I am not a Jew. I have never met a Jew. I am no Jew-lover. I am nobody-lover. I just have this one question: Can someone tell me why there is so much hatred for Jews?

Please spare me the biblical explanations. We don't live in biblical times. And please don't equate Israel with Jews. I'm asking about Jews in general - those living in other countries but face the same discrimination.

The reason I ask this is because based on what I've seen thus far, this board is quite tolerant of Jew-bashing. Members are quick to react if someone makes a racist or anti-American remarks but when it comes to Jew-bashing, it's pretty much free-for-all.

Why is that? I mean there must be decent Jewish fathers, mothers and children out there and I'm sure they don't like to be stereotyped anymore than the next person.

I also have a related question to ask: if a thread is started with the sole purpose of expressing hatred for an ethnic group, should it be removed/closed? Members' opinion? Moderator's?

Why there is so much hatred for Jews?

I have no idea if such is the case. One can replace such words with any other - and there will always be people who agree with it. There are 6 billion people and a vast majority may not have a first hand knowledge about it.

It's fun!

*Xev extends her arms crucifex-style and sings:*

Take your hatred out on me
Make your victim my head

Part of it no doubt stems from Israel’s heavy-handed treatment of Palestinians. The Israelis use armored bulldozers to render Palestinians homeless with no recompense. They also, as a matter of policy, punish an entire family for the suspected crime of one member, arriving in the wee hours to give a three-minute warning before bulldozing the house. Anyone who doesn’t flee is squashed. A month ago they flattened a 68-year old man who didn’t heed the warning because he was deaf.

Their heavy-hand may not be heavy enough - otherwise all the organized bombers would be gone or in jail by now....

A common sentiment. Two wrongs never made a right.

A common sentiment. Two wrongs never made a right.

A trite turn of phrase does not a brilliant geopolitical statement make.

The only Jew-bashing I've seen is from YKJ, who seems to be joking, and from GB, who is Jewish I believe.

Xev - But it rings so true! You’re right though. I’ll come up with an updated version for the next usage.

Can someone tell me why there is so much hatred for Jews?

When they first appeared as an identifiable group around 1,200 BCE, they were, like many other groups, semi-nomadic people who rode around fighting, conquering, having wars and such. One of their first wars involved trying to conquer the Pentapolis of the Philistines (Palestinians). Right there you've got historical background for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. Why do I say Israeli insetad of Jew there? They are interchangable terms, since Jews are known in anthropology/archaeology as Israelites; also because Israel is, clearly, a state created by the UN for Jewish people.

Another reason. Back in the Crusades, I think it was Pope Urban the Second issued an edict that killing Christians was wrong, so good christians should take up arms, go the Holy Land, and slaughter infidels. Unfortunately, many people thought "Why go all the way over there to kill non-christians, when we have plenty right here at home?" So many started killing Jews in Europe. This ahd the unfortunate effect of causing mass hysteria in Jewish communities, and soon whole Jewish communities in Europe, upon hearing of any nearby movement of armies, started committing suicide; the men and women would go about the community killing their own children, then themselves, with the idea that it was better to die by their own hand than by the hands of non-Jews. This mass slaughter of children, women, themselves, pretty much sickened everyone else in the world, adding to the current (at the time) ideas about Jews being some of those icky non-christians.

Another reason is that, at least here in Australia, Jewish people tend to live together, in "Jewish suburbs". They gather together to maintain their culture. This of course creates a slight feeling of "us and them", which may or may not have any merit, but it does exist among many. Personally I like it. I love being able to drive from one suburb to the next and be able to experience entirely different cultures.


And please don't equate Israel with Jews.

Again, Israelite = Jew. Unless you wish to use politically correct terms which have nothing to do with actual history and movements of people.


The reason I ask this is because based on what I've seen thus far, this board is quite tolerant of Jew-bashing. Members are quick to react if someone makes a racist or anti-American remarks but when it comes to Jew-bashing, it's pretty much free-for-all.

First you make an assumption, as do many American users of this BBS, that some of us are "America-bashing". This is of course incorrect. Most of us who point out the hypocrisy of the Bush adminstration are bashing the USA's government, not the USA.

