We have all seen this happen before.

One of the pastors of the church I attend just resigned his position of many years, filed for divorce with his dear sweet wife, and is running away with the church secretary.

The question is, why does this kind of thing happen when this man was supposed to be a “born again”, “new creature” in Christ?

So, mighty defenders of the faith, what is the real difference between a “born again” Christian and an unbeliever?

People say things like, “but for the grace of God, there go I.” Well, where was the grace of God in this man’s life? And please don’t just tell me that this man was never really saved!

Thank You!

And please don’t just tell me that this man was never really saved!

Thank You!

Get ready for disappointment then.

OTOH, another response you might get is that according to Christians, Satan puts forth more effort into tempting the 'faithful' than he does non-believers, simply because he doesn't have to, the non-believers are already doomed to hell so he doesn't need to waste his time on them.

He's human.

Is it really that difficult to understand or accept that?

He's human.

Is it really that difficult to understand or accept that?

*************
M*W: My thoughts exactly. He is only human with human thoughts and feelings. I would have expected him to rise above those feelings, but he actually did the more honest thing for himself and everyone.

Just like the case recently heard in a Tennessee court where Mary Winkler was found guilty of manslaughter for shooting her preacher husband in the back and got six years... well their dirty laundry was aired, and I felt really sorry for her from the emotional abuse and the sexual abuse of his daughters. I probably would have shot him at point blank range in the head and dismembered him, too. These preacher-wives have no one to talk to... nowhere to go for reality checks... and how many of their preacher-husbands have we heard about dilly dallying with men, women, children and whatever is out there to dilly dally with?

Oh, I can imagine the excuse this preacher had... "the lord works in mysterious ways...," "to everything there is a season...," "ask and you shall be given...," "love conquers all..., etc., etc..

It is still difficult for the congregation to understand why he would have allowed this to happen. I'm sure his wife must be suffering, and now she's lost her husband, her lifestyle, and probably has a broken family with children involved. But... maybe she's better off now, Maybe her abuse has finally come to an end and maybe her children's has, too. We really don't know what went on in their marriage. I suspect he was unfaithful to his wife for a long time with probably many other women, and he just fell hard for this one.

From my experience, when a husband leaves the wife and kids, it's probably a good thing for all of them. It does hurt for a while, but when the healing comes, it's for the best.

How many unfaithful preachers can you count? I used to watch Jimmy Swaggart just to watch him cry! I love good acting. What about Ted Haggard? What about the shame he put his wife through? Did she stand by him? God, I hope not!

Yes, "to err is human." I just wonder how many couples this preacher counseled when they were having marital problems. Could one of them have been the church secretary and her husband? I guess we'll never know.

This question keeps running through my head... Do atheists have higher morals than christians? Probably so, because there's nothing to flaunt, nothing to lie about, nothing to believe in except each other.

He didn't fall, he's just running away with his secretary, nothing wrong with that.

he actually did the more honest thing for himself and everyone.


Exactly.
I have more respect for him being honest than I would if he continued lying to his wife and congregation.
I also respect him for being honest with himself and going for what he wants.

Good points from One raven and M*W.

Mikenostic's summarization is probobally the most likely reason. The not being saved part is up for debate though because I don't know how he acted or what his attitude was. He was tempted by satan and fell prey.

He was tempted and he gave in. He made committments to God and his wife. He broke them. Let God deal with him. (I can guarantee you that will be worse than anything anyone can say/do to him.)

Was he saved? Probably. Saved people are not perfect. Just redeemed.

Pastors are tempted by the three big G's--girls,glory and gold. Some fall. Most don't. That's why we have to be really careful who we trust with our spiritual learning. We have to pray about any suspicions we may have and let God handle it.

I receive great preaching/messages from a variety of people of God. I use what I need and discard anything that doesn't sit right with my spirit.

We have to forgive this guy just like we would forgive anyone else. He does deserve to be punished but his greatest punishment will be/is his relationship
with God is fractured.

