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View Full Version : What others say about us and what to do with it
greenberg 03-31-08, 10:57 AM This is another interdisciplinary thread, between philosophy and psychology.
It has been said elsewhere, but without coming to practical findings:
It is interesting how neither positive nor negative external definitions are appealing or fitting.
So, since we are bombarded consistantly with implicit and explicit definitions of who and what we are and aren't (and participate in this ourselves) - what is the best practical way of dealing with these (distorted) reflections of ourselves?
Can we use it to notice things we did not before? And how?
Or is it simply noise to learn how to disregard?
source (http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1699917&postcount=155)
What say you?
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 11:08 AM I really don't give a shit about what others think about me. I have to live with myself and that's all I answer to, ME!
lucifers angel 03-31-08, 11:40 AM I really don't give a shit about what others think about me. I have to live with myself and that's all I answer to, ME!
i'd have to agree, i did care for a long time, but now i don't they can g and take a short walk of a long pier if they don't like me!
This is another interdisciplinary thread, between philosophy and psychology.
It has been said elsewhere, but without coming to practical findings:
What say you?
Has it occured to you that some of the things said to you may be true ? The fact that they don't match your self image doesn't inecessarily invalidate them.
I really don't give a shit about what others think about me. I have to live with myself and that's all I answer to, ME!
Does that make you a Unitarian ? Can I join, it sounds like fun.
sowhatifit'sdark 03-31-08, 11:59 AM Has it occured to you that some of the things said to you may be true ? The fact that they don't match your self image doesn't inecessarily invalidate them.
I certainly did. It was what I meant by this
Can we use it to notice things we did not before? And how?
which is part of what Greenberg quoted so I assume he read it and meant for this issue to be part of the discussion.
sowhatifit'sdark 03-31-08, 12:27 PM What say you?
I have often found it hard to separate out the qualities of the specific interaction from what the truth is 'inside' it. If the metacommunication is harsh or judgemental I have often wanted to reject, out of hand, the content of the message, even stripped of intensifiers (like 'unbelievably') and the intent of the one sending the message or offering a reflection. It seemed like an inevitably baby and bathwater kind of thing. More recently I have found that I can find the nugget in there by acknowledging all of my reactions to the message.
This has come up at work recently where I have a person who is very judgemental and seems to be angry about something having nothing to do with me - could be men. I have been receiving training from this person and, of course, they have lots of useful information about the tasks and my limitations, poor approaches, etc.
I am not in any ideal state about this kind of thing, but I notice an improvement in myself. The fact is she is right, at least sometimes, about poor 'attitudes' or learning styles on my part in relation to a couple of very complicated tasks. She is not a good teacher and she is kind of mean. So I allow myself the emotional reaction - mostly on my own - to the form of her interaction with me. In other words I vent a lot of anger and also some fears since she (and I) seems to have some judgements about even my potential competence. After this I am more ready to look at the content of her messages. Selfishly and with great lust and enjoyment I have used quite a number of her suggestions. Whereas in the past I would have shut out the whole thing because of how harsh she is.
I also can see that her harshness matches my own internal harshness toward myself in this case. So I get to double learn. I learn the specifics that help me with the tasks AND I learn that I do not like this kind of harshness even when it is me aiming it at myself.
An example of the latter. I often want to explain my thinking to her. The thinking that led me to make a bad decision. She cuts this off, and rudely. I do this, not to justify myself - I have recognized the mistake - but so she can show me where in my thinking I made the error. This is how I often learn. Not always, but often. Like a whip she cuts that off and just tells me again what I am supposed to do. The thing is the tasks are so complicated that it would be useful for me to understand more about the thinking in general so that in other similar but not the same situations I do not make mistakes when the new rule she is giving me does not fit.
In other words I want to make a bridge from my old, less effective state, to the newer effective one, by including my past errors in processing in the discussion. She just wants to tell me the right answer.
I do this to myself.
Interestingly this relates to our discussion, I think, in another thread, where one needs to meet people where they are as part of a process of change - your Dad, homosexual marriage. If you just, basically, shut them up, you are less likely to get actual change. At best you will get a surface change which will break down under stress.
So right now in relation to this trainer I privately express my full range of emotional reactions to her manner and choices. Then I can rego through her suggestions and find what is useful. Often a lot.
So I can accept the content without accepting the form. The weight of the other person being 'right' is lighter or has no weight at all.
Orleander 03-31-08, 12:32 PM I really don't give a shit about what others think about me. I have to live with myself and that's all I answer to, ME!
I care what others think about me. If its just one person, not so much. But if a bunch feel that way, then I need to take a closer look at how I come across or how I treat others. I'm a role model for my kids and I want to be a good one. Not a bitchy one.
