The book of mormon clearly tells how after his resurection Jesus came to America, and left behind new tablets of commandmants to be found by John Smith, who subsequently lost them, but he DID write them down (words from god after all, of course he would have a backup). John Smith started the mormon religion, now the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints.

My question is why does mainstream christianity refuse to accept John Smith as the prophet of the lord and savior Jesus Christ?



Note: yes you may interpret this as a satire on the thread about why do jews refuse to accept jesus.

Joseph Smith.

yes, same question only lets replace all those johns with josephs

First of all, Joseph Smith was disenchanted with religion early in his life, and it is possible that he simply created a religion that he could be satisfied with. He was supposedly given the golden tablets by the angel Moroni. We are asked to believe that Moroni also took the tablets back when Smith's enemies attempted to steal them. Other elements of Smith's history, such as the "special glasses" he had to use to read the divine tablets, are debatable and just plain silly.

The culture of the Mormons during their trek to Utah was tribal and often brutal. Joseph Smith had his "bodyguard" Orrin Porter Rockwell kill quite a few people. Rockwell was in actuality little more than a church assassin. Brigham Young also had similar henchmen. Furthermore, the Mormons during this era were also polygamists. Not very credible people.

Why should we Christians believe or even respect the claims of this false prophet?

One of the biggest frauds in modern history but only the victims seem unable to see what to anyone who has looked is so obvious.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/stephen_eck/mormon.html

Just one big joke.

For once I give credit to Christianity for not accepting this incredible gibberish.

I can back all this up with credible sources, and the very books mormons study, so I'm not afraid to say it.

Joseph Smith is a complete idiot. He said that there are 1000 year old men living on the moon who dress like quakers. (I have the source for this at home - I'm at the library now).

Joseph Smith said that he did more then Jesus for the church.

The mormon religion is racist. They believe that all black people were evil in the pre-existence (a made up place) and thus made black, and that they turn white when they are converted.

Mormons teach secret handshakes that you need to do to get into higher levels of heaven when they die.

I can keep going but I think this is enough for now.

In conclution I'd just like to say, Mormonism is stupid, Joseph Smith is at this present time burning in hell. And all mormons will as well, because they believe in a false Jesus (apparantly who is Satans spirit brother), a false God (who apparantly used to be a man on another planet), and are totally blind!

Mormons will say that I'm just an anti-mormon, I'd have to agree, but that doesn't mean that I'm a wrong anti-mormon. Christianity is the truth, mormonism is a cult!!!!!!!

The book of Mormon has large sections copied from the KJV along with mistakes in the KJV. Worst they had considerable changes to what Joseph taught. For example, blacks were not allowed to be temple priest, now they are.

So if mormons are a dangerous wrong minded cult, then why did god give them the olympics? Or maybe satan awards the olympics, after all was started to celebrate filthy pagan greek gods who were no doubt satan in a clever wig.

Originally posted by Cernunnos
First of all, Joseph Smith was disenchanted with religion early in his life, and it is possible that he simply created a religion that he could be satisfied with. He was supposedly given the golden tablets by the angel Moroni. We are asked to believe that Moroni also took the tablets back when Smith's enemies attempted to steal them. Other elements of Smith's history, such as the "special glasses" he had to use to read the divine tablets, are debatable and just plain silly.

The culture of the Mormons during their trek to Utah was tribal and often brutal. Joseph Smith had his "bodyguard" Orrin Porter Rockwell kill quite a few people. Rockwell was in actuality little more than a church assassin. Brigham Young also had similar henchmen. Furthermore, the Mormons during this era were also polygamists. Not very credible people.

Why should we Christians believe or even respect the claims of this false prophet?

I don't know, you seem to accept Moses and a lot of other prophets with at least equally shady backgrounds. What's so heinous about Smith compared to, say, Elijah?

Originally posted by drnihili
I don't know, you seem to accept Moses and a lot of other prophets with at least equally shady backgrounds. What's so heinous about Smith compared to, say, Elijah?

well thats really the core of it right there isnt it? if a lot of people say its so then it is. if only some folks who i hear a lot of bad things about say it then it isnt. Right? Who needs evedence or reasons to believe things, when EVERYONE says it.

Originally posted by Cernunnos
First of all, Joseph Smith was disenchanted with religion early in his life, and it is possible that he simply created a religion that he could be satisfied with.

Why could the same not be said about Jesus? The man didn't like the Jews too much, and it sounds to me as though he and his apostles (or possie) got off on busting up Jewish temples and acting all holier than thou.

