It's a simple question, I have always wondered about.

What would you do if you knew the truth?

People believe strongly in many things, but they don't really know for sure.

What would you do if you found out there was a God, but not the one you believed in ? or you found out for sure there wasn't any such being.

What if you knew for sure there were aliens, or in fact there were most definitly none, and we're all alone in the blackness of the abyss?

Given the opportunity, given the choice, would you really want to be told something that may very well contradict an entire lifetime of dedication and belief?

That's what happened to me, and it was a relief. I feel compelled to share the Word, and I do. I wish that I could somehow make it more obvious, or explain it better, or provide some undeniable proof, but I can't, and it's frustrating, but I accept that is just how it is. I have the proof in my own heart, but each person has to get this on their own to truly know. All I can say is that one should never stop questioning and searching their soul for the truth. Seek and ye shall find. That is a promise, and it's true. God Bless.

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"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

I have already had many of my most dear, precious beliefs blasted out of the water by the flaming sword of truth. (Yes, I am aware of the irony of an atheist using biblical symbolism.) Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy, all these were myths that, as I got older, gradually fell away. But to wake one day and realize that there is no god judging me, that there is no heaven or hell, that there is no such thing as fate, and that I alone am master of my soul, these things left a cold, lonely wind blowing through my heart.

It has cost me dearly. Members of my own family treat me like I've got some kind of strange disease because I don't say grace before meals. I am all but excommunicated because I say that Jesu ben Josef, if he ever lived at all, was just one of many so-called messiahs who got singled out because he was able to grab attention. I am treated like a leper because I say that sooner or later science can figure out every problem that it comes across.

The Christian bible warns of the falling away. I didn't fall away, I jumped. Through careful observation and analysis I was able to see through the murky fog into a painful truth that both blinded me and opened my eyes. Unfortunately, one of the first things I saw was that my family were not the people I had thought them to be. I was Isaac to their Abraham, and I was sacrificed (more or less shunned) on some apparent order from their god. This was the most traumatic of all.

I survived learning my truth, however, and the cold wind has either gotten warmer or else I have gotten used to it. If I had to do it all over again, I'd do it all over again. I would rather face a painful, blinding truth than to go on living a lie.

Oxygen -

Your post deserves acknowledgement. Devoting yourself to truth at all costs is perhaps the noblest pursuit I can imagine, and I salute you for it.

FyreStar

"Men occaisionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves and hurry off as if nothing had happened." - Winston Churchill

I can agree with your post Oxygen, for me it's mostly the same. Although my family aren't deeply religeous.

One day you wake up, and you just know there isn't a God, and you just know you aren't going live forever. The rest of your life, like the billions before us is just making the best of it.

What's your truth Lori? What do you know?

Me? The exact opposite of what you guys are saying. I know that there is a God. I came to the exact opposite conclusion that you guys did, after a lot of soul searching and actual research, and analyzing my life and society. I have no idea how you came to your conclusion. Well, maybe that's exaggerating, as I did feel the same way that you all do BEFORE I started examining things, and got really honest with myself. But after I did get honest, there was no other answer for me.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Huh, talk about soul-searching!! I think I'm a pro at this by now. ;)

Oxygen & Mike, I too know how you feel! My mother was very Catholic when I was a kid, and somehow that never would work for me. She thought it was just horrible when I refused to say the word "God" during the pledge of allegiance (In first grade, no less!). It just never, ever felt right to me. I don't believe in that god, I don't follow that faith, and it seems insulting 2 different ways that I was expected to pledge allegiance to my country "under God". I thought it was unfair that I had to say it (one), and since I DIDN'T follow that belief, it seemed to me that I was being disrespectful to claim it (two). I was given a gold cross for my 7th birthday by my grandmother, and could never bring myself to wear it, even though I know she dearly wanted me to. It just seemed disrespectful and untruthful for me to display a symbol that so many people hold dear, when to me it was just a lower case "t". My mom finally made me wear it for school picture day - for grandma's sake, she said. So as I put it on, I said a little chant talking to "the powers", asking them to forgive me for wearing a symbol of a God I didn't believe in. I was careful not to let Mom hear that one!! I just now realized that what I did impulsively as a 7 year old was essentially casting a spell!! What do you know?

Nowadays, I am closer to believing in the Christian God than ever before, even though I am now studying witchcraft. I believe he is not what the Christians and other monotheistic religions believe he is, however. I think he's just one of many gods and goddesses, and they have singled him out for some reason. I don't believe he did a lot of what they think he did, either. I don't believe Jesus was his son, I don't think Mary had a "virgin birth". I think Jesus WAS a good man, but he was just as human and mortal as you and I. I agree with you, Oxygen, I think he was what we would call a cult leader today. Maybe not as fanatical and controlling as some of these guys are nowadays, but essentially, that's what I think he was.

I don't think the Christian God created the world either. I think, rather, that ALL of the Gods and Goddesses are just manifestations of the life-force that permeates the universe, and they gain their form from our perceptions and symbolic meanings that shape this energy. In a sense, I think they're right that God has existed eternally. ALL of the energy in the universe has existed all along, so as far back as our reality goes, everything has existed eternally.

This means, in a sense, that Satan might exist as well. I believe the Gods & Goddesses are shaped by human thought/prayer/spells/meditation... So, there's a lot of people out there shaping something called "satan"... He would then (in my parlance) be a minor god. A god that has received nothing but ill will, mean thoughts, and worship from "bad" people. A god to watch out for, certainally, but since I dont' believe in heaven or hell, his power over me is limited indeed. I inted good will when I meditate/pray/cast a spell, so "satan" doesn't know me. Does that make sense to anyone? It's hard for me to explain, these thoughts have been subliminal for so long, it's only recently I have stumbled upon them and dragged them out into the light.

Lori -

Interesting - you and I seem to have come from similar thoughts (disbelieving god and such), but you found one God, and I found many. I wonder what the difference between us is that makes that happen?

I have had my eyes opened recently, I really have. It's strange, my finding this forum was such a lucky shot, I was researching witchcraft and just stumbled here. I feel kinda like you guys have witnessed a huge growth spurt in my thological beliefs. I went back and re-read my posts (from mere weeks ago!) and realized how much I have found in just a short time. But I think it's knowledge I have already had for years and years, I just finally put 2 and 2 together.

But, what I'm trying to say is, Lori, I am happy for you that you have found your faith. Now that I have found my own spiritual path, I realize I cannot discredit yours. In re-reading my previous posts, I think I might have been a little hard on you & Truestory when I first came around here, and I want to apologize for that. I meant not to criticize you personally, I meant only to criticize your faith. But, I shouldn't criticize, I should debate. I don't know exactly how this is going to sound when you read it, I'm grappeling with a lot of intense powers right now, so my daily thought patterns are a bit sketchy.

Another viewpoint:

When you are personally visited by aliens, you "know" they exist. Based on my experience, I fear aliens in the sense that I am afraid of them and what their intentions are with respect to the human race... However, they have no power over God and cannot hurt me in the long-run.

When you are personally visited by God, you "know" that God exists. Based on my experience, I fear God, NOT in the sense that I am afraid of God, but, rather, in the sense that I am in "awe" of God's power, love and mercy...

Based on the message which I received from God, Lori, I applaud your efforts. Spreading the "Word" that it is not too late, that all things can be forgiven, that truly repenting and accepting Jesus Christ into your life will bring all good things (including eternal salvation) is exactly what God told me that he wants us to do.

You, Lori, must be much stronger, much more intelligent and much more spiritual than I to have learned this through a process of self-examination... I searched for years, found nothing and fell into a state of apathy. I received the message personally while in that apathetic state (pretty weak, to say the least). In our different ways, Lori, we are living proof that the power of God is wonderful, indeed!!!

