Osama bin-Laden is not Islam
Al-Qaeda is not Islam
Taliban is not Islam
Suicide bombings is not Islam
Public stoning is not Islam
Honour killings is not Islam


Islam is peace


The fanatical few have hijacked your religion. They are dragging Islam through the mud and who suffers? You do!

Tell me, moderate Muslims, why are you not protesting against all these things?
Where are the demonstrations against all the abovementioned?
Where are the Muslim masses saying with one big voice "We do not support these things! They are anti Islamic!"
Where are your demonstrations against the corrupt repressive governments that control your brethren back home?

Unless you separate yourselves vocaly from all these crimes, people will paint you with the Islamist brush.

That is what you see on American TV. Look past that into Arabic TV and into the lifes of Middle Eastern people. They interview radicals, talk to them about stopping. Muslim people do not support the methods of suicide bombing, attacking towers, etc. I have said it many times on this forum.

Originally posted by Pakman
That is what you see on American TV. Look past that into Arabic TV and into the lifes of Middle Eastern people. They interview radicals, talk to them about stopping. Muslim people do not support the methods of suicide bombing, attacking towers, etc. I have said it many times on this forum.


You can give him million sites, you can give million answers. They will not staisfy him ever. You can point out any thing postive but he or they will always look for negetive. It is the irony of religious nutters, either muslims or christians or in this case Jews. They are looking for negetives and only negetives.

Originally posted by otheadp

Islam is peace

Tell me, moderate Muslims, why are you not protesting against all these things?
Where are the demonstrations against all the abovementioned?
Where are the Muslim masses saying with one big voice "We do not support these things! They are anti Islamic!"
Where are your demonstrations against the corrupt repressive governments that control your brethren back home?

Unless you separate yourselves vocaly from all these crimes, people will paint you with the Islamist brush. [/B]

Which world you are living in ? I dont blame you if you watch FOX JEWS and the crapy CNN....

Muslims all over the world condemnd terrorism, even our scholars issued FATWAS condeming terrorism, here you have some examples:

-Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi Condemns Attacks Against Civilians: Forbidden in Islam

http://www.answering-christianity.com/us_attack_not_allowed.htm

-BBC NEWS : Saudi clerics condemn terrorism

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3157493.stm

-Islamic scholars condemn terrorism in USA:

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=1080

-A Message from the Council on American-Islamic Relations:

http://www.cair-net.org/crisiscenter/html/cair_ad.html

-Muslim Americans Condemn Attack :

http://www.islamicity.com/articles/Articles.asp?ref=AM0109-335

-Bin Laden's idea of 'jihad' is out of bounds, scholars say:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/39887_islam22.shtml

-British Muslims condemn the terrorist attacks:

http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/news/news.php?article=1062

-Canadian Muslims condemn terrorist attacks:

http://muslim-canada.org/news09112001.html

- BBC: Islamic world deplores US losses:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1544955.stm

-Muslim Reactions to September 11th:

http://www.crescentlife.com/heal%20the%20world/muslim_reactions_to_sept_11.htm

-NEW ZEALAND MUSLIMS CONDEMN TERRORISM:

http://www.angelfire.com/biz2/FIANZWEB16/PressRelease1.html

-KUALA LUMPUR DECLARATION ON INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM:
In the name of Islamic solidarity, we, the Foreign Ministers of the Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC), have gathered in Kuala Lumpur to state our collective resolve to combat terrorism and to respond to developments affecting Muslims and Islamic countries in the aftermath of the 11th September attacks...

http://www.oic-oci.org/english/fm/11_extraordinary/declaration.htm

-Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S:

http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2001-09/13/article18.shtml

- NATIONAL GEOGRAPHY:Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2001/09/0925_TVkoran.html

-BBC: UK Muslims condemn 'lunatic fringe':

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1554177.stm

-Iran's Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, has strongly condemned the suicide terrorist attacks in New York and Washington:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1549573.stm

And many more examples.....

The problem is the zionist-controled HYPOCRITICAL western media that wants to show Islam and muslims always as barbarians and terrorists, they dont give us the chance to speak and show you the 'OTHER' side of tolerant peaceful compassionate Islam, the REAL ISLAM.

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
they dont give us the chance to speak and show you the 'OTHER' side of tolerant peaceful compassionate Islam, the REAL ISLAM.
Show the west the true Islam not by words because we've heard enough. Show us by bringing to justice these people behind these muslim terrorist acts, identify and stop the muslim terrorist organisations thriving in the UK, USA, and other Western countries.

Start acting now and do something positive against muslim terrorism, identify these people and stop terrorism. Muslims know who are behind these horrific acts, and where they are.

Words alone are not enough.

Originally posted by Vienna
Show the west the true Islam not by words because we've heard enough.

My dear Vienna, it's so hard to do that, when the US and UK are secretely training the next AlQaeda to fight a Soviet Union or another bigger enemy. It's kindda hard for us to stop the next khomeiny when the US endorses and supports his government and kicks the moderate Shah out of sight because he wanted to run his own country. It's hard to control those fundementalists when Egypt's authority is being overruled when the US human rights group fight to free Elzawahri from the Egyptian jail under the Egyptian government nose. It's hard for us to do anything because under the mask, you and all westerners thrive and love the idea of a twisted, corrupt, and backward Islam. Just think about it, how else can you be so self rightous like you are right now, if you didn't have your own twisted version of Islam to pick on.

Originally posted by Flores
My dear Vienna, it's so hard to do that, when the US and UK are secretely training the next AlQaeda to fight a Soviet Union or another bigger enemy. It's kindda hard for us to stop the next khomeiny when the US endorses and supports his government and kicks the moderate Shah out of sight because he wanted to run his own country. It's hard to control those fundementalists when Egypt's authority is being overruled when the US human rights group fight to free Elzawahri from the Egyptian jail under the Egyptian government nose. It's hard for us to do anything because under the mask, you and all westerners thrive and love the idea of a twisted, corrupt, and backward Islam. Just think about it, how else can you be so self rightous like you are right now, if you didn't have your own twisted version of Islam to pick on.
So I take it that you don't condemn muslim terrorism and you are going to do nothing about it.

