Can someone tell me what Zionism is? Some kind of Religion?

Obey the laws of Zion!!

The idea that Israel, as described in the bible, is rightfully the land of the Jews.

I think it is more a political movement than a religion.

It is a movement for the re-establishment of the state of Israel. Zion is the promised land.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

the more common usage of the word is to describe a vast jewish conspiracy toward world domination.

That would be an incorrect usage of the term.

wrong or not, thats what it means in the minds of the common man.

No it isn't. That's called Anti-semitism.

Zi·on·ism
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

zionism
1: a policy for establishing and developing a national homeland for Jews in Palestine [syn: Zionism] 2: a movement of world Jewry that arose late in the 19th century with the aim of creating a Jewish state in Palestine

I challenge you to find one reference to Zionism implying anything like world domination in the the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

Thanks for the information. I think there are imposters active. :confused:

in recent years, the zionist movement has become the banner under which rabid advocates of Israeli expansionism have gathered. although nominally zionists are defined by a belief in the need for and support of a jewish homeland in israel, many of them are in fact, little more than racists who seek to expand israel to include all of what is left of palestine and continue on into other arab lands with some sort of "manifest destiny" type zeal.

you can deal with dictionary definitions all you like, but the truth is that the zionist political factions in israel are responsible for the destruction of palestinian homes and subsequent establishment of the illegal settlements in gaza and the west bank that were recently evacuated due to the fact that they were nothing more than a flagrant encroachment on other people's land.

I would hardly call some border disputes the same thing as world domination.

Within Zionism, there is the concept of the biblical Israel (as I said), the borders of which do not coincide with present political boundries. I challenge you to find an example of any Zionist who feels Zionism justifies expansion into any area other than the ancient Jewish lands.

I would hardly call some border disputes the same thing as world domination.

Within Zionism, there is the concept of the biblical Israel (as I said), the borders of which do not coincide with present political boundries. I challenge you to find an example of any Zionist who feels Zionism justifies expansion into any area other than the ancient Jewish lands.


who cares what ancient jewish lands were? thats no justification for bulldozing arab people's homes and building jewish ones on the land where they once stood. the biblical israel is as much a ficticious creation as the bible itself, and the zionists seize upon it as fact to justify their goal of colonizing arab land. when a person subscribes to the belief that a plot of land should be set aside and made sovereign so that one race or ethnic class of people can live in it together in a culture "untainted" by outside influence, i believe that is racism or at least racially based elitism. the muslim palistinians and the christains also have a "biblical" claim to some of the holy places located in israel, but there hasnt been a christian movement since the 13th century to expand into those biblical lands and take them back. the palestinian muslims are treated like trash on the side of the road by the israelis despite the fact that the land those jews are living in belongs rightfully to the palestinians and was taken from them at the whim of the Allied Powers after WWII due to manipulation of "holocaust guilt" by european jews. zionism is a newer, less powerful naziism.

Whatever dude. I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of Zionism, just it's definition.

Whatever dude. I'm not debating the rightness or wrongness of Zionism, just it's definition.


an essential part of its definition is the actions taken by its so-called adherents. the book definition of something means little when the thing itself is observably different.

Most of the actions you attribute to Zionism are in fact merely people charged with running and defending a modern nation that also happen to believe in the right of Israel to exist. Can you imagine someone in the Israeli government who doesn't believe in the right of their own nation to exist? In a very real sense, there is no Zionism anymore. Zion has already been established, albeit under controversial circumstances. The renewed popularity of the term Zionism is mostly due to it's use as a propaganda tool by the enemies of Israel, who feel that it's existence is still negotiable.

Can you tell me what Zionism is? Some kind of Religion?

regards,

loki

Zionism is just another word for "Nazi."
Take the facade off a Zionist and you will always find a Nazi.
Take the facade off a Nazi and you will always find a Zionist.

The only people who have been caught painting swastikas onto synagogues have all been Rabbis -

More bullshit propaganda.
The Arabs actually collaborated with the Nazis, and Islam has more in common with fascism than the largely liberal and secular population of Israel.

