I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful.
The financial, artistic, and last but not least political grip that the Jew has on Hollywood.

Consider your sources. Now consider the Muslim stereotype found in that same medium.

The chutzpah

The chutzpah

Sorry, SAM, but that one fell flat.

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

Comparing atrocities is a silly business. But one thing that seems unique to me was combining genocidal urges with assembly line technology. As far as I can tell other genocides have had a more haphazard and sporadically passionate set of killing sprees.

Would be nice to get the Turkish to admit their Armenian genocide.

The financial, artistic, and last but not least political grip that the Jew has on Hollywood.

Consider your sources. Now consider the Muslim stereotype found in that same medium.

Another moderator heard from!

That delightful phrase 'the Jew' is really telling. Nice air of racist lit. Replace it with whatever race or religion and it has the same stench.

The financial, artistic, and last but not least political grip that the Jew has on Hollywood.

Consider your sources. Now consider the Muslim stereotype found in that same medium.

I would have said the "geno" part, as in a race or genetically differentiated people. And the volume per capita, which no one else has beaten so far. An idiot might suggest otherwise, of course, and they would be free to do so.

Now: which Muslim stereotype is this? If anything, it usually seems to be flipped around. Maybe we should make a list.

Geoff

The financial, artistic, and last but not least political grip that the Jew has on Hollywood.


Interesting that most of the movies today star Catholics, Scientologists and Christians of one denomination or another. Where do you see that the Jew is in control of Hollywood or is that just another "rumor" your starting up again? :shrug:

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

Personally, I am intrigued with the Holocaust because of the Jew's belief in God.
In effect, the Nazis took the religion of the Jews seriously - the Nazis were so to speak the plague that God sent over the Jews, testing his chosen nation.

Why then do Jews themselves and other people complain about what happened in the Wars?
Should the Jewish religion not be taken seriously? Does God not exist? Did God not watch the Nazis kill Jews, and allow it to happen?

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

It is the numbers, you idiot, both in absolute and relative. Not to mention it was done by not some medievial backwater tribe in the Caucasus in the 19th century, but one of the leading cultural countries (country of Goethe and Beethoven) in the middle of Europe in the 20th century.

If you are really that dumb to ask, I am curious, what other genocides do you know of, just for comparison? We will do the numbers just for educational purposes...

The holocaust wasn't such a big deal really, other than in the technology and systematic methodology used in its application.

Given the same resources, several African and Asian dictators (Pol Pot and Idi Amin spring to mind without even trying) probably could have done a much more thorough job of it.

What was the question again?

It was recent, it was on a vast scale, it was particularly cruel, it was organized and systematic, it used industrial processes, and nothing quite like that had ever happened in Europe before.

While I agree the Holocaust is a very dark piece of history, I don't feel it was any worse than the 12 million or so Native Americans killed.

In 1493, when Columbus returned to the Hispaniola, he quickly implemented policies of slavery and mass extermination of the Taino population of the Caribbean. Within three years, five million were dead. Las Casas, the primary historian of the Columbian era, writes of many accounts of the horrors that the Spanish colonists inflicted upon the indigenous population: hanging them en mass, hacking their children into pieces to be used as dog feed, and other horrid cruelties. The works of Las Casas are often omitted from popular American history books and courses because Columbus is considered a hero by many, even today


http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html

OK, but that happened a long time ago.

I'd say both were equally bad. True "genocide" - trying to exterminate a genome.

Notice Gendanken's phrasing of "the Jew", above. Curious. Suggestive. Facetious? Let's hope so.

While I agree the Holocaust is a very dark piece of history, I don't feel it was any worse than the 12 million or so Native Americans killed.




http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html

How would this high schooler (link) know so much? or is it so little?

http://www.rainforestsafari.com/Taino.htm

http://www.elboricua.com/history.html

http://hnn.us/articles/7302.html

huh?

huh?

huh what?

Another myth is the small pox infected blankets. IOW, never happened.

huh what?

Another myth is the small pox infected blankets. IOW, never happened.



I'm not gonna debate whether or not Native Americans were brutally killed on this thread...Though feel free to start another thread and we will have your debate.

But

How would this high schooler (link) know so much? or is it so little?


Who are you talking about here?

So you make a post and link to a high school paper and now you dont want to debate it?

I'm not gonna debate whether or not Native Americans were brutally killed on this thread

You just completely missed the point.

The chutzpah

arent you celebrating every holocaust memorial day? :rolleyes:

Her source was :

Sharon Johnston, The Genocide of Native Americans: A Sociological View, 1996.

I know i read it. Do you know Sharon Johnston personally? Did you at least read the links i posted? of course not.

I skimmed it...You posted three links and I was confused to your initial point...You were very vague...And one of the excerpts from your link is




Thus, according to Ward Churchill, a professor of ethnic studies at the University of Colorado, the reduction of the North American Indian population from an estimated 12 million in 1500 to barely 237,000 in 1900 represents a "vast genocide . . . , the most sustained on record." By the end of the 19th century, writes David E. Stannard, a historian at the University of Hawaii, native Americans had undergone the "worst human holocaust the world had ever witnessed, roaring across two continents non-stop for four centuries and consuming the lives of countless tens of millions of people."

Much has been said of the Taínos lately, but it wasn't until the early 1900's that the study of the Taínos took off. The origin of the Taínos was not proven until 1950 when scientists were able to trace them through their unique white-on-red pottery. Their origins are in the Orinoco and Amazon River basins - what is now Venezuela and Guianas. The Taínos began their migration, in waves, through the Caribbean Islands in approximately 900 BC. Their origins have been traced to the Village of Saladero in Venezuela.

Someone found out about these people and wrote a book, things get sensationalized and exxagerated because that is what sells. There are people all over south america, central america- same people. Doesnt seem like genocide to me. I am not being insensitive either.

Another myth is the small pox infected blankets. IOW, never happened.

Really? Guess what! Even without malicious content, when 2 very different civilizations meet, there is a disease exchange. Example, most Westerners get diarrhea in India...

So lots of Native Americans died and would have died without deliberately infecting them. Also it is not a myth, educate yourself...
(we could say it is not proven)

The 17th century

Though not germ warfare, which implies the deliberate use of germs against an enemy, the inadvertent spread of diseases across the Atlantic during the European age of exploration did tremendous damage to the indigenous populations of North and South America. The effects of the "Columbian exchange" of diseases upon the Native Americans was catastrophic, reducing the population of affected tribes by as much as 50-90%.[5] [6] When the Pilgrims arrived in the New World in 1620, the native population of the Plymouth area had already been virtually eliminated by diseases that traveled with European fishing expeditions to the waters of the Northeast. The Spanish conquest of the Aztecs in Mexico and the English predominance in North America might not have occurred if not for the devastating effect of diseases that had been previously unknown in the Americas and against which the local populations had not built up any immunities.

The 18th century

The Native American population was decimated after contact with the Old World due to the introduction of many different fatal diseases. There is, however, only one documented case of alleged germ warfare, involving British commander Lord Jeffrey Amherst and a Swiss-British officer, Colonel Henry Bouquet, whose correspondence included a reference to the idea of giving smallpox-infected blankets to Indians as part of an incident known as Pontiac's Rebellion which occurred during the Siege of Fort Pitt late in the French and Indian War (1756-1763). Historians have been unable to establish whether or not this plan was implemented, particularly in light of the fact that smallpox was already present in the region. The roots of many diseases that killed millions of indigenous peoples in the Americas can be traced back to Eurasians living for millennia in close proximity with domesticated animals. Without long contact with domesticated animals, indigenous Americans had no resistance to plague, measles, tuberculosis, smallpox or most influenza strains. [8] [9] (Attempts by missionaries to provide inoculation to local tribespeople were usually met with suspicion, thus leaving the native population completely vulnerable to epidemics.) Despite the lack of historical evidence, the claim that British and American soldiers used germ warfare against North American tribes has remained fairly strong in certain oral traditions and in popular culture. Such oral histories of smallpox infested blankets being used are especially strong in the oral traditions of native nations along the west coast of Canada.[citation needed]

The 19th century

It can be difficult to separate malice from ignorance. In 1834 Cambridge Diarist Richard Henry Dana (Two Years Before the Mast; available in Project Gutenberg) visited San Francisco on a merchant ship. His ship traded many items including blankets with Mexicans and Russians who had established outposts on the northern side of the San Francisco Bay. Local histories document that the California smallpox epidemic began at the Russian fort soon after they left. Blankets were a popular trading item, and the cheapest source of them was second-hand blankets which were often contaminated.

All i said was that smallpox outbreaks were due to human to human contact. Jeez, that other person brought it up.


800,000 Russians died from smallpox during the eighteen hundreds (Bray). By 1840, smallpox vaccination in Britain was free for all infants. Vaccination was made compulsory by an Act of Parliament in the year 1853; again in 1867; and still more stringent in 1871. Deaths from smallpox in the first 10 years after the enforcement of Vaccination was 33,515, and from 1864 to 1873 the figure more than double to 70,458 deaths (see, Compulsory Vaccination in England by William Tebb).

...Not only had poor sanitation and nutrition lain the foundation for disease, it was also compulsory smallpox vaccination campaigns in the late 19th and early 20th centuries that played a major role in decimating the populations of: Japan (48,000 deaths), England and Wales (44,840 deaths, after 97 percent of the population had been vaccinated), Scotland, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Holland, Italy, India (3 million -- all vaccinated), Australia, Germany (124,000 deaths), Prussia (69,000 deaths -- all re-vaccinated), and the Philippines. The epidemics ended in cities where smallpox vaccinations were either discontinued, or never begun, and after sanitary reforms were instituted (Smallpox Vaccination).