Originally posted by Vienna
So I take it that you don't condemn muslim terrorism and you are going to do nothing about it.

You are such a joke.....What the hell do you want me to do about it....? I'm living my life as second generation American, raising a family, holding a full time job, owning property, ect. I don't even go to a mosque or any religious institution because organized religion disgusts me. What do you want me to do? My time is occupied between my life duties and the most rebelious thing that I do is fund raising activities like preparing for the three day walk for breast cancer next August.

Please consider Socrates wisdom next time:
"A man who wishes to accomplish anything must have a private station and not a public one".

Meaning that your private life lived as a model life has more impact on the society than public associations and demonstrations. It's enough for me as a moderate muslim to live my life the right way and that's all the impact that I wish to make on this world.

Originally posted by Flores
You are such a joke.....What the hell do you want me to do about it....? I'm living my life as second generation American, raising a family, holding a full time job, owning property, ect. I don't even go to a mosque or any religious institution because organized religion disgusts me. What do you want me to do? My time is occupied between my life duties and the most rebelious thing that I do is fund raising activities like preparing for the three day walk for breast cancer next August.
OK, you're in no position to DO anything about it. Don't you even condemn it?

I told you that my position and the position of every moderate muslim is merely to live our lives properly. We don't have to pick and judge and carry slogans against filth to proof to you that we are right or to improve ourselves. Filth will sink on it's own and I don't want to be busy sinking with it even as one who is againest it.

Originally posted by Flores
I don't even go to a mosque or any religious institution because organized religion disgusts me.


It's enough for me as a moderate muslim to live my life
So tell me...

How DOES a moderate muslim live a life when organized religion disgusts them and doesn't go to a mosque???

:confused:

Originally posted by Flores
I told you that my position and the position of every moderate muslim is merely to live our lives properly. We don't have to pick and judge and carry slogans against filth to proof to you that we are right or to improve ourselves. Filth will sink on it's own and I don't want to be busy sinking with it even as one who is againest it.
I see, but surely even the qur'an is against this terrorism isn't it, and as a muslim you do follow the qur'an....don't you??

Originally posted by Vienna
So tell me...

How DOES a moderate muslim live a life when organized religion disgusts them and doesn't go to a mosque???

:confused:

Easy,
Nowhere in the Quran does it ever mention that I should organize with other people and discuss my religion. Nowhere in the Quran does it say that I'll go to hell for forbidding to share my believes with others that are not close family members. Nowhere in the Quran is there any basis for the twisted corrupted filthy views of Bin Laden.

Originally posted by Vienna
I see, but surely even the qur'an is against this terrorism isn't it, and as a muslim you do follow the qur'an....don't you??

I'm againest all these things and more in the way I apply them to MYSELF. I'm against them and I don't adopt them or come near them...This is the extent of me acting on my belief. I'm under no obligation nor am I required by the Quran to step out of my life and fight corruption in the world. There is a god who created the world and he is responsible for the good/bad/evil or the world. I'm merely responsible for myself and my acts to be againest evil is to stay away from evil...period....Why can't you understand such a simple rule of humanity....called responsbility.

Let me ask you one question Vienna, and please have patience with me and answer me clearly.

Explain to me briefly and graphically how does the court of justice hang a man that have been sentenced to death for being a serial killer?

Originally posted by Flores
Let me ask you one question Vienna, and please have patience with me and answer me clearly.

Explain to me briefly and graphically how does the court of justice hang a man that have been sentenced to death for being a serial killer?
I don't know, you tell me.

Hanging doesn't exist in the UK. OK!

Originally posted by Vienna
I don't know, you tell me.


It's easy Vienna. They put a rope around the guilty man's neck and tighten.

So I ask, why are you trying to hang Bin Laden and others by using other innocent muslim's neck. If you wish to hang Bin Laden, get yourself a rope, a horse, a strong tree, and most importantly a BIN LADEN. Unfortunately the west have the rope, horse, and the tree ready to go anytime without a BIN LADEN and every time they hear the world muslim, they hang whatever comes their way. Your logic defies all reason and doesn't apply to the simplest rules of justice that each man/woman is responsible for their actions.

You are actively saying over and over again that each and every muslim is guilty for the simple fact that they privately "submit to one creator" until proven innocent by your impossible unfair standards.

Originally posted by Flores


You are actively saying over and over again that each and every muslim is guilty for the simple fact that they privately "submit to one creator" until proven innocent by your impossible unfair standards.
You spew bullshit, thats not the way I think and you know it. However you are quick to defend against people who mention muslim terrorism, yet you show yourself as idle and silent in stopping it. Speaks volumes!!!!!

Originally posted by Vienna
However you are quick to defend against people who mention muslim terrorism, Speaks volumes!!!!!

I hope you got the message loud and clear. The message is that I hate your guts because your are one of the most prejudice, unfair, self rightous, angry, idiots on this forums. It's really unpleasant to read you, given that I do enjoy reading almost everyone here. You are indeed less than average white european trash that is floating and gloating over other's accomplishments...Wake up and smell the roses, UK is the slave dirty whore of the US, so kiss your fake pride goodbye and work the streets like you're trained to do, and realize that UK (The bad European apple) is the NUMBER ONE reason that Europe is not united nor advancing.

Originally posted by Flores
I hope you got the message loud and clear. The message is that I hate your guts because your are one of the most prejudice, unfair, self rightous, angry, idiots on this forums. It's really unpleasant to read you, given that I do enjoy reading almost everyone here. You are indeed less than average white european trash that is floating and gloating over other's accomplishments...Wake up and smell the roses, UK is the slave dirty whore of the US, so kiss your fake pride goodbye and work the streets like you're trained to do, and realize that UK (The bad European apple) is the NUMBER ONE reason that Europe is not united nor advancing.
Muslims always speak their true feelings when the truth is spoken.