Originally posted by Cris

For once I give credit to Christianity for not accepting this incredible gibberish.

The only difference between Mormonism and regular Christianity (in any of it's flavors) is a long history of believing. And certainly just because they've all been fooled for longer doesn't mean that they are any more right. To say that Mormon beliefs are any less credible is just bigotry and discrimination. It's the same fucking thing.

No its not. Their own beliefs contradict themselves. They believe in the whole KJV bible, but also the book of mormon. However the Isaiah says that God is one and there is no other besides God, but they believe that they can become gods. And the entire theory that the Church fell into disbelief is wrong because Jesus says that his church will prevail against the gates of hell.

http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lds-mormon.com%2Fcampbell.shtml

http://atheism.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.infidels.org%2Fl ibrary%2Fmodern%2Fcurt_heuvel%2Fbom_bible.html

If we want to get into a contradiction contest, the bible contradicts itself pretty plainly. But let's not go there. For every contradiction pointed out, believers have a response. The same is true of mormons. From what I've seen in the links, the responses are even pretty easy. Mormons have some weird beliefs. But certainly nothing much weirder than transubstantiation.

I can understand other christians not wanting to believe Smith's teaching. A lot of christians don't accept the pope either. Internecine conflicts are expected in religion. WHat I don't understand is the vehemence that mormons don't even count as christians. That's absurd on the face of it. Anything that can be said against the mormons can pretty much be said against the catholics. And claiming that catholics aren't christian would stretch the meaning of "christian" to the breaking point.

Mormons have some weird beliefs. But certainly nothing much weirder than transubstantiation.

What can be simpler than "This is my body".


I can understand other christians not wanting to believe Smith's teaching. A lot of christians don't accept the pope either. Internecine conflicts are expected in religion. WHat I don't understand is the vehemence that mormons don't even count as christians. That's absurd on the face of it. Anything that can be said against the mormons can pretty much be said against the catholics. And claiming that catholics aren't christian would stretch the meaning of "christian" to the breaking point.

They believe in multiple gods and so are pagan by most defintions.

Originally posted by okinrus
They believe in multiple gods and so are pagan by most defintions.

Are you presuming that pagan and christian are mutually exclusive categories? If so, why?

Also you've somewhat misrepresented mormon doctrine. They have no other gods beyond the trinity. If the mere acknowlegement of the existence of other gods is sufficient to classify someone as non-christian, then most of the writers of the old testament must qualify as pagan. Even the commandment "Thou shalt no other gods before me", admits the possibility of other gods, it merely prohibits worshipping them. We could also go into the use of plurals in the original Herbrew, but that might be a bit recondite for the moment.

Are you presuming that pagan and christian are mutually exclusive categories? If so, why?

From Webster
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)


Also you've somewhat misrepresented mormon doctrine. They have no other gods beyond the trinity. If the mere acknowlegement of the existence of other gods is sufficient to classify someone as non-christian, then most of the writers of the old testament must qualify as pagan. Even the commandment "Thou shalt no other gods before me", admits the possibility of other gods, it merely prohibits worshipping them. We could also go into the use of plurals in the original Herbrew, but that might be a bit recondite for the moment.

Number one, they believe in three seperate gods of the trinity. Worshiping three gods, contradicts the 1st commandment and Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him stand up and speak, make it evident, and confront me with it." They distort scripture to their own destruction. For John says that we will be like Christ in our resurrection, but he does not mean that we will be like gods but that we will be in God's glory and presence. Worst of all they sell their beliefs to immigrants and non-christians. They distort, lie, and cover up. http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=mormon

Originally posted by okinrus
From Webster
1 : HEATHEN 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)


Yes, yes, I understand that you're using pagan to mean something like polytheist. That's not the point. WHy can't a christian be a polytheist? I understand that you believe that god has commanded against polytheism, but surely you don't think that anyone who breaks one of the ten commandments no longer qualifies as a christian.

My question isn't, why are they not the one true church? It's why don't they get to be in the christian camp along with all the other people you cosider to be heretics?


