Most recent posts try to excuse or blame Israel for it actions in Lebanon. Lets try something different in this thread.

Before the war in Lebanon started I made several suggestions, as I do not think the policy of either side is in their long term interest.

I think Israel should adopt more purely defensive means to protect it citizens. I pointed out that:

It has used CIWS to defend its ships for more than 30 years and could deploy them near urban centers. They can shoot down super-sonic sea skimmers in their modern form. Zero arching sub-sonic missiles would find their targets. Israel even has some US Patriot anti-ICBM capacity, should it come to that, but needs many of these cheaper CIWS defenses for smaller towns.

I also suggested that modern computers and cheap radars could guide automatic counter fire batteries to "shred any living thing"* that happened to be near the site of the rockets launched from Gaza. Even in WWII, prior to radar, three acoustic sensor located the source of enemy fire (by time of sound arrival). The 155-caliber mobile artillery US has supplied Israel was designed to "shoot and scoot" for this reason when it was thought it would be used against the USSR in Europe, but in current use it can safely remain at a fixed site and with "forward observers" repeatedly lay rounds within meters of each other on the aim point.

The fact that Israel does not chose to protect it its citizens by these and other means, indicates that Israel, like its enemy, is more interested in killing the enemy than saving Israeli lives.

The relative birth rates show that even with a 20 to 1 kill ratio in Israel's favor, in the end the Biblical Armageddon will be the result, with millions dead. - Israel and much of the ME destroyed, unless there is a change in policy. I.e. Offense is not the best defense, in this case, if you take a longer view.

Israel will lose even the support of the US if the ME does go up in flames:

If the ME goes up in flames all will be the losers, the world economy will collapse as US dollar will folds, wiping out most advanced economies. Dollar will fold as the economy of the US is built on consumers, willing and able to spend, but when oil is in such short supply that it must be rationed, Wal-Mart etc. will close its doors, North Carolina will not sell furniture, etc. Even the chaos of total social collapse may occur if well armed, but hungry, bands can not be controlled. Too little food is locally produced in US and its "suburban infrastructure" is ill designed to cope with a serious shortage of liquid fuel. Certainly, if even a small part of this happens, US support for Israel will end and Israel will be destroyed, but not before making millions of dead "martyrs."

Israel was created on others lands but so was the US and it certainly now has the right to exist and defend itself. I am only asking how it should do so and asking for others to try to answer in this thread, as I have.
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*Counter battery fire made with in seconds after flame out of the rocket incomming from Gaza, well before it even reaches peak altitude is easily possible. Stop the current routine "preventive shelling" of empty lots and the associated killing of innnocents.

Build a 100' wall around Isreal with big 'go away' signs. Maybe a couple of mean dogs.

http://img92.imageshack.us/img92/9330/3710320zu5.jpg

Excellent thread idea and post BillyT. The whole Israel-Palestine problem is a horrible mess that in agreement with you I don't think either side has handled in a fashion that is in thier long term best interest. A defensive stance forthe Israelis would absolutely be a better alternative to thier current policy but a viable alternative is also needed for the Palestinians that are now forced to live under Israeli rule (which we know is far from egalitarian). Until Palestinians get a real fair shake there will not be peace.

Build a 100' wall around Isreal with big 'go away' signs. Maybe a couple of mean dogs.You are trying to be funny, but I also suggested this in a slightly different form (no dogs however). - I think a simple pair of fences, only couple of meters high, made of wire, one on the 1967 border line and the other parallel to it inside Israel about 30m distant from the first would be very useful for a few generations. The fences are to keep children, too young to read warning signs etc. from either side out of the mine field between the fences.

Humor is always welcome, but I think this may be more serious for all advanced countries than most can believe, if US economy tanks with too little oil to maintain the suburban infrastructure it has built on cheap gas.

...a viable alternative is also needed for the Palestinians that are now forced to live under Israeli rule ...That is so obviously true I failed to state it. Thanks. I am sure the international community could better afford to set up and assist for a decade or two a viable Palestine state at much less cost than a collapse of the US dollar, which is where we seem to be heading.

There are many legal precedents, in the South Seas and else where for protectorates. I think East Timor may be one also. Not sure, but your point is well taken and relatively easy to achieve.

No im serious. 100' wall. 20' thick. Think of the jobs that would be created.

The only way for peace in that region is to keep everyone away from each other.

No im serious. 100' wall. 20' thick. Think of the jobs that would be created. The only way for peace in that region is to keep everyone away from each other.I agree with last sentence, at least until a generation grows up on both sides without fear of the other, but minefield between wire fence would cost 99.9% less and be MORE effective.

Have you ever done any rock-wall scaling by ropes and “pitons” - I have, when younger. "Repelling down" again is worth the climb. Your wall would require constant 24 hour patrol - too expensive both to build and operate.

Israel should build a wall like that between East and West Germany and withdraw from the occupied territories. Anyone that comes over the wall will be killed. If any extremist settlers want to stay, that's their problem, they will no longer be protected.

The fact that Israel does not chose to protect it its citizens by these and other means, indicates that Israel, like its enemy, is more interested in killing the enemy than saving Israeli lives.
I think that's wrong. These technological defense systems are not completely reliable. I think some of these are already deployed, but they are not a comprehensive defense.

As history since Hiroshima shows, the best, perhaps the only, way to curb war is to deter it with such overwhelming force as to turn it from a struggle into suicide. The best way to mitigate it is to use all possible means to bring it to a speedy end...

Martin Van Creveld

"As history since Hiroshima shows, the best, perhaps the only, way to curb war is to deter it with such overwhelming force as to turn it from a struggle into suicide. The best way to mitigate it is to use all possible means to bring it to a speedy end...

Martin Van Creveld"

Only works with people who are afraid to die.
This is one aspect about Muslims that the West and Israel fail to understand.

And they insist on having their way, and they are willing to die killing us, how should we deal with them, if we don't become Moslem the kill us, if we become the wrong sect of Moslem, they kill us, if we don't want to kill Israelis they want to kill us, if were don't get out of the middle east they want to kill us, if we don't pay them protection money they want to kill us, it seems the only answer to them is to kill us, now Sam tell me how do you deal with a mind set that want to die if it don't get it way?

Israel should build a wall like that between East and West Germany and withdraw from the occupied territories. Anyone that comes over the wall will be killed. If any extremist settlers want to stay, that's their problem, they will no longer be protected.

I think that's wrong. These technological defense systems are not completely reliable. I think some of these are already deployed, but they are not a comprehensive defense.Killing wall crossers is pretty much automatic if the mine field border I suggest were selected. How do you propose to be sure to kill all "wall crossers" on a dark night along a long border wall?

The old CIWS systems did sometimes jam, but modern ones, especially if firing rate were slightly reduced (no need for the high rate of fire required for high assurance stopping a super sonic sea skimmer*) should be 100% reliable agains slow arching high Gaza rockets, certainly 1,000% more relaible than Israel's current "defense" of the citys by trying to kill the enemy. - That just seems to make more enemy will to die.
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*You have at least 40 seconds to stop Gaza rocket, not only five as when the mach 3 sea skimmer pops up over the horizons at two meters altitiude. Also you do not need to slew the gun much as you already know the general direction from which it will come. I.e. with a modern CIWS, knocking down 100% is easy and relaible.

Support you infered claim that what Israel is currently doing is better protection for Israelis.

Perhaps dogs in an inner fence area is a good idea after all. I.e.

non- Israel area
-------------------------------------Two meter wire fence along 1967 border line
Mine field area

--------------------------------------- ~ 30 meter set back inside Israel (low no dog jump fence)

killer dogs area

--------------------------------------Two meter wire fence 50m from 1967 border

Israel safe area

I was about to start a new thread in the politics forum along similar lines but decided to post here instead.
When I saw the thread title: "What should Israel do?" I thought of the question in a different way.

The way I see it is that the middle east is in a hopeless bind. To sum up what I am sure others have said before the problem can be simply stated as a question ;

"Where should Israel go?"

Is there empty lands any where on the planet that can support a nation with out threatening the title to that land of other nations? [ No, is the answer I guess]

To me it is obvious that Israel's occupation of someone elses land is the main cause of grievance. With out getting into recriminations etc. the problem seems so simple, yet the answer to the problem is extremely complex and difficult.
I see that the only solution is an evolution of tolerance that is needed on all sides.

So Israel has it's back against the wall and is fighting for it's survival as it knows that there is no where it as a nation would be welcome so it may as well stay where it is.. [ would be the over all attitude I assume ]

Of course the same question can be asked of the Palestinian nation as well, "Where should they go?"

Billy T, sorry for the thread diversion, and BTW I agree with your suggested defensive approach to the immediate or short term situation.

How ever I wonder how this problem of post ww2 occupation of someone elses land can be resolved.

Maybe I have over simplified and shown my ignorance. If so I would gladly wish to be corrected.

Northern Australia's fairly empty. I'd feel bad doing that to the Aussies though, they're a good lot.

Next up we have Atlantis. I'm sure we could commission a few cruise ships to take them there and drop them off.

New York could probably take an extra few million, too.

What Should Israel Do?

Detonate a nuke in Jerusalem and remove forever that monument to human failure. Preferrably a non-radio-active nuke. I'd only want a 30 mile perimeter of the city erased.

to QQ (and others):

Glad you also feel Israel should adopt a more “purely defensive” policy, as I am suggesting, and drop its current idea that "offense is the best defense."

I also agree with you that there is no option, (despite the great open expanses of Austral*) for moving Israel to new location. The Jewish people have long though of the area they are now in as their natural homeland. I believe that for centuries, something like "Next year in Jerusalem" has been a greeting wish or statement of optimism common among them.**
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*As I think state of Israel is guilty of several war crimes, sending Israeli leadership there would be in keeping with Australia's origins/history as a destination for criminals.

**My best friend in high school was the rabies’ son. I have even attended the rabies’ Yuan Kippur diner once, where his younger brother gave the traditional speech, which begins: "Why is this night different from all other nights? ...", I have learned how to put on "tifilin" (two small black boxes with leather straps) to make the symbol for God in my fingers etc. I have served as "shickengle." - The family’s gentile who could turn off the lights etc after dark on Friday. -Easy job, except after late Friday afternoon fishing trips, when only I could clean the fish. I admire and know more than most non-Jews about that humanistic and non-proselytizing faith.