I have a friend who used to get called bitch quite often and she embraced it. :shrug:
http://i12.ebayimg.com/03/i/000/c8/0c/5511_1.JPG
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:10 PM I care what others think about me. If its just one person, not so much. But if a bunch feel that way, then I need to take a closer look at how I come across or how I treat others. I'm a role model for my kids and I want to be a good one. Not a bitchy one.
I have a friend who used to get called bitch quite often and she embraced it.
I'd rather be called a bitch by others than to succumb to their wants and desires if only to placate them. ;)
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:12 PM Does that make you a Unitarian ? Can I join, it sounds like fun.
No, it makes me who I'am and what I stand for. I'm always willing to listen and try to see anothers point of view but if it conflicts with what I already believe then I will reject it and stand firm to my way of being no matter what others may say.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:15 PM I'd rather be called a bitch by others than to succumb to their wants and desires if only to placate them. ;)
But how many others need to call you a bitch before you realize you are not a very nice person. How can a person not notice they don't have any friends?
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:18 PM But how many others need to call you a bitch before you realize you are not a very nice person. How can a person not notice they don't have any friends?
It really doesn't matter that much about friends. They usually will stab you in the back the first chance they get. If you go tthrough your life and end up with two good friends you'll be a very lucky person. Most friends are only friends until you get into a problem, you'll see one day.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:20 PM oh cosmic, I keep forgetting how you are, a negative nellie.
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:21 PM oh cosmic, I keep forgetting how you are, a negative nellie.
Perhaps, but I've been through more years than you have so I have a little edge on you.
I only care about the opinion of people I respect.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:23 PM LOL, do I seriously come across as someone who will EVER become distrustful?
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:25 PM LOL, do I seriously come across as someone who will EVER become distrustful?
Trust must be gained not given out foolishly. ;)
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:25 PM I only care about the opinion of people I respect.
good point. I'd like to feel that way, but I worry about what people who I'm just meeting think of me. Putting my best foot forward and all that.
No, it makes me who I'am and what I stand for. I'm always willing to listen and try to see anothers point of view but if it conflicts with what I already believe then I will reject it and stand firm to my way of being no matter what others may say.
Basically you are a deeply religious person; beyond reason
shorty_37 03-31-08, 02:27 PM It really doesn't matter that much about friends. They usually will stab you in the back the first chance they get. If you go tthrough your life and end up with two good friends you'll be a very lucky person. Most friends are only friends until you get into a problem, you'll see one day.
I agree!!
good point. I'd like to feel that way, but I worry about what people who I'm just meeting think of me. Putting my best foot forward and all that.
I don't. But I have the luxury of ignoring convention mostly because I am outwardly pretty conventional. Its a shock to most people when they really get to know me well. :D
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:29 PM Its a big deal to me that parents of my children's friends don't think badly of me. As parents we tend to not let our children go to the houses of people we don't like, even if we like their kids.
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:29 PM Basically you are a deeply religious person; beyond reason
Actually I don't believe in religions at all. That being said I respect others that BELIEVE in theirs as long as they don't infringe on others rights or beliefs.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:31 PM It really doesn't matter that much about friends. They usually will stab you in the back the first chance they get. If you go tthrough your life and end up with two good friends you'll be a very lucky person. Most friends are only friends until you get into a problem, you'll see one day.
I've never had that happen to me. :shrug: I still write my best friend from high school and college. This is 20+ yrs later.
I would think if you have this happen to you over and over, you are a crappy friend picker. lol
Its a big deal to me that parents of my children's friends don't think badly of me. As parents we tend to not let our children go to the houses of people we don't like, even if we like their kids.
Do you behave badly as a rule? I'm extremely well behaved, nauseatingly polite and I never put a step wrong if I can help it. Its a question of control and I never lose it with strangers.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:33 PM No, I'm nauseatingly polite as well. And incredibly friendly. I can have a conversation with anyone (its not hard). But I worry.
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:35 PM I've never had that happen to me. :shrug: I still write my best friend from high school and college. This is 20+ yrs later.
I would think if you have this happen to you over and over, you are a crappy friend picker. lol
Nope, I am an excellant friend picker but am betrayed when they show their true colors when push comes to shove. The friend you've had for so long is only a writting friend, how many actual friends do you have that you see weekly? True friends that you'd trust with your life?
No, I'm nauseatingly polite as well. And incredibly friendly. I can have a conversation with anyone (its not hard). But I worry.
