*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity. It makes me wonder, what will Christians do when their faith has been proven to be false? My guess is that, of course, they will be in denial as some already are. How will they cope with their loss of faith? I know how this loss feels. I've experienced it. Will they turn to those of us who have grieved through the loss? I believe the truth is being told, but they haven't accepted it. What will Roman Catholics do? It will be their faith that crumbles first. Will there be another 'reformation' to explain the coming fall of Christianity? Or will the truth about Christianity result in the Jim Jones Worship Kool-Aid Feast?

Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.

:: Cue Leo Volont on how you are wrong (although citing no sources) and that God's power will prevail because that is his plan. ::

hehe :D

Christians have never been one's to accept the facts. Facts and logic are things the Christian church has never been comfortable with. Whenever faced with a situation that they know does not make sense and they are proven wrong, you usually get the same bullshit response on how it is God's plan, or the mystery of God sometimes eludes us, or something stupid like that.

The basic fact is, religion needs blind faith to survive. Once someone is willing to accept that it may not be true and they start objectively looking at the facts, that person rarely stays religious. But I do believe that there are too many ignorant stubborn people in the world that will never give up their faith, no matter how many facts you throw in their face.


"Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains."

Religion is not about facts, it is about philosophy and belief. The very nature of this belief makes it impossible to disprove or prove. What is important is that you believe or don't believe.

Christianity isn't particularly violent or unreasonable. Furthermore, there are many different groups. The three major groups are the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, and the slew of Protestant sects (divided primarily into radical and moderate sects). When you talk about Christianity, you must specifically attribute the information to one of these general groups. With the Protestants it might be further fair to single out specific sects.

The US is not and has never been a Catholic nation, peopled by Catholics. Even with the massive influx of Irish Catholics in the 1890s and current influx of over one million mostly catholic Mexicans a year there have always been more Protestants.

What, if any, are your specific problems with Christianity?

Karmashock: Religion is not about facts, it is about philosophy and belief. The very nature of this belief makes it impossible to disprove or prove. What is important is that you believe or don't believe.
*************
M*W: Welcome, Karmashock. I believe you have said it all, "Religion is not about facts."
*************
Karmashock: Christianity isn't particularly violent or unreasonable.
*************
M*W: Christianity is the bloodiest religion that ever set foot on this planet.
*************
Karmashock: Furthermore, there are many different groups. The three major groups are the Roman Catholic, the Eastern Orthodox, and the slew of Protestant sects (divided primarily into radical and moderate sects).
*************
M*W: That in itself shows that the religion of Christianity is a confusing theory at best.
*************
Karmashock: When you talk about Christianity, you must specifically attribute the information to one of these general groups. With the Protestants it might be further fair to single out specific sects.
*************
M*W: The very foundation of Christianity is based on lies and fairy tales.
*************
Karmashock: The US is not and has never been a Catholic nation, peopled by Catholics. Even with the massive influx of Irish Catholics in the 1890s and current influx of over one million mostly catholic Mexicans a year there have always been more Protestants.
*************
M*W: Get your facts straight. The "massive influx of Irish Catholics" occurred in the 1850s during the potato famine. The Italians and Slavs came during the 1890s.
*************
Karmashock: What, if any, are your specific problems with Christianity?
*************
M*W: For starters, Paul, the most prolific liar on Planet Earth.
Then, the "virgin" birth. The "star" of David. (Did you know that David was also a fictional character?). The "missing" years of Jesus. How could a prophet at Jesus's level have "missing" years? Oh, and if Jesus was a real human being, he was married to Mary Magdalen. Jesus, himself, was probably just a simple Rabbi, but MM was the enlightened one who taught Jesus. The crucifixion never happened, and neither did the "resurrection." It makes for an interesting sci-fi read, but there were some 25 dying demigod saviors who came along before Jesus. Surely, you don't believe in this crap?

When they had a poll herer a while back skin what people believed in, the largest line was athiests, by far

s your quesy about where do Christians 'go'..i feel is fairly obvious...they throw out all the christian faith in superstition and embrace science and facts. over and over again i get this vibe from athiests. not just at this forum, but even forums where the people there are very familiar with hallucinogens, and even one's whove taken them and have left their faith embrace physicalist theories ala science

As i kep exploring about.....what i am interested about is this giving up of supersitious beliefs in sky daddies, and devils, and the goats and the sheep, repsectively the damned and the saved, and ressurection from the grave etcetera. yet then many cling to science as THE truth. it is this that disturbs me. cause it is the classic throwing the baby out with the bathwater. the athiests i am used to dealing with will have nutin to do with spiritual-talk. for now all that is 'merely chemicals'

M*W: Welcome, Karmashock. I believe you have said it all, "Religion is not about facts."
It doesn't pretend to be. Is freedom a fact? Is love a fact?

A belief system doesn't have to have any facts for it to work or be good.

M*W: Christianity is the bloodiest religion that ever set foot on this planet.
The only religious wars you can attach to it are the crusades... and those would have likely happened anyway. Europe had a huge population boom. Any warlord would use that to get wealth and solve population crowding.
Why do you think it is a violent religion?

M*W: That in itself shows that the religion of Christianity is a confusing theory at best.
Why is confusing bad? Furthermore, you can only belong to one group. So it isn't confusing for the people that practice it. It's only hard for someone else to understand them all.

Why is it their responsibility to simplify themselves for others to understand?


M*W: The very foundation of Christianity is based on lies and fairy tales.
What does this have to do with the varying groups? Are not all religions based on 'lies' according to you? Why single out Christians?

Further, if you're to make war on all faith, then what will you put in its place? Societies need faith to sustain cultural cohesion. It doesn't have to be religious faith... but faith in something.

Faith is always an improvable assumption.


M*W: Get your facts straight. The "massive influx of Irish Catholics" occurred in the 1850s during the potato famine. The Italians and Slavs came during the 1890s.
First, I know my history... I cite 1890 because it was the end of that major influx... it's also when some of my Irish family came to the US.

I don't see your point anyway. The US is not a catholic nation and yet you keep bringing up the Vatican like that means something to protestants. It does not.

M*W: For starters, Paul, the most prolific liar on Planet Earth.
Then, the "virgin" birth. The "star" of David. (Did you know that David was also a fictional character?). The "missing" years of Jesus. How could a prophet at Jesus's level have "missing" years? Oh, and if Jesus was a real human being, he was married to Mary Magdalen. Jesus, himself, was probably just a simple Rabbi, but MM was the enlightened one who taught Jesus. The crucifixion never happened, and neither did the "resurrection." It makes for an interesting sci-fi read, but there were some 25 dying demigod saviors who came along before Jesus. Surely, you don't believe in this crap?
All religions have such stories... I don't get the specific issue with Christianity?

The Native Americans had many such faith systems that talked of spirits and such... were these evil belief systems?

I don't understand what seems like blind hatred to me... you seem very upset... and specifically upset with Christianity. It seems illogical.

The only explanation is if you believed in a faith system that said that Christianity was evil. There are only two that I know of like that... radical atheism and radial Islam.

Do you belong to either of those very general groups?

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a christian

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war of such hideous ferocity, and skin melting bloodshed the world has ever 'seen'...'seen' in comma cause we aren't ALLOWEd to see the true horror. reasons being they want to use propaganda t make people vote him in which the fools did (though ther's really no choice you know)....he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does? have you researched about it? i have. it explodes and when it des, not only does it evaporate skin, it also sreads serious forms of cancers, and new hybrids of cancers, and causes genetic deformities in babies, and poisons the water, soil...everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a christian

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war of such hideous ferocity, and skin melting bloodshed the world has ever 'seen'...'seen' in comma cause we aren't ALLOWEd to see the true horror. reasons being they want to use propaganda t make people vote him in which the fools did (though ther's really no choice you know)....he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does? have you researched about it? i have. it explodes and when it des, not only does it evaporate skin, it also sreads serious forms of cancers, and new hybrids of cancers, and causes genetic deformities in babies, and poisons the water, soil...everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?