Hi Mike,
the truth eh? I think I would love to know the truth, because really that's the only thing that counts. But then I think what truth? there are so many questions, so many truths... do I know enough yet, to know what truth to ask for? one question and one truth that would make everything clear? probably not.
I guess the biggest question of mankind is whether there really is a god, at least the god of their own individual religion and you know, even though I'm atheist, sometimes I do pray to Jesus and wish him to be real, then I would do anything for him. Not because I'd be afraid of going to hell or because I'd be after some kind of heavenly reward because I believe that these types of motivations are immature in an evolutionary sense. But because by knowing the truth that Jesus is actually the living god and the creator, any acts of sacrifice and service I would perform, would be done simply because they would be the right thing to do, with no doubts or questions to plague my actions.
A decade ago, I thought I'd discovered the truth when I became a 'born again' christian.
For a while it felt exciting and I felt quite happy, but 2 or 3 years later, my innate sense of perfection and honesty bade me to want to give up my money, my wife, my business and yearn to sacrifice the rest of my life looking after the starving in Ethiopia.
It was make or break time, I began to grow desperately unhappy about my feelings, yet I knew that if I was going to continue to call myself a christian then I would have to follow my christian heart down my own narrow little path to 'salvation'.But deep down I had a nagging doubt.
I looked around at my christian friends, so cliquey in their assemblage, so hypocritical in their deeds and actions, so unquestioningly naive in their acceptance of all things biblical and yet so unspiritual in the real world.
I looked around at the church ministers and all I could see were salesmen giving their pitch. "Today we are collecting for our mission in outer nowhere land where fanatical muslims burnt down our hut, please give generously" (10 minutes later) "Now we'd like to collect for one of our brethren in a sattelite church, who's had a bit of bad luck" (10 minutes later) "Now before todays main collection, I just want you to understand that just because it says that you have to give 10 percent of your income to the church in the bible, it doesn't mean that that's all you should give. No, that is the minimum you should give, jesus gave his own life blah blah spiritual/emotional blackmail bleh bleh "
I thought, not for nothing does it say that if you want to truly follow Jesus you have to be a fool for this world. 'Well I'm not going to be anybody's fool', I said, as I realised just how duped I had been by this mass hysteria that these guys peddle. I realised that to be happy I had to follow my human will and not stifle my spiritual growth by following in the costraints set up by this guy Jesus, I mean, look at how he ended up? was it worth it? if he was bullshittin', hell he's got a lot to answer for boy! anyway, I simply became a non christian and in fact an atheist just as simply as I became a 'believer' and a 'christian', 3 years earlier.
The point is, I am so honest with myself and the way I understand and interpret the bible that I would have proceeded all the way to christian martyrdom If I was so compelled by my 'christian heart'.Thankfully I didn't, I sold my business and retired in the sunshine instead and I continue to follow my human heart and human brain to dream and search for truths which they don't teach you in school. And I make my own happiness.That's the truth!

Wow! Great question, Mike! There's lots of wonderful stuff here! My own search for the truth is far from over (at least, I hope so :) ), and I'm sure it's a lifelong process for everyone else as well. Since none of my beliefs are set in concrete, I don't think there's much that can surprise me. Whatever turns out to be the truth in the end, that's what I will accept (if I am around in any way, shape or form to accept anything, that is). I will only regret that the play has ended when I was enjoying it so much!

SkyeBlue - that was very nice! Indeed I have seen a huge spiritual growth spurt in you since you've been on this board. Congratulations on finding your path! I can kind of relate to your experience with a mother whose religion you don't buy into - my mother was Mormon for a period of time while I was growing up, and she forced her religion on me and my sisters. From the time I was about 12 years old, she had the "home teachers" come and visit me every week, pushing their "one true religion" down my throat, and badgering me about when I was going to be baptised. I finally relented after 2 years, and felt like such a weakling for doing it! I really admire your strength of character, even as a young child. I hated going to church 3 times a week (much more than that if you include the year I attended seminary every morning before school!). As soon as I was old enough to make my own choices, I quit going to church, and began searching for my own truths.

Oxygen - I know what you mean about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy. I was crushed when I found out they weren't real - not so much because I wanted them to be real, but because I realized that my parents, who I had trusted implicitly up until that point, were so willing to lie to me!

Tab - which truth, indeed! By what device does one measure the truth? I know what yardstick Lori and Truestory use to measure everything else against, but what if that yardstick itself is not true? Then everything else they have judged to be true or not must be called into question! Lori, Truestory - any comments on that?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,

Sure, I'll comment since you asked but, please do not read if you can't handle strong differences of opinion well...


Oxygen - I know what you mean about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy. I was crushed when I found out they weren't real - not so much because I wanted them to be real, but because I realized that my parents, who I had trusted implicitly up until that point, were so willing to lie to me!

People lie, Searcher, God does not. However, I don't think that it was necessarily your parents' intent to "lie" to you. It was probably more a matter that they wanted you to experience what they considered to be magical childhood fantasies. Your reaction to learning the truth and mine were quite different. You were crushed for the reason you stated. I, on the other hand, had some doubts beforehand. I might have felt somewhat disappointed at first but, when I realized that it was actually my mother, who had next to nothing material to give, who was actually the one doing everything possible to provide for her children and giving credit for her great deeds to such characters as Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy for so many years, I admired her even more than I did before. Since it is the Christmas season I would like to interject that, as "less fortunate" as my family was considered by others, what I really looked forward to every Christmas was, learning what it was that my Mother had done that year for a family less fortunate than ours. She, of course, would never tell us kids directly what she had done for others. As we got older and realized what kind of a woman she was, we had to play sleuths to find out what she had decided to do each particular year. We were never disappointed in Mom's decisions.


Tab - which truth, indeed! By what device does one measure the truth? I know what yardstick Lori and Truestory use to measure everything else against, but what if that yardstick itself is not true? Then everything else they have judged to be true or not must be called into question! Lori, Truestory - any comments on that?

Searcher... Throughout life, we often learn that we have been mislead or that someone has lied to us... When that happens to you, Searcher, do you then question everything? In answer to your question above, in general, I do not and would not question everything which I judged to be true or not true. For example, when I doubted the existence of God (based in part by what I was told by others), I was not crushed to learn that God did, indeed, exist.

In the case of my experiences with people, I accept that people are human, that they are not perfect, and that yes, sometimes they mislead you or lie to you. It certainly can be annoying and disppointing at times but, hey, that's life. What impact does your parents' perceived lie about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy have on your current doubt of the existence of God? It sounds like one of YOUR yardsticks. If so, my suggestion to you is... Get over it!

Learning the truth about the existence of God is kind of like learning the truth about the non-existence of Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy. When we were brought into this world, like most infants, all of us here probably started off by behaving and being treated by our parents as though we were the center of the universe. Later in life, we not only heard about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy, we also heard about "God," somewhere, somehow... Only this God "character" is not like the others. God is more serious, more spiritual, more mature and more complex. God does not present us with material things under the tree, in baskets or under our pillows on specially designated days once a year when "God" is supposed to bring us gifts. In addition to the fact that we can see the gifts which God has given us everyday of our lives, there is something different about "God". Not only does God not go away for a year at a time, God stays with us everyday, asking us to behave in certain ways in which we would have to deny ourselves certain temporal "pleasures" which we have been told by other human beings are O.K.. Not only does God not give us material things on specially designated days, not only does God not go away for a year at a time, not only does God ask us to behave in a certain way, God also asks that we give to others, that we accept responsibility for what we have done wrong in this life and that we accept Jesus Christ into our lives, AS OUR SAVIOR, so that we can share with God in the ultimate gift of eternal salvation!!! Deep down in our hearts, we know that God is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth... But, the way to eternal happiness and salvation does not seem to allow us to experience all the decadence around us (like Eve taking a bite from the apple) and that's tough to swallow (or not to swallow), for sure... Then, in a way, we start the denial process by hoping that God does NOT exist (in order for us to experience the same temporal pleasures with which Satan was successful in tempting Eve with and which Satan attempted to tempt Jesus with, while Jesus was here on earth).

