing-zionism policy is expansion and in specific revisionist as well as neo-religious policy is to expand in biblical portions.

People who are in the government are telling you this, and when others make notice what they are saying you call them haters and paranoid. I say you're a bit reactionary and emotional instead, try to be objective. Imagine you're a real Canuck :D

mhmmm.. keep talking

It is evident that your hate for Hamas, Arafat, Jews who choose their side or oppose you (remember Finkelstein) and so on is much greater than mine is for the most extreme zionists available.

the topic is not about the friendly relationship but about why AmeriCa supports Israel politically, which is part of that relationship, but is a different thing. US is friends with other countries but it doesn't get involved in their political problems.


You are correct, it is about a special relation, and that is exactly what is being exposed when you look at how political views regarding Israel are a factor in the consideration of US foreign policy. These political views are relevant because people who are practically Israeli are in important position.

This you will see with no other country.

1) neturei karta don't represent the whole Jewish community in the US.

And zionism does ? Did we not have a thread on this too, I know how you hate being repetitive .

2) whether the liaison is zionist or not is irrelevant. it has no impact on determining foreign policy

The point I wanted to make btw was the relevancy of the liaison to the Jewish community. If he were Neturei Karta it would not promote US interests, weither Neturei Karta would be representative or not.

Promoting US foreign interests is not as simplistic as the direct policy making, it is a quite complex proces in which things have to be accomplished on different fronts. A Neturei Karta would not zionize the Jewish community, the effect might be quite the opposite. This affect is not desirable for zionist policy. It would be a bad thing for zionism if Jews in USA would dissasociate with Israel I would say.

that's right.

Im happy you agree

and whatever they write is checked. if it's not approved, it's rewritten

Im not saying he has total controll, Im saying he has a very relevant position in determining the outcome. When he rewrites he can reformulate and conclude the exact same. The more important question is who approves of it ?

just because US and Israeli interests are similar sometimes does not mean one controls the other.

The interests are similar because the people are similar, Im sorry you can argue only sofar having dual citizenship makes you both Amerikan as Israeli, having family living in Israel makes you personally related to their fate and that of the country they claim their own.

You can start speaking of similar interests with different people when you speak of say 'Christian' evangelists who in reality want all jews to die but not untill they facilitated the second coming of their 'lord' . There's a nice similar interest wouldn't you say ?

The ones in question in the first place are not about similar interest, but about double interests.

Originally posted by otheadp
these damn jews control the world i tells ya!! :eek:

Morteza:
are you being sarcastic?
Hi otheadp:
Yes, I am being sarcastic here, but I will never allow myself to call "these damn jews". There are, I believe, people among Israelis who are opposing the Sharon governmet and what they do. They are decent jews. We should not offend them. Correct me if I am not right. Thanks.

Ha:letu:n Chetoreh Morteza :D

In the Arabic world I believe this issue is experienced in a fairly same manner as in Iran, let us forget about Israel for a moment. They are only 5 million people, with only a marginal ammount occupying the relevant positions internationally while there are over 14 million Jews worldwide.

How Jewish is Israel, then remains the question. If we take a look at it's history, it's culture, the religious views of the population, certain issues emmerge.

Let us also take a look at Jews that oppose the entire zionist state, not merely its contemporary government.

The entire idea of a Jewish conspiracy is benefitting only zionists because it identifies a Jewish entity and unifies a Jewish cause. The weakest part in the zionist system is diconnection from the Jews. They favor equasion of the 2, before they favor confusion, but they favor confusion before they favor disconnection.

Confusion is also evidently present in this thread, as I will point out in the following quotes, take a look at the first part of the post that questioned weither you were being sarcastic :

Oth : these damn jews control the world i tells ya!!

It was in response to :

Godless : Why does US support Israel?..
Because our politicians are on their payroll!! Period!!

As you can see the equasion between zionist politicians and Jews is benefiscious and easily made.

A confusion can be profitable as well, as we can see in the following quotes :

Pak : the fact that Israel knew about the WTC attacks beforehand (at least when you see that Israeli citizens working in the towers were warned-- only ONE Israeli was killed in the WTC)

Guth : I'm failry certain that its all bullshit that israelis were warned about the WTC etc.

