Why do men hit women?

Why do women not only allow it to happen, but say only a man who hits them really loves them?

Why do women like abusive men such as this one in this article http://www.drjoecarver.com/loser.html ?

Is this how SOME women like to be treated?

People of both sexes have a wide range of personalities. With six billion people on this planet it's easy to fill an entire cable news channel or online magazine with people we used to call "one percenters" because one percent of six billion is still a lot of people.

You can certainly find women who tolerate or even look for abuse, but they're pretty pathetic and screwed up. They're wired wrong and their circuits mingle love with pain. They are extremely hard to help, it's not a job for amateurs or even loving family members. There are plenty of men like that too but they're not as newsworthy. Since not as many women have violent tendencies, men usually settle for emotional abuse.

The vast majority of women (and men) like to be treated decently. If you're not finding that to be the case then wherever you are get the hell out of there and find a new place to live.

People of both sexes have a wide range of personalities. With six billion people on this planet it's easy to fill an entire cable news channel or online magazine with people we used to call "one percenters" because one percent of six billion is still a lot of people.

You can certainly find women who tolerate or even look for abuse, but they're pretty pathetic and screwed up. They're wired wrong and their circuits mingle love with pain. They are extremely hard to help, it's not a job for amateurs or even loving family members. There are plenty of men like that too but they're not as newsworthy. Since not as many women have violent tendencies, men usually settle for emotional abuse.

The vast majority of women (and men) like to be treated decently. If you're not finding that to be the case then wherever you are get the hell out of there and find a new place to live.


The vast majority of people abuse each other, in a competition to see who can win.

Why do men hit women?

Why do women not only allow it to happen, but say only a man who hits them really loves them?

Why do women like abusive men such as this one in this article http://www.drjoecarver.com/loser.html ?

Is this how women like to be treated?

why do you keep making generalisations?

Women do not allow themselves to be 'hit', there are different degree's and reasons for violnece in a relationship, so you can't lump them all together.

I have a good insight into this topic but really can't post much about it, too lengthy. But some pointers for you to consider.

In some cases it will be about control and fear and the woman being so isolated she can't escape as 'escape to where, to whom, with what?' Is the violence daily or monthly, annually? Is it tolerable, is the in between stuff fantastic?

Has the man reduced the woman to a quivering unconfident shadow of a person who has been brainwashed to believe this man is the only person who truly loves her. Does he take care of her every need outside of this control.

Does the woman provoke an otherwise gentle man to violence with a vicious tongue and constant provacation, was the violence a one off.

Was the violence one sided

Women do not let this happen, it happens and the reaction is not dictated by society it is dictated by the circumstances of their relationship together.

What is life like in between the violence
Is there love
Are there children who can't be housed if you need to make a quick escape
Is there fear and control
Is there isolation
Is there depression, low self esteem, feeling of worthlessness
Is there dependancy
Has the man played the victim card by relating his violence to past childhood trauma, is the woman trying to 'help' him overcome his past and his present problems


some things to think about

Meanwhile your leading post is quite offensive to women, especially those who have been on the receiving end.

Yes, you're right of course. I apologize. Many adults are "screwed up," to use my language, because their parents did horrible things to them and "rewired them wrong," to use my metaphor.

I've known a couple of women who had ostensibly normal childhoods who nonetheless endured abusive husbands. Their excuse was that it was easier than starting a new life. I suppose I should practice what I preach and allow everyone to make their own choices about the conditions of their lives. Nonetheless one had children living in this environment and I was outraged that because of what I perceived as her rational but selfish choice, she was raising a new generation of kids who would accept violence as normal.

As with rape, I should defer the judgment of this issue to the gender who pays the dues. Nonetheless, as I pointed out, women who put up with abusive husbands often make their children witnesses, if not victims, which perpetuates the cycle. Surveys indicate that the overwhelming majority of American men who are in prison for violent crimes were physically abused by their fathers. I urge women to think about that when making their choices. It is a solidarity thing, being an elder to the next generation of both women and men, making a difficult choice to enable the people of the future to have better lives.

And an easy thing for me to pontificate about since I've never been a victim of physical violence and I've never raised children.

That said, my remark to TT stands. I hope he was being flippant and simply using today's rude language to express an occasional frustration. I hope no man really thinks he should prepare himself to routinely encounter women who think it's cool to get knocked around or abused in any way. And I hope there are not so many abused women among us that any man could conceivably have that experience.

Again, I apologize for my insensitivity.

Why do men allow themselves to be hit by women?

Why do men allow themselves to be hit by women?

'conditioning'

either way it is intolerable and unacceptable.

the moral of the story is Fraggle, until you have walked a mile in someones shoes do not judge them.

After I revealed to mutual friends the reason for our divorce, out of them all, only onecouple believed what I told them. AND that was soley becuase they themselves heard his outbursts as they once lived in a flat above ours. The others thought I was lying as they could not imagine someone so charming being so violent.

I would wonder then why you married him in the first place?

Remember, walk a mile in their shoes before you judge.

Shit, if we all did that, the world would practically be silent!!!! Surely we'd have almost nothing to talk about, would we? And the news media would go completely out of business. Hell, without all that hot air that's constantly spewed about with judgemental bullshit, there might not even be global warming!!

Baron Max

Shit, if we all did that, the world would practically be silent!!!! Surely we'd have almost nothing to talk about, would we? And the news media would go completely out of business. Hell, without all that hot air that's constantly spewed about with judgemental bullshit, there might not even be global warming!!

Baron Max

hahaha

I would wonder then why you married him in the first place?

He had a big dick and knew how to use it .....and she fell in love with it so much that she couldn't see any other part of him!

Baron Max

I would wonder then why you married him in the first place?

I was a 100% complete idiot, nothing less.

His life had been miserable, I had to make it better. Stupidity.

This is why now I say, before you love anyone you should love yourself. Only self love protects you from this type of thing.

I was a 100% complete idiot, nothing less.

His life had been miserable, I had to make it better. Stupidity.

.
No, you are just a good person. If the world had more people like that, it wouldn't be so fucked up.

This is why now I say, before you love anyone you should love yourself. Only self love protects you from this type of thing.

I've heard that from numerous people.

I was a 100% complete idiot, nothing less.

His life had been miserable, I had to make it better. Stupidity.

This is why now I say, before you love anyone you should love yourself. Only self love protects you from this type of thing.

Don't judge yourself too harshly.

You probably went to the other extreme, quite common in people who are abused; they sometimes go overboard trying to solve everyone else's problems since they had no one to help solve theirs.

If we could tell what anyone was like immediately on meeting them, life would be so much easier. Unfortunately, not all people are nice and you should not think less of yourself for having given him a chance.

No, you are just a good person. If the world had more people like that, it wouldn't be so fucked up.

Thank you

Life is a learning curve, took me a while to figure out what I learned from that experience, but really it is very simple.

I learned NOT to have the attitude Fraggle has as seen in his first post here re women who are in abusive relationships. Now if I encounter women in these situations, I will not judge, I will not preach, I will offer support and patience and understanding.