So, whether it be in a conscious or unconscious effort not to deny ourselves of the temporal pleasures in life... We then say that we are unsure of the existence of or the motivations of God, and we ask... Could this be true? I mean, after all, I've been lied to before (by my parents, who were like Gods to me, no less)... Maybe this is just another lie? I believe I am a good person and I really enjoy experiencing some of the things which God has told me to stay away from. (Like Eve, we are convinced by Satan that God is trying to hoard all the knowledge and that it is really ours for the taking). After all, none of us are perfect so, why should I ask forgiveness for the things that I have done wrong? Everybody does things wrong at least once in a while... I do good most of the time, so, if there is a God, shouldn't my good deeds be enough to enter into the kingdom of heaven, if it exists?

Quite frankly, Searcher, I believe we go into a state of denial about the existence of God, about our knowledge of good and evil and we call it "doubt". Like many before me and many to come after me, I've been there. We call it a "search for the truth" -however, aren't we really taking the easy way out and blaming it on such things as our parents having "lied" to us about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy? After all, we justify, if the "powers that be" lied to me about "them", they must be lying to me about "God", too, right?! Being human, with the same temporal desires, we tend to agree with each other and comfort each other in our falling from grace.

Before my visit from "God" I was apathetic. I had searched for years for the "truth" and I doubted the existence of God. Eventually, I kidded myself into thinking that I really didn't care that much about the truth... I doubted that I would ever find it (although I already had) and I figured... Oh, well... What difference does it make, anyway??? I am a good person... I don't do anything worse than the next guy... If there is a God, why wouldn't I be allowed into heaven? And, if there is no God and no heaven and no hell, being the person that I am certainly can't hurt me!

After God's visit, however, I learned from the mouth of God, what the truth was and that "how" we lead our lives here on earth "does" make a difference... that "believing" that we are good people is NOT enough... that it is not too late for us to repent for the wrong that we have done, that ALL things can be forgiven, that all GOOD things (including eternal salvation) will come through the acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Having heard this diirectly from God, I "know" it to be the truth. I hope you and others will hear the same soon, Searcher, so that your search will end and you can start living your life... "In the Truth" and enlightenment of the Holy Spirit.

Sincerely,

truestory



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 11, 1999).]

Truestory,

Yes, although I do consider all things to be possible, I do question all things - including your story of having "met" God. Did you "see" God, as well as "hear" Him? Or did you just hear a voice that may have come from a register or intercom, and decide that it was "God" talking to you? How do you know it wasn't aliens putting on a show for you? Or, since you've been abducted by aliens, maybe it's post-hypnotic suggestion - again, alien in origin?

What if there are two or more groups of aliens competing for control of this planet, and when they give orders or advice or information to humans, they all claim to be "God" or angels of God? Have you put any of your experiences to critical analysis? Or were you just so overwhelmed by these incomprehensible events, that you just took them at face value?

I guess the difference between you and me, Truestory, is that I NEVER take anything at face value anymore. No doubt, this is my reaction to being lied to as a child by those I trusted the most.

By the way, my mother became a born-again Christian in 1980, and if she had it to do over again, she would never lie to her children. As a matter of fact, it is her belief that Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy all came from the mind of Satan to undermine the faith of little children. I don't discount this idea - as I said, all things are possible, and this makes as much sense as anything else.

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www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher,
You brought out some very good points. Especially the one concerning that TS might of heard from aliens instead of God.
What I do not understand is how others can actually believe there is only one way to truth. Christians believe this one way is through Jesus. I believe that truth is truth..who cares where the source comes from as long as it is truth. Also, it seems to me that Jesus was more interested in glory for himself. He thinks he is the ONLY son of God...that he is PERFECT in every way...and that he is the only KEY for people to get to God. I think he had an ego problem. It seems all he wants is credit and praise...and not really concerned with our search for truth.

SkyeBlue,

That's a good question. When I was trying to find some answers, the Bible was the first place and the last place that I looked. When I was young, my grandma tried to spoon-feed it to me, and I witnessed a lot of the same weirdness that Tab is talking about, and experienced the same feelings that turn people off to Christianity all the time. The very fact that someone was trying to spoon-feed it to me bothered me. I'm just not like that. I question the hell out of everything, and I'm too proud when it comes to my intelligence, which I'm not saying the pride is a good thing. It's usually what stands in the way of true enlightenment. That takes humility. There, there is a contradiction I'd like to point out. This is how my head works...I'm extremely intelligent, and successful in my educational and professional endeavors, been described as a little human computer, used to do my calculus homework in college stoned to the bone, and got straight A's. Speech class too. Stoned to the bone and I got straight A's. I actually unnecessarily challenged myself, just because I could and get away with it. And because of this, I developed a sense of pride that ultimately got in the way of or delayed my true enlightenment. I know that especially in some areas of my life, I have certainly had to learn things the hard way. Become humbled. Sorry, I kind of got off track, but that's how I see God, and when I see those kind of contradictions it just blows my mind. Anyway...

So when I was looking...I was much more inclined to believe in some of the same things that you do. I had a real hard time with the exclusivity of Christianity, and didn't understand it. I set out to compare different religions and beliefs and thought that I would probably find that they all perpetuated the same types of works in people, or behavior rather. And I was right, they do. Christianity included. It's just that they attribute their beliefs to different gods and/or to different reasons. In other words, the line is still drawn, it's usually in about the same place, but it's drawn for different reasons. Clear as mud? The thing that got me is that the Bible explains that phenomenon, and no other religion does. Not in any way that has made sense to me anyway. You know, ultimately, what it always came down to was that I always, always, always find an answer in the Bible that makes logical sense to me. Regarding everything. Other religions capitalize upon spiritual laws which exist because God created them with specific intent and reason, reason being to create the PERFECT existence for us. What is Satan's motivation? To attribute these laws unto himself, and to disguise the original intent to which they serve, with the motivation to hurt God and to undermine Him. As our happiness and communion with Him is most important to Him. He wants life to be perfect for us. BUT, spiritual laws manifest in certain ways, and there's nothing Satan can do to change that. It's like science you know? And people recognize that in their heart's, and there certainly are many things that Satan can do to harden your heart to God. Things like greed, lust, envy, anger, pride, and so on, but I think that most people, even if they have trouble controlling these feelings at times, recognize them as evil and destructive, no matter what faith you serve. So what is Satan to do? The only thing he can do is disguise himself, and disguise the original intent of the Laws of God. He doesn't care why you don't find true salvation, he just cares that you don't. I think that it is naive to think that the only way that Satan can affect us is in a way which is easily recognizable as evil. I see Christianity, and the New Testament specifically, as the final Word. So, the fact that so many different beliefs exist, and even when you look at the denominationalism within Christianity, makes it difficult for us to reconcile the Christian faith, due to the absolutism and idealism which it represents. THAT is Satan. Just one of the many, many ways that He keeps us from realizing the TRUTH.

This is one of the reasons why I believe that the new age relgion is the religion of the end times, of the Antichrist, of the NWO that it talks of in the Bible. It's the only thing that I can see to be appealing enough of an idea to reconcile religious segregation into a one world religion. Of course Christianity DOES do that as well, but it seems to be a bitter pill. Satan is always a sugar pill. It tastes good. Man is God. Yum! Yum! Because that means that there are no absolutes. Hurray! No rules! YOU draw the line, and you get to draw it where ever you want to. I think that logically it's pretty ridiculous to assume that we have the capacity to do that. I mean, look around? Is everybody happy??!! Are we safe to assume that we really can say that we even are aware of what true happiness is, and why? I don't feel that way about myself (humility). And remember that Satan and his demons can present themselves to be ANYTHING they want to be to us, or more appropriately, anything that we want them to be. They can and do represent themselves as proof of false religious doctrines. That's what I think that aliens are. Beings of light. Coming to tell you that they created you and that you too can progress to be gods like them. Mmmm...tasty.

