Perhaps one of the biggest indicators of the paucity of the Satan-myth is the rampant abuse it suffers at the hands of those who believe it. As several of our topics point out, at least one of our posters here frequently attributes the sentiments of his debate opponents to the devil. Rumors of possession, declarations of allegiance ... and now, in the Who is Christ? thread, I see another line from another poster: You say you don't believe in Satan but then teach his doctrines.

And this has a long history: Truestory, Lori, Tony1, Sir Loone, Lawdog, and KalvinB form the short list (that list that strikes me off the top of my head)--all of these people have resorted to the "Satan" dismissal.

And yet for the entire time I've been at this board, no Christian has appropriately defended, contextualized, or advocated the existence of the Devil in a manner which does not contradict fundamental claims about God. This is problematic in its rhetorical nature, but lends consideration toward the issue of the day:

* What, to a Christian is Satan? I only ask because as I go from one of you to the next, Satan seems to be a general term used to describe anything not liked and not understood.

* Do Christians realize what they're saying when they call people Satanic, influenced by, possessed by, ad nauseam? Seriously? Do you realize that you're invoking two millennia of rape, murder, theft, warfare, starvation, hatred, and general human illness as a convenient dismissal for issues that might just need to be discussed?

As I pointed out elsewhere, should we invoke the crimes of Christians past? If I compare Tony1's dominion-centered obsessions with victory and defeat to an Inquisitory lust, it's because it's obsessive, Inquisitory, and pushing toward ideological homogony in an unhealthy manner. If a poster justifies a controversial stance with the rhetoric of Torquemada, then so be it. But what is this Falwell-lockstep declaration of Satan?

Geez, is Taken a baby-raping murderer? Don't know, but it's happened in Christian history.

Is KalvinB the Grand Inquisitor? White-robed and grinning over the deaths of thousands? Doesn't seem to be, but he goes to heaven if he is.

Does Tony1 exanguinate geese for his magickal potions of Barret's Christian lore? I'm going to guess "No", but anything's possible.

Are there any goose-bleeding, baby-raping, witch-burning Christians here? With the exception of Lawdog, who hasn't posted here in a few months, I'd say there aren't.

So, to the Christians: What is Satan?

Now: What of Satan do you really see here?

In other words, can anyone justify the employment of a term for the worst things in creation? Or is Satan, like God, one of those handy things that is whatever you want it to be?

Let's put it this way: I'm vaguely Asian-American--I looked more Asian as a child. I've been called referred to as being from all manner of Asian countries, most of Central America, and Puerto Rico; I've been spoken to in taverns in three indigenous American dialects, a host of times in Spanish, and at least once in Romany. I've also been beaten as a Nigger.

Go figure.

It's a matter of how stupid people want to sound.

Does anyone remember the Simpsons episode, "Lisa's Date With Density"? There's a great line in there when Jimbo Jones points at Nelson Muntz and accuses, "You kissed a girl! That's so gay!"

So, what is Satan? If Satan is "not so bad", then why fight him except that you feel ordered to? If Satan really is all that, then why do you bandy about such severity with such disregard for either dignity or the appearence of intellect?

Now, we're going to try a disclaimer here, just to see what happens: You know, if you're not one of our Christian-advocate posters who attributes your argumentative opposition to Satan, the devil, demons, or otherwise, just sit back and enjoy the topic, because we're not talking about you.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

This should be quite interesting...assuming you actually get a straight answer. From the history of their means of defending their unfounded beliefs, I doubt you will.

Other.

Because Satan is only an image thought up to represent the evil in our world. Just like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, there is no truth in it, just a piece of fiction that got out of hand. IMO anyway...

Originally posted by Xelios
Other.

Because Satan is only an image thought up to represent the evil in our world. Just like Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy, there is no truth in it, just a piece of fiction that got out of hand. IMO anyway...

He is, unfortunately, very real!! And is called the father of all lies! A fallen angel that wanted to be like God and to sit on His throne, but was cast out of Heaven and is now known as the Devil!

Will be cast into the Lake of Fire 1007 years from now and will deceive us no more! Praise GOD! :D He is DOOMED!

"The Devil is a 'liar' and the truth is not in him!" "For he is the father of lies!"

And he is not an "myth", but a real and dangerous evil being that has already fooled many here to not believe he exist, nor the God that created us all! He is the 'Dragon', that old serpent the Devil! His poison is obviously noticiable on this forum!:eek:
:eek:

It is just as likely that the myth of religion has fooled you, rather than the other way around. IMO, the devil was thought up to constitute all the "bad thoughts" we as human being get from time to time (everyone but tony1 of course, he is immune from all things not holy). Eventually it just got out of hand and everyone started to blindly believe it.

Who knows, the Ten Commandments could have been an older version of the Napoleonic Code that was fit into the theme of religion to enforce it...

Something else I wanted to mention. You say "His poisen is obviously noticeable on this forum", I'd like to ask you where? All I see is people having peaceful and constructive discussions about religion. I can tell you right now, if everyone believed fully in God and religion, we'd still think the Earth is flat, simply because religion doesn't allow questioning. To believe fully in a religion you must not ask any questions of the religion or the universe itself, just believe that's the way God intended it so it's not our place to question. IMO anyway.

According to a lot of Arabs America is THE GREAT SATAN!

I think when we look at the specific segments of the Islamic world which hold America to be the Great Satan, we see the dangers of such theology. Fundamentalist Islam doesn't seem to have much of a point except to hurt as many people as it encounters. I would hope this notion to be a striking testament to the value of Satan-myths in a culture.

It's true that such acts as we see from bin Laden and others have no justification in the Koran; it's the political currency of the Satan-myth. When you take on America, it is no longer people they are killing, but demons and djinn and other minions of myth. It changes the Judgemental value in the rhetorical opinion: the rationalization is that "I am not killing human beings, I am killing a bunch of devils."