I've heard that from numerous people.

It's actually harder to achieve than you realise but achieve it you must.

Time traveller began a thread a while back about energy thieves. This is somewhat related, if you can see the connection.

Don't judge yourself too harshly.

You probably went to the other extreme, quite common in people who are abused; they sometimes go overboard trying to solve everyone else's problems since they had no one to help solve theirs.

If we could tell what anyone was like immediately on meeting them, life would be so much easier. Unfortunately, not all people are nice and you should not think less of yourself for having given him a chance.

I don't think of myself as abused, to me my life was entirely 'normal'. Normal is what is familiar afterall.

Normal is what is familiar after all.

Yes which is probably why the circle is so hard to break.

You are a very strong woman to be able to do so.

Do you know why your brother was like that?

Yes which is probably why the circle is so hard to break. You are a very strong woman to be able to do so.

Hmm, a really strong woman wouldn't have let herself get into such a fuckin' mess, would she?

Baron Max

why do you keep making generalisations?

I'm not saying all men or all women behave in this way. I'm saying some men and women do.

Women do not allow themselves to be 'hit', there are different degree's and reasons for violnece in a relationship, so you can't lump them all together.

It's always a matter of allowance, if a man hits you, he is exerting force over you, how can you hit him back?

I have a good insight into this topic but really can't post much about it, too lengthy. But some pointers for you to consider.

In some cases it will be about control and fear and the woman being so isolated she can't escape as 'escape to where, to whom, with what?' Is the violence daily or monthly, annually? Is it tolerable, is the in between stuff fantastic?

Women have just as much power as men, men only have physical advantages, but physical advantage is not the only place where power is held, at least not in todays society, but likely not in yesterdays society either.

Has the man reduced the woman to a quivering unconfident shadow of a person who has been brainwashed to believe this man is the only person who truly loves her. Does he take care of her every need outside of this control.

Why should a woman allow a man to control her self image? Why should a man allow a woman to control his self image? Now I know what you are going to say, the power of suggestion is great, and this is true, but if someone is using their power of suggestion to hurt their partner, thats mind control posing as a relationship.

Does the woman provoke an otherwise gentle man to violence with a vicious tongue and constant provacation, was the violence a one off.

No one can be provoked into violence, if they have self control and a high level of awareness, mere words will have little effect and likely will not provoke a person into violence until the threat becomes physical. Words are just moving air, and yes they are annoying, even painful, but it's not a sign of intelligence to respond to words with fist. That is a sign of weakness.
Was the violence one sided

Women do not let this happen, it happens and the reaction is not dictated by society it is dictated by the circumstances of their relationship together.

Do women such as this want to be defended? I keep hearing how women want to be independent, but when this happens, it seperates good men and women from defending each other, and it only makes it easier for abusive men and women to abuse. In a more inter-dependent society, men and women will protect each other from abusers.

What is life like in between the violence
Is there love
Are there children who can't be housed if you need to make a quick escape
Is there fear and control
Is there isolation
Is there depression, low self esteem, feeling of worthlessness
Is there dependancy

These things in specific, such as emotions, are not something we can discuss in a forum and understand, it's too personal. We can understand that low self esteem is a problem, and that abusers prey on people with low self esteem, and will make it even lower so the next abuser has an easier time controlling them.

Has the man played the victim card by relating his violence to past childhood trauma, is the woman trying to 'help' him overcome his past and his present problems

Playing card games, for what purpose? Once again I'm asking why men and women have to abuse each other in the first place.

some things to think about

Meanwhile your leading post is quite offensive to women, especially those who have been on the receiving end.

My post is likely offensive to women, but the question is, if women don't want to be abused, why do they pick abusive men? Yes it's the abusive mans fault for abusing the woman, but in the end she picked the wrong man. I encourage women to choose the right man the first time, and not to harm themselves by choosing the wrong man. I also encourage women to have a high enough self esteem to be immune to all of these abusive attacks.



I see that there is anger and hostility in your reply. All I can say is, women still have the ability to choose a man, it's not a situation where men walk around, hit a woman over the head with a club like a cave man, and claim her. Women do have the power to select a good man. Self esteem, once again, I agree that this may be the core of the issue, but how exactly is anyone besides the individual woman supposed to raise their self esteem? It's her responsibility to care about herself, and it's impossible to really teach this to anyone, as I've attempted to do so.

Also you are making this man vs woman, it's not man vs woman, it's also woman vs man. Women often deliberately choose abusive guys, they choose the toughest meanest guy they can find because they want the illusion of strength and protection, the security. The problem is, often these guys don't protect them, and it results in abuse. How can this be corrected?

'conditioning'

either way it is intolerable and unacceptable.


A more gender neutral question. Why do people hit others? Why do people allow themselves to be hit?

I was a 100% complete idiot, nothing less.

His life had been miserable, I had to make it better. Stupidity.

This is why now I say, before you love anyone you should love yourself. Only self love protects you from this type of thing.

You were not an idiot, you were a good woman, and he was an abuser.You did everything right, just with the wrong man.

Don't take my post as a personal insult to your private situation. I know there are MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of women who have been in your exact situation, I also know that MILLIONS and BILLIONS of men are in similar situations with women. I know this is a human problem and not a gender problem, but I'm a man, attempting to understand the female half.

It's more of a thought experiment than an insult, or attack if you view it like this. It's a question which had to be asked to get you to think about the situation and the scope of it, and then we can discuss the solution.

Hmm, a really strong woman wouldn't have let herself get into such a fuckin' mess, would she?

Baron Max

Its not the shit you get into, its how you deal with it that shows your strength.

Its not the shit you get into, its how you deal with it that shows your strength.

Alright, how do you deal with an abusive boyfriend?

Maybe there are strong women, but how exactly do we have women who actually think being abused shows love? I never understood that at all, but I've heard women say that only a man who is willing to beat them really loves them.

Alright, how do you deal with an abusive boyfriend?

Maybe there are strong women, but how exactly do we have women who actually think being abused shows love? I never understood that at all, but I've heard women say that only a man who is willing to beat them really loves them.

You leave an abusive boyfriend. Anything else is self destructive.

I was talking more in terms of breaking the circles of life we get sucked into, which represent models of behaviour that are "normal" for us if we grew up with them.

e.g. abusers tend to have a history of abuse in their families.

For someone to break that circle means breaking away from all instilled ideas of normality, and requires strength of conviction and purpose..

I think women who tolerate abuse have low self esteem; they crave attention (even negative attention) which they then rationalise as caring. Such women need a crutch to get through life and are attracted to aggressive men since they perceive aggression as a sign of strength.

For them every sign of aggression is proof of strength and I have heard of such incidents with men who hold positions of power and abuse women. It need not always be physical abuse either. There are plenty of men out there who verbally or emotionally abuse women and don't even recognise it.

Oh and by the way, smart women don't hate nice guys. They prefer them.