Oh, and I definately appreciate your apology, and your sentiments regarding what we're doing here. It's not easy to talk about these things. I am soooo aware of that!

Truestory,

I'm inclined in a way to take what you said as a compliment, but that would be contradictory to what I've said above. I almost feel the exact opposite, in that I feel like the true IQ test is how long it takes you to find the truth you know? I guess it's all relative. Some people live their whole lives and never find Him. But I really don't think that it had anything to do with me until I was humbled enough to really allow God to speak to my heart. That's how I think it is with everyone. Pain happens, and it seems that you always have a choice, to be humbled by it and find God, or to be hardened by it and suffer the consequences in your life. I got tired of suffering like many do. But believe me, I learned the hard way.

Searcher,

All I can say is that every single time I have that yardstick tested, it's right on the money. And you have no way of knowing this, but I just wouldn't and couldn't believe in something that wasn't logical, or that I didn't have proof of that I see all the time, all around me, in my life, and in the world. It just makes sense to me. Every single solitary time, in every instance and circumstance. Now yes, I do have trouble putting this proof into words, but I've been practicing, and I hope I'm getting better. (?)

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Sorry if I offend anyone here... It seems to me that those who proclaim to be in search of the truth also believe that noone has ever found the truth yet... and that it can't be known?

What is your true reason for supposedly "searching" then? Do you think that you will be the great one, the first to find the truth?

If you believe that the truth hasn't been found because it can't ever be known, then why are you even bothering to "search"???

Flash,


Also, it seems to me that Jesus was more interested in glory for himself. He thinks he is the ONLY son of God...that he is PERFECT in every way...and that he is the only KEY for people to get to God. I think he had an ego problem. It seems all he wants is credit and praise...and not really concerned with our search for truth.

Jesus IS God. Jesus does not think things out of arrogance or because He has an ego problem... We are the ones with the ego problems. We have a hard time accepting that there is one more knowledgeable and more powerful than us... One who "knows" all and can do all. Again, Jesus does not "think" things to be true or not true, Jesus "knows" things to be true or not true. God loves us more than we can imagine and came to us in the form of man (Jesus) so that we would know the way to eternal salvation "with God."

So, I suggest to anyone who is truly searching for the truth to humble themselves, to drop their contempt for authority and to look to Jesus to find your answers. The "truth" is with Him and it has been made simple for us to understand. If you choose not to believe it, then you do so of your own free will and you know the consequences of such a choice.

Searcher,

Yes, I did "see" and "hear" God. I posted this experience a while back. I will take a look for it and repost it here if it is found. How do I know it was not a recorder or an intercom? Because there were thousands of people in the heavily-visited tourist area and noone else heard the message. Those who were with me, saw that I was "seeing" and experiencing something awesome but they did not know what had happened until I told them.

God instructed me to spread the Word, spoke to me about repentance and total forgiveness, and informed me that all good things (including eternal salvation) come through the Son, Jesus Christ. Although unexpected, and with the exception of evil spirits that tried to scare me away so that I would not see God or hear the messsage, God's visit to me was a totally honest, pure, loving and revealing experience. If it happened to you, believe me, you would no longer have any doubts.

There were many negatives associated with the aliens' visit... Including the fact that they instructed me to lie to my mother about the experience.

The forces at work during these respective experiences were totally opposite of each other.

PS

I found the post (which was a response to Boris)...

A few years ago, God appeared to me and instructed me to spread the word. Contrary to what you insist about a previous religious bias, as I have stated before, I was not "religious" prior to this experience. Yes, over the years, I had various unsolicited experiences with what some consider to be paranormal. I had various revealing premonitions and warnings and I even had my mother's spirit manifest itself to me in a translucent, physical form which I could see. These experiences did show me evidence of an afterlife, however, I did not necessarily associate these experiences with God. Like many, I had questions, but I just accepted my experiences and went on with my usually mundane life. As of a few years ago, I was actually apathetic about the existence/non-existence of God and, although I had heard about it, I had never read the Bible. It was only after this particular communication did I take the path of studying and following the life and teachings (the word) of Jesus Christ.

As I said, I was sightseeing in New York City. All of a sudden, there came a physical force sending excruciating pain through my body. I was getting the message that there was "something" that wanted me to move away from my physical location. I also quickly sensed that the "something" was not good (and I never did like bullies) so I stood my ground. Next, a multitude of horrible, SCREAMING spirits flew at and by my head, in what I sensed was another attempt to get me to move from that spot. I sensed that something good was going to happen which these spirits did not want me to see. Again, I stood my ground. After what seemed forever (but it was actually only about ten to twenty seconds), the pain, the chaos, the screaming and the "bad" spirits disappeared. I had a clarity of vision and I was engulfed with a feeling of peace when the spirit of a woman manifested itself to me (again, translucent) in a manner that I could see. With mouth moving (not that it should make much difference), the woman said, "Behold, the Father." Next, the spirit of an ancient male manifested itself to me in the same manner. I immediately "knew" that it was God, "The Father," before the message was even given. The message itself confirmed what I already knew to be true. When God, the Father said, "Behold, the Son," the spirit of an infant was also manifested in the same manner. The message was clear, pure and loving and I "knew" the Son to be Jesus Christ... "Through Him, all good things will come."

After this communication, as I said, I started studying the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. It is no coincidence that the message I received was reiterated throughout Biblical history and during the life of Jesus Christ. The magnificence of the message and our God who sent it cannot be denied.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 12, 1999).]

My view on truth is this; there is no single Truth in the universe. There are many truths, perhaps infinitely many. As we go through life we accumulate them as dictated by our innate curiosity. I do not think it is possible to know all truths. Supposing for a moment it *were* possible, what would I do? What would I need to do? I would already know how everything would turn out, so what motivation would I have to 'do' anything?

Humans seem to have a built in need to *know*. However, it is a rather daunting task to know nothing, and set your goals to be everything. Some give up, some comfort themselves with faith in various deities, and some struggle as much as they can to make a dent in the overwhelming darkness that is the unknown.

FyreStar

FyreStar,

You supposed:


Supposing for a moment it *were* possible, what would I do? What would I need to do? I would already know how everything would turn out, so what motivation would I have to 'do' anything?

If you accepted the truth that God exists and wants to share eternal life with us, that you are on the path to either eternal salvation or eternal damnation, that God will forgive everything when you truly repent, that using your gift of free will by accepting Jesus Christ into your life is the way to eternal salvation and that God wants us to spread that message so that as many souls as possible can be saved, you would be motivated to spread God's word and... THAT is what you would do... You would repent, you would accept Jesus Christ as you Savior and you would spread the word of God.

Truestory,

It sounds to me like you were subjected to the "Good God, Bad God" routine. I'd like to refer you to the Gospel according to St. John, chapter 1, verse 18:

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Truestory, how would you feel if you found out something really devastating to your religious beliefs? Oh, I don't know - let's say it turned out that the four Gospels were actually written by an early Roman family whose only goal was to gain greater control of the people? That they "invented" Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the apostles - the whole 9 yards? That everything you based your religious beliefs on was a farce? You say you weren't crushed to find out that there was a God - but the real question is, would you be crushed to find out that you've been lied to all this time about your God?

I'm not saying that any of this is the case - I'm just saying, "What if?" Would you rather go on in blissful ignorance, or would you want to know the real truth - even if it blew away everything you "knew for sure"? If I'm not mistaken, that was the whole idea behind this thread, but I don't feel you've really answered this question.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

truestory -

You proceed on the arrogant assumption that you know 'the' truth. Personally, I prefer not to delude myself with warm visions of a loving god who will take care of me.

