View Full Version : What if Israel was not around?


Axes
02-19-05, 02:17 PM
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2737&print=1

Imagine that Israel never existed. Would the economic malaise and political repression that drive angry young men to become suicide bombers vanish? Would the Palestinians have an independent state? Would the United States, freed of its burdensome ally, suddenly find itself beloved throughout the Muslim world? Wishful thinking. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains more antagonisms than it causes.

Since World War II, no state has suffered so cruel a reversal of fortunes as Israel. Admired all the way into the 1970s as the state of “those plucky Jews” who survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a climate hostile to both liberty and greenery, Israel has become the target of creeping delegitimization. The denigration comes in two guises. The first, the soft version, blames Israel first and most for whatever ails the Middle East, and for having corrupted U.S. foreign policy. It is the standard fare of editorials around the world, not to mention the sheer venom oozing from the pages of the Arab-Islamic press. The more recent hard version zeroes in on Israel’s very existence. According to this dispensation, it is Israel as such, and not its behavior, that lies at the root of troubles in the Middle East. Hence the “statocidal” conclusion that Israel’s birth, midwifed by both the United States and the Soviet Union in 1948, was a grievous mistake, grandiose and worthy as it may have been at the time.

The soft version is familiar enough. One motif is the “wagging the dog” theory. Thus, in the United States, the “Jewish lobby” and a cabal of neoconservatives have bamboozled the Bush administration into a mindless pro-Israel policy inimical to the national interest. This view attributes, as has happened so often in history, too much clout to the Jews. And behind this charge lurks a more general one—that it is somehow antidemocratic for subnational groups to throw themselves into the hurly-burly of politics when it comes to foreign policy. But let us count the ways in which subnational entities battle over the national interest: unions and corporations clamor for tariffs and tax loopholes; nongovernmental organizations agitate for humanitarian intervention; and Cuban Americans keep us from smoking cheroots from the Vuelta Abajo. In previous years, Poles militated in favor of Solidarity, African Americans against Apartheid South Africa, and Latvians against the Soviet Union. In other words, the democratic melee has never stopped at the water’s edge.

Another soft version is the “root-cause” theory in its many variations. Because the “obstinate” and “recalcitrant” Israelis are the main culprits, they must be punished and pushed back for the sake of peace. “Put pressure on Israel”; “cut economic and military aid”; “serve them notice that we will not condone their brutalities”—these have been the boilerplate homilies, indeed the obsessions, of the chattering classes and the foreign-office establishment for decades. Yet, as Sigmund Freud reminded us, obsessions tend to spread. And so there are ever more creative addenda to the well-wrought root-cause theory. Anatol Lieven of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace argues that what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians is a “tremendous obstacle to democratization because it inflames all the worst, most regressive aspects of Arab nationalism and Arab culture.” In other words, the conflict drives the pathology, and not the other way around—which is like the streetfighter explaining to the police: “It all started when this guy hit back.”


The problem with this root-cause argument is threefold: It blurs, if not reverses, cause and effect. It ignores a myriad of conflicts unrelated to Israel. And it absolves the Arabs of culpability, shifting the blame to you know whom. If one believes former U.N. weapons inspector Scott Ritter, the Arab-Islamic quest for weapons of mass destruction, and by extension the war against Iraq, are also Made in Israel. “[A]s long as Israel has nuclear weapons,” Ritter opines, “it has chosen to take a path that is inherently confrontational.…Now the Arab countries, the Muslim world, is not about to sit back and let this happen, so they will seek their own deterrent. We saw this in Iraq, not only with a nuclear deterrent but also with a biological weapons deterrent…that the Iraqis were developing to offset the Israeli nuclear superiority.”

This theory would be engaging if it did not collide with some inconvenient facts. Iraqis didn’t use their weapons of mass destruction against the Israeli usurper but against fellow Muslims during the Iran-Iraq War, and against fellow Iraqis in the poison-gas attack against Kurds in Halabja in 1988—neither of whom were brandishing any nuclear weapons. As for the Iraqi nuclear program, we now have the “Duelfer Report,” based on the debriefing of Iraqi regime loyalists, which concluded: “Iran was the pre-eminent motivator of this policy. All senior-level Iraqi officials considered Iran to be Iraq’s principal enemy in the region. The wish to balance Israel and acquire status and influence in the Arab world were also considerations, but secondary.”

