When I said that I was "Agnostic no more," I meant it. I seriously do believe in a higher power. Now I think that the time has come for me to explain why I decided to believe in God. This post is a little long so I will understand if you only read the parts that interest you. I will try to answer everyones questions, but I think that I will have many responses.:) Here we go:

1. The Theory of Evolution:

Evolution can be proven. There are facts to support it, and it is a possibility that we did evolve from Apes. So this is what I think God did. God made man, except it wasn't man. It was an ape, for God time is not relative. So before God knew it the First Human had been born. All because he/she wasn't paying attention.

And about the Dinos, creatures like that are described in the Bible. Plus whose to say that apes were the first thing that God made?

2. Purple Squid Monkey:

First of all science says that it is impossible for such a thing to exist. But humans are not evolved enough to know that God doesn't exist. When science can reveal that God never existed in the first place I will become an atheist. In the meantime I have decided to have faith in the unknown, which I believe to be God.

3. The Big Bang:

I support the Big Bang theory the most out of all of these theories. What better way to move a mountain then to blast it with Dynamite? So God, in an attempt to be efficient, created a huge explosion that is still going on today. That's when some of the evolution stuff kicked in. God didn't create every little particle he made the general stuff; apes, dirt, water, and the universe with one big bang.

4. Faith and Science:

From my understand (thanks to a certain atheist) having faith in science is different then having faith in God. I understand this and support it. As long as you have faith (not a belief) in something your good to go.

5. Faith Healing, Evangelists, Miracles, and Praying:

Faith healing is fake, no one can do that except God. Evangelists are a result of something that wasn't intended, I refuse to call someone a heathen just because they don't believe in God. Miracles may or may not exist, they might happen... How would you know if a miracle had occurred?

I will pray to God because it makes me feel good, that and he doesn't interrupt me while Im talking. :)

6. God is all knowing so he already knows whose going to heaven and whose not:

Errr. No. This is where the bible screws up. God is all knowing but somehow I doubt he knows how many blades of grass are on my front lawn, and that he probably doesn't care about how many blades of grass there are, just that there is grass.

God doesn't know whose going where and why until you get to heaven (or whatever it might be). The reason for this is because if God made everything then he would know that he had already created the universe, created man, and done all of this other stuff before he did it. So what was the point in doing that? He cannot be all knowing (note: I am not at the point where I can fully explain this without confusing myself and everyone else)

7. The Age of The Universe:

Through carbon dating and other means we can see how old the universe/earth is. These cant be disproved, it is scientific fact. But what if I told you that to God time wasn't relative? What if this morning when God woke up (if he does sleep) the Crusades had just ended, and when he went to bed all that Hitler crap was happening? To God time is not relative. If God made everything then its very thought provoking that maybe he took up those first few billion years making other civilizations.

I hope that Ive answered all of the really interesting questions that Ive been asked. And that Ive answered them in a clear way that you can understand. Science is never at fault, God is never at fault, humans are never at fault, but its through understanding that we will find the truth.

Whoever you are and whatever you believe in I wish you the best of luck finding out the truth for yourself. Thank you for reading this. Oh and Vote for me, if you want.

Counsler Coffee

Who knows?! *shrugs* none of us!

explain why I decided to believe in God.
Don't take this the wrong way, but I look at you as an agnostic who got lazy (not meant to be insulting). No one DECIDES to believe in God or not. An idea is not something the mind posesses, an idea is something that posesses the mind.
But humans are not evolved enough to know that God doesn't exist.
Or have any reason to think he does (though I agree he/it may, another agnostic :D )
As long as you have faith (not a belief) in something your good to go
BOOOOOOO! :mad:
refuse to call someone a heathen just because they don't believe in God.
Good, then my respect for you can carry over in to your new beliefs.
I will pray to God because it makes me feel good, that and he doesn't interrupt me while Im talking
Exactly...
So what was the point in doing that?
I ask myself that question alot when God comes in to the picture...
Whoever you are and whatever you believe in I wish you the best of luck finding out the truth for yourself.
I'm glad to see you still have your acceptance and tollerance! Sad to lose you, lol.

I don't mean to be offensive but it sounds to me as if you simply modified your conception of God to fit the facts. Given such a flexible definition, the concept becomes irrefutable. But I would not call it logic. I would also say that it seems to be more of an excuse that allows you to not disbelieve in God than a reason to believe in God. Why bother with the assertion?

~Raithere

I don't mean to be offensive but it sounds to me as if you simply modified your conception of God to fit the facts.

Is there something wrong with that? I mean if Im to believe in God then I need proof, I got proof. It makes perfect logical sense to me.

I would also say that it seems to be more of an excuse that allows you to not disbelieve in God than a reason to believe in God. Why bother with the assertion?

I believe in God. Plain and simple. My statements merely prove to me that I think that he exists.

Don't take this the wrong way, but I look at you as an agnostic who got lazy (not meant to be insulting). No one DECIDES to believe in God or not. An idea is not something the mind posesses, an idea is something that posesses the mind.

