Imagine yourself, by yourself, completely alone. You feel no heat or cold, nothing for you to physically sense. Everything around you is dark, black; there is a total and absolute absence of light. Imagine existing there for the rest of eternity. Is this what it's like to die? Is this the result of becoming worm food? The total lacking of everything forever? Now what if you were still completely self aware of yourself in this place left with only your thoughts to recycle over and over?

I bring the subject of Hell up because I have been thinking about it a lot lately... My concept of it is not close to what most people stereotypically describe it to be, being filled with fire and brimstone. I don't believe there will be literal flames burning your flesh off. I don't think you'll be able to share your thoughts and experiences with those around you. In other words, there will be no "meeting you in Hell" as I hear said often.

Hell is a total separation from God, right? With no chance ever again to be close to Him. A fiery place where there will be weeping and gnashing at the teeth... but perhaps eternal loneliness could be described as painful as a burning fire? Most of what we read in the Bible about Hell appears to be figurative...

I imagine Hell as a place of total isolation knowing full well that God exists, that you made a choice not to believe and now am left in utter darkness without anyone, ever.

--------------------

Ultimately, my question is, if you believe Hell exists, what do you believe is within it? What do non-believers supposedly face? Note that I am coming from a Christian perspective, but other perspectives are welcome. Am I completely out to lunch? Do you agree with me? I am curious as to what others ideas are as I form an opinion for myself...

Peace. :m:

The total lacking of everything forever? Now what if you were still completely self aware of yourself in this place left with only your thoughts to recycle over and over?

Sounds better than living in this world. But that may be what this world is. Nothingness. Because we (the self) can only think, the thoughts start to become more and more real, like dreams. We feel alone, we start to imagine, dream things, and so this world is created.

Is this the result of becoming worm food?

Atheists believe that they stop existing when the body dies.

A fiery place where there will be weeping and gnashing at the teeth... but perhaps eternal loneliness could be described as painful as a burning fire?

There's nothing painful about loneliness. That's exactly what reality is. There is only one self.

About hell. It exists on earth. When people suffer much, they're in hell.

And yeah... I heard from someone that after your body dies, if you have lived in a wrong way, you will be in darkness and there will be nothing but you. You might stay there for many years, then you'll be born on earth again.

Those who have lived the right way, they will come to the "light" and merge with God.

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell. I do believe in reincarnation, but I don't believe in karma. It doesn't matter if you were good or bad, you get recycled. Maybe as a human, maybe on Earth, maybe not. I believe in the existence of a soul as a form of pure energy. I think the concepts of Heaven and Hell are just ways for us to answer the question of what happens to us after we die.

When I was little I was told by a Christian (don't know what particular sect) that animals had no souls. With no souls, they can't get into Heaven. I didn't want to spend eternity in any place where my best friends weren't allowed. Since most of them were cats, I created in my mind "The Temple of Bast". The spirits of all the cats I've ever known are waiting there and when I die I'll spend some time there (before being recycled) giving them all the ear-scritchin's they could ever want. When I lost my best feline friend of 21 years, it eased the pain to imagine her curled up on a big cushion by a window that's always sunny.

I still haven't decided what happens to the dogs who win our undying affection. I think my little Rexie's spirit moved into my heart.

we as life forms.. are, especially in the brain... electrical in nature.

and electronics teaches us that T=CR and assuming our resistance to a so called heaven was low.. then all we require is the potential to.. as energy.. transcend any distance and as such.... potentially leave our space and return to the original source of energy... as now.. as souls.. qualitively changed...

i.e... God made the universe... and all things... by the application of energy that followed mathamatical precision and resulted in our universe...

predestining the formation of life forms on planets, and in the end.. collecting back the crude energy originally applied... collects back that energy as Jewels in the form of souls... the life and memories of good Godly people...

who make themselves worthy by being good.. and having memories which God may wish to collect and preserve...

i.e.. God doesnt want memories of raping and murdering.. and theiving...

the people with an over abundance of bad memories ... are not collected.
and what happens to their energy is simple...
it is lost into deep space as wave energy... purgatory.
or it is converted into HEAT... due to entropy. HELL.

-MT

P.s.. the reason a God wouldnt collect the souls and so memories of every animal is because they don't do anything.. they dont really think.
they dont have values, and they follow only instinct.. thus comparatively their souls would have much less value than that of a coinscous being such as humans.
(but house pets are different.. they form bonds and relationships with people.. and will often.. think of themselves as human.. and as such.. know affection and sorrow and lonelyness and so forth... thus.. perhaps.. their memories maybe worth something.. but of this i cannot be sure.. how can we?)

(hence a church of science : http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=50697)

Apparently God has never seen a mourning dove beside a recently deceased mate. They think. They have emotion and memories, and they aren't house pets.

