Hi again..:)

I have a very simple question.

If God made us...Who made God? and so on and so forth.

Id like to hear peoples theories.

Cheers:)

Razz,

It’s an old question, but worth a re-visit.

The problem arises from the observation that every effect has a cause, and if this rule is to hold true for everything then a god must have a cause as well. This would require an infinite line of god creators. Which I guess might exist but this is really considered as being ludicrous.

Religionists propose the idea of an uncaused first cause, i.e. an infinite god who has no need of being created.

But really why do we need to accept that proposal? Religionists assert that a god created the universe and he is an uncaused first cause. But no one can show that any such god exists, and really why would one be necessary? If we just back up one step then we could hypothesize that the universe is infinite, and we certainly know the universe exists, so this is vastly more believable than being asked to believe an invisible immaterial super being did it.

Any way you view this you end up with the conclusion that something somewhere must have the property of infinity.

Cris

I offer the very answer given me by Pastor Les Olsen (most likely retired), a Lutheran preacher. Pastor Olsen presented this as his response to a Lutheran confirmation class on the occasion of the question: We don't ask that question.

I know it's a cheap answer, a cowardly answer. But that's why it's on the list of reasons why I'm not Lutheran.

To the other is the Catholic dogmatic answer, that God is Alpha and Omega, and thus has no concept of origin. At least I think that's the dogmatic answer; it's the one offerred without prompting by the Franciscan sister who taught my sophomore high school theology class. Bottom line being that God has no point of origin, and that's a matter of faith.

I think my favorite answer comes from a Quaker; not a preacher, just a man in a meeting house I happened to attend ... twice, I think: I figure it's like anything else. We'll figure it out when we figure it out, and if we're not supposed to figure it out, we won't.

I like the Quaker answer despite its inefficacy. It's personalized, introspective, and relative to the entities considered. It allows closure in both forms, knowledge or ignorance. Sure, it's not much of an answer, but it's better than the other two I've included.

Considerations on the origin of God provided me the groundwork for the opinion I currently espouse: that existence itself is, technically, a fallacy. There is only one out I can think of, and it is simply this: At some point, we must reconcile the fact that the Universe had to come from somewhere. Now, you're not going to find me fielding deep theories challenging this notion, but isn't it just a little bit a priori I mean, sure, even I agree that things have a beginning. But God doesn't have to have one apparently, so why should the Universe? Time is a fiction in the sense that we regard it. The Universe is, and that much seems clear. But the differentiations and progressions we humans draw are mere fictions relevant only because we've found something better to do than hang around and simply be.

The stars sing, but they don't wear Joe Boxers while they do, and they don't demand rider provisions in the contract. Contract? Heck ... stars do fine, why can't we?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

The only problem I have with the Uncaused First Cause Theory (yes, it is a theory) is that the same can be applied to the universe. If this is done, there is really no need for a creator in the first place, since the universe was never caused, it's just been there.
: I figure it's like anything else. We'll figure it out when we figure it out, and if we're not supposed to figure it out, we won't.
So, until then we should just not think about it? How will we ever figure it out then? The problem is, any theory we come up with (unless it completely disproves God's existence) cannot be proven unless we ask God himself. Since this is the case, the problem can be ignored completely and everyone can be free to go on living their lives of theism and atheism without ever worrying about it. For atheists God never existed, because the universe had no beginning. For the theist, God had no beginning, and he created the universe.

Xelios--So, until then we should just not think about it? How will we ever figure it out then?Well, I did note that the answer was ineffective:I like the Quaker answer despite its inefficacy. It's personalized, introspective, and relative to the entities considered. It allows closure in both forms, knowledge or ignorance. Sure, it's not much of an answer, but it's better than the other two I've included. What I like about the answer, though, is that it seems more honest than the others. In the context of the proposal, though, is no obligation whatsoever to cease our inquiries. I take the Quaker answer to mean that we'll get there when we get there. It's a way of dodging the issue slightly while preserving a sense of honor about the question. In this case, and specifically because of the nature of my past encounters with the Society of Friends, I interpreted his answer to mean two things:

* Our inquiries will either be successful or not.
* It is not his place to speak for God.