Most of the actions you attribute to Zionism are in fact merely people charged with running and defending a modern nation that also happen to believe in the right of Israel to exist. Can you imagine someone in the Israeli government who doesn't believe in the right of their own nation to exist? In a very real sense, there is no Zionism anymore. Zion has already been established, albeit under controversial circumstances. The renewed popularity of the term Zionism is mostly due to it's use as a propaganda tool by the enemies of Israel, who feel that it's existence is still negotiable.


do you think the facist government of Nazi Germany was not strikingly similar? the agents of nazi cruelty were merely people charged with running and defending a modenr nation that believed in its right to exist. nazi propagandists perpetuated a story that their country's existence was being threatened from within by certain subversive elements, mainly jews. do you see the danger in that type of justification? they are one and the same. israel may have a right to exist, but it came into existence under dubious circumstances and was created out of other people's possessions. one set of people were deprived and driven into denegration so another set could rise up and finally reclaim what was "theirs" (if you believe that it ever really was to begin with). israel's existence may be non-negotiable, but its size certainly isnt, and neither does it have the right to deprive palestinians of an equally ancient and rightful claim on "their" land.

No, I don't think they are similar, Israel has no ethnic cleansing or delusions of empire. Israel has Arab citizens, as well as Christians, and Christian Arabs. I think most Arabs who oppose Israel are carrying out an eye-for-an-eye vendetta, avenging their brothers and grandfathers. There is plenty of blame to go around on both sides. It was not evil to settle Jews in their ancestral homeland, where Jews already lived. It was not evil to want some autonomy. Both Jews and Arabs committed atrocities in Israel's war for independence. To think that only Arabs deserve to live there is as fanatical as thinking only Jews do. After all, the area in which Arabs live all around the middle east dwarfs the area inhabited by Jews many times over. I believe Israel and the Palestinians need to comprimise on borders and religious landmarks without comprimising security. Even people that used to be uncomprimising now realize this political reality.

Zionism is still a movement although it has far less Jewish support than it once did. It is still a movement because the modern state of isreal only controls a portion of the land of ancient Israel. The objective of Zionism is the re-establishment of a modern Israel covering the same territory as ancient Israel.

Of course once the present Israel was established most Jews accepted the current Israel as the achieved Zion, they are willing to trade land and give up the occupied territories. So for them the Zion movement is finished because it has achieved the desired result (a Jewish state.) But for a minority The objectives of Zionism will not be achieved until all the lands of ancient Israel are within the borders of Modern Israel.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

you know its funny to hear a bunch of people saying that there arent that many zionists out there when Ariel Sharon is in danger of losing most of his political support in the israeli government because he formed a moderate party that favors negotiating with the palestinian leaders. the israeli people elect their government and they have elected governments over and over again that represent zionist idealism by continuously and illegally expanding the jewish state even after the end of the 1967 conflict. even the United Nations came up with a resolution that declared the settlements illegal, but israel refused to comply by withdrawing until a few months ago. the israeli government forces many of its arab citizens and most palestinians coming over the border to go to work on a daily basis to undergo degrading searches and detainments. the israeli army shoots and kills young palestinian boys for being out after curfew or throwing rocks at soldiers. it is a sign of the degradation in which palestinians live that they resort to killing themselves in order to damage their occupiers. i agree that the average israeli may not be a rabid zionist, but they do support a government made up of many hardline zionists, and they turn a relatively blind eye to the destruction of the palestinian government, culture, and economy caused by their "security measures".

No it isn't. That's called Anti-semitism.