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

Because, considering America's most recent guilt trip over Iraq and Afghanistan, it's politically inconvenient to even mention Taliban's attempt to exterminate Hazaras.

All i said was that smallpox outbreaks were due to human to human contact. Jeez, that other person brought it up.



Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them.

That excerpt is from a letter written by General Lord Jeffrey Amherst of the British Army. Additionally it is rumored the British used the same strategy against the Continental Army.

http://www.americanrevolution.com/ppl_jeffrey_amherst.html




http://www.nativeweb.org/pages/legal/amherst/lord_jeff.html

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

What else would you need to be sure the Holocaust was evil ? More deaths ?

In my book. treating six million men women and children like animals and putting them to death methodically is evil, and to question whether it was awful shows what a stupid, insensitive person you are.

You have already been told that it is "silly" to make comparisons,. I would ask what purpose it serves. All atrocities are by definition awful.

I am not a Jew but I find it incredible that anyone could be so lacking in compassion to seek to construct a league table of atrocities. Would killing 8 million people be a bigger atrocity than 6 six million ? I think not.

In my opinion you are sick.

It was more like 11 million, 6 million of which were Jews.

huh what?

Another myth is the small pox infected blankets. IOW, never happened.



Lord Jeffrey1 Amherst's letters discussing germ warfare against American Indians

Lord Jeffrey1 Amherst was commanding general of British forces in North America during the final battles of the so-called French & Indian War (1754-1763). He won victories against the French to acquire Canada for England and helped make England the world's chief colonizer at the conclusion of the Seven Years War among the colonial powers (1756-1763).

The town of Amherst, Massachusetts, was named for Lord Jeff even before he became a Lord. Amherst College was later named after the town. It is said the local inhabitants who formed the town preferred another name, Norwottuck, after the Indians whose land it had been; the colonial governor substituted his choice for theirs. Frank Prentice Rand, in his book, The Village of Amherst: A Landmark of Light [Amherst, MA: Amherst Historical Society, 1958], says that at the time of the naming, Amherst was "the most glamorous military hero in the New World. ... ...the name was so obvious in 1759 as to be almost inevitable." [p. 15]

The history of the naming of the town of Amherst, New York, shows a similar idolizing of the general:

On April 10, 1818, the Town of Amherst was officially created by an Act of the Senate of the State of New York. This new town was named for Sir Jeffrey Amherst, an English lord who was Commander-in-Chief of the British troops in America in 1758-1763, before the American Revolution. King George III rewarded Lord Amherst by giving him 20,000 acres in New York, but Lord Amherst never visited his new lands. [From: A Brief History of the Town of Amherst, (Amherst Museum, 1997)

Smallpox blankets

Despite his fame, Jeffrey Amherst's name became tarnished by stories of smallpox-infected blankets used as germ warfare against American Indians. These stories are reported, for example, in Carl Waldman's Atlas of the North American Indian [NY: Facts on File, 1985]. Waldman writes, in reference to a siege of Fort Pitt (Pittsburgh) by Chief Pontiac's forces during the summer of 1763:

... Captain Simeon Ecuyer had bought time by sending smallpox-infected blankets and handkerchiefs to the Indians surrounding the fort -- an early example of biological warfare -- which started an epidemic among them. Amherst himself had encouraged this tactic in a letter to Ecuyer. [p. 108]

Some people have doubted these stories; other people, believing the stories, nevertheless assert that the infected blankets were not intentionally distributed to the Indians, or that Lord Jeff himself is not to blame for the germ warfare tactic.

Lord Jeff's letters during Pontiac's Rebellion

The documents provided here are made available to set the record straight. These are images of microfilmed original letters written between General Amherst and his officers and others in his command during the summer of 1 763, when the British were fighting what became known as Pontiac's Rebellion.

Pontiac, an Ottawa chief who had sided with the French, led an uprising against the British after the French surrender in Canada. Indians were angered by Amherst's refusal to continue the French practice of providing supplies in exchange for Indian friendship and assistance, and by a generally imperious British attitude toward Indians and Indian land. As Waldman puts it:

... Lord Jeffrey Amherst, the British commander-in-chief for America, believed ... that the best way to control Indians was through a system of strict regulations and punishment when necessary, not "bribery," as he called the granting of provisions. [p. 106]

The British Manuscript Project

The documents provided here are among Amherst's letters and other papers microfilmed as part of the British Manuscript Project, 1941 -1945, undertaken by the United States Library of Congress during World War II. The project was designed to preserve British historical documents from possible war damage. There are almost three hundred reels of microfilm on Amherst alone.

The microfilm is difficult to read, and paper copies even harder. Nonetheless, the images obtained by scanning the copies are sufficiently clear for online viewing. The images are of key excerpts from the letters. An index is provided to show by microfilm document number the location of the imaged documents in the microfilm set. Text files of the excerpts are also provided.

The documents

These are the pivotal letters:

Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763, suggests in a postscript the distribution of blankets to "inocculate the Indians"; Amherst to Bouquet, dated 16 July 1763, approves this plan in a postscript and suggests as well as "to try Every other method that can serve to Extirpate this Execrable Race." (This postscript spans two pages.)These letters also discuss the use of dogs to hunt the Indians, the so-called "Spaniard's Method," which Amherst approves in principle, but says he cannot implement because there are not enough dogs. In a letter dated 26 July 1763, Bouquet acknowledges Amherst's approval and writes, "all your Directions will be observed."

Historian Francis Parkman, in his book The Conspiracy of Pontiac and the Indian War after the Conquest of Canada [Boston: Little, Brown, 1886] refers to a postscript in an earlier letter from Amherst to Bouquet wondering whether smallpox could not be spread among the Indians:

Could it not be contrived to send the Small Pox among those disaffected tribes of Indians? We must on this occasion use every stratagem in our power to reduce them. [Vol. II, p. 39 (6th edition)]

I have not found this letter, but there is a letter from Bouquet to Amherst, dated 23 June 1763, three weeks before the discussion of blankets to the Indians, stating that Captain Ecuyer at Fort Pitt (to which Bouquet would be heading with reinforcements) has reported smallpox in the Fort. This indicates at least that the writers knew the plan could be carried out.

It is curious that the specific plans to spread smallpox were relegated to postscripts. I leave it to the reader to ponder the significance of this.

Several other letters from the summer of 1763 show the smallpox idea was not an anomaly. The letters are filled with comments that indicate a genocidal intent, with phrases such as:

"...that Vermine ... have forfeited all claim to the rights of humanity" (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) "I would rather chuse the liberty to kill any Savage...." (Bouquet to Amherst, 25 June) "...Measures to be taken as would Bring about the Total Extirpation of those Indian Nations" (Amherst to Sir William Johnson, Superintendent of the Northern Indian Department, 9 July) "...their Total Extirpation is scarce sufficient Attonement...." (Amherst to George Croghan, Deputy Agent for Indian Affairs, 7 August) "...put a most Effectual Stop to their very Being" (Amherst to Johnson, 27 August; emphasis in original).Amherst's correspondence during this time includes many letters on routine matters, such as officers who are sick or want to be relieved of duty; accounts of provisions on hand, costs for supplies, number of people garrisoned; negotiations with provincial governors (the army is upset with the Pennsylvania assembly, for example, for refusing to draft men for service); and so on. None of these other letters show a deranged mind or an obsession with cruelty. Amherst's venom was strictly reserved for Indians.

The French and the Indians

The sharpest contrast with letters about Indians is provided by letters regarding the other enemy, the French. Amherst has been at war with the French as much as with the Indians; but he showed no obsessive desire to extirpate them from the earth. They were apparently his "worthy" enemy. It was the Indians who drove him mad. It was they against whom he was looking for "an occasion, to extirpate them root and branch." [J. C. Long, Lord Jeffrey Amherst: A Soldier of the King (NY: Macmillan, 1933), p. 187]

Long describes Amherst's "kindliness to the French" and refers to Amherst's "intensity of feeling on these issues":

Amherst's kindliness to the French civilians was more than a military gesture. He had a warm sympathy for the countryside, an interest in people and the way they lived. "The Inhabitants live comfortably," he observed in his journal, "most have stone houses.... ....

This humane attitude was reflected in his rules for the governing of Canada. As its de facto military Governor-General he established a temporary code ... a program of tolerance and regard for colonial sensibilities....

***

Perhaps most statesmanlike of all was Amherst's recognition of the French law, ... a recognition which permitted change of national loyalty without social upheaval. [p. 137]

In contrast to these kindly feelings, Long says that Pontiac's attacks on British forts at Detroit and Presqu'Isle "aroused Amherst to a frenzy, a frenzy almost hysterical in its impotence." Long then quotes from Amherst's letter to Sir William Johnson:

... it would be happy for the Provinces there was not an Indian settlement within a thousand Miles of them, and when they are properly punished, I care not how soon they move their Habitations, for the Inhabitants of the Woods are the fittest Companions for them, they being more nearly allied to the Brute than to the Human Creation. [p.1 86]

Colonel Bouquet's poetic line, "... every Tree is become an Indian," [63k] quoted above, was his description of a contagion of fear among "the terrified Inhabitants," for whom the Indians were a part of the wildness they perceived around themselves. Indian warriors would not stand in ordered ranks; they fell back into the forests only to emerge again in renewed attack; their leaders defied British logic and proved effective against a string of British forts; these were the enemy that nearly succeeded in driving the British out, and became the target for British genocide.2

Conclusion

All in all, the letters provided here remove all doubt about the validity of the stories about Lord Jeff and germ warfare. The General's own letters sustain the stories

As to whether the plans actually were carried out, Parkman has this to say:

... in the following spring, Gershom Hicks, who had been among the Indians, reported at Fort Pitt that the small-pox had been raging for some time among them....

