Where Am I Wrong About Palestine?

Since I am not a Jew (nor a Muslim), I look upon the
state of Israel as just a Jewish refugee camp in which
its occupants are strictly uninvited guests of the
people of Palestine.

It would have been nice if the nations of Germany,
Poland and Russia had been forced to contribute part of
their nation's lands to the creation of a Jewish
nation-state in Europe, as some partial compensation for
the terrible atrocities carried out within those nations
against their Jewish citizens, previous to, and during,
World War 2. But our western culture did not rise to
that fine point of justice. Instead, we gladly gave
away part of another nation's land, completely without
its consent, and against its vehemently stated objections.

I will grant that it would have been nice to create
a Jewish nation-state in any hospitable place, out of
consideration of the unfortunate history of the Jewish
people, but Palestine was not that place. It is
secondarily a most unfortunate choice because the
history of the former ancient Israel in that location
tends to lend itself to the idea, on the part of Jewish
religious zealots, that the Jews have first rights to
that location. If we start reversing history to honer
first rights, we're all in big trouble.

The Jewish state has received 800 million dollars in
reparation payments from Germany. Various of its citizens
have, collectively, received approximately 300 million
dollars in damage payments from Germany (as of 1968).
The state of Israel has received money grants from the
United States government (tax payers). And the Jewish
state was given, free, 55% of the land of Palestine.
They since have taken more.

So far, I have not been able to find, in reference
books, that anything has been given to the Palestinian
refugees except flying bullets.

I know that I am not very bright, but this situation
seems to me to be a case of total injustice. If I am
wrong, will somebody please clue me in.

Thank you.
Fairfield

 

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I didn't address the question of either of those
informal sources of money. I only refered to
sources within the context of the United Nations.

 

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I pretty much agree with everything you said and I don't back either side either but most people in the USA don't even know the history..shrugs

 

And many US citizens who are aware of the history would not agree with Fairfield’s interpretation of events.

 

I've already put up a huge post as to the history of the region and why israel has as much a right to be there as anyone.

-Check out the thread 'Battle at arafats compound'.

BTW, Jewish people were thinking of settlement in argentina,too, but decided on israel because of its proximity to their holy sites, which they have a right to be near.

-check out my other thread 'immigration policies' I completely support open borders, as opposed to ethnic cleansing as it seems fairfield is proposing. I know the history of the region and I never back anything I dont have full confidence in.

 

Mr. Elbaz:

You seem to take the transfer of one group of
people's assets to another group, without the
permission of the first group, very light heartedly.
You did not even mention it in your reply
to my thread. Instead you pictured the situation
as just some sort of social maladjustment on
the part of the Palestinians. Do you really expect
those people to say "Aw heck. We didn't really need
that land anyway"?

I'm not talking about nationalism here, or ethnic
cleansing. I'm talking just about confiscated property.
Pure and simple. And not just a little bit.
But one hell of a lot.

Fairfield

 

Fairfield,

As I said in my previous post, I specifically explained myself on Israel's right to the land. As a lazy typer I consider it a major pain in the ass to retype something that long. So if it helps you, I'll copy and paste it with a few edits. They moved in peacefully to be near their holy land, and the palestinians didnt like....>




But palestinians didnt like growing population of jews because ofcoarse, that means they begin to become the minority. Did they immigrate fairly, ofcoarse, it's their holy land too, moving there peacefully to live where their ancestors did, and saying they didnt would only be an antisemetic slur.

So what was the palestinians action when jewish people started moving in? they would throw rocks just as they do now, go and trash the communities etc..

Should people have to live with that? no. The palestinians made the choice to catalyctically force the jewish people to war. Heres how it socially worked - get out as we the palestinians want, or go to war and get annihilated as we have more power than you.....
The palestinians protested the peaceful forming of two seperate nations because they BELIEVED that they could have everything, which is still their belief, EVERYTHING.

So Israel has just as much a right on the land as they won it fairly through a war(s) provoked by the palestinians not themselves. Israel only fights to the extent that they protect their people, which they are trying to keep to a minimum right now and in the past so that peaceful palestinians are protected to, incase no one has noticed. They still offered 97% if the palestinians would once and for all lay down their childish grudges. But they still want everything, including some of OUR holy sites.