Consider, please, that all the inquiry in the Universe won't help us if, like Magrathea's pride, we get blown up twenty minutes before finishing the equation. Nuclear war, comets, alien invasion, the Second Coming of Ronald Reagan ... whatever it is that kills the human species, if we have not succeeded in our inquiries, then we will not by proxy of having been destroyed. I believe the Quaker response allows for continued inquiry while the Lutheran response, for instance, does not.

As to God, I would merely point out that in juxtaposition to the Catholic answer, the Quaker answer speaks nothing of God, and focuses instead on our inquiries. Where as the Catholic answer asserts a faith point that begins with "God is", and thus attributes God through faith, the Quaker answer makes no such attributions. It seems to address the issue about as honestly as an obligated theist can.

How's that for a paradox? An honest dodge? ;)The problem is, any theory we come up with (unless it completely disproves God's existence) cannot be proven unless we ask God himself. Since this is the case, the problem can be ignored completely and everyone can be free to go on living their lives of theism and atheism without ever worrying about it. For atheists God never existed, because the universe had no beginning. For the theist, God had no beginning, and he created the universe.I'll take it a step further and assert that theism, then, is an accreted philosophy with no firm grounding; in and of itself, this is not a problem. But when we look at the practical effect, I will go so far as to venture that theism has been a stumbling block for the human race, and that just seems like a silly result; after all, don't we invent our gods with the intent of raising humanity a notch?

Okay ... since I'm wasting my spare time at work, I fully admit that I've lost my train of thought. I had started to make an example of how theism bears a general trend of human harm alongside its promises, but suddenly I found myself too focused on Abramic religions and lost amid a broad spectrum that required at least the distinction 'twixt redemptive theism and other forms ... and after three phone calls and cleaning up some jaw-dropping idiocy I'm a little lost in my immediate surroundings now. Point being, I had hoped to finish up on a note other than a somewhat sarcastic question such as raising humanity a notch. But I can't seem to manage that, so a rambling disclaimer seems to work well enough. ;)

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Science says the Big Bang was uncaused. Same dilema. There are either infinite causes going in a big circle (but then how did the circle get started) or a first uncaused cause. In science that uncaused cause is the big bang and in religion that uncaused cause is God.

Pretty simple. Both science and religion are in the same boat on that one.

Tiassa:

We know Tiassa we know.

Ben

Science says the Big Bang was uncaused. Same dilema. There are either infinite causes going in a big circle (but then how did the circle get started) or a first uncaused cause. In science that uncaused cause is the big bang and in religion that uncaused cause is God.I'll point out the assumption that the Bang is the "uncaused cause". You see, science is dedicated to unraveling that cause. Creationism simply assumes that since it's too confusing to figure out the tough answers, we should believe whatever we choose.

Have you not considered that when we get back to the pre-bang stasis, we're going to have to answer what issues that presents, and what issues that next point presents, until we push to the real and true first cause? Of course you haven't. Why not? Well, that's your excuse to make. But the Bang is what the scientists are after because the model consistently is reflected in the results. We're within microseconds after the Bang in laboratory conditions. When we move that last step, and achieve Bang and then stasis, one of the fundamental questions is what caused the instability that allowed/caused the Bang.

Like I said many times before, stay tuned for the scientific answers; look in the back issues for the faith resolutions.

And if, KalvinB, you know, you know, why didn't you?

If all you can do is ill-time your borrowed cliches ....

Show me, please, KalvinB, where "Science" says the Bang was uncaused. You've made an assertion as part of your argumentative justification; do you have any evidence to support your assertion?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Kalvinb,

Excellent, you are getting close to saying we don't know just like a true atheist. I knew I was right to have faith in your potential. But you aren't quite there yet.

However, as usual the popular media and popular beliefs tend to lag behind leading edge research.

Here is a quote by Alan Guth Professor of Physics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT). And author of The Inflationary Universe.

If the inflationary theory of cosmology is right, it means that the universe is far larger than we had thought. Most likely the universe is also much older than we thought, and it includes not just one, but an infinity of big bangs.

To read a little more on multiple big bangs and why our currently observable universe is most likely just merely a speck in an infinite universe, follow this link -

Infinite Bubble Universes (http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/guth_1.html)

It is a big jump to proving an infinite universe, but the case for a god is again looking very thin.

Cris

That's probably why the pastor said "we don't ask that question" because the only answer could possibly be a lie since "we don't know." Technically God wasn't created. He just is, was and always will be. But why wrack your brain over that one?