In general, I admire all cultures that promote learning and the Jewish culture may well be at the top of that group. (I have miss-spelled some Yiddish words phonetically that I have never seen written from very old memories - perhaps a real Jew will spell them correctly for me.) I am, however, surprised and outraged by the current actions of the State of Israel. Israel’s leaders are, IMHO, in violation of the teaching of their faith, perhaps even more than GWB is in violation of American ideals.

Perhaps Israel should try a new revolutionary tacttic.

Diplomacy!

Years ago I read some where that Australia, in particular the state of Tasmania [ most southern state ~island ] was considered as a potential settlement for post WW2 displaced persons of Jewish faith [ race] prior to the eventual exodus to it's current location. It was a book on the issue of displaced persons and unfortunatley I can not recall Author or title. I believe even at the time the Australian Government was not overly concerned with the idea, as it was desparate for migrants to come to Australia any way. However I would think that any attempt to build an independant state of Israel would be seriously rejected by said government.

Please treat the above as bordering on gossip.
It is also worth considering that the future of USA foriegn policy should also be more defensive than it's current.
I sometimes think that the Japanese have it almost right. A little isolationism and strong ecconomic influencers and strong defensive posture.

The Israel government seems to be reacting in similar ways to that of the USA government. Thus Israel has USA sanctions by default. [ I don't mean to imply that the killing of innocent civilians is USA policy either BTW]
It does appear that Israel is less concerned with this issue of collateral damage though.

Zakaryia here is a time line what do you call the green highlighted sections, I call them diplomacy and good faith, especially Aug. 15 - Aug. 24, 2005

Concise Overview of Recent Israeli-Palestinian History
Nov 2, 1917 British issued the Balfour Declaration, viewed by Jews and Arabs as promising a “National Home” for the Jews in Palestine.

1936-1939 Arab Revolt led by Haj Amin Al-Husseini. Over 5,000 Arabs were killed according to some sources, mostly by British. Several hundred Jews were killed by Arabs. Husseini fled to Iraq and then to Nazi Germany.

May 15, 1948 Israel War of Independence (1948 War). Declaration of Israel as the Jewish State; British leave Palestine; Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, Saudi Arabia declared war on Israel. Egyptian, Syrian and Jordanian invasion began.

April 3, 1949 Armistice - Israel and Arab states agree to armistice. Israel gained about 50% more territory than was originally allotted to it by the UN Partition Plan. [/COLOR]

Oct. 29, 1956 Suez Campaign. In retaliation for a series of escalating border raids as well as the closure of the straits of Tiran and Suez canal to Israeli shipping, and to prevent Egyptian use of newly acquired Soviet arms in a war, Israel invades the Sinai peninsula and occupies it for several months, with French and British collaboration.

May, 1964 PLO (Palestine Liberation Organization) founded with the aim of destroying Israel. The Palestinian National Charter (1968) officially called for liquidation of Israel.

May, 1967 Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser closes the straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping and dismisses UN peacekeeping force. Negotiations with US to reopen the Straits of Tiran fail.

June 5-10,1967 6-day war . Israel destroys the Egyptian air force on the ground, conquers and occupies Sinai and Gaza, then conquers the West Bank from Jordan, and Golan Heights from Syria. UN resolution 242 called for Israeli withdrawal, establishment of peace.

Oct. 6, 1973 Yom Kippur War (October War). In a surprise attack on the Jewish day of atonement, Egypt retook the Suez canal and a narrow zone on the other side. Syria reconquered the Golan Heights. Following massive US and Soviet resupplying of the sides, Israel succeeded in pushing back the Syrians and threatening Damascus. In Sinai, the IDF crossed the Suez Canal and cut off the Egyptian Third Army.

]March 26, 1979 Peace treaty signed between Egypt and Israel. [/COLOR]

June 7, 1981 Israel destroys Iraqi nuclear reactor in daring raid.

Oct. 6, 1981 Egyptian President Anwar Sadat is assassinated while on the reviewing stand of a victory parade.

June 6, 1982 Massive Israeli invasion of Lebanon to fight PLO.

Sept. 13, 1993 Oslo Declaration of Principles - Israel and PLO agree to mutual recognition.

Sept 28, 1995 Oslo Interim Agreement signed. Palestinian Authority to be established.

Nov. 4, 1995 Israeli PM Yitzhak Rabin assassinated by right-wing Israeli fanatic Yigal Amir. Rabin is replaced by Shimon Peres

June, 1996 Right-Wing Likud leader Benjamin Netanyahu elected Prime Minister in Israel, replacing Shimon Peres.

Sept, 1996 "Al-Aksa tunnel riots - Arab sources spread the false rumor that a gate opened in an underground tunnel tourist attraction by the Israeli government, endangered the foundations of the Al-Aqsa mosque. This caused several days of rioting and numerous casualties.
Jan 18, 1997 Israel and Palestinians reach agreement on Israeli redeployment in the West-Bank city of Hebron

Oct. 1998 Wye River Plantation talks result in an agreement for Israeli redeployment and release of political prisoners and renewed Palestinian commitment to correct its violations of the Oslo accords including excess police force, illegal arms and incitement in public media and education.

May 17, 1999 Israel elects Labor party leader and Former General Ehud Barak as Prime Minister in a landslide. Barak promises rapid progress toward peace.

March, 2000 Israeli-Syrian peace negotiations fail when Hafez Assad rejects an Israeli offer relayed by US President Clinton in Geneva.

Sept. 28, 2000 Palestinians initiated riots after Israeli opposition leader Ariel Sharon visited the Temple Mount, which is also the location of the Haram as Sharif holy to Muslims.

Sept. 11, 2001 Terror attacks on World Trade Center in NYC and the Pentagon carried out by fanatic Islamic Al-Qaida group headed by Osama Bin Laden initiate US war on terror. Israel and Palestinians agree to a cease fire, but it is not implemented.

Feb 6, 2001 Right-wing Likud leader Ariel Sharon elected Prime Minister in Israel replacing Ehud Barak and promising "peace and security."

March-April 2002 Israel conducts operation Defensive Wall in the West Bank, following a large number of Palestinian suicide attacks on civilian targets. Saudi peace initiative adopted at Beirut summit.

Jan 28, 2003 Elections in Israel give wide margin (40 seats) to right wing Likud party, returning PM Ariel Sharon for another term.

March 19,2003 US begins invasion of Iraq by a strike against a building where Saddam Hussein and other leaders are meeting. Baghdad falls, April 9.

July 9, 2004 International court of Justice (ICJ) rules that the Israeli security barrier violates international law and must be torn down.

Nov 11, 2004 Palestinian Authority President Yasser Arafat dies.

Jan 9, 2005 Mahmoud Abbas elected President of the Palestinian National Authority.

Jan 10, 2005 Ariel Sharon forms unity government with Labor and United Torah Judaism parties in Israel.

April 2005 Ariel Sharon visits US President George Bush at his Texas ranch. Syrian Army leaves Lebanon, officially ending Syrian occupation.

May 26, 2005 Mahmud Abbas visits US President George Bush at the White House, an important symbolic gesture signaling US backing for Abbas and Palestinian aspirations. Israel releases 400 Palestinian prisoners including some with blood on their hands. Britain confirms "low level" negotiations with Hamas.

June, 2005 Violence flares in Gaza. US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice visits Palestinian and Israeli leaders to ensure coordination of Israeli withdrawal from Gaza. Israeli PM Ariel Sharon and Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Jerusalem June 21. Sharon announces that Palestinians have promised to coordinate regarding Gaza withdrawal. PM Abbas postpones Palestinian legislative elections in order to change the election law, amidst growing concern that Hamas will trounce Abbas's Fatah party in the elections. Lebanese elections give a decisive majority to the opposition to Syria, led by Saad Hariri, son of slain leader Rafiq Hariri.

Aug. 15, 2005 Disengagement - Israeli evacuation of Gaza settlements and four West Bank settlements began on August 15 and was completed August 24.

Why did the Israelis evacuate?

Israel: Palestinian State Shelved with U.S. Blessing
by Mark Heinrich | Reuters | 6 October 2004

JERUSALEM (Reuters) - Israel's plan to withdraw from occupied Gaza will prevent a Palestinian state emerging and freeze peacemaking, and all with Washington's approval, a key adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Wednesday.

Adviser Dov Weisglass effectively dismissed an international "road map" peace plan.

His remarks, coinciding with a massive Israeli offensive into Gaza, will help Sharon win over far-right foes opposed to Gaza "disengagement" and challenging his grip on power.

"The significance of our disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process. It supplies the formaldehyde necessary so there is no political process with Palestinians," Dov Weisglass said in an interview published in Haaretz daily Wednesday.

"When you freeze the process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state ... Effectively, this whole package called a Palestinian state, with all it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda," Weisglass said.

Palestinian leaders say "disengagement" is a gambit to dash their statehood dream by confining 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank to patches of land separated by settlement blocs.

http://www.monabaker.com/pMachine/more.php?id=A2328_0_1_0_M

So the Palestinians couldn't have stopped the attacks and let peace settle in and then continue with diplomatic negations? There is a old saw that you get more fly's with honey than you do with vinegar, and the Arabs always seem to use the vinegar approach.

To buffalo Roam, et.al.

I will agree that Israel has made several "good faith" offers and agreement, but only recently, and reluctantly has accepted the need for a limited* Palestine state. I think the same is true to some extent of the negotiators on the other side. In some case, Egypt & and Jordan being the most important, real progress towards peace has been achieved.

However, to discuss only your last point:

The settlers, recently removed for Gaza were to a large extent, just relocated into the West Bank lands, Israel is taking as its own, beyond the 1967 borders. When the wall was first proposed and obviously expanding Israel beyond these 1967 borders, if was very common for the wall proponents to note that the wall can be taken down, and does not represent expansion, only an effort to gain some security while a true peace is worked on. etc. - You rarely hear than now.

