God may exist
He may not

Either way what is the point of worship

It is a waste of time and a waste of money

Some people say that if we worship god we will go to heaven after death
who cares, without religion earth would be more like heaven

less wars
less racism

A Better Place

so
Who Gives a **** about god

Not me

Heaven is a religious concept therefor it is probably wrong. Even if there's a creator, no living thing in this universe will have an afterlife... unless they're those bacteria that can reanimate :D

I was sort of hoping religion would slowly die in the 21st century like it has in europe, but the middle east and america are letting the world down on that front. It seems like the great age of information is not only responsible for the death of religion in some parts... it is also responsible for it flourishing in others.

Good for you. Was your post a waste of time as well?

Yyyyyyyyyyyyawn* :bugeye:

So many people are gonna say this same thing, so many more times!

"God may exist
He may not"

God may exist
He may not

Either way what is the point of worship

It is a waste of time and a waste of money

Some people say that if we worship god we will go to heaven after death
who cares, without religion earth would be more like heaven

less wars
less racism

A Better Place

so
Who Gives a **** about god

Not me

It is a common fallacy of underdeveloped thinking to come to the conclusion that the world will be a better place without religion. It cannot be proven at this time either way. But, the conclusion you have reached is not even grounded in logic.

What will we have without religion? Remove it from the hearts and minds of everyone in the world. What is to keep these people from doing immoral things where the law cannot go? How can the nation hope to keep from invading the right to privacy, and yet keep order without an iron fist? The nation would either one, not be a free nation. Or two, it would be a nation of tyranny. Both of which impedes on freedom.

With religion there is a hope to keep order and still give personal freedom. With freedom comes resposibility. This is something this generation lacks and it is apparent by every story of every friend and aquaintance of every family member who surrounds me at work, at home, and on the news. A few of these people claim Christianity. But that does not make them Christians, does it. Words are nearly meaningless compared to actions.

If we all followed one religion devoutly, would this world not be the most beautiful? Religion is an underlying cause of strife, war, and underlying atrocities. With a single religion, there would not be this dissention. Without any religion, there would not be freedom because there would be no sense of personal responsibility. The difference between a moral person and a murderer is only the circumstance and perception. Religion is a deterrent and would be effective if everyone followed only one.

This is a scary idea, because that is exactly what the Anti-Christ will do. He will set up a one world church and one world government. Scary stuff because it is logical that such circumstances will produce a peaceful world.

It is a common fallacy of underdeveloped thinking to come to the conclusion that the world will be a better place without religion. It cannot be proven at this time either way. But, the conclusion you have reached is not even grounded in logic.

The fact that most wars today are over religious difference tells me different. America vs the middle east... this war would not have happened if it were not for religious differences, both parties thought they had god on their side. Northern Ireland with sectarian violence with catholics vs prodestants and a few more I bet.

It's a completely ludicrous idea that everyone will decend into anarchy in this day & age if they don't follow a religion. In Glasgow, Scotland where I live, I am not friends with, or know a single person who is religious, yet it's a peaceful place. The decline of religion in western Europe has been matched with increases in intelligence, cooperativeness, and peacefullness.

If we all followed one religion devoutly, would this world not be the most beautiful?

You can shove this idea straight up your arse. I would see a world full of dumb asses who still think we are decendants of Adam and Eve. Even if I allow myself to believe your theory that things would be peaceful, which I still doubt.

Going by your same example, what if instead of following a religion devoutly everyone was agnostic or atheist? Do you really think 'losing the fear of God' we'd all be killing each other? I very much doubt that for reasons I've already stated. Your own country of America (I'm guessing thats where you are from judging from your idiocy) is hardly a shining example of a stable peaceful society.

The fact that most wars today are over religious difference tells me different. America vs the middle east... this war would not have happened if it were not for religious differences, both parties thought they had god on their side. Northern Ireland with sectarian violence with catholics vs prodestants and a few more I bet.

It's a completely ludicrous idea that everyone will decend into anarchy in this day & age if they don't follow a religion. In Glasgow, Scotland where I live, I am not friends with, or know a single person who is religious, yet it's a peaceful place. The decline of religion in western Europe has been matched with increases in intelligence, cooperativeness, and peacefullness.


I agree, I addressed this later in my argument.