Now to the hard version. Ever so subtly, a more baleful tone slips into this narrative: Israel is not merely an unruly neighbor but an unwelcome intruder. Still timidly uttered outside the Arab world, this version’s proponents in the West bestride the stage as truth-sayers who dare to defy taboo. Thus, the British writer A.N. Wilson declares that he has reluctantly come to the conclusion that Israel, through its own actions, has proven it does not have the right to exist. And, following Sept. 11, 2001, Brazilian scholar Jose Arthur Giannotti said: “Let us agree that the history of the Middle East would be entirely different without the State of Israel, which opened a wound between Islam and the West. Can you get rid of Muslim terrorism without getting rid of this wound which is the source of the frustration of potential terrorists?”

The very idea of a Jewish state is an “anachronism,” argues Tony Judt, a professor and director of the Remarque Institute at New York University. It resembles a “late-nineteenth-century separatist project” that has “no place” in this wondrous new world moving toward the teleological perfection of multiethnic and multicultural togetherness bound together by international law. The time has come to “think the unthinkable,” hence, to ditch this Jewish state for a binational one, guaranteed, of course, by international force.

So let us assume that Israel is an anachronism and a historical mistake without which the Arab-Islamic world stretching from Algeria to Egypt, from Syria to Pakistan, would be a far happier place, above all because the original sin, the establishment of Israel, never would have been committed. Then let’s move from the past to the present, pretending that we could wave a mighty magic wand, and “poof,” Israel disappears from the map.

Civilization of Clashes
Let us start the what-if procession in 1948, when Israel was born in war. Would stillbirth have nipped the Palestinian problem in the bud? Not quite. Egypt, Transjordan (now Jordan), Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon marched on Haifa and Tel Aviv not to liberate Palestine, but to grab it. The invasion was a textbook competitive power play by neighboring states intent on acquiring territory for themselves. If they had been victorious, a Palestinian state would not have emerged, and there still would have been plenty of refugees. (Recall that half the population of Kuwait fled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein’s “liberation” of that country in 1990.) Indeed, assuming that Palestinian nationalism had awakened when it did in the late 1960s and 1970s, the Palestinians might now be dispatching suicide bombers to Egypt, Syria, and elsewhere.


Let us imagine Israel had disappeared in 1967, instead of occupying the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, which were held, respectively, by Jordan’s King Hussein and Egypt’s President Gamal Abdel Nasser. Would they have relinquished their possessions to Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat and thrown in Haifa and Tel Aviv for good measure? Not likely. The two potentates, enemies in all but name, were united only by their common hatred and fear of Arafat, the founder of Fatah (the Palestine National Liberation Movement) and rightly suspected of plotting against Arab regimes. In short, the “root cause” of Palestinian statelessness would have persisted, even in Israel’s absence.

Let us finally assume, through a thought experiment, that Israel goes “poof” today. How would this development affect the political pathologies of the Middle East? Only those who think the Palestinian issue is at the core of the Middle East conflict would lightly predict a happy career for this most dysfunctional region once Israel vanishes. For there is no such thing as “the” conflict. A quick count reveals five ways in which the region’s fortunes would remain stunted—or worse:

States vs. States: Israel’s elimination from the regional balance would hardly bolster intra-Arab amity. The retraction of the colonial powers, Britain and France, in the mid-20th century left behind a bunch of young Arab states seeking to redraw the map of the region. From the very beginning, Syria laid claim to Lebanon. In 1970, only the Israeli military deterred Damascus from invading Jordan under the pretext of supporting a Palestinian uprising. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s, Nasser’s Egypt proclaimed itself the avatar of pan-Arabism, intervening in Yemen during the 1960s. Nasser’s successor, President Anwar Sadat, was embroiled in on-and-off clashes with Libya throughout the late 1970s. Syria marched into Lebanon in 1976 and then effectively annexed the country 15 years later, and Iraq launched two wars against fellow Muslim states: Iran in 1980, Kuwait in 1990. The war against Iran was the longest conventional war of the 20th century. None of these conflicts is related to the Israeli-Palestinian one. Indeed, Israel’s disappearance would only liberate military assets for use in such internal rivalries.

Believers vs. Believers: Those who think that the Middle East conflict is a “Muslim-Jewish thing” had better take a closer look at the score card: 14 years of sectarian bloodshed in Lebanon; Saddam’s campaign of extinction against the Shia in the aftermath of the first Gulf War; Syria’s massacre of 20,000 people in the Muslim Brotherhood stronghold of Hama in 1982; and terrorist violence against Egyptian Christians in the 1990s. Add to this tally intraconfessional oppression, such as in Saudi Arabia, where the fundamentalist Wahhabi sect wields the truncheon of state power to inflict its dour lifestyle on the less devout.