Ah I'm always seated next to the shy or awkward, since I can make pretty much anyone feel comfortable. Its an incredible asset in my work too, I can get along with anyone I choose to. But why worry? I never look beyond the obvious to what people may really be thinking. Unless they are of significance to me as family or friends or lovers or colleagues, Who cares?:shrug:
That said, I prefer friends who are frank as compared to those who prevaricate. Even if they are negative.
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:39 PM Nope, I am an excellant friend picker but am betrayed when they show their true colors when push comes to shove. The friend you've had for so long is only a writting friend, how many actual friends do you have that you see weekly? True friends that you'd trust with your life?
I think I have deeper conversations with them than friends I have here. Isn't that kinda like saying I like my relatives here more than the relatives I grew up with because I see them more??? Here I have 3 best friends and a couple hang out friends.
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 02:40 PM No, I'm nauseatingly polite as well. And incredibly friendly. I can have a conversation with anyone (its not hard). But I worry.
What do you worry about, with all of your friends it would seem that you'd have little to worry about them. :shrug:
Orleander 03-31-08, 02:40 PM ...That said, I prefer friends who are frank as compared to those who prevaricate. Even if they are negative.
LOL, that's me. Its amazing how many of my friends demand I go clothes shopping with them.
LOL, that's me. Its amazing how many of my friends demand I go clothes shopping with them.
Yeah, I've never lost a friend except for one who I dumped for personal reasons.
I just met one after 15 years a few months ago and it was like we had never been apart. :)
friends? you guys must all be still be in hs. i guess this is about innies and outies. the clan, the family
your goddamn stranger is another's child, a kids father, a brother. yet, a wall is erected.
you all are complicit in the wars, the bloodshed and the strife. the goddamn murder of the other.
sapien? i think not. more like chimps.
I only care about the opinion of people I respect.
And by pure coincidence the people you respoect are those who agree with your views.
Actually I don't believe in religions at all. That being said I respect others that BELIEVE in theirs as long as they don't infringe on others rights or beliefs.
How many of those are there ?
Nope, I am an excellant friend picker but am betrayed when they show their true colors when push comes to shove. The friend you've had for so long is only a writting friend, how many actual friends do you have that you see weekly? True friends that you'd trust with your life?
You should trust Jesus. He's everybody's friend. He even loves sinners like you
And by pure coincidence the people you respoect are those who agree with your views.
Not really, in fact I have heated debates with my closest friends. :p
If I waited for people whose views agreed with mine, I'd have a hard time finding anyone that matched on all cylinders.
Not really, in fact I have heated debates with my closest friends. :p
If I waited for people whose views agreed with mine, I'd have a hard time finding anyone that matched on all cylinders.
What happened to the thread on the parents who allowed their little girl to die ? I tried accessing it twice and got a message that I was accessing an invalid thread. Now it has disappeared. As you appear to know the ropes, I am hoping you can tell me what the problem might be.
shorty_37 03-31-08, 04:57 PM What happened to the thread on the parents who allowed their little girl to die ? I tried accessing it twice and got a message that I was accessing an invalid thread. Now it has disappeared. As you appear to know the ropes, I am hoping you can tell me what the problem might be.
Me too :shrug: I went to post a reply and it just disappeared!!! Could it be because SAM could not stay on Topic
for even one post....
Do you behave badly as a rule? I'm extremely well behaved, nauseatingly polite and I never put a step wrong if I can help it. Its a question of control and I never lose it with strangers.
ah
i believethewordyou are looking for is......manipulative
shorty_37 03-31-08, 05:00 PM I'm extremely well behaved, nauseatingly polite and I never put a step wrong if I can help it. Its a question of control and I never lose it with strangers.
Really?????? Is that why you just called me a Catty Bitch in that thread that disapeared? And why did it just vanish? :rolleyes:
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 05:03 PM You should trust Jesus. He's everybody's friend. He even loves sinners like you
You have your way in life, I'll go my own way. I don't bother others trying to convince them to believe in anything but themselves. Everyone chooses their own pathway. You believe in whatever gets you through life. I only hope that good fortune follows you no matter what prevails in your life. It is rather strange that my neighbors congregation never visited them when they became ill and couldn't go to church any longer. I, however, did help them out extensively even visiting them in the hospital and taking them to see each other when they were hospitalized. Where were the church people when they were needed? Nowhere to be found, great religion they belonged to ...not! :(
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 05:06 PM How many of those are there ?
I have one friend that is a Baptist minister, one who is a Jew, a Catholic and a sort of friend that is a Buddhist.
greenberg 03-31-08, 05:17 PM I only care about the opinion of people I respect.
What do you do with what people say to you about you in the meantime - that is, before you decide whether you respect them or not?
(It does take some time before you begin to respect someone.)