You can shove this idea straight up your arse. I would see a world full of dumb asses who still think we are decendants of Adam and Eve. Even if I allow myself to believe your theory that things would be peaceful, which I still doubt.
I love how people like you get so defensive, and we can have such rational discussions without mudslinging and shoving things here and there. Very civilized. :rolleyes:


Going by your same example, what if instead of following a religion devoutly everyone was agnostic or atheist? Do you really think 'losing the fear of God' we'd all be killing each other? I very much doubt that for reasons I've already stated. Your own country of America (I'm guessing thats where you are from judging from your idiocy) is hardly a shining example of a stable peaceful society.
No, I don't think we'd be killing each other. The government would not allow it. Without religion, the government wouldn't be able to trust the individual with responsibility and certain freedoms.

That is my point, America is no longer a Christian nation, we are becoming a more "free" society everyday. America is the best example what happens to a nation without religion.

It seems I agree with you on at least two counts, but you are not getting my point.

god exists, and he is a douche-bag.

That is my point, America is no longer a Christian nation, we are becoming a more "free" society everyday. America is the best example what happens to a nation without religion.


What a load of old festering bullshit. America has an 80% religiosity percent, (and that's just christians), and Bush doesn't even recognise that atheists have rights. How in any way is America a 'nation without religion'? Why not try Japan or something with an 11% religiosity rate and a country far far beyond what America could even dream of being? America is a christian nation.

I was gonna say 75% (51% Protestant and 24% Catholic), but either way, it's amazing how that large a portion of America can feel "persecuted" by the rest of us. They are morons.

America is no longer a Christian nation.

You have got to be joking

George Bush claims to be christian and got a lot of support before the recent election because of it

There are churches in america and so it is a largeley christian country

I was gonna say 75% (51% Protestant and 24% Catholic) .

Aren't there other religions in america?

What a load of old festering bullshit. America has an 80% religiosity percent, (and that's just christians), and Bush doesn't even recognise that atheists have rights. How in any way is America a 'nation without religion'? Why not try Japan or something with an 11% religiosity rate and a country far far beyond what America could even dream of being? America is a christian nation.

And how many of those 80% are not actually religious? Being religious has nothing to do with going to church, otherwise religion would be nothing more than a cult. Today, those terms go hand in hand because that is what religion has become.

Today, I can say "I'm a Christian" and you would believe me. I would go to church and talk about how "Jesus Saves". I could donate and do everything justly in my life and that doesn't mean anything without following the reason for the religion.

What I'm saying is that America's laws have degraded from Christian morals as the people have become more liberal. And these liberal ideas bring more "freedom," and that in itself is not a bad thing.

America is not the nation it was established to be.

You give me a number of 80% of self-proclaimed Christians, but in the actions of American citizens and the laws that are allowed that conflict with Christian ideals, we can only conclude that this nation is becoming less and less Christian. If 80% of America are Christians, then why are non-Christian ideals being circulated and laws allowed to pass that conflict with basic Christian themes? No, we cannot conclude that America is a Christian nation if its people do not act and vote like Christians, upholding Christian values.

Besides, I've tried to make the argument that America is a Christian nation a few months back, but non-theists have not accepted the argument...and here you are supporting the idea. I agree with the other non-theists on this forum, this nation is not a Christian nation anymore.

You have got to be joking

George Bush claims to be christian and got a lot of support before the recent election because of it

There are churches in america and so it is a largeley christian country

The Christian religion is rampant in America, yes. That does not mean there are a lot of Christians.

What a load of old festering bullshit. America has an 80% religiosity percent, (and that's just christians), and Bush doesn't even recognise that atheists have rights. How in any way is America a 'nation without religion'? Why not try Japan or something with an 11% religiosity rate and a country far far beyond what America could even dream of being? America is a christian nation.

Religion does not play a big role in the everyday life of most Japanese people today. The average person typically follows the religious rituals at ceremonies like birth, weddings and funerals, may visit a shrine or temple on New Year and participates at local festivals (matsuri), most of which have a religious background.
- http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e629.html

Sounds like the average Christian life (especially Catholics) in America. Baptism, funeral, and maybe Christmas or Easter attendance.

And how many of those 80% are not actually religious?

They're christian. Whether they go to church every single day of the week and don't let their children watch Pokemon because it's satanic, is another matter altogether - but doesn't change anything.

