The other day a friend of mine made a very bland statement that I had no other recourse than to deny it without thought. He stated that there were no true atheist existed. His argument was that when any person had a relative in ailing condition that this person would subconsciously pray to god. Still I had to disagree.

What struck me was the assumption that people are to weak to handle the pressure of such an event. They assume that those cases one must snap back to original programming of religious thought. Fortunately I had a refernce point or two where I ahd indeed not requested help from any manifestation of supreme being.

People like he are inherently dependent upon this impowering thought. So I beg the question, what would drive a logical human being to drop to their knees and beg from a being who may or may not exist? What would remove the dignity and responsibility from a person so that they would stoop to that simple humble position? Why do certain people need the belief of a divine being? Could it be that some of us have different reactions to fear?

Teg,

***...what would drive a logical human being to drop to their knees and beg from a being who may or may not exist?***

What is it that gives you the impression that praying equates to begging ?

There are many types of prayers. Can you give an example of what you think a prayer is?

Here's something to ponder:

"Prayer that craves a particular commodity, anything less than all good, is vicious. Prayer is the contemplation of the facts of life from the highest point of view. It is the soliloquy of a beholding and jubilant soul. But prayer as a means to effect a private end is meanness and theft. It supposes dualism and not unity in nature and consciousness. As soon as the man is at one with God, he will not beg. He will see in prayer all action."

Ralph Waldo Emerson, from Self-Reliance

I never pray, I only praise.
I beleive in divinity only not like christians.
I beleive in supreme life force and if thre are Gods they are just a part of nature as we all are, so if I ever talk to them then equally. Not on my knees praying for smth. I stand up and do everything to get it. I am a logical, scientific thinking human being and won't let religious beleifs stop my evolution:) .

I think tht certain people pray because they are too afraid of doing smth for themselves, are too afraid of consequences.
They need smone to take care of them, they need some higher being to guard them at a crutial moment. Here's a picture.
A spacecraft of a religious alien sect is flying towards earth. A small metior hits the craft and it starts to loose it's oxigen reserves. Aliens moan and gather around and instead of fixing the hole they pray for smone to do it for them. Eventualy they all die because of lack of oxigen.
Fear of serious actions tht may change smthing.

Yes, fear might be the answer. Fear and uncertanty. Fear from life and the problems it contains.

By Emmerson's definition, every person that I have known to pray is viscious. I don't think many besides Emmerson himself would be seen as otherwise in his eyes. It is a typical ego coaxing statement. He wishes to believe himself superior and then invents a reason. How many among you pray for all good and not for some more selfish reason? The funny part of that question is that probably only the unscrupulous will answer in the positive.

I fear most christians because of their lack responsibility for themselves. I fear them because they only wish to destroy what they don't understand. I must view Avatar as a good middle ground.

I keep hearing about the power of prayer and how professional prayers may save lives. I should hope that all may see through this as blatant superstition.

Teg,

Have you ever found yourself consciously hoping for something?

“I hope I score tonight.”

“I hope I get that job.”

“I hope I get that raise.”

“I hope I get that house.”

In this sense, we all pray. Hoping is a form of prayer. The atheist doesn’t pray to God* but consciously hopes that things will be alright and that in the end whatever he or she sees as good will prevail.

Consciously hoping for things is a form of prayer. But, what type of prayer is it when we hope or pray for our own personal gain?

This type of hope or prayer is shallow and, to a certain extent, dishonest in the larger scheme of things. This sort of prayer, as Emerson puts it “as a means to effect a private end is meanness and theft.“

What if you get that job that you hoped for at the expense of someone else who needs it more than you? Someone who, without that job, will go hungry?

Some of us don’t know how to hope or pray honestly and selflessly. Instead, we hope or pray for lovers, or jobs, or raises, or cars, or houses. Hoping or praying for such things does not seek “unity in nature and consciousness.” This type of hope, this type of prayer, can be viewed as shallow, dishonest and selfish when we consider the hungry, the homeless, the fearful, the abused, the ill. We get so wrapped up in what we want personally, we forget to look around us at a world in suffering. We forget the benefit of honest prayer.