Duendy

It is George the Liberator who has freed millions of Afghanis and now Iraqis. The Iraqis are grateful for their opportunity to choose their own destiny. It is their God given right that has been trampled on by despots for so many years. Freedom is worth fighting and dying for. Our forbearers fought and died for us so we could be free, now it is our turn to repay the debt and help others to achieve our same blessings.

*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity.Every time I go to amazon.com I find evermore referenced materials on the existence of UFOs and the healing benefits of crystals. The fact that there are always people who want to tear down shibboleths, be it the scientific disbelief in UFOs or the Christian church, and write reams of popular books about it, does not mean there is particular merit to any one of those books. There has been plenty of material available to discredit the Bible for over 200 years, if you go back to Thomas Paine. And yet here we are, living in the middle of a religious schism which is guaranteed only to increase Christianity's number of adherents.

Dan Brown et al get a large amount of money for writing thrillers in which the Church is willing to kill people rather than have "the truth" be known. The fact is, there is no realistic prospect of any proof sufficiently compelling to destroy the faith of such a large proportion of the world's population ever coming to light - as I would have thought a cursory browse through the Religion forum here would have made self-evident.

"The only religious wars you can attach to it are the crusades... and those would have likely happened anyway."

Uhh how about the war on terror??


"Further, if you're to make war on all faith, then what will you put in its place? Societies need faith to sustain cultural cohesion. It doesn't have to be religious faith... but faith in something."

The answer to religion (and inevitable atheism) is Humanism. Simple yet beautiful. Wonderful but factual.
Instead of people being moral because god tells them, they be moral because they believe it is the right thing to do.

Who says Medicine Woman has to be from a radical group? Maybe she's just passionate about the truth?

Or maybe she is radical, like that guy Nostradamus, who said the earth was a sphere!!! And that it rotated around the sun!!! Shame on him! (sarc) :confused:

Hmm maybe she's like I am and is still upset at the threats of incarceration the christians made to Nostradamus, and how they forced him to take back what he knew was right.
The christians will never forgive the jews for crucifying jesus, they will never forgive the muslims for 9-11.
The jews will never forgive the nazis, or the palestinians.
The muslims will never forgive the christians for war or the jews for palestine.

and I will never forgive the christians for Nostradamus, or hoarding all that gold and priceless shit in the vatican for themselves, when it could be used to help the needy/starving/war-torn.
All they do is release two doves, and they can't even get them both out the window. Hope the kids didn't get spanked / molested as punishment.

Nor will I forgive judaism for circumcision, or their racist beliefs.
Nor will I forgive islam for female genital mutilation and the headscarf (berkah).

Its about time someone fought for the human race instead of the magic man in the sky.

Karmashock....do you own a TV? have you seen the most bloddthirstiest mfker GeorgeWBush in action?....i have.` and i trust what i see. he is a 'born agin christian'.....he uses archaic terms in his speeches that our prime minister wouldn't be llowed to do although he ALSO onfeses to be a Christian
I don’t know specifically what you’re talking about? Why is that Christianity’s fault? What we’re doing is not a Christian action. It is the will of the neocons. The Neocons are not a particularly religious bunch… though they think religion is good.

How much do you honestly know about American politics? I wouldn’t presume to understand British politics unless I studied them… and I have not.

Have you studied American politics… or just taken in what the local media says?

he and Bush have started an ILLEGAL war
Actually, that has yet to be established. The international courts, or at least so they call themselves, have yet to charge the US or UK for any wrong doings.

Innocent until proven guilty.

You want to go against US and UK legal teams? Because I’m fairly certain they could humiliate anyone that tried it.

he and Blair use depleted uranium. do you know what that shit does?
Yep, superior armament against tanks. It’s good because it goes through old soviet armor like a white-hot knife through butter.

The guy in the tank is going to die regardless… does it really matter that his corpse might be slightly radioactive? Cus that’s the only difference.

everyfukin thing and has a hale shelf life of over THREEMILLIONYEARS!!!!!........now, come again?
It wasn’t used in quantities large enough to damage Iraq’s ecosystem. Furthermore, it’s only mildly radioactive.



If it makes you happy we’re going to stop using lead for our bullets in the next ten to twenty years… we’ll be going on to some ceramic plastic type that doesn’t poison the land like lead does. We’re also going to start using biodegradable explosives… Most explosives have heavy metal compounds that damage the environment… so we’re going to transition to types that biodegrade… at least the residue will… I don’t know if the explosive will prior to detonation.

We’re also transitioning more to robotic warfare… so the loss of life should be lower on both sides. Fewer US soldiers and pilots will die… and because the robot is expendable it can get close enough to the target to only kill the enemy… and leave the innocents untouched.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Brutus, do the ends justify the means? The whole war of Iraq was justified on the basis of Saddam's fellowtravelling with Al Q'aeida. Saddam hated Al Q'aeida and one of the few good things you could say about Saddam's Iraq was that it was strictly secular. The Iraqis now have a democracy, of sorts. But the division along party lines is religious, and the only direction that such a political system can go is towards Muslim Orthodoxy, which will mean continuing conflict and hatred, first against the Jews in Israel and then against the Great Christian Crusade.

There will be more hatred, more bloodshed, and the great Liberal tolerant society I grew up in will be swept away. After 50+ years of peace, we now live, as the Chinese would say, "in interesting times".

"humanism"? th "human race" ?

what about all the OTHEr species--of which thousands have gone extinct since humanism kicked off

no, what we need is a REfresher in the more-than-ness of NATURE. of realizing we cannot go on lordin it over Nature as though we were the IT-species! THAt has to be THe central insight to where science must explore at

actually some science is. it is the mechansitic mainstream variety that is seriously and very DAMAGINGLY holding things back

nad as for humans. theres too fkin many of us anyway.gobblin away at the resources of this 'small' Earth like some kind of weird two legged locusts

Uhh how about the war on terror??
Aside from the Islamic radicals, it is not a religious war.

The answer to religion (and inevitable atheism) is Humanism. Simple yet beautiful. Wonderful but factual.
Instead of people being moral because god tells them, they be moral because they believe it is the right thing to do.
Humanism typically boils down to emotionalism, which isn’t a moral system so much as giving into primal instincts. It is animal philosophy.

If you like it, then good luck to you. But I don’t think a successful modern society can be based upon it.

Who says Medicine Woman has to be from a radical group? Maybe she's just passionate about the truth?
She seems extremely passionate about something… such passions if unchecked lead to fanaticism. She seemed like a fanatic to me… though I don’t know enough about her belief system to have an informed opinion. I just sensed a lot of hate.

Or maybe she is radical, like that guy Nostradamus, who said the earth was a sphere!!! And that it rotated around the sun!!! Shame on him! (sarc) :confused:
That’s not a very good example. After all… Nostradamus was a nut… I’m sorry if you love the guy… but he is regarded today as a nut… as are the people that study his quatrains. But hey… They have FAITH that he could foresee the future. That God gave him divine sight… and I certainly don’t know that that isn’t true. I just think they’re a little obsessed and desperate… but if they have fun with it, it’s a good hobby a the very least.

Hmm maybe she's like I am and is still upset at the threats of incarceration the christians made to Nostradamus, and how they forced him to take back what he knew was right.
Again, you’re talking about the Vatican, which only represents about 1/3 of all Christendom. Orthodox Christians and “Protest”ants can’t be smeared with that.
The christians will never forgive the jews for crucifying jesus, they will never forgive the muslims for 9-11.
Neither of those statements is true. I don’t know what else to say about that… it’s just wrong.
The jews will never forgive the nazis, or the palestinians.
The Jews shouldn’t be expected to forgive the Nazis, I certainly never will.
The palistinians have been offered peace many times… they are only now moving towards something that might be peace.
Israel’s actions are as much caused by the Palestinian’s actions as the Palestinians actions are caused by Israel.

The muslims will never forgive the christians for war or the jews for palestine.
The Muslims and the Vatican have both wronged each other. I don’t feel that either owes the other an unconditional apology. Though the Pope did apologize for the Crusades. I don’t think the Muslim priests have apologized for the invasion of Europe.

and I will never forgive the christians for Nostradamus, or hoarding all that gold and priceless shit in the vatican for themselves, when it could be used to help the needy/starving/war-torn.
I’m not a Catholic… so I don’t feel any need to defend the Vatican… I don’t understand why Nostradamus was so special… they burned far better men then he.