Being religious has nothing to do with going to church, otherwise religion would be nothing more than a cult.

That is your personal opinion - but is meaningless to those that do go to church. The very action of going to a church shows that one is religious. They might not be devout, but they're certainly not atheists or unbelievers - they are infact christians.

Today, I can say "I'm a Christian" and you would believe me.

Certainly a 'breed of christian'. You're all different, you all have differing views, differing interpretations of the bible, different 'god' experiences etc, different methods with which to be religious - that doesn't make any of you any less christian.

What I'm saying is that America's laws have degraded from Christian morals as the people have become more liberal. And these liberal ideas bring more "freedom," and that in itself is not a bad thing.

That's because the morals of christians have had to change as mankind has developed. Christian women realised that they do have a right to speak, teach and have authority over a man even though the bible says otherwise, ("Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. I permit no woman to teach or have authority over men; she is to keep silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve; and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." - Timothy 2:11). Christians have realised that they can be gay, can have female priests, can work on a weekend and so on.

It is not the atheist telling you what you can or cannot do, it's you - it's the christian turning against his own book and set of beliefs because he realises they stink like t-rex turd. For a couple of thousand years christian men have been telling the women they ain't worth shit. The women finally got the courage to state that you, and god, are completely wrong. It is your own doing, nobody elses.

You give me a number of 80% of self-proclaimed Christians, but in the actions of American citizens and the laws that are allowed that conflict with Christian ideals, we can only conclude that this nation is becoming less and less Christian.

Certainly, but only because that's how you christians want it. The christian women did not want to be servants to men, christian gay people wanted the right to go to church instead of being stoned to death and so on. The unbeliever has not made you change, you've done that all by yourself. As time goes on more of god's word will become meaningless - and still, nobody will be any less christian. How many christians in the world are rich, even though it's easier for a camel to go through a needle than a rich man to go to heaven? How many christians have given away all their worldly possessions as jesus commanded etc?

It doesn't make you less christian - christianity is just evolving as everything does.

If 80% of America are Christians, then why are non-Christian ideals being circulated and laws allowed to pass that conflict with basic Christian themes?

They call it human rights, welcome to 2005. I think jesus himself was big on human rights, shame you never noticed.

No, we cannot conclude that America is a Christian nation if its people do not act and vote like Christians, upholding Christian values.

Yes you can, and yes it is. They might not be christians that are identical to you, but that does not make them any less christian.

Besides, I've tried to make the argument that America is a Christian nation a few months back, but non-theists have not accepted the argument...and here you are supporting the idea.

Oh the joys of being unique. The fact is that if someone says: "I am a christian", he is a christian - maybe not to your standards, but that doesn't change anything. He's just another breed of christian, an individual christian who believes in jesus.

I agree with the other non-theists on this forum, this nation is not a Christian nation anymore.

But it is. And until the day you can show statistics of American religiosity at under 50% then it will remain as a largely christian nation. On it's current 75-80% it is almost completely christian. You're wrong no matter who you agree with.

P.S Let's do a quick test to see if you even qualify as a christian, or religious. Ready? Here we go..

James 1:26-27
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Do you keep a tight rein on your tongue? Do you look after widows and orphans? If not then you can't be considered christian. You are engaged in a faulty and impure religion. Well?

God may exist
He might not

Lol... i agree completely

James 1:26-27
If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Do you keep a tight rein on your tongue? Do you look after widows and orphans? If not then you can't be considered christian. You are engaged in a faulty and impure religion. Well?

Yes, it is my opinion that many Christians are falsely taking the name of Christ and my church is littered with them. Revelations says that only 5 out of ten people who say they are Christians will be raptured. 5 out of ten Christians will be left behind.

Yes, there is dissention among Christians. That is my point. The statistic of 80% Christian is not accurate because of the definition of a Christian, which is in part found in James, as you have pointed out. Paul said the same thing too, and so did Jesus. I cannot sit here and say whether I am a Christian or not, just like the rest of the 80%. My point is that you ask me if I measure up to James 1:26-27. I, of course, would say yes after looking at my life. But, that is meaningless and egotistical. I am what I do in life. My actions speak for me of who I am, not my words. That is why 80% is a far-fetched statistic. The survey is flawed. There aren't many survey's that are truly iron-clad for that matter.