The absolute truth, as the palestinian extremists would tell you (if you werent propogandic media), is that they do not want peace, they want to destroy israel and push the jews into the sea. Arafat (same guy who led the munich games massacre) secretly wants the same, even though he knows he cannot get it.

And finally, mossad wont kill him because israel realizes that he he only helps their cause thorough his 'lack of control'.....wonder why they dont elect a leader they'll (extremist minority) will listen to.....perhaps they'd be, a little extremist?

 

Palestinians were there first, being the descendents of the Akkadians and Phoenicians. Israelis are intruders, forced upon the locals by the UN. And now the Israelis are doing to the locals what was done to them just prior to WW2.

 

quote
So Israel has just as much a right on the land as they won it fairly through a war(s)
------------------------
Gee using that argument Iraq should have valid rights to Kuwait as they won it in a war...But for some reason the USA took Iraq out and gave it back to Kuwait...But on the Isreal/Palestine issue..The United States took it from Palastine and gave it to Isreal..History of full of oxymorons using war as who owns what..In todays society I would hope we don't let a winner of a war dictate right and wrong but instead make adjustements based on what is REALLY right and wrong. There is two sides of this story and most people do ignore Palestines side for some reason. I assure you if the United States now went in and took Isreal back and gave the rule to palestine, Isreal would throw a fit just like palestine did in 1947 and 1948.

 

way to misquote justagirl,

I said they one it fairly through war(s) provoked by the palestinians, in their efforts to enthnically clense the land of jewish people, which you seem to support. They wanted to push them into the sea then and they still do, and I'll tell you another thing which may or may not come as a surprise; in their homes, palestinians arent so warm to americans either.

They immigrated in hopes of living by their holy sites, especially around harsh world antisemetism which I'm upset to say still exists. They didnt come to push the palestinians out of their homes, but the palestinians DID NOT want to live next to any jews. Thats the bottom line, and a large amount of them still dont.

Comparing israel to the crude dictatorship of iraq (which BTW only wanted kuwait for oil purposes) only proves your lack of premiss. Its like debating with someone, making a good point, and then having them reply 'ah, yer stupid'.

They moved their, lived peacefully under palestine, and was then forced into an independence war which most people thought the israelis would loose, and forced to break away or be annihilated. Same in 67 and 73, until arab nations began to realize that jewish people would not be pushed into the sea, and would stand their ground.

Israel is currently loosing something like 100mill a day in their economic value from what I've heard. Beyond that they are loosing many lives. Arafat simply allows for that to happen. He doesnt have any restrictions to one-sided palestinian media, that supports war and propogates hate of israel, even though he has control of it. People around the world, like him or not, are beggining to realize that he doesnt do all that he can to create a peaceful environment. He doesnt want one, proof through that he doesnt do all he can.

I've kept this as brief as I can, because of my limited internet time, but I'll add on to this thread tomorrow.

 

To readers of this topic:

Today's Jews are: Spanish, African, American, Japanese,
Greek, etc., etc. None of them are the native Israelis
of 20 centuries ago, and they can't all live in
their religious homeland, and near their religious
shrines, in Palestine.

Today's Christians: are: Spanish, African, American,
Japanese, Greek, etc., etc. None of them are the
native ISRAELI CHRISTIANS of 20 centuries ago,
and they can't all live in that
SAME RELIGIOUS HOMELAND AS THE JEWS, PALESTINE,
and near to their CHRISTIAN shrines.


It is ONLY a small, naive, faction of the Jewish
religious community, called the Zionists, of which Sharon
has proclaimed his allegiance to, who are causing this
shame to the Jewish religion in Palestine. They have
continuously proclaimed, since the 1500's, their desire
to recreate the Jewish nation-state in Palestine. So why
shouldn't the Palestinians have always felt nervious about
ANY Jewish settlers?

For anti-Zionist sentiment against Zionism by the
Jewish religious community check out the many hundreds
of websites published under the search phrase
"Jews against Zionism", on the Internet.

A note on the current Zionist tactics. The Zionists
are using the same tactic that the Russians use to use.
Take the land then compromise by (temporarily) giving
back half of it.