But whatever.

Nor will I forgive judaism for circumcision, or their racist beliefs.
Circumcision? What are you even talking about now?… I’m circumcised… what’s the big deal? So I cried in pain one day when I was a baby… what’s the problem? I’m frankly glad that I am… t’would be weird in my country if I weren’t.
Nor will I forgive islam for female genital mutilation and the headscarf (berkah).
That stuff is pretty misogynist and nasty… but not uncommon in the world… many cultural groups do such things.

Its about time someone fought for the human race instead of the magic man in the sky.
It isn’t that simple though. You’re not fighting for the magic men as much as the magic men allow many diverse groups to ally with each other against common foes. Religion dies if it doesn’t give you or your society something material. In the case of the Roman Catholic Church that was social stability, obedience, tolerance within Christendom (so long as people didn’t leave Christendom), and money.

Every religion gives individuals and societies something in return for their belief. Otherwise, the leaders and people wouldn’t support it.

The reason religion fails is because it stops giving people these material things.


At least, that’s my cynical take on it.

Brutus:

"America, fuck yeah, freedom is the only way yeah."

Tell it to him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/burnedchild.jpg
And him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/bloodied_iraqichild.jpg
And him.
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/1_147151_1_6.jpg

If anything you just said had a thread of sincerity then why the killing of innocent people? Use of depleted uranium? Bombing of markets and wedding?
Torture and murder of prisoners?

If the problem was actually saddam the tyrant then why did they sell him all those WMDs to use on Iran before the first gulf war? (see photo of rumsfield with saddam).
http://huwy.customer.netspace.net.au/SaddamRumsfeld.jpg

Unlike the terrorists, the death of innocents on our part is a mistake.

We've spent billions to try and be very specific with our targets. The war would have been much much cheaper if we didn't care about innocent life... and none of our people would have died.

[QUOTE=Brutus1964]Duendy

It is George the Liberator who has freed millions of Afghanis and now Iraqis.

d__ you mean personally? i had though his tight arse was safe. faaaar away from all that horror. surely you mean all thge soldiers who have had to go and get blown up and suffer all forms of potential iseases. some of them not more than KIDS!

The Iraqis are grateful for their ,opportunity to choose their own destiny. It is their God given right that has been trampled on by despots for so many years.

d Right. in your naiveity you imagine your christian hero Bush has done it to get rid of a despot do you? Not for oil? i see. And those grateful Iraqis. you dont think they have been duped ...by the very same system that duped their OWn peoples by staging a false election result that got back in that evil warmongerin slimeball?> can you not see what a sham it all is. ooops, i'm asking the wrong dude aren't i?
m


__

Freedom is worth fighting and dying for.

d__real freedom has never been got by fightin and dyin. wars will never create freedom. the US has a WAr INDUSTRY. it dont WANt freedom. if it had freedom it wouldn't have no war industry. dig?
As a mtter of interest. have you actually fought in a war? and have any of your children been fighting in Iraq? and ,oh yeah, have you ever lost your entire family in a war at any time?

Our forbearers fought and died for us so we could be free, now it is our turn to repay the debt and help others to achieve


our same blessinnnngs.[/Qnnnnmm

but we are NOT free! i know that, but you apparently do not

also B. you have the habit of conveniently
editing out crucial points from posts i sent. like for example, what is the point of having so-called free elections (hah) in a utterly TOXIC environment??

Are you really so crass as to believe that the US invaded another country just to please our war industry?

We're not evil dude.

we're not the "great satan"... I don't know where this radical stuff comes from... it isn't even well thought out.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Karma you seem to be in love with saying that "only radical Islam" is making this a religious war yet Bush himself said that"God told him to attack Sadaam" also he seems to be in love with calling anyone that opposes his invasion "evil" ( another religious term) Does it take an international court to tell you the invasion was illegal? Then you must think Sadaam or OBL are innocent also because nether of them has faced trial either. You know that only US might has stopped any reprecussions from anything happening to the US on this one....heck Sadaam had better reasons for invading Kuwaiit than the US did for invading him :m:

"Humanism typically boils down to emotionalism, which isn’t a moral system so much as giving into primal instincts. It is animal philosophy."

You are referring to the "evolutionary perspective."
Too busy worrying about getting into heaven to get your facts straight? Oh thats right - its been that way for thousands of years.
Keep rallying for the ban of teaching evolutionary theory in schools.

"Unlike the terrorists, the death of innocents on our part is a mistake.
We've spent billions to try and be very specific with our targets. The war would have been much much cheaper if we didn't care about innocent life... and none of our people would have died. "

You obviously haven't seen the videos of innocent / injured people being targetted and killed?

Countless more westerners will die in this conflict that has been largely created by america's aggression, and continues because of the ignorance of people like you.


Duendy, the term humanism doesn't imply concern exclusively for human beings.
Humanists are troubled by the horrors the human race has caused animals and the environment and values their restoration and preservation.
After all we need a planet to live on right? May as well be a nice one. :)

I don’t know specifically what you’re talking about? d__Maybe, you aint done the necessary research?

Why is that Christianity’s fault? What we’re doing is not a Christian action. It is the will of the neocons. The Neocons are not a particularly religious bunch… though they think religion is good.
d__Easy. the man in CJHARGe is a 'BORN AGAIN CHRISTIAN'...hint hint

How much do you honestly know about American politics?

d__are you suggesting i can only talk about it if i have a phD in american ploitics? that is elitist garbage designed to stop ordinary people discussing about things that effect THEIr lives. dont believe that shit man. you have the power to find out for yourself. and a generalist approach is good to do this too. i am sure many people who ARe highly edsucated in american politics are so indoctrinated they cannot really see outta the box

I wouldn’t presume to understand British politics unless I studied them… and I have not.

d__basically, they are the poodle of Bush. period!

Have you studied American politics… or just taken in what the local media says?

d__oh no...shiiit. dont trust the LOCAL media. you have to know how to search the underground shit and use your intelligence to trust what you discover


Actually, that has yet to be established. The international courts, or at least so they call themselves, have yet to charge the US or UK for any wrong doings.

d__oh, maaaan. believe us. it WAs illegal. a preemptive strike. unprecedented in modern warfare. though i dont agree with war in any form

Innocent until proven guilty.

d__go tell that to the many MANy thousands of innocent Iraqis, and Afghanis who have lost their lives, their families, had limbs blown off, have cancers, and deformed babies, and have to live in a toxic environemnt for ever now!

You want to go against US and UK legal teams? Because I’m fairly certain they could humiliate anyone that tried it.

d__so you are in awe of that shit are you. i am not. it is just a skill designed to obfuscate the truth is all


Yep, superior armament against tanks. It’s good because it goes through old soviet armor like a white-hot knife through butter.

d__and thats what you know huh? like i say. your needing more research into this subect

www.DennisKyne.com look for the links about 'shadows'

The War on Iraq is a Nuclear War
www.awakenedwoman.com/moret_nuclear

if you have trouble with these urls let me know. i have others but me notes are scatered and unfiled

The guy in the tank is going to die regardless… does it really matter that his corpse might be slightly radioactive? Cus that’s the only difference.

d__'slight' radioactive, and SUCH senistivity.....NOT! and it aint only men in tanks. in Gulf War 1 they mainly used DU in the desert. in their ltest war they used it on countryside and villages


It wasn’t used in quantities large enough to damage Iraq’s ecosystem. Furthermore, it’s only mildly radioactive.

d__RUBBISH. like i said your research leaves a lot to be desired. you just say and expect it to be true. bit like a politician really. question: when was the last time you even HEARd the mainstream media even MENTION DU?