I think Israel is very sophisticated and understands the region's politics very well. I am confident that a major reason for the relocation (in addition to increasing the claim to West Bank lands) was the knowledge that Gaza will very likely descend into chaos, well illustrating that the Palestine government/state was a unworkable naive "do-gooders" plan. Israel could be reasonable sure of this as prior to taking the settlers out, Israel destroyed most of the police stations, and held back the taxes that should be paying the sanitation workers, etc. I doubt if even the US government would function if the workers could not be paid and the police stations were destroyed.

Summary: What has happened is not the pure credit to Israel you portray it as. This thread is focused on the future, not the past. What do you think Israel should be doing now? Specifically do you see any merit in switching to a more truly defensive program, such as I am suggesting or do you think the only thing wrong with Israel's current "offense is the best defense" choice is that the offense is too timid - not killing people in Lebanon** at the rate it should?
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*No independent army, foreign policy, control of air space, etc. - Just allowed to give out traffic tickets, etc.

**Although Lebanon has pushed Israel's killings in Gaza off the front pages, page A19 of today's Folha de S. Paulo to be exact, Israel killed 151 in Gaza in June. Also that article mentioned that "approximately 40 elected officials of the Palestine government kidnapped by Israel are still being held without trial or even charges in Israel. Thus, in my post you continue to ignore, which pointed out in reply to yours that Israel is far ahead in kidnapping, killing of innnocent children, and deliver of HE (admitted not by suicide bomber, but 155 artillery and F-16 bombers) I made an error (from faulty memory). The kidnap ratio if one compares ONLY the Israeli kidnapping of democratically elected officials to the 3 "kidnapped" Israeli soldiers captured in firefights is about 13 to 1, not the 3 to 1, I had earlier stated.

You wisely are ignoring my post that illustrates how false your claim that Hezbolla is causing of all the problems by their suicide bombing of Israeli children, kidnapping of soldiers, and lobbing of {HE} rockets. You could, however, at least clarify your position on the terminology I also asked about in that post. I.e. is “capturing a soldier” during a firefight, correctly called "kidnapping"?

Same day I asked that question, I saw two blindfolded men being lead from Israeli truck by Israeli soldiers, and the CNN reporter identified them as "fighters captured in Lebanon." Soon there followed a brief discussion about this being in violation of the Geneva Convention as prisoners are not supposed to be publicly displayed in Psy-war propaganda efforts to show your success, even if your homeland support is becoming impatient with your progress in a war, etc.

No, because in a purely defensive position what do they gain?

And yes they are being to timid in there actions, Wars are won by bold action, show me anywhere any in history were a war has been won anyway else?

No, because in a purely defensive position what do they gain?...Perhaps peace, but with current policy we can be sure the result will be more war for generations* and ever increasing deaths on both sides. Perhaps global economic collapse and the destruction of Israel (a great culture, badly misguided now IMHO) in the Biblical Armageddon, with 50 or more million dead, mainly martyrs but most of all Israelis.
--------------------------------
*You might want to think a little about how easy it is now to learn (via internet etc) now to produce biological agents in a basement lab. How easily, even without blowing your self up, the next generation of Israel's enemy (perhaps born in England, and raised there), could come to Israel with British pass-ports pretending to be Jews, and spread lethal infectious agents in restaurants etc. - Look ahead a little to see where the current Israeli leadership is taking your children. Is this where you want to go?

PS thanks for replying to my last post, but you did so before it was finished. (Second footnote added, with comments etc.) Please look at it again. - There is much more there you did not comment on, probably as it was still in development when you replied.

..Wars are won by bold action...Would you be kind enough to descibe for me, what would constitute "winning" this war? (as opposted to laying the foundation for the next? Note the last invasion of Lebanon created Hesbolla and made the current war. etc.)

Buffalo, pplease please please dont tell me you are fooled by August15 2005...

I have to say it was a great publicity stunt!!!!

Billy T

Perhaps peace,

That is all they have ever gotten, perhaps peace, from every thing that I can find the Palestinians and Hezbullah, have never stopped their attacks no matter what they have signed, what is promised in the cease fires, what peaces accords have arranged, all the Israelis have ever gotten from all the with drawls and land for peace is more suicide bombers killing them and their children, more rocket deeper onto their country, more calls from the world to die and get out of the way, show me were anybody out side of Egypt, and Jordan, have kept any accord with Israel, and explain why Israel has not attacked Jordan and Egypt since they have signed their peace treaties, and Jordan and Egypt have ended their support and attacks against Israel, If you want peace don't shoot, bomb, or rocket the Israelis and they will return the favor, tell me would this not work, if you don't shoot at them they have no reason to shoot back!

Buffalo, pplease please please dont tell me you are fooled by August15 2005...

I have to say it was a great publicity stunt!!!!

Yes, Zak, it most certainly was. :cool:

Zakariya04 PBWY, but why is it everthing that the Israeli do considered a publicity stunt in your eyes?, why don't the Palistians stop the attacks? and see were it will lead? Egypt and Jordan did and it lead to peace between them, and there have been no out breaks between them and Isreal has there? The people that I'd look at are the one who use their children ase martyers, continue the suicide bombings, continue the rockets, and never stop the war, and please don't be fooled by the "poor me propaganda" my children are dieing from the Palistinans, and Hezbullah, as they are the ones who use their children for the propaganda.

[QUOTE=buffalo Roam]...If you want peace don't shoot, bomb, or rocket xxxxxx and they will return the favor, …by replacing "the Israelis" with xxxxxx, I have made this into something I can agree with, expect for one omission your part: (don't occupy).

So stop, and if you want peace don't shoot, bomb, or rocket the Israelis and they will return the favor, and get out of your country, if you don't shoot at them they have no reason to shoot back, or come into your country!

...if you don't shoot at them they have no reason to shoot back!I think most self respecting people will, if their land is occupied by a foreign power. There was a fictional movie in which the Russain had occupied the US, and there were many here willing to die to try to liberate their land form occupation. Do you really think Israel can expand beyound the 1967 borders, claim more critical ground water supplies with the wall, etc and have peace?

Again I ask you to look ahead to the next generation's war - it will be biological with agents passing as Jews. For the sake of Israel's future, a great culture, look where you are headed.

Zakariya04 PBWY, but why is it everthing that the Israeli do considered a publicity stunt in your eyes?, why don't the Palistians stop the attacks? and see were it will lead? Egypt and Jordan did and it lead to peace between them, and there have been no out breaks between them and Isreal has there? The people that I'd look at are the one who use their children ase martyers, continue the suicide bombings, continue the rockets, and never stop the war, and please don't be fooled by the "poor me propaganda" my children are dieing from the Palistinans, and Hezbullah, as they are the ones who use their children for the propaganda.
hey buffalo, i hope everyhting is ok with you and your family to.

Not everything they do is a publicity stunt.... the killing at qana for a start

If israel gave the golan hieghts back to syria their would be peace thier too.

if Israel gave back the land to palestine their would be peace.

What i love about israel is they have a go at lebanon saying they havent dios-armed hizbollah etc.... but nor the fuck could they after 18 years of occupatuion.

and they said the same abotu Yasseer arafats in-ability to dis-arm Hamas, when they couild not do it themselves but destroyed allthe PA's infastructure so they had no chance to do it anyway.


Actually sorry Buffalo, this is only one half of the problem...

the other half is to bring down the hous eof Saud and detroy Whabism.

buffalo, what you have to realise is that thier are extremist elements on both sides.

i am sure you ahve read some of my other posts on this...

So stop, and if you want peace don't shoot, bomb, or rocket the Israelis and they will return the favor, and get out of your country, if you don't shoot at them they have no reason to shoot back, or come into your country!I do not expect that to happen "overnight" even if Israel were to withdraw from West Bank expansion (to 1967 border) and destroyed its "ground-water-grabbing" wall.

That is why I am suggesting a reliable system to shoot down homemade rockets fired from Gaza, and even the current longer-range ones coming thru Syria form Iran. Also why I am suggesting a boarder mine field backed up by “killer trained” big dogs etc.

I.e. I fully support Israel's right to exist, and more than you do IMHO, a plan for it to do so for many generations. Every new war will be more deadly for Israel. Israel cannot kill as fast as it is making enemies willing to die in the effort to destroy Israel. Eventually as biological technology advances becomes more widely known, Israel will be destroyed if it continues down the path you are advocating.

Billy T,

I.e. I fully support Israel's right to exist, and more than you do IMHO,

Really?(Full Dripping Sarcasm) you can read my mind?

How long is the night your propose? (Full Dripping Sarcasm)

And how many of them do you propose that Israel wait through?(Full Dripping Sarcasm)

How many more Israelis have to die waiting for this night to end?(Full Dripping Sarcasm)

Perhaps dogs in an inner fence area is a good idea after all. I.e.

non- Israel area
-------------------------------------Two meter wire fence along 1967 border line
Mine field area

--------------------------------------- ~ 30 meter set back inside Israel (low no dog jump fence)

killer dogs area

--------------------------------------Two meter wire fence 50m from 1967 border

Israel safe area
This is allready done, however, the kasams keep going above the fence

This is allready done, however, the kasams keep going above the fenceThat is why there should be CIWS - to shoot them down.

Am I the only one to see the absurdity of Billy T thought process?

..How many more Israelis have to die waiting for this night to end?(Full Dripping Sarcasm)In prior posts, when you said I was following Stalin, I said, "not so, more like Ganhdi." (I was active in the US civil rights movement, spit upon, etc. but in the end we did, to a larger extent "overcome" that hatred.)

I have suggested, and still firmly believe, that if Israel were to follow a more defensive path, improve the living conditions of the Palestine people etc. (At least let others do so, stop bombing their police stations and power plants, etc.) far fewer Israeli would die (before your children can die of old age.) than if the current "offense is the best defense" policy is followed into the age when internet knowledge about lethal biological weapons (already as easy as rockets to make), is more widely known.

With your plan, not only is the Bible correct about Armageddon, but also the part about those who live by the sword will die by the sword is Israel’s future. (Perhaps the “sword,” will be a cloud of inoculated mosquitoes etc. The ways Israel can be destroyed in 2060 are almost infinite. This may be the last change Israel has to get peace, instead of war, for generations.)