Ideologies vs. Ideologies: Zionism is not the only “ism” in the region, which is rife with competing ideologies. Even though the Baathist parties in Syria and Iraq sprang from the same fascist European roots, both have vied for precedence in the Middle East. Nasser wielded pan-Arabism-cum-socialism against the Arab nation-state. And both Baathists and Nasserites have opposed the monarchies, such as in Jordan. Khomeinist Iran and Wahhabite Saudi Arabia remain mortal enemies. What is the connection to the Arab-Israeli conflict? Nil, with the exception of Hamas, a terror army of the faithful once supported by Israel as a rival to the Palestine Liberation Organization and now responsible for many suicide bombings in Israel. But will Hamas disband once Israel is gone? Hardly. Hamas has bigger ambitions than eliminating the “Zionist entity.” The organization seeks nothing less than a unified Arab state under a regime of God.

Reactionary Utopia vs. Modernity: A common enmity toward Israel is the only thing that prevents Arab modernizers and traditionalists from tearing their societies apart. Fundamentalists vie against secularists and reformist Muslims for the fusion of mosque and state under the green flag of the Prophet. And a barely concealed class struggle pits a minuscule bourgeoisie and millions of unemployed young men against the power structure, usually a form of statist cronyism that controls the means of production. Far from creating tensions, Israel actually contains the antagonisms in the world around it.

Regimes vs. Peoples: The existence of Israel cannot explain the breadth and depth of the Mukhabarat states (secret police states) throughout the Middle East. With the exceptions of Jordan, Morocco, and the Gulf sheikdoms, which gingerly practice an enlightened monarchism, all Arab countries (plus Iran and Pakistan) are but variations of despotism—from the dynastic dictatorship of Syria to the authoritarianism of Egypt. Intranational strife in Algeria has killed nearly 100,000, with no letup in sight. Saddam’s victims are said to number 300,000. After the Khomeinists took power in 1979, Iran was embroiled not only in the Iran-Iraq War but also in barely contained civil unrest into the 1980s. Pakistan is an explosion waiting to happen. Ruthless suppression is the price of stability in this region.


Again, it would take a florid imagination to surmise that factoring Israel out of the Middle East equation would produce liberal democracy in the region. It might be plausible to argue that the dialectic of enmity somehow favors dictatorship in “frontline states” such as Egypt and Syria—governments that invoke the proximity of the “Zionist threat” as a pretext to suppress dissent. But how then to explain the mayhem in faraway Algeria, the bizarre cult-of-personality regime in Libya, the pious kleptocracy of Saudi Arabia, the clerical despotism of Iran, or democracy’s enduring failure to take root in Pakistan? Did Israel somehow cause the various putsches that produced the republic of fear in Iraq? If Jordan, the state sharing the longest border with Israel, can experiment with constitutional monarchy, why not Syria?

It won’t do to lay the democracy and development deficits of the Arab world on the doorstep of the Jewish state. Israel is a pretext, not a cause, and therefore its dispatch will not heal the self-inflicted wounds of the Arab-Islamic world. Nor will the mild version of “statocide,” a binational state, do the trick—not in view of the “civilization of clashes” (to borrow a term from British historian Niall Ferguson) that is the hallmark of Arab political culture. The mortal struggle between Israelis and Palestinians would simply shift from the outside to the inside.

My Enemy, Myself
Can anybody proclaim in good conscience that these dysfunctionalities of the Arab world would vanish along with Israel? Two U.N. “Arab Human Development Reports,” written by Arab authors, say no. The calamities are homemade. Stagnation and hopelessness have three root causes. The first is lack of freedom. The United Nations cites the persistence of absolute autocracies, bogus elections, judiciaries beholden to executives, and constraints on civil society. Freedom of expression and association are also sharply limited. The second root cause is lack of knowledge: Sixty-five million adults are illiterate, and some 10 million children have no schooling at all. As such, the Arab world is dropping ever further behind in scientific research and the development of information technology. Third, female participation in political and economic life is the lowest in the world. Economic growth will continue to lag as long as the potential of half the population remains largely untapped.

Will all of this right itself when that Judeo-Western insult to Arab pride finally vanishes? Will the millions of unemployed and bored young men, cannon fodder for the terrorists, vanish as well—along with one-party rule, corruption, and closed economies? This notion makes sense only if one cherishes single-cause explanations or, worse, harbors a particular animus against the Jewish state and its refusal to behave like Sweden. (Come to think of it, Sweden would not be Sweden either if it lived in the Hobbesian world of the Middle East.)