You leave an abusive boyfriend. Anything else is self destructive.
What if Psycho boyfriend applies emotional terrorism "You leave me and I'll kill myself!" (translates emotionally into, you leave me and I'll kill us emotionally)<-- quote of choice


I was talking more in terms of breaking the circles of life we get sucked into, which represent models of behaviour that are "normal" for us if we grew up with them.

e.g. abusers tend to have a history of abuse in their families.

I know, I'm not blaming the victim. So here is an option, the moment a boyfriend begins to come with a redflag emotional threat, such as threatening suicide, or threatening to hit, isn't this the time for the female to plan her response, or even respond first by dumping him? When is it too early, and how should a person deal with threats?


For someone to break that circle means breaking away from all instilled ideas of normality, and requires strength of conviction and purpose..

I think women who tolerate abuse have low self esteem; they crave attention (even negative attention) which they then rationalise as caring. Such women need a crutch to get through life and are attracted to aggressive men since they perceive aggression as a sign of strength.

For them every sign of aggression is proof of strength and I have heard of such incidents with men who hold positions of power and abuse women. It need not always be physical abuse either. There are plenty of men out there who verbally or emotionally abuse women and don't even recognise it.


So people view aggression as strength? Even when it directed at them? That is interesting. You are correct some women are programmed wrong, but this can be changed if the specific woman wants to reprogram herself. The problem is, a lot of women I have spoken to don't want to reprogram themselves, they think they deserve the abuse, and instead of defending themselves, they attack themselves just as hard as the abuser, only amplifying the abuse. This I do not understand. Another thing I don't understand is, sometimes a guy like me might try to, support them or offer assistance, and almost every time, they go back to the abuser, and turn against me and anyone else who offers assistance.

What if Psycho boyfriend applies emotional terrorism "You leave me and I'll kill myself!" <-- quote of choice

Frankly I've never been in this kind of situation, so I don't know how a woman programmed to be attracted to such guys would react. I'm assuming she would consider it a sign of undying devotion (he cannot live without her etc).

I would say good riddance.

I know, I'm not blaming the victim. So here is an option, the moment a boyfriend begins to come with a redflag emotional threat, such as threatening suicide, or threatening to hit, isn't this the time for the female to plan her response, or even respond first by dumping him? When is it too early, and how should a person deal with threats?
So people view aggression as strength? Even when it directed at them? That is interesting. You are correct some women are programmed wrong, but this can be changed if the specific woman wants to reprogram herself. The problem is, a lot of women I have spoken to don't want to reprogram themselves, they think they deserve the abuse, and instead of defending themselves, they attack themselves just as hard as the abuser, only amplifying the abuse. This I do not understand.


I think in such cases where women come from a history of abuse, they tend not to recognise these flags. For them any kind of aggression or emotional blackmail may be "normal" behaviour and they may actually fall into such relationships because the patterns are familiar to them. They may even be incapable of dealing with other patterns of non-abusive behaviour since they have no experience of them.

People tend to underestimate the influence of family, school and friends in moulding an individuals ability to deal with the vicissitudes of life. Although there are innate strengths but the facility to recognise body language and see through BS depends to a great deal on the kind of upbringing you have had. Sheltered women can be as vulnerable, having no notion of dealing with unknown behaviour patterns and falling into unhealthy relationships with men who appear macho and strong. Such women may not even have the emotional werewithal to take on a confrontation and may submit simply because they hope it will get better or go away if they do.

I personally think any kind of physical abuse is too much.

I know there are couples who are matched and who like to clear the air with a good free-for-all, but personally, its not my cup of tea.

Frankly I've never been in this kind of situation, so I don't know how a woman programmed to be attracted to such guys would react. I'm assuming she would consider it a sign of undying devotion (he cannot live without her etc).

I would say good riddance.



I think in such cases where women come from a history of abuse, they tend not to recognise these flags. For them any kind of aggression or emotional blackmail may be "normal" behaviour and they may actually fall into such relationships because the patterns are familiar to them. They may even be incapable of dealing with other patterns of non-abusive behaviour since they have no experience of them.

People tend to underestimate the influence of family, school and friends in moulding an individuals ability to deal with the vicissitudes of life. Although there are innate strengths but the facility to recognise body language and see through BS depends to a great deal on the kind of upbringing you have had. Sheltered women can be as vulnerable, having no notion of dealing with unknown behaviour patterns and falling into unhealthy relationships with men who appear macho and strong. Such women may not even have the emotional werewithal to take on a confrontation and may submit simply because they hope it will get better or go away if they do.

I personally think any kind of physical abuse is too much.

I know there are couples who are matched and who like to clear the air with a good free-for-all, but personally, its not my cup of tea.

Your arguement makes sense. What can I do to help or support women such as this?

Your arguement makes sense. What can I do to help or support women such as this?

Like I said I have no experience with this and I don't know what a woman like this would consider as help. You may find such women reluctant to discuss their abuse, they may resent advice and may dislike any intervention as it might mean a separation from the person who validates their existence.

I am pretty sure that any advice on what is the right thing to do would fall on deaf ears. If it were a friend of mine in such a situation, I would keep in touch regularly and visit often listening to what she is saying (and not saying). I would also try to avoid giving any opinion or advice (very difficult, I know), so that she would not feel uncomfortable sharing her feelings and thoughts. I would also try to help her become financially independent if she is not, since independence is good for self esteem and also helps build a network separate from the abuser. I don't know how far this would help but at least I'd be able to see, on a regular basis that she was alright and could be available to her if she was not or if she needed to get away.


I believe there are social support groups available for battered women, especially since many women prefer not to go to the authorities until there have been several incidents of battery ( I believe the average is 30). You might want to try and contact such a place if you feel a friend is in danger and needs help. If you know for certain that there is abuse, I would go to the authorities and lodge a complaint. I don't know what the legal situation is in this country if the woman does not support the complaint, though. I suggest you contact a social group familiar with the procedures for the best way to deal with this.

Yes which is probably why the circle is so hard to break.

You are a very strong woman to be able to do so.

Do you know why your brother was like that?

sibling rivalry, jealousy and insecurity also inherited tendancies no doubt. He has served time for violence to men, he has to my knowledge never hit another female. As a child, I was not 'female', I was his rival. There was only 13 months age gap.

Also I was NOT in a 'cycle'

I went into one relationship that involved a low level of violence and quarterly not daily, and that was in mid twenties, I had other non violent relationships before that and after that.

The second marriage involved one 'incidence' and that was after 8 yrs, it was not a violent relationship.

Like I said I have no experience with this and I don't know what a woman like this would consider as help. You may find such women reluctant to discuss their abuse, they may resent advice and may dislike any intervention as it might mean a separation from the person who validates their existence.

I am pretty sure that any advice on what is the right thing to do would fall on deaf ears. If it were a friend of mine in such a situation, I would keep in touch regularly and visit often listening to what she is saying (and not saying). I would also try to avoid giving any opinion or advice (very difficult, I know), so that she would not feel uncomfortable sharing her feelings and thoughts. I would also try to help her become financially independent if she is not, since independence is good for self esteem and also helps build a network separate from the abuser. I don't know how far this would help but at least I'd be able to see, on a regular basis that she was alright and could be available to her if she was not or if she needed to get away.


