Mortality tells its stories to me everyday. I see on shows like CSI: Miami gangster killers who create nothing but pain and death and revel in it even at a place of mourning, such as a cemetery. Turning human life itself into a joke. I believe that to have no conscience means to improperly weigh the suffering of others and view it as distinct to their own means and methods of responding to suffering. It is the belief of the masochistic mentality to form the twisted system of calculation where the value of life is proportional to suffering, and therefore the ultimate loss for the victim is the only thing deserving of the killer’s respect. Their means and method of dissolving the suffering of life itself and converting it to an inferior status allows the killer to observe suffering from a superior standpoint, thereby seeing it as a joke or play where they engage in an acting role. I am of course referring only to those killers who kill for satisfaction, not every kind. Those are the ones that psychology labels the psychotics, a subset of psychopaths under which all killers who kill without a conscience fall.

There are a lot of books that deal with this subject (I probably don't have to tell you not to do your research from the TV), and one I really liked was simply called "Evil". I can't recall the author, but it was a study of serial killers and so-called "normal" people who "just suddenly snap". It also looked at the way non-killers view killers, how we try to rationalize their behavior and takes a good hard look at the psychology behind killing another human being. It was a disturbing book for its frank, nonjudgemental approach to some pretty heinous crimes, but I couldn't put it down until I'd finished it. Then, of course, I loaned it to a friend and never saw it again.

I honestly don't think I could kill another person except in defense. (Well, by 'could' I mean I'm not inclined to.)

What is A Killers Mentality Like?
Much the same as anybody else.
Homicide is mostly domestic, people who knew each other, or thought they did.

--- Ron.

I think we should not underestimate the effect the law has on our behaviour, it totally masks what we may or may not do in a given circumstance if not for the power of it and the fear of it.

I often wonder when refraining from something I know to be wrong, how much refraining is due to obeying the law and how if any of it is due to my own conscience.

Having grown up knowing those who formed part of the criminal underworld, I know that the only difference betweeen them and us is a regard for legal law.

They have own laws going in degree's

example with regard to theft: (and this can be applied equally to killing or any other criminal act)

Some theives will:

Rob stores BUT not private homes

others will
rob stores, private homes but not their own neighbours homes

others will, rob stores, homes, neighbours BUT NOT their own families

others will rob stores, homes, neighbours, own families but NOT childrens toys

etc etc and so on.

I obey conventional law, these outside of those laws either obey their 'gang' law or their own constructed law based on what they see as morally right or wrong. Everyone who does something we see as wrong can justify it to themsleves and thus they rarely see themselves as wrong.

Thus the cultural diffrences and the horrors we see in some cultures and the horrors we see in war, it appears the majority are capable of quite a lot we regard as obhorent given a sort of permission to do so.

Having grown up knowing those who formed part of the criminal underworld, I know that the only difference betweeen them and us is a regard for legal law.


Consider for instance the jail inhabitants in terms of literacy. If they all knew how to read and write you might then be half way to civilisation.

--- Ron.

Consider for instance the jail inhabitants in terms of literacy. If they all knew how to read and write you might then be half way to civilisation.

--- Ron.

well the ones I knew were above average intelligence, so not an education thing, they in their intelligence figured they'd get along and profit outside the law with greater ease. When asking someone why 'do x' when you got caught, he replied, 'well there were plenty of things I didn't get caught for'..it's part of the buisness they are in. They take the risk of being caught just as firemen take risk of dying everytime they go into a house fire.

Which is worse risk? Death in fire or imprisonment? It's all about who is your 'governor', the law, religion, family, yourself. The ones who govern themsleves threaten the other groups as no one can predict what their moral code might be or where their boundaries lie.

37 percent of the UK prison population have a reading age of less than 11.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/F1601472?thread=3230599?s_returnto=c1501

--- Ron.

37 percent of the UK prison population have a reading age of less than 11.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/F1601472?thread=3230599?s_returnto=c1501

--- Ron.

which means that 63% have what reading age ? :) average? higher than average? Or is it the case of the clever ones don't get caught? Or can afford to hire someone else to do their dirty work?