Finally, the most popular what-if issue of them all: Would the Islamic world hate the United States less if Israel vanished? Like all what-if queries, this one, too, admits only suggestive evidence. To begin, the notion that 5 million Jews are solely responsible for the rage of 1 billion or so Muslims cannot carry the weight assigned to it. Second, Arab-Islamic hatreds of the United States preceded the conquest of the West Bank and Gaza. Recall the loathing left behind by the U.S.-managed coup that restored the shah’s rule in Tehran in 1953, or the U.S. intervention in Lebanon in 1958. As soon as Britain and France left the Middle East, the United States became the dominant power and the No. 1 target. Another bit of suggestive evidence is that the fiercest (unofficial) anti-Americanism emanates from Washington’s self-styled allies in the Arab Middle East, Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Is this situation because of Israel—or because it is so convenient for these regimes to “busy giddy minds with foreign quarrels” (as Shakespeare’s Henry IV put it) to distract their populations from their dependence on the “Great Satan”?

Take the Cairo Declaration against “U.S. hegemony,” endorsed by 400 delegates from across the Middle East and the West in December 2002. The lengthy indictment mentions Palestine only peripherally. The central condemnation, uttered in profuse variation, targets the United States for monopolizing power “within the framework of capitalist globalization,” for reinstating “colonialism,” and for blocking the “emergence of forces that would shift the balance of power toward multi-polarity.” In short, Global America is responsible for all the afflictions of the Arab world, with Israel coming in a distant second.


This familiar tale has an ironic twist: One of the key signers is Nader Fergany, lead author of the 2002 U.N. Arab Human Development Report. So even those who confess to the internal failures of the Arab world end up blaming “the Other.” Given the enormity of the indictment, ditching Israel will not absolve the United States. Iran’s Khomeinists have it right, so to speak, when they denounce America as the “Great Satan” and Israel only as the “Little Satan,” a handmaiden of U.S. power. What really riles America-haters in the Middle East is Washington’s intrusion into their affairs, be it for reasons of oil, terrorism, or weapons of mass destruction. This fact is why Osama bin Laden, having attached himself to the Palestinian cause only as an afterthought, calls the Americans the new crusaders, and the Jews their imperialist stand-ins.

None of this is to argue in favor of Israel’s continued occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, nor to excuse the cruel hardship it imposes on the Palestinians, which is pernicious, even for Israel’s own soul. But as this analysis suggests, the real source of Arab angst is the West as a palpable symbol of misery and an irresistible target of what noted Middle East scholar Fouad Ajami has called “Arab rage.” The puzzle is why so many Westerners, like those who signed the Cairo Declaration, believe otherwise.

Is this anti-Semitism, as so many Jews are quick to suspect? No, but denying Israel’s legitimacy bears an uncanny resemblance to some central features of this darkest of creeds. Accordingly, the Jews are omnipotent, ubiquitous, and thus responsible for the evils of the world. Today, Israel finds itself in an analogous position, either as handmaiden or manipulator of U.S. might. The soft version sighs: “If only Israel were more reasonable…” The semihard version demands that “the United States pull the rug out from under Israel” to impose the pliancy that comes from impotence. And the hard-hard version dreams about salvation springing from Israel’s disappearance.

Why, sure—if it weren’t for that old joke from Israel’s War of Independence: While the bullets were whistling overhead and the two Jews in their foxhole were running out of rounds, one griped, “If the Brits had to give us a country not their own, why couldn’t they have given us Switzerland?” Alas, Israel is just a strip of land in the world’s most noxious neighborhood, and the cleanup hasn’t even begun.

Brian Foley
02-19-05, 03:15 PM
If Israel vanished, would anti-Americanism in the Middle East disappear with it? Don't bet on it

I know someone who will give you an argument.............

Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can't help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East.
John Sheehan, S.J , Jesuit priest

nirakar
02-19-05, 06:21 PM
The "West" has been against prosperity, democracy and unity for the Arabs. Despite Bush's rhetoric I and ex-President Jimmy Carter very much doubt that George Bush wants to see a truly independent democratic Iraq emerge. Such a state would be no friend to Israel.

Even without the West's intrigues it is possible that the Arabs would have failed to get their act together but we will never know what the Arabs would have created if they had been left to fight alone against the Turks and left alone to choose their own governments. Perhaps the Turks might have killed and ethnic cleansed millions of Arabs as they did to the Armenians when the Armenians tried to win independence without European help. Perhaps the Arabs would have been disunited and ruled by kings and dictators even if the British and French had not bothered to orchestrate the disunity of the Arab world.

Israel was a pawn in the Intrigue rather than the cause of the intrigue. Of course Arab despots benefit from Israel because the Israeli cruelty to Arabs is convenient for channeling anger that should be directed at the corrupt rule of the despots into hatred of the Israeli humiliation of Arabs. Israel is now the tail that wags the American dog, but in 1948 I think Israel was just a tail.


