To the atheists/agnostics: You all know i am an atheist myself but lets discuss this from a theists point of view.

I mean really... what was He thinking when He created man. God really screwed up on this one. Mankind is seriously screwing over the rest of His creation.
Is it all a divine experiment gone bad ? He must have known what we would end up doing to earth an everything on it.


Edit: A similar topic but without the involvement of God: http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=70026

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Doesn't make sense, does it?

Not really, so why do you think he created man ?

To the atheists/agnostics: You all know i am an atheist myself but lets discuss this from a theists point of view.

I mean really... what was He thinking when He created man. God really screwed up on this one. Mankind is seriously screwing over the rest of His creation.
Is it all a divine experiment gone bad ? He must have known what we would end up doing to earth an everything on it.

Yes, an interesting point and I almost don't want to respond from an imaginary theist's position so I could have a laugh at some of their actual explanations. But I will do just that because I find it a good intellectual exercise, if just for flippant reasons. So here's an imaginary response from a more thoughtful theist:

The fallibility of the human species was necessary in God's design, because it was seen as a context against which God's righteousness could shine brighter. You can't know what is good if you don't have what is bad, basically. Any good writer knows to include a central problem in a story. ;)

Ooooh I like it!

From OUR perspective....Evil is good.

Yes, an interesting point and I almost don't want to respond from an imaginary theist's position so I could have a laugh at some of their actual explanations. But I will do just that because I find it a good intellectual exercise, if just for flippant reasons. So here's an imaginary response from a more thoughtful theist:

The fallibility of the human species was necessary in God's design, because it was seen as a context against which God's righteousness could shine brighter. You can't know what is good if you don't have what is bad, basically. Any good writer knows to include a central problem in a story. ;)

An interesting point of view. In essence this means God is somewhat of a narcissist. But who can blame Him, He was all by himself for all that time.
And dont worry you will get your chance to respond from an atheist point of view, im sure :)

Ooooh I like it!

From OUR perspective....Evil is good.

That needs well... an explanation. lol

To show glory to god, you gotta show him just how bad you can be...i'm working off Celpha's post.

Good can´t exist without the existence of evil, beautiful cannot exist without the existence of uglyness, love cannot exist without the existence of hate, and light cannot exist without the existence of darkness. It is duality, right and left hand, it is divine knowledge, not human (ape trying to figure out the world) knowledge.

To show glory to god, you gotta show him just how bad you can be...i'm working off Celpha's post.

Oh i see lol
But still, couldnt He just only have created mankind in stead of bothering to make up all the additional animal- and plantlife too ?

Good can´t exist without the existence of evil, beautiful cannot exist without the existence of uglyness, love cannot exist without the existence of hate, and light cannot exist without the existence of darkness. It is duality, right and left hand, it is divine knowledge, not human (ape trying to figure out the world) knowledge.

Ok, but why bother in the first place ? He knew the world would go to.. um.. hell eventually.

An interesting point of view. In essence this means God is somewhat of a narcissist. But who can blame Him, He was all by himself for all that time.
And dont worry you will get your chance to respond from an atheist point of view, im sure :)

Yes he would have to be by definition. It also makes him a bit of a masochist, as he chose pain and suffering as the way to illuminate his goodness.

Oh i see lol
But still, couldnt He just only have created mankind in stead of bothering to make up all the additional animal- and plantlife too ?

No because of the same reason; we must have examples of inanimate life in order to truly know that we ourselves are living radiantly by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! HA! (This is quite fun.)

Oh i see lol
But still, couldnt He just only have created mankind in stead of bothering to make up all the additional animal- and plantlife too ?

If you are going to make a pyramid scheme, you gotta account at least a bit, for the little shits.

No because of the same reason; we must have examples of inanimate life in order to truly know that we ourselves are living radiantly by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit! HA! (This is quite fun.)

Ah yes, but inanimate life ? lol

Ah yes, but inanimate life ? lol

Well yes, biologically speaking, plants are alive.

Ok, but why bother in the first place ? He knew the world would go to.. um.. hell eventually.

Heaven cannot exist without the existence of hell.

If you are going to make a pyramid scheme, you gotta account at least a bit, for the little shits.

Hmm i see, we must have a food source ofcourse. Longtime exposure to mana must have some negative effect on humans :p

Heaven cannot exist without the existence of hell.

Correction, the thought of heaven and hell our dependent upon one another; this does not mean they must both exist simultaneously in experience.

Well yes, biologically speaking, plants are alive.

Yes but doesnt inanimate mean lifeless ? lol

Heaven cannot exist without the existence of hell.

I didnt mean hell literally, i meant the world would go to well hmm, synonym anyone ? ;)

Yes but doesnt inanimate mean lifeless ? lol

I think that's a connotation of it but not strictly a denotation. If you'd like, I could use a clearer adjective...how bout static, as opposed to dynamic?