It is true, even primates can , and have been documented to act very much like humans... one for example in the wild.. clung to its mother all its life...
and when its mother died.. it fell into depression and soon after died, even though it was young..

As i said... i just don't know.. how could i? How can anyone?

-MT

Hell=Mytholigical/Religious construct to control the masses.

"The Damned cannot Create. Thats the true nature of Hell!"
- Don Juan's Final Night by Edmond Rostand

Ignorance is Hell!

(Was it not Walt Whitman who said, "Hell is other people?")

"The Damned cannot Create. Thats the true nature of Hell!"
- Don Juan's Final Night by Edmond Rostand

Ignorance is Hell!

(Was it not Walt Whitman who said, "Hell is other people?")
no it was Satre, and i agree wit him, but am not an Extentialist. who else but certain people created hells for others and for earth,,,?

Vertigoll.......the whole idea of 'hell' is the 'stick' of patriarchal belief system.....so i wanna take you back to a prepatriarchal understanding of death, darkness, etc...to tryy eaaaase yo miiind

Formprepatriarchal agrarian people death was not to be feared.....blackness/darkness is sacred to the Goddess (notice how patriarchy demonizes darkness, and Nature).....for think of the seed deep in the dark soil, how it is nurtured tee and then begins to crack, and shoots emerge and thewn grows towars the light yet ROOTS are in the dark. the patriarchy CUTS those roots off from us via its oppressive ideology. it makes us FEAR the dark/....what IS dark?....is it just a colour or does it represent someting else?.....how about the unknown?.......does erveryting have to be kbown about....cannot there be an unknown that can nev er be known no matter how much one knows?/....get me?
this unknown is maybe what you fear. yet it is this unknown which is the soil for the known......think it as p;oar relationship wich is dynamic of 'known and unknown........' can you have one witout the other....?

a very ancient prepatriarchal mythical Goddess is Hekate, Goddess of Compost Heaps..........is this death? that we become recycled?......that consciousness and matter/energy is a living process which recycles itself natrually. isn'y this insight more fruitful and liberating tan te dusty patriarchal one of stasis/ of 'just darkness forever and ever' an 'just lightness for ever and ever'...??

Hell is the worst. You dont know anything bout bad, until you take a trip to Hell. Bein there a few times in the past, not such a nice place.I hear theres somewhere called heaven? Wouldnt mind that, how many angels do you get for free??? :D

Hell=Mytholigical/Religious construct to control the masses.

definatly spot-bollock on, in my belief that was the sole purpose of any/all religion, to 'control the masses'. It kinda worked for a bit , but not in this day and age. :bugeye:

hell is a construct of the human mind, just as is heaven.

from a jewish perspective, the most detail you will get regarding hell is the word "sheol" which means "the grave" or "death".

all religions which sprout from judaism that talk about fire and brimstone are just making things up. the ministers, priests, imams, etc...that spout this dogma are just repeating what was taught to them by the church itself.

other religions, however...they have quite interesting views on hell. why doesnt anyone stick up for zoroastrian folks on these forums?! lol
:m:

definatly spot-bollock on, in my belief that was the sole purpose of any/all religion, to 'control the masses'. It kinda worked for a bit , but not in this day and age. :bugeye:
SO what do you believe has replaced 'hell' for controlling the masses in this day and age then?

Self-imposition. Very little in this world is in clear-cut black & white, so people in desperate need for something with no ambiguity cling to the basic tenet that good people go to Heaven, bad people go to Hell. They allow themselves to believe in these concepts for some sense of definition and maybe as a coping device. When a killer gets set free because of lack of evidence or because of some loophole, much as we'd like to hunt the SOB down and put him out of our misery (let's assume he's actually guilty but the arresting officer left a comma out of the Miranda rights or something stupid like that), some of us keep our baser emotions and impulses in check with the belief that he'll get his just deserts in the end. He may be smug now, but just wait until Satan is shoving live rats into his anus.

He may be smug now, but just wait until Satan is shoving live rats into his anus.


unless he is Richard Gere...

The aura field of our bodies collapses at death... where the energy goes is determined by our polarity..

that is what i preach.

-MT

Mosheh- When I first read your post I thought it said "...where the energy goes is determined by our popularity..."

AAAgh! My aura field needs more coffee! :D

Seriously, though, what do you mean by it's polarity? Are we talking traditional electrons, protons, neutrons, etc?

SO what do you believe has replaced 'hell' for controlling the masses in this day and age then?

I think you misunderstood me.

But thats just it, i dont believe religion works in controling the masses now at all, i mean look at the present day situation, the war in Iraq, terrorist activity rife throughout the world, all in the name 'of the lord'.

But thinking about it, its not just in this day and age, its throughout history, virtually every war thats been waged has been done so on 'behalf' of religion, this of course is bollocks, as many religions preach peace, but is the excuse given.

Therefore religion in my eyes, has failed.

I concur.

