They have the nation and the world by the balls and think they rule by divine right. If Clinton had pulled even .0000000001% of what Bush has done, not only would he not be president, he would most likely not be alive. Likewise, if Bush had gotten a blowjob and lied about it, he would have just recieved praise for his manliness. They control every aspect of this country and still want more power and claim that they are above reproach because God is a Republican and is on their side. Is there no limit to their arrogance? Is there ANYTHING they can do and not get away with? Why, despite their moral bankrupcy, utter ruthlessness and disregard for human life, and the pure hatred and evil that oozes out of their pores, does the system have to be rigged in favor of them ALL THE TIME?

..., and the pure hatred and evil that oozes out of their pores, ...

Geez, from reading your posts, that same "pure hatred and evil" seems to be oozing out of your own pores, too. Should we call your attitude hypocritical?

Baron Max

Maybe the electorate is just numb, and stupid, and generally disinclined to think in depth about political issues. So why do you (hypothetical you) still support democracy?

FOOLS

Only 3 posts, and already this thread's pretty far gone.

Mikasa, I felt pretty much the same way a few years ago.
As time goes on, I recognize that Rep vs. Dem is just Ford
vs. Chevy. Either way, you get a car that breaks down a
lot. Just remember not to tie yourself up in knots about
something that's beyond your personal control and
responsibility. Do what you can, and let the rest go.

And Baron, personal attacks are not helpful. Why do you
have to start out that way? Please note that I am not
attacking you, as I believe you are capable of contributing
meaningfully to this discussion and I hope that you will.
I just don't see how random name-calling like that is
going to help.

android, democracy is inefficient, innacurate, idiotic
and inept. It's also the best political system ever created,
so I'll stand by it completely.

reps control the congress and white house
there is no oversight as congress refuses to investigate its own party

during the dem years (97 -02), there were 1000 odd subpoenas
for this admin, there have been three. 2 for waste disposal and one for katrina

americans would'nt recognize facism if it were rammed down their throats
ja, we are that stupid

Nein, the Busheviks are going down in flames. They are (thankfully) incompetent fascists, and it's catching up to them fast. By the time Dubya is back on the street he will be stinkier than Tricky Dick. Then we can get to work repairing the damage (for at least a generation).

Exactly.

Why do republicans get away with everything?

Because gays exist, and people are cowardly idiots and Republicans are loud and pretend to protect us.

I keep hearing about the super-evil Republicans and their world-domination machinations, but to be honest, I don't really see the basis for those claims. I think that is the primary problem with the Republican opposition's tactics; they claim all of these conspiratorial schemes, but no one ever sees the schemes reach fruition. It seems to me that people tend to take a small sound byte or a sentence in a report and blow it out of proportion.

Republicans corrupt? Of course.
Republicans evil super-geniuses bent on taking over the world? Probably not.

On a side note, all this talk about Democrats and Republicans I assume refers to the politicians, not to the members of either party right? Because I know a lot of really great people who identify themselves as Republicans (and Democrats, for that matter) and they are most definitely not morally bankrupt or uncaring of human life.

-C.

Why, despite their moral bankrupcy, utter ruthlessness and disregard for human life, and the pure hatred and evil that oozes out of their pores, does the system have to be rigged in favor of them ALL THE TIME?

This is indicative of why:

It seems to me that people tend to take a small sound byte or a sentence in a report and blow it out of proportion.

Some 40% of Americans think the Republicans aren't all that bad even as they are converting the country to a ruthless dictatorship. Before an election they spend ill-gotten gains to sway swing voters, assuring victory. I think the best solution is to shun Republican voters whenever possible. They need to know that you hold them personally responsible for their ignorance.

Only 3 posts, and already this thread's pretty far gone.

Mikasa, I felt pretty much the same way a few years ago.
As time goes on, I recognize that Rep vs. Dem is just Ford
vs. Chevy. Either way, you get a car that breaks down a
lot. Just remember not to tie yourself up in knots about
something that's beyond your personal control and
responsibility. Do what you can, and let the rest go.