Number one, they believe in three seperate gods of the trinity. Worshiping three gods, contradicts the 1st commandment and Isaiah 44:6 "Thus says the LORD, Israel's King and redeemer, the LORD of hosts: I am the first and I am the last; there is no God but me. Who is like me? Let him stand up and speak, make it evident, and confront me with it." They distort scripture to their own destruction. For John says that we will be like Christ in our resurrection, but he does not mean that we will be like gods but that we will be in God's glory and presence. Worst of all they sell their beliefs to immigrants and non-christians. They distort, lie, and cover up. http://www.catholic.com/search.asp?searchType=file&target=mormon

Oh, catholic.com, now there's a site that's likely to present an unbiased view of mormonism. Do you suppose we ought go to mormon.com in order to find out what the catholics are really like? So let's stop the mindless mudslinging and get down to answering the question.

Buddhists aren't christian, because they don't profess a belief in christ or a belief in the bible. The same goes for Jews, muslims, hindus etc. But mormons do profess a belief in christ and they do profess a belief in the bible. Certainly they interpret the bible differently than other churches, but every church has it's idiosyncratic interpretation. Yes they have other scriptures, but other christian sects also dispute the canon. I understand you disagree with their doctrine, that's not the point. I even understand you think they're a bunch of evil bastards, again that's not the point. WHy do they not count as christian?

Yes, yes, I understand that you're using pagan to mean something like polytheist. That's not the point. WHy can't a christian be a polytheist? I understand that you believe that god has commanded against polytheism, but surely you don't think that anyone who breaks one of the ten commandments no longer qualifies as a christian.

My question isn't, why are they not the one true church? It's why don't they get to be in the christian camp along with all the other people you cosider to be heretics?

I do not consider all protestants heretics because you have to be Catholic and then convert to whatever. Catholics have more in common with muslims than mormons. To be christian you have to accept the Apostle's creed.


Oh, catholic.com, now there's a site that's likely to present an unbiased view of mormonism. Do you suppose we ought go to mormon.com in order to find out what the catholics are really like? So let's stop the mindless mudslinging and get down to answering the question.

I did go to mormon.com. There is little in the way of doctrinal value in that sight. In fact that is why I say they cover up their belief in the plurity of gods.


Buddhists aren't christian, because they don't profess a belief in christ or a belief in the bible. The same goes for Jews, muslims, hindus etc. But mormons do profess a belief in christ and they do profess a belief in the bible. Certainly they interpret the bible differently than other churches, but every church has it's idiosyncratic interpretation. Yes they have other scriptures, but other christian sects also dispute the canon. I understand you disagree with their doctrine, that's not the point. I even understand you think they're a bunch of evil bastards, again that's not the point. WHy do they not count as christian?

I'm not sure what you mean. The early christians did not believe in the bible because it was not put together yet. Anyways mormons cannot accept Christ as a savior since Isaiah also says "God is your only savior". Now where did I say that they were 'evil'? All I said was that they distort scripture. If they are truly ignorant of this, then they are not evil. But if they are not ignorant, then their actions are evil.

Originally posted by okinrus
To be christian you have to accept the Apostle's creed. Ok, I had a look at that. Nothing objectionable to mormons there, with the possible exception of how one should interpret "communion of the saints".


I'm not sure what you mean. The early christians did not believe in the bible because it was not put together yet. Anyways mormons cannot accept Christ as a savior since Isaiah also says "God is your only savior". Now where did I say that they were 'evil'? All I said was that they distort scripture. If they are truly ignorant of this, then they are not evil. But if they are not ignorant, then their actions are evil.

I'm sorry but I'm not following how the quote from Isaiah is relevant. As for where you said they were evil, you said the "distort, lie, and cover up". THose are pretty strong words, especially in the context you put them. The fact that you put "lie" in there shows that you meant they intentionally misrepresent things. If you're uncomfortable with the accusation, then apologize and retract it, but don't go pretending you didn't make it. For my part I'll happily admit that the leap from "distort, lie, and cover up" to "evil bastards" was entirely my own.

As a Mormon who despises apologetics, I never try to defend my personal and apparently irrational beliefs. I do, however, have to point out the irony of Biblicists who belittle the beliefs of other Biblicists. (I use the word "Biblicist" in place of "Christian" for those who would deny me that label.) An occasional look in the mirror might be illuminating.

Now, if any irreligious folks want to mock the Mormon church, I'll laugh along with them. It really does look funny from the outside, but not any funnier than most Christian sects.

They do not believe in God but gods so they contradict the apostle's creed. The nicene creed is where they really contradict. Most protestant's believe in both creeds as long as catholic church is interpreted as the universal church.