An additional source of information on the matter is the Journal of William Trent, commander of the local militia of the townspeople of Pittsburgh during Pontiac's siege of the fort. This Journal has been described as "... the most detailed contemporary account of the anxious days and nights in the beleaguered stronghold." [Pen Pictures of Early Western Pennsylvania, John W. Harpster, ed. (University of Pittsburgh Press, 1938).]

Trent's entry for May 24, 1763, includes the following statement:

... we gave them two Blankets and an Handkerchief out of the Small Pox Hospital. I hope it will have the desired effect.

Trent's Journal confirms that smallpox had broken out in Fort Pitt prior to the correspondence between Bouquet and Amherst, thus making their plans feasible. It also indicates that intentional infection of the Indians with smallpox had been already approved by at least Captain Ecuyer at the fort, who some commentators have suggested was in direct correspondence with General Amherst on this tactic (though I have not yet found such letters).

Notes

1 . There is some dispute about the spelling of Amherst's first name. As Lion G. Miles points out, 'Amherst always signed as "Jeff:" so there has been a long-standing controversy as to the correct spelling of his first name. I am reasonably certain that it should be "Jeffery." Those officers closest to him, his aides etc., always spelled the name that way and transcribed his orders as from "Jeffery." Official letters addressed to him from England and the British Army List have it as "Sir Jeffery Amherst" (never mind that Bouquet solved the problem by addressing him as "Jeffry"). Even the biography by Long … has the title of "Lord Jeffery Amherst," not "Jeffrey."' [Lion G. Miles, member of the board, Native American Institute at Hudson, NY, in a personal email communication, 15 November 1998]

2. The depiction of Indians as wild beasts was quite common among early American leaders, including George Washington and Thomas Jefferson. David E. Stannard writes: 'As is so often the case, it was New England's religious elite who made the point more graphically than anyone. Referring to some Indians who had given offense to the colonists, the Reverend Cotton Mather wrote: "Once you have but got the Track of those Ravenous howling Wolves, then pursue them vigourously; Turn not back till they are consumed… Beat them small as the Dust before the Wind." Lest this be regarded as mere rhetoric, empty of literal intent, consider that another of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, the Reverend Solomon Stoddard, as late as 1 703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs "to hunt Indians as they do bears."' [American Holocaust: Columbus and the Conquest of the New World (New York & Oxford: Oxford University Press (1992)), p. 241 ]

Go to index of microfilm images and text files of excerpts. Go to discussion of smallpox and Indians archived from the discussion list on early American history, IEAHCNET Go to Journal of William Trent, 1763 Additional Sources of Information

1 . Medical information - A mild form of smallpox virus, Variola minor (also called alastrim), is transmitted by inhalation and is communicable for 3-7 days. The more serious smallpox virus, Variola major, is transmitted both by inhalation and by contamination; it is communicable by inhalation for 9-14 days and by contamination for several years in a dried state. For further medical information, see Donald A. Henderson, et al., "Smallpox as a Biological Weapon: Medical and Public Health Management," Journal of the American Medical Association Vol. 281 No. 22 (June 9, 1 999).

Ann F. Ramenofsky, Vectors of Death: The Archaeology of European Contact (Albuquerque, NM: University of New Mexico Press, 1987), also discusses the question of communicability:

Among Class I agents, Variola major holds a unique position. Although the virus is most frequently transmitted through droplet infection, it can survive for a number of years outside human hosts in a dried state (Downie 1967; Upham 1986). As a consequence, Variola major can be transmitted through contaminated articles such as clothing or blankets (Dixon 1 962). In the nineteenth century, the U.S. Army sent contaminated blankets to Native Americans, especially Plains groups, to control the Indian problem (Stearn and Stearn 1945). [p. 148]

Abraham B. Bergman, et al., "A Political History of the Indian Health Service" (undated draft manuscript at http://www.sihb.org/ihs27.html (visited 4 DEC 02)), comments on the birth of the Indian Health Service:

Federal health services for Indians began under War Department auspices in the early 1 800's. At that time the Federal Indian policy was primarily one of military containment. As early as 1 802 Army physicians took emergency measures to curb contagious diseases among Indian tribes in the vicinity of military posts. The first large scale smallpox vaccination of Indians was authorized by Congress in 1 832, probably launched more to protect US soldiers than to benefit Indians. [unpaginated; quoted with permission from the author and the Seattle Indian Health Board]

2. Social and Political Effects of Disease

E. Wagner Stearn & Allen E. Stearn, The Effect of Smallpox on the Destiny of the Amerindian (Boston: Bruce Humphries (1945)), point out the social-political effects of smallpox:

Smallpox, which was introduced into the mainland of the Americas in the early part of the sixteenth century, not only decimated the native population for four centuries, but so demoralized the tribes through the terror it spread among them that it has been considered by many authorities to have been an important factor in their comparatively easy subjugation by the whites. Before the advent of the white man tribal warfare and, at times, famine made the chief inroads on the native population, but during the period of exploration and settlement the diseases of the white man, new to the native, caused terrific havoc. It is claimed that Haiti (Espanola) alone lost two-thirds of its population in the three years of Columbus's conquest, during the years 1492-1495. The two to three hundred inhabitants had quickly fallen prey not only to ruthless conquest but to a variety of infectious diseases. [p. 13]

Harold Napoleon, Yuuyaraq: the Way of the Human Being, with commentary, edited by Eric Madsen (Fairbanks, Alaska: University of Alaska, College of Rural Alaska, Center for Cross-Cultural Studies (1991)), states that epidemics caused a form of post-traumatic stress disorder and social collapse:

Compared to the span of life of a culture, the Great Death was instantaneous. The Yup'ik world was turned upside down, literally overnight. Out of the suffering, confusion, desperation, heartbreak, and trauma was born a new generation of Yup'ik people. They were born into shock. They woke to a world in shambles, many of their people and their beliefs strewn around them, dead. In their minds they had been overcome by evil. Their medicines and their medicine men and women had proven useless. Everything they had believed in had failed. Their ancient world had collapsed.

From their innocence and from their inability to understand and dispel the disease, guilt was born into them. They had witnessed mass death—evil—in unimaginable and unacceptable terms. These were the men and women orphaned by the sudden and traumatic death of the culture that had given them birth. They would become the first generation of modern-day Yup'ik. [p. 11 ] …

The survivors taught almost nothing about the old culture to their children. It was as if they were ashamed of it, and this shame they passed on to their children by their silence and by allowing cultural atrocities to be committed against their children. The survivors also gave up all governing power of the villages to the missionaries and school teachers, whoever was most aggressive. There was no one to contest them. In some villages the priest had displaced the angalkuq. In some villages there was theocracy under the benevolent dictatorship of a missionary. The old guardians of Yuuyaraq on the other hand, the angalkuq, if they were still alive, had fallen into disgrace. They had become a source of shame to the village, not only because their medicine and Yuuyaraq had failed, but also because the missionaries now openly accused them of being agents of the devil himself and of having led their people into disaster. [pp. 13-14]

3. Other writers on Amherst and smallpox

A.1 . Elizabeth A. Fenn, "Biological Warfare in Eighteenth-Century North America: Beyond Jeffrey Amherst," Journal of American History vol. 86, no. 4 (March, 2000), pp. 1552-1580:

Our preoccupation with Amherst has kept us from recognizing that accusations of what we now call biological warfare—the military use of smallpox in particular—arose frequently in eighteenth-century America. Native Americans, moreover, were not the only accusers. By the second half of the century, many of the combatants in America's wars of empire had the knowledge and technology to attempt biological warfare with the smallpox virus. Many also adhered to a code of ethics that did not constrain them from doing so. Seen in this light, the Amherst affair becomes not so much an aberration as part of a larger continuum in which accusations and discussions of biological warfare were common, and actual incidents may have occurred more frequently than scholars have previously acknowledged. [p. 1553]

A.2. Elizabeth A. Fenn expands on this theme in her book, Pox Americana: The Great Smallpox Epidemic of 1775-82 (NY: Hill and Wang, 2001), discussing widespread accusations and examples of biological warfare on the American continent during this period. Selected excerpts from the book are presented on a separate page.

B. Helen Jaskoski, "'A Terrible Sickness Among Them': Smallpox Stories of the Frontier," in Helen Jaskoski, ed., Early Native American Writing: New Critical Essays (Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1996), 136-157:

Three nineteenth-century historians who wrote about the colonial Great Lakes area recorded accounts of smallpox epidemics and their origins. The most widely known smallpox story comes from Francis Parkman's The Conspiracy of Pontiac (1870). Ottawa political leader Andrew J. Blackbird relates a similar story from the same period of the French and Indian War in his History of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians of Michigan (1887). William Whipple Warren, a Minnesota Ojibwa historian and legislator, offers two very different accounts of an epidemic that took place in Minnesota in the 1780s in his History of the Ojibway People (1885). Comparison of these historians' smallpox stories enlarges our understanding of the history and epidemiology of the disease in the particular period. The smallpox stories also offer insight into alternative conceptualizations of the experience that historians a century later envisioned as the "frontier." One other Ojibwa historian, George Copway, who does not tell a smallpox story, offers in his Indian Life and Indian History (1860) such a paradigm for understanding events of the time - including smallpox epidemics - as they were experienced by the native communities. [pp. 137-138]

An excerpt from Blackbird's History, with Jaskoski's introduction and commentary, are presented on a separate page.