Heaven cannot exist without the existence of hell.

Seriously though, lots of theists believe in heaven but not in hell. They believe in a loving God (!)

It's the same place

I think that's a connotation of it but not strictly a denotation. If you'd like, I could use a clearer adjective...how bout static, as opposed to dynamic?

Agreed.

Seriously though, lots of theists believe in heaven but not in hell. They believe in a loving God (!)

God IS Love my friend, but hate is necessary for love to exist. To live in the frequency of love 24/7 is to live in the language of God.

God IS Love my friend, but hate is necessary for love to exist. To live in the frequency of love 24/7 is to live in the language of God.

Once again, the idea of hate is required for the idea of love. You can retain the idea of hate yet experience love totally.

I would like to volunteer to provide the hate that would help fuel Wisdom Seeker's Love.

Hey someone's gotta do it...

I would like to volunteer to provide the hate that would help fuel Wisdom Seeker's Love.

Hey someone's gotta do it...

lol

So the standing conclusion up to this point is:
God created man with the intention to for man to screw up their surroundings and He did this with the intention to make Himself look better.

There is one problem with that. Who is he trying to impress ? There is noone else but the humans he created to look good.

God never intended for man to destroy his surroundings, it was man alone who did that, no divine help needed.

There is one problem with that. Who is he trying to impress ? There is noone else but the humans he created to look good
Who else, but the super entity that did this all before.

God never intended for man to destroy his surroundings, it was man alone who did that, no divine help needed.

But God is allknowing, so He must have known beforehand.

So the standing conclusion up to this point is:
God created man with the intention to for man to screw up their surroundings and He did this with the intention to make Himself look better.

There is one problem with that. Who is he trying to impress ? There is noone else but the humans he created to look good.

Or, "...He did this with the intention to make Himself look good in the first place", not necessarily just "better". Perhaps he was trying to impress fellow members of his God-species. That may be the only other answer aside from just humanity itself.

God never intended for man to destroy his surroundings, it was man alone who did that, no divine help needed.

And God would have created/allowed for the capacity for destructive qualities in humans to begin with...

Who else, but the super entity that did this all before.

But no doubt he did it for the same... ah hmm lol :D

And God would have created/allowed for the capacity for destructive qualities in humans to begin with...

Especially since He is infallible.

Or, "...He did this with the intention to make Himself look good in the first place", not necessarily just "better". Perhaps he was trying to impress fellow members of his God-species. That may be the only other answer aside from just humanity itself.

Yep, this maybe true. Does the bible mention other Gods ?

Yep, this maybe true. Does the bible mention other Gods ?

Yes it does, even in the celebrated ten commandments. The time of Old Testament writings, there were several Gods competing for recognition, and this admonishment was made to keep the Jews from flirting with gods of other tribes. This is further evident in accounts in the OT of wars; the side who won a battle was able to further promote their respective god(s) as the dominant one. Of course this isn't as frequent these days, so the original commandment is now taken through a more spiritual lens; these "other gods" are what we try to worship in the place of God (often drugs, sex, rock'n'roll, etc from the mouth of the common preacher).

There are actually some passages that suggest we ourselves are gods (always carefully not capitalized), I think there is a recent thread in here about that.

Everybody likes to have total free will; but some argue that there is too much evil in the world, duh there is free will. If the world would be all laughs and love, then there would be no free will whatsoever, and there would be no births and deaths because everything would already be created, then what else is next to create?
Human intelligence cannot possibly match the creator of humans intelligence.

Everybody likes to have total free will; but some argue that there is too much evil in the world, duh there is free will. If the world would be all laughs and love, then there would be no free will whatsoever, and there would be no births and deaths because everything would already be created, then what else is next to create?
Human intelligence cannot possibly match the creator of humans intelligence.

::Raises hand:: I have a question. How are you, operating by human intelligence which you say is inferior, so able to read so acutely into the mind of this Creator?

::Raises hand:: I have a question. How are you, operating by human intelligence which you say is inferior, so able to read so acutely into the mind of this Creator?

I just know that we cannot possibly understand God, or even question His creations. I don´t have the arrogance to go and think that I can have it all figured out.

It seems to me like fish trying to debate on how the ocean was created.

I´m only a fish that says that we cannot possibly understand that.

...just swim with the current fellows...

I just know that we cannot possibly understand God, or even question His creations. I don´t have the arrogance to go and think that I can have it all figured out.

It seems to me like fish trying to debate on how the ocean was created.

I´m only a fish that says that we cannot possibly understand that.

But the bible gives a perfect account of how the earth was created.

But the bible gives a perfect account of how the earth was created.

And do you take all that the Bible says literally?
Or do you even believe in the Bible? Cause I have my doubts...

I just know that we cannot possibly understand God, or even question His creations. I don´t have the arrogance to go and think that I can have it all figured out.

