If Everything must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then, who created God?

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?

that is the best single argument against creationism. the answer is: god(s) don’t exist.

i think god has always existed. just like the universe.

that is the best single argument against creationism. the answer is: god(s) don’t exist.

Why so?

I don't see why God's nature should be constricted to the requirement that God was created at some point. Why should it be that way?

I also dont get that....why did god have to be created???

Imagine a dimension in which there is no time, no beginnings, no endings, everything is infinite and eternal.

Imagine a dimension in which Barney, the purple dinosaur, is the supreme being. Such a boundless thing is just as likely.

The truth of the matter is, it could be our own universe that has existed for an infinity. Suggesting that there is a god that created a universe implies that there was a god that created the universe and god that this one was in and so on for an endless chain of creators. In otherwords, poppycock.

Again, what necessitates a creator of God?

It's actually extremely likely that there exists dimensions that we are unaware of. Or are you of the dumb-ass "we already know everything there is to know" mentality?

obviously nobody could know who created God. And why does it matter?

God is infinite, he's been around for ever. It's a concept we can't understand, so don't try understanding it or you'll....

get confused

never go outside and play

never get a girlfriend

become depressed

eventually die, and no-one will miss you


My advice is just concentrate on living. Seriously, what do you hope to gain from knowing who created God? So you can worship that guy!?

come on, get real, grow up.


If it makes you feel better, I created God. Me. but i'm not telling you how.

If we are "unaware" of them, how then do you quantify the "extremely likely" part. Even proponents of Multiverse Theory don't use the term "extremely likely."

I certainly don't think we "know all there is to know," and this is one of the reasons why I view the gods of human religions as nonsense. At one time, Christians believed that Haley's comet was a message from their god. Now we know that thisis simply a ball of ice caught in the Sun's gravity and in a regular, predictable orbit. I believe the more we "know" and discover, the more we will invalidate more of the various superstitions of religions.

i think most probably God is a being created by human's imagination to explain the unknowns.

Then again, maybe this is the once that "evolution" produced the first SILF,
Sentient Intelligent Life Form, and, I couldn't agree with SkinWalker more on the
point of "religion". Truth, is all I seek too. :eek:

Hi
Well there are 3 ways to answer this question the first has allready been answered by definition God doesnt need a Creator, but some of you has allready disagreed with that.
Ths second is the law of cause and effect. Scietifically the Cause has to be greater than the effect because of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. From this we can assume that wahtever cuased the universe (through Big bang or which ever way) has to be bigger than the universe. Now if you go back and back you have one of 2 options either you get an infinitely big Cause (God) or you realize that inifinte regression is absurb. How can you get here from an infinite number of cause before the time (Hilberts hotel and the question of how long will it take to climb to the halfway, quaterway etc point of a bottomless pit?). So therefore whatever cause the first effect must be infitely Big, or at least bigger than the universe ie. There has to be a creator of some kind and that is God.
The 3rd i'll hav to work on writing down because at this stage i have only explained it but it once again reles on the prinicple of cause and effect but also the law of non-contradiction. will try to put it inot words asap, but i cant garuntee anything
Hopw this at least make you think
Bye
Jako

If we are "unaware" of them, how then do you quantify the "extremely likely" part. Even proponents of Multiverse Theory don't use the term "extremely likely."

Because we were "unaware" of all scientific knowledge until discovering it, investigating it, understanding it. If advancements in science and technology are continually increasing at an increasing rate, then it's apparent that we don't know much to date, in relation to what there is to know. That is what's been proven true throughout history. We were unaware of molecular structures, bacteria, viruses, and dust mites until we developed a microscope. We were unaware of the existence of other galaxies before we developed a telescope.

I certainly don't think we "know all there is to know," and this is one of the reasons why I view the gods of human religions as nonsense. At one time, Christians believed that Haley's comet was a message from their god. Now we know that thisis simply a ball of ice caught in the Sun's gravity and in a regular, predictable orbit. I believe the more we "know" and discover, the more we will invalidate more of the various superstitions of religions.

God can use a ball of ice to send a message. God can use anything He wants to mean different things to different people. Science and God are not mutually exclusive. Science is the how, God is the why. God designed and created everything that we discover with our science.

It's funny how "messages from god" become more and more obscure and vague in direct proportion to the technology and advancements of society.

When only a few, elite people possessed the technology of writing and the ability to record an event was limited to anecdote alone, the Judeo-Christian god spoke directly to his/her cult followers. Now, in an era of cameras on every cell phone, voice-recorders, and methods of measuring most observed events, god only speaks to those we are least likely to listen to anecdotes from.

Speaking to god is considered prayer. When god speaks to you, it's schizophrenia.

It's funny how "messages from god" become more and more obscure and vague in direct proportion to the technology and advancements of society.

When only a few, elite people possessed the technology of writing and the ability to record an event was limited to anecdote alone, the Judeo-Christian god spoke directly to his/her cult followers. Now, in an era of cameras on every cell phone, voice-recorders, and methods of measuring most observed events, god only speaks to those we are least likely to listen to anecdotes from.

Speaking to god is considered prayer. When god speaks to you, it's schizophrenia.


That's your opinion, and it is because you don't want to believe in God. And the messages that I've received from Him have been very specific, loud, and clear.

It's funny how "messages from god" become more and more obscure and vague in direct proportion to the technology and advancements of society.

When only a few, elite people possessed the technology of writing and the ability to record an event was limited to anecdote alone, the Judeo-Christian god spoke directly to his/her cult followers. Now, in an era of cameras on every cell phone, voice-recorders, and methods of measuring most observed events, god only speaks to those we are least likely to listen to anecdotes from.

Speaking to god is considered prayer. When god speaks to you, it's schizophrenia.

The problem you have is your perception of Christians is distorted by Christians. God doesn't agree with religious people. Does he hate them? Maybe, but I don't claim to know what goes through a mind of a being who created the universe. I don't like "Christians" because they give the term "Christian" a bad name. Corinthians and Romans talks about these "Christians"

"Christians" put God in their own box to their own level of understanding. They want to believe that things like Haley's comet is a sign from God. Who knows, I don't care really. Everything is relative with "Christians".

The one thing that I have found in my journey is that if you don't believe in God, you may as well kill yourself because sinning (ignoring everyone and everything but yourself) day in and day out is pointless to eternity, and doing good is pointless to eternity. Everything will pass away and we forget the works of good men who were our fore fathers, just as I will be forgotten.

So, if you are going to believe in a god, then the God of Abraham is THE God because it is the ONLY one that is the least poppycock with circumstantial evidence that it is the truth. It is the ONLY ancient belief today that was not made in the last few hundred years. It is the ONLY belief where one could have a good (even if controversial) argument that every prophecy told has come to pass.

So, we are left with the choice. Do we believe or not. Do we follow God or not. That has always been the choice for milleniums.
If we choose to believe and there is a God, we have everything to gain.
If we choose to believe and there is no God, we have lived a great life that will echo an eternity.
If we choose not to believe and there is a God, we have everything to lose.
If we choose not to believe and there is no God, who cares (we are dead anyway).

So, the best choice is to believe in the most evident religion, in the hopes that it is true. That is the beginnings of having faith.

I find it ironically exciting to see that the more someone tries to disprove Christianity, the more they find the truth in it.

I sought the truth and I found it by looking for evidence to disprove the existence of God. It was not an easy road afterwards, but I follow God today. I am a screwup and a sinner, but I know I am and I want to do better for the good of God and mankind.

Again, what necessitates a creator of God?
what necessitates a creator of man?
I also don’t get that....why did god have to be created???
why did the universe have to be created?
I don't see why God's nature should be constricted to the requirement that God was created at some point. Why should it be that way?
why should the universe's nature be constricted to the requirement that the universe was created at some point?

the simple answer is: if you acknowledge that everything does not need a creator, then there is no reason to hold onto a untested, nonsensical, and antiquated theory of god.

If Everything must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then, who created God?

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?

Good question. No one knows.

If everthing must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then who/what created the universe? Who/what created the electron?

Energy is constant, but space(void) cannot create the electron. There must be something or someone who created the electron. The dust of the universe.

So, we have a choice. Accept the creation on faith that someone/something created the electron, or that the electron created itself.

Why is it so hard to accept the creation by faith. We open a can of greenbeans in faith that it is not going to poison us. We have faith that we won't be killed in a car accident on the way to work.

If you don't believe in a being, then you are rolling the dice, and the odds are against you. If you believe in a being, then you have nothing to lose (right or wrong). We all want our own way so bad that we forget about the homeless person down the street, or the hurting widow with children. And we sleep at night knowing that our belly is full and nothing else matters because we feel good inside, but we are again hungry the next day.

Wouldn't it be nice to not be hungry again? The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. Folks, I am truly satisfied. I am stressed and in debt over my ears, people close to me die like flies, and my country is turning to the crapper, but I am content and happy because God has always brought me through for years and he will feed me tomorrow.

Why does it take some tragic event for people to realize that we need God? We think we are immortal, until we are faced with death.

I hope that God is there on the other side of death as he promises, but if I'm wrong I've had the best life, and I can die happy with a clear conscience. I choose to hope and have faith that God created himself, because I'm tired of losing when I gamble. Life has shown me what it has to offer, and I am reminded that I don't belong here by the drug dealer on the corner and the pedifiler next door. I am liar, but I know I am, and I look to one who is perfect to fullfill his promises to make me clean. He gives me a peace that is past understanding.

God arose as a manifestation of our unconscious mind. That's not to say it doesn't exist. If people believe in Him, and act on that belief, then God exists as a force in people's lives. Wether He really exists separately from our minds is unknowable.