It occurs to me that people often substitute religeon with drugs these days.

It occurs to me that people often substitute religeon with drugs these days.
*************
M*W: Yes, that's true. It's trading one addiction for another.

Mosheh- When I first read your post I thought it said "...where the energy goes is determined by our popularity..."

AAAgh! My aura field needs more coffee! :D

Seriously, though, what do you mean by it's polarity? Are we talking traditional electrons, protons, neutrons, etc?

You body has a field of energy... thus is has polarity in more than one sense.... and when it collapses, that polarity will determine what happens to that energy...

I would say more.. but I'd risk promoting theoretical metaphyscial concepts... of which there is little real data to work with.

-MT

Still, I find it an interesting concept. So what happens to a negative polarity as opposed to a positive polarity?

Another question, is the polarity constant, or does it change over the course of our lives? Does physical illness lean toward a negative polarity, or is more based on a conflict of what we define as "right" or "moral"? I.e., if we do something that we consider wrong or immoral, we're left with a negative polarity probably in the form of a conscience that's bothering us. Or is the polarity pretty much what defines what we consider moral or immoral, and it's acting against that steady polarity that causes us problems?

I would suggest that you imagine the polarity eminating from the top of your skull..

I.e.. the lines of force.. hence.. polarity...

with a conscious effort you can imagine these lines (not all of them) extending from you... up and up... forever until the edges of space itself, and beyond.....

now such is Godly polarity... your mind is on God... and you make an effort to be polarized with God...

but we can drift... far.. as Atheists would not make any such "Connection"
but there lines maybe imagined as bent... literally..
curved.. and as such may tend towards connection with anything... literally..

such as the evil pervert slinking in the shadows... his polarity maybe imagined as curved and and pointed back at himself or towards the center of the earth. or the sun... or the moon... anything but God...

in many ways i would suggest that such fields are natural and simply representative of our beings quality... and as such... they can be perverted ...

distorted...
and or mis-directed...

i could draw pictures as i have done.. but it wont help.

-MT

its an interesting visualization, MT.
i will give it some thought, for sure.

...
I bring the subject of Hell up because I have been thinking about it a lot lately...
Peace. :m:

Hell is the cesspool of misery and suffering that Laughter and Joy make Heaven.

It is all in the mind: misery and suffering make it hell,
and Laughter and Joy of this same misery and suffering make it heaven.

Heaven and Hell is like unto a long table filled with the most sumptuous delectable morsels of food that has yet been seen! Always the favorite of those there.

Lined alongside the table were all the dearly departed in fine wooden chairs. All had a marvelous apetite! All had their arms chained to the chairs so as that they could not reach their mouths with any of the food that they could reach. Some were horribly frustrated and angry. They were a pestilence to their unfortunate neighbors, and themselves.. always frustrated and always 'almost' but not 'getting it'. They are certainly in Hell.

Others at the table found that though they could not reach their own mouths, they COULD reach the mouth of their neighbors. The sharing, lack of striving, goodwill and good energy that they displayed made it obvious to them that they were in Heaven.

The difference between heaven and hell?
Perspective!
What is hell?
Perspective!

if the energy that was your soul, manifested as your aura, as as such works with the function of transporting your memories in the form of static energy...
then if that energy manifested as heat on a small bit of flesh, as in your brain...
then since time has no bearing on pure energy as spatial tension...
an eternity in hell can be lived out slowly, as the energy that was you is converted into heat... literally burned... and converted by entropy...
and this could happen in 1/10th of a sec.. but to you.. in hell..
it may seem like forever.

if your lucky... you would end up as radio waves floating aimlessly in deep space...
hence.. purgatory.

-MT

What is Hell?

Hell is a tool; one that has been used for milliniums by the powers that be, to control the masses to the elites biting. Thus follow our way, our religion, our idealism or else you would end up in hell. A tool to manipulate, same as heaven is a tool to manipulate behaviour. Nothing more, nothing less. These are just tools to manipulate.

Godless

What is Hell?

Hell is a tool; one that has been used for milliniums by the powers that be, to control the masses to the elites biting. Thus follow our way, our religion, our idealism or else you would end up in hell. A tool to manipulate, same as heaven is a tool to manipulate behaviour. Nothing more, nothing less. These are just tools to manipulate.