Zi·on·ism
A Jewish movement that arose in the late 19th century in response to growing anti-Semitism and sought to reestablish a Jewish homeland in Palestine. Modern Zionism is concerned with the support and development of the state of Israel.

zionism
1: a policy for establishing and developing a national homeland for Jews in Palestine [syn: Zionism] 2: a movement of world Jewry that arose late in the 19th century with the aim of creating a Jewish state in Palestine

I challenge you to find one reference to Zionism implying anything like world domination in the the Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

first off, using wikipedia as a reference for ANYTHING is retarded.
second, yes to the mind of common americans, when they hear the word "zionist", they think of jews trying to control everything.

i am jewish, and have been the subject of those words many times over in my life. dont tell me what i have experienced is made up. also, its not very "intelligent" to argue just for the sake of arguing.

i challenge you to poll 100 people in your hometown as to what they think zionism means. i think you will be surprised.

you know its funny to hear a bunch of people saying that there arent that many zionists out there when Ariel Sharon is in danger of losing most of his political support in the israeli government because he formed a moderate party that favors negotiating with the palestinian leaders. the israeli people elect their government and they have elected governments over and over again that represent zionist idealism by continuously and illegally expanding the jewish state even after the end of the 1967 conflict. even the United Nations came up with a resolution that declared the settlements illegal, but israel refused to comply by withdrawing until a few months ago. the israeli government forces many of its arab citizens and most palestinians coming over the border to go to work on a daily basis to undergo degrading searches and detainments. the israeli army shoots and kills young palestinian boys for being out after curfew or throwing rocks at soldiers. it is a sign of the degradation in which palestinians live that they resort to killing themselves in order to damage their occupiers. i agree that the average israeli may not be a rabid zionist, but they do support a government made up of many hardline zionists, and they turn a relatively blind eye to the destruction of the palestinian government, culture, and economy caused by their "security measures".

The fact remains that most Isrealies do not support the ultimate goal of Zionisim. The reason they vote for conservative parties is that they precieve that they are safer from terrorisim by voting for political leaders who are more hard line towards the people that they fear. Fear is a great way of getting people to vote in radical governments.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The fact remains that most Isrealies do not support the ultimate goal of Zionisim. The reason they vote for conservative parties is that they precieve that they are safer from terrorisim by voting for political leaders who are more hard line towards the people that they fear. Fear is a great way of getting people to vote in radical governments.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


i think that the point im getting across here is that whether a majority of jews in israel are zionists or not, as an ideological force, it has a relatively dominant role in forming their country's foreign policy. you cant downplay its influence by sayin oh well, the majority of israelis arent zionists so that makes it harmless. the conservative zionist elements in their government give power to the ideas whether the people agree with them 100% or not, and in addition to that, you dont see a lot of israeli jews out on the street protesting the awful things their government does. youd think if most of them werent zionists and thought there was something wrong with it, there would be some national debate on the issue, or maybe some people protesting something other than being kicked out of the homes they built on palestinian soil.

the reason this bothers me is because my country (the US) has, for some reason, a policy that requires unwavering support of israel and their expansionist, racist goals. if it were not for our foolish backing of israel, i doubt there would have been a 9/11 or a global war on terrorism. the truth is that the israelis deserve a lot of what they get from the palestinian "terrorists", because they have been engaged in a protracted war with them for the last 30 years. the only reason it isnt called a war is because the western powers seeking to legitimize the existence of israel after they created it wont give creedence to any claim that they stole land from other people. they allow israel to occupy palestine and degrade their people to some type of second class citizen status, and when those people rise up and attempt to take back some semblance of their autonomy, they call it terrorism instead of rebellion, insurgency, revolution, or any of the other words with positive or neutral connotations that could be used to describe the palestinian uprising. the truth of the whole situation is that if palestinians are terrorists, the the israelis are just terrorists with more money and a bigger army, and zionism is a root cause of the entire situation.

...to the mind of common americans, when they hear the word "zionist", they think of jews trying to control everything.
That's because they're retards, and probably only recall the "Protocol of the Elders of Zion" hoax.

perhaps.
or perhaps its because they dont have the luxury of sitting around reading all day like us.
:D
:m:

i think that the point im getting across here is that whether a majority of jews in israel are zionists or not, as an ideological force, it has a relatively dominant role in forming their country's foreign policy. you cant downplay its influence by sayin oh well, the majority of israelis arent zionists so that makes it harmless.