Thank you, Odin, for reminding us of this aspect of the Satan myth. Rather, it's the first thing to mind this morning and I can't believe I forgot to undertake the point originally.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

This should be quite interesting...assuming you actually get a straight answer. From the history of their means of defending their unfounded beliefs, I doubt you will.Apparently, it's more convoluted than I would have imagined.

http://www.sciforums.com/t4995/s7fbf62fff3ea6dd75baddf0d7f8ab657/thread.html

In the meantime, if you get bored with your other topics, I'd invite you to throw your two or five or however many cents into it because I have a sneaking suspicion that you understand to a degree (I don't want to assume you're right there with my every sentiment) how ... bizarre this abuse of Satan has been.

I mean, think of all the things we cannot say on this forum; there's a reason for it. Cussing's allowed until someone complains, and that's fine. Threats are always an akward moment here, but they come about so rarely ... as a matter of fact, aside from one declaration that "we" (e.g. the Church) "will crush" the entire pagan subculture, there are no threats. And that really wasn't as much of a threat as I made it out to be, but I'm not about to stand by while someone advocates cultural extinction in the name of God.

It's weird to see a person call another person a colloquial name that amounts to calling them everything evil and wrong in the Universe. That's why I wonder what people think of Satan. Maybe people don't find Satan that bad anymore, so the insult isn't so severe because it now means something less than absolute and fundamental evil and wrongness.

I have to admit that, while I agreed with your assessment, noted above, I absolutely did not anticipate the response I got.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Having just noted the Christian response, let me also note yours, and thank you for your comments. Could you clarify two points, then?

* Could you elaborate on what you mean about his poison?
* It seems your characterization of the Devil isn't as awful as others in history. You say, he is "called" something; but many people are called many things. Could you be more specific about what's wrong with being called a name?

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

When I was the first to view the thread I didn't respond with my own thinking because I really wanted to see what Kalvin, Tony and others said. I knew if I posted my thinking then they would simply defy me instead of getting to the point at hand. I didn't want to give them an out for direct answering but I see Kalvin made his own in the form of another post. I think that when Eve was questioned by the serpant in the "apple" story :O), we saw a human reasoning between what was best and what THEY WANTED for themselves. Something that defines each of our struggle in this life to do good while quenching our desire to look out for #1 with no regard for the effect our choice has on others. Selfish need versus passion...a fight we all undertake for the duration of our life here. Do we do what we will to do, or what we will not to do?

Our spirit is a reflection of God, our very being...God is good, He is Love, He is life...and so is the spirit of man. Our physical being aside from that is a bundle of desires and needs for which we must struggle to fullfill or abstain. We fight to do so with out vexing our spirit, going against our conscience.

When the Bible speaks of quenching the spirit.... we all know that if we disregard our conscience long enough, our heart seems to harden and what once bothered us gets easier and easier to do with out regard for it's harm.

As for possesion and the like, I do believe there are those controlled solely by evil for variouse reasons. Those who seem void of conscience or any will to care for life. Can a spirit just take over your body and mind??NO! Even the Bible says resist the devil and he shall flee. As long as we have a desire for good, no matter how weak our flesh may seem or how many times we fail and have to try again, we are in fact resisting the fate of haveing no heart. We are makeing a conscience and heartfelt decision to WANT to be able to do good in this life. What brings someone to the point of no longer careing at all, or delighting in evil so much is beyond me? Serial killers, rapists, Hitler, child molesters...have you ever thought "how the hell can anyone do such a thing with no remorse, how do they live with haveing done such morbid things? They are in fact void of spirit, void of passion, possesed and no longer under any authority or controll by means of good, love, or life. They are in fact walking dead. The rest of us who fail but never cease to feel hurt in our hearts for our short comeings and continue to try to hone our ability to love and give...we tiassa, are simply human. Many Christians seem to have mistaken being human for being of the devil. It is simply another tactic by which to invalidate anyone who doesn't jump on there particular band-wagon and thus not have to account for their own lacking.

The Bible says we are born in to sin as we are born of a woman. We are born, our physical body is produced and it is our physical body that embodies those desires and wants that we struggle to keep under some form of controll. So in that sense we are all sinners, but our spirit is of LIFE, and that is God. We are not children of the devil, i.e. Satan, we are NOT under that authority or controll, evil does not have it's way with us beyond our controll. Christians like to pump him up to beyond supernatural powers and make him our complete authority as though we are helpless against him. He (IT) recieves far too much credit in the church. He recieves as much if not more homage there than Life does. The devil does not rule the world or man..... man rules both. We have allowed many times in history for our wants to get the one up on our hearts and we always suffer the punishment our own actions created when we do. Hope is that we will learn from that and struggle all the harder to do better with each passing generation and not quench our spirits too long.

It would be inappropriate of me to comment at this time; I want to read this one a few more times to make sure I'm getting it.

In the meantime; thank you very much for the detail. It is both helpful to my understanding and appreciated by my conscience.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Fooled By Satan?

Christians accept god on the basis of faith. They have elevated a faith based upon spiritual concepts, rather than upon reason and observation, as the gold standard of religious virtue. Christians often refer to, "Their leap of faith".

But here is a problem.

If you elevate faith above rationality, how do you know you are worshipping the true god? Indeed Satan, that mischievous fellow, could merely be posing as the true god. I believe I remember from the bible that Satan has tried such tricks in the past. Satan surely has the power to part the oceans. I'd find such a feat more convincing than that of one who merely walked upon water.

Christians believe that Satan speaks to us mortals. If one day the clouds parted and a booming voice addressed me, I'd be on my knees before you could say "Beelzebub". Having never had as much as a "Howdy do" from the true god himself, I'd naturally assume that such a supernatural power was god. How could I know that it was only Satan fooling me? How could Christians be certain that they've not already been worshipping an evil imposter for some 2000 years?

This might explain god's reluctance to speak to us more directly. Perhaps he's afraid that if he took on a visible and daily role in our lives he might give away the scam? Christians might object that Satan would speak evil whereas god would speak benevolently. But god (if it is the true god) is perpetually killing classrooms of schoolchildren in earthquakes and such. Wouldn't such common but horrific behavior more logically originate from a devil rather than a god? Of course I'm allowed to use logic in my investigations, whereas Christians must accept god on faith alone.