And Baron, personal attacks are not helpful. Why do you
have to start out that way? Please note that I am not
attacking you, as I believe you are capable of contributing
meaningfully to this discussion and I hope that you will.
I just don't see how random name-calling like that is
going to help.

android, democracy is inefficient, innacurate, idiotic
and inept. It's also the best political system ever created,
so I'll stand by it completely.

Nuff said.

This is indicative of why:

It seems to me that people tend to take a small sound byte or a sentence in a report and blow it out of proportion.

Some 40% of Americans think the Republicans aren't all that bad even as they are converting the country to a ruthless dictatorship. Before an election they spend ill-gotten gains to sway swing voters, assuring victory. I think the best solution is to shun Republican voters whenever possible. They need to know that you hold them personally responsible for their ignorance.

What I meant was that there is a lot of doom and gloom preaching going on about how America is quickly becoming a dictatorship, but I see none of that happening (I am welcome to evidence otherwise, however!).

Incidentally, Republicans lose nearly as many elections as they win, so should we assume that the other parties are also using "ill-gotten gains to sway swing voters" when they win? Just asking, not trying to incite argument.

Cheers,

-C.

They have the nation and the world by the balls and think they rule by divine right. If Clinton had pulled even .0000000001% of what Bush has done, not only would he not be president, he would most likely not be alive. Likewise, if Bush had gotten a blowjob and lied about it, he would have just recieved praise for his manliness. They control every aspect of this country and still want more power and claim that they are above reproach because God is a Republican and is on their side. Is there no limit to their arrogance? Is there ANYTHING they can do and not get away with? Why, despite their moral bankrupcy, utter ruthlessness and disregard for human life, and the pure hatred and evil that oozes out of their pores, does the system have to be rigged in favor of them ALL THE TIME?

They are willing to murder those that get in their way. It is that simple.

I keep hearing about the super-evil Republicans and their world-domination machinations, but to be honest, I don't really see the basis for those claims.

You might have better luck if you open your eyes.


Republicans corrupt? Of course.
Republicans evil super-geniuses bent on taking over the world? Probably not.

You are right about that. The Israelis are using the Republicans. The Republicans are stupid. Intelligent Design? Come on. Those guys are the special ed kids at school.

The Isrealis are using the Republicans to hide behind. They waved the oil riches of Iraq under Bush and Cheney's nose as a reward for invading Iraq and they went for it. What do they care? Bush and Cheny have set up both of their families to be Dynasties for the next 60 years with the oil contracts from Iraq. They destroyed the USA economy and world image to do it? So what? What do they care? They have billions of dollars. They will be fine whatever happens to the USA.

You might have better luck if you open your eyes.

No, see, that's what I mean. I look everywhere to find this suppression of our freedoms and I find nothing. Can you give me an example of someone being suppressed without cause?


The Isrealis are using the Republicans to hide behind. They waved the oil riches of Iraq under Bush and Cheney's nose as a reward for invading Iraq and they went for it. What do they care? Bush and Cheny have set up both of their families to be Dynasties for the next 60 years with the oil contracts from Iraq. They destroyed the USA economy and world image to do it? So what? What do they care? They have billions of dollars. They will be fine whatever happens to the USA.

This is another of the talking points I hear often that I disagree with. Long before Bush was ever president and Cheney was vice-president, they were filthy rich. It didn't take the long and stressful campaigning and subsequent 5 years for them to accomplish dynastic goals. Personally, I think if people are going to take the greed angle, they should take it from the perspective of Bush/Cheney already being rich, wanted more; and what's more than wealth? Power.

But I digress, the question I originally intended was: Is there evidence that we are more suppressed and/or oppressed now than before Bush took office?

Cheers,

-C.

I look everywhere to find this suppression of our freedoms and I find nothing. Can you give me an example of someone being suppressed without cause?

Nobody who hasn't seen overwhelming evidence of it by now will probably never see it. Mentioning anything here would be a waste of time.

Incidentally, Republicans lose nearly as many elections as they win, so should we assume that the other parties are also using "ill-gotten gains to sway swing voters" when they win? Just asking, not trying to incite argument.