FyreStar

Searcher,

You can say what if about anything, but that does not foster the truth. The fact is that the circumstance that you proposed will never happen. It's impossible. I mean, the truth IS the truth. It's not subjective to our suggestions, or interpretations, or desires, or understanding. We don't have anything to do with drawing that line. All we can do is recognize that it exists and who did draw it and why.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

Lori,

It is becoming more and more apparent to me that Christians are incapable of answering this type of question regarding their religious beliefs. Everyone else is capable of at least giving it a fair shot - but it is a major mental block in the mind of a Christian. That's just the way it is and I guess I can accept that. The thing I have a hard time figuring out is, if you can't follow the rules of a particular game - why do you bother to play at all?

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Searcher: Do not make such broad stereotyping statements. Yes, it is true. Many christians are mindless zealots who have never seriously questioned their beliefs, but many are not zealots. Heres my answers (to prove you worng :)):

If I found out my god existed, I would not change anything. If I found out that a god existed, but not mine, I would worship him according to his preferences. If I found out there was no god, I would keep on living a christian life (though I would stop praying :)).

Hope this helps you to see there are many kinds of christians, and some are actually intelligent.

Corp. Hudson,

Have you definitely decided that you are a Christian yet? The last time we discussed this, you seemed to be a bit confused as to what religion you were (you were wavering between Judaism and Christianity, as I recall). If that's still the case, then it doesn't really count. But if you have in fact made that commitment, then congratulations on having proven me wrong.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Someone said this:
"""My view on truth is this; there is no single Truth in the universe."""

Yet, in order for your statement to be accurate, it must be true (an absolute truth).

"""There are many truths, perhaps infinitely many."""

The first half of your statements must also be an absolute truth if it is accurate.

To sum up, basically your saying there is no single truth but at the same time saying that there is no single truth is a single truth of the universe. I think you need to rethink your philosophy. It contradicts itself.

I know the truth. I have a personal relationship with the truth and I encourage you to do the same if you do not already.

Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life"


""""". I believe he is not what the Christians and other monotheistic religions believe he is, however. I think he's just one of many gods and goddesses, and they have singled him out for some reason. I don't believe he did a lot of what they think he did, either. I don't believe Jesus was his son, I don't think Mary had a "virgin birth". I think Jesus WAS a good man, but he was just as human and mortal as you and I. I agree with you, Oxygen, I think he was what we would call a cult leader today. """"""'

C.S. said this in "mere christianity" page 56:

"I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept his claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a good moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic-on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg-or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronising nonsense about His being a great moral teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to."


"""""Yes, although I do consider all things to be possible, I do question all things - including your story of having "met" God. Did you "see" God, as well as "hear" Him? Or did you just hear a voice that may have come from a register or intercom, and decide that it was "God" talking to you? How do you know it wasn't aliens putting on a show for you? """"

God talks to me over the telephone. He even uses 1-800-COLLECT.


""""What if there are two or more groups of aliens competing for control of this planet, and when they give orders or advice or information to humans, they all claim to be "God" or angels of God? Have you put any of your experiences to critical analysis?""""

You may have a point. A very dull one at that. That gets the dreaded thunmbs down. It may seem like an alternate explanation at first glance but under meticulous scrutinization it will end up just like that face on mars. In the gutter. The claim could always be made but it woulkd be broken down to a point of being just plain silly.

""""Also, it seems to me that Jesus was more interested in glory for himself. He thinks he is the ONLY son of God...that he is PERFECT in every way...and that he is the only KEY for people to get to God. I think he had an ego problem. It seems all he wants is credit and praise...and not really concerned with our search for truth.""""

The self degredation He suffered on the cross proves your point. Oops, no it doesn't. It says just the opposite. You can tell jesus that personally on judgement day. Personally, I think your jealous. De Nile aint just a river in Egypt. Jesus was, is, and always has been God. The truth is the truth whether it glorifies yourself or not.

Vinnie

Praise Jesus!!!

Jesus of Nazareth was not an egomaniacal freak. He was one of the humblest men on earth...he even let a robber go free instead of him.

igwamh: Jesus is more equivalent to a divine Gandhi then a divine David Koresh.

Searcher: Yes, I have accepted Jesus as the son of god. So, technically I am a christian.

Searcher,

You wrote:


You say you weren't crushed to find out that there was a God - but the real question is, would you be crushed to find out that you've been lied to all this time about your God?

Please, let me remind you of something about me which we have discussed before... I don't care for fiction. Hopefully, this helps clear things up a bit. If not...

I believe that I previously answered the question in general by explaining how I have handled such disappointments in the past. To sum up my response, I am usually disappointed at first, however, I accept such imperfections in life, I get over it and I move on with the knowledge which I have gained from the experience.

Believe me, I am not putting you off, Searcher. If you desire a more specific answer then I need more clarification in order to answer your question specifically. What I need to know is this:

- Who is it that you believe has lied to me? And...

- What perspective are you coming from when you say "all this time"? What is your impression of the length of time which I have held my belief in God, the need for repentance and the acceptance of Jesus Christ as my Savior?

You went on to say:


I'm not saying that any of this is the case - I'm just saying, "What if?" Would you rather go on in blissful ignorance, or would you want to know the real truth - even if it blew away everything you "knew for sure"? If I'm not mistaken, that was the whole idea behind this thread, but I don't feel you've really answered this question.

First of all Searcher, if one has "lack of knowledge about a certain truth" then, yes, they are ignorant with respect to that certain truth. However, as someone pointed out in this thread, there are actually many truths. We learn some and we do not learn others during our lifetime. So, to a certain extent, we are all blissfully ignorant.

The main "simple" question was "What would you do if you knew the truth?" and I believe that I have answered that.

There were other subsequent suppositions and examples given by the author of this thread after the main "simple" question was posed. However, I don't think anyone has fully explored every one of those peripheral ideas and questions which were thrown out for us to think about. As usual in this forum, the debate seems to focus on questions with respect to the existence of God and that's just fine with me!

With respect to that, for some reason (and it seems to me to be because I have explained that I know the truth about the existence of God), this aggravates people to no end. Not having had the same experiences that I have had, I realize that this is hard for others to accept, however, they should "know" that it is not impossible... Otherwise, why would they even bother searching? There are people here who claim to be searching for the truth, but when others share their experiences of having found the truth, some of these same, self-proclaimed searchers get all riled up to the point of attempted slamming with derogatory remarks, etc...

These type of reactions seem to substantiate a state of close-mindedness and a steadfast, contemptuous denial of God more than open-mindedness in search for the truth. Please keep in mind that fanatically committed individuals (zealots) can be found in all walks of life, even among non-believers.

Again, I believe that I have thus far answered the original question, in general, based on how I have handled "actual" instances of being mislead or lied to in life. Now, if you need more specific or "special" answers, please provide me with the clarification requested above and I will be happy to continue the discussion in more detail.

Having said that, there are a couple of "what if" questions which I would like to ask you, if you don't mind.

"What if" you were to hear an audible voice which told you where your missing child was... would you be comfortable enough with yourself to trust your senses and act on what you heard (even if it meant being subject to the ridicule of others when you have to explain how you found your child)? Or, would you allow yourself to be limited by the lies (or mistaken belief) of others who have always told you that these types of things just don't happen... and, as a result, would you NOT act because of these externally-imposed limitations?

"What if" you were at a New Year's Eve celebration and a couple at your table had a loud argument which made everyone in your company uncomfortable... and the man left... and you heard everyone else saying that it was over and that they were glad he left... BUT, you heard an audible voice which told you and noone else that the man was going to get a knife... again, are you comfortable enough with yourself to know that you are perfectly capable of discerning real from imagined? Do you trust your senses enough to believe and act upon what you heard by informing others and by being on guard when he returns? Or, would you allow yourself to limited by what others have told you is impossible and/or intimidated by the fear of ridicule?