Secondly, A.F.C. Wallace in his 1966 book titled, Religion, An Anthropological View, estimates that roughly 100,000 distinct religions have been practiced in the course of human history. Just look at the many diverse religions practiced around the world today. Curiously, the specific religion practiced appears to be based more upon geography rather than upon conscious decision. For example, the Saudis are primarily Muslim, the Irish are Catholic, while a good many Indians are Hindu. If you had been born in Yemen rather than in Ohio, what are the chances that you would be a practicing Christian? Every religion seems to speak of the "true" god, yet what possible assurance does a Christian have that he is not following the wrong deity, or even worse…Satan?

Michael

I really liked your line of reasoning about the possibility that Christians are, in fact, following a deity which represents himself as God but is actually Satan.

For me, I can look at the Christian God and see mass amounts of subterfuge, back-alley dealings, contradictory sayings, and gross over-representation and attribute those qualities to a being that is, in reality, a glory-seeking, self-aggrandizing, green-eyed detriment to all of humanity. He is literally a stumbling-block to Christianity--hell, to everyone. But specifically to Christianity, because they deign to worship the foul creature.

Satan, if he be different than the Christian God, cannot be any more evil or diabolical. God has shown, through his misdirections and evil machinations, that he is meant to rule over all, to subdue any enemy, to smite those that choose to question. I don't know about you, but that sounds an awful lot like the Biblical Satan was purported to be.

The thing with Satan is that, in the beginning, he was tempting Adam and [st]Eve with an apple so that they would become as God, knowing good from evil. Apparently, seeking all glory for himself, God did not want this to happen. So, on the one hand, you have a powerful being [satan] providing an opportunity for instruction and further knowledge to lesser beings and, on the other, you have a powerful being [god] that places the means for advancement within reach of the lesser beings and then proceeds to forbid them to do anything to attain it!

Is it any wonder that Satan has gotten such a bad rap?

If there is a God and there is a Satan, then I will follow the immortal words of Joshua, albeit interpreted differently: As for me and my house, we will follow Satan!

thanks!

prag

*Originally posted by tiassa
Perhaps one of the biggest indicators of the paucity of the Satan-myth is the rampant abuse it suffers at the hands of those who believe it.*

Why would you be making such a big deal about it, if it weren't true?

*And yet for the entire time I've been at this board, no Christian has appropriately defended, contextualized, or advocated the existence of the Devil in a manner which does not contradict fundamental claims about God.*

As you see it, anyway.

*Do Christians realize what they're saying when they call people Satanic, influenced by, possessed by, ad nauseam?[/b] Seriously?*

Yes.

*Do you realize that you're invoking two millennia of rape, murder, theft, warfare, starvation, hatred, and general human illness as a convenient dismissal for issues that might just need to be discussed?*

Why would a person "realize" something that isn't there to realize?

*Geez, is Taken a baby-raping murderer? Don't know, but it's happened in Christian history.*

I don't know.
In the meantime, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

*Is KalvinB the Grand Inquisitor? White-robed and grinning over the deaths of thousands? Doesn't seem to be, but he goes to heaven if he is.*

No. No. Get some angel dust and PCP mixed in with your hash?

*Does Tony1 exanguinate geese for his magickal potions of Barret's Christian lore? I'm going to guess "No", but anything's possible.*

Guessed right for once.
"exsanguinate" is how it is spelled, by the way.

*What is Satan?

"Who" is satan?
The devil, the adversary, the waster, the destroyer (To Jan Ardena, that would be your God).

*What of Satan do you really see here?*

Posts containing statements from demons.

*In other words, can anyone justify the employment of a term for the worst things in creation?*

Sure.
It's only because you are too used to seeing things being really bad that you think that your life is good.
Based on that, you assume that the evil that satan brings would have to be much worse.
It doesn't.
The only way your life can get much worse, is to lose it altogether.

*Or is Satan, like God, one of those handy things that is whatever you want it to be?*

No, he's there ready to screw things up for you all the time.

*It's a matter of how stupid people want to sound.*

Well, you've got the market cornered on that.

*If Satan really is all that, then why do you bandy about such severity with such disregard for either dignity or the appearence of intellect?*

Why do you?

*You know, if you're not one of our Christian-advocate posters who attributes your argumentative opposition to Satan, the devil, demons, or otherwise, just sit back and enjoy the topic, because we're not talking about you.*

You must not be talking about anyone, then.
I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I attribute it to you.
All satan can do is wreck your life, kill you and spit you out like a cherry pit.
You do the thinking yourself, as so many atheists, freethinkers and pagans claim.

*Originally posted by Taken
From the history of their means of defending their unfounded beliefs, I doubt you will.*

Your antichristianity is showing, Taken.
Only antichristians refer to Christians as "them."

*Originally posted by Xelios
It is just as likely that the myth of religion has fooled you, rather than the other way around.*

More likely, in fact, since there are so many religions around, such as Islam, Zoroastrianism, science, etc.

*Originally posted by tiassa
It's true that such acts as we see from bin Laden and others have no justification in the Koran*

No, it isn't.
They are obeying commands from the Koran.

*I have a sneaking suspicion that you understand to a degree how ... bizarre this abuse of Satan has been.*

tiassa having a sappy moment, shedding a tear for the abuse of satan?

*one declaration that "we" (e.g. the Church) "will crush" the entire pagan subculture, there are no threats.*

Pure fiction.
The church isn't going to have time to "crush" the pagan subculture before it goes up in a puff of smoke in the lake of fire.

*It's weird to see a person call another person a colloquial name that amounts to calling them everything evil and wrong in the Universe. That's why I wonder what people think of Satan.*

He is the Adversary.

*Originally posted by Taken
Many Christians seem to have mistaken being human for being of the devil.*

OTOH, there are those who seem to have mistaken satan's handiwork for being human.
You know, things such as suicide, mental illness, even forgetfulness, confusion, migraines, etc, etc.