Cris, scientists will come up with any number of theories to say God doesn't exist. None of them are provable. So there's no point in arguing.

Better to debate doctrine.

Ben

Kalvin,

Cris, scientists will come up with any number of theories to say God doesn't exist. I think you place too much importance on how others see your religion. Most scientists are not particularly interested in proving that god does or does not exist. Their interest is in finding explanations and if a god crops up in that search then fine, otherwise he, and his existence/non-existence, are essentially irrelevant.

Better to debate doctrine. Now that is a pointless waste of time.

Cris

None of them are provable. So there's no point in arguing.
Of course they are provable. Just because we don't have the technological means to prove them just now doesn't mean there's no proof to be found. However, no proof exists for God either, so it's really a 2 way arguement.

But there is a difference, scientists try to prove theirs thats why they make progress, albert einstein had a theory that wasnt able to be tested for i think 13 years but scientists strived to do it and finally made a test which the theory past, but on the religion side you cant just go have a press conference with god, or any possible test whatsoever

Just to inject a little modern physics into the discussion...

Our ideas of causation break down at the big bang, because time itself breaks down at the big bang (at least according to current theories). Modern cosmology holds that time was created at the moment of the big bang. Hence, there is no moment of time before the big bang. There can be no "prior cause" of the big bang, because there is no "prior". Asking the cause of the big bang is therefore a meaningless question, akin to "What's north of the North Pole?"

JR,

I think that view is changing if you consider the big bang as just being part of our local bubble. See my earlier post on this and the link to Alan Guth's articles.

Cris

But time, at least as we know it, still may not exist beyond our universe bubble. Who knows, whatever we are floating in may have completely different properties, such as effects happening before causes and so on.

I am the goal, the sustainer, the master, the witness, the abode the refuge and the most dear friend. I am the creation and the annihilation, the basis of everything, the resting place and the eternal seed.
BG.9.18

By human calculation, a thousand ages taken together form the duration of Brahma’s one day. And such also is the duration of his night.

Again and again, when Brahma’s day arrives, all living entities come into being, and with the arrival of Brahma’s night they are helplessly annihilated.

Yet there is another unmanifest nature, which is eternal and is transcendental to this manifested and unmanifested matter. It is supreme and is never annihilated. When all in this world is annihilated, that part remains as it is.

That which the Vedantists describe as unmanifest and infallible,
That which is known as the supreme destination, that place from which having attained it, one never returns, that is My supreme abode.
BG. 8. 17-21

Love

Jan Ardena.

Hey people thanks for your replies so far.





Did we invent God, ...in order to believe, ...God invented us?



cheers
RazZ:D

That's what I think. We invented religion and God to help us feel secure about ourselves and our future, as well as give our lives meaning and an origin. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just when people start taking it too far (like tony1) that it becomes a problem.

*Originally posted by razz
Did we invent God, ...in order to believe, ...God invented us?*

Most gods in existence are invented gods.
Thus, atheists are 99.999999999% correct in taking the strong atheist stance and rejecting such fictional gods outright.

The God I propose is the God that isn't an invention.
He is the inventor, of us and all creation.

To examine the concept of invented gods, one has to consider the deception factor.

I'll use JA as an example.
JA, in some ways sounds a little like I do.
However, JA believes that his/her god is the same as mine.

Mine says...

And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
(John 6:35, KJV).

JA's god says...
---The Supreme Lord said: I am death, the mighty destroyer of the world, out to destroy....
(BG 11.32)---

It's easy to see where the deception factor is.

If you want life, choose the God who says he is life.
If you want death, choose JA's "supreme lord."

All of the various books can be read to find out what they say.
The B-G, which JA favors, tells you who its author is, so if you want death, then go with the author of that book.

If you want life, then go with the author of life.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
...
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Deuteronomy 30:15,19, KJV).

A choice, with a hint underlined.

in the bible it says that God was not made, but begotten I'm not quite sure how you would be able to picture that in your head, but that is what it is.......

......If you all have questions about God or anything related to him and about him.....i suggest reading the Bible, it can answer every question about him that you could possibly ask

just try reading it, it will help you to better understand God and get to know him personally

Ashley

Can it tell me who created God? Because that's one of the questions I have, and it's a big one.

