Is a lack of belief for an atheist a done deal or is there a possibility of believing in God? What will it take, fellow atheists, to make you believers?Is Pascals' belief that even if there's a billion to one chance of God existing, one would be wise to believe because the payoff would be so great?

I find Pascals' argument very persuasive although I'm reluctant to participate in a ritualistic, dogmatic ,controlling religious organization.

sorry, but the payoff is nothing great, nothing worth making your life controlled, submissive, and confined. heaven is eternal boredom, what is so great about that? we only get one life, one chance, i'm making the most of it, through the beliefs that i've gained and am going to gain i will be a better person for it. i won't start wars, i'll defend my life and others vigourously and all the time it's going to be on my grounds, no-one will have told me what to believe and to me, nothing could make me give that up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by atheroy
[B] i won't start wars,

That's an interesting declaration. Does being an atheist tend to make one a pacifist? Is the fear of dying without hope in an afterlife tend to make one carefully chose his fights? Does religion promote war indirectly by promising an afterlife?Alot to think about.

Is the fear of dying without hope in an afterlife tend to make one carefully chose his fights?
IMHO people believe in god because they fear death. Most people don't have a choice in when or how they die so why fear it, I think history would show death is usually quick?
Who do you mean when you say "choose his fights"?
What sort of fight? How does fighting relate to belief?
What will it take for an atheist to believe in God?
What will it take for a believer to become an atheist?
Probably nothing, so what would you expect of an atheist?
I find Pascals' argument very persuasive...
Why? Because you percieve a billion to be large? I think better odds would be sum(energy of universe) to one? Which isn't very persuasive to me:)

Personally, I don't believe in anything supernatural. So basically, in order to get me to believe in God, you would have to show that he is not supernatural and therefore not God. ;)

Originally posted by Greco
[QUOTE]Originally posted by atheroy
[B] Does religion promote war indirectly by promising an afterlife?Alot to think about.

Religion promotes war directly by telling people to kill for their God, or to slay members of other religions.

All it would take for most Athiests to believe in God is conclusive evidence.

A scientific mind only offers provisional agreement with an idea after enough evidence has been gathered, such that so many things point to only one satisfying conclusion for a phenomina, that it would be reasonable to give provisional greement to the explanation. This hasn't happend yet with God. Also, once it's proven that a diety figure exists, it'll take still more convinsing for many people to accept why they should believe in his particular laws, or why they should worship him.

A couple short notes:

Afterlife/wars: Yes. By combining the supremacist notion with the ultimate currency (eternity) one concocts a deadly potion.

Pascal's Wager: The wager plays on cowardice. It asks you to forsake the opportunity to attain knowledge in exchange for the comfort of an unprovable superstitious assertion. Don't bite that apple; the fruit is bitter.

:m:,
Tiassa :cool:

When does disbelief gives you more knowledge? Doesn't that imply lack of knowledge?

Does religion promote war indirectly by promising an afterlife?Alot to think about.

I would say, that from reading all I have read on this board and others, and from knowledge of how things work today, religion not only promoted war, but was invented specifically for it. Obviously, some of the messages in most religions don't tell people to go out and murder, but read all of the examples these texts give you.

Islam--I believe that's the one--promises a thousand virgins in the afterlife, or something to that effect. Vikings had Valhalla, which beared a striking resemblance, i.e. a strong, male-oriented heaven. The Christians have eternal life, and Judaism promises a savior who free the world of it's evil (or something like that.) While they all leave the believer unafraid of death, they also leave them open to manipulation.

Islam, for example. What teenage boy doesn't dream of a place with a thousand women who are willing to touch you were your bathing suit covers? :D

All of these peoples were exploring, conquering peoples, and they created the carrot-on-a-stick method; they held out this promise of enternal life, or a thousand virgins, or an enternal strip club, in exchange for spreading the word of this "God." If that meant invading a nation, then so be it. After all, the king made himself some major cash and some more land, and the people now had something to look forward to.

When does disbelief gives you more knowledge? Doesn't that imply lack of knowledge?

You're really reaching on this one. Actually, I shouldn't say that, because I think you're trying to make a backhanded comment about disbelief in your god, not disbelief in general. Real clever, Jethro.