^^

Oh man... I don't know where to start... So I won't bother.:shrug:

^^

Oh man... I don't know where to start... So I won't bother.:shrug:

No kidding!

We have all seen this happen before.

One of the pastors of the church I attend just resigned his position of many years, filed for divorce with his dear sweet wife, and is running away with the church secretary.

The question is, why does this kind of thing happen when this man was supposed to be a “born again”, “new creature” in Christ?

So, mighty defenders of the faith, what is the real difference between a “born again” Christian and an unbeliever?

People say things like, “but for the grace of God, there go I.” Well, where was the grace of God in this man’s life? And please don’t just tell me that this man was never really saved!

Thank You!

Sex is natural, sex is good.~ George Michael

He was tempted and he gave in. He made committments to God and his wife. He broke them. Let God deal with him. (I can guarantee you that will be worse than anything anyone can say/do to him.)

Was he saved? Probably. Saved people are not perfect. Just redeemed.

Pastors are tempted by the three big G's--girls,glory and gold. Some fall. Most don't. That's why we have to be really careful who we trust with our spiritual learning. We have to pray about any suspicions we may have and let God handle it.

I receive great preaching/messages from a variety of people of God. I use what I need and discard anything that doesn't sit right with my spirit.

We have to forgive this guy just like we would forgive anyone else. He does deserve to be punished but his greatest punishment will be/is his relationship
with God is fractured.


This man was an awesome guy in every respect, with, as far as I know, the only exception of these recent events. Fortunately, in this case, there were no children involved.

I will not judge him, and I can only guess at the reasons why he did this. If I ever see him on the street I would still give him a warm greeting. But I am sad for him and especially sad for his wife.

This does tend to make me think, however, that the terms or conditions of being "born again" and being a "new creature", as applied to the Christian, are either not permanent or never really occur at all to begin with.

If his faith could not stop him from doing this then what good is it? Is the Christian faith only able to save him in his sin, instead of from his sin? Is that really what the Bible teaches?

Thanks!

I don't know if he was truly born again. Only he and God know that. We are human. We have free choice. Sometimes we make bad ones. Again, being born-again does not make one perfect (just redeemed and going to Heaven to be with Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior.)

His faith/thinking was apparently weak or had a moment of weakness. That's when satan slips in and temps. He uses money, power, sex, and fame. His faith didn't stop his free will. He chose to disobey. And now he has to answer to God.

I'm guessing you are born again, sandy?

I don't know if he was truly born again. Only he and God know that. We are human. We have free choice. Sometimes we make bad ones. Again, being born-again does not make one perfect (just redeemed and going to Heaven to be with Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior.)

His faith/thinking was apparently weak or had a moment of weakness. That's when satan slips in and temps. He uses money, power, sex, and fame. His faith didn't stop his free will. He chose to disobey. And now he has to answer to God.


Does God save people in their sin or from their sin, Sandy?

We are human. We have free choice. Sometimes we make bad ones.

Must resist, must resist, nah I can't.....spoken like a true theist who can't see the irony.

We have all seen this happen before.

One of the pastors of the church I attend just resigned his position of many years, filed for divorce with his dear sweet wife, and is running away with the church secretary.

The question is, why does this kind of thing happen when this man was supposed to be a “born again”, “new creature” in Christ?

So, mighty defenders of the faith, what is the real difference between a “born again” Christian and an unbeliever?

People say things like, “but for the grace of God, there go I.” Well, where was the grace of God in this man’s life? And please don’t just tell me that this man was never really saved!

Thank You!

Who ever said that once one accepted Jesus as their Redeemer one was transformed into a sinless individual?

If someone did say that then they are deceived and are seeking to deceive others.

The grace of God is in the lives of everyone who believes The Messiah Jesus. And if this man still believes Jesus the grace of God is still with him.

And i am not a believer in the calvinistic doctrine of Irresistible grace or as it is more commonly known O.S.A.S (once saved always saved) People can reject the Love of the Truth and reject the salvation they once had.