It can tell you what you need to know.....God was not made by another God or being, he was begotten....very hard to explain....kind of like fate....it was meant to be

hope that kind of answered your question

Ashley

Hey, I just wanted to let you guys know that my sister Sarah is going to be taking over, because I'm leaving for a while to stay up north. bye.

Ashley

While it did answer my question, I'd now like to ask what if keeping you or anyone else from using that explanation for the universe itself? Why does it seem the universe had to have been created, why was it simply not begotten like God.

This is one of the biggest problems I have with any religion. It seems that it's ok for God to have existed forever, but when you try to apply that concept to the universe itself religionists automatically go on the defensive and assert that this is not the way it is. I just want to know why.

It was not begotten like God because God is the one who created it. He made the universe and the earth which we live on, and he created us and the animals and the sun, the moon and the sky. and, by the way if you would just read the Bible it would answer every question that you want to ask me, but if you just want to hear my opinion of it, since i am a Christian, you can.

Hi People.

Well it seems no one has bothered to read what ive written in other religeous posts, for none have made reasonable comment on my posts as a whole.

Most have just thrown scriptures and quotes from the bible,
(wich version i have no idea.)]
And simply shot down selected out of context sections from what ive written,
I want Tony 1 and all his other religious friends, who constantly use quotes and scriptures to make points, to read what i have pasted below and tell me how i can trust the bible and why i should believe the texts havent been tampered with.
And dont quote from the damn Bible.


.................................................. ...............................................
originaly posted in ----->

sciforums.com > Philosophy > Religion > Is Salvation by faith alone?
.................................................. ...............................................

Well firstly let me start off by saying, you all have good points on either side of this debate.

ok hmmm....
So basically religion is based strictly on the Bible.
All that you know, all that you believe, all that you preach and practice comes from information and advice written within the pages of the "Good Book".

The bible was written originaly as seperate text's, eventually compiled as a single book.(one copy)
From this single book, written a a few thousand years ago, we now have billions of copies, millions of versions, thousands of languages, and hundreds of shortened , edited, juvinile, and even brail versions.

Now concider the darker nature of man for a moment.
We lie, cheat, manipulate, we are self serving and lets not forget deceiptful, just to name a few.
Is it at all likely, that over ther generations as each new edition was revised and reprinted, that various factions, governments, kings and queens, politicians and people in positions of power, changed or edited the bible in some small way in order to serve themselves or the public interests for what ever reason.
Power and corruption, fear and dominance, control of the masses, finacial gain, are all good motives to start.

How many times has this "EDITING" happened? How much of what is left in the Bible is correct and genuine?
Try a chinese whisper around your office block or school etc today.
quite simply tell someone a secret and tell them to pass it on, give it a few days and see what you come back with.
.................................................. ...........................................
"RazZ rules" ..turns into..... "RazZ is hung like a donkey and apparently he is a love God" ( oh how i wish that were true)
.................................................. ............................................

People by nature can not allways be trusted.
Thus, I can not for the life of me see why somone would put such unquestionable faith in a book that has been so obviously available for tampering over the millenia.
Its not like the Bible and its pages have tamper proof water marks or high tech digital security.
Who alive can varify that this is "God's True Word?"
Why are people believing this book so utterly and unquestionably?
When the equal opposite, .."Science's theory of Evolution" must provide proof and documentation, hard facts and Elemental tables at every turn.

Why do most religeous nutters defend the Bible to the death without ever once daring to listen to possible variations of the so called truth about where we come from.

The bible may well be a genuine collection of information that God inteneded us to live our lives by, and from what ive read, the rules and commandments dont seem so bad , basically be kind be honest , be gentle and forgiving, love yourself and your neigbour, are not bad ways to live out your life.
But of coarse if i choose to be my own man, and fear no Gods wrath, Im up for a spongebath in hellfire with Satan for Eternity.

Not really a "Fair Choice", .......Skimpy Clad Angels ...........or..... Horny Prickly Devils.....hmmm wich to choose .???????????.........
so i've adopted my own way to deal with this.
When im bad, I yell "Hail Mary" repeatedly as i commit my crime against god and humanity, thankfully being able to snub my nose and twinkle my fingers at the devil while poking my tongue out.
__________________________________________________


The laws of most modern western societies are originaly built on what system?
A): The Bible.

Now if scientists were able to 100% disprove the Bible and Gods existance once and for all, what would this mean to our current set of social laws?
Would our laws still hold value?