Republicans are unlikely to lose control of Congress or the White House in the foreseeable future. They have too much money now, and Americans are too ignorant and gullible on average.

Nobody who hasn't seen overwhelming evidence of it by now will probably never see it. Mentioning anything here would be a waste of time.

Hmm, maybe I have a different idea of suppression than others, then? For example, is it suppression when Bush orders phone taps on international calls? Or when he orders the invasion of Iraq?

Because to me, suppression is more along the lines of denying citizens their right to vote, right to bear arms, etc., which I have not heard Bush attempting to do. Of course, just because I have not heard it doesn't make it so; as such, I was hoping for some examples.

Cheers,

-C.

The Republicans are stupid. Intelligent Design? Come on.

I disagree. Republican politicians and their wealthy supporters are evil geniuses. If they could get ID to fly, they'd make $billions and be further toward their goal of converting the US to a religious dictatorship. One of their top priorities is to brainwash people to reject logical thought, so they'll work harder and/or pay more to make the leaders richer. Almost half of adults are too far gone; they're too smart. But children are still malleable.

I disagree. Republican politicians and their wealthy supporters are evil geniuses. If they could get ID to fly, they'd make $billions and be further toward their goal of converting the US to a religious dictatorship. One of their top priorities is to brainwash people to reject logical thought, so they'll work harder and/or pay more to make the leaders richer. Almost half of adults are too far gone; they're too smart. But children are still malleable.

Hey, that explains how Bush and company knew about WMD and no one else did! :rolleyes:

You are right about that. The Israelis are using the Republicans. ............. What do they care? Bush and Cheny have set up both of their families to be Dynasties for the next 60 years with the oil contracts from Iraq.

To be fair, The Israeli backers have both parties serving them. The corporate welfare state also has both parties serving them.

it seems like the republicans arent getting away with everything at this point. Bush is on super defensive about the war, spying on people, and having no credibility. no one takes cheney seriously.
the republican administration is plagued with accusations of torture, secret prisons, secret spying, secret everything. scooter libby is idicted. tom delay is indicted. the dukester is going to go to jail. i mean that doesnt look like sunshine and roses to me.
the problem isnt republicans or republicanism, its that our society is apathetic to the point of retardation until something goes wrong. we dont do anything to stop the war in iraq during the run up to it, we just react to it 3 or 4 years later. our representatives are the voice of monied interests, and not the common person, and we should accept that they probably always have been. we still dont have hydrogen cars. we still dont have solar cars. gas prices are soaring through the fucking roof, yet our government, so hog tied by automaker and fossil fuel dealer interests, cant bring themselves to say look people shouldnt have to suffer through this lets make cars that operate on gasoline illegal by 2010. our government agencies designed for emergency response cannot even properly respond to a disaster when it occurs. it should be clear that these things that are wrong have their root cause in the actions of more than one party. it doesnt matter, republican or democrat, they are essentially the same breed of useless power drunk greed infested politician. we do not have a democracy and should not expect that we will reap any of the benefits that democracy has to offer.

Although I'd say charles is a little angsty (perhaps rightfully so) in his post, to me he is right on the money. The issue isn't whether a Republican or a Democrat is our president, the issue is how overly broken the whole system is.

By the time any politician makes it to the federal level (and probably long before that) he or she has already been fully reprogrammed, no matter how genuine he/she was when first deciding to go into politics. Human nature insures that power corrupts.

A question then, is can a system be devised that can use human nature to the advantage of society instead of against it? Or perhaps one already exists?

I don't know, this is all off the top of my head so sorry if I am meandering a bit.

-C.

I keep hearing about the super-evil Republicans and their world-domination machinations, but to be honest, I don't really see the basis for those claims.

It's not the Republicans who want to dominate the world; it's the neocon subgroup and there is a diversity of goals and methods even within the people who could be called neocons. The word domination they seek is more like the neocolonialism of the 1950s (without the competion from the Soviet Union) than it is like the dreams of Hitler, Napoleon, and ceasar. Read PNAC and read the 1990s writings of the various PNAC members. The "conspiracy" is not much of a conspiracy because it is in the open and is consistent with the past 100 years of US foreign policy.