The real difference between a Follower of the Messiah Jesus and an unbeliever is the unbeliever is unforgiven. While the Believer is forgiven.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Does God save people in their sin or from their sin, Sandy?

God saves people from the eternal consequence of their sins.

God saves sinners who believe and trust in the atoning work of the Messiah Jesus for the forgiveness of sin.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

This does tend to make me think, however, that the terms or conditions of being "born again" and being a "new creature", as applied to the Christian, are either not permanent or never really occur at all to begin with.

Its not about a change in action but it is about a change in attitude towards an action. To have the right Spirit is to have the right attitude to Loving others and resisting sin. But of course we fail in the execution of our actions both Loving and sinful because we are still human beings.

If his faith could not stop him from doing this then what good is it? Is the Christian faith only able to save him in his sin, instead of from his sin? Is that really what the Bible teaches?

Thanks!

Your focused on the here and now aren’t you.

You think that the only possible reason for people to follow a Faith is to obtain some form of perfection or material bliss in this world.

Of course there are real benefits to following the Messiah Jesus in this world. Many people experience varying degrees of improvements in their lives as a result of accepting Jesus as Messiah. But no serious follower of the Messiah Jesus follows Him for the benefits before the grave.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Who ever said that once one accepted Jesus as their Redeemer one was transformed into a sinless individual?

If someone did say that then they are deceived and are seeking to deceive others.

The grace of God is in the lives of everyone who believes The Messiah Jesus. And if this man still believes Jesus the grace of God is still with him.

And i am not a believer in the calvinistic doctrine of Irresistible grace or as it is more commonly known O.S.A.S (once saved always saved) People can reject the Love of the Truth and reject the salvation they once had.

The real difference between a Follower of the Messiah Jesus and an unbeliever is the unbeliever is unforgiven. While the Believer is forgiven.

Its not about a change in action but it is about a change in attitude towards an action. To have the right Spirit is to have the right attitude to Loving others and resisting sin. But of course we fail in the execution of our actions both Loving and sinful because we are still human beings.


1 John 3
3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Adstar, according to this passage, God saves people from their sin, not in their sin as you seem to be teaching. And it really does matter what a person does. You seem to be teaching exactly the opposite of this.

Nice to talk with you again! I hope you are doing well!

I don't know if he was truly born again. Only he and God know that. We are human. We have free choice. Sometimes we make bad ones. Again, being born-again does not make one perfect (just redeemed and going to Heaven to be with Jesus Christ their Lord and Savior.)

His faith/thinking was apparently weak or had a moment of weakness. That's when satan slips in and temps. He uses money, power, sex, and fame. His faith didn't stop his free will. He chose to disobey. And now he has to answer to God.

Just so you know where you're Satan myth comes from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

The Hebrews refered to the Angles that prosecuted people going into heaven(oh I love saying it that way), "Satans". Literally - The Accusers. You're buddy Constantine chucked the verses/books that deal with this definition. The concept of Demons(like Azazel, Asmodeus) came from Zoroaster whom they were exposed to as slaves/exiles in Babylon. Basically you've got a 3000+ year bullshit story that's piggy-backed on another bullshit story that didn't scare people into submission back then either.

1 John 3
3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure. 4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. 5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin. 6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. 7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Adstar, according to this passage, God saves people from their sin, not in their sin as you seem to be teaching. And it really does matter what a person does. You seem to be teaching exactly the opposite of this.

Nice to talk with you again! I hope you are doing well!



1 John 3
4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

To Practice something is not just to do it. To practice something is to seek to do it, to seek to become better at it, to be as it where an enthusiastic partaker of sinning. Like sports enthusiast who attends practice sessions with the purpose of improving their game.

One who Practices sin does not seek to avoid the sin but in fact seeks every opportunity they can find to engage in that sin.

Once again it is about Attitude to sin. If someone has the right Spirit towards the will of God they will seek to avoid sin.

1 John 1
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

PS: i am doing great. just had a wonderful weekend in beautiful Autumn sunshine had a good BBQ with friends.