Thou shalt Not steal, murder, etc etc etc..
All major crime laws are based originaly on the bible in western culture.
Western social Laws would suddenly have a major floor... they are based on a lie, on a misconception if you will.

How many hard nosed cold blooded Lawyers would use that one to keep their guilty clients from doing hard time?

What would happen to our social order?
How the hell would we control the masses then?

Would there be any point in swearing on the bible before giving testimony?

I say the Bible will never be disproven, it is a fundemental building block in the fabric of our society, it is needed in order to keep the peace and maintain social order.
Evolutionists can take a back seat, our governments can not risk the downfall of laws such as those based on the bible.
I unfortunately I tend to agree.

Hope I've made some sense.

Cheers
RazZ

you can find the bible totally unedited (in hebrew), but in order to understand it you would have to learn Hebrew....you can do that if you really want to, but the bibles that have been translated have the same meaning....be careful when getting a bible because a few of them have been reworded and changed a little, which does make a difference....a good translated bible that you could read from would be a NIV (New International Version).....and if you are a teenager you can still choose that, but i would suggest a bible that is for teenagers because they are easier to understand and give you some insight to what you are reading....well i hope that helps you!!

have a nice day!!

Quote:

"you can find the bible totally unedited (in hebrew)"
----------------------------------------------------------------------


So we have the original texts of the bible in our possession even to this day? we have the stone tablets containing the ten commandments and all the apostles scriptures/texts?

or do we have a hebrew version of the bible thats relatively old?
How do you prove the version you speak of is the original?

I would love to see the genuine 100% original no reprint copy of gods exact words.

Even then it is pretty much impossible to varify anything that was written by a mans hand on gods behalf , after all was this infact what God wanted us to know anyway, or is this what some apostle perceived in his dreams or visions etc. how do i know it wasnt edited or loosely noted from this apostles point of view then written as Gods word at a later date

(Tis human to err.)

I could go on all day, but you cant tell me, the proof that the bible is unedited, is in another verson of the bible.

.................................................. .................................................
spunks239 said and i quote:

"be careful when getting a bible because a few of them have been reworded and changed a little, which does make a difference..."
.................................................. .................................................
Congrats I agree


Have a lovely day"

RazZ
:D

yes, the bible was written in Hebrew and to answer your other doubts/questions i suggest reading my post in The Inecitable Evil of Religious Belief

That should help you!

I read your post :"The Inecitable Evil of Religious Belief"

And i still cant see how it varifies the validity of the bibles texts.
Your post has bugger all to do with proving the bible is unedited.

Ps: i didnt ask if the bible was in hebrew, i asked you to clarify this hebrew versions existance.

"So we have the original texts of the bible in our possession even to this day? we have the stone tablets containing the ten commandments and all the apostles scriptures/texts? "

If so where are they? can anyone read them? do you know anyone able to perfectly translate ancient hebrew?

Even if we do have these things, how do we varify their genuine worth as gods word!.

cheers
RazZ:D

Qoute:
{I read your post :"The Inecitable Evil of Religious Belief"}

Yes, I misspelled Inevitable, and I figured you would get it.
"Tis human to err"

scientist have found that it is original after finding thousands of copies....if you want to know all of the details then look it up...on a search engine if you like, and you will probably see the validity of the Bible....even scientists have said this and you know how skeptical they are of religions.

Jesus was a Jew and the Bible was written in Hebrew during his period....North America was unknow and I believe Austrailia was too. You have many questions that I think can easily be found through simply searching for it on a search engine.

Quote:
"So we have the original texts of the bible in our possession even to this day? we have the stone tablets containing the ten commandments and all the apostles scriptures/texts? "

Yes, I have heard that we have the original tablets containing the ten commandments, but as you can imagine they are VERY old so they are not quite eligable, except for some parts of it that have not been smoothed over......**also you can search for this**

Quote:
"If so where are they? can anyone read them? do you know anyone able to perfectly translate ancient hebrew?"
There are few people who can read ancient languages, but yes there are poeple who can. Languages as you should know do not all have the same words for some things as in a non-physical element such as love.....but yes the Bible is translated correctly. I'm not sure where they are lol, but you might be able to find out by searching.