Pak : However, it is a fact that there was only one Jewish there that tragic day.

Now if I were a zionist with rhetorical intentions, I could completely refute this final conclusion, of not a Jew dying at WTC.

Afterall reality is that there live 1 million Jews in NYC, of whom logically quite alot die when there is such an assault on the financial district, and show there was nothing particulary Jewish about that assault . In the confusion (we can see the innitial claim to be Israeli, and later Jewish) we can pull out a conclusion that equates Israel with Jewish, and thus conclude no zionist involvement whatsoever.

This however is incorrect, the innitial claim was correct, the conclusion is however not proved yet.

Guthrie

Before I agree of any lack of Israeli forknowledge, please explain me how it is possible only one Israeli citizen has died in the assaults ? There were 4.000 at the financial district, only 130 were reported dead, and only 3 confirmed according to Alon Pinkas and only 5 according to the Jerusalem Post :

Alona Avraham, Daniel Levin, Shai Levinhar, Hagai Shefi & Leon Lebor.

I wonder if anyone can point me out any other 'Hebrews' who carry Israeli citizenship in the lists of those who died at the WTC, and Pentagon would be interesting as well by the way.

In the meantime, we can take a look at that irellevant embassador Kurtzer mentioned earlier, he has nice things to say :

In Commemoration of September 11, 2001-U.S. Ambassador to Israel Daniel C. Kurtzer at the Israel Museum (http://www.usembassy-israel.org.il/publish/mission/amb/091102h.html)

Alona, Daniel, Shai & Hagai. They forgot Leon.

Who else ?

If we cannot be at Ground Zero tonight, or at the Pentagon, or at a small town in Pennsylvania to honor those who lost their lives, then it is fitting to conduct a service here in Israel. Israelis, too, lost their lives on September 11, and Israelis have lost their lives throughout the year and in past years to terrorism. Our hearts go out to the families of all the victims of terrorism.

Oh this is to beautifull, honestly :eek:

Spidergoat : They make some great falafels.

Miss Khan : yyechh!
Arabs (as in the NON-ISRAELI middle easterners ) make better ones. When was the last time you had an Israeli falafel vs. an Egyptian one?

Oth : when was the last time you had an Israeli falafel? at least we keep sanitary standards

:rolleyes:

Sanitary for Ghetto-standards indeed :D

Truth here is that is nothing but cultural hijack, zionizing something that is Arab. I have eaten falafels made by zionists they are good I wont complain, fact is :

THEY'RE NOT YOURS

:)

Let the snack battles begin! Next up on our agenda...

Who owns crescent shaped almond cookies?

This match will be decided in 2 falls out of 3.

Originally posted by otheadp
your "proof" is nothing but a few opinions.
if you take THAT as proof.... well then you're a nincompoop (i love that word)

And I assume you have something to disprove this? Remember that control is nothing but a state of mind. If Sharon says this blatantly anti-Semitic remark:

"don't worry about American pressure, we the Jewish people control America."

Then there is obviously a feeling within Israel of her infallibility when dealing with the US. That is proof; you cannot prove power except through opinion. There is proof that JINSA sways US congress, and the senate. How about the flak that Howard Dean got for stating that the US be an honest broker in the region? Oh my, an honest broker! Well the US must have a pro-Israel slant. Literally that was what was being said. That is obviously Zionist influence over US politics. Also ad homs are no substitute for a argument.

I am happy you explained, there were other thoughts that acurred in association with a 'nature' .

I didn't mean it was genetic, if that's what you were thinking.

Let me ask you this though, why do you feel the need to insert all these rhetorical elements in your argumentation ? Do you believe it somehow results in avoiding a logical compare of X to Y in the treatment of it's minorities and woman ?

I'm making the comparison now. Things like honor killings and government representatives forcing girls back into burning buildings because they forgot to put on their head scarf when fleeing for their lives (http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/mutawsc.htm) sicken normal people.

Perhaps you can also explain me how allofasudden Palestinians of yours started existing ? As far as I am aware you and your 'source' do not acknowledge this entity, does convenience bend the rule ? It is no argument, I just ask out of curiosity.

Nobody is denying the existance of Arabic people who call themselves Palestinians. The disagreement is over whether or not these people are a distinct ethnic/racial group.