Energy is constant, but space(void) cannot create the electron.
don't be so sure about that. ever hear of quantum foam?
Why is it so hard to accept the creation by faith. We open a can of greenbeans in faith that it is not going to poison us. We have faith that we won't be killed in a car accident on the way to work.
I have faith in my green beans and car because of proven fact about their safety record. god is not based on facts or records.
If you don't believe in a being, then you are rolling the dice, and the odds are against you. If you believe in a being, then you have nothing to lose (right or wrong).
you do realize that this statement makes no sense, right? how is it ok to believe in the wrong god, but not ok do believe in no god? moreover, believing in a god will never be a winner, because you are on longer living your own life, you are living the one you were told to live by some book.
Why does it take some tragic event for people to realize that we need God? We think we are immortal, until we are faced with death.
because god is a coping mechanism created by our own minds to help us survive.

I hope that God is there on the other side of death as he promises
why not find out right now? grab a symbol of your god go to a place where you will surely be killed if you try to convert people (Christian could do this in Iraq or Afghanistan pretty easily). better yet, stop eating and drinking, your god will surely reward your faith that you will be saved. I mean, why stay here if you can go to heaven now?

please have a friend or family member email me a copy of your death certificate, so I can know how strong your faith really was big_cato@hotmail.com

nothingness is the only "thing" which doesn't need a cause. this way, it's also the first cause, and the only necessity. it's the greatest truth because if something else exists, and that stops, nothingness immidiately takes its place.

causes probably exists only in the human mind. we never saw our birth and we will not see our death. so maybe we're eternal.

i think this world and everything in it is probably created by human imagination. maybe mind can be likened to a blank paper, there's nothing on it, but everything can be put there, with some imagination. i can't "imagine" anything existing separately, outside my mind.

atheists and those who believe in god continue to argue because there's truth in both. maybe in the future one of them will win, or they will merge (sort of)

what a load of crap.
nothingness is the only "thing" which doesn't need a cause. this way, it's also the first cause, and the only necessity. it's the greatest truth because if something else exists, and that stops, nothingness immediately takes its place.
nothingness can't take anything's place, it has not place.

i think this world and everything in it is probably created by human imagination. maybe mind can be likened to a blank paper, there's nothing on it, but everything can be put there, with some imagination.
that has been thought of (plato's "The Allegory of the Cave" google it). however, it does nothing for us, because if everything is illusion, then there is no point in living, I suggest you take your theory and join jayleew in death. if you believe in your theory that is.

who/what created the universe? Who/what created the electron?

Maybe the electron (and the universe) was always there. That is just as likely as a creator that doesn't exist in the universe or before the universe. Indeed, the creator hypothesis implies that it had to create itself or be the result of another creator. -or that the creator was always there. If that's possible, then the universe being infinitely old is possible and more probable, since we have evidence for the universe but none for Supernaturalist concepts like creators.

thank god (hehe, pun intended) for another rational person.

The problem you have is your perception of Christians is distorted by Christians. God doesn't agree with religious people.

When is the last time Gawd showed up face to face and spoke to you personally? How do you know God doesn't agree with religious people?


Does he hate them? Maybe, but I don't claim to know what goes through a mind of a being who created the universe. I don't like "Christians" because they give the term "Christian" a bad name. Corinthians and Romans talks about these "Christians"

Christians give not only give Christians a bad name, but they give Christian God a bad name too.


"Christians" put God in their own box to their own level of understanding. They want to believe that things like Haley's comet is a sign from God. Who knows, I don't care really. Everything is relative with "Christians".

Everything is relative with Christian God. He was so pissed at people sporting tatoo that it was a death penalty prior to Jesus. Now is okay with it. What about now? The society has changed drastically from 2000 years ago. What does he like now?


The one thing that I have found in my journey is that if you don't believe in God, you may as well kill yourself because sinning (ignoring everyone and everything but yourself) day in and day out is pointless to eternity, and doing good is pointless to eternity.


What is sinning? Wearing clothing made of two pieces of fabric was sinning but then it wasn't. What about now? God hasn't told any one anything for 2000 years. How do you know what is sinning and what is not?


So, if you are going to believe in a god, then the God of Abraham is THE God because it is the ONLY one that is the least poppycock with circumstantial evidence that it is the truth. It is the ONLY ancient belief today that was not made in the last few hundred years. It is the ONLY belief where one could have a good (even if controversial) argument that every prophecy told has come to pass.

God of Abraham came from the Pagans as proven by comtemporary scholarship. Jesus = Horus = Krishna. Jesus is doom's day cult leader and a lunatic.


So, we are left with the choice. Do we believe or not. Do we follow God or not. That has always been the choice for milleniums.
If we choose to believe and there is a God, we have everything to gain.
If we choose to believe and there is no God, we have lived a great life that will echo an eternity.
If we choose not to believe and there is a God, we have everything to lose.
If we choose not to believe and there is no God, who cares (we are dead anyway).

Pascal's wagers. Yawn. It's so stupid.


So, the best choice is to believe in the most evident religion, in the hopes that it is true. That is the beginnings of having faith.

How can believe anything without prove be a virtue?


I find it ironically exciting to see that the more someone tries to disprove Christianity, the more they find the truth in it.

Christianty is already disproven. It's just that Christians are so biased that they are unwilling to consider the evidence objectively.

however, it does nothing for us, because if everything is illusion, then there is no point in living, I suggest you take your theory and join jayleew in death. if you believe in your theory that is.

Some people think: "If the universe is illusory, it is of no interest; I'd rather die". This is a mistake: "illusive" only means "part of my mind". And for this reason, an illusive universe is much more interesting than a real one: if real, it would be a foreigner to me, there would be no possibility of communication or love with it. I could not even be conscious of it.

Fortunately the universe is inside me; it is me. My mind. So, I can communicate with it, I can love it, and I can change it by changing my thoughts.

there would be no possibility of communication or love with it
wrong, that is one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard (nothing personal, I just think you need to stop thinking existentially, it's is pointless).

I can change it by changing my thoughts.
fundamentally, you cannot. you can make decisions to do things that affect other parts of the universe, but you have no abnormal power over it. if I choose to mow my lawn I change part of the universe. but to claim you can change fundamental aspects of the universe is preposterous.

p.s. I will thank you not to post any more irrationality.

i think most probably God is a being created by human's imagination to explain the unknowns.
exactly... god is the answer to the inexplicable!

There has to be a creator of some kind and that is God.
then why isn't there a greater cause behind god's creation?

i think most probably God is a being created by human's imagination to explain the unknowns.


can you please change your avatar it's very scary.

then dont look at his avatar.

can you please change your avatar it's very scary.
can you please change your id it's very scary! :p

Why is it so hard to accept the creation by faith. We open a can of greenbeans in faith that it is not going to poison us. We have faith that we won't be killed in a car accident on the way to work.
Don't confuse the "faith" required for religion with the "faith" that is actually nothing more than a matter of probability.

Every time you open a can of greenbeans "in faith", you are actually merely coming to the conclusion that you are probably not going to die from being po1soned. It's a matter of probability. Nothing more. And it's entirely subconscious.
If you had three cans of greenbeans, and you and two friends opened one each, and the other two died from poison before you ate yours, would you still eat from yours? No? Why not? Do you not have "faith" in your greenbeans anymore? Or is it because subconsciously the odds are now not what they are that yours isn't po1soned.

This is the same "faith" that you place in friends.
You say you have "faith" in them because you have built up, subconsciously, through cummulative direct observation, a probability that they will continue to perform as such.

Likewise, you don't place "faith" in a stranger - you take a gamble that they will act according to your wishes - again this is probability. You probably wouldn't be surprised if they didn't act according to your wishes.

Religious "faith" is different.
This requires an absolute belief (i.e. 100%) that you are correct, on zero previous actual observation.
There is no probability that you might be wrong - despite logic to the contrary.


p.s. why is this site filtering out the word "po1soned"?

can you please change your id it's very scary! :p


my ID???

my name you mean.....????

back to the topic.

GOD created the universe. and God is inifinite. No thing created God.

If Everything must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then, who created God?

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?


Human has created all the gods, all the hells, all the demons.

GOD created the universe. and God is inifinite. No thing created God.As likely as a large purple dinosaur-shaped entity holding our Universe in its podgy hands while it sings inane songs devised to drive children mad, or as likely as an infinite other possibilities.

Hi...There has to be a creator of some kind and that is God...Whako

The question is no longer if god created everything, the question is how did god existed and what created it.

If god can exist whithout a reason then why cant universe or anthing for that matter.

wrong, that is one of the stupidest thing I have ever heard (nothing personal, I just think you need to stop thinking existentially, it's is pointless).

you can't be conscious of something outside your consciousness. so... if the world existed apart from our mind, we couldn't interact with it.

Hi
Didnt you guys read my reply on how infinte regression is absurd and leads to an infinite creator anyway, no matter which way you take.
Ok I'll try and put the other part inot words now as well

Cause and effect is a principle that follows from the law of non-contradction. Now cause and effct is just eevery effect has a cause. The law of non-contradiction (also called many other names in philosophy) basically states that something cannot be A and not-A in the same relationship. Now in out universe things change from being something to being something differnt, all of these changes occur with time, knowledge and position. The Bible and most other main stream religions teach of a all knowing, omnipresent, God that is outside time. So if the universe can be assumed to exist and astrophysics assumes so many exotic particles (see my response on Is Religion stupid for more info on that). Now we make this assumption (now I'm not proving God exists but that if God exist he doesnt need a creator). As a Christian I must assume that God is outside time, knows everything and is all-present. So if all of these are assumed then God cannot change his relationship in any way or form form and becuase He is outside of time, he has to both exist and not exist at the same time, therefore breaking the law of non-contradiction. THerefore if God does exist then he deosnt follow by our normal laws, and not the priniciple of cuase and effct. Therefore according to our definitions He has no cause, and therefore he cannot be created, that is if He exists He cannot be created

god can't be understood by thinking (observing). our intelligence is yet limited. animals can't learn things humans can. there's also things humans can't yet understand.

consciousness (mind) can exist at many places at the same time. time exists in the human mind. if no one observes the world, it does not exist. in nothingness, there are no laws.

i think things can be A and non-A. there's several examples but i forgot them.