Since World War II, no state has suffered so cruel a reversal of fortunes as Israel. Admired all the way into the 1970s as the state of “those plucky Jews” who survived against all odds and made democracy and the desert bloom in a climate hostile to both liberty and greenery, Israel has become the target of creeping delegitimization

I don't see a great change in image for Israel. Many nations people never got caught up in celebrating the Israelis. The Arabs near Israel were bitter about the Jewish immigration into Israel and were bitter about the West's treachery towards Arab even prior to the creation of Israel.

The only change I am really aware of is that the justice seeking underdog supporting American left 20% no longer feels good about Israel. Most Americans are still strong supporters of Israel and most of the rest of the world still sees the unfairness of what happened to the Palestinians. I don't claim to know what the Portuguese, Australian, Chinese or Nigerian people felt about Israel in 1970. Maybe there was a great change in attitudes you describe did happen but I am not aware of it. Which nations populace other than the American populace ever was vehemently in support of Israel?

Axes
02-20-05, 08:24 AM
Which nations populace other than the American populace ever was vehemently in support of Israel?[/QUOTE]

Most of the western world , till after the October (Yom Kippur) 1973 war.In fact, Holland presented a request to add Israel to the EU in the late 60's. I havent had the time to read your entire messege, but I will get to it later on.

Fraggle Rocker
02-20-05, 11:13 AM
Help. This is a forum, not the Congressional Record. You're supposed to read stuff and give us a digest of what you've read, so we can leverage your familiarity with it and trust your perception to extract the points without every single one of us having to read the whole thing.

I'm interested in the subject but I'm also interested in twenty other subjects that people post about. I don't have enough time to spend fifteen minutes reading every interesting article that somebody else read.

This is why our teachers made us prepare all those blasted book reports when we were in school!

Please be kinder to us next time.

Thanks.

Axes
02-20-05, 12:10 PM
The "West" has been against prosperity, democracy and unity for the Arabs.[/B]

Hard to believe. The only way to lower the number of fanatics in the muslim world is by making their life more economically sound.


Israel was a pawn in the Intrigue rather than the cause of the intrigue. Of course Arab despots benefit from Israel because the Israeli cruelty to Arabs is convenient for channeling anger that should be directed at the corrupt rule of the despots into hatred of the Israeli humiliation of Arabs.

True but you have to remember that each arab dictator killed more arabs than israel ever did.


I don't see a great change in image for Israel.

Quite the contrary. Up until the 70's it was the "beloved" of Social-democrats world wide. It was a poor country but with a first class welfare system and a democratic goverment. It is the only place in the world where a minature version of communism actually worked and without bloodshed. Israelis, at the time, saw it their cause to help other thirld world countries by supplying them with agricultural technoligy. It was an attempt to be a "beacon to the goim" or such. Trying to be an advanced society. As a result the country was very popular in europe, Actually Israel was closer to europe until the Six day war (1967) than America. It all changed because of a number of reasons:

1: Israel stopped being the weak underdog and became an occupier by all standards, in 1967 (If its the arabs or jews fault is debatable). Since Euros love to support the underdog, sympathy moved to the Palestiniens.

2: Arab Oil embargo (1973) proved to them that the arab hand on the oil tap was much more powerfull than a small jewish state, and it was more politically sound to support it.

3: Israel getting cozy with the US in the early 70's. It antagonized many europien countries which were in a love-hate relationship with America.

4: Up to 1973 the strategic thinking of the west was that a strong Israel and weak arabs was a recipy for stability in the middle east. As long as Israel is strong it deterres arabs from attacking it.

the theory was proven wrong in 1973 when Israel came close to being anihalated by its arab neighbors.



Which nations populace other than the American populace ever was vehemently in support of Israel?[/QUOTE]

Apart from europe, most of africa had close ties with Israel due to the countries Economic aide to them. All vanished when in 1967 arab nations put pressure on them to cut ties with Israel. most did.

Lord_Phoenix
02-20-05, 01:09 PM
Man seriously why should Israel not exist? If those screwed Palestianians want to becoem suicide bombers let them become one. Why should US give in to Arab nations? Arab nations are the ones who encourage terrorism. If the world is serious about campaign against terrorism, then Palestine and other Arab nations should be first ones on the list. For example, Osama Bin Laden, he coems from Arab nations. And what about other terrorists? They all come from Arab, Islamic nations. And they fight under the "cover" of "Holy War". If I ever get a chance to kill those bastards, I will slaughter them.