You can do better than that, Ghassan.

*By 'proving' non-generality in occurance in Amerika and Austria in a comparative assumption of opposition with X, you imply X to have 'general' occurance of this type of act. This would be a ridiculous assertion, are you making it ? If so then please compare it to the regular incest in certain Amerikan communities, classes or regions.

I'm not comparing rates of incest. I'm comparing the mother's reaction to that incest and the light punishment she will likely receive. A girl was raped and she was the one who was executed.

I don't know what the incest rates are, but I know one thing for sure: it's not acceptable practice in Western nations to murder incest victims for the sake of family honor.

*This Palestinian 'entity' to be compared is some few million concentrated people (and tribal to be more specific) while the United States of north America have 100 times as many people that occupy a somewhat larger piece of land. Please take 280 million Arabs if you wish to conclude any 'nature' as defined by treatment of minorities and woman, and not the worst example that you could find. Many acts are included in the formula that concludes this 'nature' ,not merely one act you happen to point out conveniently.

A few million people is enough for a valid sample.

As for your examples of teen prostitutes, drug addicts, weirdos who intentionally infect themselves with AIDS, child molesters, etc...

There are sickos in every society. The nature of a society is not determined by whether or not there are sickos (since they are everywhere), but how the rest of society in general reacts to these sickos. Gays who intentionally infect themselves with AIDS seem to be despised even by many other gays. People who are caught molesting children and convicted go to jail, where even the other inmates often maim or kill them for what they have done. There are people who murder their husbands and wives and run over old ladies who are crossing the street. People like this are generally considered to be pieces of shit by a great majority of Americans. Someone who murders a rape victim to restore family honor would also be considered a piece of shit, rather than the "victim" that you seem to think she is. And she sure as hell wouldn't be looking at a light punishment.

But ofcourse all of it is nothing compared to a mother that just found out her 2 psycho sons have raped her girl and now shes gonna have a frankenstein child that to her mind is the epitome of shame, and out of despair murders her daughter.

This poor girl was raped and wound up pregnant and was then murdered by her mother, and here you are trying to make the murderous mother out to be the victim.

The second part of your argument relies on treatment of minority's, I am sure there ar eplenty examples for you to come up with I am curious to know why you have just let it be.

Here is a taste of how Christians are treated by some of their "peaceful" Muslim brethren: Easter Worship Barred for Thousands of Christians (http://www.freedomhouse.org/religion/news/bn2000/bn-2000-04-19.htm) (the last two events listed aren't Muslim-related)

Here is another on the Middle East: The Present State of Religious Freedom - Middle East (http://www.religiousfreedom.com/Conference/Dc/shea.htm)

Here is another; this time from Indonesia (the second story on the page): Massive Assault Launched Against Christian Villages In Indonesia (http://www.bbcchurch.supanet.com/page68.html)

You might have already guessed, but I disagree with this part just as well. Again if we take Amerika, we would see that the treatment of minorities (Arabs are popular lately) are not that wonderfull, and certainly not any better than in the contemporary compare to todays Arab countries.

Mosques generally aren't bulldozed like Christian churches are in Egypt and Muslims aren't targeted for genocide or slavery in America like non-Muslims are in Sudan, for example. Islamic worship isn't banned in America the way Christian worship is banned in Saudi Arabia.

America is far from perfect and most Islamic nations seem to be far from acceptable.

In addition, with the knowledge that the Americas were 100% native some 500 years ago, after millenia there still are minority's practicing their original culture,religion and speaking their original tongue, while in the America's .... well you now have 'mestizo's' ,I say that's at the very least interesting :bugeye:

I never claimed America had a spotless record. We aren't perfect now, but we are better today than the average Islamic nation.

It has a history this mistreatment, again I point to the divisive policy imposed upon the middle east this last century. More importantly, do you believe that with dropping slavery (as in the word) and acting like native's are ok now means that mistreatment does not accur ?

Where have I ever claimed that there was no bigotry in America? As I said before; wherever you have people of different races/ethnicities/religions/etc. you will have bigotry and hatred based on those differences. People from every racial and religious group get shafted from time to time, I'd imagine. But hey, I know of no Western country where slavery is still openly practiced. Can you say the same for Muslim countries?