*We are not children of the devil, i.e. Satan, we are NOT under that authority or controll, evil does not have it's way with us beyond our controll.*

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
(John 8:44, KJV).

Looks like somebody was a child of the devil.
Contradicting the Bible again, huh?

*He (IT) recieves far too much credit in the church.*

What church even mentions satan?

*Originally posted by orthogonal
If you elevate faith above rationality, how do you know you are worshipping the true god?*

Easy, no one is elevating faith above rationality.
That absence of rationality is an antichristian mythology.

*Indeed Satan, that mischievous fellow, could merely be posing as the true god.*

Well, duh.
Who else would he be posing as, the janitor?

*How could Christians be certain that they've not already been worshipping an evil imposter for some 2000 years?*

Because we're not.
For an example of a religion that has been worshipping a false god for almost 2000 years, look at Roman Catholicism.

*But god (if it is the true god) is perpetually killing classrooms of schoolchildren in earthquakes and such. Wouldn't such common but horrific behavior more logically originate from a devil rather than a god?*

It would and God isn't doing it.
Satan is, being the god of this world.

*Every religion seems to speak of the "true" god, yet what possible assurance does a Christian have that he is not following the wrong deity, or even worse…Satan?*

All that stuff is explained in the Bible.
Other religions don't spend any time dealing with the issue of deception, following the example of con men the world around.

*Originally posted by pragmathen
I can look at the Christian God and see mass amounts of subterfuge, back-alley dealings, contradictory sayings, and gross over-representation and attribute those qualities to a being that is, in reality, a glory-seeking, self-aggrandizing, green-eyed detriment to all of humanity.*

Having a bad day?

*As for me and my house, we will follow Satan!*

Have you ever thought of checking out where he is going?
It's all well and good to make such bold, yet stupid, statements, but shouldn't the end result be of some concern?

More likely, in fact, since there are so many religions around, such as Islam, Zoroastrianism, science, etc.
Wow, since when is science a religion? But you have brought up an excellent point, with so many religions how do you know yours is the 'right' one?

Did we not JUST debate the term "Christian" and it's meanings?

I won't even go there again!


Ok Tony, lets give them the WHOLE Bible not your Bible full of holes.

John 8:39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father." Jesus *said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
John 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.
John 8:41 "You are doing the deeds of your father." They said to Him, "We were not born of fornication; we have one Father: God."
John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me.
John 8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
John 8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me.
John 8:46 "Which one of you convicts Me of sin? If I speak truth, why do you not believe Me?
John 8:47 "He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."


Now does anyone here conclude from that reading that Jesus was saying that mankind is the creation or seed of the devil? Or was He speaking to the so called "church" leaders and know everything self righteouse who sought to kill Him?

Pretty easy to throw just one verse out there to try to contradict me Tony, but for what? Just to be doing so? What benefit is that in the spreading of the gospel? None!

*Originally posted by Xelios
Wow, since when is science a religion? *

---religion \Re*li"gion\ (r[-e]*lj"n), n. [F., from L. religio; cf. religens pious, revering the gods, Gr. 'ale`gein to heed, have a care. Cf. Neglect.]
1. The outward act or form by which men indicate their recognition of the existence of a god or of gods having power over their destiny, to whom [u]obedience, service, and honor are due; the feeling or expression of human love, fear, or awe of some superhuman and overruling power, whether by profession of belief, by observance of rites and ceremonies, or by the conduct of life; a system of faith and worship; a manifestation of piety;---

Many scientific types confuse "god" with "idol" as in some kind of carved piece of wood, so the general tendency is to pooh-pooh religion as being inapplicable to their life.
However, when you get scientific types such as Cainxinth, referring to science textbooks as holy books, one can see that science is in fact a religion.

Similarly, scientific types also see "worship" as some kind of kneeling or bowing to a carved stick, however, few Christians worship God with the reverence accorded to "Science" by scientific types.

*[i]But you have brought up an excellent point, with so many religions how do you know yours is the 'right' one?*

Just one point among many, Christianity identifies deception as a major factor in belief.
No other religion, including science, does.

*Originally posted by Taken
Now does anyone here conclude from that reading that Jesus was saying that mankind is the creation or seed of the devil?*

They shouldn't, since he was saying they were the children of the devil.

They who Tony? They as in everyone here or as in they whom He was speaking to when He said it?
Come on let me see ya twist Jesus' words.

I just want to point out that EVERY time Jesus took a hard line in the Bible He was in fact adressing the religouse leaders, the church goers, those who in fact felt they were beyond any need of teaching or chastisement for they felt they had it all figured out. His message to the sinners, the tax collecttors, the poor, the sick, the low in spirit...and later Pauls message to the gentiles and pagans was ALWAYS tempered by and conformed to this sentiment:

Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.

Matt 9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."

Show me your compassion Tony, it is not evident in your words to people.

*Originally posted by Taken
They who Tony? They as in everyone here or as in they whom He was speaking to when He said it?*

They, as in "anyone."

Quoting from you, "Now does anyone here conclude from that reading that Jesus was saying that mankind is the creation or seed of the devil?"

*Matt 9:12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.*

Who decides?
A person who thinks he is sick, goes to a physician.
A person who doesn't think he is sick, doesn't.

*Show me your compassion Tony, it is not evident in your words to people.*

You mean compassion, as in preaching a "gospel" about being a poverty-stricken snakebite victim with the flu?
That's what you started in with when you started posting here.

I'm not surprised you wouldn't recognize compassion if you saw it, since I preach GOOD news, like not being broke to people who are broke, like not being sick or injured to people who get sick or injured, etc.

I still don't understand how you get religion and science to be one and the same.

sci·ence (sns)
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

re·li·gion (r-ljn)
n.

Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.

They are almost exactly opposite. One is based on beliefs, the other on facts. One acts on faith, the other on observations. Science tries to explain how the universe was created and how it works. Religion tries to explain why the universe is here, and why it was created. Black is not white, just as science is not religion.

They did not go to the Doctor, the Doctor came to seek them out, for so great was His love.