C. Adrienne Mayor, "The Nessus Shirt in the New World: Smallpox Blankets in History and Legend," Journal of American Folklore 108(427):54-77 (1995):

One name is repeatedly linked to the story of the smallpox blanket: Jeffrey Amherst. In 1 851 , Francis Parkman was the first historian to document Lord Amherst's "shameful plan" to exterminate Indians by giving them smallpox-infected blankets taken from the corpses of British soldiers at Fort Pitt in 1 763 (Parkman 1991::646-651 ). The feasibility of the documented plan, whether or not it was successfully carried out, has given credibility and moral impact to the fears expressed in all poison-garment tales. The Amherst incident itself has taken on legendary overtones as believers and nonbelievers continue to argue over the facts and their interpretation. [p. 57]

D. Robert L. O'Connell, Of Arms and Men: A History of War, Weapons, and Aggression (NY and Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1989):

Marking a milestone of sorts, certain colonists during the French and Indian Wars resorted to trading smallpox-contaminated blankets to local tribes with immediate and devastating results. While infected carcasses had long been catapulted into besieged cities, this seems to be the first time a known weakness in the immunity structure of an adversary population was deliberately exploited with a weapons response. [p. 171 ]

E. R. G. Robertson, Rotting Face: Smallpox and the American Indian (Caldwell, Idaho: Caxton Press, 2001):

With the surrender of New France to Great Britain, command of the English North American military forces fell to Lord Jeffrey Amherst. An arrogant aristocrat who despised all Indians, Amherst withheld gunpowder and lead from France's former native allies, stating that England's enemies ought to be punished, not rewarded. When informed that the tribes depended on their muskets for taking game and would starve without ammunition, he remained unswayed, callously informing his aides that they should seed the complaining bands with smallpox so as to lend starvation a speedy hand. [p. 119; with footnote to Herman J. Viola, After Columbus (Washington: Smithsonian Books, 1990), 98]

In the spring of 1763, during the Indian uprising led by Ottawa Chief Pontiac, a party of Delawares ringed British owned Fort Pitt (now Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania), calling for its surrender. Captain Simeon Ecuyer, a Swiss mercenary and the fort's senior officer, saved the garrison by giving the Delawares a gift—two blankets and a handkerchief. The Indians readily accepted the offering, but still demanded that Ecuyer vacate the stockade. They had no inkling that the blankets and kerchief were more deadly than a platoon of English sharpshooters. Ecuyer had ordered the presents deliberately infected with smallpox spores at the post hospital. By mid July, the Delawares were dying as though they had been raked by a grape cannonade. Fort Pitt remained firmly in English hands. [with footnote to Robert M. Utley and Wilcomb E. Washburn, Indian Wars (New York: American Heritage, 1977; Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1987)]

The same year, British General Sir Jeffrey Amherst urged Colonel Henry Bouquet to figure some way of infecting France's Indian allies with smallpox. On July 1 3, the colonel wrote that he would attempt seeding some blankets with Variola, then send them to the warring tribes. Recognizing the risk of such a tactic, Bouquet expressed the hope that he would not catch the sickness himself. Whether the plan was ever carried out is unknown. [p. 1 24; with footnote to John Duffy, "Smallpox and the Indians in the American Colonies," Bulletin of the History of Medicine 25 (1951): 324-341]

F. Mark Wheelis, "Biological warfare before 1914," in E. Geissler and J. Moon, Biological and Toxin Weapons: Research, Development and Use from the Middle Ages to 1945 (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1999), pp. 8-34:

[Historical events and records] suggest that the use of smallpox as a weapon may have been widely entertained by British military commanders, and may have been employed without scruple when opportunity offered, possibly on a number of occasions. [p. 29]

Other Related Links

"Amherst, Anthrax And Remembering The Past", by Jordan Dill

"Plains Indian Smallpox Genocide", by O. N. Eddins "If you knew the conditions…": Health Care to Native Americans, an exhibit at the National Library of Medicine Smallpox information from MedHist, the UK's gateway to resources for the history of medicine The Sunshine Project an international non-profit organization working against the hostile use of biotechnology Smallpox: the Weapon, an article by Dan Eden 1st SPOT Bioterrorism, information about various diseases and bioterror History of Biowarfare NOVA Online (Public Broadcasting System) Center for Biosecurity, an independent, non-profit organization of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, with its base of operations located in Baltimore, Maryland. Institute for Global Health and Security , The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, providing research, training and policy initiatives in the areas of biodefense and public health preparedness. Smallpox books and other materials from Geometry Online Learning Center Author of this WWW site is Peter d'Errico.

Copyright, Peter d'Errico and NativeWeb Submitted by sdc - Journal #491 9/8/05 Return to Top
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http://www.lenapeprograms.info/Wisdom/smallpox.htm

I hope that this puts to rest your inability to research what you believe to find out the truth instead of guessing at what happened.

It was more like 11 million, 6 million of which were Jews.

Sorry, I got distracted by all the references to Jews. There were Gypsies, the handicapped, the mentally deeble, in fact anyone who did not fit in with the notion of a master race.

Mexicans, blacks, Russians, Poles, Jehova's Witnesses, gays, rebellious Nazis...

...Mexicans?

Interesting, the Americans get blamed for spreading smallpox and it was the English who did it?

Colonel Henry Bouquet to General Amherst, dated 13 July 1763

Henry Bouquet (1719 – September 2, 1765) was a prominent British Army officer in the French and Indian War and Pontiac's War.

Field Marshal Jeffery Amherst, 1st Baron Amherst of Montreal KB (sometimes spelled Geoffrey, or Jeffrey, he himself spelled his name as Jeffery) (January 29, 1717 – August 3, 1797) served as an officer in the British Army and as Commander-in-Chief of the Forces.

Captain Simeon Ecuyer, a Swiss mercenary.

Yes, the British were the ones who came up with the plan, simple research, and it was a Swiss Officer in British service who implemented it, Captain Simeon Ecuyer,

The history of the naming of the town of Amherst, New York, shows a similar idolizing of the general:

Not by the colonist, the Governor, who was British name the town, the people wanted to call it, "Norwottuck",

Yes, the Royalty, the cream of British Society, and Swiss Aristocracy who came up with the plan and the Americans get the blame.

A little research, The United States didn't exist at the time, it was a English Coloney.

Another moderator heard from!

That delightful phrase 'the Jew' is really telling. Nice air of racist lit. Replace it with whatever race or religion and it has the same stench.

Shut up, willya?


Geoffp:
I would have said the "geno" part, as in a race or genetically differentiated people. And the volume per capita, which no one else has beaten so far. An idiot might suggest otherwise, of course, and they would be free to do so.
Read this twice.

Pause.

What?

Now: which Muslim stereotype is this? If anything, it usually seems to be flipped around. Maybe we should make a list.
I'm not hellbent on saying its only a stereotype- stereotypes rear a truth in their womb- but there is a remarkable overproduction of the Arab as evil.

Even in movies where the storyline has nothing to do with Islam (American Pie 2 or 1? ) there is an needless injection of a seedy Muslim that moves in next door and, you guessed it, he's a terrorist.

Examples:
In "Exodus" (1960), brutal Arabs kill an attractive 15-year-old Jewish girl played by Jill Hayworth; in "Cast a Giant Shadow" (1966), Arabs leer and laugh as they shoot an Israeli woman trapped in a truck; in "Network" (1976, and winner of four Academy Awards), a crusading television news commentator warns that Arabs, "the medieval fanatics," are taking control of the US; in "Black Sunday" (1977) an Israeli plays the hero, while Arabs are the villains and terrorists who want to kill Superbowl spectators, including the President of the United States; in "The Delta Force" (1986), "Iron Eagle" (1986), and "Death Before Dishonor" (1987), Hollywood shows viewers how to deal decisively with the low-life, no-good, dirty Arab terrorists; in the Disney studio's animated film production, "Aladdin" (1992), the theme song brazenly refers to Arabia as barbaric ("It's barbaric, but hey, it's home"); in "True Lies" (1994), an Arab terrorist with nuclear weapons has to be stopped; in "Executive Decision" (1996) yet another group of Arab militants hijacks an American plane; and in "Kazaam" (1996), an Arab criminal and a black genie enjoy eating a "centuries-old Arab delicacy," a plate of goats' eyes.



And know what MGM stands for? Its an acronym for the CEO's of the company: Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer.
Both Louis B. Mayer and Samuel Goldwyn are Jews. To wit, Dreamworks is a collaboration between Steven Spielberg, David Geffen and Jeffrey Katzenberg and all three men are Jews.


CEO of CBS for more than 10 years? A Jew named Lauren Tisch. Its almost enchanting how almost every name I pull out from the board members sitting on major film companies- Columbia, Warner Bros, Twentienth Century Fox- and run through Wikipedia comes out with a bio of its being a Jew.

Now, notice the mainstream use of language in the media- in every single broadcast I've ever heard on the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, they report on the 'retaliation' efforts of the Israelis 'dending' themselves against Palestenian "attacks".

One's mind is being molded to percieve the willy Jew as the victim and the evil Muslim as the perpetrator.

Shut up, willya? Good point! Well reasoned.

What else would you need to be sure the Holocaust was evil ? More deaths ?

In my book. treating six million men women and children like animals and putting them to death methodically is evil, and to question whether it was awful shows what a stupid, insensitive person you are.

You have already been told that it is "silly" to make comparisons,. I would ask what purpose it serves. All atrocities are by definition awful.

I am not a Jew but I find it incredible that anyone could be so lacking in compassion to seek to construct a league table of atrocities. Would killing 8 million people be a bigger atrocity than 6 six million ? I think not.

In my opinion you are sick.Excellent.
We agree on something.

Geoffp:

Read this twice.

Pause.

What?