Notme2000,

I got tired of the never ending debate. I decided that I would review all of the facts/evidence and make up my mind. And I reached the conclusion that God does exist.

BOOOOOOO!

Sorry. I would rather a atheist have faith in something then no faith. Thats what I meant by that statement.

I'm glad to see you still have your acceptance and tollerance! Sad to lose you, lol.

Thanks. Wait until people like Xev, Adam, and all the other atheist read my first post. One of two things will happen. They will either laugh or call me a moron, or both.

No one DECIDES to believe in God or not. An idea is not something the mind posesses, an idea is something that posesses the mind.

Perhaps that is the difference between the atheist and the theist. That beliefs are that much more malleable and subservient to desires.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by CounslerCoffee
Thanks. Wait until people like Xev, Adam, and all the other atheist read my first post. One of two things will happen. They will either laugh or call me a moron, or both.

Try not to worry about what people think of you, those are just bully tactics. Bullies have the biggest problems. :D

Love

Jan Ardena.

"I don't mean to be offensive but it sounds to me as if you simply modified your conception of God to fit the facts. Given such a flexible definition, the concept becomes irrefutable. But I would not call it logic."
----------------------

All knowledge cannot be ascertained by logic and experiment. There are many things that exist that cannot be quantified, tested in some lab or put in a jar. Raithere, my friend, being ever-intelligent as you are, you certainly know this by now. ;-)

><>

+++Evolution can be proven. There are facts to support it, and it is a possibility that we did evolve from Apes. So this is what I think God did. God made man, except it wasn't man. It was an ape, for God time is not relative. So before God knew it the First Human had been born. All because he/she wasn't paying attention. +++

the problem with accepting evolution is of course that we didn't descended only from apes, but also from fish and even further down the line from some kind of unicellular organisms.

You would then have to say, god didn't creat man...he didn't creat apes, he didn't create fish, he didn't create any animal or plant (unless you want to believe he created the very first one).

would you be willing to accept this?
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

would you be willing to accept this?
---------------------------

I am not sure who you are asking this of, however if it is me, I am currently discussing this topic in detail on another thread in the Biology/Genetics section of this site.

><>

i'm quite confident that we have descended from a single cellular organism..yes.

http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

Yes, God is aware of evrything - every hair on your head, so to speak. And since God is not limited by human thoughts, it is up to Him to know your deapest fears and secrets. The Bible teaches that God does care and does take close interest. If you accept divine law, then any less than death is mercy. Adam & Eve, whoever they were, had been shown mercy, and we have been shown mercy ever since. Once you realise you should actually have been dead, life gets new meaning - whether you derive that realisation from the Bible, a near-death experience, or from somewhere else doesn't matter.

And God created. Full stop. He did not mention every bug and variety of grass in the Bible, yet obviously they were created. I also think the kind of evolution we witness everywhere has been a tool that God has and still is using. As Coffee said: God is not limited to time, an He wanted to create life, not chairs. hence, evolving life - more alive than any one generation can be on its own.

Adam and Eve became human, sentient in God's image, only when He breathed his spirit into them. Neanderthals were probably as advanced as any animal could be without knowledge of God. I wonder, is there any evidence of prehistoric religion? That would be an interesting study.

Whatever the reason - God chose homo sapiens, just like He chose Israel, just like He calls everybody to be His chosen today. In the end, God knows who will be with Him and who will be against Him, but He gives us time to decide for ourselves - He gave us the choice as well. Live with that...

undecide
poor misguided boy

[COLOR=blue]

I dont think someone could just suddenly believe in God like that.
I agree with the statement made by someone in the earlier posts saying that it's not something that you decide on. Believing in a higher power is something you have to feel in your heart and be consciouos of its awareness. To me, you have altered your scientific views to fit in a belief in God. It's not that simple.

As far as myself, I believe there is a unifying element that connects and maintains order in the universe and creation. I dont believe in God in a christian sense. I just believe that there is an unifying element in the universe that creates and maintains balance.

Besides, I dont think human beings were meant to fully understand everything about the universe because its impossible.
every religion has their own view on the origins of the universe and maintain just like science has theories about the origins of the universe. A theory is a possible explanation for an event or a phenomenom. When these theories are accepted, they become true until someone comes up with a better theory. I guess the thing science and religion have in common is the search for absolute truth and understanding. Science wants to know what happened and how, where as, religion/spirituality asks why did it happen this way and what part to we play. We could have a billion theories and religious saying this is how this happened and such... but it want help us find the absolute truth about everything. Albert Einstein spent the rest of live wanting to understand everything about the laws and mysteries of the universe. But he couldnt. The best thing we could do is get close to the truth. Not absolute truth. Thats where I'm just in a state of awe and amazement about the universe and human existence.

Originally posted by inspector
All knowledge cannot be ascertained by logic and experiment. There are many things that exist that cannot be quantified, tested in some lab or put in a jar. Raithere, my friend, being ever-intelligent as you are, you certainly know this by now.Most of the time I feel it is actually a matter of finding the correct jar, so to speak. But yes, I agree that there are some things that may intrinsically defy our understanding. However, I simply categorize these things as unknown or unknowable and am comfortable with that. I am not comfortable with inventing an explanation such as God to simply be a bin for conceptual odds-and-ends. Nor do I think the unknown can be construed as evidence for God… if it is unknown how can we assert anything about it?