1 Matt 5:3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
2 Matt 5:4 "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
3 Matt 5:5 "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth.
4 Matt 5:6 "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
5 Matt 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.
6 Matt 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
7 Matt 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.


Matt 9:36 Seeing the people, He felt compassion for them, because they were distressed and dispirited like sheep without a shepherd.

Matt 11:28 "Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest
Matt 11:29 "Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS.

Nope, still doesn't sound quite the same as the message or the attitude with which you attempt to Help??? people.

*Originally posted by Xelios
I still don't understand how you get religion and science to be one and the same.*

They aren't the same.
Science is just one example of a religion, not religion in general.

*They are almost exactly opposite.*

They were almost exactly opposite.
When science started into stuff like phlogiston and evolution, it became a religion.

*One is based on beliefs, the other on facts. One acts on faith, the other on observations.*

Really?
What fact, other than pure stupidity, accounts for phlogiston?
What observations account for evolution?

*Science tries to explain how the universe was created and how it works.*

Tries, and fails.

*Religion tries to explain why the universe is here, and why it was created.*

If that is true, then why was the universe created?

*Black is not white, just as science is not religion.*

Bad analogy, since black is not an example of white.
If you think that evolution is based on reason, then you have no clue as to what reason is.
It is faith, pure and simple.
And blind faith, the blindest, to boot.

*Originally posted by Taken
Nope, still doesn't sound quite the same as the message or the attitude with which you attempt to Help??? people.*

I know you don't know about compassion, since if I were as pathetic as you say, you wouldn't be attacking me so persistently.
You would be "helping?" me.
Ooops, it's tougher than you thought.

James 3:1 Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

Heb 5:12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

Rom 11:30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience,
Rom 11:31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy.

If you are made righteouse by the law does the Bible not say you will be judged by that law? Can you with stand that test. Did Jesus not free us from the law by grace? Is it not mercy that is required?

... but have you anything to offer on the subject at hand? For instance, tiassa having a sappy moment, shedding a tear for the abuse of satan?One of the things you don't realize is the meaning of the word abuse. Specifically, the abuse Satan receives at the hands of Sciforums Christian posters and other Christians throughout the US, at least, is detrimental to Chrisitan progress. By rendering the idea of Satan to a catch-all insult and condemnation of others, you create so many degrees of what Satan is that, much like the word fuck, the word Satan becomes utterly meaningless. Repeatedly used as a baseless insult derived from exclusionary theology, the word takes on connotations of racist terminology at best. In other words, continuing to attribute those you disagree with to Satan weakens the perception of what Satan is, and diminishes the spectre of evil the concept conveys in favor of a more carnival interpretation.

So yes, thank you for the spelling advice; I shall bear in mind that it is what you find significant in posts, since your only topic-relevant contribution seems to be that you accidentally reinforced my platform.

Here's a nearly-relevant couple of issues you can clear up, if you're so inclined:*What of Satan do you really see here?*

Posts containing statements from demons.Right, except for, *You know, if you're not one of our Christian-advocate posters who attributes your argumentative opposition to Satan, the devil, demons, or otherwise, just sit back and enjoy the topic, because we're not talking about you.*

You must not be talking about anyone, then.
I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I attribute it to you.
All satan can do is wreck your life, kill you and spit you out like a cherry pit.
You do the thinking yourself, as so many atheists, freethinkers and pagans claimSo, what you see of Satan is posts from demons. Of Satan, from demons. Do I have that correct? Yet you don't attribute the argumentative opposition to Satan? Does that mean the posters are demons? Or is the "you" there to be taken that you place the responsibility of all those who disagree with you at Sciforums (and, presumably, in the world) onto me, specifically? You can't say that the demons possess the posters, because you attribute it to that yet-vague you.

So why don't you clear up those couple of issues, and then you'll be within a hair's breadth of relevance:

* Reassert the you referred to when you don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan. While I try not to imagine myself so important as to be responsible for all the evil in the world, such an assertion in your posts would hardly surprise me.

* And if that you is a more generalized you (e.g. not specific to Tiassa), be so kind as to explain how the posts are by demons if your evidence of Satan is posts from demons though you attribute the posts to people? Are you calling the people demons? Personally, I think you're just full of your usual, but I'm wondering if you can actually extract yourself from the waste-hole you've buried yourself in.

And when you're done with those, perhaps you can conclusively demonstrate that these posts are, indeed, of the Devil, and do so without accidentally including your own posting history among those that meet the criteria.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

In Response To Tony1;

I wrote,
How could Christians be certain that they've not already been worshipping an evil imposter for some 2000 years?

You wrote,
Because we're not.

I'm writing,
Well, that settles the question.

I wrote,
But if god (if it is the true god) is perpetually killing classrooms of schoolchildren in earthquakes and such. Wouldn't such common but horrific behavior more logically originate from a devil rather than a god?

You wrote,
It would and God isn't doing it. Satan is, being the god of this world.

I'm writing,
If God made everything, then he made Satan as well. If Satan is evil, then God produced this evil. What's more, if the "all powerful" god sits on his backside while Satan sinks ferryboats filled with children, then God carries the full moral culpability. But if God doesn't have the power to control Satan then you need a new god. It shouldn't be difficult, just dream up one with bigger biceps.

Satan is the god of this world? What, is God too busy having dominion over his other worlds (what other worlds?) to give this world a bit of his attention? Did he by chance, create more worlds than he could manage? :)

Mike

*Originally posted by Taken
If you are made righteouse by the law does the Bible not say you will be judged by that law? Can you with stand that test.*

Sure can.
Since I wasn't made righteous by the law, I won't be judged by the law.

*Did Jesus not free us from the law by grace? Is it not mercy that is required? *

Yes.

*Originally posted by tiassa
In other words, continuing to attribute those you disagree with to Satan weakens the perception of what Satan is, and diminishes the spectre of evil the concept conveys in favor of a more carnival interpretation.*

Unless there is a common detail which connects the various "uses" of the name.

*Of Satan, from demons. Do I have that correct?*

Yes.