I admit that some more Israelis will die (for years) as the hated dies out, (CIWS can not protect all, etc.) but the total I expect required for peace will not reduce the "innocents killed ratio” to unity. - Israel is too far ahead in this shameful statistic. Israel's best plan, IMHO, is to make life on Earth too sweet for the Islamic leaders, who do want war, to be able to recruit martyrs among in Palestinians, etc.

Billy T

(I was active in the US civil rights movement, spit upon, etc. but in the end we did, to a larger extent "overcome" that hatred.)

and like Gandhi and the Civil Rights Movement were dealing with a civilized government, that wasn't seeking your death at all costs, there were people, including the Republicans who were for integration, and as bad as it was, in that the segregationist did kill, it was never condoned by the government, and the people who committed the murders were eventually tried and convicted, but what is the goal of the Palestinian, Hezbullah and other Arabs, it is the total destruction of the Jewish Race, and Israel itself, to drive them into the sea, and drink the blood of the children, it is constantly stated and trumpeted by the Arabs, Palestinians, Hezbullah and every terrorist in the middle east, If your so sure you can deal with these people prove it and take you freedom ride to the middle east and lead by example.

mavet la aravim kuss ammak

ve hakol' ihye sababa

I think it is

mavet la aravim kus ummak

(Death to the Arab mother f*ckers)

Am I the only one to see the absurdity of Billy T thought process?The main difference, I think, in our support for Israel is you are think on a time scale of months and I am thinking on a time scale of generations. Also I am willing to let a few innocent Israeli die, if that will promote peace, and you are not.

From my POV, your position is "absurd." Many Israelis now alive will die before 2060, all will by 2111. Sometimes, why and how you die, is more important than when. At least two dozens of US's finest youths understood this and gave their lives in the civil rights movement. Read what Ganhdi's methods* did achieve and understand what Israel is now achieving with your method. - Then tell me what is "absurd" about dying for peace and justice, reduction of hate, etc. instead of production of a greater, next-generation war.
------------------------------------
*Certainly Hezbolla is not the British government! However, It is precisely your program that created Hexbolla (and will create more). Someone here noted that Israel did not disarm Hezbolla in the prior 18 years of occupying Lebanon. That is slightly in error. It was approximately two years after the 1982 occupation that Hezbolla was formed.

If Israel does succeed in eradication of the "current Hezbolla", the hatred produced will, as in the past, just place Israel in greater danger, on the timescale I am concerned about, but quite possibly not on your shorter one. As I said: I want Israel to last for generations, you do not look that far ahead. You want to repeat the errors of the past, which created Hezbolla. - Absurd inability to learn, not very Jewish, IMHO.

Billy T, Oh really, and were in the real world or history has your solution worked?

"You want to repeat the errors of the past, which created Hezbolla. - Absurd inability to learn, not very Jewish, IMHO."

Yes, you are right Billy T

Billy T, Oh really, and were in the real world or history has your solution worked?Is your "solution" working? or is it time to think differently?

Sam, some solution with a prove track record, not snoty remarks, I have given examples that are in effect right now, and seem to be quite sucessfull, can you?

Between Israel and Jordan and Egypt it seem to be, they aren't swapping rockets and bombs, are they, and haven't for over a decade.

Billy T, Oh really, and were in the real world or history has your solution worked?I am not much of a historian, but instead of reacting to Germany the way the victors did after WWI, the victors of WWII did seem to learn from their prior mistake, which generally is regarded as the fundamental cause of Hitler's rise to power, the National socialist movement the holocaust etc. I assume if you had been in charge, you would not have taken the 180 degree different course at the end of WWII the Marshall Plan represented, compared to the impossible "retribution" burden placed on German at the end of WWI.

I only hope that there are some in Israel, unlike you, who can learn from prior mistakes and not create a greater, more destructive, new Hezbolla with the current invasion of Lebanon, as happened last time. - I hope some Israeli leaders can understand that old Israeli plan is failing and will, if repeated often enough, destroy Israel.

Between Israel and Jordan and Egypt it seem to be, they aren't swapping rockets and bombs, are they, and haven't for over a decade.Your examples are good. They support what I am saying. I.e. Israel never made the life of Egyptians not worth living. - Never made it better to be a martyr and hope for the promised martyr’s reward.

Did Israel ever significantly bomb the infrastructure of Egypt or Jordan? (Bring down the electric grid, making sewerage flow in the streets and well pumps stop?) - I think not.

Israel did briefly occupy a basically uninhabited part of Egypt (Army even briefly crossing the Nile against orders, as I recall.) never invaded or destroyed any part of Jordan - again as I recall - but even if this is false, my point is true: - Israel never made life less attractive than martyr's death for a religious leader's promise in either Jordan or Egypt.

Perhaps Israel should repeat in Palestine this plan that worked in Egypt and Jordan rather than repeat the one which created Hezbolla, but that would require learning from past mistakes and successes. Again I hope your are not typical in the absurd inability to do so. Most Jews I have known are good learners and I respect them and their culture for that. - You do not seem to be typical. Are you really a Jew?

And again you read my mind? ( The Sound Me Puking For This Condescension) The German's and the Japanese were defeated militarily, and then peace was established, and the U.S. had the ability to control the rebuilding of Europe and Japan after the war and unlike the retribution that the British, French and Europe levied on Germany after WWI, it helped the Germans and Japanese to recover, which if you would do some research, would find the Pres. Wilson wanted to do for the Germans after WWI, and with the lack of help for the German people at that time, it inevitably set in motion the situations that lead to WWII. But for a real peace some one has to win and establish the peace.

And again you read my mind? ( The Sound Me Puking For This Condescension) The German's and the Japanese were defeated militarily, and then peace was established, and the U.S. had the ability to control the rebuilding of Europe and Japan after the war and unlike the retribution that the British, French and Europe levied on Germany after WWI, it helped the Germans and Japanese to recover, which if you would do some research, would find the Pres. Wilson wanted to do for the Germans after WWI, and with the lack of help for the German people at that time, it inevitably set in motion the situations that lead to WWII. But for a real peace some one has to win and establish the peace.I gather by this part I made bold, you do think in terms of beating the terrorist by military force. I.e. "winning the war" so I will again ask you to please tell me what is your concept of “winning” (that does not assure an even more destructive war and the eventual destruction of Israel, when US has to too little gas to support even its own "law and order" needs.)? Is Israel now "winning" in Lebanon, or making several new willing martyrs for ever one it now kills?

PS I know about Wison's "League of Nations" etc.

"Fools" You Babble Amongst Yourselves And Yet You Do Not See The Impending Doom That Is About To Bloom On The Dark Horizon Ahead.

And no peace has ever been established with out one of two things taking place, either like in Northern Ireland both sides, and in this case the mothers of both sides got tired of their children dieing, or you have a military victory, until you have one of these situation the war will go on, the Arab mother are not tired of sending there children out to die for the cause, and we haven't fought this as a all out war, we keep pulling the punches, and worry about being politically correct, and not offending the piece of shit radical terrorist, until either one of these situations developed there will never be peace.

Hamas/Hezbollah do not want peace. If there was peace then there would be no need for them. It is human nature to exist and Hamas/Hezbollah will always destroy peace in order to force a situation where they are 'needed' by the people. Power and Money folks. If Hezbollah/Hamas isnt fighting the 'infadels' then they are not getting any donations. No money- no social programs. No social programs- no community support for Hamas/Hezbollah.

The same people on this site who slam Americas "Industrial Military Complex" support the Arab version ie Hamas/Hezbollah.

Hamas/Hezbollah do not want peace. If there was peace then there would be no need for them. It is human nature to exist and Hamas/Hezbollah will always destroy peace in order to force a situation where they are 'needed' by the people. Power and Money folks. If Hezbollah/Hamas isnt fighting the 'infadels' then they are not getting any donations...May supprize you but I think you have a good point. I am old enought to have made contributions to "the march of dimes" which supported research trying to end polio. Well it did, but the march continued for exactly the reasons you state. I think they were after "birth defects" but never angain were they "The" charity everyone supported. If Isreal could kill the leaders of Hezbolla (make them not need jobs etc) WITHOUT MAKING a greater, stonger anti Israel group, I would be very happy.

"Fools" You Babble Amongst Yourselves And Yet You Do Not See The Impending Doom That Is About To Bloom On The Dark Horizon Ahead.I take it form this, you agree that Israel's current policy is leading to its destruction. Does your "special insites" tell you when? (I want to sell my stock in TEVA and ElOS first. :D )

And no peace has ever been established with out one of two things taking place, either like in Northern Ireland both sides, and in this case the mothers of both sides got tired of their children dieing, or you have a military victory, until you have one of these situation the war will go on, the Arab mother are not tired of sending there children out to die for the cause, and we haven't fought this as a all out war, we keep pulling the punches, and worry about being politically correct, and not offending the piece of shit radical terrorist, until either one of these situations developed there will never be peace.I do not think F-16 can fly all the way to Indonesia, but assure you that millions of terrorist can come from there to help destroy Israel if your paln goes into effect. Iagain ask you to think/look ahead a little farther than the end of 2006 - to the era, soon to come, when biological basement-made agents are the means the "sucide bombers" will use. Again, do you want this world for your children, or should you learn from your past mistake, whch created Hezbolla?
I must quit for a while. See you later.

Billy T, that is why this is a global war and as such war must be carried out in the full brutality of such a endeavor, like WWII all the heads of the terrorist snake must be cut off, as we did with Germany, Italy, and Japan, we need to stop worrying about proportionality, and fight as we fought in WWII, and impose by force of arms our solution, and not worry about the other guys feelings, we been worrying about the other guys feeling to long and all its has done is get more of us killed and maimed.

Theres a small flaw in your argument, billy.
You claim that Israel would be better off being passive to any attack on its territory, simply building big walls, and waiting for the worst to come.

When your enemy knows it can hit you, and never get hit back, it will have no qualms to keep trying until it succeeds. Hezbullah will never accepd Israels right to exist, so goodwill or passivness will NOT keep it at bay.

The only way an organization like this can lose its will, is when it knows that every attack on Israel would result in a massive reprisal. Hence, the cost will far outway the benefit of attacking us.


The 2000 withdrawl to UN recognized international lines were an act of concession. This is interpeted in the middle east allways, as weakness, thus pushing hezbullah to constant attacks and provocation over the last 6 years.