Godless
YES, i agree.
here's ways to break is pell, and dig deeper.
dont just buy your particular fave myth's explanaztion

for example, here, at these boards, in teee 21 century, are some posters stll warning about the 'Lake of Fire' and how certain people who do stuff they and their belief system dont agree wid is gonna end up in

they of course haven't got the creativity to explore their dramtically delivered judgments. butit is simple when you know how

They would find tat that mythic motif of 'lake of fire' apparently originates--at least as writ-down dogma--in ancient Egypt/ check it out. never believe noone. BUt, dig. unlike te Christianized version of neverending damnation, the Egyptian one is just for a relatively short stay...Feel better?.....you can also research about fire and it mythic references via this powerful computer befo you.......you may find references to fire in Zoroastrianism. where fire = 'God'......etc etc. Zoroastranism is first dualistic doctrine of 'good' vs 'evil'....!

also it's important to understand that hell's and heavens CAN be experiences, both psychologically, and actually. for example psychedelic experience can give you experience of all states includng hellish states and heavenly ones, and actual life can give you luxurious existence and concentration camps

ting is to be open to one's potential dynamic wholeness so you dont become party TO creating hells on Earth, or seeking to create heavens on Earth which create hell for millions of others!!

ting is to be open to one's potential dynamic wholeness so you dont become party TO creating hells on Earth, or seeking to create heavens on Earth which create hell for millions of others!!

Yep! like the builders of utopia, at the price of innocence.

Mosheh- Why do you assume that an atheist can't make any connection? Is it necessary to believe in an external god to have any connection with something beyond the physical world? I am an atheist, but I believe that there is more to existence than what the tactile senses reveal.

The term God.... is for lack of a better word....

the source of energy in creation... cannot be precieved... cannot be understood..

and for 10,000 years... man has used the term God as a way to identify that which has no actuall name... no known form...

and i see no reason to stop using the term GOD... just because alot of wackos like to attach their own views to it.. and may say alot of wacko things..

in the end.. we have no idea... and can only theorize...

But the term God... is still the only term that fits.

-MT

The term God.... is for lack of a better word....

the source of energy in creation... cannot be precieved... cannot be understood..

and for 10,000 years... man has used the term God as a way to identify that which has no actuall name... no known form...

and i see no reason to stop using the term GOD... just because alot of wackos like to attach their own views to it.. and may say alot of wacko things..

in the end.. we have no idea... and can only theorize...

But the term God... is still the only term that fits.

-MT
*************
M*W: Why is that the only term that "fits?" "God" is a contraction taken from the old English "good" as in "good be wythe thee." Why can't we call the force of energy that some people call "God" simply "a force of energy." Why give it a name, and then anthropomorphize it with human characteristics such as "God knows," "God feels," "God sees," "God gives," "God loves...?" These are fantasy metaphors that serve no purpose but to perpetuate the lies.

I didnt say to use God in that way....

God.. Jehovah... Allah.. doesnt matter to me.... they are all names we use to discuss that which we cannot name...

As God supposively said to Moses.. I AM, THAT I AM.

God didnt even clarify it for Moses.
-MT

The term God.... is for lack of a better word....

the source of energy in creation... cannot be precieved... cannot be understood..


Thanks for clarifying that this suppose entity has no identity!. I've always said that god is a word, with no meaning, and the above coming from a theist clarifies it. Thanks again. Belief in god is then delusional.

God.. Jehovah... Allah.. doesnt matter to me.... they are all names we use to discuss that which we cannot name...

Thanks again, point well taken no identity, means no existence. Good job mate. Are you sure your not atheist?

As God supposively said to Moses.. I AM, THAT I AM

Ah! great, this statement "I am, That I am" was Moses first realiazation that the voice inside his freaking head was becoming conscious of itself. This is in reference to Dr. Julian Jaynes' (The Origin of Consciousness in the
Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind) You should pick up a copy good read, even for theists. Audio intro to book (http://www.julianjaynes.org/bicameralmind.php)

Good job.

Godless

no...

and personnally i think Moses was struck by lightning,..... which is the only thing that can set a green bush on fire.... and also, turn a mans hair white...
and as such would be an effective means of allowing God, to touch a man.

I am not an Atheist, as i am a scientist, who knows what is in evidense... and what is an assumption.... and the evidense.. suggests a creation.
thats all.

-MT

I am not an Atheist, as i am a scientist, who knows what is in evidense... and what is an assumption.... and the evidense.. suggests a creation.

Oh! please do tell, this would be a good topic for you to start. Were is the evidence for creation?.

Godless

Mosheh- You still didn't explain why an atheist couldn't make a connection to anything other than the physical world. An atheist does not believe in gods. An atheist can believe in energies that haven't yet been identified. General Ethan Allen of the American Revolution used the word "God" as a way to describe the forces that he saw working in nature. He had no connection with the god expounded by the church and openly voiced his opinion that if anything deserved worship it was the sun, without which life as we know it would end. (Of course, the church branded him a heretic, a Deist, and all kinds of other things, but it didn't seem to bother him, or his church-going wife, in the least.)

I didnt say to use God in that way....

God.. Jehovah... Allah.. doesnt matter to me.... they are all names we use to discuss that which we cannot name...

As God supposively said to Moses.. I AM, THAT I AM.

God didnt even clarify it for Moses.
-MT
*************
M*W: Again, why must a force of energy have a name. It already has a name -- Energy. Why not simply call it that?