*Yet you don't attribute the argumentative opposition to Satan? Does that mean the posters are demons?*

No.
The posters that channel messages from demons aren't themselves demons, they are merely channeling demons.

*While I try not to imagine myself so important as to be responsible for all the evil in the world, such an assertion in your posts would hardly surprise me.*

LOL!
tiassa "responsible for all the evil in the world?"
I don't think so, although a little puff of pride must have coursed through your chest for just a moment just thinking about it.

*be so kind as to explain how the posts are by demons if your evidence of Satan is posts from demons though you attribute the posts to people?*

Easy.
It's rarely the entire post that is a channeled message.
Usually, the demonic rant is merely a line or two in the post.

*perhaps you can conclusively demonstrate that these posts are, indeed, of the Devil, and do so without accidentally including your own posting history among those that meet the criteria. *

Piece of cake.
The more demonic posts are usually quite heavily anti-Christian.
Demons rarely post anti-Buddhist and anti-Muslim stuff.

*Originally posted by orthogonal
You wrote,
Because we're not.

I'm writing,
Well, that settles the question. *

Granted, that probably doesn't meet your standards of objective proof.
However, that is actually how it is.
You see, vagueness, uncertainty, not knowing, wondering and such things fall under the purview of atheism.
Christians don't spend a lot of time delving into vagueness, since that is the surest way to create a puzzled atheist.

*If God made everything, then he made Satan as well. If Satan is evil, then God produced this evil. What's more, if the "all powerful" god sits on his backside while Satan sinks ferryboats filled with children, then God carries the full moral culpability. But if God doesn't have the power to control Satan then you need a new god. It shouldn't be difficult, just dream up one with bigger biceps.

Satan is the god of this world? What, is God too busy having dominion over his other worlds (what other worlds?) to give this world a bit of his attention? Did he by chance, create more worlds than he could manage?*

That's the old "if God really was omnipotent, then there wouldn't be any evil" argument.

Well...

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
(Isaiah 45:7, KJV).

God did create evil.

He also created choice.

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
(Deuteronomy 30:15, KJV).

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
(Deuteronomy 30:19, KJV).

If you want to get rid of evil, then choose good and convince as many people as you can to do the same.
In the meantime, you'll have to put up with the evil you choose and that which others have chosen.

God has delegated that to you.
Choose wisely.

Then you would be well to stop preaching that the "acts" of these people are their downfall and instead teach love and mercy above all.
All this sin and demonic possesion has lost it's edge. Besides if one truely is demonicaly possesed it renders one innocent, since they are no longer in controll of their own actions...by what law will they be held accountable?

*Originally posted by Taken
Then you would be well to stop preaching that the "acts" of these people are their downfall and instead teach love and mercy above all.*

Why would I do that?
Their acts ARE their downfall, and God will mercifully forgive their acts.

*All this sin and demonic possesion has lost it's edge. Besides if one truely is demonicaly possesed it renders one innocent, since they are no longer in controll of their own actions...by what law will they be held accountable? *

I see you've lost control of your actions.
Are you aware that a demon just typed that using your fingers?

By this law...
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
(James 4:7, KJV).

Failing to resist the devil means that the devils won't leave.
Of course, submitting to God is key, otherwise, you're just a snack for the devil.

BTW, Taken, do you just grind up Bibles in a blender to come up with your doctrine?

Tony1

You appear to be in error on a vital point: you wrote, The posters that channel messages from demons aren't themselves demons, they are merely channeling demons. (12/29)

And you wrote, I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I attribute it to you. (12/22)

In that statement from 12/22, I may have made an error in reading sympathetically. When you wrote I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I assumed that you simply forgot to change that from your to my, which, in your own post, would have referred to the argumentative opposition to your own posts. If you actually did mean to remind that you do not attribute my (Tiassa's) opposition to Satan, what could possibly have been the point, since it wasn't a point of discussion? I choose to attribute a typographical glitch instead of intentional sidestepping of the topic. If I'm in error here, let me know, because it's what's wrong with your 12/29 post.

Now, we've come to a sense of agreement, I see, that when you wrote you on 12/22, the object of that you was broader than the individual (e.g. Tiassa). In either case, when you assert that the topic post is "not talking about anyone", you're quite incorrect. It's talking about any Christian poster who does, in their posts, attribute their argumentative opposition to the Devil, demons, &c.

And that includes, Tony1, you. So please consider the possibility of addressing one of two points, please:

* So do you attribute the posts to the poster or the demon?
* Or if that's not at issue because I adjusted your 12/22 statement inappropriately as described, why did you bother with that irrelevant point?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

*Originally posted by tiassa
You appear to be in error on a vital point: you wrote, The posters that channel messages from demons aren't themselves demons, they are merely channeling demons. (12/29)

And you wrote, I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I attribute it to you. (12/22)

In that statement from 12/22, I may have made an error in reading sympathetically. When you wrote I don't attribute your argumentative opposition to Satan, I assumed that you simply forgot to change that from your to my, which, in your own post, would have referred to the argumentative opposition to your own posts. If you actually did mean to remind that you do not attribute my (Tiassa's) opposition to Satan, what could possibly have been the point, since it wasn't a point of discussion? I choose to attribute a typographical glitch instead of intentional sidestepping of the topic. If I'm in error here, let me know, because it's what's wrong with your 12/29 post.*

Next time you feel that you have to initiate a construction project akin to building the Great Pyramids of Egypt, you should review whether you have a point first.

It looks like you've missed the point as usual.
Channeling demons is channeling demons.
Arguing is arguing.
While demons can channel "arguments," they are more usually rants.
Thus, when you oppose Christianity, it's attributable to you.
If, while you are opposing Christianity, you channel a demon's rant, you are channeling a demon's rant.

*Now, we've come to a sense of agreement, I see, that when you wrote you on 12/22, the object of that you was broader than the individual (e.g. Tiassa). In either case, when you assert that the topic post is "not talking about anyone", you're quite incorrect. It's talking about any Christian poster who does, in their posts, attribute their argumentative opposition to the Devil, demons, &c.*

I see that you, as in you, should consider multiple meanings to a single statement, especially when they are your, as in your, own.
It depends on your, as in your, definition of "attribute."