Odin'Izm
02-20-05, 03:58 PM
"Man" the only reason terrorism in the Middle East started is because of western oppression on their way of life. And the phrase " osama bin laden... he coems from Arab nations" shows you are another redneck pawn who can’t literate. And the fact that all terrorists come from Arab nations is the exact bullshit the bush administration is creating in America, if I had a chance I would kill you instead and rid the world of an abnormally malleable DNA strand. Notice the shit your pulling is the same thing you would hear from a guy in Hitler’s Germany speaking about the very same Jews. If you want to trace back to holy wars: the crusades started in Europe were the first hostile religious endeavours into the Islamic world.

Here is some tips for you:

Terrorism = plural .. you cant become ONE terrorism
Osama Binladen cant come from arab nations because nations is a plural.

Sauron
02-22-05, 07:18 PM
Man seriously why should Israel not exist? If those screwed Palestianians want to becoem suicide bombers let them become one. Why should US give in to Arab nations? Arab nations are the ones who encourage terrorism. If the world is serious about campaign against terrorism, then Palestine and other Arab nations should be first ones on the list. For example, Osama Bin Laden, he coems from Arab nations. And what about other terrorists? They all come from Arab, Islamic nations. And they fight under the "cover" of "Holy War". If I ever get a chance to kill those bastards, I will slaughter them.

And people wonder why Americans are despised around the world.
:bugeye:

Lord_Phoenix
02-22-05, 08:05 PM
Yeah well I am Canadian. Odin'Izm, well it is losers like you who indirectly encourage terrorists. First of all, why the hell would you compare my post to Nazi Germany. I am not making any propaganda here. I was merely stating the truth.

Sauron
02-22-05, 08:07 PM
Yeah well I am Canadian.

So you say.

But regardless, your post is an example of what happens when people unfamiliar with history feel the uncontrollable urge to voice an opinion about it.

Odin'Izm
02-23-05, 01:29 PM
Yeah well I am Canadian. Odin'Izm, well it is losers like you who indirectly encourage terrorists. First of all, why the hell would you compare my post to Nazi Germany. I am not making any propaganda here. I was merely stating the truth.

You think its the truth but the problem with truth is its opinionated.. your stating YOUR opinion which I compared to an opinion of someone in Nazi germany about jews.. I'm the looser??? Im not the racist fuck who supports genocide.

And Ps you stater "why should the US give in to arab states?" They are not asking america to bring it on... nor are they attacking america... :bugeye:
All they want is to be left alone. maybe instead of spending billions on war with small countries bush could spend it on improving air security and generally fund his secret services so that shit like 9/11 wouldnt happen.

nirakar
02-23-05, 06:20 PM
The "West" has been against prosperity, democracy and unity for the Arabs.

Hard to believe. The only way to lower the number of fanatics in the muslim world is by making their life more economically sound..

To keep the fanatics from causing problems for us all we had to do was leave their countries alone. Western governments involved themself in Arab and Iranian politics in order to secure a larger percentage of oil profits Western corporations. I also think the West and Russia tried to shape the middle east in such a way as to make it difficult for Japan and Germany to get access to middle eastern oil in the event that WW3 resembled WW2.


True but you have to remember that each arab dictator killed more arabs than israel ever did.
If I beat my wife and say to her that she should not be mad at me because I don't beat her as bad as her Dad beat her mom should she be swayed by my argument?


Quite the contrary. Up until the 70's it was....... very popular in europe, Actually Israel was closer to europe until the Six day war (1967) than America. It all changed because of a number of reasons:

1: Israel stopped being the weak underdog and became an occupier by all standards, in 1967 (If its the arabs or jews fault is debatable). Since Euros love to support the underdog, sympathy moved to the Palestiniens.

2: Arab Oil embargo (1973) proved to them that the arab hand on the oil tap was much more powerfull than a small jewish state, and it was more politically sound to support it.

3: Israel getting cozy with the US in the early 70's. It antagonized many europien countries which were in a love-hate relationship with America.

4: Up to 1973 the strategic thinking of the west was that a strong Israel and weak arabs was a recipy for stability in the middle east. As long as Israel is strong it deterres arabs from attacking it.


the theory was proven wrong in 1973 when Israel came close to being anihalated by its arab neighbors. Apart from europe, most of africa had close ties with Israel due to the countries Economic aide to them. All vanished when in 1967 arab nations put pressure on them to cut ties with Israel. most did.