In addition, I also mentioned nuclear events, which was not too long ago and lead to the argument of general warfare, does that not occur anymore either ? 3 years in the new millenium and already they couldn't controll them selves from ravashing 2 nations.

So we are now pretending that only America goes to war?

I am happy you present yourself so wonderfully reflecting the minds of your society. The question remains, why does your government, which ought to represent y'all, completely disagree with your idea of Saudi . Either they don't care what you think or you don't coprehend how things work, perhaps both ?

I know how things work. They just don't care what I think.

It is merely a miscommunication that I am pointing out, between motivations of government policy in regard to the zionist state (and others in the middle east such as Saudi) and the perception of these motives in regard to any motivatiosn the public may have. Afterall weither public perceives Saudi as an ally or not, they are more loyal to the USA than the zionist state ever will be.

I don't see the Saudis as particularly loyal.

What civilized nations ? I should assume you speak of logically following the compares (USA, Austria etc) you were making previously ? Im affraid I cannot agree, should I elaborate on the savagery in these nations in a more holistic sense ?

Go ahead.

So USSR/Russia was an acknowledged point I may assume ?

Which point?

Indeed your right Amerikans, did not throw Jews into ovens, but please do you not think it is a little bit ridiculous to conclude some sort of decent behaviour from Amerikan side, gassing Jews may have been disgusting it does not make any other crime against humanity suddenly dissapear.

Where did I ever claim that Americans were perfect?

Amerikan's role in the holocaust is culturally and historically explainable, and not to be attributed to any acts of Amerikan integrity. If they were gassing Blacks and Indians instead of Jews they might be more tempted, moreover let us not forget that there was an actual world war going on, I am sure there is no need for me to elaborate on all the political implications that came along, and determined the exact side and role of the USA.

Are you trying to excuse the Holocaust as an acceptable and typical wartime occurance?

I am sure you personally don't care, my point related to their position in the USA-Israeli relations. You conveniently ignored it and argumented some about an ambassador, we know what that fallacy is called do we not ?

Have I ever denied that Zionists are disproportionately represented in American foreign policy? Zionism seems to be part of both the neo-conservative and liberal/leftist platforms.

What is it you are looking for?

wow so many anti semites in one forum

guys have u ever heard of friendly fire like the U.S bombing Canadians in Agahnistan by mistake so thats what happen when Israel fired a torpedo or a missille at the USS ship it was a mistake i am sorry for those sailors that died but in every war a country is afraid for its survival so the Israelis thought it was probably an arab terrorist ship that was trying to attack Israeli forces.iam 100% sure that Israel had no intension to bomb an american ship.u guys make big deals of Israeli mistakes but u dont make big deals when a yemen terrorist bombs a U.S ship on purposely no u dont condemn that thats the terrorists they are fighting with resistance for "freedom" they dont even know the word "freedom" means. Look at the past history of arabs states all police,totalitarian,and brutal states and thats what they want no freedom, thats one of the reasons they hate amerca and Israel because these contries prosper and have freedom.(but there is more reasons why they hate the U.S and Israel) ;)

http://torpedos.8m.com/viewpoint.html here is the link thta it was a friendly fire a mistake that Israel did it and admit it and never done a mistake like that any more since that bombing of the ship

i have to agree with you. they are the smelliest people i ever known. i think they have no water in there contry and take no shower:p :D



Once again the racism on this forum rears its head.

Friendly fire my ASS!!!!!

Liberty was deliberate, plain and simple. From a pilot who was firing on Liberty:

http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_international&Number=1198445&page=&view=&sb=&o=&vc=1&t=-1#Post1198445

Godless.

where did u get this bs information frome a person that does not support Israel and would write anything to make Isrealis look like killers infront of the american peolple like I said it was a freindly fire mistake at the time Israel was paranoid because it had enemies surronding it the Israeli pilots try to contact personnel on the ship no one answered so they thought something suspicios is going on so they fired.ur telling me that Israel that gets aid from the U.S the only loyal friend from the ME would fire at ship because they didnt want the U.S to know that they are attacking Syria that purly BS.Did Israel do any attacks on the U.S after that "no".Egypt gets aid palestinians get aid and we buy arab oil and what do we get in return sept 11 and other teerist attacks on American embassies,and USS ship in yemen and u dont make big deals on that so u must be anti Israel just like the forum u sent me is anti Israel read my link thats the truth.

http://torpedos.8m.com/viewpoint.html

i have a better question.

why does USA take the side of USA in conflicts ? what if we're wrong, shouldn't we take the other side ? don't tell me we're never wrong.

my point is - nobody cares who's right. we identify with Israel more than with Arabs, thats all.