I see. You're a scientist. hmmmm... If you were a scientist, you'd know there is no word called "supposively."

Your immaturity is showing.

Oxygen:... it is just as theoretical that the energy could reincarnate into a cow...
but such would literally be the constant recycling of souls...
and as such.... as a universal process is not an effective means of collecting volumes of good high quality soul jewels for Gods collection...

although.. if reincarnation was a true process, then such a process would likely result in the development of much higher quality souls... yet the harvests would be few and yield little... and such would be a waste of the universe...

for as such... the specific individual memories of the people per lifetime have less meaning... and less value... which as a mindset, allows people to spend life meditating on nothingness when they could be colonising the moon.



Godless:
the evidense..
http://img295.imageshack.us/img295/1827/abun335ks.th.jpg (http://img295.imageshack.us/my.php?image=abun335ks.jpg)


the bible.. my interpretation based on evidense.
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/7431/bibone4yv.th.jpg (http://img71.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bibone4yv.jpg)


unification....
http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/3281/bcoverrrr1by.th.jpg (http://img98.imageshack.us/my.php?image=bcoverrrr1by.jpg)

-MT

*************
M*W: Again, why must a force of energy have a name. It already has a name -- Energy. Why not simply call it that?

I see. You're a scientist. hmmmm... If you were a scientist, you'd know there is no word called "supposively."

Your immaturity is showing.
No.. what is showing is my awful grammer.. as i am self taught, mostly.

-MT

That's not evidence that's a hypothesis formulated on the assumption that a big bang happened. Wrong kiddo to try and pull this one over.

I don't adhire to the BB theory.

The only test of scientific truth is how well a theory corresponds to the world we observe. Does it predict things that we can then see? Or do our observations of nature show things that a theory says are impossible? No matter how well liked a theory may be, if observation contradicts it, then it must be rejected. For science to be useful, it must provide an increasingly true and deep description of nature, not a prescription of what nature must be.

In the past four years crucial observations have flatly contradicted the assumptions and predictions of the Big Bang. Because the Big Bang supposedly occurred only about twenty billion years ago, nothing in the cosmos can be older than this. Yet in 1986 astronomers discovered that galaxies compose huge agglomerations a billion light-years across; such mammoth clustering of matter must have taken a hundred billion years to form. Just as early geological theory, which sought to compress the earth's history into a biblical few thousand years crumbled when confronted with the aeons needed to build up a mountain range, so the concept of a Big Bang is undetermined by the existence of these vast and ancient superclusters of galaxies.

click (http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Cosmology-Big-Bang-Theory.htm)

Furthermore the bible is the wrong book to bring as some kind of ontological proof of our universe, these are stories and rationalizations written by nomads who were at the cusp of their mental evolution, thus rendering the scriptures as unrealiable source of scientific theory.

Lets take a look of what the church accepted as a cosmological reality in the middle ages, they believed the geocentric theory of Heraclides (330 B.C.) to be the way our universe actually worked, today thanks to a brave man who had to deliver his findings in his death bed to escape prosecution as heretic from the church set the motion in a way to our Reinesance. His name you should know was Nicolaus Corpinicus.

Furthermore if we were to ref. the bible it expands in this geocentric theory as well.

(The mobility of the sun
The most important biblical quote supporting a geocentric universe can be found in the Book of Joshua. This will be used as the starting point for our scriptural cosmology.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

The miracle of Joshua appears again as a reference in The Book of Habakkuk.

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

The evidence in support of a geocentric model is overwhelming here. Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary. The sun was commanded to stand still because it is the sun that moves. Descriptions of its motion can be rather poetic.)click (http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml)

Good try man, but no dice!. :p

Godless

That's not evidence that's a hypothesis formulated on the assumption that a big bang happened. Wrong kiddo to try and pull this one over.

I don't adhire to the BB theory.

click (http://www.spaceandmotion.com/Cosmology-Big-Bang-Theory.htm)

Furthermore the bible is the wrong book to bring as some kind of ontological proof of our universe, these are stories and rationalizations written by nomads who were at the cusp of their mental evolution, thus rendering the scriptures as unrealiable source of scientific theory.

Lets take a look of what the church accepted as a cosmological reality in the middle ages, they believed the geocentric theory of Heraclides (330 B.C.) to be the way our universe actually worked, today thanks to a brave man who had to deliver his findings in his death bed to escape prosecution as heretic from the church set the motion in a way to our Reinesance. His name you should know was Nicolaus Corpinicus.

Furthermore if we were to ref. the bible it expands in this geocentric theory as well.

(The mobility of the sun
The most important biblical quote supporting a geocentric universe can be found in the Book of Joshua. This will be used as the starting point for our scriptural cosmology.