As soon as this universe breaks the law of non contradiciotn we might as well stop studying physics, shemistry, biology, and maths, because all theses sciences are completely based on this law of logic, so as soon as you can find a real example give it and it'll either need to be disproved or we should stop studying physics maths chemistry and biology

Speaking to god is considered prayer. When god speaks to you, it's schizophrenia.

God still talks. There have been numerous prophets throughout the history of mankind all of which spoke with God. Either that or they got extremely lucky with what they predicted, and I don't believe in luck.

The science of reality is not physics but a science of consciousness. We cannot be conscious of something outside our consciousness, so... the universe is in our mind. What we perceive as outside, is actually inside our mind. It might be hard to accept though.

The science of reality is not physics but a science of consciousness. We cannot be conscious of something outside our consciousness, so... the universe is in our mind. What we perceive as outside, is actually inside our mind. It might be hard to accept though.

You are obviosly not a scientist but only a philospher, and accepting realy bad philosophy at that, at least in my viewpoint, because if reality is just in our minds, then how come most of us have the same reality. And if reality is only in our minds that leads to relativism, which alos in turns leads to the anihilation of physics and such other scineces, so no matter what you argue unless you are a realist, and rationalist, as was shown by many scientist philospohpers such as Jaki, Popper and Kuhn, Newton, Galileo, Einstien, Bohr etc you cannot study science and you must throw science out the door because ther are no absolutes and thereofre science for you might be differnt for science from me. Therefore no matter how you try and argue this you cannot believe what you believe unless you make compomises but as soon as you do that you have to become a realist which is against the whole thing of reality being in just our minds

Now we make this assumption... As a Christian I must assume that God is outside time, knows everything and is all-present. So if all of these are assumed then God cannot change his relationship in any way or form form and becuase He is outside of time, he has to both exist and not exist at the same time, therefore breaking the law of non-contradiction. THerefore if God does exist then he deosnt follow by our normal laws, and not the priniciple of cuase and effct. Therefore according to our definitions He has no cause, and therefore he cannot be created, that is if He exists He cannot be createdSo what you have so eloquently managed to say is that if God exists outside time (eternally and infinitely) then he exists outside of time (eternally and infinitely).

So if you define something as "A" then, quite miraculously, the thing is "A".

Wow.

Incredible.

If I'd never heard of Begging the Question, this is it.

What i said, is if God exists and he is the christian God then the laws of logic as we know it doesnt apply to him
thats it. Because if he needed a creator (cuase) then he breaks the law of non-contradicion. And by the way it is exatcly the way bing bang therists argue, and there arguments are "logical" and scientific so either you accept this or reject it but then you have to throw the big bang out with this argument.

worlds within worlds.
Gods within Gods.
Creators and created.
Endless cycles.
Birth and death.
Exhale and Inhale.
The universe moves.

Only the enlightened can fathom such things.

And by the way it is exatcly the way bing bang therists argue, and there arguments are "logical" and scientific so either you accept this or reject it but then you have to throw the big bang out with this argument.
you are forgetting one fundamental piece of evidence. we know the universe exist, and makes sense. we don’t know god exists, and if it did it would not make sense.

god can't be understood by thinking (observing).
that is what you call a "ad-hock" argument. how to you know god can't be understood? did he tell you? if so, how did you understand it?

WE know the universe needed a cause, what was that cause??
We know that if God exists then he doesnt need a cause (inifinte regression and also law of non-contradiction, my past somewhere on this).
So if the universe needed a cause then that cause must be bigger, becuase of entropy.
Also as someone else said (not that I agree with him/her) but reality might just be in our minds (now i know as scientists we cannot accpet this as true but it is still a philosphical viewpoint).
But in the end I believe it comes down to what Ken Ham once said: "You have to choose which bias is the best bias to be biased with." For me the most logiac bias to be biased with is that there does exist a God, other wise how what would have caused the universe? And if God exists as I argued from 2 points now, one having been misunderstood and I will work on presenting that argument better, but normally i require alot of drawings and diagrams, but yes i did assume A, but all all I siad with that is if we assume A then A does not need a cuase. so you (forgot who siad that) rightly said I assumed A and therefore A must be. But in essence it is a proof by deduction I assume A then get that if A is then A cannot not have been there A must be, mathematically its is L.H.S = (some eqaution) R.H.S. Althought this was just done in words.
Anyway wat I am saying extra in this point is that I believe that the best bias to be biased with is assume that there is a creator

don't be so sure about that. ever hear of quantum foam?

No, I have never heard of quantum foam. Besides, when scientists can predict the weather at least 90% seven days from now, I will have more faith in science. Science is nothing more than observation and hypothesis. How do we know that there is not another, more efficient, way to count (instead of mathematics). All these things are theories. Some theories work most of the time, but they are all imperfect.


I have faith in my green beans and car because of proven fact about their safety record. god is not based on facts or records.

Then, you are choosing not done your homework....or you think you know all there is to know. This is ignorance. I can give you countless records of countless people (myself included) that God is faithful and has a proven safety record. Besides that, there is physical evidence of God. Have you seen "The Search for the Real Mount Sainai"? Every account of Moses is found behind enemy lines in Saudi Arabi (Midian), including the burnt mountain. The Saudi's guard this mountain because of its implications to their own faith. The countryside is barren, but they guard this empty mountain, and the locals know what it is. You ask them, they tell you it is Mount Sainai like we would say "down the street is a 7-eleven." However, this is not the only proof. There is countless evidence.

you do realize that this statement makes no sense, right? how is it ok to believe in the wrong god, but not ok do believe in no god? moreover, believing in a god will never be a winner, because you are on longer living your own life, you are living the one you were told to live by some book.

If there is a God, then he is a God of eternity and was not made by one man, nor was he found three hundred years ago. All religions are founded by one, except Christianity who have many. Believing in the wrong god is the same as not believing in God.

We always have a choice. The faith is about a choice. I do not have to live as the Bible dictates. In fact, there are times when I am weak (because I am not God). I sin. I repent. I am made clean, but I still reap what I sow. I am living my own life. I do what I want, not what everyone else is doing. I am not peer pressued into being like everyone else. The only way to be yourself is to give up living like someone else.

Trust me, I have been on the flip side of the coin, because God has made me like you. I am, by nature, a skeptic. It is good to be so. The difference between you an I is that I did my homework. I still struggle with the fact that the Bible is written by human hand. But, I have faith in the words of Christ. If Christ is who he says, then everything he says must be true, and no one can dispute the existence of Christ. There is contraversy of who he is, but he was. I choose to believe because I have hope.

because god is a coping mechanism created by our own minds to help us survive.

why not find out right now? grab a symbol of your god go to a place where you will surely be killed if you try to convert people (Christian could do this in Iraq or Afghanistan pretty easily). better yet, stop eating and drinking, your god will surely reward your faith that you will be saved. I mean, why stay here if you can go to heaven now?

please have a friend or family member email me a copy of your death certificate, so I can know how strong your faith really was big_cato@hotmail.com

Get real. You sound like a foolish "Christian." All you know of Christianity is from foolish "Christians." The kind that come to your house and think that they can save you. You have yet to experience the love a true Christian who will be there when you least expect him and when you need him the most. But, they are few. It is sad that the world is full of "Christians", and they will perish on the day of judgement, along with the rebellious.

What you ask of me is called tempting God. That is what Satan did to Jesus in the desert. He said, "Throw yourself on the rocks and surely angels will come and save you, then I will believe and worship your God."

You can test God, but not tempt him. It is prideful for me to think God should save me, a sinner. I have hope that in the end he will remember his own promises to see the blood of Christ dripping on my limbs.

If I went to heaven now I would be breaking my faith and that is to love my neighbor more than myself. I desire to leave this world of misery, but I stay to keep the commandment and serve mankind with love. Those I know and love and love me would be the weaker if I left today. God would not have me do that, so I will not tempt him to save me for the sake of my family and me. My work here is not done, I cannot leave until it is completed.

For me the most logiac bias to be biased with is that there does exist a God, other wise how what would have caused the universe? And if God exists as I argued from 2 points now, one having been misunderstood and I will work on presenting that argument better, but normally i require alot of drawings and diagrams, but yes i did assume A, but all all I siad with that is if we assume A then A does not need a cuase. so you (forgot who siad that) rightly said I assumed A and therefore A must be. But in essence it is a proof by deduction I assume A then get that if A is then A cannot not have been there A must be, mathematically its is L.H.S = (some eqaution) R.H.S. Althought this was just done in words.
Anyway wat I am saying extra in this point is that I believe that the best bias to be biased with is assume that there is a creatorSo you say that the Universe was caused - and you are labelling the cause as "God" - and you are now worshipping it.

And your argument about assuming "A" therefore "A" is true is entirely begging of said question. You may have used different words on either side of your equation, but the two lots of words both meant the same thing:
On one side: "I must assume that God is outside time."
On the other: "He has no cause, and therefore he cannot be created."
Surely "outside time" equates to "has no cause".
So if we assume A then A.

But please, if I'm still missing it, feel free to diagram to your heart's contentment. :D

How do we know that there is not another, more efficient, way to count (instead of mathematics). All these things are theories.Mathematics is not a theory. It is a tool.
Base 10 probably isn't the most efficient way to count.
Computers use binary, and machine code, I think, is hexadecimal (base-16). But that may be purely a result of their architecture. I guess you'd have to see what base suited the human architecture.

I can give you countless records of countless people (myself included) that God is faithful and has a proven safety record.Please do.