Originally posted by Vienna
Show the west the true Islam not by words because we've heard enough. Show us by bringing to justice these people behind these muslim terrorist acts, identify and stop the muslim terrorist organisations thriving in the UK, USA, and other Western countries.

Words alone are not enough. [/B]

The west has a vital duty as well, STOP supporting the Israeli brutal terrorism against the palestineans, this american/western suppoted terrorism fuels the hate and rage against the west and recruit more and more terrorists.

GET THE HELL OUT OF IRAQ, your aggression against YET another muslim country will only lead to more terrorism.

your sick foriegn policies made the world less safe.

www.motherofevil.com

Originally posted by Vienna
OK, you're in no position to DO anything about it. Don't you even condemn it?

WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ???????? FILTHY HYPOCRITES

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
GET THE HELL OUT OF IRAQ, your aggression against YET another muslim country will only lead to more terrorism.
I would love to see our troops leave Iraq today if it was possible.

Originally posted by Vienna
Muslims always speak their true feelings when the truth is spoken.

I dont know that you have monopoly over the 'truth' !!

:rolleyes:

Where are the Moderate muslims????


well,since u've cared to ask---- there arent any......

A moslem is either a fanatic or nothing.scratch any self proclaimed moderate moslem on the surface and the fanatic will come to light.. more so when words such as "Jerusalem" and " palestine " come into the conversation. one hears of secular jews and secular christians ,, heck even of secular hindus, but u will NEVER EVER hear of secular moslems. it is an oxy-MORON

yes,,, yes,,, you will hear of the usual dialogues such as:

islam is a religion of peace
ubl (bin laden ) dosent represent islam
the taliban are not islam

but u should always remember -- islam was founded by the sword and propogated by the sword.. it will eventually die by the sword......

as for being a religion of peace ,, may this wonderful site suggest otherwise:
www.rawa.org

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
I dont know that you have monopoly over the 'truth' !!
I don't have a monopoly over the truth, but I can show the truth. If this is not so, show me where I've lied.

Originally posted by Vienna
Muslims always speak their true feelings when the truth is spoken.

Correction,
Muslims always speak their true feelings....period...

Originally posted by Gevidopa
Where are the Moderate muslims????
well,since u've cared to ask---- there arent any......
as for being a religion of peace ,, may this wonderful site suggest otherwise:
www.rawa.org

You contradicted yourself and answered your question in the very same sentence. The president of rawa is a muslim woman who is making a revolution and speaking to free Islam from the misconceptions of the few criminals who were hired by the US to fight the russians. She is a muslim and have never denounced her religion inorder to attack the agressors. She was assasinated in 1987 by christian russian agents.

Originally posted by Gevidopa
Where are the Moderate muslims????


well,since u've cared to ask---- there arent any......

A moslem is either a fanatic or nothing.scratch any self proclaimed moderate moslem on the surface and the fanatic will come to light.. more so when words such as "Jerusalem" and " palestine " come into the conversation. one hears of secular jews and secular christians ,, heck even of secular hindus, but u will NEVER EVER hear of secular moslems. it is an oxy-MORON

yes,,, yes,,, you will hear of the usual dialogues such as:

islam is a religion of peace
ubl (bin laden ) dosent represent islam
the taliban are not islam

but u should always remember -- islam was founded by the sword and propogated by the sword.. it will eventually die by the sword......

as for being a religion of peace ,, may this wonderful site suggest otherwise:
www.rawa.org
I agree with evrything you say Gevidopa

I liked your "usual dialogues" :)

Here are a few more dialogues that you are likely to hear when conversing with a muslim:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is not a single ‘true Muslim’ even though there are 1.2 billion of us.

There is not a single ‘pure’ Islamic country.

A perfect Islamic state is yet to be founded.

Ayatollah Khomeini was an enemy of Islam.

Pakistan, Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, Nigeria…these Islamic Paradise do not follow ‘real’ Islam.

Saudi Arabian Islam is corrupted.

Not all Sahi hadis are Sahi.

The Quran is an ancient scripture; many of its provisions are not relevant now (the Quran says it is an eternal book, and its provisions are alive forever).

Tyrants and dictators rule Islamic countries; they have no idea about Islam.

Since most of the barbarism of Islam is in the Sha’ria, therefore, Sha’ria cannot be a part of ‘real’ Islam.

The clergy/Mullahs do not know ‘real Islam.’

In Islam, there is no ‘clergy’, so you may practice Islam in your own way.

But for Islam/Muslim/Arab scientists, the west would have never achieved modernity and progress. ‘Real Islam’ civilized the west.

The best country to practice ‘real Islam’ is the USA, Canada, UK and Australia!

You cannot practice ‘real Islam’ in Islamic Paradises like Pakistan, Bangladesh, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Malaysia, Nigeria, Iran…etc. You must not use these countries as examples of Islamic practices.

Wahabism is not ‘real Islam’.

Alqaeda/Osama is not ‘true’ Islam.

Talibans are not ‘true’ Muslims.

Shias are not ‘true’ Muslims.

Sunnis are not ‘true’ Muslims.

Amhedia/Kadiani are heretics, not Muslims but Dr. Abdus Salam (an Ahmedi) was a devout Muslim because he received Nobel Prize in Physics.

Islam means ‘peace’ although the true meaning is ‘submission’ or surrender.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where do muslims get these ideas from ....

Vienna,
Instead of wasting your time vomitting useless sentences, while trying to fit the concept of "submittion to god" into one of your cookie cutters, why don't you just summarize your findings for us..... Here's my summary:

Muslims don't like their religion to become a public theatre for your amusement. Muslims are trying in so many ways to separate their private believes from the corrupt world. Muslims want to worship their creator in peace.

When was the last time we had five million christians stuck in a small space as peacefully as muslims are successfully able to do every year.

http://www.fsonline.net/May2003/Religious/PicturesOfKaaba.htm

Originally posted by Flores
Correction,
Muslims always speak their true feelings....period...

