View Full Version : What is love? Love and Narcissism.


TimeTraveler
09-10-06, 05:02 PM
This is a logical question, what is the rational version of love?

One theory, is that love is narcissistic. All love towards others, comes from self love, that is the theory of Erich Fromm. I think this theory makes perfect sense from a rationalist point of view. What say you?

The cornerstone of Fromm's humanistic philosophy is his interpretation of the biblical story of Adam and Eve's exile from the Garden of Eden. Drawing on his knowledge of the Talmud, Fromm pointed out that being able to distinguish between good and evil is generally considered to be a virtue, and that biblical scholars generally consider Adam and Eve to have sinned by disobeying God and eating from the Tree of Knowledge. However, departing from traditional religious orthodoxy, Fromm extolled the virtues of humans taking independent action and using reason to establish moral values rather than adhering to authoritarian moral values.
Beyond a simple condemnation of authoritarian value systems, Fromm used the story of Adam and Eve as an allegorical explanation for human biological evolution and existential angst, asserting that when Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, they became aware of themselves as being separate from nature while still being a part of it. This is why they felt "naked" and "ashamed": They had evolved into human beings, conscious of themselves, their own mortality, and their powerlessness before the forces of nature and society, and no longer united with the universe as they were in their instinctive, pre-human existence as animals. According to Fromm, the awareness of a disunited human existence is the source of all guilt and shame, and the solution to this existential dichotomy is found in the development of one's uniquely human powers of love and reason. However, Fromm so distinguished his concept of love from popular notions of love that his reference to this concept was virtually paradoxical.

Fromm considered love to be an interpersonal creative capacity rather than an emotion, and he distinguished this creative capacity from what he considered to be various forms of narcissistic neuroses and sado-masochistic tendencies that are commonly held out as proof of "true love." Indeed, Fromm viewed the experience of "falling in love" as evidence of one's failure to understand the true nature of love, which he believed always had the common elements of care, responsibility, respect, and knowledge. Drawing from his knowledge of the Talmud, Fromm pointed to the story of Jonah, who did not wish to save the residents of Nineveh from the consequences of their sin, as demonstrative of his belief that the qualities of care and responsibility are generally absent from most human relationships. Fromm also asserted that few people in modern society had respect for the autonomy of their fellow human beings, much less the objective knowledge of what other people truly wanted and needed.

The word "biophilia' was frequently used by Fromm as a description of a productive psychological orientation and "state of being". For example, in an addendum to his book The Heart of Man: Its Genius For Good and Evil, Fromm wrote as part of his famous Humanist Credo:
"I believe that the man choosing progress can find a new unity through the development of all his human forces, which are produced in three orientations. These can be presented separately or together: biophilia, love for humanity and nature, and independence and freedom." (c. 1965)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_Fromm

cato
09-10-06, 05:14 PM
What is love?
http://www.nothingtodo.co.uk/view/1567/movies/humorous-movies/snl:_what_is_love.html

Vega
09-10-06, 07:04 PM
Love is a mental disease!

Fraggle Rocker
09-10-06, 10:43 PM
I can't figure out whether by "love" he means romantic love (as distinct from erotic). He talks about Adam and Eve, but in the next breath he talks about "love" for humanity and nature.

If he simply means deep affection, it's hardly a uniquely human emotion.

Blindman
09-10-06, 10:53 PM
Love is in no way narcissistic.

Love involves sacrifice and compromise to be truly successfully in the long term.

Some may say that true happiness can only be found in love, thus the want for happiness is a narcissistic trait. One could say that those seeking love are narcissistic but once bitten by the love bug this trait is lost, the "self" becomes the "we" and the "we" can not be narcissistic.

We become the pragmatistic (for want of a better word) finding method that bonds the "us" that is opposed to the direct fulfillment of self.

Love binds our society and can not exist as a narcissistic emotion.

TimeTraveler
09-11-06, 05:29 AM
Love is a mental disease!

All emotions are mental diseases, what I asked is the rational basis behind love, not the fact that being in love can be a disease when taken to the extreme.

TimeTraveler
09-11-06, 05:43 AM
Love is in no way narcissistic.

Love involves sacrifice and compromise to be truly successfully in the long term.
I say it's narcissistic, because you have to love yourself before you can love anyone else, so this means rational love is narcissistic, your love is suicide. There are some aspects of a person that are beyond compromise, like money, property. friends, family and values.

Some may say that true happiness can only be found in love, thus the want for happiness is a narcissistic trait. One could say that those seeking love are narcissistic but once bitten by the love bug this trait is lost, the "self" becomes the "we" and the "we" can not be narcissistic.Actually "we" is narcissistic. If you love someone else as you love yourself because you see yourself in them, that's still based in narcissism, self love. Just because you share a self and your concept of self is merged does not change the fact that you view them as you view yourself while in that state.

We become the pragmatistic (for want of a better word) finding method that bonds the "us" that is opposed to the direct fulfillment of self.