Well i have never said that the effects of Zionisim is not harmless. And of course the influence of Zionists far outweigh their actual numbers in proportion to the population. But it is always the way of the world that the people who are most passionate about their beliefs and causes lead those who are apathetic.



the conservative zionist elements in their government give power to the ideas whether the people agree with them 100% or not, and in addition to that, you dont see a lot of israeli jews out on the street protesting the awful things their government does.

Well they see the awful things that their radicalized islamic enemies do so they tend to see the actions of their own government as necessary while at the same time many are uneasy i their conscience about it.



youd think if most of them werent zionists and thought there was something wrong with it, there would be some national debate on the issue, or maybe some people protesting something other than being kicked out of the homes they built on palestinian soil.

Well there is a big protest movement in isreal for the peace process and the founding of a Palestinian state also there are a lot of Israelis who are refusing to do military service. So a protest movement does exist. But this movement is always undermined by the next bus bomb or the next speech by the Iranian president.



the reason this bothers me is because my country (the US) has, for some reason, a policy that requires unwavering support of israel and their expansionist, racist goals.

Well your government is controlled by a group of people who seek to pave the way for the coming of the anti-christ. They seek to support isreal (not because they love the Jews, because they hate the Jews) to bring about the re-building of the temple, A temple necessary for their deceivers goal. Isreal has been re-gathered to be fooled. Isreal in the end is not so much the refuge of the Jews but the final concentration camp. So there is a conspiracy but it is not for the benefit of the Jews but for their eventual extermination.




if it were not for our foolish backing of israel, i doubt there would have been a 9/11 or a global war on terrorism.

Maybe Isreal brought forward 9/11 in time. But it has always been the objective of Islam to bring the whole world under the control of islam through jihad, So 9/11 or something similar was inevitable, irrespective of what happens to isreal the drive for global conquest by true islamists comes from the korans call for them to fight until all the infidels acknowledge allah as God.



the truth is that the israelis deserve a lot of what they get from the palestinian "terrorists", because they have been engaged in a protracted war with them for the last 30 years. the only reason it isnt called a war is because the western powers seeking to legitimize the existence of israel after they created it wont give creedence to any claim that they stole land from other people. they allow israel to occupy palestine and degrade their people to some type of second class citizen status, and when those people rise up and attempt to take back some semblance of their autonomy, they call it terrorism instead of rebellion, insurgency, revolution, or any of the other words with positive or neutral connotations that could be used to describe the palestinian uprising. the truth of the whole situation is that if palestinians are terrorists, the the israelis are just terrorists with more money and a bigger army, and zionism is a root cause of the entire situation.

Well whatever one calls people in the end people are killing other people and people will continue to kill other people because hard-liners on both sides cannot accept any negotiated compromise. They’ll continue to fight and undermine any reconciliation until they have achieved their goal. For one side that is the establishment of Zion and for the other it is driving all Israelis back into the sea. A two-state solution is an abomination to both sides.

They will continue to fight and terrorism will grow world wide until the world under the command of the anti-christ destroys the islamic nations.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Well your government is controlled by a group of people who seek to pave the way for the coming of the anti-christ. They seek to support isreal (not because they love the Jews, because they hate the Jews) to bring about the re-building of the temple, A temple necessary for their deceivers goal. Isreal has been re-gathered to be fooled. Isreal in the end is not so much the refuge of the Jews but the final concentration camp. So there is a conspiracy but it is not for the benefit of the Jews but for their eventual extermination.
All Praise The Ancient Of Days

youre kidding right? is this a real response? youve been reading too many books from that "left behind" series.

I have never read the left behind series of books. And yes it is a serious response.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I have never read the left behind series of books. And yes it is a serious response.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days


oh, sorry i didnt take it seriously, its just that the ridiculous conspiracy you described is really similar to the story arc of a series of poorly written fantasy books that also try to pass themselves off as being semi-reality based.

everything is based on reality. reality can be divided into many parts.

everything is based on reality. reality can be divided into many parts.

right but some things are more reality based than others.

charles cure,

Religious books may seem to be fantasy but that doesn't mean it is so. Maybe it is due to your lack of understanding about such things as God. Surely, you would not say that ALL those who believe in God are delusional? It is only a matter of understanding what God is. Truly I tell you, God is the self within all things. Gain knowledge of yourself and you will understand God and religions.