Originally posted by Flores
You are indeed less than average white european trash that is floating and gloating over other's accomplishments...Wake up and smell the roses, UK is the slave dirty whore of the US, so kiss your fake pride goodbye and work the streets like you're trained to do, and realize that UK (The bad European apple) is the NUMBER ONE reason that Europe is not united nor advancing.
Your right Flores, that is exactly how muslims see the West.

Not only that Vienna is a prejudice son of a bitch, he is master of deception and decoy.

Obviously you have no purpose for your life to dedicate so much time into bashing a concept that doesn't even remotely pertain to your life....Speaks volumes about what a waste of time personality you really are.

Originally posted by Flores
When was the last time we had five million christians stuck in a small space as peacefully as muslims are successfully able to do every year.
http://www.fsonline.net/May2003/Religious/PicturesOfKaaba.htm
I don't know, go ask a Christian. If you think I'm impressed with photos of thousands of people with their arses stuck up in the air then you are going to be dissapointed.

Originally posted by Flores
Not only that Vienna is a prejudice son of a bitch, he is master of deception and decoy.
Whats the matter with you lady.

I only quoted what you said, whats the problem?

I'm done with this discussion specially after finding out that Vienna is really short for Mcveigh...the problem is that the bastard Vienna is not easily spotted like the ugly arabic terrorists. He's white and cute, but damn, don't tell me I didn't warn you of his likes.

Originally posted by Vienna
I don't have a monopoly over the truth, but I can show the truth. If this is not so, show me where I've lied.

I will repeat the question that you escaped answering:

WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ???????? FILTHY HYPOCRITES

Originally posted by Flores
Vienna,

When was the last time we had five million christians stuck in a small space as peacefully as muslims are successfully able to do every year.

http://www.fsonline.net/May2003/Religious/PicturesOfKaaba.htm [/B]

That was an excellent question.....I am sure the uncircumcized loser has no answer !!

:D

few criminals who were hired by the US to fight the russians.

the few criminals u speak of turned out to be the taliban who reduced the progressive state of afghanisthan into "The purest Islamic State"- to which a majority of moslems discreetly support.(as evidenced by the amount of funding the receive-and i dont think its just a handful of businessmen who are responsible for this)

Mind you , the Taliban and their american protege- Bin laden
were funded by the West and armed by the Jews..

this was known even to Gen Zia ul Huq , dictator of Pakistan(the country that the americans used as the condom to enter afghanistan)
who joked that the west should make sure that the Magen David did not appear on the arms crates!



She was assasinated in 1987 by christian russian agents.


At the time of which u speak, my friend-- It was the Soviet Union which was in existence-USSR--- get it-- the GODLESS COMMUNIST KAFIRS.... YES? Religion didnt seem to be their strongpoint at that time---much less christian fundamentalism.:bugeye:

really, - your ignorance is ENCYCLOPEDIC

Originally posted by Flores
I'm done with this discussion specially after finding out that Vienna is really short for Mcveigh...the problem is that the bastard Vienna is not easily spotted like the ugly arabic terrorists. He's white and cute, but damn, don't tell me I didn't warn you of his likes.
LOL!!! My god that photo is a good likeness of me.

:D

oh my....
look how much hate.

syrian:
WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ???????? FILTHY HYPOCRITES
but it is fought. very strongly.
many many priests are exposed and brought to justice.

those Muslim organizations who condemned 9/11, that you quoted, all they did was "issue a statement of condemnation".

have they had internal audits of their charities?
has there been a single.. ONE... demonstration against al-qaeda... ANYWHERE in the world.. by MUSLIMS?
and not only al-qaeda... but militant [so called] Islam ?

it is one thing when the political leaders of Muslim communities around the world do the political dance by merely issuing a statement..
it's another thing where a mass demonstration is organized where people say "we are not supporting this sort of thing. we are peaceful citizens!"

i have seen plenty demonstrations on my campus against the invasion of iraq, and pro-palestinian demonstrations...
but not a single time, have i seen, Muslim students organizing something small to show "we are Muslims, and we are disgusted with these tactics.. these suicide bombings..." etc.

the theory is, as was told to me by the autor of this site (http://www.muslim-refusenik.com) when she was a guest speaker at my campus. is that ordinary Muslims are afraid to be shunned by their friends... because any sign of speaking out would mean being condemned for being "zionist agents" or "anti Islamic".
in other words, they don't want to be ostracized, thus they keep their mouth shut.

Originally posted by Gevidopa
At the time of which u speak, my friend-- It was the Soviet Union which was in existence-USSR--- get it-- the GODLESS COMMUNIST KAFIRS.... YES? Religion didnt seem to be their strongpoint at that time---much less christian fundamentalism.:bugeye:

really, - your ignorance is ENCYCLOPEDIC

Not only that you have no live cells in your brains, you seem to be blind and deprived from the gift of world travelling......Have you ever been to Russia, Moscow in particular??. Obviously not.

Well, I have, and I must say, the christian architecture is breath taking.....obviously your GODLESS state didn't demolish any of those ancient beauties.

http://www.shsu.edu/~stdnmm17/album.html

This is the Kremlin and is the heart of Russian politics. The President of the Russian Federation resides in the capital building which is located within the confines of these walls. This picture gives a view of the Kremlin from across the Moscow River. It displays the onion domes of the many churches located within the confines of the walls of the Kremlin.

another thing.. i think it is morally wrong for a Muslim to say "well, look at the problems with the other religions. they have problems so I don't have to fix things at MY house"

there are enough books by Muslims how bad the Bible is... and visaversa, Christians books saying how bad Islam is.

what is needed more is Muslim books and scholars analyzing their own, Muslim, problems.
because only when a Muslim is doing the critisizing is when the criticizing has any real value.

otherwise, if an outsider is criticizing, it can always be dismissed as racist or "he's not Muslim so how the hell can he understand Islam?"

i wonder... is it possible to be pro-palestinian but condemn any use of suicide bombings?

Originally posted by otheadp
another thing.. i think it is morally wrong for a Muslim to say "well, look at the problems with the other religions. they have problems so I don't have to fix things at MY house"


And isn't morally wrong for a christian to ignore their own houses and adopt Islam as a scapegoat for all their problems. If I'm not mistaken, the thread starter is exactly what you describe above....A non muslim who is saying over and over again..."Well, look at the problems with the muslims"...