It's tempting to sit around and wait for the things that we hoped or prayed for to happen. Then, when they just don't fall into our laps, we can become bitter and angry. The problem is, we've only hoped. We’ve only prayed. We have not acted right. We've prayed dishonestly. Honest prayer comes with right action. Praying without right action is dishonest.

Have you ever heard someone say that they prayed but did not get an answer? Maybe it was because they prayed one of these selfish prayers that deserve to go unanswered. Some of us don’t know how to pray honestly and instead, as you alluded to, we beg for lovers, jobs, cars, homes, etc. rather than seeking right action.

There have been a number of studies repeated over recent years which demonstrate the power of prayers of intercession. One study I remember reading about demonstrated a marked improvement in the outcome for groups of coronary care patients who were prayed for (without their knowledge) vs. groups of coronary care patients who were not prayed for. The conclusion was that intercessory prayer is a valid adjunct in the treatment of coronary care patients.

So, one form of praying honestly, is to look outside of ourselves. To be effective, prayer is to be delivered altruistically and focused only on what will bring glory to God* in the world around us.

Honest prayer seeks to improve the community at large. Honest prayer opens our eyes to the real suffering that takes place around us every single day. Honest prayer moves us to take right actions.

Can we pray honestly? Sure, but first we need to understand that our selfish prayers are just hopes, just dreams, just wishes. Selfless hope, coupled with faith and right action is honest prayer. It is beneficial to the world around us as evidenced by the benefits derived from intercessory prayer.

When we are praying honestly, we are seeking what is best for the community as a whole. We do not seek God's* kingdom and God's* righteousness while we are praying selfishly for this or that to happen personally to us or for us. For those who pray honestly, our first priority is God's* kingdom, not our own. Instead of just hoping or begging God* for this or that to happen, honest prayers are humble requests, followed by "your will be done, not mine", and the willingness to take right action. When our prayers turn from being selfish to being honest, we can start to see prayer in all action. When we are praying for the greater well-being of the world around us, we cannot help but be prompted into action. If you stop long enough to notice the suffering around you, how can you not be moved to action? Prayer can never be separated from acting. Without action, prayer is dishonest.

When I examine my prayer life, I must see that my prayers are honest and that they seek only things that are all good, not just for me, but for everyone. Otherwise, it is just selfish hope which has no real benefit.

orginally posted by blonde_cupid -

There have been a number of studies repeated over recent years which demonstrate the power of prayers of intercession. One study I remember reading about demonstrated a marked improvement in the outcome for groups of coronary care patients who were prayed for (without their knowledge) vs. groups of coronary care patients who were not prayed for. The conclusion was that intercessory prayer is a valid adjunct in the treatment of coronary care patients. --------

Yes it worked, but what caused that?
Maybe smone should consider psihycal powers as well.
You know we are only at the begining of our evolution[some dinosaurs ~230 milj years, we ~4 milj years] Don't you think that our brain is capable of smth greater than just praying to some higher being. Sure it gives results, but what if we developed our capabilities. Telekinesis, distance vision are just some cases that some of our kind have developed higher than "normal".
Did you know that there was an experiment on the theory of possibility. One scientist[unfortunately forgot who, but maybe smone other knows] heard that gamers [people playing dice] told thay could make the dice roll to sixes. And he witnessed [dice were examined to be ordinary] that in the beggining of the experiment there were much more "lucky" throws , but later it was only 50/50. he presumed that our brain tired of the concentration. And many of those gamers were atheists.
This is not so good example because was taken in the beggining of 20th century, but you see my point.

I do not deny the power of the prayer, I only say tht we can do better than that.
Bye!

Anytime you have given meditation to the plight of someone else or carried a burden for someones pain...anytime you have reached out to take the hand of a grief stricken person wishing to be able to bring them comfort thru your spiirit..You have in fact prayed.
The Bible makes reference to us not always knowing what to pray and at such times the spirit prays for us. Prayer is a lot more than holding a conversation with some outside being. It is our spiritual being reaching out to make change, relieve or interceed in the spiritual realm.