Quote:
"Even if we do have these things, how do we varify their genuine worth as gods word!"
Scientist have found and traced many of the places that the Bible talks about and found some evidence in some areas where the Bible explains a certain event had taken place.....which is very amazing to know that it can be true if you are willing to accept it.

There I hope I answered many of your questions

So far you have told me too look all this up.

you named no scientists, no genuine organisations and no hard facts, even if you did, it would still not be worth a dime.
because you did not varify that the bible was "PROVEN" to be the word of God , (wich..i might add was my point.)

You can't prove God exists!! (fact)
You can't prove man didnt just invent the bible for his own ends.(also a fact)

Therefore you cant prove the vaildity of these scriptures or posts you paste as being Gods word and the basis for your arguements

so once again if God cant be proven to exist, and the Bible cant be proven to be Gods word.
Then how you use unprovable scriptures as arguement for justification for spending a lifetime worshiping god, doing his bidding and disbeleiveing the theory of evolution or other alternate possiblities.

PS: i still dont believe that the bible has not changed in any way since its original form, to many versions etc are available these days. So unless you have read from the original unedited copy and the tablets you say exist how would you know for sure?!!!!


Cheers
RazZ

It's called research....maybe you should try it

Its callled.........CHECKMATE!!!!

I didnt bother researching because even if you were right about the bible being unchanged, and an original copy etc being available to varify your point ......nobody can prove God exists anyway and if god cant be proven to even exist then i doubt anybody can prove the Bible is the word of "God" and not the word of "man" inventing "God".

They could only hope and speculate!

Glad i could stump you!
please dont be grumpy with me.

have a lovely day.
:) RazZ

#1 We're niether playing Chess nor competing or whatever you think we're doing.......
#2 You did not stump me, no matter how hard you try you could not.
#3 Read the Bible before you start saying all this crap that you don't even know what you are talking about.
#4 Prove to me that there is no God.

Sorry to have upset you or tested your faith a lill bit.
I Dont understand why some hardcore christians and other religious people get so upset when you ask a basic question that might not be able to be answered so easily.

Science is their best friend when they want to prove something physical like a scroll or an artifact related to jesus or God...but the second the same science is utilised as a tool to debunk the religious faith ..it slammed as bullshit.

I didnt trash God Nor did i say he didnt exist , I merely asked the question "Does he exist" and if so prove it !.
And if you cant prove it then that means the bibles genuine validity is also to be held up to scruteny.
But these points like many others are not ever entertained by the religious, they just simply change the subject or quote from the bible once more.
If i was going to spend a lifetime living a certain way, and holding certain points of view... then id like to know that i knew all the facts before i closed my mind and dedicated my life.

I have read the bible, i was brought up a christian,
However , now as an adult,.. i tend to be a little more open minded as to the genuine nature of our existance...who knows we may all be looking South for the answers, and in time we may find the answers were North the whole time.

Just because alot of people believe in something, doesnt make it real.

None so blind as those who wont see!

have a lovely sun shiney day:D
RazZ

*Originally posted by Xelios
but when you try to apply that concept to the universe itself religionists automatically go on the defensive and assert that this is not the way it is. I just want to know why. *

Well, religionists go on the defensive about that because....

Just think about an infinitely old universe.
All energy has reached equilibrium, all the stars have gone out, and everything just sits there.

Hey, it IS a possibility, but since it doesn't fit with observed reality, it is rejected as a valid possibility.

*Originally posted by razz
I would love to see the genuine 100% original no reprint copy of gods exact words.*

How would you know it if someone gave you exactly that?
All you would do is ask someone to prove that it was the genuine 100% original no reprint copy of gods exact words.
And if they did, all you would do is ask how you could trust them.
And so on.
This way it saves everyone a lot of work.
We believe what we believe, and you question what you question.

*Then how you use unprovable scriptures as arguement for justification for spending a lifetime worshiping god, doing his bidding and disbeleiveing the theory of evolution or other alternate possiblities.*

Easy, because our other choice is to believe you.

*They could only hope and speculate! *

No, that's called "s-c-i-e-n-c-e."

---theory \The"o*ry\, n.; pl. Theories. [F. th['e]orie, L. theoria, Gr. ? a beholding, spectacle, contemplation, speculation, fr. ? a spectator, ? to see, view. See Theater.]
1. A doctrine, or scheme of things, which terminates in speculation or contemplation, without a view to practice; hypothesis; speculation.---

See, "theory" as in "theory of evolution."