Originally posted by otheadp
i wonder... is it possible to be pro-palestinian but condemn any use of suicide bombings?

Of course....I'm one of those that support Palestenians yet condemns the tools used by their corrupt leader.

isn't morally wrong for a christian to ignore their own houses and adopt Islam as a scapegoat for all their problems
it is very wrong

but in comparison, the Church gets internally scrutinized... A LOT.

the thread starter is exactly what you describe above
a) the idea for this thread i got from a Muslim lecturer at my campus. here's her web site. http://www.muslim-refusenik.com

b) what i'm trying to do is get Muslims evaluate and question themselves... my analysis of Islam, i think, doesn't carry much weight with Muslims since i'm not a Muslim

c) the attitude in your reply is exactly what i'm talking about. you are pointing at me and saying "i'ts not your place to judge me"
but that's in essence what i'm saying! it's not! you, as a Muslim should be doing that

(edit):
the "you" is not you particularly, obviously, it's Muslim communities around the world.
this phoenomena is almost non-existant!
what is it that makes Muslims afraid of speaking, publically, vocally, passionately against all those horrible things that THEIR extremists are doing? why are they not separating themselves from it all?

Originally posted by otheadp
b) what i'm trying to do is get Muslims evaluate and question themselves...


LOL....you're quite a fresh breath of air....What's next? You're going to TEACH me how to reflect and form prespectives.


Originally posted by otheadp
my analysis of Islam, i think, doesn't carry much weight with Muslims since i'm not a Muslim


Then why are you trying to get me to evaluate myself?..LOL....Ever try to light up your own house before trying to become the street light pole.

Originally posted by otheadp
c) the attitude in your reply is exactly what i'm talking about. you are pointing at me and saying "i'ts not your place to judge me"



You're damn right. What you are doing is called, religious descrimination. Don't judge me because I believe I'm a creation just like everything else in this universe and that's I'm accountable to a creator for all my actions.

Originally posted by otheadp
but that's in essence what i'm saying! it's not! you, as a Muslim should be doing that

SHOULD.....???? Get a life please....ever heard of what happens to people that hated the onion so much and tried to insert themselves between the onion's peels to convince each peel to rebel againest the other......I'll tell you, the only lesson they learned is that "onion is stinky"....I don't care if you don't like onions, I love it raw or cooked and will continue to eat it...Now you get out of our business and enjoy your steak instead.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by otheadp
syrian:
WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ???????? FILTHY HYPOCRITES
but it is fought. very strongly.
many many priests are exposed and brought to justice.
==================================
P S:

oh really !!!!!!! so you said it was fought and you expect us to take your words for that !!!!!!

:rolleyes:
==================================

have they had internal audits of their charities?
has there been a single.. ONE... demonstration against al-qaeda... ANYWHERE in the world.. by MUSLIMS?
and not only al-qaeda... but militant [so called] Islam ?
====================================
P S:

Have the christians have any DEMONESTRATION against PEADOPHILIA in the church ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD????????

HYPOCRITES.

=====================================

i have seen plenty demonstrations on my campus against the invasion of iraq, and pro-palestinian demonstrations...
but not a single time, have i seen, Muslim students organizing something small to show "we are Muslims, and we are disgusted with these tactics.. these suicide bombings..." etc.
=====================================
P S:

As I said, I dont blame you if you watch FOX JEWS and the ZNN ( zionist national news ).....there was plenty of demos in many parts of the muslim worlds, one of them took place in THE WEST BANK IN FRONT OF THE UN OFFICE BY PALESTINEANS CONDEMING 9/11........but of course, your biased hypocritical media did not show it.

Originally posted by Vienna
LOL!!! My god that photo is a good likeness of me.



I am still waiting an answer, are you to embarrassed to answer ?

WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ???????? FILTHY HYPOCRITES

Originally posted by otheadp
i wonder... is it possible to be pro-palestinian but condemn any use of suicide bombings?

Yes it is possible....but I am wondering if it is possible to be an Israeli and condemn the nazi-like occupation of the palestinean land !!!

Then why are you trying to get me to evaluate myself?..
who else is going to do it if not you? me??

What you are doing is called, religious descrimination
if you go back to my previous posts i've said that a) it's not my place to judge you since i'm not a Muslim. b) my judgement wouldn't carry much weight anyways, for the same reason -- i'm not a Muslim

SHOULD.....???? Get a life please....
your attitude is very problematic.
you're saying "you can't judge me. it's religious descrimination"
and, you're saying "i refuse to judge myself and my religion"
so you're refusing to self-evaluate, by taking the easy way out -- calling me a bigot. *clap clap*

who IS GONG TO do that? who SHOULD do that?

================
Yes it is possible....but I am wondering if it is possible to be an Israeli and condemn the nazi-like occupation of the palestinean land !!!
a) if it's possible, are you such a Muslim? do you think the Muslim militant groups are wrong by using suicide bombings in Israel?
b) yes it is possible to be Israel and condemn the so-called occupation. just read Israeli news papers and you'll see that Israeli society is divided about the issue.
c) again, you are pointing the finger at the other side... that's an easy escape. what if the Israeli society was completely unified regarding the "occupation"? would that make suicide bombings ok?

WHY THE HELL YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY CHRISTIAN IN THE WORLD TO CONDEMN AND FIGHT THE PEADOPHILIA AMD CHILD ABUSE THAT IS RAGING IN THE CHURCH ????????
a) your'e doing the same thing. why point out the fault of others? take care of your own shortcomings.
b) i tell you again... the Church gets very scrutinized both from the upper echelons in its own organization, and by the public, and by the courts, and by the gov't, and by the media.
there are new rules for priests (introduced speicfically for the prevention of abuse) on how to conduct ceremonies... so they won't get a chance... priests also get lectured on how to avoid this sort of behaviour.... etc etc.