I'm sorry but I'm not following how the quote from Isaiah is relevant. As for where you said they were evil, you said the "distort, lie, and cover up". THose are pretty strong words, especially in the context you put them. The fact that you put "lie" in there shows that you meant they intentionally misrepresent things. If you're uncomfortable with the accusation, then apologize and retract it, but don't go pretending you didn't make it. For my part I'll happily admit that the leap from "distort, lie, and cover up" to "evil bastards" was entirely my own.

Ok I retract calling them "liars" since many lie, but few are professionals. I'm well aware that there are many whom have been decieved unknowingly. I believe that the head of the mormon church along with a few others are decieving people on purpose. When you call yourself a teacher, you have to be sure of yourself. That is why nothing I say should be taken as truth unless it's fully backed up by yourself, so that I do not end up lying. I've found that people lie because of ignorance. But to be a valid excuse this cannot be the false ignorance of over confidence. Anyways the Isaiah verse is important since he prophesies the Messiah.

Isaiah 43:10-12
"You are my witness, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be non. It is I, I the LORD; there is no savior but me. It is I who foretold, I who saved; I made it known, not any strange god among you; You are my witnesses, says the LORD. I am God, yes, from eternity I am He; There is none who can deliver from my hand: who can countermand what I do? Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sakes I send to Babylon; I will lower all the bars, and the Chaldeans shall cry out in lamentation. I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King."

Compare with
John 13
12
So when he had washed their feet (and) put his garments back on and reclined at table again, he said to them, "Do you realize what I have done for you?
13
You call me 'teacher' and 'master,' and rightly so, for indeed I am.
14
If I, therefore, the master and teacher, have washed your feet, you ought to wash one another's feet.
15
I have given you a model to follow, so that as I have done for you, you should also do.
16
Amen, amen, I say to you, no slave is greater than his master nor any messenger 7 greater than the one who sent him.
17
If you understand this, blessed are you if you do it.
18
I am not speaking of all of you. I know those whom I have chosen. But so that the scripture might be fulfilled, 'The one who ate my food has raised his heel against me.'
19
From now on I am telling you before it happens, so that when it happens you may believe that I AM.
20
Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever receives the one I send receives me, and whoever receives me receives the one who sent me."

And
John 6:45
"It is written in the prophets: 'They shall all be taught by God.'"

John 6:69
"We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." Jesus answered them, "Did I not choose you twelve? Yet is not one of you a devil?""
The Holy One refers to Isaiah

There's nothing in anything you've quoted that mormons would have a problem with. You do have a rather idiosyncratic reading that one cannot believe in god if one does so in a way that disagrees with you. It's particularly puzzling to me that you say.

They do not believe in God but gods

Are you insisting that because they don't buy the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity that they can't be considered christian? That doctrine was controversial when it started, more than a few were killed in order to get it accepted as standard.

Keep in mind that mormons accept every piece of scripture that you've quoted. They interpret some of them a bit differently than you do, but if we're going to insist on unity of biblical interpretation as a necessary condition for being christian, then precious few sects will qualify.

It occurs to me that perhaps you don't understand mormon doctrine very well. But beyond that, you have yet to explain why all this is necessary to being a christian. I understand that you think mormons aren't monotheistic. But I don't understand why you think monotheism is essential to christianity.

The apostles creed merely stipulates that you have to believe in

God, the Father Almighty,
the Creator of heaven and earth,
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord

It doesn't say you can't believe in other gods, and it certainly doeesn't say that you have to believe god the father and jesus his son are the same person. In fact a straightforward reading of the creed would lead one to think you should believe in two separate beings. Certainly that's how the grammar works. So if you want to take the apostle's creed as stating a requirement for monotheism, then it is you who are doing the deliberate distortion. Unless of course your reference to the apostle's creed was just a feint to throw off the uninitiated. Is there some other reason you think christians have to be monotheists? Because that one just doesn't even come close.

Are you insisting that because they don't buy the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity that they can't be considered christian? That doctrine was controversial when it started, more than a few were killed in order to get it accepted as standard.

Yes. However mormons are not just un-christian but polythiest. We have to draw the line somewhere.


Keep in mind that mormons accept every piece of scripture that you've quoted. They interpret some of them a bit differently than you do, but if we're going to insist on unity of biblical interpretation as a necessary condition for being christian, then precious few sects will qualify.

I do not see any other way to interpret it. "Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none."
Can you interpret this any other way but to conclude that there are no other gods but God?


It occurs to me that perhaps you don't understand mormon doctrine very well. But beyond that, you have yet to explain why all this is necessary to being a christian. I understand that you think mormons aren't monotheistic. But I don't understand why you think monotheism is essential to christianity.