More to the point I think you'll find that the literacy rate is much worse for serious crimes like murder.

I got this from the horse's mouth, so to speak; used to live in a squat with the adopted daughter of the Deputy Governor of Wormwood Scrubs, while her step brother was remanded in a borstal, for theft, I think it was.

When younger they used to live by the Dartmoor Jail.

Another thing to watch out for is the very high incidence of Jail inmates with Tattoos.

--- Ron.

More to the point I think you'll find that the literacy rate is much worse for serious crimes like murder.

I got this from the horse's mouth, so to speak; used to live in a squat with the adopted daughter of the Deputy Governor of Wormwood Scrubs, while her step brother was remanded in a borstal, for theft, I think it was.

When younger they used to live by the Dartmoor Jail.

Another thing to watch out for is the very high incidence of Jail inmates with Tattoos.

--- Ron.

and religion and love of poetry

They usually don't develop those interests until after they've been stuck in prison for awhile. I think it's a coping mechanism.

(I just had this image of a pin-stripe suited mafia goon writing a love poem to his moll: "Duhh, Roses are red, violets are blue, dese diamonds are hot, and so are youse...")

Most of your common, street-level criminals, if not of average intelligence are only slightly below average, according to a study in Psychology Today. The below-average intelligence is more often lack of personal discipline in school than mental defect. Although, if you ever watch "COPS", it's always funny to see someone carrying tons of meth in their car and blowing stop signs, red lights, speeding, etc. Uh, hey Einstein, if you're packing a mini-meth lab in your trunk, you may want to not draw attention to yourself.

The average genuine gangster needs to have some sort of business/political sense far beyond the poetic stereotype I mentioned before. Some of these guys would be quite successful without having to constantly look over their shoulders if they were legitimate businessmen. But crime offers a quick boost to finances, and very few brag about the liabilities involved. And just like the corporate world, only a select few make it to the flashy top that's depicted in movies and TV.

Plus, there's no 401K, no pension plan, no health benefits, eh, I'd rather stay legit. It's nice to know the police are more likely to believe my story than that of the crack-head that lives behind me.

.... Some of these guys would be quite successful without having to constantly look over their shoulders if they were legitimate businessmen. But crime offers a quick boost to finances, and very few brag about the liabilities involved. And just like the corporate world, only a select few make it to the flashy top that's depicted in movies and TV.

Nah. I used to sell shit to raise cash to travel around Europe. There is nothing to it, except for counting the money, picking up the jargon and keeping appointments.

Even in a foriegn country the need was only to ask around the streets and the custom was there to be had, no effort required.

Liabilities? No advertising outlay, no tax to pay, no business address and books to maintain; it is a mug's game.

--- Ron.

Another thing to watch out for is the very high incidence of Jail inmates with Tattoos.
What have tattoos qua tattoos got to do with it?

Tattoos indicate a lack of concern for long term consequence, something easy for a prison governor to notice in statistical terms because distinguishing marks are recorded.

Tattoos indicate a lack of concern for long term consequence
Tattoos could also indicate a considered desire for "something different"

Tattoos could also indicate a considered desire for "something different"

As could crime.

--- Ron.

lack of conformity

Theory you are going on about robbing stores and the law and the thread is about PSYCHOTIC KILLERS!

Theory you are going on about robbing stores and the law and the thread is about PSYCHOTIC KILLERS!


er no, I did STATE that what I was writing applied to any crime , the point being there is morality dictated by law and then there is individual morality...etc etc blah blah, not rewriting the post just suggest you re read it.
Killing doesn't make you automatically psychotic, if it did then all the soldiers responsible for deaths in Iraq are psychotic killers, oh unless it's different if someone says it's ok........which is my point., Some people don't give a shit who says what is ok.


example with regard to theft: (and this can be applied equally to killing or any other criminal act)
.

Oh and lucy, I have read entire thread and can't see any relevant contribution from you?