~Raithere

Raithere, if that is a picture of you under your user name, man, you need a shave. ;-)



"However, I simply categorize these things as unknown or unknowable and am comfortable with that."
-----------------------

So, you have faith that these things are just unknown and simply haven't been explained in humanistic, naturalistic vernacular yet? Raithere, my friend, I cannot understand how an apparently intelligent individual such as yourself can hold such unintelligent thoughts. However, I guess you feel the same way about Christians, also.




"Nor do I think the unknown can be construed as evidence for God…"
-------------------------

Obviously, this is a subjective, opinionated statement. Therefore, conversely, I can equally claim that the unknown cannot be dismissed as evidence in favor of God either.

><>

Is there something wrong with that? I mean if Im to believe in God then I need proof, I got proof. It makes perfect logical sense to me.
Thing is, it's no longer God you believe in. Just a representation of every un-answered question. So why should the answer to every un-asnwered question be God when he's not the answer to any of the already answered questions?
I got tired of the never ending debate.
So you got tired of the never ending debate and *POOF* God started existing?
I would rather a atheist have faith in something then no faith
Athiests have faith in the truth, none in what they think the truth is. So no matter how many times evidence forces them to change their view on the universe, they will. Faith in anything but the truth, ie: faith in a predetermined truth, is just foolish.

Let me put it this way. Had you not gotten tired of the never ending debate, and realized that truth will ALWAYS be open to debate, would you still believe whole-heartedly in a God?

Thing is, it's no longer God you believe in. Just a representation of every un-answered question. So why should the answer to every un-asnwered question be God when he's not the answer to any of the already answered questions?

Stop twisting my words, please. I dont think that you understand.

God is not the answer to the unanswered questions. I merely attempted to piece evolution together to show how God exist. Or how the age of the universe could prove God. I guess I should of used the words "Questions from atheist" I should of use "Statements from atheists and how God can fit with them."



So you got tired of the never ending debate and *POOF* God started existing?

Listen. Before when I was agnostic I wasnt sure about God. Not I am. I dont see how you can just say "POOF" I came to the conclusion slowly that God exists, not just suddenly POOF. Read the thread "Agnostic no more"

Coffee

All of your reasons for believing in God are highly personal, and they work for you. Good for ya, even if I don't agree with them and find some of them utterly nonsensical (but I won't get into that... you've got enough people posting at you). But if I may say so, I find that most people create 'logic' to fit their pre-conceived notions about things, rather than actually thinking things through. Which is it for you?

As long as you stick to what you've decided on, and it substantially makes your life better in the long run, you can safely start feeling good about it. The real test is when some disaster comes, and how well you deal with it.

I see nothing wrong with Coffee's decision. At one point I had a little personal religion of my own, which was so utterly bizarre I don't even remember what it was. Hey, there are some people who worship the purple potato king...:D

__________________________________________
There is no god, afterlife or divine love. There is only Entropy, the mother from which we were all born. She tugs our souls with the beautiful, maternal love of chaos. Why do you keep Her waiting?

Counsler,

Your reasoning is not very solid, and I suspect you know that, at least I hope you do. Your real reason, IMHO, which you may not quite yet have grasped, is that you have been looking for an excuse to believe in a god. That is fine, I take the same approach for many of my life experiences. When I am not sure about something I tend to commit to it just to try it out and see if it has any value. And it helps if you can afford it and yes I have lost a lot of money on things that definitely did not work out. But for many things in life there is no way to evaluate something without actually trying it. Committing yourself to a theistic experience seems like the best way to obtain a ‘feel’ for the issues from a different perspective. For example, you can describe sex as much as you like, but until you try it you will have no idea what it is really like.

So go for it and learn. I did the same thing when I was 16 and then became an atheist 5 years later, and that was 30 years ago.

Coffee, once again I applaud your intelligent decision. Your rewards are eternal and will far outweigh any torment or subjective, naturalistic propaganda delivered by those who are lost. Contact me via PM if you would like any assistance in your journey.

><>

i always find it strange that somehow for christians the christian god is the true one...and for muslims allah is the true one...for some people the sungod might be the right one etc etc...how do you people choose your gods? and how do you know you chose the right one?
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

The Bible defines what is true and states that those who fall outside certain parameters of doctrine are false. Christians are only repeating and teaching people what God has already stated about truth.

><>

...Just like every other religion and their God... :bugeye:

"...Just like every other religion and their God..."
-----------------

Really? Every other religion? Wow........Can you provide for us specific examples of other religions, along with their basic tenets, and provide a comparison chart demonstrating the differences between the essential doctrines of these other religions and Christianity, please? We'll be waiting.

><>

Originally posted by spuriousmonkey
i always find it strange that somehow for christians the christian god is the true one...and for muslims allah is the true one...for some people the sungod might be the right one etc etc...how do you people choose your gods? and how do you know you chose the right one?
http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

Dunno, they just seem to be very self-assured that only they will be 'saved' and everyone else is doomed to eternal torture.