If it makes you happy we’re going to stop using lead for our bullets in the next ten to twenty years… we’ll be going on to some ceramic plastic type that doesn’t poison the land like lead does. We’re also going to start using biodegradable explosives… Most explosives have heavy metal compounds that damage the environment… so we’re going to transition to types that biodegrade… at least the residue will… I don’t know if the explosive will prior to detonation.

d__and that's supposed to mKE me happy is it. i really am aware of the callousness and indifference all round. it is so excruciatingly depressing. it is like people have completely lost ANY humainity, all spirit. and yet they harp on about religion like its goin outta fashion

We’re also transitioning more to robotic warfare… so the loss of life should be lower on both sides. Fewer US soldiers and pilots will die… and because the robot is expendable it can get close enough to the target to only kill the enemy… and leave the innocents untouched.

d__are you for real mate?...just askin
i feel uncomfortable with your relating to me the future 'benefits' of 'good war'. actually it may have slipped your notice that the Gulf ways have been robotic...like video games? here the pilots firing the evil fukc dont even have to SEe what they've just melted...that what you mean?....and you think that's progress do you?

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

HAH jeeeezus ...you are sumthin else aren't you

Are you really so crass as to believe that the US invaded another country just to please our war industry?

We're not evil dude.

we're not the "great satan"... I don't know where this radical stuff comes from... it isn't even well thought out.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.




Me you an the average citizen arent evil......but our foreign policies could easily be seen as evil by someone living under a repressive regime supported by the US.....ask a Iraqi living under Sadaam prior to 1990 if the US was evil for supporting him(especally one that was gassed by US posion he was given)

Karma you seem to be in love with saying that "only radical Islam" is making this a religious war yet Bush himself said that"God told him to attack Sadaam" also he seems to be in love with calling anyone that opposes his invasion "evil" ( another religious term)
Just because it's a moral action doesn't make it a holy war. Hitler was evil... is that a religious statement? I'm not saying saddam is hitler. I'm saying that you can fight against evil without things getting religious.

Does it take an international court to tell you the invasion was illegal?
There has been no offical statement declaring the war illegal to my knowledge. Until such time the claim is meaningless.

of course... I don't recognize the UN's right to declare such things to begin with... but that's just me.

Then you must think Sadaam or OBL are innocent also because nether of them has faced trial either. You know that only US might has stopped any reprecussions from anything happening to the US on this one....heck Sadaam had better reasons for invading Kuwaiit than the US did for invading him :m:
We got offical sanction by the UN to invade the first time... and BOTH Saddam and Osama (if captured alive) will have their day in court.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Are you really so crass as to believe that the US invaded another country just to please our war industry?

d__your naiveity overwhlems me. though i can only excuse it because i am VERy aware how opressively insular and manipulative the US mianstream media is.
what i wont forgive about naiveity though is when this here--the Web is available. why dont you USe it! use and you will find.
think about it. what does a BUSINESs want? what is the CRITERIA for businessnessness?
EXPANSION right. it needs to be fed. so, is the war business/industry any different than the criterias for all business nterprise? what do you think.

We're not evil dude.
d__methinks you protest too much (Shakespeare)

we're not the "great satan"... I don't know where this radical stuff comes from... it isn't even well thought out.

d__oh but it is. this is why i encourage a generalist approach to thinkin it out. the very NOTION of 'satan' for example. as you know, Bush is a born again christian. i think we can all agree with that. and what do they believe in? they HAVe to have a 'satan' a 'devil' a scapegoat in order to justify their self-righteousness, right? do you agree? and couple THat with power and a war industry lookin to be fed, and what you GOt is EVIL. the CREATION OF an 'enemy'...then the means of propaganda to make the people AFRAID Of an 'enemy' and then you caN MANIPULATE THEM ANY WAY YOU WANT. this is how power works. they are mainpulating you.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

whateverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Just because it's a moral action doesn't make it a holy war.


I see how you skipped over how Bush said that "God told him to attack
Saddam"


Hitler was evil... is that a religious statement? I'm not saying saddam is hitler. I'm saying that you can fight against evil without things getting religious



Psssttt........Hitler was a Christian(so it isnt just radical Islam)




There has been no offical statement declaring the war illegal to my knowledge. Until such time the claim is meaningless.


:rolleyes:



We got offical sanction by the UN to invade the first time... and BOTH Saddam and Osama (if captured alive) will have their day in court.


Back in 1990? I thought you didnt recognize the U.N.....maybe you just recognize what suits you to do so.....that sounds about like a Bushie

Me you an the average citizen arent evil......but our foreign policies could easily be seen as evil by someone living under a repressive regime supported by the US.....ask a Iraqi living under Sadaam prior to 1990 if the US was evil for supporting him(especally one that was gassed by US posion he was given)
You can't see all US actions as by the Same group or ideology.

The US is changing. In the past we allied with nations. These two wars were about allying with people. That is the new doctrine. It will take us a generation to get out of the mess Kissinger put us in...

But we will be a moral nation again.
====================
I see how you skipped over how Bush said that "God told him to attack
Saddam"
I thought I addressed that. It doesn't make it a religious war. Look at the people behind Bush that pushed this thing. Do they strike you as deeply religious people? They aren't. When Bush says "God", its just his way of saying he thinks he's on the side of right.
Psssttt........Hitler was a Christian(so it isnt just radical Islam)
No he wasn't. He believed in mystism or was an atheist. He was anti Christian if anything.
:rolleyes:
If that's the best you've got, then it's rather obvious why the US and UK have ignored the statement as baseless.
Back in 1990? I thought you didnt recognize the U.N.....maybe you just recognize what suits you to do so.....that sounds about like a Bushie
The UN doesn't mean much to me. However, I assumed it meant something to you. So if you support the UN, then you will recognize that that war was legal and an official UN action.

If you don't, then you don't respect them any more then I do.


At least I'm honest about my feels for them. You seem to just support them when they have a beef with the US.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Psssttt........Hitler was a Christian(so it isnt just radical Islam)

This probably isn't true.

To avoid confusion, yes, I'm aware that he's made some Christian statements, but these were almost certainly politically minded rather than a sincere reflection of his beliefs.

Anyway, it doens't matter and you shouldn't need to resort to this. A lot of good people were Christians, and a lot of bad people were. Ditto for every religion, or atheism.

No he wasn't. He believed in mystism or was an atheist. He was anti Christian if anything.


Karma,


“Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”


( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )






“My feeling as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was his fight against the Jewish poison. Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice. And as a man I have the duty to see to it that human society does not suffer the same catastrophic collapse as did the civilization of the ancient world some two thousand years ago — a civilization which was driven to its ruin through this same Jewish people.

“Then indeed when Rome collapsed there were endless streams of new German bands flowing into the Empire from the North; but, if Germany collapses today, who is there to come after us? German blood upon this earth is on the way to gradual exhaustion unless we pull ourselves together and make ourselves free!

“And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly, it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people. And when I look on my people I see them work and work and toil and labor, and at the end of the week they have only for their wages wretchedness and misery. When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil, if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom today this poor people are plundered and exploited.”

( Adolf Hitler, in a speech delivered at Munich, April 12, 1922; from Norman H. Baynes, ed., The Speeches of Adolf Hitler: April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1, New York: Oxford University Press, 1942, pp. 19-20.


I have read his Mein Kampf in the past and he makes many more statements regarding his (or at least his version) Christian feelings

peace to you :m:

This probably isn't true.

To avoid confusion, yes, I'm aware that he's made some Christian statements, but these were almost certainly politically minded rather than a sincere reflection of his beliefs.

Anyway, it doens't matter and you shouldn't need to resort to this. A lot of good people were Christians, and a lot of bad people were. Ditto for every religion, or atheism.