Disbelief doesn't inheretly imply a lack of knowledge. You know that. I don't believe in the Easter Bunny. Does that mean I lack knowledge of the situation? No. It means the opposite.

For me to believe in god, you would need to show me some proof. And I don't need anyone to prove the supernatural, because I for one believe in the supernatural. I've seen ghosts, but that does not prove the existance of God. I've seen the natural, too, but that doesn't prove the existance of the flying, purple Llama. I want to see a miracle. I want to talk to God. I want, as the people in the Bible said, have God walk physically before me, in full God Gear, and tell me something. Is that too much to ask? Some of the people who believed in God in the Bible actually saw him, they didn't go on an ancient book.

Until then, anyone who says they believe are guessing, nothing more. And doing so blindly, becuase there is nothing to say there is a god, save one lousy book with mistranslations.

JD

Originally posted by Greco
I find Pascals' argument very persuasive ... How so? It presumes a vindictive Deity that honors opportunism over intellectual honesty.

You're really reaching on this one. Actually, I shouldn't say that, because I think you're trying to make a backhanded comment about disbelief in your god, not disbelief in general. Real clever, Jethro.

I'm not reaching out. Disbelief has never gained anyone knowledge. In fact, it stops people from investigating. Also your view of the supernatural is different from mine. You say you saw ghosts, where I would probably say demons. Faith is really in how you see things.

Originally posted by JDawg
... there is nothing to say there is a god, save one lousy book with mistranslations. Just out of curiosity, to which specific "mistranslations" are you referring, what are the correct translations, and where is the vorlage from which those translations were made?

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
How so? It presumes a vindictive Deity that honors opportunism over intellectual honesty.

Isn't that what we do when we play the lottery. Dont we betray our intellectual honesty by wagering in a 40 million to 1 chance of winning? But, we do play using Pascals' reasoning, if the wager is insignificant (1 dollar) and the payoff is large(millions of dollars) then it follows to wager just a tiny bit of ones energy for a return of a fortune , no matter how unlikely the odds of winning.

If you dont play the lottery, you can not win. If you play the lottery you can win even when the odds are overwhelming.

It's greed over intellectual honesty as you said.

Originally posted by Greco
It's greed over intellectual honesty as you said. Or worse. I wager that God(s) would be more likely to respect intellectual honest than greed. You take the other side of the bet, and then assert that your position is "very persuasive". So, persuade me that God is more likely to punish me for my honesty and reward you for your intellectual maneuver.

Originally posted by atheroy
sorry, but the payoff is nothing great, nothing worth making your life controlled, submissive, and confined.

Why does "believing" in God, make life, controlled, submissive and confined?

Love

Jan Ardena.

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Or worse. I wager that God(s) would be more likely to respect intellectual honest than greed. You take the other side of the bet, and then assert that your position is "very persuasive". So, persuade me that God is more likely to punish me for my honesty and reward you for your intellectual maneuver.

Depends how one looks at God. Why cant God be greedy and reward like minded men, after all he demands our devotion to him and to no one else(remember, he created us in his image). Maybe the "test" of a believer is to overcome his intellectual honesty and succumb to greed.

I cant believe I'm making a case for a greedy God.

which god?

What will it take for an atheist to believe in God? Credible evidence.

WHERE IS MY POST??????!!!!!!

PLUS I HAVE NO AVATAR, AND I SENT MY MONEY!! :mad: *PISSED OFF**

Cris quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What will it take for an atheist to believe in God?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Credible evidence

Right!! Because there is so much corroboration, for our universe's existence without any type of higher being.....

When atheists can show me how and why are universe, or any other universe before it was created without any higher being or superconciousness, THEN I will join the club. But until then I think a God will suffice....

ChrisCunningham

So, who was it exactly that showed you how and why God created the universe?

Originally posted by Jan Ardena
Why does "believing" in God, make life, controlled, submissive and confined?


i dunno about you but i dont like being told, what i can and cant do, and what i will or will not be damned for...