You dodged my questions again....


(razz quote:)
.................................................. ............................................
"Does he (god) exist" and if so prove it !.
And if you cant prove it then that means the bibles genuine validity is also to be held up to scruteny.

........AND....

"Nobody can prove God exists anyway and if God cant be
proven to even exist ....then i doubt anybody can prove the
Bible is the word of "God" and not the word of "man" inventing "God".
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( now that is a vaild point )

If i was going to spend a lifetime living a certain way, and
holding certain points of view... then id like to know that i
knew all the facts before i closed my mind and dedicated my
life to this belief.

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GOD: Pronunciation: (god), [key] —n., v., god•ded, god•ding,
—interj. —n.

1. the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
2. (l.c.) ONE of SEVERAL DIETIES, esp. a male Deity, presiding over some portion of worldly affairs.
3. Christian Science.the Supreme Being, understood as Life, Truth, Love, Mind, Soul, Spirit, Principle.
—v.t.
(l.c.) to regard or treat as a god; deify; idolize.
—interj.
(used to express disappointment, disbelief, weariness, frustration, annoyance, or the like): God, do we have to listen to this nonsense?
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BIBLE: Pronunciation: (bI'bul), [key] —n.

1. the collection of sacred writings of the Christian religion, comprising the Old and New Testaments.
2. Also called Hebrew Scriptures. the collection of sacred writings of the Jewish religion: known to Christians as the Old Testament.
3. (often l.c.) the sacred writings of any religion.
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FAITH : Pronunciation: (fAth), [key] —n.

1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is NOT based on PROOF: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3. belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
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MYTH: Pronunciation: (mith), [key] —n.

1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
3. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
4. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
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HAVE A LOVELY SUN SHINEY DAY
RazZ:D

It was not begotten like God because God is the one who created it.
Lets assume the universe wasn't created. Is it possible then that it has existed forever, and will continue to do so in one form or another? That is my basis on where the universe "came from".

*Originally posted by razz
Does he (god) exist and if so prove it !*

OK, how do 6 billion people all come up with the word God, but not mean anything with it?

*And if you cant prove it then that means the bibles genuine validity is also to be held up to scruteny.*

No problem.

*now that is a vaild point*

No.
You doubting something doesn't prove anything other than you doubt it.

*If i was going to spend a lifetime living a certain way, and
holding certain points of view... then id like to know that i
knew all the facts before i closed my mind and dedicated my
life to this belief.*

Get busy, you've got a lot of facts ahead of you.
BTW, how are you going to separate true facts from crap?
Are you just going to guess?

*GOD...
ONE of SEVERAL DIETIES...*

There are lots of gods, who told you different?

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(Exodus 20:3, KJV).

*FAITH...
belief that is NOT based on PROOF:*

What proof do you have of your name?
After all, your parents just TOLD you what it was, and then just TOLD the government the same thing.
All the documents you have showing your name are just based on that hearsay.
Thus, you believe your name is what it is, just because your parents SAID so.
You have no PROOF.

*Originally posted by Xelios
Lets assume the universe wasn't created. Is it possible then that it has existed forever, and will continue to do so in one form or another?*

It's plausible, sure.
If you check out what entropy is, and what the results are, then the universe would already be like that if it existed from infinity past.

Since we're still here, that isn't a valid assumption.

I had a thought....
Your constant preaching and obviously closed mind prevents you from seeing any other way other than your own dictatorship you call Gods Supreme Rule.

Firstly if your God is So perfect Then why does he demand we worship him and only him? thats an ego based trait.

secondly why do you insist on saying the same boring stuff over and over again, never once addressing thepoints people make.
Do you not even see the words on the pages in front of you?

you pick and choose, twist and contort, and then bypass and change the entire subject by quoteing of gods apparent word.

If gods so almighty i say make the bastard come down and see me personaly...today! let him tell me to believe.. if he is so wonderful and all powerful im sure he has the time.

My last point is this.

Your preaching does more harm than good,

I wonder how many people have been unsure of Gods existance, unsure of religious faith , then gazed upon the words written by people like "spunks239 " and Yours ( Tony 1 ) and been totally turned off the idea of ever believing.
I know i have permanently been turned of the idea of God within the last few days, i used to be unsure, but now, I know that my faith belong with athiests at this point in time.