Indeed I agree....but when statements are made that the only religion that is politcally motivated towards violence is Islam then I feel as if I must set the record straight.Sorry dudes but Hitler is a Christian as much as OBL is a Muslim.......I personally dont think either one is a member of their respective religions.....(actions speak louder than words)I do hope you say the same thing when one uses OBL to represent all of Islam :m:

BUSH, HITLER and MYSTICISM And CHRISTIANITY: there seems some confusion here from karmashock regarding how all of that is commensurate with the violent actions those men/tyrants do, so let me explore this to maybe clear things up

all the three generation sof the Bush familiay have been inititated into a secret elite mysical club called the SKULL&BONES .....That club is connected to the one Hitler and the SS were part of which had as one of its names The THULE Society.......the mysticism is similar between them. Bush's granfather made lots of money from Nazism

The DREAMS , MOTIFS, and BELIEFs of those cults and mysticism and Christianity are more or less the same. it is a MOVe towards the 'light' and a retreat from the 'dark. the dark is demonized, and this fear of it also includes fear and superiority regarding non-white people, and WOMEN, and NATURE. they are ANTI-Nature. because their central tenet is a going towars the LIGHT. they thus see Nature in its present state as dark and needing purification

you migh think all this is BS, but i can assure you it's all there to be researched about. and it gives you an insight as to why politics as we know it operates. don't be even fooled when people in power claim they are not religious. for unconsciously all that unreolved shit is workin itself out in their ACTIONS. that;s whay they are so dangerous

Another EXTREMELY important thing....all you lot who support that viscious evbil thug, smirkinBUshjunior........talk about selvetive MEMORY. you have selcetive EVERYTHING. you are THe perfect example of the ones who see the naked emperor WITh clothes on!

for a kick off..9/11...i was severly shoked by the horror of that. i was on holiday at the time, in a shack by a beaach. it was SO quite apart from the surf. on a TV i happened to see the news and all that horror was emphasized in such a beautiful place

3000, people, a shock right? well think about how many have been killed in Iraq. MANy more than that including children,and babies, including many having awful awful injuies, and losing limbs etc. how would you have felt if THat had happened in NYC? would you have condoned all out NUCLEAR hiroshoma style reaction.....?

so, anyway. we then see--and i have seen this documented here over and over--Bush tellin the 'folks' he wants bin Laden. well, how comes then he lets all the family LEAVE on the ONLy planes allowed to fly as all others have been grounded?..his familiy also have done BUSINESs with that family...you should study all this. i am not doing the job for you!

the whole thing STINKS to high heaven. and those who cannot see what's going on...i would personally be ashamed to ADMIT it

surenderer,

He used it to manipulate the masses, he didn't believe it. THere is a huge difference.
The claim is sometimes made that Hitler was a Christian - a Roman Catholic until the day he died. In fact, Hitler rejected Christianity.

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler's Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
=========================
Falsification of ALL religious beliefs are not beyond the ability of science. God does/does not exist is an answerable question; in the not to distant future. The work done in the areas of Quantum Mechanics combined with AI-computer technologies - will deal a somber death blow to what ALL current belief systems are; in anywhere from 50-200 years (+/-).
No, a supreme being could change your results in real time or after your saw something... of course it could wrap you a pocket of other reality that didn't have god in it, but was subject to it.


To be god is be able to do literally anything... including hide its existence if it wishes.

There is NO way to find a supreme being if it doesn't want to be found.

Glad to hear you have some respect for its ablity to have a positive infulence.
===============================
BUSH, HITLER and MYSTICISM And CHRISTIANITY: there seems some confusion here from karmashock regarding how all of that is commensurate with the violent actions those men/tyrants do, so let me explore this to maybe clear things up
here we go...

all the three generation sof the Bush familiay have been inititated into a secret elite mysical club called the SKULL&BONES .....That club is connected to the one Hitler and the SS were part of which had as one of its names The THULE Society.......the mysticism is similar between them. Bush's granfather made lots of money from Nazism
this is just stupid conspiracy nonsense... I thought you were going to clarify things... all you're doing is throwing conspiracy mud in the water.

Skull and Bones takes in members of the elite. It's a club for such people... it has no political philosophy beyond that. Boston is known for many such clubs... it doesn't mean anything sinister... if anything such rumors just tickle their egos.

The whole thing is stupid and should be ignored. It's like writing "no girls allowed" on the club house door... that's cool when you're 7 years old because the girls want in and you don't much care for them. Likewise, Skull and bones is gets a kick out of people probing and coming up with stupid theories.

The DREAMS , MOTIFS, and BELIEFs of those cults and mysticism and Christianity are more or less the same. it is a MOVe towards the 'light' and a retreat from the 'dark. the dark is demonized, and this fear of it also includes fear and superiority regarding non-white people, and WOMEN, and NATURE. they are ANTI-Nature. because their central tenet is a going towars the LIGHT. they thus see Nature in its present state as dark and needing purification

you migh think all this is BS, but i can assure you it's all there to be researched about. and it gives you an insight as to why politics as we know it operates. don't be even fooled when people in power claim they are not religious. for unconsciously all that unreolved shit is workin itself out in their ACTIONS. that;s whay they are so dangerous
is there a conspiracy theory or kook fantasy that you don't believe in?

aliens (reptilian or otherwise)?
Bigfoot (asian or American variants)?
JFK (other than Oswald)?
Crop circles?
Carlyle group?
Atlantis?
Elvis still alive?
Men in black?
Nostradamus (predicting the future)?

Just give us a yes or no for each… and feel free to add your own.

It is George the Liberator who has freed millions of Afghanis and now Iraqis. The Iraqis are grateful for their opportunity to choose their own destiny. It is their God given right that has been trampled on by despots for so many years. Freedom is worth fighting and dying for. Our forbearers fought and died for us so we could be free, now it is our turn to repay the debt and help others to achieve our same blessings.
LOL, you are freeking hilarious, a ditto head for sure, you really drink the kool-aid. You know women in Afghanistan still have to wear the burka, and get thrown in jail for running away from home? Do you know the Taliban still exist there? Setting up an election in Iraq is the least we could do after destroying their country and failing to rebuild anything while stealing huge amounts of money from reconstruction funds, and it's in no way a justification for the war. You must like the widespread torture, described by one man as "worse than Saddam", and the impending civil war in Iraq between the Sunnis and Shias. You must love the record national debts that weaken the dollar, the planned rape of Social Security, the corruption of the vote in Ohio and the beginning of the corporate owned ballot box. And you must be crazy about Rumsfeld's new SS force.

surenderer,

He used it to manipulate the masses, he didn't believe it. THere is a huge difference.




Hmmm........Hitler's Germany combined state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. I think he did believe it.


http://www.nobeliefs.com/nazis.htm

karmashock...YOUR tying to make ME look a fool huh?

let me ask you: are YOU a member of the Skull&Bones?

i am guessing you aren't?

Can you thn tell us what you know specifically about their philosophy please?

Listen dude. NEVEr underestimate myths/the stories we tell ourselves.
I mean you DO know that the whole Nazi vision and horrendous behaviour was based on a myth don't you?
So, why then do you presume it ended THERe with that tyrant and the same cant be infecting tyrant Bush? why do you assume that

and another thing about the accusation of being a concpiracy theorist. THat very accusation can stop you exploring about the underlying motives of power-weilders. why? because uhhhh i dont want to look like a wuss and be called a CT is why

but any way. what the f do you know what goes on in the old S&B club dude. it would be REAL fun if you ARe a member cause then i can make some more notes

i await with baited breath

M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity.

And the actual validity of any of the points mentioned in those books is likely to be quite small. In reality, the evidence we have of early Christianity is less than those who were early Christians. So, if the early movement aggressively spread, then it's unlikely for there to be conclusive early evidence disproving Christianity.


I believe the truth is being told, but they haven't accepted it. What will Roman Catholics do? It will be their faith that crumbles first.

And what makes you think that this time is worst than when the vandals and huns were threatning Rome, or when Islam was aggressively spreading, taking over the Holy Land and Spain?


Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.

Warfare did exist before Christianity, and unchristians still fight among themselves.

okinrus: And the actual validity of any of the points mentioned in those books is likely to be quite small.
*************
M*W: okie, have you read any of these books? Seems to me that there are more and more referenced writings against Christianity.
*************
okinrus: In reality, the evidence we have of early Christianity is less than those who were early Christians. So, if the early movement aggressively spread, then it's unlikely for there to be conclusive early evidence disproving Christianity.

And what makes you think that this time is worst than when the vandals and huns were threatning Rome, or when Islam was aggressively spreading, taking over the Holy Land and Spain?
*************
M*W: Modern scholars as opposed to vandals and huns. I wish for your sake Christianity was true, but I've long known that it was not. I've been a victim, too.