Unfortunately there are not always enough of the PSYCHOTIC KILLERS to go around, so the legal system has to find other ways to make up their quota.

Ron got it right in his first post, what makes them different to rest of us...erm not enough basically. We just like to think so, makes us feel safer thinking the person next to us isn't a potential killer.

Theory: ...Killing doesn't make you automatically psychotic, if it did then all the soldiers responsible for deaths in Iraq are psychotic killers

He covered that when he wrote "I am of course referring only to those killers who kill for satisfaction, not every kind". He is basically asking what makes say a serial killer different from EVERYONE ELSE. He isn't referring to crimes of passion, crimes of war nor crime for gain. There can of course be psychotic killers in the military but most members of any given military are not necessarily psychotic killers. He's speaking of the anonymous quiet guy living in the suburbs who turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Ramirez, that German cannibal with his volunteer victim or the mad frenchman who enjoyed breaking into graveyards and drank the blood of his victims. You know people who kill without remorse and without any practical cause.

NicholasM17: You might find this article interesting

http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/printerFriendly.cfm?issueID=0&articleID=1006

Its cannibal squid!

Theory: ...Killing doesn't make you automatically psychotic, if it did then all the soldiers responsible for deaths in Iraq are psychotic killers

He covered that when he wrote "I am of course referring only to those killers who kill for satisfaction, not every kind". He is basically asking what makes say a serial killer different from EVERYONE ELSE. He isn't referring to crimes of passion, crimes of war nor crime for gain. There can of course be psychotic killers in the military but most members of any given military are not necessarily psychotic killers. He's speaking of the anonymous quiet guy living in the suburbs who turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Ramirez, that German cannibal with his volunteer victim or the mad frenchman who enjoyed breaking into graveyards and drank the blood of his victims. You know people who kill without remorse and without any practical cause.

NicholasM17: You might find this article interesting

http://www.nwf.org/nationalwildlife/printerFriendly.cfm?issueID=0&articleID=1006

Its cannibal squid!

is this link your contribution to the thread post or do you have a relevant comment to make?


What makes them different, brain chemistry no doubt, there aren't enough around really to make a difference, as Ron said most killers are domestic and 100% normal. So that brings us back to 'reason' is their (alleged psychotics) reason less acceptable than your common garden 'you're in my way' killer. Most serial killers kill ebcause they like it, no diffrent really to hunter killing because he likes it. No different at all. It gives them a buzz. They do it once, they get away with it, this spurs them on to do it again.

Them liking it makes us uncomfortable but doesn't make them psychotic. Just outside the law...as I keep saying it seems.

Ron got it right in his first post, what makes them different to rest of us...erm not enough basically. We just like to think so, makes us feel safer thinking the person next to us isn't a potential killer.

Who is this Ron?

Is he smarter than me?

Kill Ron.

Ron must die, and if we can't kill him off then I am not going to talk to him anyway, so there..!!

---

Who is this Ron?

Is he smarter than me?

Kill Ron.

Ron must die, and if we can't kill him off then I am not going to talk to him anyway, so there..!!

---

this Ron

What is A Killers Mentality Like?
Much the same as anybody else.
Homicide is mostly domestic, people who knew each other, or thought they did.

--- Ron.


at least you bipassed the 'lets discuss the relevance of your post to thread post' then be asked to read link about unrelated squid! :D

sorry lucy, but you gotta laugh, you pull me up (for being off topic, although you just missed my point) then make a contribution yourself about a squid! lol ;)

this Ron
...at least you bipassed the 'lets discuss the relevance of your post to thread post' then be asked to read link about unrelated squid! :D

Oh yes, that's right, the wife wanted to kill me off.

I'd almost forgotten.

--- Ron.

Ron I was thinking more about the guys with ideas of grandeur and becoming the next Scarface. I was offered an "opportunity" once, but I bowed out. Not my style, too much risk, and I had other plans for my life.

I see it as a romantic sort of thing, the love of drama, the sort with a story to tell.
Even on the domestic front that is how it happens, people react to their own boredom and look for trouble.
I don't know that they're any more psychotic than anybody else.
More like kids in a school playground, insecure and out to impress each other, immature and insensitive to others, but sensitive to their own need for attention.