I can see from the rest of your comments that you're not too apologetic, and that you're not backing down from your absurd stance. Stryder, are you listening? This is silly.

You better not be Xev.

I'll say one thing here:

only Arabs and Muslims are identified by ethnicity and religion in the western media.

Examples:

Your source comment is from this link:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n5p-2_Sindi.html

Which is run by this group: "Institute for Historical Review". I recommend you learn a bit more about them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an American historical organization (though some have labeled it a "Holocaust denial" group)[1] that describes itself as a "public-interest educational, research and publishing center dedicated to promoting greater public awareness of history." Critics have accused it of being an antisemitic "pseudo-academic body" with links to neo-Nazi organizations, and assert that its primary focus is denying key facts of Nazism and the genocide of Jews and others.[2][3][4][5] It has been described as the "world's leading Holocaust denial organization."[6] [7] IHR published the non-peer-reviewed Journal of Historical Review.

Huh. Holocaust Revisionism and anti-Semitic accusations at American filmography. Guess that explains Kingdom of Heaven, 24, The Siege and all those recent movies with all those islamic terrorists...in which muslims are usually presented as the good guys, and everyone else as the bad guys. And who says petrodollars just accumulate in bank accounts? Never mind Rambo III, Robin Hood and all that. I give you Rules of Engagement though - noting that the use of human shields by terrorists has been actually admitted to by Hamas:

Fathi Hammad: [The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

http://www.memritv.org/clip_transcript/en/1710.htm

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=/ForeignBureaus/archive/200611/INT20061103b.html

Speaking of Kingdom of Heaven: Fiddle (Abou El) Fadl. A reputation unreputed.

Geoff

I'll say one thing here:

only Arabs and Muslims are identified by ethnicity and religion in the western media.

That is bollocks.

Your source comment is from this link:


You just made gendanken's point. ;)

Really, Sam? How is that? She wasn't being facetious.

The author of that document is Abdullah Mohammad Sindi.

*****************************

"Hi! I'm Abdullah Mohammad Sindi! You may remember me from such documents as:

Interviewer: "Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said that he thinks that the Holocaust is a myth. However, he also said some European countries insist that millions of innocent Jews were killed during World War II by Hitler, and asked why the Europeans don’t give part of their land to the Jews if they are correct. What is your view?"

Dr. Sindi: "I agree wholeheartedly with President Ahmadinejad. There was no such a thing as the 'holocaust.' The so-called 'holocaust' is nothing but Jewish/Zionist propaganda. There is no proof whatsoever that any living Jew was ever gassed or burned in Nazi Germany or in any of the territories that Nazi Germany occupied during World War II. The Holocaust propaganda was started by the Zionist Jews in order to acquire worldwide sympathy for the creation of Israel after World War II. I detailed all of this in my book (The Arabs and the West: The Contributions and the Inflictions).

"I also wrote a detailed article titled 'The Holocaust is a Typical Zionist Myth' (http://abbc.net/sindi/typic.htm ).

http://www.memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP106506

And from some of the links on my homepage! (http://members.aol.com/AMS44AMS/) including those to other Holocaust Deniers such as:

The Hoax of the Twentieth Century: The Case Against the Presumed Extermination of European Jewry, by Arthur R. Butz

The Six Million Swindle: Blackmailing the German People for Hard Marks with Fabricated Corpses, by Austin J. App

Did Six Million Really Die?: The Truth at Last (Historical Fact ; no. 1), by Richard E Harwood

But today I'm here to talk to you about the pernicious Jews in Hollywood!"

********************************************

Oh, yes. Quite the unbiased presenter, is our lad Sindi.

Geoff

Does any of that change what gendanken posted?

Could you point out which fact she posted is not true?

That Arabs and Muslims are unfairly targeted by Hollywood. But since you have taken up her spear, then you may comment on my rebuttal - which parts of my response are incorrect? Does her citing from a notoriously biased source really support her argument?

...Mexicans?

Indeed. The Nazis were all over the world.

That Arabs and Muslims are unfairly targeted by Hollywood. But since you have taken up her spear, then you may comment on my rebuttal - which parts of my response are incorrect? Does her citing from a notoriously biased source really support her argument?


Did she cite it? I did not see the link.

She presented a list of examples to support her argument. Why don't you attack what she did post?

She quoted a chunk of text from the link I gave, without citing the link. (One might wonder why, or perhaps not wonder if it might lead one to A.M. Sindi and his penchant for antisemitism. Intellectual dishonesty, perchance?)

I simply searched on a chunk of her uncited quote and lo and behold there it was in all its majesty! I suppose it might be pure chance a la some kind of "thousand monkeys theorem" but it strikes me as unlikely. Meanwhile, my list of examples seems to stick in the craw of her list of examples.

Rebuttal?

She quoted a chunk of text from the link I gave, without citing the link. (One might wonder why, or perhaps not wonder if it might lead one to A.M. Sindi and his penchant for antisemitism. Intellectual dishonesty, perchance?)

I simply searched on a chunk of her uncited quote and lo and behold there it was in all its majesty! I suppose it might be pure chance a la some kind of "thousand monkeys theorem" but it strikes me as unlikely. Meanwhile, my list of examples seems to stick in the craw of her list of examples.

Rebuttal?

Hmm so you'd rather not rebut the points she made. Why? Are they false?

Hmm so you'd rather not rebut the points she made. Why? Are they false?

Hmm so you didn't want to see my sentence:

Meanwhile, my list of examples seems to stick in the craw of her list of examples.

Why? Is it false?

Anybody noticed that the OP hasn't participated in this thread? Which is worthless by the way except the good info on germ warfare.

Roman should be kicked in the ass for starting inflamatory threads....

Mexicans, blacks, Russians, Poles, Jehova's Witnesses, gays, rebellious Nazis...

it was slavs in general with a point to go after the poles and lets not forget the gays

Hmm so you didn't want to see my sentence:



Why? Is it false?

Your list of examples actually embraces the same concept as hers does. You just haven't looked closely at the difference between what she is saying and what you are saying.

Meanwhile try this:

Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People

Where are the human images of Arabs and Arab Americans? That’s the topic of a new film called “Reel Bad Arabs: How Hollywood Vilifies a People.” The book and the film explore the American cinematic landscape to reveal a stark pattern of Arab stereotyping and its disturbing similarity to anti-Semitic and other racist caricatures through history.

http://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/19/reel_bad_arabs_how_hollywood_vilifies


When he first started investigating and documenting Hollywood’s image of Arabs from 1896 to the present, Shaheen said, he thought he’d “crank out the book in a couple of years.” The trouble was, he soon discovered, more films kept coming out every year, each one even worse than the last. Shaheen reviewed more than 900 films, many of which are all too easily available on network TV, cable, or videocassette. Others he had to find in the Library of Congress, New York City’s Museum of Modern Art, and in film libraries at UCLA and other film centers. Some early silent films have been lost.

Shaheen located the films by searching for Arab names and plots, punching key words like “Arab” and “camel” in computer search engines, and reading reviews of every motion picture made. This took a lot longer than he ever imagined. “After four or five years,” he said, “my friends stopped asking when I was going to finish the book.”

As he researched movies, Shaheen also began collecting material illustrating the treatment of Arabs and other Middle Easterners in eight years of U.S. television for The TV Arab “The ugly images are the same,” Shaheen said, “but in motion pictures there are just more of them.”

Asked if he has seen any improvement in the realistic portrayal of Arabs since he began his research two decades ago, Shaheen demurred. “There seems to be a Saddam Hussain/Osama bin Laden industry in Hollywood, the U.S. military and the news media,” he noted.

Not surprisingly, Israel is a vital part of the equation.

Genocides are bad and that, but I don’t pay tribute or remember any victims of any genocide or atrocity, I’ve never been to any memorials and I don't plan on attending any. I think most people are like that.

People need to learn from the past, not sob about it like old women.

The current German generation had nothing to do with the holocaust, they have nothing to be ashamed of, they don’t owe anyone anything. If certain Jews keep pestering Germany for compensation and sympathy I think the Germans should get together, construct a massive oven and turn those snakes into ash!

People need to move on. This is 2008 not the 1940s.

Now, notice the mainstream use of language in the media- in every single broadcast I've ever heard on the Isreali-Palestinian conflict, they report on the 'retaliation' efforts of the Israelis 'dending' themselves against Palestenian "attacks".

One's mind is being molded to percieve the willy Jew as the victim and the evil Muslim as the perpetrator.

You could make the case you are making without being racist.
The willy [sic] Jew.
Israel's digusting PR campaign does not justify your use of language or racial caricatures.
Is fight fire with fire going to be your style of moderation?

Well it's true. The Muslims are the purps. They aren't defending themselves.

Your list of examples actually embraces the same concept as hers does. You just haven't looked closely at the difference between what she is saying and what you are saying.

Meanwhile try this:



http://www.democracynow.org/2007/10/19/reel_bad_arabs_how_hollywood_vilifies

I had a look. Which films? I've given examples of the reverse association. What of them then?

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful.

The deaths of millions of people due to the cruelty of other human beings is always awful. If you don't see it, most likely you have a problem empathising with other human beings.

Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

What "total fascination"?

People need to learn from the past, not sob about it like old women.

Should we not sob at wasted life and senseless killing?

What does it say about somebody who can be blase about things like that? Has too much playstation numbed our humanity?

The current German generation had nothing to do with the holocaust, they have nothing to be ashamed of, they don’t owe anyone anything.

Personally, as a political entity, or both?

If certain Jews keep pestering Germany for compensation and sympathy I think the Germans should get together, construct a massive oven and turn those snakes into ash!

Are you advocating anti-semitic violence?

I had a look. Which films? I've given examples of the reverse association. What of them then?