Besides that, there is physical evidence of God. Have you seen "The Search for the Real Mount Sainai"? Every account of Moses is found behind enemy lines in Saudi Arabi (Midian), including the burnt mountain. The Saudi's guard this mountain because of its implications to their own faith. The countryside is barren, but they guard this empty mountain, and the locals know what it is. You ask them, they tell you it is Mount Sainai like we would say "down the street is a 7-eleven." However, this is not the only proof. There is countless evidence.Please realise that evidence of the existence of Mt. Sinai is not evidence of God. It is merely evidence of Mt. Sinai.

If Christ is who he says, then everything he says must be true, and no one can dispute the existence of Christ. There is contraversy of who he is, but he was. I choose to believe because I have hope.Hmmm. Begging the question.
If Jesus is the Son of God then God exists. Woohoo!
And you choose to believe because you want to. It doesn't make it true.

You have yet to experience the love a true Christian who will be there when you least expect him and when you need him the most.No - this is not Christianity. This is love. Platonic or otherwise, it is love. And not the sole property of Christians or even the religious.

And I don't think you, sitting in front of a PC somewhere, are in a position to tell people what they have or haven't experienced in their life while they sit in front of their PC 1000s of miles away.

And people still want to see mount Sinai.

Dont you realise the bible is metaphor and code.

When it says moses went up mount sinai to talk to god, the mountain moses climbed was to his higher conscienceness.

so when moses went up mount sinai to talk to god he did not physically go anywhere, he accessed higher states of being / enlightenment to comunicate with his higher self (God).

Religion is about matters spiritual but people still cant see past the material.

No, I have never heard of quantum foam.
it seem you are the one who has not done your homework. I know all about "Sinai" but it is only hear say. if someone said there was a 7-11 down the street I would believe him or her, not because their saying so was evidence, but because I don't think they would have a reason to lie. if I didn’t trust the person, then I could go down the street and find out for my self. I can't do that with any biblical "evidence"

I can give you countless records of countless people (myself included) that God is faithful and has a proven safety record
sorry, I said records or facts, a record alone is not sufficient (anyone can write down a lie or misconception), I should have said "records and fact"

you have a point in your argument against death, but you could work non-stop to help people. work a day job (which helps society) then use your money to buy crystal meth, and then help people all nigh long for the rest of your life.

Maybe the electron (and the universe) was always there. That is just as likely as a creator that doesn't exist in the universe or before the universe. Indeed, the creator hypothesis implies that it had to create itself or be the result of another creator. -or that the creator was always there. If that's possible, then the universe being infinitely old is possible and more probable, since we have evidence for the universe but none for Supernaturalist concepts like creators.

The universe was not always there. Science proves that is ever expanding, implying that the cosmic bodies are moving outwardly, which implies that they were at one time close together because of Newton's law.

Check out the New York Times Bestseller, "The Case for a Creator", if you seek the truth. It was written by Lee Strobel who writes, "My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically, so was my later journey to God." Time and time again I read or hear about learned people who seek to disprove God with intelligence, and end up finding God's design. I myself made the decision to follow God after researching Darwin's Evolution and the evidence supporting and disproving it. It was Darwin's own theory that disproved his theory.

If life is not by chance, then it is of design.
If life is by design, then the design was created.

Can you prove life was by chance? Go ahead and try. An honest effort could take up to a year of research. It took me a few months to compile enough evidence to make a decision. Luckily, I came across an author who did a lot of scientific research already! Unfortunately, that was years ago. That's a good thing, because everyone needs to make up their own mind about things, it does little good for us to debate, but it is engaging.

The universe was not always there. Science proves that is ever expanding, implying that the cosmic bodies are moving outwardly, which implies that they were at one time close together because of Newton's law.Theories debate whether the universe will always expand, or will contract again and go through a bang/shrink/bang/shrink cycle.
But they are all theories - so please don't quote them as fact.

Check out the New York Times Bestseller, "The Case for a Creator", if you seek the truth.This is not truth but one man's theories and ideas.

It was written by Lee Strobel who writes, "My road to atheism was paved by science...but, ironically, so was my later journey to God." Time and time again I read or hear about learned people who seek to disprove God with intelligence, and end up finding God's design.No matter how many people "find God's design" it is still unprovable. As is his non-existence. But you are content in your "prove he doesn't exist" fallacy.

If life is not by chance, then it is of design.
If life is by design, then the design was created.

Can you prove life was by chance? Go ahead and try. An honest effort could take up to a year of research. It is your task to prove the statement that "Life is of design". You are stating the case - so you prove it. The burden of proof is on you, not on those who don't claim it is by design, not even on those who claim a lack of designer, but it lies on the person claiming the existence of something.

It took me a few months to compile enough evidence to make a decision.A decision is not proof.
If you feel your "evidence" exists and is sufficient, by all means take it to a scientific journal. Hell, bring it here for scrutiny.

You are obviosly not a scientist but only a philospher, and accepting realy bad philosophy at that, at least in my viewpoint, because if reality is just in our minds, then how come most of us have the same reality. And if reality is only in our minds that leads to relativism, which alos in turns leads to the anihilation of physics and such other scineces, so no matter what you argue unless you are a realist, and rationalist, as was shown by many scientist philospohpers such as Jaki, Popper and Kuhn, Newton, Galileo, Einstien, Bohr etc you cannot study science and you must throw science out the door because ther are no absolutes and thereofre science for you might be differnt for science from me. Therefore no matter how you try and argue this you cannot believe what you believe unless you make compomises but as soon as you do that you have to become a realist which is against the whole thing of reality being in just our minds

You don't have to believe it. You don't believe me because everything is subjective, and there is no objective reality.

I'm not talking about science of personal minds. There is only one mind. We can't be sure of a material universe, but we can be sure of mind.

When is the last time Gawd showed up face to face and spoke to you personally? How do you know God doesn't agree with religious people?

Because it describes "Christians" in Romans and Corithians. Jesus himself said, "Woe to you Pharisees and teachers of the law" The Pharisees of that time are no different than "Christians" today. They want their own way and make their religion excuse themselves.

Christians give not only give Christians a bad name, but they give Christian God a bad name too.

Agreed.

Everything is relative with Christian God. He was so pissed at people sporting tatoo that it was a death penalty prior to Jesus. Now is okay with it. What about now? The society has changed drastically from 2000 years ago. What does he like now?

No, that is "Christian" foolishness and a lie. God sees everything as for him or against. Nothing is relative. It has always been that way, and it always will be that way. There are only two laws that we must keep, and the whole law is kept by the two. Prior to Jesus, Moses did the best he could, but people still screwed up. It was people who were pissed at people sporting tatoos, not God. They were a proud people because of tradition. God was pissed at people with sin in their hearts. God has always had the same law, it is us who changed the law to fit our needs. Jesus fullfilled the law and perfected it, so when he comes again, that's it, no more grace the plan is perfectly complete. There is a breakingpoint even with God, but he does not want to see anyone perish. We are the rebels, not God.


What is sinning? Wearing clothing made of two pieces of fabric was sinning but then it wasn't. What about now? God hasn't told any one anything for 2000 years. How do you know what is sinning and what is not?

As I said before, sin is sin. It is anything that breaks the two commandments of love that Jesus gave. Anything that breaks the 10 commandments breaks the two.

God hasn't told any one anything because it is complete. There is no need of prophets anymore because of Jesus. He was the ultimate prophet, he was God on Earth. You know what is sinning because you know what is sinning from the Holy Ghost and from Jesus Christ who speak the same thing.


God of Abraham came from the Pagans as proven by comtemporary scholarship. Jesus = Horus = Krishna. Jesus is doom's day cult leader and a lunatic.

Who knows. What if they are wrong? Who was he who wrote that lie? Abraham was a screwup, just like me. But he had faith and hope and it was counted for righteousness. God knows what we know, and we are only accountable for what we know. That is reason for the Tribulation to come.

How can believe anything without prove be a virtue?

Christianty is already disproven. It's just that Christians are so biased that they are unwilling to consider the evidence objectively.

That is a far-fetched statement to assert that Christianity is disproven. If it were, we would not be talking about this today. Many Christians are biased, not all of them. You have a fallacy in your argument.

Like I said, I am objective. I realize how unbelievable the story is. My doubts about it are so head-strong at times, but I stay the course to whatever end in the hope that it is true. As I said before, the Bible is hard for me accept as fact because it was written by human hand. But, I choose to accept it by faith and hope. And because of Jesus Christ, who was real. And because the accounts of Jesus. And because of the unexplained miracles of today that baffles science. Clinically dead people getting up after the prayer of a child...that sort of thing. If you want to believe in God, go to Africa where devil worship and witchcraft is pervailent. Curses, hexes, and spells are real. That is where the battle ground of spirituality is. If you want to find God, sell everything you have and live on the street with the homeless. The strongest Christians are those that have came from the grips of Satan. I have learned more about life from visiting with the homeless than from church on Sunday.

If I don't believe, and there is God, I'm up a creek in a lake of fire. Are you willing to take the chance? Besides, the rewards of a life spent for others is so contentful. Even Budah knew the secret of peace.

It is my open mind and skepticism that brought me to the belief I have now. If you would only stop believing what you are hearing from other people (including me) and do the work yourself, you would find the truth. Test the sources you have for objectivity before you go off changing your view. Not every argument is solid, even if it appears to be. I'm sure you know this.

Religious "faith" is different.
This requires an absolute belief (i.e. 100%) that you are correct, on zero previous actual observation.
There is no probability that you might be wrong - despite logic to the contrary.