Fairfield

 

Firstly, Fairfield, I've never in my life heard of a japanese jew
:bugeye:


My point is simple. People have the right to move anywhere they want, no matter religion or race. People here have referred to Israel as a Jewish refugee camp. That just doesnt sound right. Its like saying a certain ethnic group isnt allowed in your country. The palestinians did not like jewish people in their country, and Jewish people were willing to sacrafice alot to live near their holy sites. Many christians want to live there too and they have the right, same with muslims. They didnt use force when they came, but were forced to after harsh oppression.

I support the idea that a person can live anywhere they want to. But peace is the issue. I'm not saying all, but a large group of palestinians ARE antisemetic.Its in the religion.

BTW, ALL of the Jewish people I know support the Existence of Israel. I know Jews all across North America and a few in Europe.
You think we're bird brained, Fairfield. I could say many things to that, but you and I know that its just an immature comment. I said this many times, insults in debating only show a lack of premiss.

I'm not going to argue with your so-called "observed zionist tactics". People of any nationality have a right to live there and Jews are no exeption.



And Fairfield, if your not Jewish, I'd doubt you know what we think. (Theres no such thing as a japanese Jew!!!!)

 

Firstly, Fairfield, I've never in my life heard of a japanese jew
:bugeye:


My point is simple. People have the right to move anywhere they want, no matter religion or race. People here have referred to Israel as a Jewish refugee camp. That just doesnt sound right. Its like saying a certain ethnic group isnt allowed in your country. The palestinians did not like jewish people in their country, and Jewish people were willing to sacrafice alot to live near their holy sites. Many christians want to live there too and they have the right, same with muslims. They didnt use force when they came, but were forced to after harsh oppression.

I support the idea that a person can live anywhere they want to. But peace is the issue. I'm not saying all, but a large group of palestinians ARE antisemetic.Its in the religion.

BTW, ALL of the Jewish people I know support the Existence of Israel. I know Jews all across North America and a few in Europe.
You think we're bird brained, Fairfield. I could say many things to that, but you and I know that its just an immature comment. I said this many times, insults in debating only show a lack of premiss.

I'm not going to argue with your so-called "observed zionist tactics". People of any nationality have a right to live there and Jews are no exeption.

BTW there were jews who lived their for hundreds of years, and throughout the middle east, despite prevelant antisematism.



And Fairfield, if your not Jewish, I'd doubt you know what we think. (Theres no such thing as a japanese Jew!!!!)

 

I'll assume you guys aren't referring to the tree.

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Just because you've never heard of them, it does not make their non-existence a fact. Though they are few and far between, they're out there.

Peace.

 

well they are certaintly few and far between. I've heard of Chinese ones, but Japanese?

learn something new everyday.....

 

TOKYO There are 160 Jewish family members of the
Jewish Community. of Japan. Jewish Community Center,
8-8 Hiroo, 3-Chome, Shibuya-ku, 150. Tel: 3400-2559
Fax (03) 3400-1827

.............. a visit to the Kobe and Tokyo
synagogues also finds a handful of Japanese Jews
present at services. Some of them have Jewish
spouses; others have converted to Judaism
for various reasons.

Mr. Katsutoki Sakai announced that the Japanese
and the Jews have the same ancestors.

Just a few extracts from the internet.

Fairfield

 

Palestinians are a semetic people too. Anti-jewish maybe, no doubt anti-Zionist, but certainly not anti-semetic.

 

Then why don't you guys let palestanians live there? What is so hard about that?

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captain canada,
I know a semite is someone of middle eastern origin, but the term antisemetic specifically refers to Jewish people only. I dont know why; although I have read the explanation once and cant remember...

and MarkX,
Palestinians are allowed to live in israel, any place they want to. Its embedded in the constitution of Israel that everyone has equal rights. If your going to walk into a cafe with a bomb, expect to get shot, its not discrimination.

palestinians want control of Israel. Israeli's want peace, make not mistake, but we're not willing to give up areas such as our holly sites, etc. this kind of a deal was offered giving them 97%of what they were asking and they refused. They want everything.

Can you sincerely call giving 100% to one side a compromise. I dont think so. And I doubt 97% will find its way to the table for a long time if it ever does. People should shake hands evenly, not have one side pull the other hand in.