Me too :shrug: I went to post a reply and it just disappeared!!! Could it be because SAM could not stay on Topic
for even one post....
No, I think she is without honour. She insisted on anothere thread that she believed in determinism. Everything is ordained by Allah before we are born according to her.I pointed out that if we have no control over our actions, she should stop criticizing America and Israel because those countries were only carrying out Allah's will.
A subsequent thread on which I reminded her of this has disappeared without any explanation. When I returned to the thread on which she nade her original statement, I found that she belatedly posted a message to the effect that she discusses opinions which are not her own. She never qualified her statements as anyone might be expected to do by by saying something like " accordinfg to some people" or something of the kind.
I conclude her posts are unworthy of attention as she can say anything she likes but, when asked to back it up, she weazels out.
I have one friend that is a Baptist minister, one who is a Jew, a Catholic and a sort of friend that is a Buddhist.
Sounds like a nice mixed grill. No reference to the lake of fire intended, ha. ha.
I bet you have a record of Sinatr's " I did it my way"
shorty_37 03-31-08, 05:29 PM I bet you have a record of Sinatr's " I did it my way"
Along Side........Johnny Cash 's Ring of Fire :D
You have your way in life, I'll go my own way. I don't bother others trying to convince them to believe in anything but themselves. Everyone chooses their own pathway. You believe in whatever gets you through life. I only hope that good fortune follows you no matter what prevails in your life. It is rather strange that my neighbors congregation never visited them when they became ill and couldn't go to church any longer. I, however, did help them out extensively even visiting them in the hospital and taking them to see each other when they were hospitalized. Where were the church people when they were needed? Nowhere to be found, great religion they belonged to ...not! :(
Chill out man, I'm a fully paid-up atheist. I have had similar experiences to yours. In my view religious people are essentially self- seeking.,
cosmictraveler 03-31-08, 05:35 PM I bet you have a record of Sinatr's " I did it my way"
Nope, but I do have "Bad To The Bone" by George Thorogood
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_7VsoxT_FUY&feature=related
Nope, but I do have "Bad To The Bone" by George Thorogood
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=_7VsoxT_FUY&feature=related
Is it asking too much for you to keep still while I'm talking to you. That's the trouble with today's older generation: no respect
The Marquis 04-02-08, 12:00 PM ah
i believethewordyou are looking for is......manipulative
Correct.
Those who say the right thing are those who know the right thing to say.
Correct.
Those who say the right thing are those who know the right thing to say.
Dont forget the full set of conditions ,which include in the right place at the right time.
greenberg 04-03-08, 04:32 PM ...
So right now in relation to this trainer I privately express my full range of emotional reactions to her manner and choices. Then I can rego through her suggestions and find what is useful. Often a lot.
So I can accept the content without accepting the form. The weight of the other person being 'right' is lighter or has no weight at all.
So in this instance with the trainer, would it be fair to say then that you are taking a pragmatic or utilitarian approach to what others say about you?
What about non-work related relationships, like between friends, family, and strangers?
sowhatifit'sdark 04-03-08, 08:53 PM So in this instance with the trainer, would it be fair to say then that you are taking a pragmatic or utilitarian approach to what others say about you?
What about non-work related relationships, like between friends, family, and strangers?
Well, it's both pragmatic AND I take it personally. Some people seem to 'like water off a duck's back'. Not me. But this both/and method has been working for me.
It is very similar in personal relationships. Here however the reflections and information and triggers have many layers and are very complicated. The basic approach is the same, but I find more periods of bogged down or confused.
But still, utilitarian AND taking in personally and reacting. I used to think you had to choose.
(I should make it clear. I do not set as a goal to take professional relationships or stranger contacts personally. I simply do, to varying degrees. The great thing about this is I am constantly learning about myself. I think I get more information than some people. The downside is what I experienced for a long time where the utilitarian was choking beneath unexpressed taking it personally reactions)
greenberg 04-09-08, 04:07 PM I have not forgotten about this thread! I have in the meantime mulled over the topic, but without any satisfactory insights.
sowhatifit'sdark 04-09-08, 06:31 PM Perhaps if we lay out some abstract situations:
you are confronted with an accusation
you are given an analysis of why you are a certain way or your motives for doing something
you are morally summed up
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you recognize the problem in yourself
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you are not sure you have this problem
you regularly get a certain vibe from people - you are picking up an semi-consistant emotional reaction from strangers and acquaintances
you are described - given some adjectives
positive ones
neutral ones
negative ones
you are lumped in a group
What is the best method for dealing with these kinds of situations?
What successes have you had in dealing with these kinds of situations?