Chris,

When atheists can show me how and why are universe, or any other universe before it was created without any higher being or superconciousness, THEN I will join the club. But until then I think a God will suffice....Why do you assume the universe was created? Why must a higher being be involved? What is the relevance of super consciousness? There is no evidence to show that anything complex was created by higher beings or intelligent beings, whether low-level consciousness or super consciousness. All we know is that things evolve.

But we know the universe exists so why conclude that at one time it didn’t? What’s your evidence that supports a belief that a god created it?

Originally posted by CHRISCUNNINGHAM
When atheists can show me how and why are universe, or any other universe before it was created without any higher being or superconciousness, THEN I will join the club You presume an overly lenient admissions policy. ;)

Originally posted by Greco
Is a lack of belief for an atheist a done deal or is there a possibility of believing in God? What will it take, fellow atheists, to make you believers?Is Pascals' belief that even if there's a billion to one chance of God existing, one would be wise to believe because the payoff would be so great?

I find Pascals' argument very persuasive although I'm reluctant to participate in a ritualistic, dogmatic ,controlling religious organization.

______


Here's a good rule to follow:


Proportion your belief according to the evidence.

Which means, if someone asks you to accept a man who talked to invisible demons as your Savior, make an intelligent estimate of how much evidence there is to support the possibility that such a man could actually save you from anything.

Since there is no evidence that jesus ever saved anyone from anything, much less gave them eternal life, your belief in Jesus should be close to 0.000000001%. After all, no one gets an afterlife until the son of Man appears in the clouds and raises up those who are under the earth. So there's no possibility of any evidence that it could happen.

Same thought for God.

Of course, you could invent evidence that doesn't exist and say, "How would you react?" But that doesn't change the fact that such evidence does not actually exist, and your question is only hypothetical,

And not very interesting, either. Sounds more like the opening gambit of a really tiresome con game.

to Jan Ardena

Why does "believing" in God, make life, controlled, submissive and confined?
what the dr. said above, but also, how many people before us have lived exactly the same life with exactly the same beliefs? many, many people. it relates to my idea that we are going no-where fast with the world because people are stuck in the same rut of conformative thinking that people were subjected to hundreds of years ago. i see christian people and i see the same type of confined thought in all of them. they can't roam outside their normal thoughts because in the end it comes down to god and if they do then it is blasphemy and they won't do it. myself, from personal experience (great english aye?) am able to go all over the place, think of any aspect to any idea and create my own pathways of thought as well as create something as simple as my own morals. show me that freedom in religious thought- there is none. if we want to cruise forwrd into the next millenia, we need this unconfined and unrestricted thought, especially since the doctrine of thought taught in churches is for an already out-dated society. we live in the 21st century, most people are stuck in the 16th.

But the concept of God may indeed be evil, or at least it resonates with the evil in each of us.

The concept of God is not in itself evil, it's forcing one's interpretation of God onto others that's the problem.

When atheists can show me how and why are universe, or any other universe before it was created without any higher being or superconciousness, THEN I will join the club. But until then I think a God will suffice....

When theists can explain to me why their god would create thousands of lifeless planets, useless gasballs, and empty black holes, maybe I will join their club.

It is quite possible for the universe to have been created without some mumbo-jumbo intelligent life form. Evolution (which has been observed). A combination of chemicals to form life (has ALMOST been replicated in an experiment. Small globes of chemicals have been made that can reproduce. But not life.)
The Big Bang occurred. The universe is expanding.

What would it take to convince me of a god? Evidence. Not anecdotes of personal experience. But a controlled experiment.

Here is my controlled experiment...

1. Go and find 10 believers in God.
2. Go and find 10 atheists.
3. Have each one of them drink poison.
4. Repeat the experiment to confirm results.

Hypothesis: God will protect its/his/her followers. The atheists should all die, and the theists should survive with no ill effects.

Conclusion: No believer has ever tried this controlled experiment, so I conclude that they have no faith in their God, or God doesn't exist.


Why does "believing" in God, make life, controlled, submissive and confined?