Can you tell me what Zionism is? Some kind of Religion?

regards,

loki
It's the political idea that the jews should have thier own country. It certainly pissed off a lot of arabs.

charles cure,

Religious books may seem to be fantasy but that doesn't mean it is so. Maybe it is due to your lack of understanding about such things as God. Surely, you would not say that ALL those who believe in God are delusional? It is only a matter of understanding what God is. Truly I tell you, God is the self within all things. Gain knowledge of yourself and you will understand God and religions.

actually i would say that everyone who believes in god is deluded, if not delusional. the only way to "understand" what god is, is to believe in something that you cant see hear taste touch or smell and can be quantified in no other way. most of the time when adults believe in things like that (other than god) they are institutionalized or at least ridiculed. i just happen to see no difference between them and people who believe in god.

Maybe people that believe in God really do sense Him somehow. No way for you to know.

That would be an incorrect usage of the term.

Why?

More bullshit propaganda.
The Arabs actually collaborated with the Nazis, and Islam has more in common with fascism than the largely liberal and secular population of Israel.

George Bush's Grandfather, Prescott Bush, collaborated with the Nazi's.

What is your point?

No, I don't think they are similar, Israel has no ethnic cleansing or delusions of empire.

Untrue

The fact remains that most Isrealies do not support the ultimate goal of Zionisim. The reason they vote for conservative parties is that they precieve that they are safer from terrorisim by voting for political leaders who are more hard line towards the people that they fear. Fear is a great way of getting people to vote in radical governments.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

The fact remains that the majority of the people have nothing to do with the actions of a country. A small minority of people willing to murder for control of the country decides what the country does. It makes no difference what the people think or feel.

All Fart in Adstars General Direction

Maybe people that believe in God really do sense Him somehow. No way for you to know.


no, but by that same logic, theres no way for me to know anything. how can i be sure that i know what color Green is? what if everybody else sees it a bit differently and i dont really know what it is? what if some people can really read other people's thoughts or can communicate with horses? the whole point is that you can only trust your own perception and to a lesser extent, some things that can be commonly agreed upon through analysis, observation, and proof. so because i dont sense god in some way, and because nobody can show me in any way that i see as valid, how they are sensing god, then my conclusion stands as reasonable and acceptable for me.

actually i would say that everyone who believes in god is deluded, if not delusional.

Yet you don't even understand what God (the self) is.

the only way to "understand" what god is, is to believe in something that you cant see hear taste touch or smell and can be quantified in no other way. most of the time when adults believe in things like that (other than god) they are institutionalized or at least ridiculed. i just happen to see no difference between them and people who believe in god.

It is because of your ignorance of such things.
You don't understand mental things, you don't understand yourself.
You think that only the things "outside" your mind are real.

how can i be sure that i know what color Green is? what if everybody else sees it a bit differently and i dont really know what it is?
You can't. In fact that is a good example, since I am color blind and I really don't see the same colors that most people do.

The fact remains that the majority of the people have nothing to do with the actions of a country. A small minority of people willing to murder for control of the country decides what the country does. It makes no difference what the people think or feel.

bravo...if only i could convince all the europeans i meet of the same thing happening in america, eh?

you hit that shit right on the head.

The fact remains that the majority of the people have nothing to do with the actions of a country. A small minority of people willing to murder for control of the country decides what the country does. It makes no difference what the people think or feel.

All Fart in Adstars General Direction

Well not 100% correct. The powers that be know that it makes things easier if the population is apathetic. They also know that it is very desireable for their masses to be persuaded to desire the government carry out the actions that the controling small minority want done.

Like: let us take away your freedoms for a little while, and we will be able to keep you safe from terrorists. ;)


All Praise The Ancient Of Days