--- Ron.

Ron I was thinking more about the guys with ideas of grandeur and becoming the next Scarface. I was offered an "opportunity" once, but I bowed out. Not my style, too much risk, and I had other plans for my life.
As I've said before, gangsters kill for reputation, because reputation - as in lack of weakness - means the difference between death and survival. Some of them are no doubt psychotic; others are rational but have the psychopath's 'gift' of putting all feelings aside. They differ from lone killers, who kill because... well, they're mental.

P.S. As Ron has pointed out most killings don't fall into this category - they happen in the home, and are mainly caused by badly-burnt dinners.

or PMT

Or alcohol, or all 3 in lethal combination.

What is A Killers Mentality Like?
Much the same as anybody else.
Homicide is mostly domestic, people who knew each other, or thought they did.

--- Ron.


This observation agrees with an article I read by an evolutionary psychologist. It acknowledged that statistically most killings are domestic, and explained why from an evolutionary standpoint. I believe people respond instinctually always even though we would like to hope otherwise. Men kill when they feel as though they have nothing to lose and someone is the source of this. The "need" or urge to kill is most pronounced when the source of that feeling comes from someone who was thought to be a prized possession. Women may be driven to kill for the same reason but the reasons are not always the same or as pronounced. Particularly in the case of rape, a woman feels the urge to get back at the rapist. Violence offers one the opportunity to change like nothing else. And those who see no alternative will take the opportunity.

This observation agrees with an article I read by an evolutionary psychologist. It acknowledged that statistically most killings are domestic, and explained why from an evolutionary standpoint. I believe people respond instinctually always even though we would like to hope otherwise. Men kill when they feel as though they have nothing to lose and someone is the source of this. The "need" or urge to kill is most pronounced when the source of that feeling comes from someone who was thought to be a prized possession. Women may be driven to kill for the same reason but the reasons are not always the same or as pronounced. Particularly in the case of rape, a woman feels the urge to get back at the rapist. Violence offers one the opportunity to change like nothing else. And those who see no alternative will take the opportunity.


Not everyone values and respects life, and those that do not value and respect their own are a threat to themsleves and to others. Then there are those who view fellow humans as insignificant in much same way as most people view insects. Thus deleting a human is no more different to treading on an ant. Conscience is not innate in these things, it is learned although some do seem more predisposed to it than others, perhaps more evolved beings.

I have to teach my kids to respect each other, themsleves and other life forms, otherwise jumping on each others heads seems like fun.

It would be interesting to see if most serial killers were only children.
any research on this?

'Psychopath' is just a social construct imo. I dont think psychopaths are anymore insane or in need of medical help than someone who hunts deer on the weekends.

Psychopaths are just more consistant, they dont see any point in the 'human/rest of the animal kingdom' division that the majority of society subscribes too.
Which is not say i agree with murdering anyone for fun (animal or human) i just think people atempt to make this huge distinction between people who kill humans and people who kill animals; and i find it completely baseless.

Theory: ...Killing doesn't make you automatically psychotic, if it did then all the soldiers responsible for deaths in Iraq are psychotic killers

He covered that when he wrote "I am of course referring only to those killers who kill for satisfaction, not every kind". He is basically asking what makes say a serial killer different from EVERYONE ELSE. He isn't referring to crimes of passion, crimes of war nor crime for gain. There can of course be psychotic killers in the military but most members of any given military are not necessarily psychotic killers. He's speaking of the anonymous quiet guy living in the suburbs who turns out to be Jeffrey Dahmer, Ted Bundy, Ramirez, that German cannibal with his volunteer victim or the mad frenchman who enjoyed breaking into graveyards and drank the blood of his victims. You know people who kill without remorse and without any practical cause.
Cannibals don't fall under this category, cannibalism is a practical cause, eating. Cannibalism can be observed in nature, so it is only you ethics which label it as not a practical cause.