I give up. :shrug:

only Arabs and Muslims are identified by ethnicity and religion in the western media. Indians (dot and feather), Mexicans, Japanese, Tibetan and other romantic type Buddhists, Black Christian ministers,

there are a few others. And we note that Arabs - especially Muslim ones - often make a point of identifying themselves by ethnicity and religion on American media.

Meanwhile, the Holocaust had some unusual features among genocides -

for one, it was industrialized. Professional engineers designed the mass killing facilities. Modern bureaucratic and military and communication agencies were used. The tools of modern industrial civilization were turned to something modern industrial civilization was supposed to have risen above.

For another, the people selected for extermination were mixed into the general population to begin with - it wasn't a matter of wiping out the traditional enemy villages or the rivals for territory but rounding up the neighbors next door, the family down the hall, even the inlaws and cousins and friends and associates. German, central European, society killed off part of itself.

For a third, it was cruelly done. The victims were often starved and beaten and worked as slaves for months on end before dying. Medical experiments were done. Humiliations and degradations were emphasized. This was to those friends, associates, neighbors, etc.

It's a big deal to members of Western civilization because it was a Western civilization - and one of the best, the brightest, the most admirable - turning against itself, and destroying itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

The major genocides of recent history

Nuremberg (The Holocaust)
Bosnian genocide
Rwandan Genocide
Darfuri Genocide

Of those major ones, only the Nuremberg group (The majority in Jews) are building their ethnic group back up because they were spread out, outside Germany. They have sworn that this will never happen again to them. If you were part of that group, you will feel the same way.

Unfortunately, no one out side these victims group are doing anything about this crimes against humanity. Otherwise, we would not be having these repeats again and again. If the ethnic Jews were not vocal about it, we would have forgotten about anytype of genocide anywhere and this would have continued ad infintum....

It is not the job of the Jews only to be the guardian of humanity...it is time we all are.

Ethnic cleansing is just wrong...and barbaric. And it is a big deal no matter what ethnic group you belong to.

Indians (dot and feather), Mexicans, Japanese, Tibetan and other romantic type Buddhists, Black Christian ministers,


All of them?

It's a big deal to members of Western civilization because it was a Western civilization - and one of the best, the brightest, the most admirable - turning against itself, and destroying itself.

We don't do body counts?

The chutzpah

Sorry, SAM, but that one fell flat.

I missed this :)

Beyond (http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Chutzpah-Misuse-Anti-Semitism-History/dp/0520245989) Chutzpah (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b), then? :p

Uhm

Your source comment is from this link:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n5p-2_Sindi.html

Which is run by this group: "Institute for Historical Review". ..
And?

“ The Institute for Historical Review (IHR), founded in 1978, is an American historical organization (though some have labeled it a "Holocaust denial" group)[1] that describes itself as a "public-interest educational, research and publishing center dedicated to promoting greater public awareness of history." Critics have accused it of being an antisemitic "pseudo-academic body" with links to neo-Nazi organizations, and assert that its primary focus is denying key facts of Nazism and the genocide of Jews and others.[2][3][4][5] It has been described as the "world's leading Holocaust denial organization."[6] [7] IHR published the non-peer-reviewed Journal of Historical Review. ”

And?
The author of that document is Abdullah Mohammad Sindi.
And?
The author of the following is a Jew:



... Jews are represented in the media business in numbers far out of proportion to their share of the population ... In a few key sectors of the media, notably among Hollywood studio executives, Jews are so numerically dominant that calling these businesses Jewish-controlled is little more than a statistical observation.
-Jewish historian and journalist Jonathan J. Goldberg from Jewish Power: Inside the American Jewish Establishment.
Source (http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n5p-2_Sindi.html)
And?
To wit, one of the most ubiquitous references is the book An Empire Of Their Own: How The Jews Invented Hollywood written by Neal Gabler.

A jew.

Does it matter that the author is named Sindi or Goldberg or Marshmallow or Fifi?
Tell me then- do you care that Darwin was an Anglican and his parents Unitarian, raised a Christian, that he was tortured by the implications of his research, and had chronic gas problems that literally crippled him in the winter?
You're an impeccable genius if any of this affects the factual basis of his work for you.

I recommend you learn a bit more about them here:
And I recommend you read comprehensively since how, exactly, does this refute what I said:

Huh. Holocaust Revisionism and anti-Semitic accusations at American filmography. Guess that explains Kingdom of Heaven, 24, The Siege and all those recent movies with all those islamic terrorists...in which muslims are usually presented as the good guys, and everyone else as the bad guys.
?

You're merely aping what I wrote. As much as you hate me, love, its surprising you'd do my work for me.

And who says petrodollars just accumulate in bank accounts? Never mind Rambo III, Robin Hood and all that.
A lark- "petrodollars" is non sequitur.


Stryder, are you listening? This is silly.
Your thumb must be a leperous stump by now from all that sucking you do when running to Stryder.

Stwwwwwyder, sheeee's beaing meeeeeeeennnn and wacist!!!

S.A.M
I'll say one thing here:

only Arabs and Muslims are identified by ethnicity and religion in the western media.
Come one, you're making this way easy.
Joy Luck Club, Chinese
Fools Rush In, Mexican

Come on honey, ALL of them? :)

arent you celebrating every holocaust memorial day? :rolleyes:

You're the one who should be celebrating. The Holocaust is the only reason you have a homeland.

SAM
Come on honey, ALL of them?
Nyup.

A scientist cannot afford to whore absolutism as you do. You said "only" Arabs and Muslims.

... Jews are represented in the media business in numbers far out of proportion to their share of the population ... In a few key sectors of the media, notably among Hollywood studio executives, Jews are so numerically dominant that calling these businesses Jewish-controlled is little more than a statistical observation.

Not just Hollywood, but the porn industry, sex slave industry, and of course, the diamond industry, although India just recently topped them after 500+ years on top.

- N

although India just recently topped them after 500+ years on top.

Back this up.

SAM

Nyup.

A scientist cannot afford to whore absolutism as you do. You said "only" Arabs and Muslims.

Well I've seen plenty of cases where others are not, but have yet to see to a Muslim or Arab not identified as one or other; which makes me wonder why. :p

...Of course, nobody has pity for Hazaras, even though they're mentioned on the first page. How quickly we forget. That is why it's always about Jews.

aha!!

gendy vs sam
this outta be fun

and of course, the diamond industry, although India just recently topped them after 500+ years on top.



Is this what you are talking about?

Eighty per cent of the world's diamond market is controlled by De Beers, who in their turn are controlled by the Oppenheimer family.

aha!!

gendy vs sam
this outta be fun

Stop drooling, there is no vs.

She's right, I'm wrong. :shrug:

It is a powerful political tool; there are many more, far worse genocides that have happened, but none of them translate into much political power.

I give up. :shrug:

Gendanken's point might be true for part of the period described, but it comes to a juddering halt in 1996. Since then, it's entirely the other way around.

And there we rest.

Sociopaths are not confined to the norms of society. They can use emotive arguments to play the rest of us like fiddles.

Gendanken's point might be true for part of the period described, but it comes to a juddering halt in 1996. Since then, it's entirely the other way around.

And there we rest.


No here we move on to Jack Shaheen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Shaheen) and Reel Bad Arabs (http://www.amazon.com/Reel-Bad-Arabs-Hollywood-Vilifies/dp/1566563887/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207367754&sr=8-1) (2001) and thence onto the wonders of post 9/11 hysteria, Guilty: Hollywood's Verdict on Arabs After 9/11 (http://www.amazon.com/Guilty-Hollywoods-Verdict-Arabs-After/dp/1566566843/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207367754&sr=8-2) (2008)

Uhm

You should have stopped here.

The author of the following is a Jew:

My turn!

And?


Does it matter that the author is named Sindi or Goldberg or Marshmallow or Fifi?

It kinda matters if his website is devoted to Holocaust denial, Xev. That's sort of the point. Makes the rest of his stuff unreliable.

Tell me then- do you care that Darwin was an Anglican and his parents Unitarian, raised a Christian, that he was tortured by the implications of his research, and had chronic gas problems that literally crippled him in the winter?

Nope. Did he deny the Holocaust? Because this is the implication we're discussin.

You're an impeccable genius if any of this affects the factual basis of his work for you.

True, and true. Look up: poisoned tree. But maybe I'm being too strong. After all, even Hitler got the trains to run on time.

And I recommend you read comprehensively since how, exactly, does this refute what I said:

Are you familiar with any of those works? All present the opposition to Arabs or Arab nationalists as terrorists or extremists. They even invoke conspiracies. Your timeline might be valid until 1996; but after that, it's Saudi-time.

A lark- "petrodollars" is non sequitur.

It ain't. What do you think the Saudis are doing with their money besides collecting gold toilet seats? I hear CAIR has a pretty full expense account, for starters. Or used to.

Your thumb must be a leperous stump by now from all that sucking you do when running to Stryder.

:yawn: Pointwess. Obey the rules the others have to. This is fairness. I know you're here for shits and giggles, and I can respect that, but come on.

Geoff

I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

its only popular in Jewish communities, they got the most money so they spread their history of suffering to everyone else.

No here we move on to Jack Shaheen and Reel Bad Arabs (http://www.amazon.com/Reel-Bad-Arabs-Hollywood-Vilifies/dp/1566563887/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207367754&sr=8-1) (2001) and thence onto the wonders of post 9/11 hysteria, Guilty: Hollywood's Verdict on Arabs After 9/11 (http://www.amazon.com/Guilty-Hollywoods-Verdict-Arabs-After/dp/1566566843/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207367754&sr=8-2) (2008)

And what period is their stuff drawn from? I assume you've read them, then.

its only popular in Jewish communities, they got the most money so they spread their history of suffering to everyone else.