When two corporations merge, they become one, and they share a sense of self, the become one self, and that is narcissism at it's finest. When you love yourself you are narcissistic. Mothers who love their babies actually are loving themselves. Men who love their wives are actually loving themselves. It's all a simple logic equation, you are doing for self, in the purest possible way. If you aren't narcissistic, why get married? If you don't love yourself, wait until you do before you get married otherwise how will you know how to treat your other half?
Love binds our society and can not exist as a narcissistic emotion.

Love is not an emotion. Love is a logical conclusion, it's the ultimate form of selfishness. It's so selfish that it leads to babies. Having a baby is perhaps the most selfish act you can commit, because the baby is the combination of him and her, that is the merger of the self into the offspring.

If you aren't selfish, why have kids? If you arent narcissistic, why love? Narcissism should be a good word, I know it has a bad reputation because people label clinically insane people narcissitic, but narcissists are capable of great love.

Love is not about sacrifice, I learned that myself so I understand where you come from, it's not sacrifice. Love of others is actually love of self. You love others as you love yourself, and a truly narcissistic person (a positively narcissistic person), will love others the same way they love themselves.

Narcissism if you look it up in the dictionary, is the logical basis behind self love.

Main Entry: nar·cis·sism
Pronunciation: 'när-s&-"si-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: German Narzissismus, from Narziss Narcissus, from Latin Narcissus
1 : EGOISM, EGOCENTRISM
2 : love of or sexual desire for one's own body
- nar·cis·sist /'när-s&-sist/ noun or adjective
- nar·cis·sis·tic /"när-s&-'sis-tik/ adjective
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/narcissism

Narcissism is according to the dictionary self love. It's a requirement if you want to properly love others. Love for others is simply when the narcissist self lover, decides to treat another person as they treat themselves.

Baron Max
09-11-06, 07:57 AM
Love involves sacrifice and compromise to be truly successfully in the long term.
Love binds our society and can not exist as a narcissistic emotion.

Hmm, there must be something wrong with "love", then, huh? Our world and our societies are more divided and hostile than ever before in history. And worse, I think, is that it's also divided and hostile on an individual basis ...everyone seems to hate everyone else, regardless of what they say or write!

Hmm, is "love" a divisive emotion?

Baron Max

S.A.M.
09-11-06, 08:27 AM
I know this is Shakespeare, but I don't remember where this is from:

Love is a smoke raised with the fume of sighs,
Being purged, a fire sparkling in lovers' eyes,
Being vexed, a sea nourished with lovers' tears.
What is it else? A madness most discreet,
A choking gall and a preserving sweet.

Got it.

(Romeo and Juliet Act 1, Scene 1)

TimeTraveler
09-11-06, 09:05 AM
Hmm, there must be something wrong with "love", then, huh? Our world and our societies are more divided and hostile than ever before in history. And worse, I think, is that it's also divided and hostile on an individual basis ...everyone seems to hate everyone else, regardless of what they say or write!

Hmm, is "love" a divisive emotion?

Baron Max


I think that is your personal assesment but you are right most people think love is hate. Love is narcissism, and it only occurs when you have a large enough ego to see yourself in others.

I don't think any emotion is universal, hate, love, etc. Each individual has their own emotional fingerprint, some can't love, some can't hate, some people just aren't emotional at all. The only emotion that is close to being universal is fear.

TimeTraveler
09-11-06, 09:06 AM
One might be totally bored with oneself, thinking it would make a change to spend the time on somebody else.
That is what happened to me.

How many kids do you have?

--- Ron.


You are who you love, self is you and your family.

This is the problem with most westerners, most have a warped sense of ego. They actually think they are independent and seperate from their family. Love in the logical sense, is the opposite of hate, in that like Baron said, hate disintergrates and disconnects individuals into atoms, love connects atoms into cells and into living bodies, it's a group consciousness that a family shares, through love.

This is why mothers and fathers will kill to protect their babies and each other, this is why groups of men, and groups of friends will fight to protect each other. Sacrifice may be a symptom of love, but it's not what love is, love is extreme narcissism, and expansion of the ego. So when you love yourself, you are actually loving your family and all who are like you. When you love yourself you can easily love others just by finding yourself in others. When you can do this then you can love many others. If you don't love yourself then it hurts those who love you.

Satyr
09-11-06, 10:27 AM
What is Love?

LOVE is God – a Universal omnipotent force of goodness.
Love saves and comforts and redeems.
Love is selfless, and timeless.

Ahhhhh…love. :o

Love feels good.
Love is nice.

And for those that cynically claim that love is a chemical inebriation of reason which facilitates social interaction and procreation, I say:

“You, sir or madam, have no love in you and you know not what true love is. You, probably have lived a decrepit, sad, pathetic existence and you now cast your vengeful, cynical, retributions against all that reminds you of your misery and towards all us healthy, loved and loving ones.”

There, I said it.