Originally posted by inspector
The Bible defines what is true and states that those who fall outside certain parameters of doctrine are false. Christians are only repeating and teaching people what God has already stated about truth.

><>

Inspector, the only thing I find worthwhile about this post is your enthusiasm for your own religion. But everything else is misguided.

A person who starts out with the assumption that his/her beliefs are superior to everyone else's detracts from, defames, and insults their own organization. A religion should be for personal growth and sense of community only, and not for advertisement of one's faith.

Originally posted by inspector
"...Just like every other religion and their God..."
-----------------

Really? Every other religion? Wow........Can you provide for us specific examples of other religions, along with their basic tenets, and provide a comparison chart demonstrating the differences between the essential doctrines of these other religions and Christianity, please? We'll be waiting.

><>

We don't even need that. Bring in the holy books from each religion. Are you that blind, inspector?

"A religion should be for personal growth and sense of community only, and not for advertisement of one's faith."
---------------------------

This simply demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding Christianity. A Christian believes that God exists for many reasons, however, a sense of community is more of a sociological need than a benefit for believing in God. A Christian believes for reasons such as forgiveness of sins, salvation, grace, eternal life, peace and so on.

><>

Originally posted by inspector
Raithere, if that is a picture of you under your user name, man, you need a shave.Actually, that's the great and powerful Tim the Enchanter.

So, you have faith that these things are just unknown and simply haven't been explained in humanistic, naturalistic vernacular yet? Not quite... I accept that there are things that will probably never be known. What's unintelligent about that?

Obviously, this is a subjective, opinionated statement. Therefore, conversely, I can equally claim that the unknown cannot be dismissed as evidence in favor of God either.Well, I disagree that it is subjective and opinionated, it's simply logical. But I do agree that the proof for God could possibly exist in what is yet unknown.

~Raithere

Originally posted by inspector
"A religion should be for personal growth and sense of community only, and not for advertisement of one's faith."
---------------------------

This simply demonstrates your lack of knowledge regarding Christianity. A Christian believes that God exists for many reasons, however, a sense of community is more of a sociological need than a benefit for believing in God. A Christian believes for reasons such as forgiveness of sins, salvation, grace, eternal life, peace and so on.

><> Hi you all. I'd like to point out that this only applies to Christians. Objective judgement of one's own religion is impossible and I must say that a religion must indeed not be flaunted in the form of proselytization(did I get it right?).

Really? Every other religion? Wow........Can you provide for us specific examples of other religions, along with their basic tenets, and provide a comparison chart demonstrating the differences between the essential doctrines of these other religions and Christianity, please? We'll be waiting.
All I'm saying is that every religion will say "Ya, we're right cause our teachings say so..." Just doesn't seem very sensible to me. I'm not asking you to prove God's existance to me. I'm not asking you to change your religion. All I'm asking is that you acknowledge the fact that every religion claims they're right, and all do so with certainty... This means yours is just as likely wrong as theirs...

(And if you reply with bible quotes you're only proving my point)

Really? Every other religion? Wow........Can you provide for us specific examples of other religions, along with their basic tenets, and provide a comparison chart demonstrating the differences between the essential doctrines of these other religions and Christianity, please? We'll be waiting.

*brain implodes*

I'm not even touching this one. Have fun, guys.

The Golden Rule

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, for this is
the law and the prophets.
-Christianity

What is hurtful to yourself do not to your fellow man. That is the
whole of the Torah and the remainder is but commentary.
-Judaism

Do unto all men as you would wish to have done unto you; and
reject for others what you would reject for yourselves.
-Islam

Hurt not others with that which pains yourself.
-Buddhism

Tzu-Kung asked: "Is there one principle upon which one's whole
life may proceed?" The Master replied, "Is not Reciprocity such a
principle?---what you do not yourself desire, do not put before
others."
-Confucianism

This is the sum of all true righteousness---
Treat others, as thou wouldst thyself be
treated
Do nothing to they neighbor, which
hereafter
Thou wouldst not have thy neighbor do to thee.
-Hinduism

Man Is Created In God's Image

God created man in His own image, in the image of God created
He him.
-Judaism

The individual soul is nothing else in essence that universal soul.
-Hinduism

On God's own nature has been molded man's.
-Islam

God is concealed in every heart; his light is in every heart.
-Sikhism

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that Spirit of God
dwelleth in you?
-Christianity

A Man Is Known By His Deeds, Not By His Religion

God will not ask a man of what race he is. He will ask what he
has done.
-Sikhism

God will render to every man according to his deeds.
-Christianity

A man asked Muhammad how to tell when one is truly faithful,
and he replied: "If you derive pleasure from good which you
do and are grieved by the evil which you commit, then you are
a true believer."
-Islam

But I say unto you: deeds of love are worth as much as all the
commandments of the law.
-Judaism

No brahmin is a brahmin by birth.
No outcaste is an outcaste by birth.
An outcaste is an outcaste by his deeds.
A brahmin is a brahmin by deeds.
-Buddhism

There Is One God

"There is one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through
all, and in you all."
-Christianity

"Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us?"
-Judaism

"He is the one God hidden in all beings, all-pervading, the Self
within all beings, watching over all worlds, dwelling in all beings,
the witness, the perceiver."
-Hinduism

Remember even when alone that the divine is everywhere.
-Confucianism

There is but one God whose name is true. He is the creator,
immortal, unborn, self-existent.
-Sikhism

Source: Oneness: Great Principles Shared
By All Religions By Jeffrey Moses

Originally posted by Zero
advertisement of one's faith.
Wouldn't that be considered proselytizing?