I believe you that Israel was popular. 2 and 4 contradict 1. On 3, In my opinion only (some of) the French have an irrational relationship with America. The irrationality is based on the French attachment to their own greatness. In my opinion the European left in the rest of Europe has just accurately seen the ugly side of American behavior that for the most Americans blind themself from seeing.

vslayer
02-23-05, 06:40 PM
Yeah well I am Canadian. Odin'Izm, well it is losers like you who indirectly encourage terrorists. First of all, why the hell would you compare my post to Nazi Germany. I am not making any propaganda here. I was merely stating the truth.

but who is the terrorist, whcih side are you looknig from and when did you start looking, if 2005-09-11 was the first time you evere heard of the middle east then you obviously caught on the wrong end of the cycle, that attack was payback for the oppression and economic despair caused by americans during gulf war 1.

you are looking as though america was an innocent target to the arab "terrorists", when in fact these men you call terrorists are much the same as american rebels during your war against britain; trying to break the shackles of oppression cast onto them by a foreign nation with no concern for what it might cause.

hatred of america is not restricted to the UAE, you may be shocked to find you are part of a minority of canadians who sympathise with the american aggressors.

towards
02-23-05, 08:03 PM
There are plenty enough muslim conflicts and suicide bombers in the world fighting for other causes to prove that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not the driving force. The driving force is lack of education, exploding population rates, and a culture managing to have difficulty adjusting to the modern world.

Odin'Izm
02-24-05, 01:06 PM
Actually lots of countries in the arab world have a falling level of population. mortality is high and birth rates are low. I agree about education though, but i disagree about the culture having problems with the modern world .. to phrase it properly: "the modern world is having problems with their culture"

towards
02-24-05, 03:31 PM
"Actually lots of countries in the arab world have a falling level of population", Odin'Izm

There are always exceptions, but the general rule here applies. The vast majority of the nations in the middle east have huge population growths.

http://www.worldbank.org/depweb/beyond/wren/wnrbw_03.pdf

If you look on the map, you will notice that about half of nations with the largest population growth per year is in the middle east. Libya, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, Palestine, Iran all have population growths anually over 3%. Egypt has multiplied its population by five since the 1960's. Pakistan, and Afghanistan still have population growths between 2.5-3.0% per year. Even Sudan, with all of the civil war, has a large population growth annually. The living standards of the middle east have decreased at the same time. The share of the pie has become smaller. The average amount of children is 6.1 per woman in the area, which is just below sub-saharan Africa

"but i disagree about the culture having problems with the modern world .. to phrase it properly: "the modern world is having problems with their culture" Odin'Izm

One good example of cutural issues of the middle east is the extreme differences between both womans and mens rights. To simplify things, here is an article written by Muslims about their own Pakistan.

http://www.cfr.org/pub7217/isobel_coleman/gender_disparities_economic_growth_and_islamizatio n_in_pakistan.php

"By 2001, that gap (illiterate) had inched upward to 29 points (29 percent literacy for women versus 58 percent for men)"

"Today, Pakistan's female formal labor force participation rate hovers around 15 percent."

"Women in Pakistan also have fewer higher educational opportunities. In 1997, out of 172 professional colleges, only 10 existed for women."

"Ninety-six percent of females aged 15-24 need permission to travel to a nearby health outlet. The primary reasons given for travel restrictions all relate to family reputation and family tradition."

Gender segregation is another area that makes modernists, secularists and women's groups anxious about Islamization.Enforcing restrictive dress codes and segregating higher education create more concerns, precisely because these policies reinforce traditional, conservative roles for women, particularly in rural settings where 70 percent of the population lives

This is a trend that can be repeated over and over again in the middle east. Such gender inequality is part of what leads to the population growth....

"Population growth must be slowed if Pakistan is to deliver on raising per capita GDP, yet the Council for Islamic Ideology (CII) recommends that family planning should be withdrawn, as the Council claims that it is un-Islamic and that increasing population is not a burden on the country."

"Providing Pakistan's female population with access to basic family planning services is critical"

Lack of Science and interest in technology is a direct result of culture, as well. Many young people are being driven to schools teaching theology, but very few about the sciences...

http://www.islamonline.net/english/science/2004/02/article05.shtml

"On average, Arab states spend just 0.06 per cent of their gross domestic product on research and development, compared to between 2 and 3 per cent in most Western countries "


While, of course, there are many in the middle east who gain well rounded educations, the region still lags behind the rest of the world in this area.