Joshua 10:12-13
Then spoke Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord gave the Amorites over to the men of Israel; and he said in the sight of Israel, "Sun, stand thou still at Gibeon, and thou Moon in the valley of Aijalon." And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the nation took vengeance on their enemies. Is this not written in the Book of Jashar? The sun stayed in the midst of heaven, and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.

The miracle of Joshua appears again as a reference in The Book of Habakkuk.

Habakkuk 3:11
The sun and moon stood still in their habitation at the light of thine arrows as they sped, at the flash of thy glittering spear.

The evidence in support of a geocentric model is overwhelming here. Joshua commanded the sun to stand still. He did not order the earth to cease rotating nor did he qualify his statement with the divine knowledge that the sun was merely made to appear stationary. The sun was commanded to stand still because it is the sun that moves. Descriptions of its motion can be rather poetic.)click (http://hypertextbook.com/eworld/geocentric.shtml)

Good try man, but no dice!. :p

Godless
*************
M*W: Thanks, Godless. You've brought up some good points. I'd like to reiterate that when the bible refers to the sun, moon and stars, etc., it is nothing but an ancient astrological calendar. I don't claim to be an astrologer, by any means, I wish I knew more about it. I've learned more about astrology from the bible than from any other source!

"The coming day of the Lord" refers to Sun-day, the day of the sun who was viewed as the ultimate supreme god of all creation. Your quotes from Joshua and Habbukuk also refer to astrological positions, the latter most likely referring to an eclipse taking place in the Sign of Sagittarius since "arrow" was mentioned.

The "wars" spoken of were most likely shooting stars or planets obscured by the sun and moon, or a convergence of planets lining up.

The ancient nomads you mentioned probably nomadded their ways by the stars as sailors have done since they built their first thatched canoe.

The repetitions found in the bible are ways of explaining cyclic cosmology and have absolutely nothing to do, necessarily, with anything happening on earth. Although, there is "a time to plant and a time to refrain from planting," for those who tilled the Earth, the whole Lucifer's rebellion thing was nothing more than a meteor shower of "falling stars." After all, Lucifer was the "light bringer."

My humble advice to those who are reading the bible and to those who thump it (you know who you are), would be to look at the scripture from the cosmological angle it was written, and I promise you, it will become ever so clear that it's nothing but ancient astrology.

Although, there is "a time to plant and a time to refrain from planting," for those who tilled the Earth, the whole Lucifer's rebellion thing was nothing more than a meteor shower of "falling stars." After all, Lucifer was the "light bringer."

are you unable to understand such things as spiritual (or "mental") darkness. meteor shower... gimme a break. just as there is a sun out there that gives light to the physical world, there is a light within us that gives light to the inner world.... that light is lucifer, who is both satan and god at the same time.

My humble advice to those who are reading the bible and to those who thump it (you know who you are), would be to look at the scripture from the cosmological angle it was written, and I promise you, it will become ever so clear that it's nothing but ancient astrology.

the bible is about god, and so is astrology. but it's not ONLY astrology.

Thats fine if you don't believe in BIG BANG... niether do i... thats my point.

and im sorry to say, the best alternative to a BIG BANG, is this idea,, based fundamentally on the application of energy from an outside sourse.

-MT

if reincarnation was a true process, then such a process would likely result in the development of much higher quality souls... yet the harvests would be few and yield little... and such would be a waste of the universe...

Mosheh
All souls are of the highest quality, even that of the cow (which I sense that you regard as worth less than a human soul, although cows are quite a useful animal [or are you taking a friendly jab at my avatar? :)])

...high quality soul jewels for Gods collection...
Sounds like we have to make sure we're pretty enough to be part of some cosmic trinket box. I'd like to believe that my existence has a higher meaning than that.

Oxygen:
prettiness has nothing to do with it..

and cows maybe real nice, and peaceful, and gentle...

but thats because the bulls are mean.

and cows and bulls dont do much.. dont think much, and so dont live very interesting lives...

and the question we need to ask ourself, is whether God would want the memories of a cow.. sitting in a field all day, everyday, chewing cud... boring.

the life of a human, even a retarded crippled one, would still be 10,000 times more interesting... even if it had suffering.

if you believe in re-incarnaition, then you should know that the common believe in Hindu, and Buddhist countries, is that we improve ourselves with each life, and get closer to perfection.. or by being bad.. we go in reverse.. and become something less than human, and have to start over... the cycle of lives towards perfection.