"This means yours is just as likely wrong as theirs..."
--------------------------

Another possibility would be that Christianity is true and many others are false. It is noteworthy to mention that Christianity is the only religion that addresses the problem of sin, through the redemptive process of grace alone. You must realize that Christianity, by definition, says that all other systems are false. It is not that it is "superior" the way you apparently try and connect it with arrogance. It is simply that it is true and saying so doesn't mean we are superior or arrogant in attitude. It is superior because it is true. Jesus, who claimed to be God in flesh (John 8:24,58; 10:30-33; Exod. 3:14, cf, John 20:28; Col. 2:9; Heb. 1:6,8), said that He was the only way to God the Father (John 14:6; Matt. 11:27). We Christians believe Him. (Uh-oh, did I just quote from that mythical book, again?)

Pride in a person is something God does not want. The attitude of arrogant superiority in a person is not what God wants, either. But, that does not change the fact that Christianity is, by nature, superior to all other systems -- since it alone represents the true God as manifested in Christ. Being true, it is therefore superior by nature, but that does not mean that it is inconsistent with itself since being true does not mean that those who believe it is superior are being prideful. Pride is something in people. Christianity is the historical revelation and manifestation of Jesus who claimed to be God, walked on water, healed people, rose from the dead, etc. This occurred in history. For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems.

Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not. Though there are similarities in other systems, Christianity is unique in its scope, evidence, soteriology, and theology.

><>

For me to say it is true and to believe it is true over all other systems does not make me arrogant anymore than you, an atheist, believe that your atheism is true, and therefore superior, over all religious systems
I would agree with you except that I am technically agnositc, therefore all I "believe" in is that no one really knows... But your point was made.

I won't ask you for proof of all the socalled miracles, inspector, because I know that'll lead to yet another stupid god exists/does not exist battle thread. Last thing I want.

No one can make a claim that a religion has to be true for everyone. One can only claim that a religion is true for her/him only, and that should really be the reason to believe in it. The former view leads to the useless "crusades" to "enlighten" the "heathens" and much proselytizing. Which is messed up.

Originally posted by inspector
Another possibility would be that Christianity is true and many others are false.Upon what basis should one decide which is true and which are false?

~Raithere

Originally posted by inspector
Furthermore, Christianity teaches a Trinitarian God which all other religious systems do not (contra modalism, tritheism, etc). Christianity teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, which all other religious systems do not.
><>

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

The bible(and christians) seems to confused about this, how should I be saved from the firey cauldrons of hell?

by simply believing that Christ died for your sins. having faith.


easy, huh?? no good works will get you into heaven. it's nice to do good deeds...but, they will not gain you entrance.

And James 2:24?

the first post listed some points going against for instance the theory of evolution.

All the objections were (probably) based on christian views. As all might be aware christianity isn't even the most widespread religion in the world. I find this disturbing. A certain christian population is trying to influence the teaching and acceptance of science, although they are clearly not part of the scientific community and they neglect all other religions at the same time.
Maybe christianity is your personal choice, but if you want to discuss the merits of religion versus science one might want to include all forms of religion.

but i'm probably saying something stupid.



http://members.truepath.com/sapphoo/horse.gif

And James 2:24?
----------------------



When one is evaluating a singular passage derived from the Bible, one must always remember to examine the context. God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace to faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in this site of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by faith through grace.

Remeber, obedience FOLLOWS salvation.

><>

Who has the right to say one religion is better than another
because one emphasizes certain things that the other doesn't?
Who has the right to judge or condemn someone because they believe in something different. Who are you to say that your religion is true and the others false? No one has that right.

"Who has the right to say one religion is better than another...."
---------------


Jesus did, in the New Testament. A Christian is commanded by Jesus in the Bible to guide those who are lost or misled to salvation through faith in Him. Any religions that deviate from the the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are in error, according to God. Period.

><>

Any religions that deviate from the the teachings of Jesus and the Bible are in error, according to God. Period.
No, according to the new testament. Which is only a book. Period.

OldSchoolThinker,

Who has the right to say one religion is better than another

God does, my son. And if you don't follow His word -no matter how vague or contradicting- you will burn in Hell.

Which religion is right? You silly, silly atheist/agnostic. If you read the Bible, it will become clear to you which branch of Christianity is following His word most accurately. If you choose the wrong one, though, you will burn in hell. God made the Bible confusing to make sure heaven doesn't get overcrowded, like China. You didn't know that? That's because I made it up.