Second, as I said before, most of the clear "Jew-bashing" I've seen comes from two sources: You Killed Jesus, who seems to be joking; and GB, who I believe is Jewish.

The only Jew-bashing I've seen is from YKJ, who seems to be joking, and from GB, who is Jewish I believe.
What about this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11393&perpage=10&pagenumber=1)?

Originally posted by EvilPoet
What about this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11393&perpage=10&pagenumber=1)?

1) It starts with a link to a total whacko website, and with a question rather than a statement.

2) The closest that thread comes to Jew-bashing is the initial link to a whacko website, and Prozak decrying a couple of religions.

3) The only real bashing of any group in that thread is when someone insults Islam with the brilliant "Fuck Mohammed".

I was just curious what you thought. Thanks
for the reply, much appreciated. :)

*jumps out of thread*

3) The only real bashing of any group in that thread is when someone insults Islam with the brilliant "Fuck Mohammed".
Who would say such a thing!?

Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Who would say such a thing!?
I believe it was the new moderator of General Philosophy. :D

First you make an assumption,

Seeing as to how I seem to be the only one that is bothered, I think perhaps you may be right. Perhaps my naivity is at fault. Or perhaps I have not been around here long enough to read between the lines and get the joke when I see one. If that be the case, then my apologies if I offended anyone by starting this thread.

Just to make it clear, me and many others DO bash the American government. It's crap and needs a kick in the nuts.

Originally posted by 1119
Seeing as to how I seem to be the only one that is bothered,
You are not the only one, it bothers me as well. Any kind of bashing
bothers me. But I have found debating the issues is a waste of time
and energy (I stated this about religion in another post). Which is
why I rarely post anything to these types of threads. In my case
please don't take lack of response to mean lack of interest.

Take care,
EvilPoet

*jumps out of thread*

Because they are jealous! Many Jews are lawyers and doctors and they are usually very good in bed.

Originally posted by Joeman
Because they are jealous! .

You Wish.:o

I believe it was the new moderator of General Philosophy.

Oh yeah...:D But she's uber cool.

Hi guysie wisies,
What is all this about kicking someone off a board just because someone is afraid he may may not be PC. Grow up!!

Hi guysie wisies,
What is all this about kicking someone off a board because they make an ethnic remark? So what!! I am an ethnic sort myself. Do i get upset when somone starts talking about the "f**ing frenchies"? Hell No!! I couldn't care less! I would hope that my ego is robust enough to be able to stand a little flak. Otherwise how would my iddy bitty eegy-weegy-o ever be able to tolerate any kind of criticism. Good God 1119, give it a break and give US a break!!
-- Eegy weegy-o is VEWY OFFENDED and insulted. Shamey wamey on YOU, you pablum-puking self righteous asshole!! I'll bet you have smoking a LOT of :m:

What is all this about kicking someone off a board because they make an ethnic remark?
Please show me where I have said anything about kicking anyone off the board.

I am an ethnic sort myself.
Everyone is of an ethnic sort, no?

I couldn't care less!
Others might.

I would hope that my ego is robust enough to be able to stand a little flak. Otherwise how would my iddy bitty eegy-weegy-o ever be able to tolerate any kind of criticism.
Criticism over one's action is fine. Criticism because of one's race - where's the constructiveness in that?

-- Eegy weegy-o is VEWY OFFENDED and insulted. Shamey wamey on YOU, you pablum-puking self righteous asshole!! I'll bet you have smoking a LOT of :m:
You are so bright I have to wear shades. I think your post will be one the more interesting ones to watch out for.

Originally posted by Adam
The only Jew-bashing I've seen is from YKJ, who seems to be joking, and from GB, who is Jewish I believe.

...hopefully by which you meant to imply that I'm joking as well.

I'm not actually Jewish, ie, I don't follow the religion, but you could say I am a child of Israel, especially because my mother is Jewish. The only person on her side that *wasn't* Jewish was her paternal grandmother, but that wouldn't count. Nyah.

Yes, sorry GB, I should have said that. Your posts about Israel and such are generally either comedic and/or political.

Why Jew-Bashing?

I am not a Jew, I know Jews and have been several times in Israel. I have never ask myself do I like them or not, I suppose because in judgment such a condition doesn’t normally exist.