I believe there are social support groups available for battered women, especially since many women prefer not to go to the authorities until there have been several incidents of battery ( I believe the average is 30). You might want to try and contact such a place if you feel a friend is in danger and needs help. If you know for certain that there is abuse, I would go to the authorities and lodge a complaint. I don't know what the legal situation is in this country if the woman does not support the complaint, though. I suggest you contact a social group familiar with the procedures for the best way to deal with this.


I like your response to my question, you seem like a good person and good friend. A lot of what you said is actually true and could work, so maybe I could learn something.

ToR:

Originally Posted by mountainhare
Why do men allow themselves to be hit by women? ”

'conditioning'

either way it is intolerable and unacceptable.

I'm actually surprised (but pleased) that you said that!

There is a lot of focus on violence against women, but I personally know several relationships where the woman hits the man when she loses her temper. You might find this very hard to believe, but I know one girl who hits and kicks her bf when he doesn't want to have sex!

The problem is that a man hitting a woman is ALWAYS frowned upon, but a woman hitting a man is just a normal occurance. Yes, you still get men who abuse women, but they must do so in private. They sure as hell don't brag about it in this day and age, because being a woman beater has as much negative stigma as a child molesteror. If the law doesn't ruin them, the public will.

Personally, I feel that one should never resort from words to force. It doesn't matter if the other person is male or female, young or old, strong or weak. Force is only justified when used in self-defense.

ToR:

I'm actually surprised (but pleased) that you said that!

There is a lot of focus on violence against women, but I personally know several relationships where the woman hits the man when she loses her temper. You might find this very hard to believe, but I know one girl who hits and kicks her bf when he doesn't want to have sex!

The problem is that a man hitting a woman is ALWAYS frowned upon, but a woman hitting a man is just a normal occurance. Yes, you still get men who abuse women, but they must do so in private. They sure as hell don't brag about it in this day and age, because being a woman beater has as much negative stigma as a child molesteror. If the law doesn't ruin them, the public will.

Personally, I feel that one should never resort from words to force. It doesn't matter if the other person is male or female, young or old, strong or weak. Force is only justified when used in self-defense.


No it's not normal for a woman to hit a man, I don't know what kinda man you are talking about here. If a woman hits you, you dump her quick. No physical aggression from a partner should be tolerated, unless it's like, part of foreplay.

Many children are smacked by their parents as kids by way of discipline. It is those parents who begin this cycle. Some one does something you don't like, hit them. Someone not doing as they are told , hit them. Parents teach their children to be aggressive to others. Children are more vulnerable than anyone, what message goes out if we think it's ok to smack them, why not an adult.

So you were smacked as a kid but you don't hit women, do you smack your own kids though?

Many children are smacked by their parents as kids by way of discipline. It is those parents who begin this cycle. Some one does something you don't like, hit them. Someone not doing as they are told , hit them. Parents teach their children to be aggressive to others. Children are more vulnerable than anyone, what message goes out if we think it's ok to smack them, why not an adult.

So you were smacked as a kid but you don't hit women, do you smack your own kids though?

I don't think thats the problem. The old way of raising kids is spanking, when I was growing up it was still going on, it was not taboo like now. It's not the same as an adult hitting an adult. Children don't know any better, but a woman is an adult, and a man is an adult.

sibling rivalry, jealousy and insecurity also inherited tendancies no doubt. He has served time for violence to men, he has to my knowledge never hit another female. As a child, I was not 'female', I was his rival. There was only 13 months age gap.

Also I was NOT in a 'cycle'

I went into one relationship that involved a low level of violence and quarterly not daily, and that was in mid twenties, I had other non violent relationships before that and after that.

The second marriage involved one 'incidence' and that was after 8 yrs, it was not a violent relationship.

Do you have any idea why you did not get into a circle?

What kept you out?

Do you have any idea why you did not get into a circle?

What kept you out?

why would I be in a circle?


what you think about cycles and circles is wrong, your entire understanding of the dynamics of these ralationships is wrong.

My ex was never short of female attention. All his admirers did not share my background. Thus there was no pattern with regard to his females so why should there be a pattern with my males.

Women don't seek out violent men, but they (not me) may be attracted to powerful men, confident men, charismatic men. These men have a side effect. Thus the woman may appear to be in a cycle of abuse seeking but that is just crap, she just likes the positive traits that these men have, sadly not realising that these traits are also indicative of other negative qualities.
Women who get involved with men like that will not give up their lives of comfort and luxury and privilage for the few moments in a yr when she gets a 'slap' for nagging.

I avoided violence in men like the plague because of my childhood, I certainly would never seek it out. No woman seeks it out. I hate hearing all this circle cycle stuff it's just not helpful. All the time placing the blame on the female rather than recognising a simple reality and that is that probably one in 4 men will at some point hit a woman in a relationship. Thus if you have more than 4 relationships, in one you'll get hit. Law of averages.

I don't think thats the problem. The old way of raising kids is spanking, when I was growing up it was still going on, it was not taboo like now. It's not the same as an adult hitting an adult. Children don't know any better, but a woman is an adult, and a man is an adult.

The old way of raising kids with spanking is why so many adult men 'spank' their wives. What is the matter, you don't like that reality? You can't see how teaching kids to hit people when they do something you don't like may follow into adulthood?

why would I be in a circle?


what you think about cycles and circles is wrong, your entire understanding of the dynamics of these ralationships is wrong.

My ex was never short of female attention. All his admirers did not share my background. Thus there was no pattern with regard to his females so why should there be a pattern with my males.

Women don't seek out violent men, but they (not me) may be attracted to powerful men, confident men, charismatic men. These men have a side effect. Thus the woman may appear to be in a cycle of abuse seeking but that is just crap, she just likes the positive traits that these men have, sadly not realising that these traits are also indicative of other negative qualities.
Women who get involved with men like that will not give up their lives of comfort and luxury and privilage for the few moments in a yr when she gets a 'slap' for nagging.

I avoided violence in men like the plague because of my childhood, I certainly would never seek it out. No woman seeks it out. I hate hearing all this circle cycle stuff it's just not helpful. All the time placing the blame on the female rather than recognising a simple reality and that is that probably one in 4 men will at some point hit a woman in a relationship. Thus if you have more than 4 relationships, in one you'll get hit. Law of averages.

You may be right. Like I said I have no experience of such. And most of what I said is based on current thinking in psychology.

ToR:

This is what current thinking says:
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/facts/specific/fs_domestic_violence.html


What are the dynamics of an abusive relationship?

Research focusing on the dynamics of abusive relationships has resulted in several ways of understanding the interactions between the batterer and the victim. The first conceptualization is that of the Cycle of Violence,5 consisting of three stages: the tension building stage (tension in the relationship gradually increases over time); the acute battering stage (tension erupts, resulting in threats or use of violence and abuse); and the honeymoon stage (the batterer may be apologetic and remorseful and promise not to be abusive again). The cycle continues throughout the relationship, with the honeymoon stage becoming shorter and the episodes of battering becoming more frequent or more severe. The honeymoon stage reinforces the victim's hope that the batterer will change and contributes to the victim staying in the relationship.