We were passive, and look where it got us. The line must be drawn. An unprovoked attack on a sovereign country cannot be ignored.

For a supposed brilliant mind you have the density of a neutron star, the complete defeat of your enemy, and the balls to follow through with what it take to do so, which means no more politically correct half stepping in your actions when a war needs to be fought, you don't worry about how your opponent feels, you worry about your own people first last and always, and after you have placed your will on the enemy then maybe you can worry about them, just as it was done in every war before WWII.

...When your enemy knows it can hit you, and never get hit back,...Did you not read my suggestion as to how to "hit back"? A technical suggestion on how to "shred any living thing" near the site from which a rocket was launched? When Isreal receives inbound rockets, it should do two things, as I have been suggesting for months (long before this thread was created):

(1) Use CIWS to explode the rocket high in the air, before it can hit any city of significant size. (Tiny towns will usually escape all damage as the rocket are very crude and unguided.) The CIWS Israel installed on it ships 30 year ago is more than adequate to this task, (as you have nearly a minute to shoot the Gaza rocket down) but perhaps the firing rate should be reduced slightly to avoid any probably of jamming in action if 30year old units are used. - Israel must have at least a dozen old CIWS units as all her capital ships now have modern CIWS that can shoot down a mach 3 sea-skimmer in less than 5 seconds. If you are unfamiliar with Close In Weapon Systems, Google - see films of them doing this etc.

(2)Use modern computers and radars (not the WWII acoustic triangulation) to back project the exact launch site in less than 1 second for rocket flameout. place "counter battery fire" on it to "shred any living thing near that launch site. However, cease the current routine random shelling of mainly vacant lots, beaches, olive groves that only MAY be launch site and often kill innocents (151 died, mostly "innocents" in June06 in Gaza). I.e. adopt a clearly "hit back" not "fire first" policy.

How can you think I do not want to hit back? - I want to exactly and only that, and do it more effective than it is currently done. I have clearly stated how, using only old technology. I think fact that Israel does not take this means to better protect its citizens and make clear to the world that it is only "hitting back" is an indication that Israel's leaders WANT to trade a few Israeli live to justify taking many more of the "enemy." What other reason is there not to hit back harder and protect better with CIWS? (Patriot anti-ICBM that are protecting main cities, are this same system in grander, more expensive, scale. Why not protect at leas 90% of the population by the same approach and hit back more effectively as I began suggesting 5 or 6 months ago?)

That is why there should be CIWS - to shoot them down.
I have seen in the "space balls" movie by Mel Brooks, that they are using some kind of force shield to protect earth, don't you agree that Israel should use it?

...An unprovoked attack on a sovereign country cannot be ignored.Unfortunatley the invader ALWAYS claims to have been "provoked"

Was the confiscation of Palestinian homes without compenstion or right to return not "provocation"? Provation is easy to find for all sides. Your rule is useless.

Billy T, CIWS? do you know the limitation of the system? If I put 100 rocket into the air in a 1km zone at the same time how many will leak through? the answer is most, the system doesn't have the reaction time to counter 10s, 20s, 50s, 100reds of targets at the same time, and that is how rocket are launched, CIWS are a anti cruse missile, anti aircraft, system, even if you place them ever fifty meters they will not stop a mass barrage of rockets, I could give you some information I know of the parameter of the system but I can't find them in open publication so I won't release the information, as it is still classified, but suffice to say the system doesn't have the ability to do what you want.

Billy T, you say this isn't a global war?

In the Wikipedia article ever flag of the world seems to be represented, and you don't recognize this as a global war?

List of terrorist incidents - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Incidents listed here are commonly called terrorism, or meet some of the ... 10.1 2000; 10.2 2001; 10.3 2002; 10.4 2003; 10.5 2004; 10.6 2005; 10.7 2006 ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents


Significant Terrorist Incidents 1961-2003: A Brief Chronology
Ambassador to Japan Attacked, July 30, 1969: US Ambassador to Japan AH Meyer was ... of committing the worst terrorist attack in the country in a decade. ...
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ho/pubs/fs/5902.htm

[QUOTE=Billy T]Did you not read my suggestion as to how to "hit back"? A technical suggestion on how to "shred any living thing" near the site from which a rocket was launched?

Do you have any idea how many civilians would die by such a tactic? Right now, Israel precision bombes the launch area, cluster-fucking the place would cause hundreds of dead. So what you are suggesting is Israel be way more violent than it is today?




(2)Use modern computers and radars (not the WWII acoustic triangulation) to back project the exact launch site in less than 1 second for rocket flameout. place "counter battery fire" on it to "shred any living thing near that launch site. However, cease the current routine random shelling of mainly vacant lots, beaches, olive groves that only MAY be launch site and often kill innocents (151 died, mostly "innocents" in June06 in Gaza). I.e. adopt a clearly "hit back" not "fire first" policy.


You actually believe Israel bombes lebanon randomly? Its been targetting the launchers all the time, including HQ's, bases, bunkers, weapons stores. Randomly bombing an area is completley counterproductive, and untrue in this war.


I want to exactly and only that, and do it more effective than it is currently done. I have clearly stated how, using only old technology. I think fact that Israel does not take this means to better protect its citizens and make clear to the world that it is only "hitting back" is an indication that Israel's leaders WANT to trade a few Israeli live to justify taking many more of the "enemy."

The reason they have not implemented your plans, is beacuse they cant. Israel is doing the best it can to protect its civilians while taking out the launchers.

You probably dont know that, but most long range launchers and missiles have been destroyed. They are large, not very mobile, and easy to detect/destroy. The problem is with the smaller short range launchers which can in minuts be transported to another area.
Its not that Israel doesnt want to implement a plan that can "miraculousely" destroy all the missiles, Its simply that it cant.

I have seen in the "space balls" movie by Mel Brooks, that they are using some kind of force shield to protect earth, don't you agree that Israel should use it?I thought the Israelis were protecting the Earth with one, but the Gaza rockets did not go high enough to hit it.

Billy T, CIWS? do you know the limitation of the system?Yes I worked 30 years at APL, more than than 12 on monte carlo simulation of defense of US navyt ship! APL is the technical design agent for the US navy. We invented the Aegis phased aray radar, which is the heart of Aegis. replace the old twin rale launchers with the VLS system, originalted the standard missle systems and CIWS is the final ditch denfense - I am sure Iknow much more about this than you, who are at best a foriegn end user, not part of the design and evaluation team. Just yesterday, I reveived (still get them after 12 years in retirement as I was "principle staff") the APL news issue. It describesthe results of the 22June test of the of Aegis as mobile anti-ICBM system. We have make Kinetic Kills (direct hits no warheads) on realisitc re-entry ICBMs 7 out of 8 tries now!

Nowthat the big red bear is not likely to hit a ship with cruse missiles APL has further extended the standar missile to BMD applications. I have also worked on HARM, even discovered error in code related to how it would respond to blinking in in alternation radar threats which were trying to make HARM harmlessly centrode instead of hit one.
I have forgotten more about all this than you will ever know.

Ps House guest just arrived- Iwill spell chec and correct tomorrow.

As I thought no CIWS, if you are so smart then compare the flight profiles of rocket against cruse missiles, and aircraft, and I've talked with the end users who know what the system can do in reality.

counter battery fire takes quite the time to get the guns locked then the time for the rounds to fall on target. By that time their gone.

They the production capability/will to purchase a weapon system doing something it wasnt designed to. Rockets are small and i doubt the old phalanx systems have radar capability of tracking and killing these small targets w/much success. There not guided like missiles they have flimsy trajectories (harder to predict and shoot). They also have a limited range so you would have to buy quite a few to defend a city. Then they would have to be mounted on buildings then they may misfire causing friendly casualties + the man power and maintenance its just not practical. All hezbollah would have to do is rain chaff during rocket bombardments and those poor systems wouldn’t know whats going on.

Although i did seem some promising footage of a high powered laser knocking out artillery shells but that was still prototype http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/634090/posts.
Patriots had a hard time with massive iraqi scuds i dont think they would be able to pick up the tiny rockets.

I say armed UAV's constantly monitoring the areas would be a good tactic.

As I thought no CIWS, ...In my many years at APL evaluating defensive systems for the US navy, I had detailed technical characteristic of CIWS (and the NATO Sea Sparrow, which is a longer-range missile-type near-target defense). APL did not develop either of these two system, but I needed and had complete information about all ship-based defensive systems in the Monte Carlo models I used. Some knowledge, that is not even shared with NATO.

You forced me to mention my APL history. Later last night, I realized that APL's early history is very relevant to Israel’s current conflict. I will tell why in next post, but conclude this one giving credit to your knowledge about defense:

You obviously know that under attack with no adequate responce, the best you can do is to distract the attacker with decoys or a smoke screen. Thus, rather than answer the specific question I have repeatedly asked, you discuss technical details and challege my knowledge about them. - Bad move in this case, because I have forgotten much more than you will ever know about active point-defense systems.

Thus, I will not get into "comparison of flight profiles" as you suggested in last post, but CIWS can handle any (except for the "lock-out zones" which prevent this fully automatic system from shooting the ship or near by building in this land application). Answer my specific questions, or I will move them forward to prevent them from falling off the page, and delete the original post when I do.

But explain the fact that when a ship is attacked that the missiles are converging on the target, and at a much slower speed than a rocket, in a rocket barrage the rockets are fired at a high angel, at a much higher speed, and on a divergent flight path, so instead of your intended target converging into a kill zone they are spreading out across the landscape and the recovery angles to the next target become larger and larger, plus the fact that in missile and aircraft attack there are fewer targets to contend, rocket barrages would come in hundreds, and the attack profiles of missiles and aircraft differ greatly from the attack profile of a incoming rocket. And I know more than you will ever know of the real world use of said systems, and as you just pointed out this is a point defense system, and rocket like Katushas are a area bombardment system, you my have helped to designed some systems but in my experience in having to use systems like these and in discussions with navy personnel that have use these system, you need to learn that what you design for one purpose doesn't always work well for another purpose, the attack profiles are far to different, I will agree that the CIWS would get some that fell into the parameters of it's programming but there would be a lot of leakage.