For fuck's sake.

For fuck's sake.

you don't agree?

Nope.

Nope.

well allright than, what is your point of view? Why is Holocaust labeled and known better than the deaths of much more Russians at that same time?

And what period is their stuff drawn from? .

I think "after 9/11" sort of covers it. That was in 2001 in case you forgot.

you don't agree?

Nope.

In that case may I also suggest son of Holocaust survivor, Norman Finkelstein? <---Jew

The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207368612&sr=8-1)

And

Beyond Chutzpah: On the Misuse of Anti-Semitism and the Abuse of History (http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Chutzpah-Misuse-Anti-Semitism-History/dp/0520249895/ref=pd_bbs_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207368612&sr=8-3)

Draqon, they almost got half the Jews in the world, who were completely defenseless. The Russians had an army, and I'm sorry that more people don't recognize their massive losses either, but it doesn't imply they were any less important. It was the culmination of 2000 years of previous abuse, and subjectively more shocking to me because of that. Russians and Germans fought wars. The Jews never laid a hand on Jerry.

I think "after 9/11" sort of covers it. That was in 2001 in case you forgot.

Then, you having read the works, I'm sure you can tell me what their examples are. Letting alone the point - as even Gen mentions - that Arabs aren't alone in their negative portrayal, or that it's all been one way. OK?

In that case may I also suggest son of Holocaust survivor, Norman Finkelstein?

The Holocaust Industry: Reflections on the Exploitation of Jewish Suffering (http://www.amazon.com/Holocaust-Industry-Reflections-Exploitation-Suffering/dp/185984488X/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207368612&sr=8-1)

Ah! The Jewish stamp of authenticity! Well, he must be right then. Never mind that the rest of Judaism don't really agree with him. Let's see...I'll see your claim of "Argument from Authority" and raise you "Argument from Popularity".

Never mind that the rest of Judaism don't really agree with him

read the comments for more Jews and other sons of Holocaust survivors.

well allright than, what is your point of view? Why is Holocaust labeled and known better than the deaths of much more Russians at that same time?I doubt it is to Russian and the old Soviet block. The reason the Jewish Holocaust is big in Europe and the US is because it happened in Europe which the US still feels linked to. I'll bet in Korea the comfort girls the japanese used have gotten as much press as the holocaust, at least if you toss in what Euroamerica calls the Korean War as filling. Apartheid in South Africa.

I mean if we want to start talking about how much press per death

9/11 is the winner.

Guys and girls, I dont want another war here...I am just asking that the community that says Holocaust does not associate it merely with Jews, but also with all the victims of the Gestapo and Concentration Camp doings...

Then, you having read the works, I'm sure you can tell me what their examples are. Letting alone the point - as even Gen mentions - that Arabs aren't alone in their negative portrayal, or that it's all been one way. OK?

I prefer you to scan the sources yourself. Make sure no anti-semites and holocaust deniers lurk in the cracks, etc.



Ah! The Jewish stamp of authenticity! Well, he must be right then. Never mind that the rest of Judaism don't really agree with him. Let's see...I'll see your claim of "Argument from Authority" and raise you "Argument from Popularity".

Hmm so now the Jews are not good enough either.

So I guess, without reading anything on the matter, even after providing accredited references, you've already made up your mind then?

Why don't some of you who think other atrocities are being ignored
write about them
start threads about them
instead of making the Jewish holocaust the center of discussion.

You have a forum. You obviously think other atrocities are being ignored. Go for it.

I wouldn't know where to put a limit on how much we should focus on the Holocaust, but that other genocidal periods and places should be looked at I agree with.

Start a discussion of Rwanda or the Albanian genocide at the hands of Turkey. I mean the Germans have at least to a great degree admitted what happened. In Turkey it is illegal to mention the damn thing, I think even in novels you can get messed up.

But this running around saying what's so important about the Holocaust just comes off silly.

And Hitler would definitely gotten round to many of the rest of us if he'd won.
Sam, an outspoken Muslim woman, good chance with non-aryan skin tone.... man, toast.

read the comments for more Jews and other sons of Holocaust survivors.

Same thing: argument from authority. Cited because they're Jewish. If you want to make the argument yourself, go ahead; but if you're also going to claim the Holocaust never happened, then you have the same problem as Sindi and deserve the same investigation and criticism.

I prefer you to scan the sources yourself. Make sure no anti-semites and holocaust deniers lurk in the cracks, etc.

So you see my criticism of Xev's sources as a joke. I illustrate a common skein in her accusation but you take umbrage to that? Because, as we know, Holocaust denial and the charge of "Jews own the media" never, ever go hand in hand.

Hmm so now the Jews are not good enough either.

So I guess, without reading anything on the matter, even after providing accredited references, you've already made up your mind then?

Ahem. Neither have you read the sources you cite, since you haven't piped up about them, although you're happy enough to hint around about them. I've illustrated the opposite position to yours, and provided evidence, but you ignore it.

The question was:


I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps?

Is there a reason why we cannot address it?

And Hitler would definitely gotten round to many of the rest of us if he'd won.
Sam, an outspoken Muslim woman, good chance with non-aryan skin tone.... man, toast.

But...but...he made the trains run on time! Surely that counts for something! Dunnit?

:rolleyes:

The question was:

“ Originally Posted by Roman
I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Surely all the other genocides in the 19th and 20th centuries were just as bad? What's with the total fascination of Nazis and their camps? ”

Is there a reason why we cannot address it?

Is there a reason you're not? I mean, you could just write about them or something, since the issue is close to your heart. Instead, though, you, Roman and Xev go after the Jewish one. That's kind of an odd way to bring attention to the other genocides, innit?

:shrug:

Ahem. Neither have you read the sources you cite, since you haven't piped up about them, although you're happy enough to hint around about them. I've illustrated the opposite position to yours, and provided evidence, but you ignore it.

I've read the Finkelsteins, in fact, I've quoted him before. I doubt you've got around to the Ilan Pappe yet, so why bother? :)

Shaheen also I already quoted and linked earlier in the thread. I think 900 films over 20 years makes for a lot of evidence. And thats not including whats in the new book.

But...but...he made the trains run on time! Surely that counts for something! Dunnit?

:rolleyes:

I'm not sure who you are mocking. I like that kind of humor.

Is there a reason you're not? I mean, you could just write about them or something, since the issue is close to your heart. Instead, though, you, Roman and Xev go after the Jewish one. That's kind of an odd way to bring attention to the other genocides, innit?

:shrug:

We're discussing the reason for the fascination with the Holocaust. Surely the PR behind it is worth a discussion?

its only popular in Jewish communities, they got the most money so they spread their history of suffering to everyone else.

...Said by the offspring of the biggest neo-nazzi state to date. :)

We're discussing the reason for the fascination with the Holocaust. Surely the PR behind it is worth a discussion?

Like I said before, we appear to be obsessed with Jews only because you mention them in 90% of your posts, while you should be explaining the phenomenon of attempted genocide of Hazaras by Taliban.

I've read the Finkelsteins, in fact, I've quoted him before. I doubt you've got around to the Ilan Pappe yet, so why bother? :)

Shaheen also I already quoted and linked earlier in the thread. I think 900 films over 20 years makes for a lot of evidence. And thats not including whats in the new book.

Actually the issue was the "evil Joos in the media", not Finkelstein per se, but I'll give him a read if I have the time. Sorry you don't like progress on Pappe, but I don't have unlimited time. :shrug:

We're discussing the reason for the fascination with the Holocaust. Surely the PR behind it is worth a discussion?

"PR"?

Is that where we remind ourselves that prejudice was turned into a tool for massacring millions of people? I thought you were all about that. Or for certain examples thereof, anyway.

There is the Karma of starting off on the wrong foot.

Originally Posted by Roman
I'm not really sure what makes the holocaust so awful. Admittedly could be the incredibly sloppy wording of someone who just spat something out - which, it seems, might not be so important to him - but it nevertheless set the tone for me.

I'm not sure who you are mocking. I like that kind of humor.

Sam and Xev/Gen. I promise more. ;)

...Said by the offspring of the biggest neo-nazzi state to date. :)

go look in your own country :mad: you'll find more of them there

go look in your own country :mad: you'll find more of them there

Yea, they stumbled down from Moscow and St. Petersburg to buy dachas in my homeland and to kill each other there.

You know a small subset of Native Americans helped Countilpro and the BIA.

Let's talk about the coming holocaust of homo sapiens.

The gene splicers are coming and they make the Nazis look like little boys with sling shots.

Yea, they stumbled down from Moscow and St. Petersburg to buy dachas in my homeland and to kill each other there.

nope, rather they joined the Nazis to fight against the evil Soviets, because Nazis saved your country? ;) Haven't they?

Actually the issue was the "evil Joos in the media", not Finkelstein per se, but I'll give him a read if I have the time. Sorry you don't like progress on Pappe, but I don't have unlimited time. :shrug:


Of course


"PR"?

Is that where we remind ourselves that prejudice was turned into a tool for massacring millions of people? I thought you were all about that. Or for certain examples thereof, anyway.
Are you saying PR is a bad thing?

Ah, the seeds of holocaust arise again...

Are you saying PR is a bad thing?

I'm saying your use implies insincerity.

Well, that's it. I'm gone. I leave the field to Sam, draqon, Xev and anyone else who isn't really attached to their dignity. Good evening.

I'm saying your use implies insincerity.

Its a fascinating study actually.

Did you know there are literally thousands of Holocaust memorials (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E2DC153DF932A25750C0A9629582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) and yet, still more are being planned?