"What if" you were visited by the soul of a deceased family member who gave you a specific message to deliver to another family member, a message that made absolutely no sense to you... would you trust your senses enough to "know" that the experience was real and deliver the message? Or, would externally-imposed, limited belief systems and fear of ridicule cause you to let the message die with you?

I really don't know what perspective your answers will be coming from because I do not know what your actual experience or lack of experience with (let's call it) "the paranormal" has been... but, I would like to know that, too... What has been your experience with "other than what is considered normal" senses/dimensions and how did you react to these experiences?

FyreStar,

This???
You proceed on the arrogant assumption that you know 'the' truth.

From the one who contradicts themself by stating an ASSUMED absolute truth, with NO BASIS whatsoever, that there is no absolute truth...???!!!

If you consider knowledge of the truth to be arrogance, then, so be it. If you assume an infinite number of truths and assume a position which denies the existence of "the truth" with respect to God, are you not then assuming an infinitely arrogant position? Living life in a state which lacks (or denies) knowledge of the truth or even the possibility of the truth being known with respect to God, in particular, could give some people a TEMPORARY sense of well-being, I guess. Exactly the kind of temporal sense of well-being which makes Satan so proud, I might add. :)

Ah, what the heck... Let me modify that last paragraph... I don't "guess"... I "know" because I've been there, too. :) :) :)

Additionally, FyreStar, God has asked that I share these words of Jesus with you:

"My kingdom does not belong to this world. If my kingdom did belong to this world, my attendants would be fighting to keep me from being handed over to the Jews. But as it is, my kingdom is not here."

"For this I was born and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone who belongs to the truth listens to my voice."


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

Sorry if I offend anyone here... It seems to me that those who proclaim to be in search of the truth also believe that noone has ever found the truth yet... and that it can't be known?
No, Ts...that is not what I think. There is a Spirit of Truth though...and this Spirit of Truth does not seek glory or praise..nor, is the spirit concerned with credit. The Spirit of Truth is concerned with people finding Truth. Upon learning truth we will advance.

We have a hard time accepting that there is one more knowledgeable and more powerful than us... One who "knows" all and can do all. Again, Jesus does not "think" things to be true or not true, Jesus "knows" things to be true or not true. God loves us more than we can imagine and came to us in the form of man (Jesus) so that we would know the way to eternal salvation "with God."
I am sorry but I disagree, TS. I do not have a problem with one being more powerful or more knowledgeable..not at all. What I do have a problem with is the deception that Jesus has caused. I have my own reasons for
knowing this to be true.

If you choose not to believe it, then you do so of your own free will and you know the consequences of such a choice.
Yes, behind curtain number two...the prize..
hell, hell, hell. Right? Yeah, right. Hell is a state of mind....not to mention very alive on earth. You can talk of the love of your God and Jesus...but it's false.
If I'm wrong then I'll eat your hat.

Lori -

I'm not sure if this is what you were trying to say in your previous post (I've been gone awhile, just got to read all these posts since my last) - but I want to point out that Witchcraft is not a "new age" religion. It predates Christianity by thousands of years, in many different forms. In fact, a good many Pagan traditions have been incorporated into modern-day "Christian" holidays. Ever wonder where the 'easter bunny' came from? And why exactly was Jesus's birthday moved from the spring to December? What about the "christmas" tree? All of these have roots in ancient pagan customs, and there are many more examples.

I do see that witchcraft has changed over the centuries, so perhaps the argument could be made that modern witchcraft is not the same as ancient witchcraft, so it IS 'new age', but that same argument could be used with Christianity as well. Religions change with the times, as they should.

I do relate to you when you say that every time you have a question, the bible answers it for you. When ever I have a question, I seem to be able to find the answer through meditation, if I am patient enough, and my need is great enough, the Lord & Lady will answer me. I have seen this already in my lifetime, I was just unaware of the source of the information. You speak of "KNOWING" the truth, well, I "KNOW" the Lord & Lady exist just as surely as you KNOW God and Jesus exist(ed). Your truth is as valid for you as my truth is valid for me.

Please don't equate my faith to satanism. It is not, absolutely, undoubtably not. Indeed, my faith existed prior to mankind's meeting with your fallen angel. The Christian Satan has no place in my framework, and if he does exist, there is no plate at my table for him to dine at. I speak to the Lord and Lady in the spirit of love and generosity. Satan would find me a tough convert, his favorite emotions of hate and jealousy have lost their power over me. I find strength inside me and use it to combat those emotions, and ask the power to fill me up again when I am spent.

Not that I am not above emotional outbursts, I have a bad temper that I struggle with! Ask anyone! Heh, heh. But a bad temper can be controlled, it is not an excuse I use to run around acting like an a$$hole.

Again, Lori, I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but surely you don't equate Witchcraft to a sugar pill?? It is the ultimate responsibility. I control my life, and I have none to blame for what goes wrong in it. If I cause harm in the world, I can't just say I'm sorry and get off the hook. I have nobody dying to make my life easier (there is no Jesus in my framework). It is responsibility to use the knowledge and power I might gain to only better myself and those I may effect. I may not use it against another without their permission, even a simple healing spell is forbidden without assent from the targeted person. It is the ultimate self-help tool. It is the innate power that each of us posseses. YOU have the same power, and I bet you use it without even thinking about it. Ever try to "think yourself well"? That's the core of witchcraft.

truestory -
Eh?!? :)
I don't know where you think I stated an absolute truth. I merely posted my opinion on 'the' truth. My reasoning? 1+1 = 2. That is a truth. 2+2 = 4. That is also a truth. That makes two truths so far. Therefore there is no single, all encompassing truth. Please point out where I am 'contrdicting' myself.

Next, I'm really getting tired of people like you and Lori twisting the wording of my posts. Really, if you can't debate fairly, you must have weak case. You know damn well I wasn't saying that knowledge and truth are arrogance. I was saying that taking an un-quantifiable belief and touting it as supreme truth is arrogant. Also, I never denied the existance of a god, so don't put words in my mouth. However, saying there is a god just to make yourself feel better isn't soothsaying. Somebody watching a David Copperfield act could 'know' he made the Statue of Liberty disappear, but that doesn't mean he actually did. Human minds are fallible and foolable, especially by themselves.

As an aside, how exactly would not believing in a god give a greater sense of well being than believing in one??? Lets see.. on one hand, final death, questionable reasons for living, and no 'higher power' to protect you.. on the other; a sheltering hand, surety in an afterlife, and foreknowledge of eternal bliss. Hmmmmmmm...

On a final thought.. next time, tell 'God' to tell me himself. 'He' would find me most receptive.

FyreStar

SkyeBlue,

In your message to Lori, you wrote:


Again, Lori, I'm not sure if this was directed towards me or not, but surely you don't equate Witchcraft to a sugar pill?? It is the ultimate responsibility. I control my life, and I have none to blame for what goes wrong in it. If I cause harm in the world, I can't just say I'm sorry and get off the hook. I have nobody dying to make my life easier (there is no Jesus in my framework).

This is my feeling exactly! To me, there's something very suspicious about a religion whose core requirement for getting into heaven is that you must acknowledge spiritual insolvency - that is, you cannot or will not pay your own karmic debts, so someone else must pay them for you - with his life! One thing I've learned in this life - there ain't no such thing as a free lunch!

By the way, did you get my email I sent you yesterday? Just wondering...

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

Truestory,

Yes, I have had my share of paranormal experiences, and when I get one of those warnings, I do my best to heed it. It has kept me out of trouble many times in my life. The problem in my case is that they aren't audible, making it very difficult for me to distinguish them from my own thoughts, so I may be a bit slower to respond than you. If I ever received audible messages about my safety or the safety of others, I would certainly pay attention and respond as directed, until I found a reason not to (e.g., if those giving me the audible messages turned out to be lying to me most of the time and my reactions to those messages caused me more harm than good). That doesn't mean that I would fall for everything I was told by this same voice, hook, line and sinker. I would certainly consider that I might have been set up for those experiences just to make me trust "them", whoever "they" might be (I am really not a very trusting person, in case you hadn't figured that out by now).