Here's another survey for you: 54% of American adults claim they make their moral choices on the basis of specific principles or standards they believe in. 16% claim they make their moral choices based on the Bible. 60% of evangelicals rely on the Bible as their main source of moral counsel vs 20% of non-evangelical born again adults, while only 6% of notional Christians and 2% of people aligned with non-Christian faiths do so. Protestants are 3 times as likely as Catholics to base morals on the Bible (23% vs. 7%)

We can make a lot of conclusions on this data. But, it clearly shows that Christians are split about making moral decisions based on the Bible's teachings. So, would it be fair to say that 40% of Americans are truly Christians (by their actions and words) and the others use it as a crutch, or have some other alterior motives like making money, or because it is the "in" thing to do?

Yes, it is my opinion that many Christians are falsely taking the name of Christ and my church is littered with them. Revelations says that only 5 out of ten people who say they are Christians will be raptured. 5 out of ten Christians will be left behind.

The amount of humans that god loves dearly but would see burn for eternity has no relevance to a countrywide religiosity statistic.

A christian is defined as: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

If someone states they believe in jesus, and believe he is the saviour of mankind - or indeed follow the religion that is based upon his teachings, then they are infact a christian. They might operate slightly different to you, for instance:

There are some christians that do not celebrate certain holidays. A biblical scholar will agree that jesus could not have been born in December, and indeed can trace the origins of christmas to a pagan festival known as sol invictus. The same goes for easter which comes from the pagan ostara. The same goes for pentecost which comes from the pagan Lugnasao. These christians would claim you as not a christian for partaking in pagan rituals/festivals, some would claim you not a christian for having premarital sex, being gay, letting a woman teach you and so on. The fact remains though that you are all christians because you all share a belief in jesus as christ, and, (although the interpretation differs), live according to his teaching.

One of the problems now is simply that jesus is no longer here. When something new like pokemon comes out you can only guess at whether jesus would consider it an evil thing or not.. As I stated before - religion and belief evolve - as they must, to save the religion from turning stagnant.

This does not make anyone else who believes in jesus as saviour any less christian than you are. When it comes down to the crunch, you might be one of those 5 left behind - while having spent your life assuming it would be the others that "litter" your church. You have no justification to instantly assign damnation to other 'christians' because your methods differ. At the end of the day the fact remains that you're all still christians no matter how differently you do things.

That is my point. The statistic of 80% Christian is not accurate because of the definition of a Christian, which is in part found in James, as you have pointed out. Paul said the same thing too, and so did Jesus. I cannot sit here and say whether I am a Christian or not, just like the rest of the 80%.

Belief in jesus as saviour is what qualifies someone as a christian. Let's look at it the other way..

I drink, smoke, swear and fart.. I like rampant sex with the wife and think Homer Simpson kicks ass. I am an atheist. I know other people that don't like sex, beer or cigarettes, don't swear and can't stand cartoons but they are still atheists.

The main problem is that the bible is so contradictory that nobody knows where they stand. jesus says that the top law that you can hang all the other laws on is: "love thy neighbour". Some christians do love their neighbours but have never looked after an orphan - and thus while still following jesus laws, have actually failed in following god's laws.

jesus says "love thy neighbour", god says: "look after orphans". You've probably never even met an orphan, and you probably don't even remotely like your neighbour - but I'm sure you can find something in the bible that qualifies you as a christian. You still are a christian - you just do things differently to other christians.

My point is that you ask me if I measure up to James 1:26-27. I, of course, would say yes after looking at my life.

How many orphans and widows have you looked after? In either case of course you're now failing to keep a tight rein on your tongue. You're all talk over the internet - safe from prying eyes.. You can boastfully claim you do measure up, but it is a sign that you're wagging your tongue - and thus you have already failed. Having said that, are you no longer a christian?

But, that is meaningless and egotistical. I am what I do in life. My actions speak for me of who I am, not my words. That is why 80% is a far-fetched statistic. The survey is flawed. There aren't many survey's that are truly iron-clad for that matter.


It's not flawed at all. You just have a personal ideal of what a christian is, while happily negating anyone else that calls themself a christian but does not measure up to your personal expectations. I can assure you there are many christians who would state that you don't measure up to their expectations. Does that now make you a non-christian? Of course not, such a statement would be silly - and yet it's exactly what you're saying.