BILL real world usage is FAR different from what the spec sheet says it can do.

EXAMPLE: Technically the M-16 can hold 30 rnds but you want to load it with 28 so there is less chance of jamming.

deicide128, So you've been there to? I've been there to often? Why don't the egg heads ever talk to the end users and see what they really need?

APL, the Applied Physic Laboratory, was created during WWII to solve the urgent problem of Japanese “suicide bombers” flying planes packed with HE into ships. Israel could use the highly-effective solution APL found to stop the crude missiles fired across the Gaza border, which are not even guided and slower than a diving Kama Kazi plane. (At least 30 times slower, when approaching their trajectory peak, where they should be hit.)

(I have not always made it clear in every post, but the problem I have been addressing for months, is the basement-made Gaza rockets. - On 12 July, Israel made their problem much worse. Other systems will be required now for these longer-range, guided, rockets. The Standard Missile system APL developed later (and/or the cheaper NATO Sea Sparrow) could be used for new problem, probably at less cost that Lebanon has already paid in lost infrastructure.)

APL’s WWII solution is adequate for the Gaza rockets and much cheaper than the CIWS I have previously suggested. Surely, the IDF is not ignorant of it, so I am forced to conclude that Israel’s leaders want to give a few Jewish lives to “buy” a justification for what they do to the Palestinians. - Kill many indirectly (by blocking food/medical imports, tax revenues, etc. and by active destruction of infrastructure, especially power plants that support water pumps and sewerage plants), and directly kill many others (with artillery and Apache launched rockets. - 151 in June 06).

APL’s WWII solution I refer to is the “proximaty fuse” shell. Very easily combined with a radar system covering the Gaza Border, much like the old “dew line” that stretched across all of Canada. Any crude, relatively slow, unguided Gaza rocket aimed at an Israeli city near the boarder could be destroy near the top of its trajectory using these shells in a new computer-integrated, radar, automatic “slow target” cheap, limited-capacity “CIWS system” with individual batteries separated by at least a couple of km. As smaller than ordinary 155 caliber is adequate (and was used in WWII against the Kama Kazi planes) automatic reload with automatic shots at least every 5 seconds is clearly feasible, if needed,* but some components of this “slow target” CIWS would need to be developed. APL could do the development in less than a year, I am sure Israel could also, if it wanted to, it would however lost its current justification for killing Palestinians in Gaza. (I have already suggested a mine field and dogs etc along the Gaza border to reduce, if not eliminate, individual suicide bombers** and Israel does try to control the border, but could do much better, if it were willing to give up the cheap maids etc that currently must cross daily. - I.e. Let no one cross and automatically kill those foolish enough to try.
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*It should be a “fire-until-kill-confirm” system so shots more rapidly than about 5 seconds would not be desirable, in most cases. The abrupt change in target velocity when it is hit is easily detected by the radars, so they need not have resolution to see if come apart or explode.
**Some British passport ones will probably fly in, and assemble what they need in Israel after landing etc. at the rate Israel is turning the world against it with daily war crimes, now impossible to hide or deny.

But explain the fact that when a ship is attacked that the missiles are converging on the target, and at a much slower speed than a rocket, in a rocket barrage the rockets are fired at a high angel, at a much higher speed, and on a divergent flight path, so instead of your intended target converging into a kill zone they are spreading out across the landscape and the recovery angles to the next target become larger and larger, plus the fact that in missile and aircraft attack there are fewer targets to contend, rocket barrages would come in hundreds, and the attack profiles of missiles and aircraft differ greatly from the attack profile of a incoming rocket. And I know more than you will ever know of the real world use of said systems, and as you just pointed out this is a point defense system, and rocket like Katushas are a area bombardment system, you my have helped to designed some systems but in my experience in having to use systems like these and in discussions with navy personnel that have use these system, you need to learn that what you design for one purpose doesn't always work well for another purpose, the attack profiles are far to different, I will agree that the CIWS would get some that fell into the parameters of it's programming but there would be a lot of leakage. More technical "smoke screen" (mostly wrong, especially the velocity statements for the Gaza rockets I am speaking of.*) ANSWER my Specific Questions.

Traditionally, the defense of the fleet, especially when speaking of the CIWS, NATO Sea Sparrow, is referred to as "point defense," but a carrier battle group is included in the full defense systems I have evaluated for US Navy and much larger in area than any Israeli city.
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*I direct you to the second paragraph of my last (adjacent) post, where it more clearly states that I have been addressing the Gaza rocket problem these last few months, not the more serious one Israel has recently created with the second invasion of Lebanon. (There would not be a Hezbolla it "Invasion I" had not created it. When this "Invasion II" ends, Israel's will face a more unified and more dangerous Islamic enemy, including nuclear armed Pakistan, in a few years at most. Why can you not learn from Israel's prior mistakes, try a new plans, etc.? The next generation's "Invasion III" will face biologic weapons, and frankly I do not have any suggestions as to how Israel can survive them, but as GWB would say, and you agree, Israel must "stay the course," change nothing, keep repeating its same mistakes. - Sad.)

Like the Sergeant York Program?, and what about the Hezbullah problem, that is what I thought we were discussing, and you were talking about the whole border of Israel, why the change in the direction of the discussion to Gaza, we were talking about Lebanon?

Like the Sergeant York Program?, and what about the Hezbullah problem, that is what I thought we were discussing, and you were talking about the whole border of Israel, why the change in the direction of the discussion to Gaza, we were talking about Lebanon?Stop with the smoke screens - ANSWER my Specific Questions.

BILL real world usage is FAR different from what the spec sheet says it can do....Yes. - That is why the US Navy has APL run real "live-fire" tests and incorportate the results in the Monte Carlo analysis, never use the specs the makers claim.

Really you demand I answer your questions?, while you dismiss mine, typical egghead arrogance of the Ivory Tower Intellectual, you reference at least a 40mm shell, what system is in place that fits your description of the caliber needed to accomplish the said objective, most of the systems I know of have a ammo load of about 128rds ready and 200 reserve, this is common knowledge, and as there is a human self correcting element what would they do in a tactical use change of their weapons, fire more at once, I would spread the system? and fire barrages across the systems parameters, and take advantage of the reaction time it would take for the system to ascertain a kill, and then have to adjust to the next target, what is the flight time of the rockets, vs. the reaction time of the system, flood the area with targets and you over load the reaction time of the system.

Really you demand I answer your questions?, while you dismiss mine, ...Clearly ask a specific question or two (Number them as I have.) and I will try to answer them, or copy prior answers I have given.

I tried to up load cover of the APL news, showing photo of the 22 June launch / live fire test/ from Aegis ship USS Shiloh (CG67) but got the following msg even though the file is .jpg

Warning: filesize(): open_basedir restriction in effect. File(/usr/www/users/davew/sciforums/attachments/0c7b513b204b2b1e65c9e734a7f9dfb8) is not within the allowed path(s): (/home/porfiry:/usr/lib/php:/usr/local/lib/php:/tmp) in /includes/functions_file.php on line 286

I may try to up load only the picture later to reduce the file size. (Entire cover was scanned as a photo and I can delete the text.)

BR has been reduced to calling me an "Egg head." - Normally he has some better arguments than name calling, but I wanted him to know that APL is far from an "Egg Head" organization. It is a "hands on" organization that has repeatedly designed, evaluated, live fire tested and overseen industrial production of much of the hardware and software the US navy uses.

Any help would be apprecaited. I have no idea what the "allowed path" is part of the msg is refering to.

You can upload the picture at www.imageshack.com and link it here.

Buffalo please answer specific questions in following. One has been asked four times now! This post you ignore has been twice moved forward when it has falling three or more pages behind without any answers. - It is easy to copy and delete older post and I will continue to do so you till you answer. I will try to answer any questions you number and ask clearly, as clearly and specifically as I have.
Billy T, that is why this is a global war and as such war must be carried out in the full brutality of such a endeavor...Not a "global war," yet. Pre Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon, there was a “minor war” with the Palestinians who did not think it fair that:
(1) Jews were living in the houses they were born in,
And
(2) they received no compensation for the confiscation,
And
(3) Israel’s laws made it illegal for them to return to their homes.

Quite a few went to Lebanon and some committed violent acts in protest to what had happened. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to try to stop these acts, but produced much more destruction in Lebanon than it suffered from these acts, by any measure. Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. As direct result of that invasion and occupation, “Hezbollah I” was created and the "minor war" intensified until finally, in 2000,: .

Either:
Hezbollah I "drove the invaders out of Lebanon" after 18 years of occupation,
Or:
Israel decided it was safe to try to live in peace with Lebanon and “withdrew."

(There is no difference in, or dispute about, these facts, only a difference in the "spin" one puts on the facts, when reporting them.)

On12 July 06, Israel invaded Lebanon and has now (12Aug06) reoccupied and destroyed the southern part of Lebanon and much of the infrastructure through out all of Lebanon (almost all bridges and air fields, etc.) Approximate 1000 Lebanese, most civilians, have been killed and almost 100 Israelis, mostly soldiers, are dead, as of this date. One third of the entire population is homeless, without adequate food and shelter, even water in some areas. Aid agencies are not allow (by Israel) to provide even the most basic necessities are now dying for lack of them.

Despite the fact Israel was unable to eradicate “Hezbollah I” during the first occupation, lets assume Israel does achieve this goal during the second invasion/occupation. Lets also assume, certainly with more probably that this assumption is a correct, that Israel's new effort to eradicate “Hezbollah I” causes most of the Islamic world to become more unified against Israel and, as before, “Hezbollah II” is created.

Specific Questions:
(1) Is there any reason to think that Hezabollah II will not come into existence as direct result of “Invasion II”?

(2)Is there any reason to think that Hezabollah II will not be more widely supported by the more unified Islamic world (Monroco to Indonesia) which of course includes nuclear Pakistan?

(3) If you think “Invasion II” will make Israel safer, please explain why.

All should feel free to respond (I can not stop you even if wanted to.) but I specifically ask Buffalo Roam, who thinks Invasion II must be more vigorous and terminate in a clear victory (for Israel):

(4)What constitutes the victory you seek and say is necessary?