Truestory, I noticed that you didn't comment on the scripture I quoted to you which stated that no man has seen God at any time (John 1:18). Do you feel this verse doesn't apply to you because you are a woman? Or maybe for some other reason? I'm very curious about this, since this scripture directly contradicts your conclusions regarding your experience.

------------------
www.indigenousrocks.com (http://www.indigenousrocks.com)

SkyeBlue-I know it's ben awhile since you posted your experiences, but I've been busy. I agree with your hesitance to say "one nation under God" during our Pledge of Allegiance. I, too, would skip that part. I still do. Here's the nifty thing, though. My dad's uncle passed away and left us a lot of his personal effects. Among them was a copy of the Pledge of Allegiance that he got when he became a citizen of the United States back before World War Two. This document is dated for 1936, and as I read it I saw that the phrase "under God" does not exist. I found out from some local old-timers that nobody said "under God" until the mid fifties, when everybody was trying to be true-blue Americans (and non-Christians were automatically suspect by the HUAC). In it's proper phrasing, before the Cold War, here is the Pledge of Allegiance:
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
There is absolutely no harm in saying "one nation under God" if you want to. The harm is when you force others to say it. How thoughtful of the person who wrote the Pledge of Allegiance to realize that we weren't all believers in gods.

Hello Flash and thanks for responding. I must admit, though, that I am a bit confused as to why you would respond in the way that you did to the following:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry if I offend anyone here... It seems to me that those who proclaim to be in search of the truth also believe that noone has ever found the truth yet... and that it can't be known?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


No, Ts...that is not what I think. There is a Spirit of Truth though...and this Spirit of Truth does not seek glory or praise..nor, is the spirit concerned with credit. The Spirit of Truth is concerned with people finding Truth. Upon learning truth we will advance.

The reason I am a bit confused is because my above remarks were to those who still claimed to be "searching"... I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, I thought you had stated a while back that you had "found" the truth...? I also believe that, at that time, I asked if you could bring yourself to share what you had learned with us. Sorry if I missed it.... But... In order to know the Spirit of Truth, which I believe is much more complex than the simple truth, one would most assuredly need to know the truth. So, could you please clarify? Do you believe that you have found the truth? If so, what is it and how has it affected your life?

I am also not clear about and, therefore, cannot really discuss the comments which you made to the following:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
We have a hard time accepting that there is one more knowledgeable and more powerful than us... One who "knows" all and can do all. Again, Jesus does not "think" things to be true or not true, Jesus "knows" things to be true or not true. God loves us more than we can imagine and came to us in the form of man (Jesus) so that we would know the way to eternal salvation "with God."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am sorry but I disagree, TS. I do not have a problem with one being more powerful or more knowledgeable..not at all. What I do have a problem with is the deception that Jesus has caused. I have my own reasons for
knowing this to be true.

In the interest of sharing in an open and honest discussion, Flash, I would really like to know the reasons why you believe this to be true.

Again, I'm a bit confused as to how you came to the conclusions that you did, as follows:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you choose not to believe it, then you do so of your own free will and you know the consequences of such a choice.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, behind curtain number two...the prize..
hell, hell, hell. Right? Yeah, right. Hell is a state of mind....not to mention very alive on earth. You can talk of the love of your God and Jesus...but it's false.
If I'm wrong then I'll eat your hat.

If you believe that hell exists, than why would it matter to you what form it takes? And what causes you to state that the love of God and Jesus is false?

Although I firmly believe that there is nothing "wrong" with being wrong, misunderstanding or being mislead about something, your last statement gave me a bit of a chuckle because... I don't own a hat. :)


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

FyreStar,

For now, I would like to focus on what I consider to be the MOST important aspect of your response, which is:


On a final thought.. next time, tell 'God' to tell me himself. 'He' would find me most receptive.

First, I must tell you that I did not solicit those instructions from God yesterday, nor did I know what the message would be until I opened the Bible to immediately find the message which God wanted you to receive. As a matter of fact, FyreStar, I am not that familiar with the Bible to even be able to inform you as to where to find the words today.

Second, as one who has been asked by God to spread the word, I do not question God's delivery methods and would not be so arrogant or irreverent as to "tell" God what to do. However...

Finally, I would be happy to inform God that you are open and receptive to direct communication, only IF what you say is "the truth" in your spirit, your heart and your mind... Please let me know.



[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 13, 1999).]

TS,

The reason I am a bit confused is because my above remarks were to those who still claimed to be "searching"... I could be wrong, but if I remember correctly, I thought you had stated a while back that you had "found" the truth...? I also believe that, at that time, I asked if you could bring yourself to share what you had learned with us. Sorry if I missed it.... But... In order to know the Spirit of Truth, which I believe is much more complex than the simple truth, one would most assuredly need to know the truth. So, could you please clarify? Do you believe that you have found the truth? If so, what is it and how has it affected your life?
Sorry TS, I did not mean to confuse you. Let me back track...you are correct in that I did state I found truth..the Spirit of Truth. The Spirit of Truth is of course THE source...but, there is so much to truth...it goes on and on...
At this time I am sorry to say...to elaborate on the truth that has been taught to me at this time ...I am not ready to spit it out yet on this bb. But yes, I have found the Spirit of Truth. It has affected my life in that there has been many things shown to me ...things that I need to work on double time...it has opened my eyes not only to the things I need to change..but also has revealed many "false truths" that are out there.

I am sorry but I disagree, TS. I do not have a problem with one being more powerful or more knowledgeable..not at all. What I do have a problem with is the deception that Jesus has caused. I have my own reasons for
knowing this to be true.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the interest of sharing in an open and honest discussion, Flash, I would really like to know the reasons why you believe this to be true.

Well, simple..this was shown to me by the Spirit of Truth.


If you believe that hell exists, than why would it matter to you what form it takes? And what causes you to state that the love of God and Jesus is false?

I just do not believe that hell exists in the way you do...with Satan and the demons and stuff. It's not a matter of form...rather it has to do with the "christian view" Do as God says or WHAM!!!!! DOWN BELOW YOU GO!!!! Of course..that's where all the bad good for nothing non-believers go...right?
The reason that I believe the love of God and Jesus is false is a combination of it being taught to me and also in my own personal findings throughout life.


Although I firmly believe that there is nothing "wrong" with being wrong, misunderstanding or being mislead about something, your last statement gave me a bit of a chuckle because... I don't own a hat.

LOL...ok, how about..ummmm your Bible?? :)

truestory -
I do not know how I can convey the depth of my sincerity over the internet. All I have ever wanted in this regard was some form of proof. Truth is foremost.

FyreStar

Searcher!!

Yes, I did just now pull up your email. I have a bad habit of not checking my home email...

I will respond to you when I get home tonight, work email is monitored. :(

Oxygen -

Hey babe! Thanks for the bit of trivia! I wish I would have known that in first grade, it probably would have saved a lot of arguing with my mom! :)

I just didn't feel it, and what's the point in saying it if you're not sincere?? Like forcing an un-aplogetic child to say they're sorry when they obviously don't feel that way. Pointless.

Searcher,

I have no flippin' idea what you are talking about regarding "us people" and this this question. The question is if you knew the truth, what would you do? I think I can speak for the majority of Christians here when I say that the answer to that question is.....that we would tell it! How the bleep is that avoiding the question?