Warfare did exist before Christianity, and unchristians still fight among themselves.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm........Hitler's Germany combined state with church.
He used it, he wasn't a Christian.
Review that large selection of quotes I gave you. He had nothing but contempt for Christianity.
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
Review the other quotes if this isn't enough for you.
================================
karmashock...YOUR tying to make ME look a fool huh?

let me ask you: are YOU a member of the Skull&Bones?

i am guessing you aren't?
What is their philosophy... and how do you know it? It’s a stupid club for rich bastards and sons of senators. An elitist society that offends me for it’s classiest nature, but there is nothing more to it then that.

You didn't answer my questions about things you believe in.

Repeated:
aliens (reptilian or otherwise)?
Bigfoot (asian or American variants)?
JFK (other than Oswald)?
Crop circles?
Carlyle group?
Atlantis?
Elvis still alive?
Men in black?
Nostradamus (predicting the future)?

Yes or no, please. Seriously... humor me.

but any way. what the f do you know what goes on in the old S&B club dude. it would be REAL fun if you ARe a member cause then i can make some more notes

i await with baited breath
I'll answer this after you humor my conspiracy question.
==========================
LOL, your brain-farts are quite silly - all on their own.

Yet!
a.) A magical god could be so magical that its magic could not be detected; because its really really magical.
b.) God is so invisible and un-detectable and hides from being known - therefore he exists!

If you wish to discuss AI-tech and Quantum reality implications and the “supreme being” existing in super-nature fallacy fine; but your silly comments are pointless absurdities.

You don't seem to grasp what a God actually is... It is an absolute being. Nothing is out of it's grasp. If you think you can see it, then you're just being arrogant.

I am not saying there is a god. I am simply saying that if there is a god, it could easily prevent you from finding it - forever.

Therefore it is a matter of faith. You either have it or you don't.


Love and Peace, Karmashock.

M*W: okie, have you read any of these books? Seems to me that there are more and more referenced writings against Christianity.

Yes, I have a history book on the occult. Never could make through it. There's a little basis for a conspiracy view of history. Most events happeneded the way they recorded it, or similar to the way recorded.


M*W: Modern scholars as opposed to vandals and huns.

Not every modern scholar is anti-christian.


I wish for your sake Christianity was true, but I've long known that it was not. I've been a victim, too.

You may know, but you have not shown or proven?

What will enforce the eventuation of a religion dying ?

I think any sort of belief or belief system will only progress to our higher self.
Christianity has strong morals that can help just about any civilization have stability in sharing love and prosperity, and that goes for any religion too.

Not being a christian myself, I still believe in the beautiful ideals it beliefs and the wonder man, Jesus, can share.
Implying that Christianity will eventuate into a non-existance assumes that beliefs is pointless and quite rude to the chrisitians that go to church every sunday with an open heart.

Nothing ever dies, it just changes.

The inevitability of atheism is false.

If anything, it is the harbinger of a dying civilization. Societies often become atheistic before they die. Such was the case in the example of Rome and many others. Prior to their collapse, the belief in the old Gods died… the civilizations themselves didn’t last much longer. The active encouragement of faith is backed by US Neocons largely for this reason. We perceive nihilism to be a symptom of degeneration and decay… and are therefore doing our best to counteract this syndrome. This is why we’ve allied with the ‘Religious’ right. We share very little in common with them in many respects. But we see the notion of beliefs and moral constants are preferable to moral ambiguity. To this end we do our best to strengthen them. Were it not for our support and political protection, they would have been cut down in American politics before they even got going. This has been on going for well over 40 years.

If anything religion is getting stronger in the US instead of weaker. Furthermore, while domestic religion is very weak in Europe, they’ve creative a faith vacuum. The consequence of this is that they’re importing an immigrant culture that has a decent chance of taking over the host societies. To compromise in that situation is to lose. So, they’ll either start to project their own culture a little more strongly or be consumed. The choice is entirely theirs. We have made our choice.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Karmashock,
Rome turned Christian before it fell, but that still doesn't mean that's why it fell. Also, atheist is not nihilism, Buddhists, for instance, are atheists. And I do not believe for one second that the 'cons and the religious wrong share little in common, they are the same people. Morality is often ambiguous, since no set of rules could account for every situation, and reality is a continuum, not broken up into fixed segments that act in predictable ways. I'm all for people being interested in religion, but it is not a panacea. You seem to describe a spiritual darwinism with the most aggressive culture winning. And the most aggressive cultures today are fundamentalist.

okinrus: Yes, I have a history book on the occult. Never could make through it. There's a little basis for a conspiracy view of history. Most events happeneded the way they recorded it, or similar to the way recorded.
*************
M*W: I wouldn't consider a book on the occult to be an antithesis to Christianity in the same manner the Gnostic Gospels do. Yet, they are about Christ but not Paul's Christ. In the GGs, Jesus is shown to be a real human being and a spiritual leader. Some of the Apostles, Peter for one, was shown to be an old hard-headed misogynist ala Paul. Paul, of course, is not mentioned in the GGs, but Jesus's followers were aware of his false Christianity. Revelations nails him.
*************
okinrus: Not every modern scholar is anti-christian.
*************
M*W: True, but their findings are biased based on their belief -- the belief they want everyone to embrace.
*************
okinrus: You may know, but you have not shown or proven?
*************
M*W: Yes, I personally know that Christianity is false. All I can do is relate my story, but I certainly don't expect anyone to base their belief/disbelief on my experience. Each person will awaken in their own way... or as Jesus put it, "to become fully human."

*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity. It makes me wonder, what will Christians do when their faith has been proven to be false? false? in your dreams

all those books? that's because your ilk just have to write ever more books, type their little fingers to the nub, those little demons on their shoulders just whispering in their ears, "write this", "write that", I bet you even read "da Vinci Code" as if true hystory, :D
Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.when christianity falls, will be the End Times & you'll have the earth all to yourself, for a little while then all hell breaks lose, enjoy while you can, because then Heaven breaks forth

Oh, you aren’t hmmm? That’s funny because next you define irrational aspects (details) to the IF (God)?


Aspects (details) of your imaginary (ontological) god.
(a) It wants to be hidden.
(b) It “IS.” You seem to think, if you imagine an aspect - therefore it is real.
(c) Absolute. This is a self-negating philosophical (logical) inevitability.
(d) It has an ability (a “grasp”) - that it does not use - LOL.
(e) It is invisible - and undetectable - LOL.
What does this mean? I said that IF God exists, there is no way of proving he exists unless he wants you to. This is implied in the definition of what it means to be a god.

As far as Roman ideology (Society) being gone; no - it is still here today;
Indeed there are interesting aspects that have survived because the romans were very good at some thing and people have copied from them. However, their empire fell. It fell because its reason for being... it's culture... collapsed. It lost it's morality (yes, rome was once moral) then slowly degenerated into decadence. Christianity didn't help because the ruling class merely used it instead of being subject to it.

The Empire of Alexander the Great; died upon his death-bead; atheism had nothing to with it;
Nor was his empire a culture. He borrowed from things and maintained his empire with nothing more then his army and fear of his return. When he died, the army and that fear died.

His empire was sustained by Faith in Alexander... when he died, the empire died.
nor the end of the Sumerian; the Egyptian; the Persian Empire; nor the Caliphate; etc.
Each of those went through a period of degeneration as a disconnect developed between culture of each society and the culture of power.

Egypt kept its faith for a very very long time. This is in part why it remains the single longest lived empire in known human history. I believe they can claim 4000 years of empire... not bad.

Muslims were Muslims within the Caliphate and are still Muslims today - yet the Empire is Gone.
The Muslims were actually defeated by the Mongols who then crowned themselves kings in the muslim world. They converted to islam apparently, but the conversion wasn't particularly deep and the cultural differences were profound. It was at that point that the muslim world began to decay. That was basically the peak of their civilization.

Most empires reach beyond their historical borders - they deserve to shrink (back); but they do not die. Nations continue.
Deserve? That sounds like a moral judgment... explain the basis of this morality.