what religion are you?
-MT

I believe in reincarnation. I do not necessarily agree with the Hindu and Buddhist systems, which are humanocentric. (I think that's the word for it.) And just because a bull or a cow doesn't do anything that humans find interesting doesn't mean that they are mere zombies stanfing in a field waiting to get milked, bred or slaughtered. Because of where I live I have the opportunity to observe cow herds every day. Have you ever seen bovines actually playing? It's not a common sight, and I at first thought it was limited to the calves, but I have seen two adults chase each other (albeit at lower speeds) taking turns nipping at each other's flanks, kind of like "tag". I have yet to see a "mean" bull. I've seen some aggressive ones, and I saw one who found a gap in a fence and got out on to Patterson Pass. I wouldn't call him mean. Gutsy, yes. Mean, no. He stood at one side of the road and feigned charges at the cars as they went by. (I say 'feigned' because he only got near enough to make the car swerve, not to actually hit the car.) We had to pass him but had seen his pattern. So as we went by my husband swerved toward him, stuck out his hand and slapped him. That was one surprised bull! Observe animal behavior a bit more and see what interesting lives they lead. If you live in or near a city, pay attention to pigeons in the underpasses. I watched them one day as they dove at cars. They weren't just diving from ledge to ledge. There was a group of four in particular that with each pass got closer and closer to the cars. While no cars were passing by, they stayed on their ledges. As soon as a car entered the underpass, one or two would swoop across at windshield level, as though they were trying to see who could get closer to the car without getting hit.

As for religion, I have none. I used to. I was born RC but as I got older and discovered different belief systems, I also saw their uses, how they help, and how they hurt. When I walked away from gods and religions altogether I became more at ease with myself and the world around me. I came to see religion to be like training wheels on a bicycle, keeping you upright until you develop your balance and can ride on your own. Some people need religion to steady their lives like training wheels steady a bicycle. I don't anymore. I rely on my own judgement to keep myself steady. Sometimes that judgement is off and I take a spill, but I just get back up and dust myself off and continue.

so hell can also be seeing meaninglessness in others, othe species, mountaines, rocks, water, streams, things

so a person in this stae would see animals as mere automations, just there to be exploited...

duendy-I agree. It indicates a lack of compassion for anything other than one's own kind, and some people don't even have that.

I had two dear pets who passed away a couple of years ago within a week of each other. The dog was 17, the cat was 21. I saw them born and when they died I dug their graves. I was emotionally crushed because of the bond that had formed. Any god that tells me that the life of a serial killer/child molester is worth more than Rex and Mamacat isn't worthy to kiss my ass.

Imagine yourself, by yourself, completely alone. ....

I imagine Hell as a place of total isolation knowing full well that God exists, that you made a choice not to believe and now am left in utter darkness without anyone, ever.

Peace. :m:

These words "I imagine..." is the definition of the ego, the mind.

THE EGO IS HELL.

To be egoless is TO BE HEAVEN+GOD itself.
To think otherwise is to miss the SAME SIMPLE MESSAGE that all non-egos keep echoing through the ages:


That which makes the mind think but which cannot be thought by the mind - that alone is God, not what people worship. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)The Upanishads

I have put my truth in your innermost mind, and I have written it in your heart. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Psalm 46

For the kingdom of God is within you. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)Jesus of Nazareth

Whoever knows himself knows God. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)Muhammad

The state of silence is a state of entire peace, in which the intellect ceases to occupy itself with the unreal. In this silence, the great soul who knows and is one with Brahman enjoys unmingled bliss forever.(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Shankara

Don't follow the advice of others; rather, learn to listen to the voice within yourself. Your body and mind will become one, and you will realize the unity of all things. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Dogen

Many people imagine that there is "creature being" here and "divine being" in heaven. This is not true. You behold God in your life in the same perfection, and are blessed in exactly the same way, as in the afterlife.
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Meister Eckhart

Whenever a mind is simple and receives a divine wisdom, old things pass away, - means, teachers, texts, temples fall; it lives now, and absorbs past and future into the present hour. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) Ralph Waldo Emerson

If your mind is empty, it is always ready for anything; it is open to everything. In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities; in the expert's mind there are few. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Shunryu Suzuki

If we find fullness of joy in the thought that God exists, we should find
the same fullness in the knowledge that we ourselves do not exist, for it is
the same thought. (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god) - Simone Weil

If the mind is happy, not only the body but the whole world will be happy.(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Ramana Maharshi

"There is no greater mystery than this, that we keep
seeking reality though in fact we are reality. We
think that there is something hiding reality and that
this must be destroyed before reality is gained.
How ridiculous! A day will dawn when you will laugh
at all your past efforts. That which will be the day
you laugh is also here and now." (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Ramana Maharshi

"You are all Buddhas
There is nothing you need to achieve.
Just open your eyes." (translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Siddhartha Gautama

It is proper to doubt. Do not be led by holy scriptures, or by mere logic or inference, or by appearances, or by the authority of religious teachers. But when you realize that something is unwholesome and bad for you, give it up. And when you realize something is wholesome and good for you, do it. (because : YOU ARE heaven +god) Gautama Buddha

"The spirit of man is inseparable from the Infinite, and
can be satisfied with nothing less than the Infinite."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- James Allen