But I want a break from the past. I want the USA to lay the ground work for a world working harmoniously for the betterment of mandkind by having the USA declare a unilateral cease fire in the sleazy competition for power and gifts to corporate friends. The Neocons want the USA to lay the ground work for a world working harmoniously for the betterment of mankind by having the USA win the sleazy competition for power and gifts to corporate friends. To them gifts to corporate friends is how the world works and you need all the friends you can get. To me real free market capitalism is the goal and crony capitalism is the obstacle.

.................................................. ..........................................

Excerpt from a speech delivered in 1933, by Major General Smedley Butler, USMC
War is just a racket. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of people. Only a small inside group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few at the expense of the masses.
I believe in adequate defense at the coastline and nothing else. If a nation comes over here to fight, then we'll fight. The trouble with America is that when the dollar only earns 6 percent over here, then it gets restless and goes overseas to get 100 percent. Then the flag follows the dollar and the soldiers follow the flag.
I wouldn't go to war again as I have done to protect some lousy investment of the bankers. There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
There isn't a trick in the racketeering bag that the military gang is blind to. It has its "finger men" to point out enemies, its "muscle men" to destroy enemies, its "brain men" to plan war preparations, and a "Big Boss" Super-Nationalistic-Capitalism.
It may seem odd for me, a military man to adopt such a comparison. Truthfulness compels me to. I spent thirty- three years and four months in active military service as a member of this country's most agile military force, the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from Second Lieutenant to Major-General. And during that period, I spent most of my time being a high class muscle- man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the Bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism.
I suspected I was just part of a racket at the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all the members of the military profession, I never had a thought of my own until I left the service. My mental faculties remained in suspended animation while I obeyed the orders of higher-ups. This is typical with everyone in the military service.
I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
During those years, I had, as the boys in the back room would say, a swell racket. Looking back on it, I feel that I could have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.




I think that is the primary problem with the Republican opposition's tactics; they claim all of these conspiratorial schemes, but no one ever sees the schemes reach fruition. It seems to me that people tend to take a small sound byte or a sentence in a report and blow it out of proportion.


Your talking about people like me at sciforums, and lefty bloggers, and Michael Moore and maybe Noam Chomsky, but we all together have little influence over the Democratic party. The Democratic party refused to support the congressional black caucus in their efforts to get to the truth about the USA governments role in overthrowing Aristide in Haiti.

There is not just a sound bite to look at, there is a mountain of information and misinformation and disinformation to be sifted through and nobody but amatuer conspiracy theorists and government spooks sworn to silence to do the sifting. The main stream Journalists must produce revenues and are therefore limited in how much information sifting they can do.

All the little sound bytes are hints at larger government mindset. There is no conspiracy, just undiscovered truth.


Republicans corrupt? Of course.
Republicans evil super-geniuses bent on taking over the world? Probably not.


Most politicians from all parties all over the world are corrupt. What else do we expect from people who want power and are willing to tell people whatever they have to tell the people in order to get the people to vote for them.

Rupublican don't want to take over the world, Neocons do. The Neocons are not super geniuses, but they dream of being super geniuses. The Neocons are just grown up geeky boys who like playing tactical games with real power in the same way they once played chess with friends.


On a side note, all this talk about Democrats and Republicans I assume refers to the politicians, not to the members of either party right? Because I know a lot of really great people who identify themselves as Republicans (and Democrats, for that matter) and they are most definitely not morally bankrupt or uncaring of human life.
C.

The members of the parties are just people driven to different sets of rhetoric by something in the past that shaped their attitudes and emotions. Nobody is accusing people who get queasy at the thought of gay sex or people who hate taxes of having a desire to dominate the world.

However, kind smart great people can be idiotic enough to vote for sleazy politicians or politicians with insane visions of what they want to achieve.
Hitler had appeal to both left socialists and right ultra-nationalist and crony capitalists. The German people elected Hitler and most of them liked Hitler and thought he was a strong and good leader. Anybody half way in between Jimmy Carter and Hitler is still too much like Hitler for me to be comfortable tollerating them as my president. The Germans are not so different from Americans that we Americans can stop being vigilent against making the same kinds of mistakes that they made when choosing leaders.