Look at Islam. Allah is closer to the Trinity than the mormon gods. And no I do understand this mormon doctrin issue perfectly as I have spoken with an elder. I did not give him the verses from Isaiah but they would not hear any of the sort. It is like he was brainwashed. Simple verses such as "You shall not fashion any gods before me". Ok. So that means that we cannot fashion ourselves into god right? No, it's God himself who will make you into a god... it goes on and on.

I'm also dismayed. I do not wish to mock anyone. Christ was mocked, but this is a serious matter.

oh dear this thread is fullfilling my hopes, arguments of hate being used in place of logic because the issue is totaly subjective. In fact it might be of some subjective nature not yet classified by logicians... perhaps super subjective is what it should be called, some kind of higher subjective plain where fact is just an odd assortment of letters.

although you probably see this discussion as pivitol an intense, perhaps getting to the essence of something important... which depresses me.

im firmly and pretty much unmovably of the opinion that mormons are christians because they say they are, and because they have all the same trapings as any other denomination. All this stuff about them worshiping multiple gods, its bunk, they dont any more than any other denomination worshiping the trinity is worshiping multiple gods. But it makes good rhetoric for idiots who want to believe that there is a good reason thier religion is right VS mormonism.

They do not worship more than one God. The believe in more than one god though.


m firmly and pretty much unmovably of the opinion that mormons are christians because they say they are, and because they have all the same trapings as any other denomination. All this stuff about them worshiping multiple gods, its bunk, they dont any more than any other denomination worshiping the trinity is worshiping multiple gods. But it makes good rhetoric for idiots who want to believe that there is a good reason thier religion is right VS mormonism.

What they say shouldn't matter. There are people who say they are god. Does that mean that they are?

OK. I'm going to change my mind...
The definition of a christian is a deciple of christ. And how do you know if someone is an deciple of Christ. If they follow John 13:33 "My children, I will be with you only a little while longer. You will look for me, and as I told the Jews, 'Where I go you cannot come,' so now I say it to you. I give you a new commandment: love one another. As I have loved you, so you also should love on another. This is how all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another."

I still question how he can call us children if he's not one with the Father?

Originally posted by okinrus
What they say shouldn't matter. There are people who say they are god. Does that mean that they are?

No it doesn't mean that they are gods, but it does mean that they are theists. The fact that mormons claim a belief in christ as god doesn't mean that christ is god, but it does seem to make a prima facie case for mormons being christian.

Thus far you still haven't provided an answer to why they shouldn't be. You've cited some scriptures which you interpret differently than they do, and you've cited the apostle's creed which doesn't say anything at all like what you say it does.

It now seems that on your view, christians have to accept the mediaeval doctrine of the trinity. Of course, most so called christian churches don't accept trinitarianism in that sense. And if you weaken the sense, then mormons get to be trinitarians too. Oh, and if you don't weaken it, then you have to say that the catholic church has been intermittently not christian as it has gone back and forth accepting the doctrine.

So what do you gain by saying that mormons aren't christians? Why not make the obvious move of saying that a christian is someone who believes in the divinity of christ? Mormons get to be christians, and you get to say that they are heretics. Presumably you don't agree with all christian churches, why not just add one more to the list of christian churches you think are wrong rather than single mormons out as not even christian?

*Edit* I'm a slow typer, okinrus' latest reply wasn't there when I started.

Originally posted by okinrus
I still question how he can call us children if he's not one with the Father?

My son's daycare teacher refers to the entire class as "her kids". Do you think she's seriously claiming to be their mother? It's a term of endearment. It's very common in many cultures. And it's especially common with teachers. I even use it with my students, and they aren't even children. Or are you proposing that every word of the Bible is strictly literal?

This was supposed to be a joke.
Mark 3:35 "whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother"

Originally posted by okinrus
This was supposed to be a joke.
Mark 3:35 "whoever does the will of God is my brother and sister and mother"

My bad. Once again my sense of humor has retired before me. I guess I should go join it in bed.

cheers

Originally posted by answers
Christianity is the truth, mormonism is a cult!!!!!!!

"A cult is a religion with no political power." - Tom Wolfe

originally posted by okinrus
Their own beliefs contradict themselves
priceless, this is exactly the same situation your in if you believe in christianity (well, perhaps not beliefs, but if beliefs are whats in the bible and you believe in the bible then it is most definately the same situation).