One upon a time I was puzzle by that same question. Wherever I search for information,
it appeared that the entire world had something against Jews, even from biblical times.
They have been thrown from dozens of countries, abused and mistreated by many cultures.
I have asked Jews that same question, is it that the entire world is wrong? Why is it, that in the history of Jews, no nation ever came into their defense during incident of deportation from European countries??

I still don’t have an exact answer because it is a complex question, but so far it appears that their sense of been the “chosen” ones, their believe of been superior, perfect and more intelligent than other cultures, have always been a starting point in most historical incidents.

Government and societies first gave them their own space, the Jews turned into their own state protecting their own, no matter what, and combining inner synergy to self-sustain without necessity for interaction with host societies. Only Jews are allowed into the inner circles of Jews.

This behavior is not a crime, but certainly the perfect recipe to become popular

Something interesting about Jews that I always notice and challenge when I’m in Israel.

A catholic would normally devote a thanks prayer before supper. The Jews would also devote a similar practice, ….but at the end of the supper.

When I ask them their reason for doing it afterwards. The most popular response I get is in the lines…..

It is ridiculous to thanks God for something that you haven’t taste or had!!

Originally posted by 1119
I am not a Jew. I have never met a Jew.

The reason I ask this is because based on what I've seen thus far, this board is quite tolerant of Jew-bashing. Members are quick to react if someone makes a racist or anti-American remarks but when it comes to Jew-bashing, it's pretty much free-for-all.

I also have a related question to ask: if a thread is started with the sole purpose of expressing hatred for an ethnic group, should it be removed/closed? Members' opinion? Moderator's?

---Do the above quotes made by none other than you yourself alone suffice to answer your very own question?

Does it offend you when and if someone differs in opinion from 1119 almighty?

Brother, I think you might be a bit lethargic in the thinking department. Know what I mean? :m: :m: :m: :m: :m: :confused:

Originally posted by 1119
I have never met a Jew.Er... how do you know?

:M: Peace.

The reason I ask this is because based on what I've seen thus far, this board is quite tolerant of Jew-bashing. Members are quick to react if someone makes a racist or anti-American remarks but when it comes to Jew-bashing, it's pretty much free-for-all.

show me! do a thorough job! (13,646 threads)
everybody gets bashed here. this is a very enlightened board!


ps: jews dont do the knee jerk free for all. they just withdraw your line of credit and its the soup kitchen for you!

There's a difference between Jew-bashing and bashing Judaism (although some will point out that a Jew is someone too clueless to leave behind Judaism, and I have no answer to that).

Judaism is psychotic, racist, xenophobic AND was the birth of Christianity.

If that isn't the kiss of death there, nothing is.

prozak is our resident kike hater! we still love the little freak tho!

Originally posted by prozak

Judaism is psychotic, racist, xenophobic AND was the birth of Christianity.



weak!


:D

I agree: Christianity/Judaism are weak excuses for spiritual systems.

Have you heard about the new Jewish car? It stops on a dime, then turns around and picks it up.

Have you heard about the new Judeo-Christian car? After picking up the dime, it secularizes and, transferring 2% of that dime to charities generates an income shield for its new stock options portfolio.

megametrix - that you quote my entire opening post to answer my questions makes me wonder who is the one lethargic in the thinking department. And no, it doesn't offend me if someone differs in opinion. But by the angst shown in your post, you seem to have trouble with it.

spookz - if thus far, none of the threads has struck you as singling Jews out, than it's probaby my naivity that is at fault. For that, I believe I have already apologised.

goofyfish - the odds of someone living in a pre-dominantly muslim Southeast Asia country meeting and interacting with a Jew is extremely low, especially when my government is not a Zionist-friendly one. Also, in my line of work and given my social circle, I have very little interactions with foreigners, let alone caucasians. And none of them are of Jewish origin.

i wish i was a jew. their intellectual ability is simply the tops! besides, jewish girls are kinda hot too!


1119

it has been a useful topic
thanks!