Spirits! What a crock! On what evidence do you advance this theory? Because I am comforting a person on an emotional level, does not indicate prayer. You can broaden the definition, but I won't buy it and I think it might offend some in your party to suggest that athiests such as I are capable of prayer. Then we the backward would be just as good as you. (Although I will let you know that any general idea of what is good is completely arbitrary. By your particular definition I would fit the bill in every way but for the fact that I am not a follower of any religion)

Taken,

***Anytime you have given meditation to the plight of someone else or carried a burden for someones pain...anytime you have reached out to take the hand of a grief stricken person wishing to be able to bring them comfort thru your spiirit..You have in fact prayed.***

Very good point. Thanks.

Teg,

When you reach out to take the hand of a grief stricken person wishing to be able to bring them comfort, what goes through your mind, on an emotional level?

When you reach out to take the hand of a grief stricken person wishing to be able to bring them comfort, what goes through your mind, on an emotional level?

Preservation an emotion on the basic survival level. That is the base for most emotions. Theologians are always trying to define a divine meaning for processes that are strictly chemical reactions. The machine of man knows only one purpose: survival.

Teg,


***quote:
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When you reach out to take the hand of a grief stricken person wishing to be able to bring them comfort, what goes through your mind, on an emotional level?
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Preservation an emotion on the basic survival level. That is the base for most emotions.***

I'm sorry but I don't understand this response.

I'm wondering what thoughts go through your mind at times like these?

Being Spiritual does not mean that you hold to any specific doctrine about who or what or how the existance of a god is.
You can be well aware that you are more than biological function in your life with out religion. Have you never felt a connection to another that was beyond familiarity? Felt physical pain in the abscence of any? A knot in your stomach, an ache in your heart?
If we are simply a chemical reaction why do we posses such uneeded and impractical emotions and longings for others based on love and compassion with no selfishness or gain to ourselves?
An instinct to react to a dieing man by trying to save them can be dismissed as a function of survival of the species, just as the adreniline rush that sustains us during terror does...but compassion and mercy and empathy can not be dismissed as survival instincts. Nor can preminitions or telepathic experiences. We are in fact somehow deeply connected to one another, the opinions on the hows and whys may differ greatly but the connection is hard to deny on a personal level. We don't need religion or a church to feel and experience that.

Set goal -> pray -> action -> goal reached.
Set goal -> action -> goal reached.

Looks like pray is kind of extra and unnecessary.

Pray on the other hand, is more like releasing part or all responsibility to something else.

"Who will win the battle Tie Fighter Advanced or Delta Flyer"

Pffft! DF would wipe the floor with the Tie :p

It all depends on your definition of 'praying'. Hoping and praying are not necessarily the same thing, but you are making it seem like it is.

There is a BIG difference between hopeing for the financing to go thru on a new car and carrying a spirtual burden or desire. I guess there does seem to be a lack of good clear terminology to accuratly describe what I am speaking of.

When actions run out or there are none available then your spirit can move to interceade. If your child is dying of an incurable illness and you have gone to the best specialists and all proceadures have been tried....then "action" on a physicall level is exhausted. When someone has suffered a loss and you can't bring them back and your words may comfort but can not bring relief to their pain...once again action on the physicall level is exhausted. The desire or deep heartfelt desire for the good of another human is not a physical action. The longing to bring relief or comfort is not a physicall feeling. I am speaking of emotional and spiritual interaction between humans.

As for survival or self-preservation...how does it explain a love so deep that a man would lay down his life for another person that is not his offspring?

When we are at the end of our rope, when all possibilitys have been expended, when we are emotionaly and mentaly exhausted, then something deep with in us takes hold, something in our heart of hearts, at our very core stirs...that is very much prayer to me.

If your child is dying and there really is nothing you can do about it you would obviously be hoping/praying for him/her to get better. The question is, has "Please let him/her get through this God" become just another way to hope for things, or is the person actually saying it with the intent of having God hear her and curing her child?

Laying on of hands works quite well.

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
(Mark 16:17,18, KJV).

So is that another example of falsehood in the Bible tony? Because I see many believers in our local churches and none of them can "heal with their hands".