The problem with the English language is that we have the same word for many meanings. Religious faith is not quantative. Faith as small as a mustard seed is still faith. Faith is not the belief that you are correct. Faith is a choice to believe and hope in that something is what you think. In Dictionary.Com it would be more like the third meaning: Faith is Loyalty. Loyalty is the choice to believe in someone. I do not believe in God 100%, but maybe 80-90%. However, I have 100% faith in him. I lay my life down every day because I choose to be loyal in the small belief that I have. That is faith.


p.s. why is this site filtering out the word "po1soned"?

Well, don't you know it's a bad word? j.k. :p

Mathematics is not a theory. It is a tool.
Base 10 probably isn't the most efficient way to count.
Computers use binary, and machine code, I think, is hexadecimal (base-16). But that may be purely a result of their architecture. I guess you'd have to see what base suited the human architecture.


There could be an undiscovered tool that we don't know about. 100 years ago people laughed at the Wright brothers.

As far as God's track record, you need but to ask anyone who has had an encounter with him. If you want me to do the painful task of asking everyone I know who is a friend of God, I will, but I would hope you know some trustworthy Christian people.


Please realise that evidence of the existence of Mt. Sinai is not evidence of God. It is merely evidence of Mt. Sinai.

No, you are correct. But, if the account of Mount Sinai and all the other miracles of Moses are supported by physical proof to have happened. The argument is strengthened.


Hmmm. Begging the question.
If Jesus is the Son of God then God exists. Woohoo!
And you choose to believe because you want to. It doesn't make it true.


You don't follow the logic:
IF Jesus WAS everything he claimed to be (which was the Son of God), then he is the Son of God because (for sake of this argument we are assuming he is) he is. So, if Jesus is the Son of God, he does not lie because God is everything that Jesus said he is (which is told in scriptures). So, if Jesus (the son of God) supports the truths of scripture, then God exists because the scriptures say he does.

Yes, it may not be true, but I was stating it just to say why I believe in the Scriptures. Because the scriptures have little to stand on, but are strengthened if Jesus was who he said he was.


No - this is not Christianity. This is love. Platonic or otherwise, it is love. And not the sole property of Christians or even the religious.

The love I speak of is not platonic. The love is the love that only a Christian can give. You may say you love the person who killed your father, but in your heart you don't. It is not humanly impossible. God makes what is impossible possible. Christian love is about loving the unlovable, something even "Christians" may not have. That is the love that only God knows about between you and him, something that people say, "It doesn't make sense."

There were missionaries who went to tell a tribe about God and to love them where they are at. The five guys left their families and promising lives behind in the name of love. They were intitially accepted, but the natives couldn't understand why they were being treated with love like this. They feared the missionaries and killed them. The wife of Mr. Saint (I think his name was Steve), went to the tribe and continued the work. They saved the whole tribe, and the one who killed Mr. Saint was a church leader and adopted "Grandfather" of the son of Mr. Saint. To see them together and hug each other despite the history cannot be explained away. If you want to know the story and see the men, check of Steven Curtis Chapman Live DVD.

That is love that is unique to Christians.


And I don't think you, sitting in front of a PC somewhere, are in a position to tell people what they have or haven't experienced in their life while they sit in front of their PC 1000s of miles away.

Correct, what is your point? I do not presume to know. :bugeye:

IF Jesus WAS everything he claimed to be (which was the Son of God), then he is the Son of God
That's the biggest misconception about what Jesus taught. You see, he never claimed this title for himself, it's an analogy to what we all are. When you realize it, we are all sons and daughters of the phenomenon from which we came, (which Jesus, being a Jew, calls-God, for lack of a better term). That's another way to say that between us and the devine, there is a direct connection.

There could be an undiscovered tool that we don't know about. 100 years ago people laughed at the Wright brothers.There may be - but the Wright brothers weren't laughed at because they used Mathematics. The tool is just that - a tool. People laugh at the purpose to which the tool is put - in the case of the Wright brothers - flight.
Mathematics is a tool of pure logic.
It can not be called into question. Only its application can be.
Now we could devise something that helps us more than Maths - but then we've always created better tools. There's no argument there.
But bear in mind, that 1 + 1 = 2 no matter what "language" you put it in. You could call 2 10 in binary - but it still means the same thing.

As far as God's track record, you need but to ask anyone who has had an encounter with him. If you want me to do the painful task of asking everyone I know who is a friend of God, I will, but I would hope you know some trustworthy Christian people.For every person who has supposedly been helped by "god" there has been a person seemingly let down by him.

No, you are correct. But, if the account of Mount Sinai and all the other miracles of Moses are supported by physical proof to have happened. The argument is strengthened.Since when is evidence of the existence of a place to be used to strengthen the case for "miracles". And Mt. Sinai is not a miracle - it is a place. What happened there might be deemed a miracle - but Mt. Sinai is just a place.
I could write a novel based in the UK and include many "miracles" - but just because the places may exist doesn't in any way add credence to the "miracles" I might describe.


You don't follow the logic:
IF Jesus WAS everything he claimed to be (which was the Son of God), then he is the Son of God because (for sake of this argument we are assuming he is) he is. So, if Jesus is the Son of God, he does not lie because God is everything that Jesus said he is (which is told in scriptures). So, if Jesus (the son of God) supports the truths of scripture, then God exists because the scriptures say he does.

Yes, it may not be true, but I was stating it just to say why I believe in the Scriptures. Because the scriptures have little to stand on, but are strengthened if Jesus was who he said he was.Okay, let me simplify it for you: you are saying you are a believer because someone claimed to be the Son of God? And thus if they WERE truly the Son of God, then not only does God exist, but this person is their Son.
This is begging the question.
No offence, but it also makes you gullible.
What of all the other people since then who have claimed to be the Son of God? Why not believe them? After all, if THEY are correct, then you've been following the wrong one. :eek:

The love I speak of is not platonic. The love is the love that only a Christian can give.No offence again, but bollox.
I would quite happily give my life to save my friends, my family. I will always be there when they need me the most. How do you equate this supposed "Christian love" that is being given by an atheist?

You may say you love the person who killed your father, but in your heart you don't. It is not humanly impossible.Right, so Christians are therefore inhuman?

God makes what is impossible possible. Christian love is about loving the unlovable, something even "Christians" may not have. That is the love that only God knows about between you and him, something that people say, "It doesn't make sense."No. You are blinkered.

There were missionaries....
snip
.... check of Steven Curtis Chapman Live DVD.
That is love that is unique to Christians.
Irrelevant. You are giving one example as proof of "Christian love".
And what of Muslims who die to save others?
What of soldiers who give their life to save people in other countries, of different races?
Sacrifice is NOT specific to Christianity - it never has been and never will be.

Correct, what is your point? I do not presume to know. I was picking up on a comment you made: "You have yet to experience the love a true Christian" when you were replying to someone else. This, in my book, is an invalid assumption unless you happen to know the life story of the person you are replying to. That was all.


As for believing in God 80-90% but having faith in him - this is illogical.
If you have faith you believe. End of story.
You can't be undecided about believing in god and still have 100% faith.
You might well be undecided about the various facets of the god in which you do believe, but you still believe 100% in god.

Faith is "TRUST", what part of "do you trust God" are you having a problem with?

the whole idea of a personal god has problems. discussing things like Moses, Sinai, or faith wont really get you anywhere. you have to have some proof, some argument that damages the other side through either logic or evidence.

try this on for size.

we all know that if evil exist, god is all-powerful, and good, then evil must be a product of god giving us free will right?

however, how can god grant prayers without interfering in free will? the bible (and other religious texts) teaches you to pray for things, but if god grants your prayer god will have taken away someone’s free will. if you pray, for example, for someone to have a safe trip home, it would mean that every person they come near on their trip would not have the free will to hurt them.

Then saith he unto his disciples, The harvest truly is plenteous, but the labourers are few;
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
how could god grant that prayer without taking away the free will of the laborers?

you see, even praying for something as simple as patients would take away your own free will. you would no longer have the choice to be impatient

so what do you give up? god being good, god being all-powerful, or the word of Jesus (and therefore Christianity)? they can't all stand together.

here's one more - "if god knows the past, present & future then how can we have free will?"

Hi

Yeh I have been thinking about the replies and yeh they are all right. I am ussuming and then get my assuption, but it is just a deductive proof.

What I am assuming is that God exists, then proof that if he exists then He always existed
It like saying 1+1 =2, and 4-2 = 2, and proving that 4-2 = 1+1
And there is nothing wrong with those proofs in Maths, so I cant see why I cant use them in Philosphy

I wrote a detailed response while I was supposed to be listing to a lecture 2day, and I could go and get it but right now busy with some tutoring stuff
so I could get it if you need more proof
Bye, Thanks for making me think because in the other forums as soon I started going the whole subject changed
Jako

If Everything must have a cause (causes) in order to exist, then, who created God?

If God does not need to be created, then how can he exist?
Everything must have a cause in order to exist in the set physics and logics of this realm. Since God is the one who created the rules and Physics of this universe, He is not subject to them. He exists outside of time, has always existed [And I suppose never since time is His creation, or so I believe]. God created Himself, which is a sign of His power.

Theories debate whether the universe will always expand, or will contract again and go through a bang/shrink/bang/shrink cycle.
But they are all theories - so please don't quote them as fact.

The universe is expanding, it is proven fact. It is a theory that they were once together, but a logical theory based on fact and Newton's Law.


This is not truth but one man's theories and ideas.
What is our personal truth, but a culmination of experiences, theories, and facts. Perhaps this one man's theories holds a missing key to your truth. You won't know until you objectively read his work.

No matter how many people "find God's design" it is still unprovable. As is his non-existence. But you are content in your "prove he doesn't exist" fallacy.
So, we agree to not agree. But, I am here to say not that God is provable, but that the odds are against there not being God.


It is your task to prove the statement that "Life is of design". You are stating the case - so you prove it. The burden of proof is on you, not on those who don't claim it is by design, not even on those who claim a lack of designer, but it lies on the person claiming the existence of something.
This is a debate, not a lecture; so, it is a two-way street. Besides, I have provided, and will continue to provide evidence to sway the odds of there being a creator. Again, God is unprovable, just like everything else. Science is an odds game. The odds increase the more times 1+1=2.