Originally posted by 1119
goofyfish - the odds of someone living in a pre-dominantly muslim Southeast Asia country meeting and interacting with a Jew is extremely low, especially when my government is not a Zionist-friendly one.So, at this stage of your argument, it is unlikely, but still possible...Also, in my line of work and given my social circle, I have very little interactions with foreigners, let alone caucasians.Not all Jews are caucasion so, at this stage of your argument, it is unlikely, but still possible...And none of them are of Jewish origin.So I ask again, how do you know for certain? Especially if you are not in a "Zionist-friendly" environment, perhaps you have met Jewish people that chose not to announce the fact.

:m: Peace.

mo money mo problems?

http://www.detnews.com/2003/nation/0301/10/nation-57093.htm

Remember that when you drop your next XTC pill in the name of love and peace that you could be financing Likud :p indirectly through underworld syndicate.

Goofyfish - you have a point. The only caucasians that I aquainted with are a Brit, a Canadian and an American. We had free discussions and from what they've disclosed, none of them had Jewish blood. One of them had Dutch and the other Irish I think. But if they had Jewish blood but chose not to disclose it, then I wouldn't know.

True. Not all Jewish are caucasians. Aside from caucasians, the only other foreigners that are around a lot are workers from Bangladesh and Indonesia. Now unless there are many Bangladesh Jews or Indonesian Jews...

But it's like you say. It's unlikely but possible.

how cool 1119.
somewhere, at one time or another, you might have met a jew. do you not feel so much wiser now?

;)

1119-- You noted that i quoted a lot of your post. And that is correctly noted. I did this because you asked where you had said that "someone should be kicked off the board for being 'non-PC'". Inasmuch as you ***deny, deny again, and deny some more, i decided to SHOW your own words not only EXACTLY as you had said thus but also provided the context in which you had uttered them, lest complain over that as well...***

Thoughtfully yours,
--Megametrix


Moderator Edit

some might claim they are gods chosen people and because we are not, we are THE DEVIL and we are bashing the jews because of our inherent evil.

i think not. i don't think people pay out the jews much at all, much less than balcks or asians in my country(Oz).

Truth is nobody can spot a jew, sure some people you can but you can never be 100% sure until they say they are a Jewish person. SOOOOOOOO they rarely, if ever are subjected to any puyblic villification, none that would amount to the same prejudice so many others experience. It's been blown out of proportion and this thread is just another step in that blowing out of proportion.

No self-respecting Jewish person would think he is less of a person cos' somebody says he's tight with money or that he has a big nose.

It's like water off a ducks back.

for the conspiracy pm me.

I have never met a Jew.

I am Rip Van Winkle, please someone wake me up ...

Well, historically, I blame Christians.

As Christianity arose from Judaism, the first thing it did was separate itself from the Jews. (Incidentally, the second thing they did was go after pagans, and the third was to go after other Christians.) Various apologists appealed to the Romans, pointing out that they--the Christians--were much better than those dirty Jews. By the time we reach the present day, it's pretty much a cultural habit.

Most anti-Semitism stems from one form or another of cultural denial. Like Jews and money. Sure, a lot of Jews have money, and work in money-moving fields. This is a cultural holdover from the days when Jews weren't allowed to own property, and their only real financial opportunities came from finance itself.

It's just an acquired behavior in many people to hate Jews.

But it started with the Christians.

If anyone cares, a suggested reading list:

- Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satan (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679731180/qid=1043309260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7849404-1634417?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). Vintage, 1996.

- Staniforth, Maxwell (trans.) Early Christian Writings: The Apostolic Fathers (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-7849404-1634417). New York: Penguin, 1987.

Both are short books. But Staniforth is, unfortunately, dry. It's not his fault; the source material is just that way. Dry comes with the territory when you're reading translations of the early Christian establishment. Pagels is a much better read, and a frequent recommendation of mine.

In both, themes of hostility toward Jews is apparent. For Pagels, the task at hand is to show how the idea of Satan developed in the early church. The essential thing here is that those who stood with the Devil were, at various points, Jews, Pagans, and then other Christians. I think she does a good job of establishing the historical context in which this transition took place.