Originally posted by otheadp
SHOULD.....???? Get a life please....
your attitude is very problematic.
you're saying "you can't judge me. it's religious descrimination"
and, you're saying "i refuse to judge myself and my religion"
so you're refusing to self-evaluate, by taking the easy way out -- calling me a bigot. *clap clap*

who IS GONG TO do that? who SHOULD do that?


You such a fucktard.....When did I refuse to self-evaluate myself??? I do evaluate myself all the time, but don't hold your breath that I would share this information with you. What does your majesty suggest that I do...hold a public convention or write a book about my self assessment....How about if you invite me to speak about my muslim experience infront of your class so you can get an A..... My private life is my fucking business and all you're doing is religuos discrimination and a labeling exercise.

If you think that I'll train you into becoming a human being, then you're dreaming.....As I said before, get a life...you're too damn boring, you and your labeling shallow homeworks.

but don't hold your breath that I would share this information with you
yes. keep it secret. the world must not know that you don't support suicide bombings! :rolleyes:

hold a public convention or write a book about my self assessment?
YES! make the general non-Muslim public know you're NOT A FUNDAMENTALIST... that there are Muslims in the world that are AGAINST fundamentalism.. MANY of them!!
and, SHOW OTHER MUSLIMS THEY SHOULDN'T BE AFRAID to be vocal against atrocities committed by their extremists.. that they shouldn't be afraid to separate themselves from it all!

How about if you invite me to speak about my muslim experience infront of your class so you can get an A.....
i couldn't care less about getting an A.
i do care about social harmony.
you'd be doing yourself and your community a great service if you do speak publically.
dialogue is good
being secretive and non-dialogue-ish is not good.

My private life is my fucking business and all you're doing is religuos discrimination and a labeling exercise
i don't need to know about your private life. i need to know you're against Muslim fanatics... until you publically say so, i'll be afraid of you. get it?

You such a fucktard
you do realize name calling reduces you and the strength of your arguments... don't you?

Originally posted by otheadp
a) your'e doing the same thing. why point out the fault of others? take care of your own shortcomings.

Now stand infront of the mirror and repeat these wise words to yourself 50 times. If it makes you feel any better, you may stand directly under a hot lamp to make your self-interrogation excercise more effective.

Good luck with your issues....and in balancing the chemical imbalance in your brain.

Originally posted by Flores
Now stand infront of the mirror and repeat these wise words to yourself 50 times. If it makes you feel any better, you may stand directly under a hot lamp to make your self-interrogation excercise more effective.

Good luck with your issues....and in balancing the chemical imbalance in your brain.

the ancient greeks said pride is the worst sin of them all. those who are proud are punished the most severely by the gods.


PAKMAN, i'm waiting for your response... since you're the most level headed Muslim on this board

Originally posted by otheadp
the ancient greeks said pride is the worst sin of them all. those who are proud are punished the most severely by the gods.


When you are done with the fifty repetition self evaluating excercise, please repeat the above 100 more times to yourself....Drink plenty of fluids, and again good luck balancing the chemical imbalance in your noggin.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flores
I hope you got the message loud and clear. The message is that I hate your guts because your are one of the most prejudice, unfair, self rightous, angry, idiots on this forums. It's really unpleasant to read you, given that I do enjoy reading almost everyone here. You are indeed less than average white european trash that is floating and gloating over other's accomplishments...Wake up and smell the roses, UK is the slave dirty whore of the US, so kiss your fake pride goodbye and work the streets like you're trained to do, and realize that UK (The bad European apple) is the NUMBER ONE reason that Europe is not united nor advancing.
----------
M*W: Flores, don't beat your beautiful Muslim head against a brick wall (or stubborn worthless Brit) who is also a degenerate psychopath. You do not have to answer to him or to anyone. He's pissed off because the UK is no longer WASP. He promotes de-evolution back to the Dark Ages. He needs to be on some serious psychotropic medication.

flores, don't reduce yourself to childish bickering.

are you against "Muslims speaking out against Muslim fundamentalists"?
do you think it's un Islamic to organize mass demonstrations BY THE PEOPLE (Muslims) showing this?
do you think it's counter-productive? would increase hate? what is it that you don't like about it????

there's a Muslim girl at my campus who is going to organize a demonstration for Muslims against suicide bombings (by palestinian groups among others).

do you think she is pathetic? a traitor? a zionist agent?

Thank you MW. I wish that I get paid one dollar for every duh! question on this site....We would all be millionaires?:D

ANOTHER QUESTION:

WHY YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY JEW IN THE WORLD TO STAND UP AND CONDEMN THE BRUTAL BARBARIC ATROCITIES THAT THE JEWS ARE COMMITING IN PALESTINE ?????????

Originally posted by otheadp
Flores, Don't reduce yourself to child bickering...


I have to admit, it's incredibly hard to reduce myself to your level.

Originally posted by otheadp
are you against "Muslims speaking out against Muslim fundamentalists"?



Absoletely not....Power be to them, but I'm not the demonstrating type, so excuse me from not attenting. it's a free country and I'm free to abstain from demonstrations.


Originally posted by otheadp
do you think it's un Islamic to organize mass demonstrations BY THE PEOPLE (Muslims) showing this?


I'm not the judge of what is Islamic and what is un Islamic? That's what fundamentalists do....they label us into Kafirs, Muslims, believers, ect....I'm not interested in such labeling...whether it's in the name of Islam, reforming Islam, or againest Islam.

Originally posted by otheadp
do you think it's counter-productive? would increase hate? what is it that you don't like about it????

I think it is very good to speak againest the misconceptions of Islam such as suicide bombing, Jihad, ect.... Yet, I'm an engineer by education and experience and thus I'm more productive to my society when I stick to building roads, hospitals, environmental enhancemenet projects, ect....It's of no use to the society for me to clutter up the transportation system, waste papers, and litter, in the name of demonstrating. That's mere ignorance. How would you feel if your muslim doctor who needs to operate on a sick child, strikes for Palestine rights and takes off to demonstrate againest suicide bombing???