"That which is essential is invisible to the eye."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
Antoine de Saint Exupery

"There is in all visible things...a hidden wholeness."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- Thomas Merton

"The fact is that because no one thing or feature of
this universe is separable from the whole,
the only real You, or Self, is the whole."
(translation: YOU ARE heaven +god)
-- Alan Watts

genep....dont use Alan Watts' words to justify your ideas. he was not at all meaning what you do---not my experience of his.....twas Watts who really enouraged FULL expression of ALL feelings, NOT just emphasizing comedy

you see i view patriarchal mindsets--of which i include Vedanta--as a demonizing mindset. it loves scapegoating. in your case the 'victim' is the ego......now admittedly one can have TOO much ego. Wattsexplained about this in his book, 'Pyschotherapy East and West', but this doesn't mean doing away with ego entirely. for 'ego' is really one' unique point of view is all, what makes me me and you you

in ancinet traditions tere is a spsirtual event called 'ego-death'--actually this doesn't mean the ego DIES, it means that A worldview does an a new more all-embracing ego is 'born'...if this is not understood and one idenifies with the'One' or 'Universe' or 'God' then tis leads to all kinds of self-agrandizement/inflation

the bulls are perhaps not MEAN... but tuff and rugged, and yes... aggressive..

there job is to defend the cows... from predators...

as a bull is a forminable animal.
-MT

thats why the cow was domesticated... they are easy to catch.

genep....dont use Alan Watts' words to justify your ideas. he was not at all meaning what you do---not my experience of his.....twas Watts who really enouraged FULL expression of ALL feelings, NOT just emphasizing comedy

...

in ancinet traditions tere is a spsirtual event called 'ego-death'--actually this doesn't mean the ego DIES, it means that A worldview does an a new more all-embracing ego is 'born'...if this is not understood and one idenifies with the'One' or 'Universe' or 'God' then tis leads to all kinds of self-agrandizement/inflation

duendy -- they are just words, the Supreme Comedy.

If you are not going to agree with yourself second to second then why on earth should I care about what you think when it changes from second to second.
And if you can understand that then you will understand why I also don’t care about what I think because it also changes from second to second.
-- laughs

ECHO --
Except for perhaps a few dozen people on earth
each person reads the same words differently.
And the joke get bigger
because each day the same person reads the same words differently.
And the joke gets even bigger
as the mind’s needs and hormones changes the meanings of these same words in the same person from minute to minute and second to second.

And the Supreme Comedy can only rocket to another level when you ask me what these words mean when I have nothing to do with the way the meanings of words change from person to person let alone minute to minute.

And the Supreme Comedy rockets yet to another hilarious level
when dictionaries then go on to tell us, with the utmost authority,
that the same words can have different meanings,
in different ways
but not on different days.

-- UV-gap

Hell is traditionally a place of ultimate misery. But misery is caused by chemicals in our brains. Does that mean our souls have glands too?

Mosheh-Being "easy to catch" only facilitated their domestication. Still, earlier humans had to deal with those aggressive bulls in order to get the cows. Plus, you can't have cows unless there are bulls around to help create them. As the domestication of livestock played a part in the creation of settled communities which, for better or for worse, led to more advanced civilizations, which, for better or for worse, led to a search for god beyond the natural religion, I think your system underestimates the value of the animal. I prefer to think along more naturalistic lines that all life forms on this planet are part of the same web with no particular one being more or less valuable to the whole than the other. That's why when a species goes extinct by whatever means, Mother Nature tries to fill in the gap lest the web unravel and fall apart.

and so then what is hell?
-MT

and so then what is hell?
-MT
what hints do we have:apart from the laughing genep, most of us know whatit is like to feel hellish dont we? in moments of despair, terror, dread......Sme peple who tis culture classes as 'mentall ill' actually can have hellish visions etc, as well as heavenish. but we are talkinghell

We also are very aware of hellish places and situatons on Earth....terrible violent
areas where you can get harmed, ar zons, awful events like Holocaust, Tsunami, Whatis happening is places in Africa, starvation, war etc etc etc

In modern consciousness research (Stanislav Grof) we havevast amount of data from pople who hav experientailly had all kinds of 'non-ordinary' experience including hellish xperience facilitated both by psychedelic psychotherapy, and Holotropic Breathing

Also in Near Death Experiences, spme have had not-so-pleasant experiences, but hellish experiences

So one ting we KNOW. the EXPERIENCE of hell can be had psycologically and physically in our lifetime, right? but we also want to know can we experience such when REALLY dead?

who can tell us?

one can surmize its possibility. one ting torealize though, that unlike the patriarchal conception of 'hell', the more ancient pagan understanding is the the 'Underworld/Otherworld' is ambiguous..ie., itis not OPPOSEDto 'heaven'----and is a poweful place of learning. Ad is not everlasting--nothng is--but is part of natural process of experiential potentia