1. Doing whatever 'God' tells you to do, because you are afraid of divine retribution.
2. Having blind faith, and not having a mind open enough to search and examine evidence.
3. Not bothering to consider alternatives.
4. Not deciding upon your own morale 'code', but instead steal a ready-made one out of a 2000 year old book that was written by barbarians.
5. Scuttling off to church every Sunday because God might be mad if you don't.
6. Praying because God might get angry if you don't.
7. Hating someone or something because the Bible (or a scripture) tells you to. Or making a decision based on a scripture.

It is quite possible for the universe to have been created without some mumbo-jumbo intelligent life form. Evolution (which has been observed). A combination of chemicals to form life (has ALMOST been replicated in an experiment. Small globes of chemicals have been made that can reproduce. But not life.)
The Big Bang occurred. The universe is expanding.

The big bang theory does not not answer really why the "bang" occurred. There is little evidence for it apart from the universe expanding. And so what. Jesus said that the kingdom of God was like a mulberry seed. On the other hand, evolution has been observed. Well even the bible observed it with "like father like son". Conjecturing on the odds of the formation of life is premature considering that we have not even created a single cell under controled conditions.


1. Doing whatever 'God' tells you to do, because you are afraid of divine retribution.

No. Everything must done through love.


2. Having blind faith, and not having a mind open enough to search and examine evidence.

Faith is not blind but is within.


3. Not bothering to consider alternatives.

There are no alternatives. I have examined everything. Your position is useless. What little joy you have is with the intellectual pride of calling yourself an atheist.


4. Not deciding upon your own morale 'code', but instead steal a
ready-made one out of a 2000 year old book that was written by barbarians.

My moral code is based totaly and completely on,
Love your God with all your heart, mind and soul.
Love each other as I have loved you.


5. Scuttling off to church every Sunday because God might be mad if you don't.

I go to church to learn about God and to partake in the Eucharist.


6. Praying because God might get angry if you don't.

We pray in order to be one with God.


7. Hating someone or something because the Bible (or a scripture) tells you to. Or making a decision based on a scripture.

Scripture tells us not to hate.

Why do you assume the universe was created? Why must a higher being be involved? What is the relevance of super consciousness? There is no evidence to show that anything complex was created by higher beings or intelligent beings, whether low-level consciousness or super consciousness. All we know is that things evolve.

Hmm....uhh...because the universe has been in existence for a finite amount of time, shown by the Big Bang theory, or maybe because if the universe always existed it couldn't possibly follow the second law of thermodynamics, because its energy supply would have been depleted by now....

What caused the big bang?

How was our universe thrown into a perpetual state of expansion???

One can ask, what caused God?

Well that is simply answered, there is no cause for God, because there is no need to be, whereas something "exploding" implies a cause for this explosion(an object at rest stay at rest until acted upon by an external force). An infinitely dense ball of matter that existed BEFORE anything existed also seems a bit illogical. The very fact that one could even wonder what our universe looks like from the outside implies that there is some absolute frame of reference. The fact that what is inifinity to one can be finite quantity to another implies that there is an absolute frame of reference. The fact that existence itself is a seperate entity from time implies that there is an absolute frame of reference.

The very fact that the Big Bang is one of the silliest things I have ever heard yet is supposed to explain the origin of our universe is what makes me a believer. You have nothing to lean back on, aboslutely nothing. You have no reason for your existence. Whether or not purpose is a even a real premise is something I am still debating, but I know one thing and one thing alone...I will believe that there is something that created an infintely dense ball of matter that exploded "spontaneously" in a vast realm of absolute nothingness and created time a finite time ago before I believe that an infinitely dense ball of matter simply exploded for no reason, contained all the matter in the universe and is expanding into nothingness for no reason, and though it created time and it exploded a finite time ago its always existed...

Logic is the basis of our cognitive ability. However logic has one inherent flaw....the given absolute. In order for one to ever use logic he must first state a premise that has no proof, no corroboration, and no purpose other than a conveniet method of proving what one wants to prove. This flaw consequently makes Logic illogical by its own standards. However this flaw is equally and paradoxically what makes logic "logical".

Not making too much sense.....think about it a bit.....

The big bang theory does not not answer really why the "bang" occurred.

There is no 'reason'. It just occurred. Just because something exists does not mean it has a cause. That is deluded and illogical thinking.