It seems to me like fish trying to debate on how the ocean was created.

I´m only a fish that says that we cannot possibly understand that.

Yes but I think as you do this, you simultaneously discount the tremendously incredible discoveries that humans, sitting in one corner of one galaxy (of perhaps one universe!) have made concerning the universe and its fundamental properties and constants. What science alone has given us is much like a fish, not debating, but discovering how the ocean was created, or how it works if that inquiry is more satisfying to you. I see even more corollary with this and the "mind of God" as several influential and great scientific thinkers have regarded the whole of science as the pursuit of the mind of God. By discovering the way things work, you have (if you believe in a God) understood his blueprints for his entire creation and poetically placed your foot in his footprint. That is stupendously inspiring and I think a fair point to consider in response to your claim that we would never be able to know the mind of God.

If there was a Book that contains all the truth of God, it would be as big as God. Or even better would be to put all the words of all the languages of Earth and put a note in the Book intro. that says: "mix all the following words randomly".

And do you take all that the Bible says literally?
Or do you even believe in the Bible? Cause I have my doubts...

I dont, but we are discussing this from a theists point of view. See OP.

So which parts of the bible are we to take literally and which not ?

Yes but I think as you do this, you simultaneously discount the tremendously incredible discoveries that humans, sitting in one corner of one galaxy (of perhaps one universe!) have made concerning the universe and its fundamental properties and constants. What science alone has given us is much like a fish, not debating, but discovering how the ocean was created, or how it works if that inquiry is more satisfying to you. I see even more corollary with this and the "mind of God" as several influential and great scientific thinkers have regarded the whole of science as the pursuit of the mind of God. By discovering the way things work, you have (if you believe in a God) understood his blueprints for his entire creation and poetically placed your foot in his footprint. That is stupendously inspiring and I think a fair point to consider in response to your claim that we would never be able to know the mind of God.

I never discounted the discoveries of science, I´m all in favor of science.

On the other hand, it is men´s ego to think that we can figure it out. I would have to tell you to give that search out, because it will lead you nowhere.

Imagine a more evolved organism from us, like if hipothetically humans survive a million years, we would evolve into a more advanced organism. Off course that that being would see us the way we see chimps.
And I don´t even think that a highly evolved organism would even begin to grasp the concept of God, and they certainly would be smarter and more knowledgeable than us; but still not enought to figure it all out.

I dont, but we are discussing this from a theists point of view. See OP.

So which parts of the bible are we to take literally and which not ?

I´m a theist, and no Book can tell me what or what not to believe.

I´m a theist, and no Book can tell me what or what not to believe.

Hmm yeah but where did your belief come from then ? Its not something you made up, you got the notion of God directly or indirectly from the bible.

Hmm yeah but where did your belief come from then ? Its not something you made up, you got the notion of God directly or indirectly from the bible.

Certainly not the Bible, but more from enlightened beings.

And some random logic; put everything together, and I mean EVERYTHING; that unity is God.

I never discounted the discoveries of science, I´m all in favor of science.

On the other hand, it is men´s ego to think that we can figure it out. I would have to tell you to give that search out, because it will lead you nowhere.

Imagine a more evolved organism from us, like if hipothetically humans survive a million years, we would evolve into a more advanced organism. Off course that that being would see us the way we see chimps.
And I don´t even think that a highly evolved organism would even begin to grasp the concept of God, and they certainly would be smarter and more knowledgeable than us; but still not enought to figure it all out.

Well this is all on the assumption that God exists in the first place, which you know by now I disagree with. In my opinion, I totally agree with you that we will never know the mind of God; how can we understand the mind of anything that doesn't exist? But using the theist's terms as Enmos has established, and especially given your appreciation of science, don't you think that it is worth finding out if we can peek into the mind of God or not instead of just dismissing it out front? It seems you're saying you'd rather believe in something that requires no effort than to try and potentially get there via hard applied work.

I just know that we cannot possibly understand God, or even question His creations. I don´t have the arrogance to go and think that I can have it all figured out.

It seems to me like fish trying to debate on how the ocean was created.

I´m only a fish that says that we cannot possibly understand that.

But you seem to have enough understanding (arrogance?) to repeatedly assert that God is love and claim that as the absolute truth. Doesn't that make you more similar to the fish trying to debate instead of the fish who says we can't possibly understand?

I see God as a lonely child. He made everything to entertain himself. He made humans so that they could say "Wow! You did a good job" He needed validation and he throws temper tantrums (the flood, Sodom, kicking Lucifer out) just like a child.

Certainly not the Bible, but more from enlightened beings.

Enlightened beings that got it from the bible, as i said directly or indirectly.

I see God as a lonely child. He made everything to entertain himself. He made humans so that they could say "Wow! You did a good job" He needed validation and he throws temper tantrums (the flood, Sodom, kicking Lucifer out) just like a child.