The concept of Traumatic Bonding6 has also been developed to explain the dynamics of domestic violence relationships. Essentially, strong emotional connections develop between the victim and the perpetrator during the abusive relationship. These emotional ties develop due to the imbalance of power between the batterer and the victim and because the treatment is intermittently good and bad.º In terms of the power imbalance, as the abuser gains more power, the abused individual feels worse about him- or herself, is less able to protect him- or herself, and is less competent.º The abused person therefore becomes increasingly dependent on the abuser.º The second key factor in traumatic bonding is the intermittent and unpredictable abuse.º While this may sound counterintuitive, the abuse is offset by an increase in positive behaviors such as attention, gifts, and promises. The abused individual also feels relief that the abuse has ended.º Thus, there is intermittent reinforcement for the behavior, which is difficult to extinguish and serves instead to strengthen the bond between the abuser and the individual being abused.

Finally, abusive relationship dynamics can also be understood through the concepts of Approach and Avoidance.7 The mix of pros (love and economic support) and cons (fear and humiliation) present in the battering relationship leads to ambivalence on the part of the victim. The victim is likely to want to approach the positives in the relationship but avoid the abuse. This struggle between wanting to keep the relationship and wanting to remain safe makes it difficult to decide whether to leave or stay in the relationship. On average, women leave and return to an abusive relationship five times before permanently leaving the relationship.

You may be right. Like I said I have no experience of such. And most of what I said is based on current thinking in psychology.

That it is, I am very familiar with it. Non the less wrong.

If the leaders in this field of research are .........men ;) then.................you have a 'group' (men) who are not going to acknowledge that they as a gender are to blame. Much easier to blame the woman.

Men are are not known for their verbal skills, thus when a woman wages war with her tongue, he may not wish to engage her OR he may be an unworthy adversary. I know when my ex turned violent it was because he felt all verbal avenues of reason had been exhausted and he had no option but to control my behaviour with agression. It was acts of frustration, a final attempt to get his desired end result. That never worked either. I am (and have always been) unphased by any form of bullying. I NEVER give in.

Why do countries go to war?
Why don't we just 'talk about' it over a cup of tea?

Because the leaders that take us to war are 'men'.

Not all men will resort to violence against a woman to win a 'battle' but it is massively more common that we care to imagine.

My bf of one yr is 100% adorable, super nice and I adore him. The best thing since sliced bread and not an agressive bone in his body. Perfect for me.

There is no cycle.

ToR:

This is what current thinking says:
http://www.ncptsd.va.gov/facts/specific/fs_domestic_violence.html

I agree with this entirely. What is important to acknowledge though that this can happen with a man who is (until the violence begins which may not be for a yr or two) seemingly 'perfect'. Hence the difficulty for the female in seeing and understanding what is happenning, it happens so slowly, so gradually and afterall she has no previous experience. The women drawn into this relationship are NOT 'looking for that kind of abusive attention'.

NOTE:

society is also responsible for keeping women in these relationships too, being 'frowned upon' for not MAKING you marriage work.

Yes its interesting how the same men who claim to have higher IQs and greater strength absolve themselves of all responsibilities when it comes to marriage and children :)

..., thus when a woman wages war with her tongue, ...

Hmm, how interesting you put it that way. "...wages war..."? Perhaps a woman would be wise not to let her mouth start major conflict that her rowboat ass can't finish.

Diplomacy sounds nice and comfy, but the reality is diplomacy ain't never solved any major conflicts in the history of mankind.

If you don't want a punch in the mouth, then don't be opening it and letting things out of it so much. If you start something, better be prepared to finish it or take the consequences for you foolishness.

Baron Max

Yes its interesting how the same men who claim to have higher IQs and greater strength absolve themselves of all responsibilities when it comes to marriage and children :)

Do you have anything to support that assertion? Or did it just sound good, so you typed it out?

Baron Max

Do you have anything to support that assertion? Or did it just sound good, so you typed it out?

Baron Max

I do believe the US has invented a whole new term called "deadbeat dads" for this phenomenon.

Non-custodial parents who avoid their child support obligations are often termed dead-beat parents. The typical non-custodial parent is the father, thus the common reference to "deadbeat dads". The US Department of Health and Human Services estimates that 68% of child support cases had arrears owed in 2003 (a figure up from 53% in 1999).


And have "deadbeat dad laws" as well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Amendment

And sometimes extreme measures are taken:

In 2000, the state of Tennessee revoked[2] the driver’s licenses of 1,372 people who collectively owed more than $13 million in child support.

If you don't want a punch in the mouth, then don't be opening it and letting things out of it so much. If you start something, better be prepared to finish it or take the consequences for you foolishness.

Baron Max

Do you punch women in the mouth Baron?

Do you punch women in the mouth Baron?

No! But it's probably 'cause I'm smart enough or experienced enough to have nothing to do with women!!!!! They cause nothing but problems for men, and I can see no value in women ..including sex or blowjobs!

And, just so you know, I think that very sentiment also extends to women's point of view, too. Women don't need men, and men cause nothing but problems in a woman's life.

Baron Max

Sour grapes.

Misogynist is the word for that.

Lucky for women that you avoid them, I'd say.

The old way of raising kids with spanking is why so many adult men 'spank' their wives. What is the matter, you don't like that reality? You can't see how teaching kids to hit people when they do something you don't like may follow into adulthood?

No, that beating on wives stuff runs in families. No one in my family has ever hit a woman, because my family was matriarch, with the lead woman in control of the household. Even so, personally, I've never hit a woman in my life.

People were not spanked to teach kids to hit people, it was to teach them right from wrong before they develop a sense of morality for themselves. Children can be ignorant at times and it's better to spank them than to let them die because they did something totally stupid.

Children are fearless, spanking was a way to teach fear, and it did work. I did not fear dying, but I feared being spanked, and it worked long enough to keep me alive. It's only abusive if the kid is being spanked all the time, but I was generally ethical and never had to be spanked much, but when I did I'm glad it happened because I was being stupid, like playing with the electric sockets in the walls, or messing around with stuff I shouldnt be messing with, or playing in the windows. There are some things that you cannot explain to a kid at such a young age other than to say "NO" and enforce it with fear.

I'm not endorsing spanking, because it's the old way, but the old way worked better than the new way. Thats why we have more bad kids today than ever, because they weren;t spanked. Not only are kids not spanked anymore, but children arent as religious as they once was either, so it's a combination of no faith in God, and no spanking, it makes it very very difficult to set limits and to teach morality.

All I can say is, being spanked as a child and beating on your wife is not connected. I was spanked a few times by my mother, and I never once hit her, and it's not because I was spanked or wasnt spanked, it's a mixture of genetics and programming. As a kid there were times where, if I made my mother cry, I'd start crying myself, it was never going to be possible for me to hit her.