There was even an exhibition in New York by American Jews who are fed up of zionists misusing the victims of the Holocaust as political tools (sorry can't find a link, the exhibition was really out of the box, they had to curtain off bits because survivors who came to see it burst into tears), represented their frustration through art.

Its really strange I cannot find a single reference to it online.

Lots of Jews are worried about the misuse of antisemitism leading to its legitimisation and there are some interesting discussions in Jewsih circles about how to combat this phenomenon.

Well, that's it. I'm gone. I leave the field to Sam, draqon, Xev and anyone else who isn't really attached to their dignity. Good evening.

I was attached to your dignity, now I'm floating away.

nope, rather they joined the Nazis to fight against the evil Soviets, because Nazis saved your country? ;) Haven't they?

That's what, population of 2 mil., some of which were kids, and half of the rest fighting on the Soviet side? I told you this before, quit talking out of your ass. Your nazi president doesn't like Jews or Georgians alike, or Ukrainians; they all look "dark" to him. Did you forget that? Jews were not allowed to reside in Moscow and St. P. all the way till the fall of USSR unless they turned Christian and were therefore turned out of the best universities; did you not know that? Russia did not liberate anyone, they enslaved and grew into an empire; did you forget that? "Бей жидов, спасай Россию! (Beat Jews, save Russia!)" - did you forget that slogan? Did you forget the way Georgians were beaten and deported recently? Does the existence of Putin Youth remind you of anything? Did you forget how they dug up some Jewish grandma in Medvedev's lineage? Plug up your anus.

Its a fascinating study actually.

Did you know there are literally thousands of Holocaust memorials (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E2DC153DF932A25750C0A9629582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) and yet, still more are being planned?

There was even an exhibition in New York by American Jews who are fed up of zionists misusing the victims of the Holocaust as political tools (sorry can't find a link, the exhibition was really out of the box, they had to curtain off bits because survivors who came to see it burst into tears), represented their frustration through art.

Its really strange I cannot find a single reference to it online.

Lots of Jews are worried about the misuse of antisemitism leading to its legitimisation and there are some interesting discussions in Jewsih circles about how to combat this phenomenon.

I hear there's a big memorial for Hazaras coming: the big Buddhas are being rebuilt.

Two of those big ones would be good, plus elimination of the discrimination towards them and their branch of Islam on behalf of Sunni Muslims. Plus a couple of threads about them started by you, speaking in their defense, and perhaps seeing the current invasion of Afghanistan as positive for them.

That's what, population of 2 mil., some of which were kids, and half of the rest fighting on the Soviet side? I told you this before, quit talking out of your ass. Your nazi president doesn't like Jews or Georgians alike, or Ukrainians; they all look "dark" to him. Did you forget that? Jews were not allowed to reside in Moscow and St. P. all the way till the fall of USSR unless they turned Christian and were therefore turned out of the best universities; did you not know that? Russia did not liberate anyone, they enslaved and grew into an empire; did you forget that? "Бей жидов, спасай Россию! (Beat Jews, save Russia!)" - did you forget that slogan? Did you forget the way Georgians were beaten and deported recently? Does the existence of Putin Youth remind you of anything? Did you forget how they dug up some Jewish grandma in Medvedev's lineage? Plug up your anus.

half of the things you mentioned never happened and the other half are overly exaggerated.

Latvia really prefers to undermine those Russians living there, devoding them of many rights and privileges. And the neo-Nazism is showing on every street there, underneath the evil Soviet statues.

Load of shit with no proof

Okay.

We do have mosques in U.S.: http://www.google.com/search?q=mosque%2BNYC&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a
That's the city that was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001. I really don't like it when people talk out of their ass, S.A.M.

Sounds really nice. I'm sure the Hazaras would love it there.

Is that to say that they can't stay where they are because....?

Then stop farting.

If the US had kept their fingers out of Afghanistan, it would not be in the state it is today. Kabul University was a hangout for hippies in the 1970s for Gods sake.

wait other countries had hippies

But this running around saying what's so important about the Holocaust just comes off silly.

Roman is a college student, if I'm not mistaken.
In some colleges, it is nowadays bad to be smart and also appear so. Smart kids must pretend to be average and dumb in order to be socially accepted.

Perhaps this is what has happened to him - he might be a smart kid who has gotten into the habit of downplaying himself and the way he expresses himself.

Well I've seen plenty of cases where others are not, but have yet to see to a Muslim or Arab not identified as one or other; which makes me wonder why. Syriana, Babel, that one movie about the horse race, a few others.

I'd be interested to hear of a movie in which American Reds are not identified as such - let alone Black ministers, etc and so forth.

So, in Bollywood movies, are the Indians identified and the Americans simply taken for granted ?

btw: I actually made an attempt (earlier post) to describe some of the unusual features of the Holocaust, not present in normal slaughters, that make it more of a big deal, more striking. It really was not like the Congo, Rwanda, Darfur, Bosnia , Armenia, East Timor, Ukraine, Nanking, etc etc etc. Maybe Cambodia comes the closest.

Its a fascinating study actually.

Did you know there are literally thousands of Holocaust memorials (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B07E2DC153DF932A25750C0A9629582 60&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all) and yet, still more are being planned?

It's just that the lessons of the Holocaust haven't really been learned yet by a number of people, and even whole societies. You can point the finger at whichever specific example you prefer, however.

Roman is a college student, if I'm not mistaken.
In some colleges, it is nowadays bad to be smart and also appear so. Smart kids must pretend to be average and dumb in order to be socially accepted.

Perhaps this is what has happened to him - he might be a smart kid who has gotten into the habit of downplaying himself and the way he expresses himself.

A very kind thought.
Just so you know, I hadn't really made many decisions about Roman. I just realized how much the first step in a process has aftereffects.

Syriana, Babel, that one movie about the horse race, a few others.


Good choice.

Stephen Gaghan, director, writer
"My first step in researching what would become the film, `Syriana,' was the confrontation of an inherent bias against the Arab world. So many of my received (often received from films and television) notions were simply wrong. This was a starting point for our script and Jack Shaheen's mission over the last many years. He provides an incredibly valuable book in the breaking down of the stereotyping and racism that fires miscommunication from both sides of the ideological gulf."
http://www.amazon.com/Guilty-Hollywoods-Verdict-Arabs-After/dp/1566566843/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207398063&sr=8-1

Good choice.

Stephen Gaghan, director, writer
"My first step in researching what would become the film, `Syriana,' was the confrontation of an inherent bias against the Arab world. So many of my received (often received from films and television) notions were simply wrong. This was a starting point for our script and Jack Shaheen's mission over the last many years. He provides an incredibly valuable book in the breaking down of the stereotyping and racism that fires miscommunication from both sides of the ideological gulf."
http://www.amazon.com/Guilty-Hollywoods-Verdict-Arabs-After/dp/1566566843/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1207398063&sr=8-1

speaking of the arab world, i understand they do not view the holocaust as the west does. especially when you see the caricatures and shows on jews done in egypt for example.



Egyptian TV has begun broadcasting a month-long television series based on the ''Protocols of the Elders of Zion,'' a fabricated document that depicts Zionism as part of a Jewish plot to rule the world.

There have been international appeals to keep the series off the airwaves, including criticism from the U.S. State Department. Officials there have told Egypt and other Arab governments that their state-run television stations should not air the series.

''We don't think government TV stations should be broadcasting programs that we consider racist and untrue,'' said State Department spokesman Richard Boucher.

The series, called ''Horseman without a Horse,'' purports to portray the history of the Middle East from 1855 to 1917.

It tells the story of an Egyptian man fighting British imperialism and Zionism in the 19th and early 20th centuries.

so are you celebrating on the holocaust memorial day SAM?

"why everyone hate the jews :rolleyes:"

I note that Syriana and Babel both also illustrate the meme contrary to Xev/Gen's point above, and reinforce my case.

It's just that the lessons of the Holocaust haven't really been learned yet by a number of people, and even whole societies. You can point the finger at whichever specific example you prefer, however.

Indeed.

[Finkelstein]documents how Jewish
organizations have consistently exaggerated numbers-of slave laborers or
the amount of "victim gold" purchased by the banks-in order to secure
more money. This sort of inflation was recently repeated in an October
23 letter written by Burt Neuborne-the lead counsel in the Swiss banks
case-to The Nation. Neuborne claimed, for instance, that if one takes
into account that there were "more than 2 million wartime accounts"
whose records have been destroyed, then the $1.25 billion compensation
provided by the Swiss "barely scratches the surface of the stolen
funds." Neuborne fails to mention the findings published by the
Independent Committee of Eminent Persons, also known as the Volcker
Committee, in its Report on Dormant Accounts of Victims of Nazi
Persecution in Swiss Banks (1999). The committee established that
approximately 54,000 dormant accounts had a "possible or probable"
relationship to Holocaust victims, and of these only half had any real
likely connection. Considering that "the estimated value of 10,000 of
these accounts for which some information was available runs to $170-200
million," even Raul Hilberg, author of the seminal study The Destruction
of the European Jews, infers that the "current value of the monies in
the dormant Jewish accounts is far less than the $1.25 billion paid by
the Swiss."


Hilberg himself has accused some Jewish organizations of "blackmail,"
and Finkelstein describes in detail how this economic strong-arming was
carried out. While the high-powered lawyers representing the
organizations haggled with the Swiss, the Jewish lobby launched an
extensive campaign. This drive included the publication of
studies-supported by the Simon Wiesenthal Center-that accused
Switzerland of "knowingly profiting from blood money" and committing
"unprecedented theft," and claimed that "dishonesty was a cultural code
that individual Swiss have mastered to protect the nation's image and
prospe