I could, if I can find my copy of Staniforth, just cough up the table of contents, as I'm sure all of the material is available at New Advent (http://www.newadvent.org). From memory ... Clement, Bishop of Rome; Ignatius of Antioch; a couple of others; the Didache; and then come some apologists. It's the apologists who really sting. Some, like Justin Martyr (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm), wage seemingly legitimate complaints, such as an accusation that Barchochebas, the leader of the Jewish revolt, called for harsh punishment of Christians lest they renounce Christ. So it is by necessity that Christians begin separating themselves from Jews; they realized that they cannot pretend to be Jewish and continue to--in the eyes of many Jews--blaspheme. And so the separation begins with a vengeance. The Epistle of Barnabas (http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0124.htm), for instance, lays a holy torch to the Jews:CHAPTER V.--THE NEW COVENANT, FOUNDED ON THE SUFFERINGS OF CHRIST, TENDS TO OUR SALVATION, BUT TO THE JEWS' DESTRUCTION.

For to this end the Lord endured to deliver up His flesh to corruption, that we might be sanctified through the remission of sins, which is effected by His blood of sprinkling. For it is written concerning Him, partly with reference to Israel, and partly to us; and [the Scripture] saith thus: "He was wounded for our transgressions, and braised for our iniquities: with His stripes we are healed. He was brought as a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb which is dumb before its shearer." Therefore we ought to be deeply grateful to the Lord, because He has both made known to us things that are past, and hath given us wisdom concerning things present, and hath not left us without understanding in regard to things which are to come. Now, the Scripture saith, "Not unjustly are nets spread out for birds." This means that the man perishes justly, who, having a knowledge of the way of righteousness, rushes off into the way of darkness. And further, my brethren: if the Lord endured to suffer for our soul, He being Lord of all the world, to whom God said at the foundation of the world, "Let us make man after our image, and after our likeness," understand how it was that He endured to suffer at the hand of men. The prophets, having obtained grace from Him, prophesied concerning Him. And He (since it behoved Him to appear in flesh), that He might abolish death, and reveal the resurrection from the dead, endured [what and as He did], in order that He might fulfill the promise made unto the fathers, and by preparing a new people for Himself, might show, while He dwelt on earth, that He, when He has raised mankind, will also judge them. Moreover, teaching Israel, and doing so great miracles and signs, He preached [the truth] to him, and greatly loved him. But when He chose His own apostles who where to preach His Gospel, [He did so from among those] who were sinners above all sin, that He might show He came "not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Then He manifested Himself to be the Son of God. For if He had not come in the flesh, how could men have been saved by beholding Him? Since looking upon the sun which is to cease to exist, and is the work of His hands, their eyes are not able to bear his rays. The Son of God therefore came in the flesh with this view, that He might bring to a head the sum of their sins who had persecuted His prophets to the death. For this purpose, then, He endured. For God saith, "The stroke of his flesh is from them;" and "when I shall smite the Shepherd, then the sheep of the flock shall be scattered." He himself willed thus to suffer, for it was necessary that He should suffer on the tree. For says he Who prophesies regarding Him, "Spare my soul from the sword, fasten my flesh with nails; for the assemblies of the wicked have risen up against me." And again he says, "Behold, I have given my back to scourges, and my cheeks to strokes, and I have set my countenance as a firm rock."° The whole of Barnabas is shockingly anti-Jewish. In psychological terms, I would even go so far as to speculate that in addition to being a petty appeal to the Romans for acceptance, it was also the author's own self-affirmation of the fact that he is not a Jew, and in fact a Christian. But that's not anything I can support, except for the hideously desperate tone of it. But this period of separation and backlash for persecution sparked a vengeful ... well, we still suffer its effects today.° There exists an ugly anti-Semitism today in the West that is hereditary and traditional. It's been passed down ever since Christians first recognized that it just wasn't feasible to call themselves Jews and began a necessary separation.

I will be happy to expand from there if people don't know the sorts of things that come next, over the following, oh, 1800 years. ° But I hadn't intended to bore the lot of you for this long, anyway, so I'll hush for now.

Notes:

° Barnabas ch. 5--I apologize for the long quotation. This post is a bit of a nostalgia trip for me as well. I was, at first, going to include four chapters (2-5) but in the end that seemed ridiculous. I chose this one for sensationalism, but this whole document is amazing.

