2001-07-14: John Fleming: The shocking menace of satellite surveillance
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Unknown to most of the world, satellites can perform astonishing and often menacing feats,
caused panic in the U.S. A spy satellite can monitor a person’’s every movement, even when the
““target”” is indoors or deep in the interior of a building or traveling rapidly down the highway in
a car, in any kind of weather (cloudy, rainy, stormy). There is no place to hide on the face of the
earth. It takes just three satellites to blanket the world with detection capacity. Besides tracking a
person’’s every action and relaying the data to a computer screen on earth, amazing powers of
satellites include reading a person’’s mind, monitoring conversations, manipulating electronic
instruments and physically assaulting someone with a laser beam
The power of those using this technology resides in the fact that most who become victims of this
assault do not realize it, if they do, they are not likely to be believed and would be unable to stop
the aggression. The US Attorney claims that the use of harmful radiation for surveillance of
residences is legal. Sending a copy of this document to your State and federal legislators asking
for an explanation to this case can help to stop this torture, can prevent that the same occurs to
you or to your loved ones, and can spare lives and immense pain and suffering.

I am concerned about civil liberties, but I don't think anyone can read my mind. From space.

I know they can see you, the Russians had a manned space observatory decades ago. Now all you need is google Earth.

This genie is out of the bottle. Anonymity will be impossible in the near future and privacy is not far behind. They'll know where you are from the nanoscopic DNA sensors placed everywhere, probably floating in the air. They'll be able to hear what you're saying through the walls. They'll probably be able to see you through the walls.

The development of this technology cannot be prevented, it's inevitable.

Life will be different.

its not a given
the presence of tech does not automatically necessitate its usage.
stand up for your rights
this erosion is far from inevitable

make us mad enough and we will shoot that shit down

/heads up nigs

its not a given. the presence of tech does not automatically necessitate its usage. stand up for your rights this erosion is far from inevitable. . . .It will be not just microscopic but nanoscopic. It will be in the wallpaper, in the pavement, floating invisibly in the air.

You will welcome this technology with a cheer because it will be marketed so cleverly that you'll accept the cost-benefit ratio. There will be nanobots in your bloodstream, killing viruses and bacteria that your white blood cells can't overpower, breaking down poisons, processing the alcohol out of your system with a single subvocal command when it's time to drive home, letting you eat everything you want and flushing the extra calories out of your system, destroying plaque buildup so you never have a heart attack, repairing injuries including self-inflicted ones like tobacco damage, rehabilitating the "normal" breakdown of tissues from aging, destroying cancer one cell at a time without anyone having to bother figuring out what causes it.. . . . make us mad enough and we will shoot that shit down/heads up pigsNot every society is as well-armed as Americans. The Brits love their nanny-state. The ultimate indignity has taken place there without even any fanfare. It took an American visitor to George Orwell's last home to count something like 150 "security" cameras trained on its various external facets. And that number only includes the ones close enough to produce an identifable photo of every person who enters and leaves and any object they are carrying. There are hundreds more at greater distances that can track the incoming and outgoing traffic.

In the USA they are already routinely fingerprinting newborn babies. I don't know of a single jurisdiction in which a private citizen needs a permit to install a videocamera pointing in absolutely any direction. Police routinely ask to see the footage from private security cameras, without even a warrant or a subpoena, and most people--YOUR NEIGHBORS--don't object.

Smile. You are and forevermore will be on Candid Camera.

Fraggle, nice image!?...Not.. here.. Google Earth is the closest thing to big brother and it is so inneffectual it makes global warming look like a warm year in a bad drought.

Ohh! shit another cloudy day, can't we come back tomorrow?

No, One Raven is doing a pass!!!, Piss AwF!

Lets see, nearly 7 billion people on Earth, moving around day and night, going into and out of buildings. Now please enlighten me as to how a few satellites can watch "everyone" and keep them in view everywhere they go? Paranoia is something that seems to be prevalent with you.

RFID...the end.

Lets see, nearly 7 billion people on Earth, moving around day and night, going into and out of buildings. Now please enlighten me as to how a few satellites can watch "everyone" and keep them in view everywhere they go? Paranoia is something that seems to be prevalent with you.What makes you think they'll use satellites? It's already difficult to walk or drive around a big city in a Western country and ever be out of range of a security camera, traffic camera, etc. Or five of them. The UK is the worst but America isn't far behind. All they need is real-time communication and archive storage and that's just a matter of a few more generations of more compact storage units and price drops.