A decision is not proof.
If you feel your "evidence" exists and is sufficient, by all means take it to a scientific journal. Hell, bring it here for scrutiny.
Much of our personal truth is experience, so all I have to offer is my first-hand testimony, the testimony of people I know, and the theories of people smarter than me that are supported by fact.

You are right, it is not proof, but I am proof. And every true Christian on the planet is living proof that God exists. Their actions defy that natural human nature, even when it is not possible to defy of their own strength.

I see perfectly good, virtuous people who are not Christians. I see some in my family who proclaim to be Christians and are not. These good people feed the hungry 6 days a week, only to murder someone on Saturday. So, what does that make them?

The example is extreme, but the point is that good people cannot resist human nature to look to oneself. So, the fact that Christians perform extraordinary feats to resist oneself, raise the dead, heal the sick, and other feats, stands as testament to a supernatural power, and the power is described to a tee in the Bible. You know that 1+1=2, and if you read a book that contains the equation, are you more likely to believe some more of what is in the book? You may not believe the whole book (and you should be skeptical), but it is a start.

it seem you are the one who has not done your homework. I know all about "Sinai" but it is only hear say. if someone said there was a 7-11 down the street I would believe him or her, not because their saying so was evidence, but because I don't think they would have a reason to lie. if I didn’t trust the person, then I could go down the street and find out for my self. I can't do that with any biblical "evidence"

Watch the video, it is compelling. It was a team of an Entrepreneur and an ex-FBI agent. Together they had the means and skill of investigation to uncover the truth. Not to mention the balls, they could have been executed. There was a sign posted at the foot of the mountain threatening of it. They recorded all of the physical evidence, and the description matches 100% the account in the bible, word for word. So, if that part is true and another part is true, and another, and another. What are the chances that the whole is true?


you have a point in your argument against death, but you could work non-stop to help people. work a day job (which helps society) then use your money to buy crystal meth, and then help people all nigh long for the rest of your life.

Correct, that makes those good people drug dealers. I have a "Christian" sister-in-law that is a gossip. So, what is she?

I lie when I am scared. What does that make me?

The point is that everyone is, by nature, out to go through life for themselves. It is a true Christian that has the power to defy nature, and if he does wrong, he will make it right. If he fails, he is not a Christian. So, how can anyone walk the line of Christianity?

No one, but Jesus. But, one so perfect chose to die. So, God, for the sake of his Son, forgives us our sins when we repent.

I know you all have had bad experiences of two-faced "Christians", by census account, Christians are the predominant people on Earth. So, your experiences weigh heavy to tell the truth you know, that Christianity is a lie. But, the odds are that it is the truth, but that you encountered the weakness of man which you have 100% odds to encounter.

So, no one knows the REAL truth of the universe. But as for me, I am going with the odds.

That's the biggest misconception about what Jesus taught. You see, he never claimed this title for himself, it's an analogy to what we all are. When you realize it, we are all sons and daughters of the phenomenon from which we came, (which Jesus, being a Jew, calls-God, for lack of a better term). That's another way to say that between us and the devine, there is a direct connection.

That is a fallacy of apples and oranges.

No, we are not sons and daughters of God. We see God as the Father, but not as our birth Father, but as one who is a Father in how he loves us. Jesus was spoken of, and actually said, he was the Son of God. He claimed with all authority that he was the same as God. The terms you speak of are coined, there is a stark difference between them.

Jesus declares to have the power of God. He declares himself to have the power to forgive sins. He declares himself as "Lord of the Sabbath"
Even demons and devils knew who he was. That is why he was killed, because the Pharisees wanted to continue to be "greater than thou" and be excused from sinning, but Jesus threatened their position.

John Chapter 8
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

John Chapter 10
30 I and my Father are one. 31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. 32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

Matthew Chapter 3
16 And when Jesus was baptized, he went up immediately from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and alighting on him; 17 and lo, a voice from heaven, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Matthew Chapter 8
29 And behold, they cried out, "What have you to do with us, O Son of God? Have you come here to torment us before the time?" 30 Now a herd of many swine was feeding at some distance from them. 31 And the demons begged him, "If you cast us out, send us away into the herd of swine." 32 And he said to them, "Go."

Matthew Chapter 16
"But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter replied, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew Chapter 26
And the high priest said to him, "I adjure you by the living God, tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him, "You have said so. But I tell you, hereafter you will see the Son of man seated at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven." 65 Then the high priest tore his robes, and said, "He has uttered blasphemy.

There may be - but the Wright brothers weren't laughed at because they used Mathematics. The tool is just that - a tool. People laugh at the purpose to which the tool is put - in the case of the Wright brothers - flight.
Mathematics is a tool of pure logic.
It can not be called into question. Only its application can be.
Now we could devise something that helps us more than Maths - but then we've always created better tools. There's no argument there.
But bear in mind, that 1 + 1 = 2 no matter what "language" you put it in. You could call 2 10 in binary - but it still means the same thing.
That is what I'm talking about. We think in binary. How do we know there is not a method in our brain that we can't unlock to enable us to calculate three or four dimensionally?


For every person who has supposedly been helped by "god" there has been a person seemingly let down by him.

Have you ever seen Bruce Almighty? What would happen if God answered all our prayers right away? What would happen if we always got what we asked for? We would be spoiled and bored because life would be a bowl of cherries day-in and day-out. Not a pretty picture.

But anyway, the faith is hard to keep because we are self-centered by instinct, and it is not God who let them down, but they who have decided to give up on waiting for his blessing. Those that keep the faith are those that are blessed, they are those that kick their bad habits in one day. If you asked your dad for $10,000 and he didn't reply because it he didn't have it yet, and you stopped asking and didn't talk to him anymore just because he didn't respond in your timing. Would he want to give you $10,000 anymore?

I wouldn't want a God who worked on MY schedule. That would take away his divination and make him no better than me.


Since when is evidence of the existence of a place to be used to strengthen the case for "miracles". And Mt. Sinai is not a miracle - it is a place. What happened there might be deemed a miracle - but Mt. Sinai is just a place.
I could write a novel based in the UK and include many "miracles" - but just because the places may exist doesn't in any way add credence to the "miracles" I might describe.

Good point. But it helps to have a tangible thumbprint of the event. A picture is worth a thousand words, and God on the mountain is not the only miracle in the story of the Exodus from Egypt. Moses performed many more miracles that have the thumbprint of the event. So, if the event happened, and we have only one explaination, dare we go against ancient text that give an account of the event?

The problem with your novel is that everyone knows the history of the UK and can confirm or deny your miracles as fact or fiction.


Okay, let me simplify it for you: you are saying you are a believer because someone claimed to be the Son of God? And thus if they WERE truly the Son of God, then not only does God exist, but this person is their Son.
This is begging the question.
No offence, but it also makes you gullible.
What of all the other people since then who have claimed to be the Son of God? Why not believe them? After all, if THEY are correct, then you've been following the wrong one. :eek:
HEHE. That would suck.
No, you misunderstand me. The Bible itself I have trouble accepting wholly that it was written by God's inspiration, because it was written by human hands. My faith in God is the culmination of experience, the Bible, testimonies, and the lack of proof of any other theory being the truth.

The good news is for me is that there is enough prophecy, physical evidence, and the like to persuade me to follow Christ over all other gods and Christ wanna-bes. The Bible warns of anyone who says they are the Christ before the second coming on the clouds. And the Bible was written by many authors, not just one Muhhamed, or one Buddah. So the odds of something being the truth increase with the number of testimonies to the same truth.


No offence again, but bollox.
I would quite happily give my life to save my friends, my family. I will always be there when they need me the most. How do you equate this supposed "Christian love" that is being given by an atheist?

Right, so Christians are therefore inhuman?

No. You are blinkered.

The Bible warns me not to throw wisdom to wolves, because they will trample it like pearls because it is useless to them. But here I am, doing such things, but not for your sake, but to challenge myself.

I believe that you would lay your life down for your family. Would you lay your life down for your hated enemy merely because he was the Son of a friend?


If Christianity was about pleasing one's friends, then it is bullox.
It is about loving the unlovable as well as your friend.
Irrelevant. You are giving one example as proof of "Christian love".
And what of Muslims who die to save others?
What of soldiers who give their life to save people in other countries, of different races?
Sacrifice is NOT specific to Christianity - it never has been and never will be.

True, but I use Sacrifice because it is the strongest show of love.
Soldiers who die for their country die for something great. Put the same soldier and ask him to die not for his country, but for his mortal enemy to be saved. Would you get the same response?
Don't be caught up on sacrifice, I use it as an example because Christianity is about sacrifice of yourself 24/7.


I was picking up on a comment you made: "You have yet to experience the love a true Christian" when you were replying to someone else. This, in my book, is an invalid assumption unless you happen to know the life story of the person you are replying to. That was all.

If that person had experienced the love a true Christian, that person would be a Christian. Salvation comes through the show of love and sacrifice on the behalf of God. Then, God will use that show and draw them near. That is the way it works, but I understand you don't know how it works because you never experienced it. It is the Christian formula of salvation, and anyone who knows of it is a Christian.


As for believing in God 80-90% but having faith in him - this is illogical.
If you have faith you believe. End of story.
You can't be undecided about believing in god and still have 100% faith.
You might well be undecided about the various facets of the god in which you do believe, but you still believe 100% in god.

Belief and Faith are two different words. You may not believe something that looks like an orange is going to taste like in orange (but you are not 100% sure), but you have 100% faith that it will taste like an orange when you bite it. You don't know until you bite. (die)

Everything must have a cause in order to exist in the set physics and logics of this realm.
there was no physics before the big bang, so the big bang could, with your reasoning, exist without cause.