"to phrase it properly: "the modern world is having problems with their culture"

The belief that technology is synonymous with Western values is a growing fear in middle east culture, and there fear of the west has often times been justified. This is the point I make that middle east culture is having problems adjusting to the modern world, and by no means an attempt to make it seem inferior. Balancing technology and Islamic principles is a process that will take place over time, when it is no longer considered a "western ideal".

nirakar
02-24-05, 11:40 PM
The West did not like it when Arabs were getting interested in Pan Arab Nationalism and socialism. So the west encouraged Baath Fascism, tribalism, and Islam Fundamentalism as means to suppress Pan Arab Nationalism and Socialism. Now the west does not like those either. The west still likes monarchy, just not for themselves.

Bush may (probably accidentally) be creating a real democracy in Iraq. The West won't like that either. I bet that a free Iraq will give more money to Palestinian hard liners than Saddam gave to Palestinian hard liners. I bet that a free Iraq will be as determined not to be cheated by the global oil industry as Saddam was determined not to be cheated by the global oil industry. I bet that a free Iraq will not permit American bases to remain in Iraq after the insurgency has ended.

Undecided
02-25-05, 03:58 PM
There are plenty enough muslim conflicts and suicide bombers in the world fighting for other causes to prove that the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is not the driving force. The driving force is lack of education, exploding population rates, and a culture managing to have difficulty adjusting to the modern world.

Which doesn't explain that most of the Al Qaeda terrorists are actually from the middle class, and higher... ;)

towards
02-25-05, 08:08 PM
Not true. 9-11 terrorists were indeed from the educated. The majority of suicide runners for Hamas, Hezbollah, Kashmir, and in Chechnya are mostly young and uneducated.

Undecided
02-25-05, 08:09 PM
Did I talk about Hamas, Hezbollah, Kashmir, and in Chechnya ? To talk about those as exclusively as a Islamic thing is misrepresentative of their causes, they are nationalistic above all else, and religious secondarily. Nationalist movements have always been able to attract youth, look at the volunteer rates in WWI. Al Q is not a nationalist movement it is a true Islamist movement, the one’s you pointed too are nationalist struggles under the guise of Islam, in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya the movement is not overwhelmingly Islamic in character but nationalist. So your reasoning isn’t very convincing imo.

towards
02-25-05, 10:52 PM
"Nationalist movements have always been able to attract youth, look at the volunteer rates in WWI. ", Undecided

All the situations I speak of , Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, and Hezbollah are all separist movements based off there belief in Islam. Chechnya, and Kashmir see their indentity as Islamic, not nationalistic. Are you going to now try to claim that Muslims have a strong "nationalistic" identity? Islam is their government and their identity.

"nationalist struggles under the guise of Islam, in Palestine, Kashmir, and Chechnya the movement is not overwhelmingly Islamic in character but nationalist.", Undecided

Do you believe the suicide bombers in Palestine die for the nation? They die based on their religious beliefs. Japan had suicide bombers as well, but there was a tremendous difference. The nation was their religion, which is not the case in the Muslim world. Do you see a strong identity in Iraq based on nationalism or religious identity?

"Al Q is not a nationalist movement it is a true Islamist movement"

Actually, it did not start that way. Osama's main goal is to free Saudi Arabia of its monarchy and replace it with an Islamic government. No different then the likes of Chechnya, Kashmir, or Palestine.

Undecided
02-26-05, 01:43 PM
All the situations I speak of , Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, and Hezbollah are all separist movements based off there belief in Islam.

Bull Shit, because all these movements can trace back their nationalist history well before any Islamic involvement. The growth of Islam in these nationalist movements is a relatively modern machination. Chechnya has been fighting for its independence well before 1991, Kashmir was initially and today is still largely a secular conflict btwn two secular nations, only now recently post-80’s has it really become a religious thing.

Chechnya, and Kashmir see their indentity as Islamic, not nationalistic.

Again this is B.S because they see themselves are states firstly, and their history is largely linked to nationalist movements not Islamic. The modern conception of Islamic nationalism only has roots in the late 70’s.

Are you going to now try to claim that Muslims have a strong "nationalistic" identity?

They do in the Ummah.

Do you believe the suicide bombers in Palestine die for the nation?

Yes, otherwise there would be no need for them to die.

Japan had suicide bombers as well, but there was a tremendous difference. The nation was their religion, which is not the case in the Muslim world. Do you see a strong identity in Iraq based on nationalism or religious identity?

But in terms of the Islamic suicide bombers to them there are many reasons for doing it, one for the more Islamic ones is the Ummah, but most are killing themselves for Palestine, and for revenge.

Actually, it did not start that way. Osama's main goal is to free Saudi Arabia of its monarchy and replace it with an Islamic government. No different then the likes of Chechnya, Kashmir, or Palestine.

Yes different because in all the other three you have secular socialist movements fighting as well, what do you think the PLO is?