Some men do respect women, because they learn to respect their mothers, and the women in their immediate family first, because thats how you learn to treat a woman properly, so men usually learn based on this. Then later on the have female friends, and maybe some different types of women in their life and they learn not to physically hit a woman, but to hit back metaphysically against an abusive woman. So no, going physical is what people do when they lack the intelligence to find metaphysical solutions.

I don't think kids are taught to hit. You cannot teach aggression in that way because it's partially genetic and partially programmed. Personally, I learned aggression by going to school, so maybe it would have been best for me if I had never entered public school, because then I would not have been attacked by bullies and would not have learned to fight fire with fire, on the other hand not learning that only makes you more of a target.

No! But it's probably 'cause I'm smart enough or experienced enough to have nothing to do with women!!!!! They cause nothing but problems for men, and I can see no value in women ..including sex or blowjobs!

And, just so you know, I think that very sentiment also extends to women's point of view, too. Women don't need men, and men cause nothing but problems in a woman's life.

Baron Max


Are you serious?

I agree with this entirely. What is important to acknowledge though that this can happen with a man who is (until the violence begins which may not be for a yr or two) seemingly 'perfect'. Hence the difficulty for the female in seeing and understanding what is happenning, it happens so slowly, so gradually and afterall she has no previous experience. The women drawn into this relationship are NOT 'looking for that kind of abusive attention'.

NOTE:

society is also responsible for keeping women in these relationships too, being 'frowned upon' for not MAKING you marriage work.


No man is perfect, there are ways to see past the illusion that men and women put up, but thats a private conversation because whatever those ways are, should be kept secret. All I can say is, we all have our ways.

Children are fearless, spanking was a way to teach fear, and it did work. I did not fear dying, but I feared being spanked, and it worked long enough to keep me alive. It's only abusive if the kid is being spanked all the time, but I was generally ethical and never had to be spanked much, but when I did I'm glad it happened because I was being stupid, like playing with the electric sockets in the walls, or messing around with stuff I shouldnt be messing with, or playing in the windows. There are some things that you cannot explain to a kid at such a young age other than to say "NO" and enforce it with fear.

.


None of the above is correct, its pure laziness to install fear into your child to get them to be 'safe'. A fearful child will be a target for bullies all their life. I never want my kids to fear me. They are very well behaved, not by accident but my my methods of teaching them and ignoring negative attention grabbing behaviours, I don't reinforce bad behaviour, I only reinforce good behaviour. Being consistant works. All kids grow out of their interest in scokets quite quickly, no need to beat the shit out of them. If you feared spanking TT then you were spanked way too hard.

What is better being good because you decide yourself this is how you want to behave or being good becuase when 'watched' you may get a spanking, meaning out of sight you'll do whatever you want to. My kids behave because they have been 'conditoned' to behave a certain way towards certain things.

My 4 yr old loves fireman sam and knows more about the hazzards of electricity that I do! Until a child is old enough to be taught about electricty dangers, put covers on your sockets, thus ending the problem, or just wait a short while as they get bored very quickly with them and swiftly move on. No need for 'electric fences' to keep the kids off the bed!

If your atttiudes don't change I guarrantee as a result of your abusive child hood (yes abusive, if you feared spanking it was abuse) YOU will beat your kids too. Neglecting all other methods, and choosing violence instead, and they will do the same and so on so forth.

None of the above is correct, its pure laziness to install fear into your child to get them to be 'safe'. A fearful child will be a target for bullies all their life.

How can that possibly be true? If it were true, then the USA would have been overrun with bullys and fearful kids for hundreds of years!!

But, ahh, that's not the case, is it? Nope, it ain't. So what does that say about your comment above?

Baron Max

TT the following occurred to me:

You ask why women 'defend' their beatings etc

I would say this in reply

The same reason you defend your beatings as a child by your parents.

No doubt some of the same psychology applies.

How can that possibly be true? If it were true, then the USA would have been overrun with bullys and fearful kids for hundreds of years!!

But, ahh, that's not the case, is it? Nope, it ain't. So what does that say about your comment above?

Baron Max

lol, that was a joke right?

the USA is overun by bullies and fearful kids, especially school kids who every week see their peers getting shot at school.

Many children are smacked by their parents as kids by way of discipline. It is those parents who begin this cycle. Some one does something you don't like, hit them. Someone not doing as they are told , hit them. Parents teach their children to be aggressive to others. Children are more vulnerable than anyone, what message goes out if we think it's ok to smack them, why not an adult.

So you were smacked as a kid but you don't hit women, do you smack your own kids though?

I don't have kids, but if I did it's not like I'd ever smack them. First, spanking are reserved for emergencies, as in when you have to teach life and death lessons, when you know if you don't spank them they'll jump out the window, set the house on fire, or something else stupid that kids do. It's never in my opinion to be done by the father, the mother should do it, and only as a last resort.

I'm not endorsing physical discipline, because it's rogue and barbarian like, on the other hand, you assume all children are going to be born knowing right from wrong, or with common sense and that's not true. I think religion does more harm to children than spanking, but I don't see anyone making that case.

I'm not naturally violent, I'm not going to ever hit a person unless I have no other option, and I'd certainly never hit a child. That does not mean physical restraint is out of the question, and it does not mean that spanking is wrong, it just means I'm not the one who would do it.

It's not a matter that children learn aggression, children are born with a certain amount of natural aggression, in specific males are born with this, and it's not spanking which teaches it, spanking actually teaches most males to control their aggression. Spanking works, thats why people do it, thats why people did it, the anti-spanking people never offered an alternative that works for all personality types and all kinds of people. Some kids are naturally aggressive and only respect force, fear, pain, reward.

Lets say you have a kid, and this kid is a little monster, setting fires, torturing animals, beating up smaller children, and you KNOW if you don't correct the kid immediately, that the kid will become the ultimate criminal. Some parents introduce religion, some parents introduce spanking, but ultimately it's the parents responsibility to control their kid, even if that kid is a little monster, because society will be a lot harsher and will likely kill them or put them in prison.

You understand right? I understand how you think, and yeah I'm not endorsing spankings, but for some kids it's the only way to teach discipline, and it's kept many many people out of prison as adults and away from crime, because when they get old enough to understand why they were spanked, they learn exactly why their parents did it, usually for their own good.

TT the following occurred to me:

You ask why women 'defend' their beatings etc

I would say this in reply

The same reason you defend your beatings as a child by your parents.

No doubt some of the same psychology applies.


It's totally different. A child is the legal responsibility of the parent. The parent owns the child until the child is old enough and aware enough to own themselves.

A fully grown adult woman, owns herself, and no one has the right to hit her. There is a huge difference. A child can be spanked when they for example, become violent and start torturing an animal, and LEARN something from this, and then later on when they are an adult, they will have learned compassion for animals. Yeah it might be in a brutal way, but it's better in some cases to spank the kid to teach this, than to have the kid become a teenager and go on columbine like rampages, and start killing people. How exactly do you teach a kid to respect life if the kid does not naturally?

This is why kids are spanked. An adult woman on the other hand, it's not anyones job to treat her like a child, she should know right from wrong, if she does not, you can reason with her, you can talk to her, you cannot talk to a child because the child wont be able to communicate. Spanking does not teach violence, or teach men or women to hit, spanking can teach the exact opposite, it depends on who spanks, and when.