Originally posted by Proud_Syrian
ANOTHER QUESTION:

WHY YOU HYPOCRITES DONT ASK EVERY JEW IN THE WORLD TO STAND UP AND CONDEMN THE BRUTAL BARBARIC ATROCITIES THAT THE JEWS ARE COMMITING IN PALESTINE ?????????

you keep pointing at other people's houses. why don't you take care of your own problems?
Jews scrutinize themselves about this. there are enough of us who do. there are "Jews against zionizm" and "Neturei Karta" and many others. guys like Norman Finkelstein and Noam Chomsky. all these are VOCAL and ACTIVE on these issues. but all this is IRRELEVANT to this particular thread. i've mentioned this to you twice before, this is the 3rd time.

answer my other questions please.

I think it is very good to speak againest the misconceptions of Islam such as suicide bombing, Jihad, ect....
i'm very happy to hear you say that.


Yet, I'm an engineer by education and experience and thus I'm more productive to my society when I stick to building roads, hospitals, environmental enhancemenet projects, ect....It's of no use to the society for me to clutter up the transportation system, waste papers, and litter, in the name of demonstrating.
aHAH!
"leave it to beaver.."
let someone else take care of it... right?

That's whay fundamentalists do....they label us into Kafirs, Muslims, believers, ect
doesn't that make you angry?
you follow Islam to the best of your abilities, yet there's some guy who tells you you're an infidel for not supporting his views

do you think there should be more... MUCH more demonstrations by Muslims against this sort of bullshit?

Originally posted by otheadp
you keep pointing at other people's houses. why don't you take care of your own problems?


Thanks for pointing the obevious, it is our own problems NOT YOURS.....So, go FIRST and ask your fellow JEWS to stand up and condemn the barbaric terrorist actions of the jewish squatters who stole our land in Palestine...!!

syrian can you stay on topic for once?
there are other threads about how evil zionists are (i don't agree but that's irrelevant, right?) many many.

this thread is about Islam.

So, go FIRST and ask your fellow JEWS to stand up and condemn the barbaric terrorist actions of the jewish squatters who stole our land in Palestine...!!
why?
are you saying that you refuse to check the problems with Islam today until the whole israeli-arab conflict is resolved? :(

it seems like you're completely ignoring what i wrote..
THERE ARE JEWS who are doing that. (i personally don't agree with them...but there are people like that... ACTIVE and VOCAL)

Originally posted by otheadp

So, go FIRST and ask your fellow JEWS to stand up and condemn the barbaric terrorist actions of the jewish squatters who stole our land in Palestine...!!
why?
are you saying that you refuse to check the problems with Islam today until the whole israeli-arab conflict is resolved? :(

[/B]

I am saying that MOST of this so called Islamic terrorism is related to the BARBARIC CRIMES Israel is commiting against Muslims in Palestine under the patronage of America....

and that makes it ok? (the suicide bombings)
from a religious moral point of view?

do you think suicide bombings are part of Islam? is it moral, according to Islamic beliefs to do what the suicide bombers are doing? even for the most extreme reasons?

is it moral, according to Islamic beliefs to do what the suicide bombers are doing? even for the most extreme reasons?
Suicide bombings, terrorism ... ultimately they have nothing to do with religion - any religion. It's conceivable that non-fundamentalist muslims (that's the vast, vast majority) don't consider the perpertrators to be muslim at all. Why then ask that they question their faith?

It's conceivable that non-fundamentalist muslims (that's the vast, vast majority) don't consider the perpertrators to be muslim at all
that's probably the case. but there's not enough noise about it from those non fundamentalists.

as i said, i've never ever even heard of a demonstration of Muslims condemning suicide bombings.

sure, i've read some condemnation statements from Muslim community leaders.... regarding 9/11

but that's rare... and it's only a political dance

what's missing is mass demonstrations.
the avg. citizen has no clue about politics. all he knows that there are fanatics who murder and blow people up in the name of Islam.... and that their cities and countries are full of Muslim immigrants...

if i was that average citizen, i'd be afraid of my Muslim neighbour, of which i know nothing about.
sure i could go and study about Islam (who's going to do that though? especially thoroughly?)... but those Muslims are not telling the world they're anti suicide-bombings.

if some Muslim public figure said something publicly against terrorism, i'd be skeptic at best
but if i saw mass demonstrations (WHICH ARE NOT HAPPENING) i'd not be afraid to send my kids to school with kids of Muslims...
(the "i" here is from the point of view of the avg. citizen)

i'd not be afraid to send my kids to school with kids of Muslims...
This type of fear would be a product of ignorance, not the fact that Muslims haven't been demonstrating enough.

Personally, and I think someone's said much the same thing already, I haven't seen many Christians out there rallying against the Baptist Church's support of Christian terrorism in Tripura, say.

Now that I would expect to see, because I think there's a greater chance that something could be achieved, atrocities stopped. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure whyit is that you believe that Osama bin Laden et al would pay any attention to the public displays of disapproval by "westernised" (and particularly American) muslims.

Seems to me that the only purpose that would be served is reassuring the irrational fears of non-muslim Americans. Which again, is best done through education.

Originally posted by otheadp
and that makes it ok? (the suicide bombings)
from a religious moral point of view?

do you think suicide bombings are part of Islam? is it moral, according to Islamic beliefs to do what the suicide bombers are doing? even for the most extreme reasons?

Why you concentrate on the suicide bombers and not on the brutal israeli policies that produces such suicide bombers ??

There is NO difference between Palestinean suicide martyer using the only mean available to him to deliver the bomb and between an Israeli terrorist pilot wrapping himself with 'American' made fighter jet to deliver the bomb.

This type of fear would be a product of ignorance, not the fact that Muslims haven't been demonstrating enough
ignorance. tha'ts right. people don't know.
why do they not know? because Muslims didn't didn't tell them.
not every guy/girl in the world is bright and conducts debates on sciforums. the avg. ppl are morons. to expect them to just know things is wrong.