LOGIC IS NOT A RULE WHICH GOVERNS THE UNIVERSE

Everything that exists has a cause = Not a rule which governs the universe.

If everything that exists has a cause, explain to me the 'reason' for thousands and thousands of lifeless balls of rock floating around in space.


There is little evidence for it apart from the universe expanding.

Utter BS. There is mounds of evidence to support the BB theory.


Conjecturing on the odds of the formation of life is premature considering that we have not even created a single cell under controled conditions.

500 years ago, we could not even create a plane. Does that mean it is impossible?

We have created objects like cells in a laboratory. And one day, you will be forced to eat your words. Scientists will create life. It's inevitable.


Hmm....uhh...because the universe has been in existence for a finite amount of time, shown by the Big Bang theory, or maybe because if the universe always existed it couldn't possibly follow the second law of thermodynamics, because its energy supply would have been depleted by now....

Total BS

A basic LAW of science
ENERGY IS NEITHER CREATED NOR DESTROYED
THIS HAS BEEN PROVEN!


What caused the big bang?

Energy. And energy has always existed, as it is neither created nor destroyed.


The very fact that the Big Bang is one of the silliest things I have ever heard

It sounds reasonable to me.


You have no reason for your existence.

You need to deflate your ego. What makes you believe we have a 'reason' for existing. Maybe the 'reason' is to survive and pass on our genes.


will believe that there is something that created an infintely dense ball of matter that exploded "spontaneously" in a vast realm of absolute nothingness and created time a finite time ago before I believe that an infinitely dense ball of matter simply exploded for no reason, contained all the matter in the universe and is expanding into nothingness for no reason, and though it created time and it exploded a finite time ago its always existed...

Do you have any evidence supporting this theory? Nope. I didn't think so.

500 years ago, we could not even create a plane. Does that mean it is impossible?

We have created objects like cells in a laboratory. And one day, you will be forced to eat your words. Scientists will create life. It's inevitable.

Yes. I know it's possible. "It was then permitted to breathe life into the beast's image, so that the beast's image could speak..."
My point is that you do not know the chances of intelligent life evolving.

I suspect that conditions before and just after the big bang would be so extreme that all modern physics would break down. Also for a while Newton's theory of gravity was considered perfectly correct, however this theory was later disproved.

My point is that you do not know the chances of intelligent life evolving.

Slim. But your chances of winning jackpot in tattslotto are slim. Yet people HAVE won the jackpot.


I suspect that conditions before and just after the big bang would be so extreme that all modern physics would break down.

Provide evidence to support this claim.


Also for a while Newton's theory of gravity was considered perfectly correct, however this theory was later disproved.

Newton's theory was actually quite accurate. Einstein merely improved and added to it.

You have nothing to lean back on, aboslutely nothing. You have no reason for your existence. Whether or not purpose is a even a real premise is something I am still debating

What do you have to lean back on? Where is your proof? Hell, where is your scientific THEORY that says god exists? You don't have one. All you have is this book...

Tell me, which sounds sillier: The Big Bang, in which energy caused this explosion that created our universe.

OR

Intelligent Design, where a supernatural god created an entire universe, yet used only one planet, and created a people which were born only to worship him.

Now, you could draw a parallel between these ideas, with the idea that both energy and god have existed for all time; neither being created or destroyed. But that's where the similarities end. The religious, weak-minded sheep are so insecure that they invent a reason for existance beyond the one followed by every other being in existance on this planet. The strong-minded, realistic, interested, inspecting people have not decied if there is some ultimate purpose to life yet; instead, they've decided to go and look for answers in real life, a place where the religious do not live.

JD

CHRISCUNNINGHAM,

Hmm....uhh...because the universe has been in existence for a finite amount of time, shown by the Big Bang theory, That would be true if the big bang was the beginning of the universe. But we don’t know that, and current research is indicating somewhat strongly that the big bang is most probably just one of a potentially infinite number of big bangs.

See Guth (Professor of physics at MIT) - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/hawking/mysteries/html/guth_1.html

See also Andre Linde’s work.

See also a recent article in Scientific American -
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa006&articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=2

And there are more books, papers and articles that pursue the issue of a universe being much larger than just the big bang.