Thank you for that post, it provides a lot of useful information without a lot of vitriol (which I so often observe from those who align themselves on the far edges of their cause).

My only question with what you said is about the neocons. Are they succeeding with their project? How can we tell? The PNAC "Statement of Principles" seems like a good place to start, but is there a compilation of the "mountain of information and misinformation and disinformation" that I can look at, or will I too have to sift through it all myself? Speaking of that, if there is no compilation anywhere, why isn't there?

As they say, knowledge is power and I am very interested in being empowered (so I can make informed decisions, not so I can become corrupt ;)).

Cheers,

-C.

My main problem with the Neocons is that they are trying to do the impossible and therefore can never suceed but trying to succed will be expensive and create blowback.

Al Qaeda is to a degree blow back from the war against the Soviets. The Mullahs rule over Iran is blowback from the neoconlike theories that Eisenhower followed that made him choose to topple Mosadegh. I would love to hear whether Cheney and Rumsfeld think toppling Mosadegh was a wise move.

That being said, the neocons have managed to get small US military bases set up all over the world and they have gotten the Afghan people to knowingly and willingly vote for the puppet "karzai" leader that the neocons chose for Afghanistan. The softer neocons really did want the USA to create a democracy in Iraq as a way of changing the culture of the region. I disagree with their thinking that a democratic Arab world would be a safer world for Israel. One devide between the pro-Democracy/ pro-Israel neocons and the realpolitic neocons is over whether letting a pro-democracy movement threaton the regimes in Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia would be a good thing.

Put PNAC in google and the PNAC bashers will give their summaries and compilations but they are biassed and will distort against PNAC. The neocons themself can't decide if any such thing as neocons exists. PNAC is wordy and will not summarize itself.

Burried in somewhere in PNACs writing is a line about not allowing any alliance of nations to arise that can resist American will in the way that the Alliance based arround the Soviet Union did. I have seen the line with my own eyes at the PNAC site but can't tell you where it is. They are not completely off the wall but I don't agree with their thinking. People involved with PNAC often wrote about not losing the opportunities presented by the fall of the Soviet Union leaving the USA as the Unipolar superpower. They think the unipolar Superpower status is worth preserving and would be something that a unipower superpower would be able to preserve if the superpower tried to preseve it.

I think trying to preserve the unipolar superpower situation will bankrupt America. Empires (even neocolonial empires) only work if the various parts of the empire pay for the forces that hold the empire together. If Saudi Arabia and Turkey and indonesia and Mexico and Poland won't pay for the USA to maintain it's military superiority then the USA will bleed itself dry trying to pay for the superiority. Trying to be the leader of the world will create resentments against the USA. I learned these lessons from watching the failure of the British and French empires. I don't think Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, and Kristol agree with my take on the cost of empire.

Here is a list of Neocons, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_described_as_neoconservatives
and a still large summary on Neoconservatism, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_(United_States)

Leftys who had no idea what neoconservativism was started using the word incorrectly after the Bush election.

You can waste a lot of time studying history and politics. I have for thirtyfive years. I am fourtyfive now. The TV and radio media rarely present anything in context because they don't believe that their viewers have the patience for context and context is subjective and controversial. Seing the neoconservative/PNAC context made me interpret the alledged intelligence blunders arround Iraqi WMD as deliberate lies to get America into Iraq.

Putting "Seymour hersh" "Karen Kwiatkowski" "Scott Ritter" WMD in a google search should get you to good starting points to understand that Bush lied us into Iraq and the CIA did not crew up the intelligence. Our media hasn't had the courage to use the "lie" word, but "lie" is the right word. If Bush deeply believed that going into Iraq was the correct choice, does that justify lying to get us into war? It might.

When Clinton lied, Fox and Limbaugh had no fear of using the "lie" word.

To understand the lefts paranoia about the US governments abuse of power to interfere with legitimate dissent read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

That just scratches the surface of how the government has tried to screw with the left.

