Allright theists tell me: Why does God have to have provided an afterlife, what point is there to it? And please don't argue soley on "because he loves us" he can love us and keep us completely mortal can't he?

Heaven is a reward for a good mortal life.
If everyone lived infinetly, (a) what would come of reproduction? over population. (b) all sinners would be allowed to sin forever without paying for their crimes.

Yeah, but he could just smote those that are evil and give those that are good long healthy and happy lives. But I think you're right about the reasoning behind it. I think in reality it's just because man doesn't want to/cannot visualize himself dying, ending. Afterlife idea created God to make it plausable, not the other way around.

Being an atheist, I can't say why you would think that there is an afterlife. Nor can I offer a logical reason(other than parsimony) why there should not be an afterlife.
What says to me there isn't is that part of the brain that stops us buying magic beans or railway bonds. This is a small section of the frontal lobe that future generations will call Voodoo's Area. It will be popularly known as the bullshit detector. If you were having a CAT scan when you heard Clinton say "Ah did not have sexual relations with that woman" this part of the brain would be seen to light up.

Think about it: In reward for your good deeds and tithe money you are going to get a wonderful reward. Of course, you get this reward in another life so it can't possibly be verified. And you get it the second we are sure you can never meet us again. And very unfortunately you can not return to us to complain about it, if you don't like it. And naturally the reward is super duper and will last forever and ever and ever. This has all the hallmarks of a scam.

(edited because parismony sounds like french currency)

The idea of an afterlife is very ancient, the kings of Egypt thought they would pass onto another dimension, and so did other ancient civilizations. The Hebrews adopted this idea as thier own, and called this other dimension "heaven", of course they had to create another dimension called "hell" in order to manipulate ovidience from the followers of their religions.

Tyler: If everyone lived infinetly, (a) what would come of reproduction? over population.
That is true. But still you are suggesting an infinite existence in the afterlife. Is the afterlife immune to overpopulation? Remember that you have your "souls" going and no conceivable end to the process. And what about all the other organisms? On every planet? It would need a huge stretch of imagination for one to concoct any system under which these details would be irrelevant. Or perhaps all it needs is stupidity, I mean faith.
Godless:The idea of an afterlife is very ancient
Remember also that the Mesopotamians were contemplating these subjects in the poem Gilgamesh.

Originally posted by Cactus Jack
Allright theists tell me: Why does God have to have provided an afterlife, what point is there to it?

He doesn't "provide" an afterlife, you are eternal, but your outer body changes (death).

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by Godless
The Hebrews adopted this idea as thier own, and called this other dimension "heaven", of course they had to create another dimension called "hell" in order to manipulate ovidience from the followers of their religions.

Nope, from what little I know about the bible and organized religion I do know that Judaism (sorry if spelled incorrectly) belives in just an afterlife, not segregation like that. Christians created Heaven and Hell.

And Jan, replying to your post. What happens to us after our outer body changes? Or do you mean changes as in the literal sense: Reincarnation?

I don't really think that there is a heaven or hell. People are just selfish and wanted to think that they would live forever, even after death. But it would be damn awesome if there really is one though.:D

Originally posted by Cactus Jack


Nope, from what little I know about the bible and organized religion I do know that Judaism (sorry if spelled incorrectly) belives in just an afterlife, not segregation like that. Christians created Heaven and Hell.

And Jan, replying to your post. What happens to us after our outer body changes? Or do you mean changes as in the literal sense: Reincarnation?



Ah!! ok you may be right however I found this little article of interest read, when you mentioned Judaism, BTW you spelled it right!.:D Check it out!!.

Afterlife

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Olam ha*Ba (afterlife) is rarely discussed in Jewish life, be it among Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox Jews. This is in marked contrast to the religious traditions of the people among whom the Jews have lived. Afterlife has always played a critical role in Islamic teachings, for example. To this day, Muslim terrorists who are dispatched on suicide missions are reminded that anyone who dies in a jihad (holy war) immediately ascends to the highest place in heaven. In Christianity, afterlife plays a critical role; the vigorous missionizing efforts of many Protestant sects are rooted in the belief that converting nonbelievers will save them from hell.


Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all.


Since Judaism does believe in the "next world," how does one account for the Torah's silence? I suspect that there is a correlation between its nondiscussion of afterlife and the fact that the Torah was revealed just after the long Jewish sojourn in Egypt. The Egyptian society from which the Hebrew slaves emerged was obsessed with death and afterlife. The holiest Egyptian literary work was called The Book of the Dead, while the major achievement of many Pharaohs was the erection of the giant tombs called pyramids. In contrast, the Torah is obsessed with this world, so much so that it even forbids its priests from coming into contact with dead bodies (Leviticus 21:2).


The Torah, therefore, might have been silent about afterlife out of a desire to ensure that Judaism not evolve in the direction of the death obsessed Egyptian religion. Throughout history, those religions that have assigned a significant role to afterlife have often permitted other religious values to become distorted. For example, belief in the afterlife motivated the men of the Spanish Inquisition to torture innocent human beings; they believed it was morally desirable to torture people for a few days in this world until they accepted Christ, and thereby save them from the eternal torments of hell.


In Judaism the belief in afterlife is less a leap of faith than a logical outgrowth of other Jewish beliefs. If one believes in a God who is all*powerful and all*just, one cannot believe that this world, in which evil far too often triumphs, is the only arena in which human life exists. For if this existence is the final word, and God permits evil to win, then it cannot be that God is good. Thus, when someone says he or she believes in God but not in afterlife, it would seem that either they have not thought the issue through, or they don't believe in God, or the divine being in whom they believe is amoral or immoral.


According to Judaism, what happens in the next world? As noted, on this subject there is little material. Some of the suggestions about afterlife in Jewish writings and folklore are even humorous. In heaven, one story teaches, Moses sits and teaches Torah all day long. For the righteous people (the tzaddikim), this is heaven; for the evil people, it is hell. Another folktale teaches that in both heaven and hell, human beings cannot bend their elbows. In hell people are perpetually starved; in heaven each person feeds his neighbor.


All attempts to describe heaven and hell are, of course, speculative. Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate. Beyond that, it is hard to assume much more. We are asked to leave afterlife in God's hands.


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Source: Joseph Telushkin. Jewish Literacy. NY: William Morrow and Co., 1991. Reprinted by permission of the author

Godless very cool article, enjoyed it thoroughly

Originally posted by Cactus Jack
Or do you mean changes as in the literal sense: Reincarnation? [/B]

Both. As long as we are under the influence of time, our bodies are constantly changing, when our bodies come to the end of its particular time period, the soul has to accept another body, be it spiritual or material.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Why Afterlife?

Here’s a thought...

Because Life was hard for most people. There was only one life; it was short; it was dangerous; it was a one-shot deal with no guarantees; in some ways it was a mystery. People wanted/needed something to look forward to; something to explain the “unknown” of after-death; something to alleviate some of the responsibility of living.

There is evidence suggesting that some of our earliest ancestors believed in a “spirit world” of sorts. As we evolved we developed more ability to reason, as well as to wish. We became more clever; more creative; more crafty. The concept of an “afterlife” has been used as the proverbial “carrot” before the horse. Incentive to be “good” by whomever’s standards, and used as encouragement for those who’ve come to accept (rightly or wrongly) that their lot in life is too hard to bear. “Put up with those who abuse you. After all, you know you’re going to be happy in ’heaven’ for all of eternity. You can bear this injustice until then--nay, you should bear it...” Dangerous, manipulative stuff.

Basically, employing the concept of an “afterlife” is a behavior that's little different than that of avoiding an issue. The presumption is that much of what goes on in the here-n-now life doesn’t really matter, or only matters in a limited sense, when in fact we have no good reason to accept that it does. But some people have difficulty dealing with facts.

A tool of manipulation. Or a weapon. Depends on who’s trying to use the concept and why.

~~~

Counterbalance

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
[/i]

Both. As long as we are under the influence of time, our bodies are constantly changing, when our bodies come to the end of its particular time period, the soul has to accept another body, be it spiritual or material.

Love

Jan Ardena.

Very cool way of putting it.