Note this THE THIRD TIME I ask BR for his description of a “victory.” One which improves Israel‘s safety. Specifically, I ask what are his assumptions about the acts, if any, of the world’s Islamic extremists and countries; and if he assumes that they differ from the sequela of “Invasion I,” explain why.

All may want to consider:

(5) If history continues to repeat and the next Israeli generation makes “Invasion III” against “Hezbollah II” what role, if any, do you think biologic weapons will play?

You can upload the picture at www.imageshack.com and link it here.thanks - I will try that. We old guys are not quite up to speed in all internet features, especailly as I had only dial up connection, which in Brazil cost linearly increases with connect time. Just beginning to use Google for same reason (and fact my memory is full of many facts not easily found there.)

I hope I will be able to figure out how to make a "link" from imageshack into post here.

Once you "host" the picture, it gives you the option for a thumbnail or a direct link.

Either is ok. Just copy-paste it as is into the reply.

You demand, go to hell! Yes Hezbullah will come back unless Israel destroys them, and as it looks the U.N. is saving Hezbullah again so like the Hydra they can grow new heads, and if you don't know what a victory is I will never be able to educate you,
you, and your over educated pompus ass retorical questions, how about you answer if it is possable to overload the response time of the system you envision, and by mass barrage and spreading the launches across the coverage zone, be able to put rockets into the target area?

SamCDkey: Do I use the "Free Image Hosting" (www.busythumbs.com) or the "Up load Fullsize Images" (www.pichoard.com) sub site to make the later linking easier?

Whoops sorry!

the correct url is http://imageshack.us/ I typed it from memory (age is no excuse here)

... you, and your over educated pompus ass retorical questions, how about you answer if it is possible to overload the response time of the system you envision, and by mass barrage and spreading the launches across the coverage zone, be able to put rockets into the target area?No clear answers I see*, only more furious name calling. None the less, I will answer your question:

Yes any defensive system can be over-whelmed. It is much more difficult to overwhelm when the defensive system is set of stages ("Defense in Depth") and each stage must only deal with the “leakers” that get thru the more distant stages.

Although I have been focusing on the Gaza rockets these last few months, "Invasion II" has made the threat to Israel much worse and harder to stop. Defense in Depth will be required for these longer range missiles, but is not for the slow easy unguided Gaza rockets. System I have described can deal with 99.9% of them and that 1 in 1000 that might get thru, unguided, is likely to kill a rabbit or snake in some field, if anything.
------------
*If you give any answers, please number them to correspond to my numbered question. I did not do this here as you only asked one and did not number it. Ask more if you like and do not bother calling me more names - I grew quite immune to that years ago in the civil rights movement. (Fortunately you can not spit on me via the internet - I did not like that.)

I have always been an activist, never an “egghead” only commenting, but not much more I can do from Brazil.

Billy T

No clear answers I see,

No clear answers you want to see.

Whoops sorry! the correct url is http://imageshack.us/ I typed it from memory (age is no excuse here)Thanks - I went there and immediately got warning about my commputer being slow (and in fact it has been recently). I think it is some scam but will shut down and run all my anti-virus (Avast) and anti-data miners and return later (by hours as I plan to go swim soon.)

Billy T No clear answers you want to see.Which numbered question have you answered? Please copy and repost any answer, with number. I will be the judge about liking or not it. You can not do that for me, but thanks.

Why should I answer rhetorical questions to help you try to prove your case, that is your job, What is the size of a fleet ADZ, and what is the size of the ADZ of Israel?, and tell me how to do full coverage of a country, that is another problem with your solution, even Star Wars don't claim to be able to kill all the incoming. You admit that you can flood the ADZ, now on top of the mass barrage you throw into the mix spoof rockets, dummies with no other purpose than to provide targets to confuse the system, again the self correcting human element. That is why you have to conduct war in all its ferocity, because if you use proportional response it allows for the self correcting human system to compensate for your tactics.

1. If the UN does its job it should be fine

2. as long as you hate/kill jews you will be supported by muslims thats nothing new

3. This invasion may have been aggressive and large enough for the world to pay attention and take it seriously

4. no more hezbollah in leabanon = victory

5. bio weapons will have no role and it will occur again because the UN is impotent.

hello Buffalo, I hope you had a good weekend, i see you and billy T have been very busy analysing some more weapons systems.

I hope you are well, sorry i have not been around for the weekend, but was wodnering whether i have answered all/any of your points you throw at me on Friday

Death to Isreal, end oppression, if there is a God.

devils_reject:

There are many many Jews in Israel who fight for the rights of Palestinians and who protest against the imprisonment of Palestinians and Lebanese by their government. There are women who stand daily by the checkpoints to prevent the abuse and beating of refugees and their children by soldiers. There are reporters, men and women who write and publish on behalf of the prisoners, there are Israeli lawyers who pay visits to the prisons and report their findings to the Human Rights groups, there are Israelis who aid and provide food and medicines to the refugees.

Whenever polls show the "support" that Israeli people are showing for the war and bombing, remember that the polls show a slice of the population, not the whole, they may be rigged or false, to give a validation to the governments actions.

Violence can never breed peace. I have no doubt a majority of the people in Israel would prefer a peaceful solution to the indiscriminate bombs raining on either side.

It is erroneous to attribute the people with the values and policies of the government.

Just as there are many Americans who refute and denounce America's foreign policy. In fact just last week there was a rally in front of the white house against Isreals war with Lebanon. The fact is that the government is a representation of the people, especially the so called "democratic" government, but as we all know, in every community there will always be factions by ideas and views. Now America wants to spread democracy in the Mid East when there is little democracy and divided opinions in Isreal and the United States. This is the kind of crap world watchers and outsiders hate to see.

It is erroneous to attribute the people with the values and policies of the government Maybe the people don't want a change bad enough, believe me if they did they would turn their government upside down. Its happened many times in History, need I remind you?

For example, this is an Israeli group which protests against the house demolitions of Palestinians by the IDF and publishes the truth about these demolitions in international papers.

They have also been trying to prohibit the sales of these armed bulldozers to the Israeli government.

http://www.icahd.org/eng/

These are the women of Machsom Watch who volunteer to keep an eye at the checkpoints.

http://www.machsomwatch.org/

It is not the question of wanting badly enough. It is the question of being heard.

Who is listening to these Israelis? Or to the Palestinians and Lebanese?

The impotent UN? The US or the EU?

Today the war is won in the media and there is so much propaganda by vested interests, including the Israeli governement, Hezbollah, Hamas, etc, who have so much more funding and power that no one pays attention to the voice of truth.

Here is a nice link which shows all the peace groups in Israel

http://peace.mennolink.org/articles/israelpeacegroups.html

To Bufffalo Roam, you have now answered number 4, but here, in case you have forgotten, below are my other questions again, following these three historic points:

Palestinians who did not think it fair that:
(1) Jews were living in the houses they were born in,
And
(2) they received no compensation for the confiscation,
And
(3) Israel’s laws made it illegal for them to return to their homes.

Quite a few went to Lebanon and some committed violent acts in protest to what had happened. Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to try to stop these acts, but produced much more destruction in Lebanon than it suffered from these acts, by any measure. Israel occupied Lebanon for 18 years. As direct result of that invasion and occupation, “Hezbollah I” was created and the "minor war" intensified until finally, in 2000,: .

Either:
Hezbollah I "drove the invaders out of Lebanon" after 18 years of occupation,
Or:
Israel decided it was safe to try to live in peace with Lebanon and “withdrew."

(There is no difference in, or dispute about, these facts, only a difference in the "spin" one puts on the facts, when reporting them.)

On12 July 06, Israel invaded Lebanon and has now (12Aug06) reoccupied and destroyed the southern part of Lebanon and much of the infrastructure through out all of Lebanon (almost all bridges and air fields, etc.) Approximate 1000 Lebanese, most civilians, have been killed and almost 100 Israelis, mostly soldiers, are dead, as of this date. One third of the entire population is homeless, without adequate food and shelter, even water in some areas. Aid agencies are not allow (by Israel) to provide even the most basic necessities are now dying for lack of them.

Despite the fact Israel was unable to eradicate “Hezbollah I” during the first occupation, lets assume Israel does achieve this goal during the second invasion/occupation. Lets also assume, certainly with more probably that this assumption is a correct, that Israel's new effort to eradicate “Hezbollah I” causes most of the Islamic world to become more unified against Israel and, as before, “Hezbollah II” is created.

Specific Questions:
(1) Is there any reason to think that Hezabollah II will not come into existence as direct result of “Invasion II”?

(2)Is there any reason to think that Hezabollah II will not be more widely supported by the more unified Islamic world (Monroco to Indonesia) which of course includes nuclear Pakistan?

(3) If you think “Invasion II” will make Israel safer, please explain why.

All should feel free to respond (I can not stop you even if wanted to.) but I specifically ask Buffalo Roam, who thinks Invasion II must be more vigorous and terminate in a clear victory (for Israel):

(4)What constitutes the victory you seek and say is necessary?
ANSWERED: approximately as: "total victory" - (Complete destruction of the enemy and imposition of your will on them.)

All may want to consider:

(5) If history continues to repeat and the next Israeli generation makes “Invasion III” against “Hezbollah II” what role, if any, do you think biologic weapons will play?

Billy T you remind me of the 6,7,8, year olds in the neighborhood as the play at soldiers or super hero they always add super duper defenses and powers as the play with each other, and your solutions remind me of the same fantasy games that they play, there is nothing wrong with fantasy, but lets look at yours, how do you pay for it, what about the political fall out of Isolation , and the use of land mines, the Palestinian send their children into harms way already for propaganda purposes, how much more propaganda would they get out of children being killed in mine field protecting Israel, and do you think that they wouldn't utilizes their children in that way, How about the first child that get torn apart by your killer dogs, can you see the news reports, the world would just love that, I can see the head lines now,HEARTLESS ISRAELI FEED PALESTINIAN CHILDREN TO THEIR KILLER DOGS, EXTRA- EXTRA and I would be willing to bet that is exactly what would happen, and the Israelis would still be blamed no matter how many signs you put up as a warning, the Arabs have always blamed the Israelis, no matter what, and as far as your vaunted Dew Line Rocket Defense Shield, I would bet that the Arabs and the Palestinians would change their tactic, and start mass launch's on concentrated areas and flood the defensive zone with targets, their are not shooting for a specific target all the want to do is kill Israelis, so I believe they would do exactly what the NVA did when we interdicted the Hochi Min Trail, just send more to make up the difference for what doesn't make it trough, or just change the flight profile of the rockets, or use a mix of decoys and live ordinance, and as one of the other poster pointed out they are patient enough to dig as far down as they have to, to go under an obstacle, or how about a light airplane with a nice your family goes astray into the defensive zone, Young Mother, several nice Children and agood looking Father, I can just see the news now, ISRAELI KILLER ROBOTS DESTROY A FINE RESPECTABLE FAMILY, and what would make it even better is the survivors would end up in the mine field or that they ended up into the zone of the killer dogs, how would you like to handle the fallout from that press release, and I guess your name would have to be brought up as the designer of the Defensive Zone, what do you think the Arabs or the Palestinians would do to your life then?