Tax dollars are still being wasted on the fear of the left:

December 19, 2005
Feds Question Student, Frighten UM-Darmouth Faculty
"Why are You Reading that Little Red Book?"

By GARY LEUPP

Just when you think it can't get crazier, it gets crazier. Aaron Nicodemus, a journalist with the southern Massachusetts newspaper The Standard-Times, reports that in October of this year a senior at the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth was visited by federal agents and questioned about a book he had ordered through inter-library loan. Apparently U Mass librarians are cooperating with the USA-Patriot Act. You know, the one that's all about Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism. The book was for a research paper he was doing for a course on fascism and totalitarianism taught by Professor Robert Pontbriand, a specialist in European intellectual and cultural history. The agents visited the student after he ordered a book that is, they informed him, on a "watch list."

http://www.counterpunch.org/leupp12192005.html

Thank you for that post, it provides a lot of useful information without a lot of vitriol (which I so often observe from those who align themselves on the far edges of their cause).

Are you serious that you don’t see where this administration is going? We’ve got a guy, Padilla, in solitary confinement for 3 years now without formal charges, without access to a lawyer until recently, and the informal charges given to the media have changed about 4 times. The government already has a track record of bringing formal charges that don’t stick after long confinements. We’ve got a president who says, through Rice, “the US doesn’t torture” even as he’s in a heated political fight to legalize torture. He’s on record as blatantly lying dozen of times about huge issues. For example, he’s tied Iraq to 9/11 over and over, getting Republican voters all worked up, and then when pressed for evidence he denies saying it even though it’s on the public record. He gives giant no-bid contracts to his V.P.’s former company. He’s exploded the federal deficit while giving giant tax cuts to the rich. He's dismantling the Endangered Species Act and dismissing global warming. And the list goes on and on and on. It’s so obvious what’s happening that I can’t believe that anyone who seriously reads the news could miss it. No, I won’t offer proof of anything here. I’m just giving you some info you can use to do searches yourself.

Are you serious that you don’t see where this administration is going? We’ve got a guy, Padilla, in solitary confinement for 3 years now without formal charges, without access to a lawyer until recently, and the informal charges given to the media have changed about 4 times. The government already has a track record of bringing formal charges that don’t stick after long confinements. We’ve got a president who says, through Rice, “the US doesn’t torture” even as he’s in a heated political fight to legalize torture. He’s on record as blatantly lying dozen of times about huge issues. For example, he’s tied Iraq to 9/11 over and over, getting Republican voters all worked up, and then when pressed for evidence he denies saying it even though it’s on the public record. He gives giant no-bid contracts to his V.P.’s former company. He’s exploded the federal deficit while giving giant tax cuts to the rich. He's dismantling the Endangered Species Act and dismissing global warming. And the list goes on and on and on. It’s so obvious what’s happening that I can’t believe that anyone who seriously reads the news could miss it. No, I won’t offer proof of anything here. I’m just giving you some info you can use to do searches yourself.

As far as I can tell, there are justifications for each of those things you mentioned. Perhaps it's a viewpoint difference that people aren't seeing past? The thing that separates the Dems and Repubs? From my point-of-view, Dems see a statement or decision and take its outcome more in a global context, how it relates to the big picture, whereas a Repub will see a statement or decision and take its outcome in a more self-centered sense, "how can this benefit me?" line of thought. I make no claims to knowing the right way of thinking, but I can see merit (and failings) in both methods.

So, for instance, I can read the news about Halliburton (or its subsidiaries) landing huge no-bid contracts and see that in two different ways:

Halliburton is a huge corporation and has close ties to Cheney so they should not be getting any no-bids (other smaller companies should).
Halliburton is the best at its line of work so of course they will win the contract, they have a strong record of getting the work done so I'm ok with that.


Just trying to make the point that people do see things in different ways, maybe it would benefit everyone to think of the other side's POV now and then (maybe not)?