So He really needed to create human because He is insecure and needed to see that He could do something good ?
On the other hand, He created humans in such a way that we would have free will, which would enable us to destroy His other creations. And ultimately probably themselves. I see no logic in that unless it was his plan to only let it last for so long, like a build-in timer. Remember, God is all-knowing and all-powerful. So He did know beforehand it would turn out like this and He could do something about if He wants.
This is what confuses me.

perfection is boring. Throw in a little free will, things perk up a bit.

and he can always create more. All those other dimensions. All those other planets. I imagine we are like a zoo. Earthlings are poo flinging monkeys.

perfection is boring. Throw in a little free will, things perk up a bit.

and he can always create more. All those other dimensions. All those other planets. I imagine we are like a zoo. Earthlings are poo flinging monkeys.

Bottomline: God has no purpose ;)

Bottomline: God has no purpose ;)

agree.
he's a doer, not a thinker.

Enlightened beings that got it from the bible, as i said directly or indirectly.

Not quite.

Zarathustra lived around 2000 BC - 1000 BC, he was enlightened. Gautam Buddha at 500 BC. Not counting Thot (Hermes), Shiva, Krishna, Shakti, Enoc... whos date was lost in antiquity.

As a matter of fact, no enlightened man has ever gotten his knowledge from the Bible.

Not quite.

Zarathustra lived around 2000 BC - 1000 BC, he was enlightened. Gautam Buddha at 500 BC. Not counting Thot (Hermes), Shiva, Krishna, Shakti, Enoc... whos date was lost in antiquity.

As a matter of fact, no enlightened man has ever gotten his knowledge from the Bible.

Fair enough. So what belief do you have ?

Fair enough. So what belief do you have ?

The truth told by all of these fellows.

I believe in the potential of every person to become a Buddha; and I believe that the only obstacle towards that goal is the trash we collect during our life and it is cleansed after death. As a fact, I believe in Karma (cause and effect), how it transcends only 1 life for an individual, and how it affects the circumstances of your future experiences. I believe in free will in life, as well as free will in the after life (conditioned by our past actions).

The truth told by all of these fellows.

I believe in the potential of every person to become a Buddha; and I believe that the only obstacle towards that goal is the trash we collect during our life and it is cleansed after death. As a fact, I believe in Karma (cause and effect), how it transcends only 1 life for an individual, and how it affects the circumstances of your future experiences. I believe in free will in life, as well as free will in the after life (conditioned by our past actions).

Sounds respectable :)

Sounds respectable :)

Well, I wouldn´t be shocked if all this is proven wrong, ´cause I think is just the explanation of something much more complex. But even if I tell you that which I believe, I think that the most important thing is to live in the frequency of compassion towards all life.
The explanation of how the Universe works is complex, but is simple if you put it in the basis of an ordinary life. There is creation and there is destruction, there is love and hate; you can either live in the realm of love & creation or in the one of hate & destruction.

what if we were sent here not to be good or evil, but to figure out the existence of the universe?.


he wanted to see if an animal could actualy figure out the mystery of the universe without help. and he doesent give a shit about pain suffering or happiness for us. just lets us get on with it. we are like entertainment to him.


and he might reward us with an afterlife for everyone who is conscious, because he is good sport.

r what if god himself doesent even know how the universe was created. he is confused about how he did it, so he created us to figure it out for him.


peace.

perhaps were wern't created, perhaps were just a mistake?

Hm i have a problem with any religion that has a 'He' in it.
I respect religions (if they are indeed religions) like Buddhism and the likes much more. As also beliefs like the Native Indians had.

Edit: I guess natural religions in general. :)

"I believe in God, only I spell it Nature." ~Frank Lloyd Wright

what if we were sent here not to be good or evil, but to figure out the existence of the universe?.

Would you put a monkey in a research for Quantum Physics? God knows better.

The Universe is mind, and we are just atoms.

perhaps were wern't created, perhaps were just a mistake?

Perhaps, but we would still be created albeit by accident.. ;)

perhaps were wern't created, perhaps were just a mistake?


agree agree
Just like my youngest child. One great big happy mistake. :D

agree agree
Just like my youngest child. One great big happy mistake. :D

lol, yeah i know that feeling!!

Not quite.

Zarathustra lived around 2000 BC - 1000 BC, he was enlightened. Gautam Buddha at 500 BC. Not counting Thot (Hermes), Shiva, Krishna, Shakti, Enoc... whos date was lost in antiquity.

As a matter of fact, no enlightened man has ever gotten his knowledge from the Bible.
*************
M*W: What is the significance of the name Zarathustra? What does it mean?

It's the Avestan(old Iranian) name. Hmm I guess that does make it the orignal name. Zoroaster is the greek.

*zarat-uštra-, which is in turn "perhaps"