Did you ever break a pattern in your response to these kinds of situations and how did this help you?
What, in hindsight, do you wish you had done in these situations?
What do you wish you had the guts to do, because you think it would aid you in growth or learning, but you haven't had the guts so far?
How can you - via questioning - get the most out of this kind of feedback?
greenberg 04-10-08, 01:03 PM Perhaps if we lay out some abstract situations:
Thank you! This seems very promising.
you are confronted with an accusation
you are given an analysis of why you are a certain way or your motives for doing something
you are morally summed up
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you recognize the problem in yourself
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you are not sure you have this problem
you regularly get a certain vibe from people - you are picking up an semi-consistant emotional reaction from strangers and acquaintances
you are described - given some adjectives
positive ones
neutral ones
negative ones
you are lumped in a group
What is the best method for dealing with these kinds of situations?
I don't know yet, I'm trying to find out.
Unconditional attention and listening in such situations do not seem like a viable option, though. It has been my experience that in such situations, unconditional attention and listening have negative consequences for me - be that in the form of upset, stress, closing bad deals, entering unhealthy relationships.
What successes have you had in dealing with these kinds of situations?
Very little.
One notable situation was when someone was calling me names on an internet forum (who was notorious for calling people names), and I replied "Stop with the name-calling, it's silly". The other person didn't address that part, but the name-calling did decrease significantly.
Did you ever break a pattern in your response to these kinds of situations and how did this help you?
See above. Another, although not so good example was just the other day when, as I was walking through the door of the mall, a man walked behind me and stepped on my shoes and pushed me. He apologized, said he was looking back, didn't see me. And I said "You have no business looking back!" he still went on explaining himself, when I said "Idiot!" and left. It felt good to establish the boundary. This was a kind of reply that is very new for me.
What, in hindsight, do you wish you had done in these situations?
Say No sooner and leave sooner.
Make an effort to not feel guilty or undeserving for the praise.
What do you wish you had the guts to do, because you think it would aid you in growth or learning, but you haven't had the guts so far?
Enforce my boundaries, and leave the situation if they weren't respected.
Make an effort to make a point of not feeling "I'm wrong, the other person is right".
Find a way between eye-for-an-eye and turn-the-other-cheek.
How can you - via questioning - get the most out of this kind of feedback?
By carefully reflecting on my answers and subsequent questions.
Perhaps if we lay out some abstract situations:
What is the best method for dealing with these kinds of situations?:
you are confronted with an accusation
Rapidly go through all my expressed opinions to get a general idea if the accusation is true. If it is, think of ways to address the accusation
If not, try to figure out why the accusation was made. Then take immediate revenge:D
you are given an analysis of why you are a certain way or your motives for doing something
read it with careful interest; its always interesting to know how you are viewed by people. Oftentimes, it gives a unique insight into your own interactions with them
you are morally summed up
Depends on the person. If their opinion is important to me, I will work on their summing up to see what issues they address. If not, I'll have a lot of fun getting them to tear their hair out.
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you recognize the problem in yourself
Marvelous, I love free advice.
you are given a remedy for one of your problems - you are not sure you have this problem
use future interactions as a means to locate the problem
you regularly get a certain vibe from people - you are picking up an semi-consistant emotional reaction from strangers and acquaintances
What can you do about that?
you are described - given some adjectives
positive ones
neutral ones
negative ones
See response to moral summing up
you are lumped in a group
instant extreme anger
ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
What successes have you had in dealing with these kinds of situations?
Depends on how much interest I had in dealing with them. Mostly, I overlook personalities and focus on why they are saying something.
Did you ever break a pattern in your response to these kinds of situations and how did this help you?
Yeah, I try out different modes of confrontation all the time. Mostly as a way to test if people actually follow what they say they believe. I find most people have idealistic notions of behaviour but rarely enough self control to follow them. Also very poor insight into themselves
What, in hindsight, do you wish you had done in these situations?
Shown more self restraint, rather than get all :xctd:
What do you wish you had the guts to do, because you think it would aid you in growth or learning, but you haven't had the guts so far?
Let people in.
How can you - via questioning - get the most out of this kind of feedback?
By looking for feedback I guess and recognising its usefulness
btw, in terms of feedback, may I say I enjoy your unique perspectives and careful responses?:cheers:
I thought your usual method was to act dumb, actually.
I thought your usual method was to act dumb, actually.
:xctd:
:rolleyes:
http://www.thefootballforum.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif
http://www.thefootballforum.net/forums/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif
:spank:
greenberg 04-11-08, 04:31 AM Okay, guys, with this emoticon intermezzo, you have just given a practical example of what people do with that which others say about them.
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