Oh!! Please, the bull shiet is coming from the jewished owned news media you look into, how about trying some independent news sources for a change?. Where you there on the ship as it was getting attacked? I wasn't either however the accountability of people that were there have to be accounted for, not the misquided news bullshiet you so dearly follow!!.

http://world.mediamonitors.net/content/view/full/4731/

By all means understand I have nothing against the Jews, or better yet the Israelis, because there are many Jews who are against what Israel is doing and has been doing for quite a long time now. Israel is a trator, and it will blow us sky high, and the politicians will lie again and again, just because the funding that they get from Jewish interests here in the states. Israel manipulates the US to fight its wars, and that is evident, unless your blind and stupified by the corporate news media, which is mostly owned by Jewish community!!. Yea go on believing the crap, big time bite the bullet in the end.

http://www.americanfreepress.net/01_21_04/Admiral_Says/admiral_says.html

Know this just as much bull shiet you can find to speak otherwise, I can do as well, but who's view is correct? The corporate news sources, or the independent media. I tend to go with the independent media because they who die, by bringing the truth, is a more reliable source, than the news source who trys to sell me soap.

Hey, any country who would dare attack the US as the Israelis did, are going to make excuses, that it was an accident, as if they did not recognise the huge US flag flying high on the ship, as if they did not jam the radio communications, the battle still rages on, the cover up was done, the damage was done, however the truth will set them all free.

http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,8381251%255E1702,00.html

However I just don't buy it, Israel daily is showing its menace, daily it shows it's resolve, Israel today can be compared to Nazi Germany, against the Jews themselves, however the tables have turned, who looks more like a tyrant is the country building the wall, Palestines are been and have been killed on a daily basis, from children to the elderly, from demolishing their buinesses and their homes, and the big problem is, that the US finances all this!. And the dumb ass Americans still argue (why do they hate us?).

http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/

Godless.

IMHO this seems to be 'rather the devil you know, than the devil you dont" - Arabs are too 'unkown' to the US to get any US backing because their culture or motive is unkown or mistrusted, Israel on the other hand is God's nation, right out of the Bible - there is no choice to be made for America , a nation that "trusts in God" & Israel knows this.

IMHO this seems to be 'rather the devil you know, than the devil you dont" - Arabs are too 'unkown' to the US to get any US backing because their culture or motive is unkown or mistrusted, Israel on the other hand is God's nation, right out of the Bible - there is no choice to be made for America , a nation that "trusts in God" & Israel knows this.


you are a smart one... I give you that. :cool:

if you go through all the posters in this link (http://www.israelcelebration.com/posters.htm), you'll understand why America supports Israel.
among other things, one of the incredible things Israel did for America was to give it acces to a MiG-21 airplane (the best airplane in the world, at that time) in the 1970's which it smuggled out of an Iraqi airbase during the cold war.
Israel is also the friendliest nation towards America.

what have the Arabs done since their tribes received countries? islamic terrorism, an oil embargo, siding with the Soviets during the cold war, no democracy, human rights violations, no markets, no growth, assistance money goes right under the skirt of the sheikhs .... come on.. what is there to think about?
oh yeah. they invented the "zero", and revolutionized math. supposedly.
so? that was when... half a millenia ago, or more.

oh yea... another thing.. Jews control America. I mean, Sharon himself said so, so it must be true! there's a Jewish "agent" everywhere you go. Americans simply have no chance
===============
edit:

if you're too lazy to go to that link, i'll put some excerpts:

Advanced Acne Treatment Developed in Israel
Computer Anti-Virus Developed in Israel
Cell Phone Developed in Israel
Instant Messenger Developed in Israel
Centrino Technology Developed in Israel
Windows NT Developed in Israel

Digital Medication System Saves Lives
Improved Breast Cancer Screening
Israeli Heart Pump Saves Lives

Most Museums per Capita
Power Rangers Produced by Israeli
Most Scientists per Capita
Record Output of New Books
Only Country with Gain in Trees
Israeli Violinist Itzhak Perlman

and many more!