God created Himself, which is a sign of His power.
:rolleyes: , how is that possible? how can you exist before you exist?

but that the odds are against there not being God.
how do you come to this conclusion? where do you get your numbers? if the universe is actually an infinite multiverse, or an infinitely bang/church/bang universe, the odds are 100% that we will be here. the only thing odds point away from is a 1 time big bang with all the properties we have.

how could god grant that prayer without taking away the free will of the laborers?

you see, even praying for something as simple as patients would take away your own free will. you would no longer have the choice to be impatient

so what do you give up? god being good, god being all-powerful, or the word of Jesus (and therefore Christianity)? they can't all stand together.
If I knew the answer to the mysteries of faith, the universe, and God, I wouldn't be a man. If anyone knows the answers to God's mysteries, the notion of God is foolishness. As I said, I am making an educated guess and so have faith because I don't like the alternative or the chance of mishap.

I do know that we do have the free will to do as God instructs, or to do my own thing and leave God with the pieces.

You are absolutely right, God cannot break the free will, that is why prayers are not answered sometimes. Not everyone is a friend of God, so opprotunites to do God's work are passed up by the faithless and timid.

The act of praying for something like patience is giving up your free will to be changed to be more patient, or why you would ask to be changed if you were not willing to change?

It is my own free will to choose to endure the trials that will teach me patience. In the mean time, I can ask for strength to endure the trials, then again, I am allowing God to change me to be strong. Or, I can do nothing and try to endure the trials to teach patience, or I can just not be patient and rip my hairs out. It's up to the individual.

:rolleyes: , how is that possible? how can you exist before you exist?

"happy are those who existed before they were born" (from gospel of thomas maybe)

here's one more - "if god knows the past, present & future then how can we have free will?"

He knows our hearts, so he knows how things will end up if nothing else changes.

He knows what we will choose, but it is still our choice. He has been known to change his mind in scriptures (knowing that we will ask for him to), but he wants us to have a part in the plan. Look at Ninevah. He told them he will destroy them on this day and this hour if they didn't change their ways. Now, he knew what they would choose, but still gives them the chance to choose.

He only knows the future as the result of the present, and he knows all hearts.

He knows our hearts, so he knows how things will end up if nothing else changes.

He knows what we will choose, but it is still our choice. He has been known to change his mind in scriptures (knowing that we will ask for him to), but he wants us to have a part in the plan. Look at Ninevah. He told them he will destroy them on this day and this hour if they didn't change their ways. Now, he knew what they would choose, but still gives them the chance to choose.

He only knows the future as the result of the present, and he knows all hearts.

if he knows what's going to happen to us and everything's decided in advance then in what sense is your will free?

how do you come to this conclusion? where do you get your numbers? if the universe is actually an infinite multiverse, or an infinitely bang/church/bang universe, the odds are 100% that we will be here. the only thing odds point away from is a 1 time big bang with all the properties we have.

There is much evidence supporting creation, which tips the odds. A large contributor to the odds is found in biochemistry. Irreducibly complex systems have a "number of different components that all work together to accomplish the task of the system, and if you were to remove one of the components, the system would no longer function. An irreducibly complex system is highly unlikely to be built piece-by-pice through Darwinian processes, because the system has to be fully present in order to it to function." (Behe, 2004).

Michael J. Behe, PHD is a reknowned biochemist who has researched cells at the molecular level. I got the quote from the book, "The Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel, but Dr. Behe has a book of his own. He does not prove there is a creator, but his research tips the odds in favor.

Here is the table of contents of "The Case for a Creator", in case some may be interested in Strobel's collection of research:
I. White-Coated Scientist vs Black-Robed Preachers
II. Images of Evolution
III. Doubs about Darwinism
IV. Where science meets faith.
V. The Evidence of Cosmology: Beginning with a Bang
VI. The Evidence of Physics: The Cosmos on a Razor's Edge
VII. The Evidence of Astronomy: The Privileged Planet
VIII. The Evidence of Biochemistry: The Complexity of Molecular Machines
IX. The Evidence of Biological Information: The Challenge of DNA and the Origin of Life
X. The Evidence of Consciousness: The Enigma of the Mind
Some scientists include: Jonathan Wells, Stephen C. Meyer, William Lane Craig, Robin Collins, Guillermo Gonzalez, Michael Behe, and J.P. Moreland.

Good book! It is a journal, so it is a pretty easy read.

if he knows what's going to happen to us and everything's decided in advance then in what sense is your will free?

Nothing is decided in advance, do not misunderstand. God decided in advance that he will make man to keep THEM company. Did he know Adam would betray him? Who knows. He knew if Adam disobeyed, what would happen, and if he obeyed what will happen, but it was Adam's choice which future became the present.

Yes, God has a plan of Salvation, he knows when he is going to come back, but it is not until everyone has had their last chance. We have the freedom to follow his plan or not. He knows how his plan will be accomplished, and it will be with or without you or me. Our choice.

So when we cross the plan of God, we have a choice. Do I marry this woman that you have placed in my destiny? Is this in your plan? It is my choice, so I will marry, or I will not marry. You know what will happen if I marry, and also what will happen if I don't. Two futures, and both are known by God. But, all futures lead to the end of the plan of salvation where Jesus comes. It's all a matter of how you and I want to get there. On God's side, or not. It makes no difference, but God would prefer that you be there.

In short, he knows all futures, and knows where are hearts are now in the present and where that will end up, but we are allowed to change our hearts and change the future.

Many times over God had to say, "Alright, you want it that way, okay, this is how it is going to play out." Over and over and over, humans have chosen their own way (which was a good way in human logic, but not the best). God wanted to take the Jews of Egypt directly to the promised land. He said, "I will take you there right now, trust me." The Jews said, "No, we can't go there, there are Giants that will surely kill us. No, you aren't real, God. Instead, we will worship Baal who we can see a statue of. No, that miracle didn't happen, it was just coincidence. No No NO, ME ME ME. So, God said, "Fine, have it your way. Wander in the desert until you are dead if you are too scared to trust me, then I will take your children to the promised land." So, God fulfilled his promise and delivered the Jews to the promised land, but it was their choice how they got there.

So, God has a plan for us, it is up to us how we get there...or even if we get there. We can always say, "Forget it!" Of course, he will say, "Fine have it your way, go to Hell where you can do what you want, then I will throw you all into the lake of fire when your master is taken care of."

Imagine a world where I could just walk up and rape your daughter, and you could kill me for it. Except, there would be no second death. That is hell, where there is "weeping, and gnashing of teeth." We always get what we want folks, but what we want may be the end of us. Our addictions and our lusts are often the instruments of our destruction, because we can do what we want to do. Enough doom and gloom, my point is to answer your question about free will.

Did he know Adam would betray him?

Adam didn't betray God, neither did Eve, it was the serpent. Haven't you read the Bible, dude? But it was no one's fault, not even the serpents', and God made the serpent appear because God didn't have any other choice. He can't go against his own will, otherwise, he would be human.

Nothing is decided in advance, do not misunderstand. God decided in advance that he will make man to keep THEM company. Did he know Adam would betray him? Who knows. He knew if Adam disobeyed, what would happen, and if he obeyed what will happen, but it was Adam's choice which future became the present.

first you say that nothing is decided in advanced and then you say that god's knew what would happen... in your statement itself, if god knows what's gonna happen then how can you term your will free???
if god knew what would happen when adam obeyed or disobeyed then why wouldn't he know adam's choice???
looks like god decides certain parts of our lives and we have to fill in the gap! :p
and who believes in that adam & even fairytale anyway??

Yes, God has a plan of Salvation, he knows when he is going to come back, but it is not until everyone has had their last chance. We have the freedom to follow his plan or not. He knows how his plan will be accomplished, and it will be with or without you or me. Our choice.

this implies that we have free will.. so god cannot possibly know what our choice is gonna be.. if he did, then everything is actually decided!

In short, he knows all futures, and knows where are hearts are now in the present and where that will end up, but we are allowed to change our hearts and change the future.

if he knows all futures then in what sense is your will free since everything's gonna happen according to his vision!

and who believes in that adam & even fairytale anyway??

I believe it, but you should understand that the story is allegorical.

There is no god, and the bible is a book of lies.

I believe it.

then i guess you disapprove of evolution!

God is omnipotent and omnipresent. He is eternal, with no beginning and no end, in a dimension in which time is not a constraint. Personally, I can't conceive of such an existence, but that doesn't surprise me, I'm only human. So God knows what we will choose before we do, but that in no way means that He makes the choice for us. We are still free to choose what we want. And then He is able to use this knowledge as a given in fulfilling his plan.

There is no god, and the bible is a book of lies.

There is a god, and the bible is a book of truths.

then i guess you disapprove of evolution!

I think there is truth in the theory of evolution but everything is not true about it.

that is why prayers are not answered sometimes
sometimes? can you name a prayer that could be answers without someone’s free will being infringed upon?

The act of praying for something like patience is giving up your free will to be changed to be more patient, or why you would ask to be changed if you were not willing to change?
if you pray "please let me be more patient," then even if you wanted to be less patient after that, you could not. say, if I pray to be more patient, then there is a line to get free money, I would not want to be patient and let people go in front of me, but I would have no choice because god made me more patient.

moreover, you seem to be ignoring the quote of the bible in which people pray for other people to come, thus directly and undisputedly taking away free will. so what is it? is got not good, less than all-powerful, or is the bible wrong? (if the bible is wrong, then the whole religion is flawed).