Civilian cities in Japan were fire-bombed by the (US) during WW II - and after we pummeled them into submission; we A-bombed them twice. This would have amounted to war crimes had the US not been the clear and would-be victor. But Japan remains; transformed; it is not dead either. The Nation continues.
This demonstrates such a low understanding of that war, that I don't know what to say...

Without the A bomb, Japan would have been invaded... far far more would have died.

We were even in talks with Stalin to provide some of the troops. We estimated that a million of our people would die in that invasion... considering htat we woudl have air superiority, how many japanese do you think would die? Upwards of 5 million at least. How many did the A bomb kill? The A bomb was the best thing that could have happened. It got them to stop fighting before the invasion.



Religion AND "politic" are both examples of ideology. Ideology transforms and evolves or it dies; but society and people continue. This return to the religion; the myths of old idea; has no basis in reality; you merely rant; from your own imagination.
Actually, I'm expressing the opinion of the dominant political and ideological power in the US at this moment.

The revitalization of religion in the US is calculated. We're doing it on purpose.

Wiser men then you or I have set upon this course so you shouldn't be so easy in dismissing something you likely don't understand.

Atheism, Agnostics, Zealots, Theist, Fundamentalists, Traditionalists, Reasonable Religionists, etc, and mixes thereof have always existed together within society.
sure... some people always prefer having sex with sheep to their appropriate species and sex... but its not a problem unless it becomes wide spread.

Statistics.

The struggle for power; needs an ideology; the claim to finite resources; requires a righteous stand. This is an example of the negative - and hardly a reason to have “faith” in the old myths.
A people need an identity. It is that simple. If people don't have that, then everyone goes in their own direction and the system falls apart.

Cultural diffusion has happened for thousands of years? So - so what.
Of times cultural diffusion is healthy - it merely takes time; unless you lend an ear to the fear-mongers.
If you can't see the difference, then I can't help you. Regardless, the statistics show that you'll see what I'm talking about in the next 30 years. So buckle up and enjoy the ride.


You sound like a Catholic - here. LOL
There was nothing remotely Catholic or even religious about that statement. It was an expression of sociological theory that I think is valid.

If anything Europe - is not a vacuum; some of the best minds live there; they have some of the best universities in the world.
You didn't understand what I meant by vacuum. I'm not saying you're stupid or without talent. Rome didn't fall for lack of ability. It fell for lack of will and unifying identity. No one felt close to the empire. No one loved it. Very few labored to protect and sustain it. Even the ruling class of Rome cared very little for the empire so long as it kept them in wealth.

This killed the empire.

Your “faith” vacuum is non-existent; pure imagination. Doomsayers and presumptive-minds like you exist in Society always. You make claims to know; yet all you really do is make false claims.

It’s funny you should mention an increase in religionists in the US;
while there is a decline in US education standards simultaneously. :)
Your grasp of those statistics is very shallow. The falling in US test scores is primarily in language. That is to say, it seems that Americans over all don't speak the english language as well as they used to. Furthermore, the primary areas where this statistic is falling is in major cities and mostly around the boarder with Mexico.

What does this tell you? Language ability is falling in major cities and around the Mexican board... think.

Areas that are either rural or far north have not had falling statistics. They're either the same or have been rising.
============================
Karmashock,
Rome turned Christian before it fell, but that still doesn't mean that's why it fell.
Actually, that is precisely why it fell. Ask around. The most distinguished book about the fall of Rome is called "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Edward Gibbon. In that book he makes roughly the same argument. Rome lost faith in itself and went into decay.

Also, atheist is not nihilism, Buddhists, for instance, are atheists.
You wouldn't refer to them as such and Buddhists wouldn't associate themselves with atheists. Atheism is not a belief system. It is an anti belief system. It believes there is no god but it doesn't profess any other belief.

Therefore its follows tend to believe in nothing, ergo nihilists. Can you be an atheist without being a nihilist? Sure… but typically that isn’t the case. Most beliefs are just derivative of living in what remains primarily a Christian society. If that support goes away, then there is no guarantee that they’ll believe in anything.
And I do not believe for one second that the 'cons and the religious wrong share little in common, they are the same people. Morality is often ambiguous, since no set of rules could account for every situation, and reality is a continuum, not broken up into fixed segments that act in predictable ways. I'm all for people being interested in religion, but it is not a panacea. You seem to describe a spiritual darwinism with the most aggressive culture winning. And the most aggressive cultures today are fundamentalist.
If you can't distinguish the Neo-Conservatives from the Religious Right, then you're blind. They’re very very different groups that have allied with each other because they have similar goals.

The Neocons think America must be a nation with a strong belief system. It must have strong cultural values and a strong cultural identity. What that identity is or culture is doesn’t matter as much. It simply must have one.

The Religious right thinks America must become a more Christian nation, with more strongly professed moral beliefs.

The religious right gives the Neocons some of what they want in the US. The rest the neocons have to make for themselves. Look to what we're doing in Iraq if you want to see some of that.

The Neocons give the religious right legitimacy and access that they otherwise would not have had. Without Neocon backup, the religious right would have been either ignored or swated. The Neocons deliberately stirred and drove the religious right. They were always there, but the neocons brought them up.


The politics of this country are far more complex then you likely realize. That doesn't make any of these groups bad people either. The Neocons want to spread freedom and democracy around the world... while making the US a more moral nation. These goals are pursued because they believe it is the only way to save America from internal decay and decadence. This is what drives them.


Anyway, please don't respond with snarky and childish comments. This could be a good discussion.

Love and Peace, Karmashock.

Just like I said - you are defining a transcendent being.
Nothing about this transcendence is implied - or assumed; yet you assume and define.
You continue to define details of god-abstractions that - you have merely imagined into being (this hiding aspect).

You also assume a "proving itself" detail - which is equally nonsense-ical.
Nothing of the kind. Gods cannot be understood by science. Hence SUPER-natural or BEYOND nature which includes science.


Explain how an Empire is moral - that conquers; murders; and enslaves; and endures for a 1000 years.
Who’s morality? Morality is defined by the society. The Romans didn’t think it was immoral and so it wasn’t. Morality is not universal throughout all cultures… in any respect.

a.) Was this illegal at the time? If one considers the various conventions trying to limit war and agreed to by the international community as establishing a legal code, then the Hague Convention of 1923 (Articles 22, 23) made indiscriminate urban bombing illegal. This view is confirmed by the speech of the British Prime Minister before the House of Commons in 1938 in which he said that any such bombing was an "undoubted violation of international law." Shortly after, the League of Nations unanimously passed a resolution affirming that such bombing was illegal.
I believe a contract is void if the opponent violates the terms.

Things go up - then the go down. This all Christian Nation will not happen - it is merely what America is; always changing; leaning one way - then another. I feel the 1%-2% swing to the right is a backlash reaction to the Social revolutions of the 60’s and 70’s; the excesses of the 80’s; and the aging of the revolution-boomers; they have had their fill of excess and are content on rejecting-it. Born-again and ready to condemn.
Actually, this movement has been building for over 50 years. Look the neocons up. Seriously make an effort to understand what drives them. It’s about preventing a future fall into degeneration. This is why we have stirred the religious right… they’re stability at the very least…


The rest of your pointless ranting on the ideology of Neo-cons and morality speaks for itself - nor does it infer - correctness of your original spurious and subjective premise.
What do you know of neocons? You don’t seem to have the most basic grasp, so I don’t see that you have the right to take such a tone with me.

But please explain this non-sense - your sheep-theory.
“Karmashock - sure... some people always prefer having sex with sheep to their appropriate species and sex... but its not a problem unless it becomes wide spread.”
Put it in the context of the question I was answering. In a vacuum, it’s just a maxim that states that some people might do just about anything no matter what it is… but to a society what matters is statistics… proportions.

What will Christians do when their religion dies?

I don't think that christianity will ever die, from one generation to another there will always be that hope amongs idiots to be saved from who the hell knows what? As if they have found an aswer to beat death.