It appears that you wrote the word with one meaning in mind, and now that you are stoned, or more so, you see the other meaning.
So, I "attribute" the post to the poster, the argumentative opposition to the poster, and I attribute channeled messages to the various demons that variously control the various posters.

Of course, the poster may be posting under complete control of a demon.
However, that usually doesn't happen unless the poster, or an ancestor, is in agreement with the demon in the first place.

However, I can see the value in fine-tuning such an issue.
There shouldn't be any vagueness extant with a subject matter such as this.

BTW, how is/was your Saturnalia holiday?

So, I "attribute" the post to the poster, the argumentative opposition to the poster, and I attribute channeled messages to the various demons that variously control the various posters.

Of course, the poster may be posting under complete control of a demon.
However, that usually doesn't happen unless the poster, or an ancestor, is in agreement with the demon in the first place.

However, I can see the value in fine-tuning such an issue.
There shouldn't be any vagueness extant with a subject matter such as this. So who, ultimately, is responsible for the argumentative opposition? If it takes the power of a demon to compel the person to hold such sentiments ...? There shouldn't be any vagueness, I agree, but oh! how you work toward it. If it takes unholy suggestion to put the sentiments into one's mind? This is the will of God, then, for what happens without His authority? When you attribute the will of God to the work of the devil, are you not blaspheming the holy spirit?

You'll notice Satan had to get the Lord's permission before he could torment Job.

Do you realize that if ever any demon anywhere actually comes into existence and does the things you say, that it is the will of God that it should be so? There is no way around this argument, since it's Biblical (Matthew 3.38-30 ... what's funny is that the commentaries around the web seem to reflect my own presupposition of this; and it's something I've pointed out to you several times ... you keep calling the will of God the work of demons).

Haven't been to a Saturnalia party ... most people I know just call it Yule, or Solstice Party, or Heavy Drinking at an Irish Pub in the Hippie District. Since I have no real clear memories of that night ... and since I don't seem to be dead or in jail ... I'd say it was pretty damn good. :D

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I attended winter-solstice party at Wild Nature Museum[a large territoty with preserved ancient-latvian houses and a lake and a forest.
damn it was good
dancing, singing, open fire food, rituals, hrse ridding, snow-battles etc.
everyone could try to make smth from metal in original blacksmith workshop.

and a whole lot more people than in churches;)
seemed tht people from all around have gathered
we are quite a pagan country:)

*Originally posted by tiassa
So who, ultimately, is responsible for the argumentative opposition? If it takes the power of a demon to compel the person to hold such sentiments ...?*

Glad you brought that up.
Are you argumentatively opposite because of a demon?
No?
Then, it's you.

*There shouldn't be any vagueness, I agree, but oh! how you work toward it.*

After following the Brownian motion you call thought, I, too, sometimes feel as though it is pure randomness that drives you.

*This is the will of God, then, for what happens without His authority?*

Not much, except for what you can think up.
God has authorized you to choose between good and evil.
From what I gather, you are hellbent on evil.

*When you attribute the will of God to the work of the devil, are you not blaspheming the holy spirit?*

Well, God did create the waster to destroy, so presumably when the waster is destroying, he's doing his job.

Behold, ...I have created the waster to destroy.
(Isaiah 54:16, KJV).

*You'll notice Satan had to get the Lord's permission before he could torment Job.*

I did notice, thanks.
You, OTOH, will notice that it was Satan asking for it.

*Do you realize that if ever any demon anywhere actually comes into existence and does the things you say, that it is the will of God that it should be so?*

Yeah, so?
That isn't very different from saying if the sun exists, it is the will of God that it should be so.

*There is no way around this argument, since it's Biblical (Matthew 3.38-30*

What Bible is that reference in, and why are you counting backwards?

*you keep calling the will of God the work of demons*

Nah, that would be YOU saying that, repetitively.

*Since I have no real clear memories of that night ... and since I don't seem to be dead or in jail ... I'd say it was pretty damn good. *

Damn?
Probably.

I did notice, thanks.
You, OTOH, will notice that it was Satan asking for it. Actually, I don't see that. You'll have to show me. Satan mentions that all Job has is from the Lord, and if the Lord put out his own hand and took it away then Job would curse Him. The Lord then told Satan to set about tormenting him. The whole point being that despite Satan, it is still the will of God.Glad you brought that up.
Are you argumentatively opposite because of a demon?
No?
Then, it's you. That settles it well enough, then. Enough of this demon-talk.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

*Originally posted by tiassa
The whole point being that despite Satan, it is still the will of God.*

Not quite.
It is the will of God because God honors his word, not because God felt like blasting Job, because Job wasn't actually obeying God at one point...

For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.
(Job 3:25, KJV).

He feared, and the thing which he feared came upon him.

*That settles it well enough, then. Enough of this demon-talk.*

It doesn't actually settle it.
Since it is you and you are argumentatively opposing, you may be starting it, but you may not be able to end it.
By argumentatively opposing, you are actually inviting the demonic to help you, but they, rather than you, may end up deciding when they quit.
Needless to say, that point is normally just after you've taken your last breath.
Since death is the only way out, you have to choose between actual corpse in a coffin death or you may choose this...

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
(Colossians 3:3, KJV).

Not quite.
It is the will of God because God honors his word, not because God felt like blasting Job, because Job wasn't actually obeying God at one point... I don't see what this has to do with it. After all, you're referring to Job's actions later in the book in order to refute a point that has nothing to do with Job's actions. If you were paying attention, you might realize that the point we're discussing with this part of the debate includes your false assertion that Satan asked God's permission to torment Job. Satan asked nothing of the kind. What is it with this habit of yours? You make a false assertion and then change the subject when corrected. Is it that you don't want people understanding God well enough to understand faith? Are you still pushing to chase as many people as possible away from Christ's redemption?

Quit wasting time. Yours, mine, everyone's. If the best your faith can motivate you to is to be wasteful, no amount of bluster and propaganda in all of God's creation will lend credibility to your woefully-conceived theology.