°_suffer its effects today--Nobody is denying events in the occupied Palestine. (I use that term for a specific point right now.) So we kind of understand why Muslims are pissed at the occupiers. And humans being human, we can somewhat speculate how that spreads to cover all Jews. The point being that, if you look at the disasters of the Jews in the Old Testament, well--In an historical comparison, doesn't it seem as if the ass-whooping the Israelis are taking from the Muslims should indicate that God is a little bit pissed at Israeli Jews? I'm not one to lay the whole problem at the occupiers' feet, but they certainly haven't done much to help their own case, and much to harm it. We can all understand how a ferociously-persecuted people would fiercely protect what they have, but this ain't the Old World.

° 1800--I draw this line because the 19th century saw an influx of Jews to the United States. Without intending any chest-thumping, I think it's fair to say that the US changed a few things about the paradigm of "culture". One of the things it didn't change about culture was hostility toward Jews. But the thitherto unique nature of the nation made traditional forms of institutonal anti-Semitism much more difficult. The people didn't warm up for a while, though. And they still haven't thawed entirely toward the idea of Jews. Anti-Semitism is well and alive today despite the contributions made to our present comfort in this country by people who just happened to be Jewish.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Well, historically, I blame Christians.

As Christianity arose from Judaism, the first thing it did was separate itself from the Jews. (Incidentally, the second thing they did was go after pagans, and the third was to go after other Christians.) .

But it started with the Christians.

If anyone cares, a suggested reading list:

- Pagels, Elaine. The Origin of Satan (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0679731180/qid=1043309260/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_1/002-7849404-1634417?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). Vintage, 1996.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Ah, a comment from one of Sciforums resident Christian-bashers, as if you were the final authority on all things christian! You just happen to be the most long-winded! (Or is it long-worded?)

If you check the history of jews, you would see that it was jews that tried to wipe out early christians, see narratives about Saul of Tarsus (& his friends), before he became Paul and James the Just (the brother of Jesus).

Jews started to get kicked around by many pagan peoples; Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks & the very pagan Romans, who threw jews out of Palestine in 2 waves, after revolts in 70 AD & 134AD. They were not immune to the power struggles between empires then or now.

As for past & current discrimination by so-called christians, there is NO excuse, if they don't understand that we are only a grafted branch on judaism, them they do not understand christianity at all (check the Bible if you don't believe me).

Today jews still get kicked around in muslim (as a result on how they treat muslim Palestinians) & Western (as a result of tribal-xenophobic tendencies by post-christians?) countries.

Originally posted by Randolfo
(check the Bible if you don't believe me)Except that in this forum, the Bible is about as credible as the National Enquirer.

:m: Peace.

Originally posted by goofyfish
Except that in this forum, the Bible is about as credible as the National Enquirer.

:m: Peace. WHAT!!!!

No way, the NE is the tops, just ask Mr. Jones of Men in Black, he knows the score!!!

Originally posted by 1119
I am not a Jew. I have never met a Jew. I am no Jew-lover. I am nobody-lover. I just have this one question: Can someone tell me why there is so much hatred for Jews?

Good question, but you should ask people that really are jew-bashers, like neo-nazis. Or even jews themselves, like the Anti-Defamation League for answers, I think all people are somewhat xenophobic, probably as a result of our tribal background that translates as nationalism now.

Let me ask a general question, do any of you marry, like or hang out with other nationalities, ethnic groups? or just your kind, if they are 'other', do 'they' share cultural or other values with you?

If you are talking about the Israel-Palestine & Jewish-muslim clashes & debates, well this is a free public forum, & everybody is entitled to an opinion, even if it’s wrong.

I believe Israel does not have a right to Palestinian land, not in 1948 or now, because you can not take land from a people on a 2 thousand year-old claim, what happens to the Palestinians? What would you do if it was you? You would do what Palestinians do, fight anyway you can! Does that opinion make me an anti-semite? I don’t think so!

And my question is, if jews can do that for Palestine, can Native Peoples do that for the Americas? I mean, the claim is only 500 years old, & they're still here!!! Who should move? & why?

And since this forum is open to all; jews, muslims, christians, anti- this or anti-that, I would expect people to stand up for themselves & they usually do! Hi Elbaz & Agent!!!