A child could be a bully, get spanked by their parents when they get caught, and stop. Another kid could be a bully, get suspended from school, and not get spanked, and simply become a better bully.

lol, that was a joke right?

the USA is overun by bullies and fearful kids, especially school kids who every week see their peers getting shot at school.

Children have been seeing their peers get shot for decades in this country. Around the world children have watched their parents die of diseases that are easily cureable, starvation, thirst, and brutal violence. You cannot hide the real world from kids forever.

TT, you sem to be suggesting that if a child is not spanked they will become an animal torturing, house burning, muderer. This is not the case, rather the opposite in fact.

How do you stop a child torturing animals, this is very simple. You expose them to animals from an early age and teach them how to handle them and teach them to respect and value all living things. Children are VERY susceptible to brain washing (you can call it conditioning ;) ) at a very young age and will take in everything you teach them.

I know this as I have two myself. We have a pet cat who takes no nonsense and I take them to the local farm no less than 3 times a week, where they pet other animals, (guinea pigs, rabbits, goats, horses, cows, sheep etc) and they get to groom a pony and bottle feed lambs.Of course there is lots of play equipt too, but they love the animals as they have been exposed to them and taught how to be responsible around them. Bearing in mind my kids are only 2 and 4yrs old this shows it is not impossible as long as you start early enough.

If I see my kids go near to stamping on a snail, they are 'told off' and then a discussion re living things follows, and closer inspection of living snails so they quickly learn to appreciate them 'alive'.

You teach kids about fire the same way, education. Show them it, teach them how it is caused, what damage it can do, how to behave around it.

You don't teach a kid anything by spanking as the only thing it will remember after the spanking is being spanked. That is a fact.

I also use sweety and pudding deprivation to reduce other unsafe/anti social behaviours, which is hugely successful. The behaviour is very quickly eliminated and good behaviour becomes habit forming.

Women are no stronger than men or children when it comes to violence that is issued apparrantly with due cause over a period of time.

Why do men tolerate violence from a woman?..............same reason a woman does from a man.

It is not helpful to continue regarding women as some how different in their response to violence. You are putting all the 'blame' onto the woman when you do this even though unintentional.

Theoryofrelativity;1170799]TT, you sem to be suggesting that if a child is not spanked they will become an animal torturing, house burning, muderer. This is not the case, rather the opposite in fact.


No, I'm saying, if a child already is an animal torturing house burning little monster, what are you going to do to change this kid? What if the kid cannot feel empathy for animals?

How do you stop a child torturing animals, this is very simple. You expose them to animals from an early age and teach them how to handle them and teach them to respect and value all living things. Children are VERY susceptible to brain washing (you can call it conditioning ;) ) at a very young age and will take in everything you teach them.

You cannot teach this with words though. You cannot teach empathy with words, it's impossible to. You can teach it in only two ways, one way requires them to be born with the innate ability to feel it, and you have to connect with them as a parent, they'll eventually feel it towards you, and then you'll be able to verbalize what that is, and that kittens feel it towards their mothers too. This is not something which can be taught with just words though.

The other way, if they just hate animals from the start, and just, have problems connecting even with you, and yes some kids are just born distant from everyone else, these kids you cannot teach with words, as they won't have the natural connection, so how will you teach them empathy towards animals? One way which seems to have worked in the past, when they hurt an animal, you spank them, and they associate pain towards an animal with pain towards themself. Once again, it's not a matter of words, it's still a matter of pain, or empathy, but it results in the same behavior modification.


I know this as I have two myself. We have a pet cat who takes no nonsense and I take them to the local farm no less than 3 times a week, where they pet other animals, (guinea pigs, rabbits, goats, horses, cows, sheep etc) and they get to groom a pony and bottle feed lambs.Of course there is lots of play equipt too, but they love the animals as they have been exposed to them and taught how to be responsible around them. Bearing in mind my kids are only 2 and 4yrs old this shows it is not impossible as long as you start early enough.

Some kids are naturally like that with animals. Some kids torture animals and go into sadist mode. If you have a sadist for a son or daughter, you are not going to be able to be able to explain emotions with words, so how do you show them it's not okay to torture an animal to death? A natural sadist WILL torture the animal to death.


If I see my kids go near to stamping on a snail, they are 'told off' and then a discussion re living things follows, and closer inspection of living snails so they quickly learn to appreciate them 'alive'.


Yes but you have not proved this was due to your verbal corrections, or the fact that they were born with intuition, or just a deep enough connection to you that they can feel what you say on their own. I think they just connect with you, I don't think every kid is like that as some kids hate small animals period, and when they get big enough they turn on their parents.


You teach kids about fire the same way, education. Show them it, teach them how it is caused, what damage it can do, how to behave around it.

Sometimes the best way to teach a kid about fire, is pain, because it's better for them to feel the pain of a spanking, than to be burned in a fire and feel that pain, sometimes your only option as a parent is to choose which pain your child has to feel, because some children are hardheaded and nothing you say will verbalize it in a way which they'll understand. Sometimes a kid will only understand the hard way, and that means pain.


You don't teach a kid anything by spanking as the only thing it will remember after the spanking is being spanked. That is a fact.

That is not a fact, as there are millions if not billions who disagree with you here. Spanking is not for everyone. I was not spanked a lot, I can count all the times on both hands,and I remember each time because it was so rare. But when I really got spanked, even if I couldnt understand fully at the time what I was doing wrong, now I know jumping around the window could have cost me my life and I'm glad I was spanked. Better to be spanked than to fall out of the window like those kids who werent spanked.


I also use sweety and pudding deprivation to reduce other unsafe/anti social behaviours, which is hugely successful. The behaviour is very quickly eliminated and good behaviour becomes habit forming.

That can work when they are young, but when kids get older they get smart. I was too brilliant as a kid to fall for any of that, in fact as a kid, I was busy convincing my mother to buy me video game systems all the time. If she decided not to buy them, I'd have just figured out other ways to get the money, which she did not want, so she spent her money to keep me out of trouble and in the house, and it worked.


Women are no stronger than men or children when it comes to violence that is issued apparrantly with due cause over a period of time.

Why do men tolerate violence from a woman?..............same reason a woman does from a man.

It is not helpful to continue regarding women as some how different in their response to violence. You are putting all the 'blame' onto the woman when you do this even though unintentional.


I don't think censorship of violence prevents violence, because I think a childs personality is set early on. You can only model or mold the personality into something acceptable for the family to deal with, but you cannot change a childs innate nature. If a child is going to be violent, the child will be violent no matter how good of a parent you are. If a child is going to be a sadist or a masochist, the child is going to be that no matter how much you try to teach it otherwise. Spanking only works for a little while, until the child is old enough to understand right from wrong, but if the child is spanked and never develops a sense of right and wrong, then the spanking coudl backfire like you said, so once again spanking works on some children and not others because some children are easier to raise than others.