While it is tempting to conclude that the size and origin of the universe is now determined by the big bang I would remind you of history when man has repeatedly concluded similar findings. E.g. the Earth was the universe and the sun revolved around the Earth or the sun was at the center of the universe, or the Milky Way was the universe, etc. As we extend our range of observation we always see something much larger. We now know there are many galaxies, and these in turn are grouped together into larger structures. So with this history why should we conclude that the big bang is the center or beginning of the universe? History indicates we should be very cautious at making such a premature conclusion. And as science works hard to explain how the big bang formed it is becoming obvious that those first few moments of inflation would have likely given rise to multiple big bangs, e.g. inflationary theory is not a part of big bang theory but that big bang theory is a part of inflationary theory – see Linde/Guth.

So the idea that the universe is finite is not aligned with current state of the art science. However, it is understandable that such a conclusion is convenient for theistic creation stories.

But given the possibility that our big bang may well be just the multiple zillionth big bang in a particular spreading tree of big bangs it doesn’t necessarily mean that the universe did not have a true beginning. While Guth shows that big bangs could be created into an infinite future, he does not make the same projection for an infinite past. Given that perspective there is still some limited hope for theists to claim a creation event.

or maybe because if the universe always existed it couldn't possibly follow the second law of thermodynamics, because its energy supply would have been depleted by now.... This is a popular myth that we have explored many times here. If the universe were just a single big bang then yes entropy would tend to increase, however, if the big bang expands, collapses and explodes again, then entropy would simply be reset to zero each time. This is the cyclic theory of the universe that has not been ruled out but leading edge physics appears to be moving towards the multi-verse theories.

But more importantly it must be remembered that the prediction about a state of ultimate entropy only makes sense within a closed system, but if the universe is infinite, i.e. has no boundaries, then such a conclusion is inapplicable.

One can ask, what caused God? Yes but does the question make sense? We know the universe exists and we could ask what caused it, and even then if it is infinite then there is no answer. But there is nothing that indicates that a god exists so the question ‘what caused God?’ makes an assumption about a pre-existent state that cannot be sustained.

But your issue is even worse since if you answer the question of what caused God you are then led to the question of what caused the cause of God, etc, and this dissolves into an infinite series that can never have an answer.

Well that is simply answered, there is no cause for God, because there is no need to be, whereas something "exploding" implies a cause for this explosion(an object at rest stay at rest until acted upon by an external force). Your whole argument here rests on the big bang being the start of the universe. I hope I have shown above that that perspective is now somewhat very limited and you need to update your views.

The very fact that the Big Bang is one of the silliest things I have ever heard yet is supposed to explain the origin of our universe is what makes me a believer. I’m pretty sure there is nothing in science that claims that the big bang is ‘supposed’ to be the origin of the universe. That seems to be a theist perspective so that they can claim there must be a creator who caused the big bang.

You have nothing to lean back on, aboslutely nothing. You have no reason for your existence. Whether or not purpose is a even a real premise is something I am still debating, I think it is a superb idea if there is no purpose imposed on us since that means we are completely free to choose our own purpose. That single idea make me very happy to be alive and that I am truly free to do as I wish.

but I know one thing and one thing alone...I will believe that there is something that created an infintely dense ball of matter that exploded "spontaneously" in a vast realm of absolute nothingness and created time a finite time ago before I believe that an infinitely dense ball of matter simply exploded for no reason, contained all the matter in the universe and is expanding into nothingness for no reason, and though it created time and it exploded a finite time ago its always existed... Then read Guth and Linde and study current physics before you lock yourself into a very limited and out of date perspective.

Logic is the basis of our cognitive ability. However logic has one inherent flaw....the given absolute. In order for one to ever use logic he must first state a premise that has no proof, no corroboration, and no purpose other than a conveniet method of proving what one wants to prove. This flaw consequently makes Logic illogical by its own standards. However this flaw is equally and paradoxically what makes logic "logical".

Not making too much sense.....think about it a bit.....I think you have logic confused with something else. Your claim for a premise is incorrect. Any valid premise must be based on fact. You cannot prove something with logic unless you have facts no matter how much you want something to be true.