As long as there are wars, and seems many will come our way specially with neo-cons and christian right-wingers waging it upon an invisible enemy they've yet to identify, only knows as "terrorists" of which they may be brooding in mainland China or Russia for all we know, these people are here to bring armegeddon, the zeal of these idiots is to dwindle the population of earth and they have the power to do so, as long as people with their heads stuck up their ass let it happen examples here are; well I don't need to mention it just look at their idiotic posts supporting war, and the neo-cons.

It is true that the primitive moral teachings of the christian faith has brought forth a moral standard; sadly they seem to have forgotten this and just aid the freaking people who crusified their own savior, in totally trying to commit genocide of a population of Palestines, for more dessert lands. If these sob's who proclaimed to be christian had any freaking common sense they would see the similarity between the state of Israel and Nazis. The Nazis of course murdered thousands of jews, and now jews are doing the same with the same ferocity to the peoples of Palestine. *Just in* my bad!; not all Israelis are included in the mindless killings of Palestinians. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/01/278573.shtml

And then we have visions of a religious nature; here's a freaking fool who believes he knows what jesus looks like, and of all things this image is seen in a frying pan..LOL.:

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0201/4150534_200X150.jpg

http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/food/4150919/detail.html

It seems that Christianity jumped from the fire into the frying pan. :D

Godless.

So you know the gods then?
The nature of a god is implicite in its definition. It has no limits. Nothing is beyond its reach.

If there are no limits, then that applies to all the physical laws... time, space, matter, etc are meaningless.

Ok what are the statistics? Since that is what matters.
To what end? What is your purpose?

Irrelevant, the mere fact that it's a possibility makes it impossible for you dispute it completely. Ergo, you can't ever be sure.

it is just as flimsy to say absolutely that god does not exist. You cannot know.

belief.

*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity. It makes me wonder, what will Christians do when their faith has been proven to be false? My guess is that, of course, they will be in denial as some already are. How will they cope with their loss of faith? I know how this loss feels. I've experienced it. Will they turn to those of us who have grieved through the loss? I believe the truth is being told, but they haven't accepted it. What will Roman Catholics do? It will be their faith that crumbles first. Will there be another 'reformation' to explain the coming fall of Christianity? Or will the truth about Christianity result in the Jim Jones Worship Kool-Aid Feast?

Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.

Maybe when their religion dies, they'll actually get to know God.

Nope...just kidding. Because if they really wanted to know God, then nothing, including organized religion, could stand in their way. So I would suppose that they will most likely find some other dogma, doctrine, or ideology to follow blindly, just as they did Christianity, so that they can fullfill their same selfish purposes...acceptance, approval, egotism, greed, control, and/or judgementalism. Anything that they can latch on to that would enable them to say to someone else, "I'm right and you're wrong", or "I'm better than you because...", will do.

Wubbies,

Lori

I don't think that christianity will ever die, from one generation to another there will always be that hope amongs idiots to be saved from who the hell knows what? As if they have found an aswer to beat death.

As long as there are wars, and seems many will come our way specially with neo-cons and christian right-wingers waging it upon an invisible enemy they've yet to identify, only knows as "terrorists" of which they may be brooding in mainland China or Russia for all we know, these people are here to bring armegeddon, the zeal of these idiots is to dwindle the population of earth and they have the power to do so, as long as people with their heads stuck up their ass let it happen examples here are; well I don't need to mention it just look at their idiotic posts supporting war, and the neo-cons.

It is true that the primitive moral teachings of the christian faith has brought forth a moral standard; sadly they seem to have forgotten this and just aid the freaking people who crusified their own savior, in totally trying to commit genocide of a population of Palestines, for more dessert lands. If these sob's who proclaimed to be christian had any freaking common sense they would see the similarity between the state of Israel and Nazis. The Nazis of course murdered thousands of jews, and now jews are doing the same with the same ferocity to the peoples of Palestine. *Just in* my bad!; not all Israelis are included in the mindless killings of Palestinians. http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/01/278573.shtml

And then we have visions of a religious nature; here's a freaking fool who believes he knows what jesus looks like, and of all things this image is seen in a frying pan..LOL.:

http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0201/4150534_200X150.jpg

http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/food/4150919/detail.html

It seems that Christianity jumped from the fire into the frying pan. :D

Godless.


Organized religion as we know it today will be blown to smithereens in the end times. It's demise is described very plainly in the Book of Revelation. And I hope that my life will be used as an implement of it's destruction. Let the truth be shown. Amen.

Love,

Lori

Organized religion as we know it today will be blown to smithereens in the end times. It's demise is described very plainly in the Book of Revelation. And I hope that my life will be used as an implement of it's destruction. Let the truth be shown. Amen.

Lori; I respect you, you've been through hell and back again, however the book of revelations was written to happen withing the time frame of the apostles, the shit never happened, it's been 2500 years! It will never happen. it's time to start a new, and leave the rhetorical bullshiet that men with crazy zeal just might want to pull off!.

Godless.

Lori; I respect you, you've been through hell and back again, however the book of revelations was written to happen withing the time frame of the apostles, the shit never happened, it's been 2500 years! It will never happen. it's time to start a new, and leave the rhetorical bullshiet that men with crazy zeal just might want to pull off!.

Godless.

Well thank you Godless...I appreciate that. Honestly though...it's all relative, and I've not been through anything worse than anyone else. We're all in this together, you know? My life has been a walk in the park compared to some. And lately...man, it's been weird! Weird but amazing...amazingly wonderful...a little challenging, but isn't everthing that's worth having?

Listen, I'm very aware of the fact that it sounds crazy, but it's the truth...honest to God, and I swear on my life...I'm telling the truth. That lately, and because of this miracle that I've experienced...this spiritual occurrence...interaction...whatever you want to call it...much of Revelations prophecy has been revealed to me by God Himself...to me and to this man who's also involved. We're not talking about something that men will be able to pull off...men will simply follow blindly as they always do. The leadership will be demonic, and not of this world. The deception will be perpetuated by the nephilim, posing as aliens from outer space. They will claim to be our creators and our saviours. The mark of the beast will be a genetic alteration that they will administer. One that will give eternal life to your flesh (the only way to destroy it will be by fire...disintegration), and kill your spirit (cutting it off completely from God). A false rebirth...a rebirth not of the Holy Spirit as Jesus spoke of, but of the flesh, as He warned against.

I know it sounds nuts right now, but in time you will see that what I've experienced is real, and that what I'm telling you is the truth.

Love you,

Lori

You've already conceded the point twice - "You cannot know" = all definitions are mere conjecture.
no more then the atheists have conceded their point. They cannot know and so cannot say. Agnostics are the true scientists if anyone is. But the atheists are no more scientific the most hard-core religious fanatic.


You cannot choose sides if you believe in science and so cannot choose atheism or <any religion> if you presume to have religion backing you up.


The simple question is 'how much does the backing of science mean to you?' If you concede that atheism is as much faith as any religion, then you maintain your balance with science. If you do not, then concede that high ground and are no different then any religious group that proclaims themselves "the one true faith." Such beliefs are not uncommon and aren't worth wasting time disproving... at least not on my part.


To whatever you choose...

Love and peace, Karmashock.

*************
M*W: Everytime I go to B&N I find evermore referenced materials on the falsification of Christianity. It makes me wonder, what will Christians do when their faith has been proven to be false? My guess is that, of course, they will be in denial as some already are. BINGO and hence they will continue to believe. I told a freind recently that I didn't beleive in any God and the first question out of his mouth was - than what happens whenyou die?

So I think that Xianity will stop along with most other religions when humans no longer age and die. At that point I think you'll find an increase in eastern philosophical religions like Tao but Xianity, Islam, etc . .. . bye bye

Only when Christianity falls will there be the possibility of World Peace.The Greeks, Romans, etc ., . all fought wars and killed one another pre-Xiantiy. Native Amercians killed one another pre-Xianity, and least we forget ALL of Asia as well.

Me you an the average citizen arent evil......but our foreign policies could easily be seen as evil by someone living under a repressive regime supported by the US.....ask a Iraqi living under Sadaam prior to 1990 if the US was evil for supporting him(especally one that was gassed by US posion he was given)The pre-gas componets came from Germany and France, only the satalite directions on where and when to use it on the Iranians came from the US.