I was easy to raise in that I never was violent, I was not born to be a violent person. I did not learn violence from being spanked. I learned violence when I went to school and got jumped and had a knife pulled on me, I learned that violence sometimes IS the only answer. Is this a lesson a child should learn? At some point yes every child should learn it, but it's not the same thing to learn violence as the role of bully, as it is to learn violence as the role of bullied. If you aren't naturally violent, you'll always hate violence, but if you are bullied, you'll develop a self defense instinct that will make you defend yourself without even thinking about it as a response to fear.It becomes like a reflect, you start shaking, you get nervous, and there you are, fighting. This means that you can be conditioned to fight, and this is not the same as bullying.

In my opinion, at some point you are going to have to teach your children to fight, the world is filled with bullies, and the world has a deficiency of compassion for those who are weak. So while I'm not saying to endorse violence( I don't endorse or like violence), it's a part of life, it's unavoidable, and at some point your children will face it. It's much better for parents to teach kids this lesson than for bullies to do it, but it's going to happen, it might happen as soon as they start school, so be prepared for it and teach them self defense, and if you can't, take them to a martial arts instructor.

Martial arts helped me, as it builds confidence in fighting ability.It also teaches the spirituality behind self defense, and this is the most important lesson of all, violence is to only be used to prevent violence, never to initiate it.

No, I'm saying, if a child already is an animal torturing house burning little monster, what are you going to do to change this kid? What if the kid cannot feel empathy for animals?



If you come across a damaged child (damaged by child beatings and thus taken into care for won protection) who damages animals as way of returning their own abuse, you can teach them empathy the same way as i already detailed.



You cannot teach this with words though. You cannot teach empathy with words, it's impossible to. You can teach it in only two ways, one way requires them to be born with the innate ability to feel it, and you have to connect with them as a parent, they'll eventually feel it towards you, and then you'll be able to verbalize what that is, and that kittens feel it towards their mothers too. This is not something which can be taught with just words though.


You can teach empathy by setting an example and by habit forming behaviours, and by exposure. Your blatant denial it is possible is simply wrong. Some children are more empathetic naturally than others, females more than men for example, but it can be taught. Anything can be taught.

Nothing is taught with violence except more violence. This is quite widely accepted.


If I had a kid with a record of abuse to animals I would take him to work with me in a zoo or animal shelter looking after absued animals. He would learn empathy this way and respect for animals eventually.



Yes but you have not proved this was due to your verbal corrections, or the fact that they were born with intuition, or just a deep enough connection to you that they can feel what you say on their own. I think they just connect with you, I don't think every kid is like that as some kids hate small animals period, and when they get big enough they turn on their parents.

it.

Wrong, I HAD to teach my kids how to be around animals. All kids naturally pull poke and whatever with fluffy furry thing when in first contact if toddler /baby etc. I taught mine how to stroke, how NOT to hit/poke /pull tails etc. I saw my daughter stomp on a snail. I taught her not to again, the way I told you earlier and with stern words. And again with exposure to animals regularly.



Sometimes the best way to teach a kid about fire, is pain, because it's better for them to feel the pain of a spanking, than to be burned in a fire and feel that pain, sometimes your only option as a parent is to choose which pain your child has to feel, because some children are hardheaded and nothing you say will verbalize it in a way which they'll understand. Sometimes a kid will only understand the hard way, and that means pain.

it.

wrong, you teach your kids about fire by the emthods I explained and in my case, 'fireman Sam video's'.

We are not going to agree on this. You seem to think pain is a teaching tool, no doubt because you rec'd a degree of it as a child. You are defending your parents the same way an abused female defends her husband. You don't have to reject your parents for doing this to you, merely accept they weren't perfect. None of us are. They did what their parents did and theirs before them. Now we are more enlightened, there are better ways.

Actually my parents were exceptional. Both my parents have college degrees, although I was not raised by both parents, I was raised by women. As much as you want to say pain is not a teaching tool, sadly it is, as most people arent easily swayed by words when young.

The first time a person learns this is when they go to school and a bully keeps hitting them for no reason, now you know the rules, if you just calmly explain to them that these hits hurt you and to stop, they'll keep doing it. The only way to really teach them the lesson they need to be taught, is to make them feel it. They hit you, so you hit them back even harder, and they learn that hitting people is not free, that when you are aggressive and hit someone, you get hit back. Someone has to teach this else they'll likely be a bully all their life.

Sometimes the only way to reform a kids behavior, is to kick their ass, and while I disagree with adults beating on kids, if you were a kid and some big lesbian girl were bullying you every day, and no amount of words would stop her behavior, how long would it take you to figure out that you have to hit her back to make her stop? Some people only respect force it seems.

I don't think people should bully others, don't get me wrong, but sometimes lessons are painful. I'm not defending violence, I'm saying pain and pleasure are used to train people. First you offer pleasure, if they offer you pain, you can try again, a few times, but eventually you are going to get tired of recieving pain and offer pain back. It's instictive, everyone has that limit. What you advocate is emotional punishment, but this could easily be twisted into emotional abuse, because you told the child no, the child could react with a tantrum and start to emotionally manipulate, which I think is no better, maybe worse.

TT you cant compare bullying to discipline?

I don't hit my kids and they are very well behaved, not by accident, but becauase I use other means to get them to behave. Re Bullies, they are taught if someone hits them they hit back. BUT they are also taught not to hit first. The two of them hit each other on a daily basis, it's natural sibling behaviour. I don't hit them though, thus I am NOT bullying my kids into submission. They do not bully each other into submission. Their fighting is no doubt some form of latent survival training!

When they are 5yrs old, I will send to martial arts training, where they will learn discipline and confidence as well as self defence. They will not be bullied, because their air of confidence will deter it. They will not bully others because their air of confidence will deter it.

They will not be raised victims, they will not be taught to copy what their peers do, they will be taught how to select the right course of action through their own choice not fear.

If you pressure kids into submission with violence, anyone else can do the same at any point later in life as they will be conditioned to respond to violence.

Meanwhile how does a college degree make hitting kids ok? It does not. Exceptional people do not resort to violence to achieve an end. Men who can't control their wives hit them, parents who can't control their kids hit them. Why do you imagine one is right and the other is wrong? Neither is.

Oh and you say I advocate emotional abuse, I do not remotely advocate any such thing. Denying my child a sweet for bad behaviour is not emotional abuse. Ignoring them for hours on end and speaking to them in a derogatory way is emotiuonal abuse. I do neither. When my children have tantrums they do not manipualte me, becuase I ignore all tantrums. Thus they rarely have them. If you give attention negative or positive to tantrums they will reinforce the childs need to use them. Simply ignore them and they cease to exist. I have actually read many 'parenting books' so have no doubt at all that what I say is correct especially as I see the results in practice.

Meanwhile let me make this clear
I do not advocate physical, emotional, mental or any other kind of abuse.

My children are very happy and very well behaved. They have their moments all kids do, but they are good kids. Maybe when you are a parent yourself, you will be better able to judge these things. Meanwhile there are many child psychology books that can confirm your way is by far the wrong way.

I suggest you read 'the secret to happy kids'.