We can make a lot of conclusions on this data. But, it clearly shows that Christians are split about making moral decisions based on the Bible's teachings. So, would it be fair to say that 40% of Americans are truly Christians (by their actions and words) and the others use it as a crutch, or have some other alterior motives like making money, or because it is the "in" thing to do?

It is evolution at work. What, you honestly want it to be biblical law and nothing else? You'd still be out there stoning your children to death and committing other such atrocities like they do in the muslim world. It's somewhat a fundamentalist vs slightly sane battle. Some are hardcore loons that padlock their fannies and never get bonked and some are more relatively at ease who do have sex but ain't into anything kinky. It's a gradient, and no matter what end of the scale you're on, you're still christian if you profess belief in jesus as saviour.

The amount of humans that god loves dearly but would see burn for eternity has no relevance to a countrywide religiosity statistic.

A christian is defined as: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

If someone states they believe in jesus, and believe he is the saviour of mankind - or indeed follow the religion that is based upon his teachings, then they are infact a christian. They might operate slightly different to you, for instance:

There are some christians that do not celebrate certain holidays. A biblical scholar will agree that jesus could not have been born in December, and indeed can trace the origins of christmas to a pagan festival known as sol invictus. The same goes for easter which comes from the pagan ostara. The same goes for pentecost which comes from the pagan Lugnasao. These christians would claim you as not a christian for partaking in pagan rituals/festivals, some would claim you not a christian for having premarital sex, being gay, letting a woman teach you and so on. The fact remains though that you are all christians because you all share a belief in jesus as christ, and, (although the interpretation differs), live according to his teaching.

One of the problems now is simply that jesus is no longer here. When something new like pokemon comes out you can only guess at whether jesus would consider it an evil thing or not.. As I stated before - religion and belief evolve - as they must, to save the religion from turning stagnant.

This does not make anyone else who believes in jesus as saviour any less christian than you are. When it comes down to the crunch, you might be one of those 5 left behind - while having spent your life assuming it would be the others that "litter" your church. You have no justification to instantly assign damnation to other 'christians' because your methods differ. At the end of the day the fact remains that you're all still christians no matter how differently you do things.


You are talking about little things concerning traditions and preferences. The disciples themselves thought that Mary was wasting her oil that could have been sold and fed many people. Jesus didn't care a like about any of that, only that Mary believed in Jesus as the son of God who is worthy of all blessings. Jesus doesn't care if you celebrate his birthday on June 24th or December 25th. It is enough to honor him.

A christian is defined as: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus.

You are right to a point, but my point is who is the judge? If it is I that say that I am a Christian, that is meaningless. If the people who I help and show Jesus to say that I am a Christian, that is when the person is. Even that doesn't matter. What matters is if God says you are a Christian. Being a Christian is not as simple as professing and following, you must also live it and not deal drugs, steal, lie, gossip, or any other malicious act in order to be labeled as a Christian. Otherwise you are a hypocrite, not a Christian.

I am a hypocrite, does that matter? Words are useless in defining a person, don't you understand that?


Belief in jesus as saviour is what qualifies someone as a christian. Let's look at it the other way..

I drink, smoke, swear and fart.. I like rampant sex with the wife and think Homer Simpson kicks ass. I am an atheist. I know other people that don't like sex, beer or cigarettes, don't swear and can't stand cartoons but they are still atheists.


And I know Christians who also do as you do, does that mean anything? Those are trivial things that are not important to your salvation.


The main problem is that the bible is so contradictory that nobody knows where they stand. jesus says that the top law that you can hang all the other laws on is: "love thy neighbour". Some christians do love their neighbours but have never looked after an orphan - and thus while still following jesus laws, have actually failed in following god's laws.


The Bible is not contradictory, it is people who can't interpret the interpretation because they get caught up in the words and do not look to God for the answers that are in the Bible.


jesus says "love thy neighbour", god says: "look after orphans". You've probably never even met an orphan, and you probably don't even remotely like your neighbour - but I'm sure you can find something in the bible that qualifies you as a christian. You still are a christian - you just do things differently to other christians.

How many orphans and widows have you looked after? In either case of course you're now failing to keep a tight rein on your tongue. You're all talk over the internet - safe from prying eyes.. You can boastfully claim you do measure up, but it is a sign that you're wagging your tongue - and thus you have already failed. Having said that, are you no longer a christian?