I am getting sick a tired of people only taking half the argument. for example:
A large contributor to the odds is found in biochemistry.
I explained before how the weak anthropic principal works. if the universe is either infinity in a bang/crunch cycle, or there are an infinite number of universes (to name two scenarios) the odd of there being life is 100%. the weak anthropic principal says that since we are here, the only conclusion we can make is that we live in a universe that can support life. AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, the odds are only against there being only 1 big bang with properties that can make life.

further more, why can't you admit when you are wrong (jayleew) its ok. I admitted that my reasoning to get someone to commit suicide was bested. and it has been proven that god does not know what future will happen, god (if god exists) can only know what possible futures there are. god cannot know, for sure, what we will choose if we have free will.

I think there is truth in the theory of evolution but everything is not true about it.

if evolution is true then the fairytale of adam & eve is false...
and vice versa!

Adam didn't betray God, neither did Eve, it was the serpent. Haven't you read the Bible, dude? But it was no one's fault, not even the serpents', and God made the serpent appear because God didn't have any other choice. He can't go against his own will, otherwise, he would be human.

You are young in your understanding. Adam chose to take the apple, so he is as at much fault as the serpent and Eve. In so doing, he said, "I know God told me not to eat, but forget it, I'm going to eat." That act is defiance. It is rebellious. Adam felt guilt and tried to pawn it off, but he was kicked out of the garden along with the snake and Eve.

What are you talking about? God did not make the serpent appear. Please clarify. No, the serpent did the tempting. Each party involved was punished. The sepent was made to crawl for the rest of his life. Child bearing pain was established. And man forever would have to toil the ground to eat. All three rebelled.

There is a god, and the bible is a book of truths.



I think there is truth in the theory of evolution but everything is not true about it.
Wow, you are stuck waaaaaaay back in the Dark Ages, aren't' ya?
there is no god. go home.

Nothing is known for sure about the nature of God's omnipotence, but the Bible gives us clues to God's heart and to how he works. I am putting the clues together, but I could be wrong. I can just tell you what the Bible says about God.

in your statement itself, if god knows what's gonna happen then how can you term your will free???
if god knew what would happen when adam obeyed or disobeyed then why wouldn't he know adam's choice???
looks like god decides certain parts of our lives and we have to fill in the gap! :p

What is to understand? Tomorrow, I might go to work or I might not. So, I know the future. Now, I know myself and I enjoy going to work. So, if nothing changes my motivation, I will go to work. So, am I infringing on my free will to go to work? It is the same, but God knows all hearts and knows all possibilities.

From what we have in the bible, we can surmise (but not know for sure) that God didn't know. I don't think he knew what was going to happen because he came down to be with Adam in the evening, as he always did every day. Well, that day Adam was nowhere to be found and so God called for him. Now, if God knew what Adam had done then he would have known where Adam was and not have asked.

God decides the beginning and the end, we make up the rest.


this implies that we have free will.. so god cannot possibly know what our choice is gonna be.. if he did, then everything is actually decided!

Nope, he doesn't know. But, he can say, "I know yank is a good person and will help that grandma out because I can trust him because he has not let me down before, so if that happens the grandma is going to give him $100 for helping out, but if he doesn't he is going to be hit by a car."

I'd hope he can trust me, but some he cannot trust, so he is not so optomistic I bet.

if he knows all futures then in what sense is your will free since everything's gonna happen according to his vision!
If everything was gonna happen according to his vision he would have wiped out the Isrealites long ago. God said he regretted making man and will make a new nation of Moses. Moses asked him to stay his wrath. I can see God waiting and hoping that Moses would ask him to stay his wrath, but God had a plan if Moses said nothing.

As far as our nation, God waits for everyone to make the final choice, the choice when they cannot be persuaded any longer either way.

sometimes? can you name a prayer that could be answers without someone’s free will being infringed upon?

if you pray "please let me be more patient," then even if you wanted to be less patient after that, you could not. say, if I pray to be more patient, then there is a line to get free money, I would not want to be patient and let people go in front of me, but I would have no choice because god made me more patient.

You are right, but prayer is about opening the door. When you pray you are giving God permission to intervene. If you are not willing to give him permission to work, then your prayers are worthless and will go unanswered because God knows your heart that you are not willing to give up your will.

If you don't want to be more patient, then don't ask.


moreover, you seem to be ignoring the quote of the bible in which people pray for other people to come, thus directly and undisputedly taking away free will. so what is it? is got not good, less than all-powerful, or is the bible wrong? (if the bible is wrong, then the whole religion is flawed).

I am not sure what you are referring to, but I think you mean praying for other people to come to church?

If that is your question, God can knock on the other person's door, but if they don't answer, they won't come. God can't make anyone come to church. It's just like with my cousin who is not a believer. I can tell him Jesus this Jesus that, but if he doesn't want Jesus, I am wasting my time.

Does that answer your question??


I am getting sick a tired of people only taking half the argument. for example:

I explained before how the weak anthropic principal works. if the universe is either infinity in a bang/crunch cycle, or there are an infinite number of universes (to name two scenarios) the odd of there being life is 100%. the weak anthropic principal says that since we are here, the only conclusion we can make is that we live in a universe that can support life. AND LIKE I SAID BEFORE, the odds are only against there being only 1 big bang with properties that can make life.

Calm down. There is no reason to be fed up because of miscommunication. I know its frustrating, but this is the vehicle we have chosen.

I don't understand, you are saying if there are two scenarios that odds of there of being life is 100%? That is not logical.

There are two pieces of cheese, one is blue cheese, the other is cheddar, therefore the odds of there being a mouse is 100%. This is not logical.

I have conceded that the big bang theory is a theory, just like the bang/crunch cycle. With that said, if objects in motion tend to stay in motion and objects are moving apart, then it is likely that they once were together.

Are you talking about multiple universes?
Are you talking about life on other galaxies? Please clarify. I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here.


further more, why can't you admit when you are wrong (jayleew) its ok. I admitted that my reasoning to get someone to commit suicide was bested. and it has been proven that god does not know what future will happen, god (if god exists) can only know what possible futures there are. god cannot know, for sure, what we will choose if we have free will.

If I am wrong, say what I'm wrong about and prove that I am wrong. If you can't, I MAY not be wrong.

There is a god, and the bible is a book of truths.



I think there is truth in the theory of evolution but everything is not true about it.

Yorda, you are a little confused, but don't worry because 10 years ago I thought Evolution was God's vehicle because I was lied to in public school. I was taught that Evolution was 100% true. They didn't say that, but presented it as fact.

There is hope, seek the truth of Evolution. Read "The Case For Creator" by Lee Strobel. Dr. Michael J Behe disproves evolution using Darwinian premises and the science of biochemistry. Basicallly he has found that there are tiny mechanisms that are at the molecular level that cannot function if slightly modified in any way. These mechanisms are the building blocks of life (part of DNA). There are more findings, and I don't want to trash his work (I may have already butchered it), so do the research. Darwin said if there are these mechanisms, then his theory is worthless (I butchered his quote, but that was the gist). Darwin couldn't know for sure, but he knew he had to check. The microscopes back then only went to the cellular level where the cell was a Jello with a nucleus dot.

God is omnipotent and omnipresent. He is eternal, with no beginning and no end, in a dimension in which time is not a constraint. Personally, I can't conceive of such an existence, but that doesn't surprise me, I'm only human. So God knows what we will choose before we do, but that in no way means that He makes the choice for us. We are still free to choose what we want. And then He is able to use this knowledge as a given in fulfilling his plan.

Then throw in that he is three in one, and that they have been around since the dawn of creation. Let US make man in OUR own image. Wow! If we understood this fully, we wouldn't need God, we would be God. Why would anyone want a God who they can understand all his doings and mysteries?

Like I said before, if there is no God, life is not worth living.

Yorda, you are a little confused, but don't worry because 10 years ago I thought Evolution was God's vehicle because I was lied to in public school. I was taught that Evolution was 100% true. They didn't say that, but presented it as fact.

There is hope, seek the truth of Evolution. Read "The Case For Creator" by Lee Strobel. Dr. Michael J Behe disproves evolution using Darwinian premises and the science of biochemistry. Basicallly he has found that there are tiny mechanisms that are at the molecular level that cannot function if slightly modified in any way. These mechanisms are the building blocks of life (part of DNA). There are more findings, and I don't want to trash his work (I may have already butchered it), so do the research. Darwin said if there are these mechanisms, then his theory is worthless (I butchered his quote, but that was the gist). Darwin couldn't know for sure, but he knew he had to check. The microscopes back then only went to the cellular level where the cell was a Jello with a nucleus dot.

i know how evolution works... the basic and the most important thing is "magnetism". books don't tell you that, though. i don't think there was one living cell and we all come from it... i think there were millions... and millions of creatures were born at the same time... just like with plants and trees... there wasn't one single ancestor which made all trees... trees were born everywhere at the same time... same with living creatures.

Then throw in that he is three in one, and that they have been around since the dawn of creation. Let US make man in OUR own image. Wow! If we understood this fully, we wouldn't need God, we would be God. Why would anyone want a God who they can understand all his doings and mysteries?

Like I said before, if there is no God, life is not worth living.


Exactly...which is why people need to give up on trying to deduct Him with their intellect and egos and such, and just meet Him for crying out loud. I don't suppose that many people would enjoy the dose of humility. But humility is the key to enlightenment.

And I indeed would not want my life if it did not belong to Him; I do not wish to live without Him. I have made this abundantly clear to Him. He is the only One who saves my life, and so it belongs to Him. What He has done with it has absolutely blown my mind in the best way possible. I could have never imagined what He has done for me, through me, to me...I could have never imagined being so grateful and happy or wanting to live this much...forever.

When you pray you are giving God permission to intervene.
ok,
1. what if you ask for something and change your mind later? if you can change your mind later, then it was never up to god, it was just something you decided to do for a while.
2. This means that prayer cannot affect other people, which is a direct contradiction of Christianity (and other religions). (see below quote)
"And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."- MATTHEW 21:22
so what is