....what about the political fall out of Isolation , and the use of land mines, the Palestinian send their children into harms way already for propaganda purposes, how much more propaganda would they get out of children being killed in mine field protecting Israel, and do you think that they wouldn't utilizes their children in that way, ... One thing about mine fields, which you seem to be forgetting, is that where they are is not in question. They would be entirely inside Israel, and well marked with signs. If a Palestinian is killed by one, there is no question as to fact he (or she) was entering Israel. It is still not clear on which side of the boarder the two Israeli soldiers were captured. (by the way, why do you always say "kidnapped" and yet Israel who has taken thousands of people in the dead of night from their homes does not kidnap, only "arrests.")

As far as a light airplane being mistakenly shot down - that is not a reasonable worry - It is easy to tell from the radar track alone the difference between an air plane and a missile. The DEW line I am suggesting would find application in civil air control also. I am assuming that Israel does require flight plans, filed in advance, as most nations do. If any plane is not authorized in Israeli air space, or significantly off flight plan, Israel can "scramble" some jets to escort it down to a low traffic density air port (and shoot it down if it refuses to comply.)

... Palestinian send their children into harms way already for propaganda purposes,...That of course is at best non-sense. More likely it is just oft repeated Israeli propaganda. I assure you 99+% of Palestine mothers weep, just like Israeli ones do, when their child is killed. This is a human trajedy effecting humans on both sides. Your attitude is strongly reminiscent of Hitler's view that some groups are not fully human; do not love their children, etc.

It seems to all come down to two questions:
How many Hezbollah have you killed and how many have you created?

For every couple of million people made homeless how many do you think will have serious thoughts of strapping on a bomb? How many out of 2 million odd refugees will take up arms if given them?

Surely it needs to be considered that the actions of the Israel military may very well perpetuate ongoing conflict, in an endless cycle of violent self justification.

Billy T, like most liberals you love to think you know what other people think, and ascribe motives to others with the intention of dismissing them in the debate, I am quite sure that the Palestinian mothers do miss their children but all you have to do is listen to the interviews with them to realize that they are proud of their children, and encourage them to these acts of violence, it all over the news were the statement of the willingness to sacrifice their children for the cause and have more for future acts of terrorism, I have listened to Fathers who are willing to send all their sons to be martyrs, mothers that say they can win the war because they have more children to sacrifice the infidels, and are willingness to have more. The other thing that I have questions about is the Bounty that the various Arab countries pay for martyrs, do you think this is encouraging these family to kill their children, to become wealthy, I've heard that a child is worth between $25,000 and $50,000 to the family that sacrifice them to the cause, a nice little cottage industry don't you think?

Billy T, like most liberals you love to think you know what other people think, ... Like your are doing here?

I was not placing thoughts into some one else's head, as you are here, only objecting to what you said was the motive of others. Thus, what you are accusing me of, and doing here, is also what I objected to when you also put thoughts into the heads of the Palestinians. See next part of my reply. ....I have listened to Fathers who are willing to send all their sons to be martyrs, ....I agree that many are proud of the son's (and daughter's) CHOOSING to become martyrs, but that is different from what you said, and what I objected to. You said:

"... Palestinian send their children into harms way already for propaganda purposes,..."

That, I said, is mainly Israeli propaganda.

I have questions about is the Bounty that the various Arab countries pay for martyrs, do you think this is encouraging these family to kill their children, to become wealthy, I've heard that a child is worth between $25,000 and $50,000 to the family that sacrifice them to the cause, a nice little cottage industry don't you think?No I do not so think. They could get more by selling their body parts, for transplants, if money were the consideration, which it is not. - That too is just more Israeli propaganda.

What compensation does Israel pay to the wife of an Israeli soldier killed "defending" his country? Does that include lifetime medical care, education for their children etc. There are groups in the US that provide these things, for example, the firefighters that died in 9/11 rescue efforts.

It all depends upon your POV. You need to understand that from their POPV these martyrs are defending their religion and land, trying to drive the occupiers out. You do know who* blew up the King David Hotel, in Israel's struggle to become a state don't you? As I (and many others) have said it all depends upon your POV whether the dead person is a "freedom fighter" or "terrorist."
-------------------------
*Hint: His initials were BG, and if memory serves, he was Israel's first prime minister.

They really did get themselves into quite a debacle.* Of course, now that the US is investigating whether Israel's use of cluster bombs violated any agreements with us, I'm sure they'll get their fair share of blame.

BillyT, dont bother. all you will get is more rhetoric and mud slinging from buffalo.

BillyT, dont bother. all you will get is more rhetoric and mud slinging from buffalo.Yes, I have noticed that his last 3 or 4 "replies" were only personnel attacts (I live in ivory tower, think I know what is going on in others minds, have theoreticl knowledge only etc.) never any discussion of the alternative suggestions for what Israel should do (and he asked for me to make a suggestion!)

They really did get themselves into quite a debacle.* Of course, now that the US is investigating whether Israel's use of cluster bombs violated any agreements with us, I'm sure they'll get their fair share of blame.
Hello Tucandan

I hope all is good

No doubt this so called investigation will be a complete white wash!!

Yes, I have noticed that his last 3 or 4 "replies" were only personnel attacts (I live in ivory tower, think I know what is going on in others minds, have theoreticl knowledge only etc.) never any discussion of the alternative suggestions for what Israel should do (and he asked for me to make a suggestion!)
Hi Billy and Devil inside

I hope all is going well

Buffalo is a decent poster, regardless of whether i/we agree with him or not... He always tries to reply to questions, please dont try to belittle the buffalo, as he has loads of info to share with us all.

Alternatively just tell me to piss off.....

Yes, I have noticed that his last 3 or 4 "replies" were only personnel attacts (I live in ivory tower, think I know what is going on in others minds, have theoreticl knowledge only etc.) never any discussion of the alternative suggestions for what Israel should do (and he asked for me to make a suggestion!)
that is why he is on my ignore list. alone.

Hi Billy and Devil inside

I hope all is going well

Buffalo is a decent poster, ...He always tries to reply to questions, ...Alternatively just tell me to piss off.....After providing such a good laugh, why would I want you to "piss off"?

I am refering to the fact that I have asked (by deleting old post and reposting it again pages later) the same 7 specific questions* of Buffalo 6 times now and he has answered only number 4.

Surely, you are jesting when you say he "always tries to reply to questions." In any case, I thank you for the laugh.
----------------------------
*Most recent posting of these seven question is in this thread, made on 23 Aug at 48 minutes past the hour (about two pages back now).

post it again, maybe he "missed" it. :p

Zakariya, thank you , Bill T, you do live in a Ivory Tower of egg head superiority, you demand that I answer your question, you are not my teacher, and you are not my parents, I have answered your questions with my rebuttal of your most humble opinion, (sarcasm), you are like many over educated people I know, and think you are smarter than the rest of the world, that is my humble opinion, but I am always ready to cross verbal swords with you but I will use my own tactics for responding to you, that is one of the facts of combat, Your opponent doesn't have to react as you want him to, the self correcting human factor, as for The Devil Inside, he has been attacking me personally for a long time, and when I deign to tell him a part of my life he tell me I'm full of shit, and that he shouldn't be held to the same spelling, punctuation, and capitalization, as he wishes to hold me, because he is to lazy to use the shift bar, that tells me a lot about how much care he takes in his research, and any other thing he posts, to lazy to, Again I thank you for you post and hope all is well in your world, GBWY -Buffalo

After providing such a good laugh, why would I want you to "piss off"?

I am refering to the fact that I have asked (by deleting old post and reposting it again pages later) the same 7 specific questions* of Buffalo 6 times now and he has answered only number 4.

Surely, you are jesting when you say he "always tries to reply to questions." In any case, I thank you for the laugh.
----------------------------
*Most recent posting of these seven question is in this thread, made on 23 Aug at 48 minutes past the hour (about two pages back now).

Hi Billy

thank you for your reply.

Actually Billy i was being serious, (its good that you laughed anyway)Buffalo is a good lad, he does like a good debate so perhaps you copuld ask the questions again...

I am sure all posters dont answer all the questions fired at them. Sometimes if i have been away for a day or 2 i forget to asnwer a question in a post just cos the thread has moved on... Or Sometimes certain questions need a little research and thought and if you have multiple threads on the go at the same time you may get ingrossed insomething else and forget abotu another... this is doubly hard if you have are working while posting....
iTake care

The Devil Inside, you are the one that made yourself look like a fool, You didn't even check up on the symptoms of Dyslexia before popping off:

dys·lex·i·a Audio pronunciation of "dyslexia" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ds-lks-)
n.
A learning disorder marked by impairment of the ability to recognize and comprehend written words.
further, as you have control of your fingers (or does dyslexia impair that as well?), the disorder would have no bearing on how you type.

You could have just checked a little information and found out what dyslexia involves, and as for typing it is a form of written word or are you that dumb that you don't realize that, again laziness on your part to not know your facts.

Dyslexia - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Dyslexia is not limited to reversing the order of letters in reading or writing. ... Dyslexia is a learning disorder. Its underlying cause is believed to be ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyslexia

Zakariya, thank you , Bill T, you do live in a Ivory Tower of egg head superiority, ...-BuffaloMore name calling and still no answers. Certainly you can use any "debating tactic" you chose, but I would not waste my time debating