I don't do enough, so by my definition I am not a Christian. If you limit doing good to orphans and widows you have undercut the message of Christ: Love me with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. That I do, and I do love my neighbour and am there for him, as little as I know him I am there for him and he is for me.


It's not flawed at all. You just have a personal ideal of what a christian is, while happily negating anyone else that calls themself a christian but does not measure up to your personal expectations. I can assure you there are many christians who would state that you don't measure up to their expectations. Does that now make you a non-christian? Of course not, such a statement would be silly - and yet it's exactly what you're saying.


Yes, I have an opinion of what a Christian is and it is not what most of today's Christians are. And it is largely to do with what they are thinking, and I know because I used to think as they.


It is evolution at work. What, you honestly want it to be biblical law and nothing else? You'd still be out there stoning your children to death and committing other such atrocities like they do in the muslim world. It's somewhat a fundamentalist vs slightly sane battle. Some are hardcore loons that padlock their fannies and never get bonked and some are more relatively at ease who do have sex but ain't into anything kinky. It's a gradient, and no matter what end of the scale you're on, you're still christian if you profess belief in jesus as saviour.

No, one is who everyone else says one is. My point is that Chrisitians need to accept that the Bible was written by human hand and its interpretation is flawed as it has been translated as well as interpreted from God's word. Because of this, we need to do as the Christians did. They used their brain and debated and prayed until they reached a conclusion on the scriptures.

Aren't there other religions in america?

What, the 25% that are not Christian? All you need to win an election here is less than 50%.

You are talking about little things concerning traditions and preferences.

No, I'm stating that regardless to how you differ as christians does not make you any less christian. I've said it several times now but you keep missing it.

Jesus doesn't care if you celebrate his birthday on June 24th or December 25th.

Did he personally say that or are you just guessing? But in either case it isn't of any consequence. The point was that you do things differently to other christians, and yet you are all still christians.

You are right to a point, but my point is who is the judge?

The person who decides to believe in what he believes in. Again, he might not live up to your personal standards, or perhaps he is above your personal standards and would consider your type of christian as satan spawn - but you're all still christians. That's all there is to it.

If the people who I help and show Jesus to say that I am a Christian, that is when the person is.

Well then the issue is settled. I'm sure every single person calling themselves a christian can find someone else who they have helped that can say they're christian. So, there you have it..

What matters is if God says you are a Christian.

god says you're a christian if you help widows and oprhans - which means there's probably only 50 christians on the planet. How many orphans and widows have you ever met, let alone helped?

Being a Christian is not as simple as professing and following, you must also live it and not deal drugs, steal, lie, gossip, or any other malicious act in order to be labeled as a Christian. Otherwise you are a hypocrite, not a Christian.

Then it's seriously doubtful that there's any such thing as a christian.

I am a hypocrite, does that matter?

Yes it does. It then means that you're not a christian and as such have no rights to sit here trying to state who is or isn't a christian.

Words are useless in defining a person, don't you understand that?


Are you feeling ok?

And I know Christians who also do as you do, does that mean anything?

Yeah, but I guess the whole point went over your head.

Those are trivial things that are not important to your salvation.

Your salvation or damnation is not important to the discussion. The claim was made that America is not a christian nation. Considering it has a 75-80% christian population it is safe to say it is a christian nation. You my friend are simply arguing semantics - trying to tell me that many of them don't do it your way so they don't qualify - which is total bollocks. I can only hope they differ from you considering I even had to explain to you about human rights.

The fact of the matter is that America is a christian nation. You can spend your time arguing the finer points of how to conduct yourself with other christians, but that fact remains fact.

The Bible is not contradictory, it is people who can't interpret the interpretation because they get caught up in the words and do not look to God for the answers that are in the Bible.

But it is contradictory. The old "people can't read English as well as I can" excuse is absolute hogwash, made up by simpletons to try and excuse the fact that the bible is overrun with contradiction. We can go through a list of such contradictions at some other time.