* Please explain how any 'barbarism' would exceed negro-slavery, native American holocaust, using nuclear weapons and so on, for an Amerikan to have a logical recognition of 'barbarism' in anything accuring in 'certain' Islamic nations ?

Negro-slavery: The US was not the only participant in this horrid matter. But since we are talking about slavery would you care to list the countries that have participated in this?? For starters we have the U.S., Britian, the Scandinavian countries (Vikings), Italy (Romans), Greece (the greeks), France+Germany (goths, huns, etc..), the Russians, numerous African countries, the Aztecs, Incas, Middle Eastern countries......so basicly, virtually every country on this Planet has had slavery at some time. So your point is CRAP.

Native American Holocaust: A sad part of American History. Also equally sad is the Jewish Holocaust, the destruction of Native peoples by the Catholic church thoughout Central and Southern America, the Rwandian Holocaust, the buliding of the Great wall of China, the various biblical holocausts, Ghengis Khans almost successful attempt to wipe out Islam, etc..etc.. once again, if you look in History virtually every culture has contributed to a holocaust. Your point again is CRAP.

Using Nuclear Weapons: So using 2 nuclear weapons to end a World War that killed 50 MILLION people is immoral? You are obviously oblivious to the fact that an invasion would have killed more civilians and im sure that you know nothing about the attempted Coup by the Japanese Military to overthrow Hirohito and thus continue the war. Should we talk about the rape of Nanking? The Japanese Biological warfare attacks that killed over a million Chinese?? Or should I stick that in the Holocaust column? The forced labor and Slavery imlemented by the Japanese military? (oh we are back on Slavery again...). Once again, your point is CRAP.

So we have crap+crap+crap= A whole lotta CRAP which best defines your posts.

I'm not going to comment on the offensive, ignorant statements made in this thread so far, but as a gung-ho pro-Israeli, i emplore everyone to write their congressman and scream as much as they can to stop US aid to Israel. Israelis have been getting sick for a while over how much power the aid gives the Yanks, and it is barely 2% of their national income anyway. So please, stop giving them money, that would solve many of our problems. :D

flintlock, welcome :D

in addition, i think US should stop sponsoring Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the rest of them too.. since only 1/6 (that's less than 17%) of all US military aid to the middle east reaches Israel, US should stop supplying the other 87+% to Israel's enemies and strategical threats disguising themselves as allies

I don't want to be in this thread, but just one thing:

think US should stop sponsoring Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the rest of them too

The only state the US sponsers in the ME with aid is Egypt. I know S.A buys all her arms.

Hello Flint, and the rest of the gang.

My 2 cents input, is that the US will never quit qiving money to all these countries, specially Israel, for one The Israelis have a very strong lobying group here in the states, and gives plenty of money to these "easily bought american politicians" The Saudi's sell us the oil, and we protect the Saudi's., Even though they "S.A." refused to let the US attack from it's borders, they are still considered our allies, Though it seems and looks like Irag is falling apart, lately, hence Brush&Co, are really looking like shiet, and just might not win the re-election, just like daddy!!. So while Irag goes up in flames and more troops die, we are really closer to a resolve, Bush&co, out of office!. Hey!! at least that's a start. :)

Bush&co, out of office!. Hey!! at least that's a start. :)
Not much of a start. His replacement Kerry is Jewish and will probably continue sending billions of dollars to the warmongers in Israel, not that Dudya didn't do everything they told him to do.

I think being Jewish and not Pro- Israelian government policies is not incompatible, I dont know about Kerry's personal views about the ME conflict though.

Well I tell ya what! not every Jew likes what Sharon is doing, and not every Jew supports Israel's political philosophy. However the sad news is that Kerry is the most likely opponent to win the white house, I agree with that part.
:rolleyes:

Godless.

what can you do...
The Jews win either way

oh, the horror...

So why does America support Israel???

Becaauuuuuuuuse Israel has v. affluent friends in America.

are they 'friends' or 'subjects'?