Wait, it just occurred to me...you don't like the fact that we think we have found the truth, right? Well, let's clarify some things. When you speak of truth, you may mean reality as we all see it in our face. When I speak of the truth, I am referring to an ideal which exists, which you never see in your face. I can say that I KNOW that Jesus is the Son of God, beyond that, there are things about the faith that I feel very sure I understand completely. But I am not in any way saying that I understand EVERYTHING, everything about the faith, or everything about anything. That's impossible to accomplish in a lifetime. You can't be human and alive and do that. Actually, I think that's what happens to you when you die. If you go to heaven, you get to see, to understand all that you did not know while alive. In hell, you don't get any smarter than you are now, thus the hell.

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"

[This message has been edited by Lori (edited December 14, 1999).]

Oxygen,

I believe that those who wrote and amended the Pledge of Allegiance, for the most part, came from families whose ancestors had previously fled their mother countries due to religious persecution and they understood the hierarchy of allegiance to God before allegiance to government.

[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]

Searcher,


Thanks for your response. Although our experiences are somewhat different, I am glad to see that you have experienced other senses/dimensions.

It might seem like a lot to those who have never had such experiences but, in reality, my experiences of such have been few and far between. They have always been powerful, accurate and fruitful messages and, of course, I am astounded at first when they happen but thus far, I have never had any reason to truly doubt them. They are usually crisis-induced and come with a sense of urgency, including the message from God.

Had I not acted immediately in the first example, my daughter would probably have been taken over many state lines to a remote area by a would-be kidnapper. This experience happened about thirteen years ago.

Had I not been aware and not acted immediately when the situation presented itself in the second example, a woman would have been stabbed, possibly to her death. This experience happened more than twenty years ago.

Had I not delivered the message in the third example, I have been told by the family member that they would have continued to spend the rest of their life in a state of mental torture. This experienced happened around twenty years ago.

Given God's message, "Spread the Word. IT IS NOT TOO LATE (emphasis added)..." I sense another crisis which is in a relative urgent state and in need of addressing. This experience happened about four years ago.


Truestory, I noticed that you didn't comment on the scripture I quoted to you which stated that no man has seen God at any time (John 1:18). Do you feel this verse doesn't apply to you because you are a woman? Or maybe for some other reason? I'm very curious about this, since this scripture directly contradicts your conclusions regarding your experience.

I'm not sure where you got the impression that John 1:18 contradicts my experience??? Maybe it is just your interpretation...

"No one has ever seen God. The only Son, God, who is at the Father's side, has revealed him."

It is my understanding that John was explaining that no one had ever seen God fully before the coming of Christ. That was the whole purpose of Jesus Christ coming to dwell with us... so that God and the relationship between God and man would be fully revealed to us...

PS: When people in general are referred to as "men" in Bible interpretations, I don't take the meaning to be gender specific.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]

SkyeBlue and Searcher,


If I cause harm in the world, I can't just say I'm sorry and get off the hook. I have nobody dying to make my life easier (there is no Jesus in my framework).

This statement represents a common misconception of those who don't truly understand what being a saved Christian means.

It first involves an act (not words) of repentance and contrition. One cannot just "say" that they are sorry and "get off the hook"... one has to truly be sorry with their heart and their whole being for having behaved offensively in the eyes of God. (Believe me, God knows if one is serious or not). They must despise the bad things which they have done, not only because they fear God's just punishment, but because they are the things which offend GOD who deserves all of our love for the gifts of life, love, free-will and salvation which God has given us.

One must then make a firm resolution, in the eyes of God, to do what is right from now on... With the full realization of the nature of man and the impossibility of being able to fully accomplish such a task, one must then accept Jesus Christ into their life to help them along the rest of life's journey... to help them to resist temptation in the future... to accept Jesus as their savior... Jesus Christ, the One who was sent to deliver us from evil.

Once one has done this and continues to live their life, in the grace of Jesus Christ, life here on earth will not necessarily get easier, but having Jesus in one's life will help keep one on the right path when challenged in the future... being human, someone who is saved might allow themselves to temporarily fall from the grace of Jesus Christ and they might waver at times... they will have to suffer temporarily with punishment for their wrong-doing... However, when the time comes, the sins of those who walked with Jesus in their hearts will be totally forgiven by virtue of Jesus' ultimate sacrifice for them and they will enter into the kingdom of heaven and walk eternally with God.


[This message has been edited by truestory (edited December 14, 1999).]

Truestory,

But isn't the United States made up of a mix of people from different cultures and religeous beliefs? So doesn't pledging allegiance to just one God, and excluding and disregarding the beliefs of others partition your society? How long will it take for the Western Christians to be out numbered? What do you think will happen to the pledge of allegiance when Muslims are a majority?

True'-

You make a good argument! I wonder what you are meaing when you say that they will "suffer temporarily" - you mean karma? Or are you calling seperation from Jesus suffering?

That still doesn't address my query to Lori though - Lori, you haven't said anything, so I'll repeat; surely you don't equate witchcraft to a sugar pill??

The way I see it, whether you call it 'being saved' or whatever, I think we're getting at the same kinds of things, just taking a different path to get there. You may use Jesus's love as an inspiration to do good, or you may use nature's inclination towards balance to realize that doing good inspires others to do good which ultimately benefits you - what's the difference in day-to-day life? If you're a good person, you're a good person, whether you follow Jesus, Allah, Amon-Ra, Buddah, or the Green Mother. Or are an atheist or agnostic, for that matter.

I have nothing against the core beliefs of Christianity, I know it doesn't sound that way, but I really don't. I have a problem with a lot of CHRISTIANS and the bible's teachings, but not the faith itself. I believe in an overwhelming life force that manifests itself to each person differently. You see God, I see a Lord and Lady. Someone else sees water sprites, another sees angels. So what?? Is one any more or less valid than another? To each their own! I would not try to stop you from loving your God, from loving your messiah. Why do Christians persist in trying to stop others from folowing their hearts? If it's not Christianity, it must be wrong is the attitude I come accross over and over and over. Most organized religions seem to have have that trait, actually, but in my life it's been the Christians that have gotten nasty about it. I keep gettin told that those people aren't "real" Christians, but the bible is a load of bigotry that is spoon fed to these people to make them this way. Tab's comments about how mysogenistic the bible is - great example of what I'm talking about.

I don't LIKE your God, as he is portrayed. "Do as I say, or I'll smite your smart-a$$. Oh, eat my apples, will you?? I'll go ahead and punish you for eternity for it. Whoops, getting too tough, how about I sacrifice someone, I know, I'll impregnate a virgin, that sounds fair. Oh, and I know, I'll teach my children they're WAAAAY better than everyone else, that way the non-believers might be pressured, brainwashed or threatened into fearing my wrath! Yeah, yeah, that's rich! Ah, crap, one of my angels went awry, but I won't stop him, that'll just help scare them into following my rules all the more! A little fire here, a little brimstone there, a little inbreeding.... There we go! Perfect! Just the way I wanted it! But, I won't take the blame myself, I'll make sure everyone knows they're evil and wicked right from birth. That way, they'll blame themselves and not me. OH! And I'll make them come and beg me to be saved! Yes!!"

That might be a bit overboard, but really, doesn't that bug you Christians that your God is so fickle and unable to control his own emotions? And the whole Satan thing - please! A fallen Angel, but God doesn't bother to lift a finger to stop him. I'm sorry, but my brain just doesn't work that way.

I think the Christian God does exist, but as I have said before, I don't think he is the way he is portrayed in the bible and such. I think that as a symbol of love, a symbol of goodness and grace and forgiveness, he is a great model. But I seriously doubt most of the bible's teachings. I just don't buy it. I think he is just another aspect of the life-force, the All that has existed eternally, as far back as what we call reality goes.

Sky, yes I do think that witchcraft is a sugar pill. I'm at work, and I dont' really have time to go into depth about anything while I'm here, so I just get on for some one-liners during the day, and save the meaty stuff for at home. Your answer's coming, just give me some time. :)

------------------
"ET phone home!"
"Uh, hello Satan?"
"Hey, your plan worked great! They all think I'm cute!"