If you limit doing good to orphans and widows you have undercut the message of Christ

Limit? See, that's a bad interpretation of the text. You don't see god saying to limit yourself to just that, but he does express it's importance, and that without doing so you ar, according to god, in a religion that is impure and faulty. If we go by that you are no longer a christian - but you would still classify yourself as a christian if someone asked you. That is how the statistic is taken. People don't check up to see how many orphans or widows you've helped, or whether you've ever told a lie - because then the statistic would say 0 christians in America. Someone who believe in jesus as saviour can't be classified as a hindu, muslim, satanist, atheist.. no - they're classified as a christian, because they believe in christ.

Love me with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. That I do, and I do love my neighbour and am there for him, as little as I know him I am there for him and he is for me.

And all the other christians would claim the very same thing - so we're back at 80%.

Yes, I have an opinion of what a Christian is and it is not what most of today's Christians are.

See? Even you called them christians. Thus is the point, thank you very much. America is a christian nation. Whether they measure up to your personal opinions is irrelevant.

My point is that Chrisitians need to accept that the Bible was written by human hand and its interpretation is flawed as it has been translated as well as interpreted from God's word.

Yes, it has been written by ancient people that didn't know much about anything - and that's why it's so flawed and contradictory. But that is irrelevant. Because you've never helped an orphan does not mean you're not christian. You still are a christian, and so are they.

Because of this, we need to do as the Christians did. They used their brain

I have yet to see one christian actually do that.

Is "god" supposed to be a male? If so, does he have a penis? He must have a penis if he is to be referred to as a male.

If so, how big is his penis? Does he get erections?

The whole concept of a "god" that looks like an old man, or is male, is ridiculous.
The notion that god is even remotely human is ridiculous.

Now if someone talks about "god' being all the energy or all the light in the universe, or some other physics thing, then i can respect their beliefs.

he's an old fart like someone else that I know here.
his "penis" is about an inch long.
thus, his preoccupation with fucking his children.

America is a Christian nation.

Okay, I see your point. I think there is a bad stereotype and misconception to the truth, but I must concede that 80% of the nation claims to be Christian. But that is as far is that goes. If the 80% are what God intended to be Christian, then I am not a Christian and I do not wish to be stereotyped into the cult. I follow Christ and have faith in God. I look to the Bible for clues, and do as I preach as much as I can, and I see my own failures to be perfect. But that is all I claim. Jesus is my savior, but I am not what is called a "Christian" in terms of what are defined and labeled as "Christians" in America. The new breed that I am are an ancient breed wakened to show the world what it means to not be the Christian you know of. We were among the first Christians, but we died in the Crusades. We are again reborn, and my brothers and sisters gather to proclaim the good news! Not damnation!

Is "god" supposed to be a male? If so, does he have a penis? He must have a penis if he is to be referred to as a male.

If so, how big is his penis? Does he get erections?

The whole concept of a "god" that looks like an old man, or is male, is ridiculous.
The notion that god is even remotely human is ridiculous.

Now if someone talks about "god' being all the energy or all the light in the universe, or some other physics thing, then i can respect their beliefs.

It says in scripture that we were made in the image of God. Now what that means is pure speculation. Jesus is referred to in scripture as the bridegroom. What conclusions can we draw from those two statements? How can an infinitely old God grow old? I don't see how, if he has a physical body (which is hinted at in Revelations) and is immortal, how he can biochemically degrade and yet continue existing. How could God be human at all, but we can still be made in the likeness of God and be human.

Jayleew is wrong - the USA is certainly a Christian nation by his definition. According to Barbara Victor, surveys show that there are 80 million Evangelical "born again" Christians in America, or getting on for a third of the entire population. If we assume that the majority of those are adults (no reason to do so, but lets just say) it gets on for well over 50% of the voting population. The President himself is an Evangelical. The Evangelical lobby has grown more and more powerful at the very highest levels of government consultation over the last twenty or so years. Ironically, the Evangelical movement found that the first "born again" President, Jimmy Carter, was not actually as much "their man in the White House" as Ronnie Reagan promised to be, despite the fact that Reagan was not actually devout. He just said the right things, which Carter did not, and the Family put their support behind Reagan, not Carter.

Something Jayleew said is right: America is not the nation it was established to be.Absolutely correct. America was established as a nation free from religious dogma having any kind of hold over the legislation of human affairs. America was established as a nation where people of any religious affiliation or none could consider themselves free to pursue their own beliefs in their own way. America is very definitely not that nation.