As for things like COINTELPRO and THERMCON and who knows how many other secretive operations have been/are going on, that sucks, and we need to do something about it as American citizens. Incidentally, both parties have been involved in ops likes those, so to make generalizations about Repubs or Dems and their degree of evilness doesn't seem to pan out too well (which is why I like to blanket-blame all politicians :))

-C.

As far as I can tell, there are justifications for each of those things you mentioned.

For most liberals, there is no justification for any of those things. That’s why the country is so divided. Stealing, murder, torture, imprisonment without charge, mass environmental destruction, gross fiscal mismanagement...only Republicans happily abide those things.

So, for instance, I can read the news about Halliburton (or its subsidiaries) landing huge no-bid contracts and see that in two different ways:

Halliburton is a huge corporation and has close ties to Cheney so they should not be getting any no-bids (other smaller companies should).
Halliburton is the best at its line of work so of course they will win the contract, they have a strong record of getting the work done so I'm ok with that.


Yeah, let’s take this for-instance, even though it’s one of the minor things (enough for impeachment if the Democrats did it, but still minor compared to the other stuff Bush has done). No company should get a no-bid contract. That was not the American way, as almost any liberal innately understands. It used to be that the best company was the one that could fulfill the contract at the lowest price, giving the taxpayers the best value. What you are “ok with” is an assumption that Halliburton is the best company for the job. Liberals are not okay with that, for that way leads to favoritism and, ultimately, dictatorship.

Likewise, the accused, like Padilla, used to be presumed innocent. Now they are presumed guilty, and this basic right of our Constitution is ignored. What justification do you see there?

Just trying to make the point that people do see things in different ways, maybe it would benefit everyone to think of the other side's POV now and then (maybe not)?

A typical liberal has already thought about the other side’s POV, and has soundly rejected it.

As for things like COINTELPRO and THERMCON and who knows how many other secretive operations have been/are going on, that sucks, and we need to do something about it as American citizens. Incidentally, both parties have been involved in ops likes those, so to make generalizations about Repubs or Dems and their degree of evilness doesn't seem to pan out too well (which is why I like to blanket-blame all politicians :))

Democrats are not innocent, but they clearly provide a public service whereas the Republicans do the opposite.

House Bill 3 has already passed the Ohio House of Representatives and is about to be approved by the Republican-dominated Senate, probably before the holiday recess. Republicans dominate the Ohio legislature thanks to a heavily gerrymandered crazy quilt of rigged districts, and to a moribund Ohio Democratic party. The GOP-drafted HB3 is designed to all but obliterate any possible future Democratic revival. Opposition from the Ohio Democratic Party, where it exists at all, is diffuse and ineffectual.

HB3's most publicized provision will require positive identification before casting a vote. But it also opens voter registration activists to partisan prosecution, exempts electronic voting machines from public scrutiny, quintuples the cost of citizen-requested statewide recounts and makes it illegal to challenge a presidential vote count or, indeed, any federal election result in Ohio. When added to the recently passed HB1, which allows campaign financing to be dominated by the wealthy and by corporations, and along with a Rovian wish list of GOP attacks on the ballot box, democracy in Ohio could be all but over.

With new legislation, Ohio Republicans plan holiday burial for American Democracy (http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1607In)

All very interesting points for me to mull over whilst on vacation, thanks to all for taking time to discuss things with me.

Just for the record, I make no claims to believing any of the arguments I suggested, I was just hoping for some intelligent discussion, which was received. Personally, I am not ready to formulate an absolute opinion on anything political since politics seems to be ever shifting. I don't want to end up advocating a cause that has long since stopped being the right one, nor do I wish to ever let others do my thinking for me.

Happy holidays, all.

-C.

I don't want to end up advocating a cause that has long since stopped being the right one, nor do I wish to ever let others do my thinking for me.

Yes, always think for yourself. Hopefully you are young and just starting to form your opinions. We still have enough democracy left that we have access to numerous decent news sources; the Republicans are fast eroding that, and someday there will be only good news. Conversations like this will be illegal like they are in China. Become adept at winnowing the news to see what's really happening. Read the book 1984 to see where the Republicans are taking us.

Happy holidays, all.

And to you.