Now go! Find the correct religion!

No pressure, though. Your decision will either lead you to eternal salvation or fiery damnation.

Good luck!

When one is evaluating a singular passage derived from the Bible, one must always remember to examine the context. God does not want a faith that is empty and hypocritical. James 2 is talking about those who "say" that they have faith but have no works. Therefore, people cannot tell if they are true believers or not, because there is no fruit. That kind of a faith is useless and is not a saving faith. True faith results in true works. In Matthew 19:16-17, Jesus was speaking to a Lawyer who was self-righteous since he wanted to put Jesus to the test (Luke 10:25). He asked what he must do in order to obtain eternal life and Jesus responded with the requirements of keeping the commandments. If a person keeps all of the commandments, it would seem that they could obtain eternal life. However, nobody can keep all of the commandments. Therefore, Jesus' comments to this man show this man that justification can only be by faith since no one can keep all of the commandments. This is why it says in Eph. 2:8 that we are saved by grace to faith. Also, Romans 3:20,28 and Galatians 2:16 tells us that no one is justified in this site of God by the law; that is, by the works that he can do.

There is no contradiction at all when we examine the contexts. We are justified by faith but that faith must be alive (James 2). The Law cannot save us because we are incapable of keeping it (Matthew 19:16-17). Therefore, salvation is by faith through grace.

You should probably acknowledge http://www.carm.org/diff/Eph2_8.htm as the source

The thing that is unconvincing about that is that Galatians, Romans and Ephesians is that they all say that works are not sufficient, not that they are unnecessary. Carm's interpretation is dodgy; they seem to hammer the bible into their preconceptions. They talk about "kinds" of faith, but the bible does not. It is not merely commenting on those that <i>say</i> they have faith, but also comment on whether faith alone can save:

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Thus, you need both.

Think of it this way: When you pick up a tray by one end, the other end remains behind. Also, you don't grab one handle with both hands. You have two hands, one purpose: to use the tray. Therefore you pick it up by holding on to both sides. Only then can you carry something on it.

God gave us both faith and the ability to do good ("bear fruit") for a reason: so that we live the lives He gave us and intended for us. Faith without deeds is empty. Deeds without faith are empty.

Just as Jesus embodied, initiated and illustrated faith by miracles and other deeds, and carries us in it, so must we who carry him in our faith illustrate it to the world.

God's kingdom is near.

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?"
---------------------------

Once again, look at the context. Obedience FOLLOWS salvation. Since we are saved by grace alone (Romans 5:1) through our faith in Him, THEN we do things that are required of those who are saved. Also, carm.org is an excellent source for Christians, and according to the appertaining disclaimer, one does not need to cite as a source.

BTW, I have seen a significant amount of information quoted here from talkorigins.com and infidels.org with no references.

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Originally posted by VAKEMP
OldSchoolThinker,


God does, my son. And if you don't follow His word -no matter how vague or contradicting- you will burn in Hell.

Which religion is right? You silly, silly atheist/agnostic. If you read the Bible, it will become clear to you which branch of Christianity is following His word most accurately. If you choose the wrong one, though, you will burn in hell. God made the Bible confusing to make sure heaven doesn't get overcrowded, like China. You didn't know that? That's because I made it up.

Now go! Find the correct religion!

No pressure, though. Your decision will either lead you to eternal salvation or fiery damnation.

Good luck!

First of all it was SILLY of you to assume based on
my passage that I was an atheist/agnostic. Which I am not.
I was under the assumption that Christians dont JUDGE people.

Second, it is pointless to use the salvation or damnation argument against someone who doesn't believe in Heaven or Hell.

Third, I dont believe any religion should give you the "our way, or the highway mentality" to gain followers. That mentality plays on weak minded individuals. And as you can see, I'm not one to be weak-minded.

Furthermore, what is a "correct" religion anyway? Who determines that? The believers of each religion. If there was
one correct religion, one way to truth, one path to enlightment, then there would not be so many different religious teachings around the world. Saying that your religion is one "true" religion shows arrogance and ignorance. It is through that same mentality that has been responsible for the deaths of millions of people in history. The Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the european colonization of other countries killing, destroying the native beliefs of people by people who claimed to be christians is the most contradictory thing I've ever heard.

Lastly, if you havent done your research, Christianity recieved the old testement from Judaism, which is older than Christianity. Also a lot of the ceremonies and symbolism in Christianity was derived from Egyptian cults, Zorastaism, and Roman Mithraism with a little of astrology thrown in. If you dont believe me, look it up.

So dont make an assumption about me. Dont judge what I believe in without actually knowing me, k. Cause thats not the Christian way.

Cheers

I thought VAKEMP was joking?

OldSchoolThinker,

Dont judge what I believe in without actually knowing me, k. Cause thats not the Christian way.

I'm not Christian. I was simply pointing out the paradox that you see for yourself.


Furthermore, what is a "correct" religion anyway? Who determines that?

God does...according to theists.


I dont believe any religion should give you the "our way, or the highway mentality" to gain followers.