I find myself tempted to once again ask if we're supposed to take you seriously. But I already know the answer if I look to history; the last time I asked you, the question blew right over your head.

--Tiassa :cool:

Ahhh I see I have joined the ranks of those deemed demon possesed by Tony.
You really should get your obsession for possesion in check Tony. It's odd that a child of the Most High would spend so much time enthralled in conversation and acknowledgement of the devils powers. What was it the Bible said about from the abundance of a mans heart comeing from his mouth? LOL

Tony's been so blinded by the Bible he couldn't see Jesus if He fell on his lap. He'd most likely start yelling about a false prophet and demons attached to his legs.

*Originally posted by tiassa
I don't see what this has to do with it. After all, you're referring to Job's actions later in the book in order to refute a point that has nothing to do with Job's actions.*

No, I'm discussing a point that precedes all of the action in Job.

*If you were paying attention, you might realize that the point we're discussing with this part of the debate includes your false assertion that Satan asked God's permission to torment Job. Satan asked nothing of the kind.*

While it is accurate that Satan didn't say, "May I torment Job?", he complains about the situation to God, who then grants the permission.

*Originally posted by Taken
Ahhh I see I have joined the ranks of those deemed demon possesed by Tony. *

You have joined the ranks of the demon-possessed?
Thanks for the warning.

*You really should get your obsession for possesion in check Tony.*

How long has it been since I mentioned demons?

*It's odd that a child of the Most High would spend so much time enthralled in conversation and acknowledgement of the devils powers.*

Well then, why don't you stop?

While it is accurate that Satan didn't say, "May I torment Job?", he complains about the situation to God, who then grants the permission. I believe if you look at the text of Job, the progression of relevant events is that God brags about the faith of Job, Satan says Of course and points out that since Job has always had the Lord's favor why should he not have faith? Satan points out that if God put out his own hand and took those things away, that Job would reject God. The Lord then assigns Satan the task. God made Satan his agent in the world the way that angels announced the coming of Christ. God ordered Satan to do what He would not.

And this whole digression of yours avoids the issue you tried to step around. Here, I'll remind you:If it takes unholy suggestion to put the sentiments into one's mind? This is the will of God, then, for what happens without His authority? When you attribute the will of God to the work of the devil, are you not blaspheming the holy spirit?

You'll notice Satan had to get the Lord's permission before he could torment Job.

Do you realize that if ever any demon anywhere actually comes into existence and does the things you say, that it is the will of God that it should be so? There is no way around this argument, since it's Biblical (Matthew 3.38-30 ... what's funny is that the commentaries around the web seem to reflect my own presupposition of this; and it's something I've pointed out to you several times ... you keep calling the will of God the work of demons). All I'm getting at Tony1 is that for you to look at any portion of the Universe and declare it evil, Satanic, demonic, or otherwise, requires the condition that you know for a fact that this event is utterly outside God's authority and will; otherwise, you are attributing God's will to Satan, which is a Bad Thing To Do according to the Bible. And yet you can't even decide whether these posts are demonic or human or demonic or human ... :rolleyes:

And then there's your stupid response to Taken. You actually had to ignore words in the sentence you were responding to in order to come up with your response. I find that almost cute like baby ducks. It means Baby is learning to read, and soon enough he can respond to grown-up sentences and actually know what they mean.

I mean, really ... you should have just exscinded that part of the sentence like you usually do. But you've given me a Freddie Mercury moment this morning, so thank you for that. ;)

:rolleyes:,
Tiassa :cool:

There is little difference between intentional misrepresentation of the facts, omission of pertinate information and straight out LIEING. And the father of all lies and liars would be??????????????
:)

*Originally posted by tiassa
I believe if you look at the text of Job, the progression of relevant events is that God brags about the faith of Job, Satan says Of course and points out that since Job has always had the Lord's favor why should he not have faith? Satan points out that if God put out his own hand and took those things away, that Job would reject God. The Lord then assigns Satan the task. God made Satan his agent in the world the way that angels announced the coming of Christ. God ordered Satan to do what He would not.*

Not bad, if the section you paraphrased were the only thing in the Bible, but very literal.
The weakness is where you say "The Lord then assigns Satan the task."

He doesn't actually do that.
He simply says that everything IS in Satan's hand, and puts a limit to the damage.
Satan simply missed the gap in the hedge caused by Job's fear, while complaining about the hedge.

*And this whole digression of yours avoids the issue you tried to step around. Here, I'll remind you:*

No problem.
You'll notice that the Lord commanding Satan to do something, combined with your insistence that everything that Satan does is actually from God, is arguing the same thing.
Satan can't do anything on his own without asking permission, since you yourself argue that everything else would be by mandate.

It's too bad that you don't consider the corollaries to your own arguments.
I'm thinking that you can barely grasp your own thoughts so the corollaries would put far too much strain on you.

*All I'm getting at Tony1 is that for you to look at any portion of the Universe and declare it evil, Satanic, demonic, or otherwise, requires the condition that you know for a fact that this event is utterly outside God's authority and will; otherwise, you are attributing God's will to Satan, which is a Bad Thing To Do according to the Bible.*

Nah.
God created the waster to destroy, therefore when I see waste or destruction, I can say it's Satan at work.

*And yet you can't even decide whether these posts are demonic or human or demonic or human *

Sure I can.

*And then there's your stupid response to Taken. You actually had to ignore words in the sentence you were responding to in order to come up with your response.*

I can see that you have difficulty understanding the ramifications of more than one sentence at a time.

Godless says I'm right all of the time, as do some other posters, like Taken.
Therefore if I deem something then that something is.
Ergo, if Taken figures that I've deemed her demon-possessed, then in her mind she is demon-possessed.

*But you've given me a Freddie Mercury moment this morning*

You mean you're dying of AIDS?

*Originally posted by Taken
And the father of all lies and liars would be?????????????? *

After all that you don't know?

:)

Stuck in a thornbush?

:) Dejavu

I get it, stuck in a familiar thornbush.