I haven't seen many Christians out there rallying against the Baptist Church's support of Christian terrorism in Tripura
i don't think people even know where that is.
there might be Christian terrorism somewhere in the world but
a) it doesn't affect the entire world
b) people are fighting Christian terrorism. Christians are fighting Christian terrorism

king Fahd and crown prince Abdullah of saudi arabia didn't think that terror was their problem. they only decided to speak out once their kingdom was bombed twice ..or was it 3 times.

Seems to me that the only purpose that would be served is reassuring the irrational fears of non-muslim Americans. Which again, is best done through education.
you're right.
whether the fear is irrational, i don't know. i think it's 100% rational. people just don't know. but if someone tells them, hopefully the source... not their teacher... then that fear would disappear. if it won't disappear, THEN it would be irrational.

Why you concentrate on the suicide bombers and not on the brutal israeli policies that produces such suicide bombers ??
and why do you concentrate on Israeli actions (i hope you noticed i'm not arguing on who's right here... i think u know what i'd argue though) instead of palestinian actions?
the question here is not "who's right" or "who causes what"
it is suicide bombings.

syrian, answer my question:
do you think suicide bombings are part of Islam? is it moral, according to Islamic beliefs to do what the suicide bombers are doing, even for the most extreme reasons?

you also said (quote):
---------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by otheadp
i wonder... is it possible to be pro-palestinian but condemn any use of suicide bombings?
Yes it is possible.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
so why not be pro-palestinian AND condemn suicide bombings?

syrian, answer my question:
do you think suicide bombings are part of Islam? is it moral, according to Islamic beliefs to do what the suicide bombers are doing, even for the most extreme reasons?
===================================

I answered already many times, IT IS NOT PART OF ISLAM, no where in the noble quran you will find any reference to suicide bombings, it only exits in the bible as I explained in my separate thread.

Now, answer my question:

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PALESTINEAN SUICIDE MARTYER USING THE ONLY MEAN AVAILABLE TO HIM TO DELIVER THE BOMB AND AN ISRAELI PILOT WRAPING HIMSELF WITH 'AMERICAN' FIGHTER JET TO DELIVER THE BOMB ???

no where in the noble quran you will find any reference to suicide bombings
but there are many Muslims who quote directly from the Qur'an when they talk about suicide bombings.
and pretty much all those suicide bombers think it's pure Islam.
in fact, if they'd know that you said what you said (that it has nothing to do with Islam) they'd call you a Kafir. what do you think about that.

palestinian suicide bombers too. they're all very religious.
THEY SAY it is part of Islam.

do you think they should stop?

I answered already many times
you haven't answered this:
do you think it's moral for a Muslim to do suicide bombing? does Qur'an forbid something like that?

it's a yes/no question.

if it's against the Qur'an, then do you think the palestinian groups should stop it? (not their "struggle" but only this particular method)
Ghandi achieved his political objectives in India without any violence. that definitely shows that this: PALESTINEAN SUICIDE MARTYER USING THE ONLY MEAN AVAILABLE TO HIM is wrong.
unless the objective is merely to : DELIVER THE BOMB, as you say

only a few days ago the government of Georgia was overthrown without a single life lost. the Georgians called it the "Velvet Revolution"

as you can see, there haven't been any suicide bombings in israel and therefore no jet attacks.
although many suicide bombers have been caught before they could explode

Originally posted by otheadp
[b]

otheadp; I disagree with sucide bombings but I don't know what those sucide bombers went through and targeting civilian is wrong for either palestanians or Israelis but a retarded comment by you and vienna about, taliban al-qeda and sucide bombers where he and you tried to paint them as Islam is pretty pathetic. They can be called as muslims or atleast they believe they are muslims but they are not Islam. If you know English, I am sure you know what I am talking about. It is like calling Mcveigh or Hitler or Milosevic 'Christianity' and not 'Christians'.

:cool:

i think you missed the point of the thread.
it's 4 pages long... but i urge you to read the whole thing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Markx
otheadp; I disagree with sucide bombings but I don't know what those sucide bombers went through and targeting civilian is wrong for either palestanians or Israelis but a retarded comment by you and [b]vienna about, taliban al-qeda and sucide bombers where he and you tried to paint them as Islam is pretty pathetic. They can be called as muslims or atleast they believe they are muslims but they are not Islam. If you know English, I am sure you know what I am talking about. It is like calling Mcveigh or Hitler or Milosevic 'Christianity' and not 'Christians'. :cool:
----------
M*W: If being Muslim means "total submisison to Allah," I fail to see how Islam can be blamed for 9/11 since the terrorists were in total submission to their god, Osama bin Laden.

i think he's looked upon as a sort-of prophet maybe.... not as God

Originally posted by otheadp
i think you missed the point of the thread.
it's 4 pages long... but i urge you to read the whole thing

I think you missed it all not in a bad way but you kinda did miss the whole thing. It was started as rant and doesn't have any room for reasonable argument since you will not accept any thing reasonable, because it will not satisfy you. There is nothing wrong with that, individuals are different in their thinking and you have a right to be different. 20 years ago it wasn't even a discussion, if you know what I mean.

Originally posted by Vienna
OK, you're in no position to DO anything about it. Don't you even condemn it? As a Christian, are you supposed to be “condemning”? Is that the "Chrisitian" way of things? IS that what Jesus would do?

Originally posted by Flores
I hope you got the message loud and clear. The message is that I hate your guts because your are one of the most prejudice, unfair, self rightous, angry, idiots on this forums. It's really unpleasant to read you, given that I do enjoy reading almost everyone here. You are indeed less than average white european trash that is floating and gloating over other's accomplishments...Wake up and smell the roses, UK is the slave dirty whore of the US, so kiss your fake pride goodbye and work the streets like you're trained to do, and realize that UK (The bad European apple) is the NUMBER ONE reason that Europe is not united nor advancing.

Originally posted by Vienna
Muslims always speak their true feelings when the truth is spoken. Vienna - your point of view (on a number of threads) does sound quit bigoted to me as well. As for you statement above "Muslims always speak their true feelings when the truth is spoken." Can you elaborate - it seems to have no obvious meaning.