According to some posters here, that is what religion is all about. :rolleyes:


Lastly, if you havent done your research, Christianity recieved the old testement from Judaism, which is older than Christianity.
I know. Isn't it strange how differently the Jews interpret the Bible compared to Christians? They don't believe Jesus is a God either.


Saying that your religion is one "true" religion shows arrogance and ignorance.

Strange how so many people can misinterpret the Bible. Maybe God should've been a little more clear in His messages...

LIGHTBEING,
I thought VAKEMP was joking?

Good eye!;)

Originally posted by VAKEMP
OldSchoolThinker,

I'm not Christian. I was simply pointing out the paradox that you see for yourself.


God does...according to theists.


According to some posters here, that is what religion is all about. :rolleyes:


I know. Isn't it strange how differently the Jews interpret the Bible compared to Christians? They don't believe Jesus is a God either.


Strange how so many people can misinterpret the Bible. Maybe God should've been a little more clear in His messages...


oops. I thought you were one of those people. Thanks though.

Judaism does interpret the Bible differently. Its interesting. What I'm trying to figure is how did Jesus turn from a messaih who is prophetized to lead the oppressed Jews to freedom into a God.

Its funny how the Jews have been oppressed by "Christians" for centuries because of this one belief. Dont they realize that The OT is the five books of Moses( the Torah). The New Testement didnt come until centuries later. It was written by the Christians to justify Jesus as a Living God.

Religion is so taboo to people. When people debate over it, emotions flare. People are soooo scared to question their beliefs because of conditioned fears that say you can't question such-and-such a thing. It's sad how a lot of individuals who are Christian( I know some) are brainwashed into believing all this stuff without even thinking about it and questioning in their minds. What's the point in having a brain? You might as well hook them up to Biblical reciting machine or something. Its Crazy.

Originally posted by VAKEMP
LIGHTBEING,


Good eye!;)

Ok I see the joke. I guess I was so used to people coming at me like that I became blind to the humor. But that joke was funny as Hell( pun intended). Its good to have some who's own the same page.

OldSchoolThinker,

Ok I see the joke. I guess I was so used to people coming at me like that I became blind to the humor.

Understandable. Once in a while I'll post something irrational like that...to try and see where people like whatsupyall are coming from. :D


People are soooo scared to question their beliefs because of conditioned fears that say you can't question such-and-such a thing.

It can be hard for people to question their family's values. What makes it worse is the lack of education regarding religion. I can admit I suffer from religious ignorance. They don't teach about religion, and the various types. You have to learn by going to church...and you know a church isn't going to claim they aren't following the word of God. So, most people just fall in line with what the rest of their neighborhood/family believes.

I've read a little bit of the Torah, which is basically the Old Testament like you stated earlier. I've also looked on several Jewish websites, and have come to the conclusion that Judaism has a more positive perception of religion and God than Christianity. I think I remember reading somewhere that Jews don't believe in heaven and hell...just a place closer or farther away from God based on your actions (correct me if I'm wrong...I am no expert).

Now, someone on another thread is telling me about the Quran, and how the Torah, Bible, and Quran are all connected to the same God. According to this person, each is written by prophets, when God has decided some clarification is necessary. With that information, how can I discount the possibility that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God, revised and updated?

So many questions, so many different answers! I could literally spend a lifetime researching all of this, just to end up no more certain than I began!


But that joke was funny as Hell( pun intended).

;)

Originally posted by VAKEMP
OldSchoolThinker,

Understandable. Once in a while I'll post something irrational like that...to try and see where people like whatsupyall are coming from. :D


It can be hard for people to question their family's values. What makes it worse is the lack of education regarding religion. I can admit I suffer from religious ignorance. They don't teach about religion, and the various types. You have to learn by going to church...and you know a church isn't going to claim they aren't following the word of God. So, most people just fall in line with what the rest of their neighborhood/family believes.

I've read a little bit of the Torah, which is basically the Old Testament like you stated earlier. I've also looked on several Jewish websites, and have come to the conclusion that Judaism has a more positive perception of religion and God than Christianity. I think I remember reading somewhere that Jews don't believe in heaven and hell...just a place closer or farther away from God based on your actions (correct me if I'm wrong...I am no expert).

Now, someone on another thread is telling me about the Quran, and how the Torah, Bible, and Quran are all connected to the same God. According to this person, each is written by prophets, when God has decided some clarification is necessary. With that information, how can I discount the possibility that the Book of Mormon is also the word of God, revised and updated?

So many questions, so many different answers! I could literally spend a lifetime researching all of this, just to end up no more certain than I began!