You have planted a seed of distate,
a seed of fear that grows with me , not fear of God, not fear of being wrong, but a fear of ever becoming as closed minded and judgmental as you and some of your friends seem to be.

The thought of allways having to be right.
The thought of having the my head full of so much religious bullshit with no room left for common sense or other possibilties is frightening to me.

You will of coarse, respond with your usual indignified remarks, quite possibly another scripture or another quote or paste.
But this is the nature of your beast.

I wonder how your god will feel about the good work you are doing, frightening away his children.

have a lovely sunshiney day
RazZ
The new Athiest.

(I think, therefore i am.... you stopped thinking long ago.)

Tony1 is not trying to discuss religion, he is trying to convert people to his religion. Sadly, it's not working out for him. But by all means tony, keep pushing people away, I'm sure God will thank you for it...

It's not certain that God created the universe, some people just choose to think He did. Instead of trying to find the hard answers, they choose to take the easy route and simply say "It was God.". There's nothing wrong with this, it's just what seperates scientists from believers. Both are perfectly acceptable ways to live your life, it's just that you have to choose to either accept we don't yet know how the universe came into being or attribute it's existance to an omnipotent being. Either way, it's your choice, don't let others such as myself or tony1 make it for you.

The speech has ended :p

*Originally posted by razz
Firstly if your God is So perfect Then why does he demand we worship him and only him? thats an ego based trait.*

So?
Who do you think created egos in the first place?

*secondly why do you insist on saying the same boring stuff over and over again, never once addressing thepoints people make.
Do you not even see the words on the pages in front of you?*

Because you guys keep posting the same old stuff over and over and over and over and over and over....

*you pick and choose, twist and contort, and then bypass and change the entire subject by quoteing of gods apparent word.*

If you are as good as you think, then why not post untwistable words?

*If gods so almighty i say make the bastard come down and see me personaly...today! let him tell me to believe.. if he is so wonderful and all powerful im sure he has the time.*

If he did then you'd be Almighty.
You aren't, so you go to him.

*Your preaching does more harm than good,*

Doing OK for me.

*I wonder how many people have been unsure of Gods existance, unsure of religious faith , then gazed upon the words written by people like "spunks239 " and Yours ( Tony 1 ) and been totally turned off the idea of ever believing.*

Only stupid people would do that.
If you never believe, then you're always just guessing, which means you'll never know anything.

*I know i have permanently been turned of the idea of God within the last few days, i used to be unsure, but now, I know that my faith belong with athiests at this point in time.*

Faith with atheists?
What is that?
You believe that you don't believe?

*You have planted a seed of distate,
a seed of fear that grows with me , not fear of God, not fear of being wrong, but a fear of ever becoming as closed minded and judgmental as you and some of your friends seem to be.*

Oh no, how horrible.

*The thought of allways having to be right.
The thought of having the my head full of so much religious bullshit with no room left for common sense or other possibilties is frightening to me.*

I knew you were just afraid.
Now you're trying to blame me for your fears.
OK, sure, whatever.
You'll still be afraid.

*I wonder how your god will feel about the good work you are doing, frightening away his children.*

He's probably wondering why you can't think for yourself, seeing as you're just quoting tiassa.

*Originally posted by Xelios
It's not certain that God created the universe*

Some people would just look around and see it, but not you.

*Both are perfectly acceptable ways to live your life*

Not quite.

...because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you...
(Hosea 4:6, KJV).

You can change that, by changing your mind.

"...because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you... "
"...You can change that, by changing your mind..."


Tony 1 replies:

"....Oh no, how horrible"..."Only stupid people would do that..."

Lmao ;)

Have a lovely day Tony
Glad to see you are a good sport!

Oh no, the Evil Rotating Quotes!!!!

Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.
(Psalms 112:3, KJV).

I get it!

You want to be broke all your life, living under a curse.
I thought you may have wanted a good life.

Mind you, that quote thing was relatively clever, although I think Teg and machaon and a few others may have tried it first.
In any case, if you want to be broke, ill and cursed, don't let me stop you.

> Who made God?


We did.

The lottery fallacy.

You're just gambling that you're right.

Out of the millions of possible gods, real or imaginary, you're counting on the one true God not being there.

You lose.

All you "did" was make a picture in your head of the wrong god.