I will believe in a god when the aliens tell me there is one.

Originally posted by mountainhare
.... your chances of winning jackpot in tattslotto are slim. Yet people HAVE won the jackpot.
.

_______

If you look at Jackpots - the State Lottos - and there are a lot of them...


you'll see that someone wins, on the average, every two weeks.

Why would this be?

The people who run the jackpots have studies to show how to get the most people to buy tickets. If the jackpot is small, sales go down. If no one wins, sales go down. So they decide how many possible combinations by saying "Pick 5 out of 33" or "Pick 6 out of 52" or whatever, so that (the # of tickets sold) vs. (the odds of winning) produces a winner, on the average, once every two weeks.

But - the Creationist might ask - Aren't the odds of winning like, 14 million to 1?

Yes. The odds of any particular combo coming up are very high.

But the odds that someone - out of say, 20 million tickets sold - will win are very low. 1 in 5, at most.

Same with evolution. Look at the eye mechanism in different species.

The evolution concept of an "eye" developed two, maybe three times, in all the billions of species that have existed.

Once a species had an "eye" that could pick up movement, their advantage in finding food meant they took over. And so, there was never any need for a second type of eye to develop independently.

The Lotto analogy is cool. It shows there are different ways to quote the "odds of winning" or "the odds of a beneficial mutation occurring" and the Christians are being scammed by ministers and priests who state the question in a rather silly way.

Irrefutable evidence would be a good start.

i have often asked myself this question because i do not believe in god... and here is what i have concluded:

i will not believe there is a god because of what is written in a book. there are many books... i can't go following a religion that says their book is "holy" because every religion seems to do this (i just can't follow 'em all)

i will not believe because of fear that i will not go to heaven and will end up paying for my lack of belief for eternity in hell. this is not right i don't care how you try to fight it.

i will not believe because this world exists and therefore someone had to create it. illogical argument but i'm sure i'll be misquoted some how here.

i will not believe because prophecies from the bible, very very vague prophecies interpreted in many different ways over the last few centuries, have come true. i mean after all, nostradamus, other religious texts, my dreams, and heck even the local psychic on the corner have predicted the future in some vague ways. (i am sure this will be misquoted also)

i WILL BELIEVE, however, under one circumstance. in history (the bible's version) God has come down many times to set things straight, intervene, or has spoken to a human directly (for ex: noah) i would very much believe if god himself were to come down and show himself again.

now i don't mean show himself in a way where a believer would say "see see that proves god exists" like a co-worker of mine once said: "see it's raining! that proves god exists, rain is like a miracle from god because how the heck does something as heavy as water get up to the sky and fall? obviously god is dropping the water" ... uh... yeah that won't work here

i would like to see god himself come down, and speak to us. his creations. give me some proof! and no... rain drops, rainbows, mountains, a blue sky, and the fact that we are here won't work.. heck he could even speak to us all! that would be awesome.. and i don't mean speak to us the way i am sure someone will respond "just listen in your heart you will hear his voice, he is trying to guide you" yada yada yada.

have a great day

"see it's raining! that proves god exists, rain is like a miracle from god because how the heck does something as heavy as water get up to the sky and fall? obviously god is dropping the water"
wow, shit for brains.

i would like to see god himself come down, and speak to us
yeah that would be nice, but it's not going to happen. not because god is testing us or some crap but rather because people like noah are mythical characters, so god never spoke to them. and if you take into account the consistency in which god appears (for some reason his appearances taper off thees last to millienia, why?) and talks to people, it is because the world was supposed to end ages ago so he wasn't required to show up any more. for an end of te world cult it is a very clever one. vague enough to persist to this day.

What will it take for an atheist to believe in God?

I assume you are using the religios definiton of the word
believe (i.e. acceptance without proof). Basically I will never
accept a fairlytale without proof. If 'God' were to show up
on my doorstep just to say hi then I would KNOW (not believe)
'God' exists. Of course if you can prove with empirical fact that
'God' exists then once again I would KNOW 'God' exists.

Extordinary claims require extordinary evidence.

-Dr. Sagan

ps. And no, a self fulfilling "Bible" does not count.