;)

I have read up on Judaism and the various beliefs that it contains. There view of God is more positive. From my understanding of Judaism, they believe the way to God is practicing God in their own life by respecting other people and treating them in a humane way. I dont know how Judaism became twisted into the Jesus-centered Christian theology. But its sure interesting. The oppression of Jews didnt really start until the emergence of Christianity. Its Sad how different beliefs can cause human beings to hurt and condemn each other instead of bringing each other together. I wanted to comment on the religous education thing. It is so unfortunate that people dont know about the different religious beliefs of other cultures and ancient civilizations because of the prejudged, closed-minded society we live in. You are right about spending a lifetime researching about religions, because learning is a lifelong process. I've researched all kinds of stuff. I'm fascinated with ancient Egyptian philosophy and their mystery schools. There philosophy is beautiful. I've looked in Hermetism, Gnostism, and some Eastern Philosophy. Right now, I'm on a Judaism and Taoism kick. I combine my interests in Mythology and Ancient history to get a better understanding of the HISTORY of religion and why did they develop the way they did. Its funny how people dont know how much Knowledge opens up your mind and allows you to see the world in a new light. Knowledge leads to understanding, and understanding leads to acceptance. I don't mean to sound philosophical or nothing, but I believe that we should change the way we are taught in this society. There should be courses on Taoism, Hindism, Islam, Egytian and Chinese Philosophy. Even Atheism. History, Philosophy and even Psychology is related because it deals with human relations.
If people were willing to open their minds and have to courage to put all their most cherished beliefs on a table, then we proberly wouldnt have all the problems that go on in this world today.

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

But here faith was wrought with works, which tends to suggest a symbiotic relationship. The context does not suggest that there is a faith is the cause of works and Romans 5:1 suggests that faith is necessary but not necessarily that it is sufficient. The basic message of James 2 seems to you can't just coast by on works because we have really high standards that you can't possibly meet. But you can't just have faith because that wouldn't be much use as a social control(paraphrasing here). So you must have both.

Buddhism is the truth. When I am old enough, I am moving away from this pitiful nation called America. My church turned me away from God. They showed me how ludicrous the system really is. Deists are the only true Christians.

I can't imagine a more positive view of God than one following the God described in the Bible, whether Jewish or Christian. As for fire and damnation - whose realm does those belong to? Satan's - not God's.

Luke 10:16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."
17The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name."
18He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you. 20However, do not rejoice that the spirits submit to you, but rejoice that your names are written in heaven."

Judaism is based on the expectance of a messiah. That is what ther prophets had predicted. They expect a human messiah, descended from the House of David. They didn't expect God to send his Son. But, as Jesus also points out, David himself said:
Psalm 110 (NIV)
1 The LORD says to my Lord:
"Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet."

David himself called the messiah Lord. As some manuscripts have 110:7 "The One who grants succession will set him in authority".

Jesus is the Son of God, more than He is the son of David. It's that fine destinction that separates Judaism from Christianity. You can have as nice a spirituality as you want, whether Buddhism, Judaism or even Christian spirituality - but that doesn't mean you know God. What people don't get is that that is more important than how well you live. The best religion isn't the one who makes God "more acceptible", but the one who gives the truest image of who God is and what His will is.

Don't ignore the fact that the Jews suppressed Christianity viciously. Saul was a devout Jew before he became Paul:
Acts 22:3
"I am a Jew, born in Tarsus of Cilicia, but brought up in this city. Under Gamaliel I was thoroughly trained in the law of our fathers and was just as zealous for God as any of you are today.

Acts 5
28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead--whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
33When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
40His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.
41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.

What makes you think only Christians and not anyone else can know God? Do you have some monopoly or something? That's the problem with religion, people say their religion is the ultimate truth. They say only our religion can know God. That is so Arrogant. If I was a religious person, I'll prefer Judaism over Christianity because its not as restrictive as Christianity and it doesnt focus on getting into some ideal afterlife. They also have interesting interpretations of the Talmund and the Torah. And you cant forget the Kaballah- the mystical part of Judaism. Followers of the Christian religion have committed more violent acts in the name of their God than Judaism and some other religions.

Example: Inquistition, The Crusades, The collapse of Egyptian civilization, Europeon Colonization of Africa, The New World, Austraila, Pacific, African Slavery, The Salem Witch trials

As for fire and damnation - whose realm does those belong to? Satan's - not God's.

You are right BUT Satan was a part of God's Ultimate Plan. Right? What boggles my mind is that God must have created Hell, whether it be directly or indirectly. "He" knows everything. He created everything. Seems like God and Satan are working together :confused:


What makes you think only Christians and not anyone else can know God?

I know exactly what you mean. It is so typical. How can Christians ask to believe through Faith when that is what the majority of all religion rely on. Their proof is their Faith. So if Faith can be used to determine truth how can one argue religion? How can you know God but not others that belong to a different religion? How can you determine this? Why do you determine this? Faith can be argued just as effective for any religion.

And you cant forget the Kaballah- the mystical part of
Judaism.

I studied some Kaballah before. It is very interesting. I have a book on it. It talks about the Four World(different density levels I believe) and how they react with one another and the Tree of Life.

LIGHTBEING,

I also think Kabbalah is very interesting. :)
Just out of curiosity, what is the name of
the book?

Evil Poet,

I'll have to get back to you on that. I read it about 3 or 4 years ago.

LIGHTBEING,

No problem - when/if you get a chance. Like I
said, I was just curious. Thanks for the reply,
much appreciated. :)