They'll continue to get smaller until they're nanotech. Then they'll float around like dust motes.

i am kinda drunk and shit but lemme try an analogy

cops got guns and shit and can waltz in anytime they want
thats ability, potential, whatnot

we counter with amendments and rights and shit
fuckers chafe

transpose and i ask again... why is it a given?
eyeball bush's eavesdropping. did it revert back to form? in paper at least?

cos that is all that matters
lipservice is like the little engine that could
guilt=reform

Corporations will have them. Individuals will have them. Everybody will by spying on everybody. It won't necessarily be just the government. There are already more private surveillance cameras than the government has.

bah
stop it already

Civil liberties are already so eroded; I don't think that satellites or nanotech are needed. In Australia this has happened by creep - stack the Bench (judiciary), merge Church and State, change curriculum...before you know it everyone has unwittingly taken a big step to the right.

you!

It's a little known fact, but the U. S. Government now has nine federal employees at work for every resident. Yes - that's right, every taxpayer, voter, welfare recipient, drunk living under a bridge, illegal alien or tourist has a minimum of three government employees on every shift to simply monitor those spy satellites, cameras, FLIR cameras, geophone vibration detectors and so forth. Yes, they can read minds. Not only that, but they monitor all your toilet flushing and examine your body wastes as well as your garbage can contents. And they listen to every phone call you make or receive and keep track of the TV shows you watch.

All on a daily basis!

For those of you who aren't laughing yourselves silly, loosen your tinfoil hats.

It's a little known fact, but the U. S. Government now has nine federal employees at work for every resident. Yes - that's right, every taxpayer, voter, welfare recipient, drunk living under a bridge, illegal alien or tourist has a minimum of three government employees on every shift to simply monitor those spy satellites, cameras, FLIR cameras, geophone vibration detectors and so forth. Yes, they can read minds. Not only that, but they monitor all your toilet flushing and examine your body wastes as well as your garbage can contents. And they listen to every phone call you make or receive and keep track of the TV shows you watch. All on a daily basis! For those of you who aren't laughing yourselves silly, loosen your tinfoil hats.I can't imagine where you found this, but it's pure bullshit. The total number of civilian (civil service) federal employees is about three million. If you add in the contractors you might hit ten million. And they're not all sitting around eavesdropping on us. The population of the country is three hundred million. Do the math.

I can't imagine where you found this, but it's pure bullshit. The total number of civilian (civil service) federal employees is about three million. If you add in the contractors you might hit ten million. And they're not all sitting around eavesdropping on us. The population of the country is three hundred million. Do the math.

Dude, he was playing the irony/paranoia card.

2001-07-14: John Fleming: The shocking menace of satellite surveillance
From Xiando
Jump to: navigation, search
Unknown to most of the world, satellites can perform astonishing and often menacing feats,
caused panic in the U.S. A spy satellite can monitor a person’’s every movement, even when the
““target”” is indoors or deep in the interior of a building or traveling rapidly down the highway in
a car, in any kind of weather (cloudy, rainy, stormy). There is no place to hide on the face of the
earth. .

Sure, that's why it took so long to find Saddam Hussein, and why Osama bin Laden is still at large.

The terrorists just got a big boost from the Democrats who let PAA revisions to FISA expire. :eek:

Its not paranoia to say you dont like to be watched.

Its not paranoia to say your tired of the government raping you every paycheck so they can afford to watch your every move....if they wanted.

Its not paranoia to say the government has surveylance capable of keeping an eye on any which person they wanted.

Its not paranoia to say you dont like to be watched.

I don't mind being watched.

Its not paranoia to say your tired of the government raping you every paycheck so they can afford to watch your every move....if they wanted.

Using such loaded terms as 'raping' sounds like paranoia.

Its not paranoia to say the government has surveylance capable of keeping an eye on any which person they wanted.

That's not the discussion, the OP claimed powers of surveillance which are absurd. (note spelling)

I don't care if they listen to everything I say for the rest of my life if it means keeping even one American safe/alive.

I don't mind being watched.

And those who do? They obviously don't matter right. I mean hell if you find it ok everyone should find it ok too.



Using such loaded terms as 'raping' sounds like paranoia. Buzz word, flavor text whatever you want to call it. Your reaching if you think my use of the word "rape" means im paranoid....lol....cmon



That's not the discussion, the OP claimed powers of surveillance which are absurd. (note spelling)
Fair enough, simple spelling mistake.

I'll agree with some of the OP's claims of SURVEILLANCE are just as far reaching as your use of the word paranoia...BUT none the less if we are allowed google earth.....I can only imagine what the gov has.

Why does it seem some people just dont care if the government can go anywhere and do anything they want? I mean that is a frightening thought for me mainly because well....I dont conform...I will always be who I want to be and the second the government has the ability to tell me nope.....your going to "fall in line like the rest" or else...

I dont like it...

...it will be marketed so cleverly...


Orwell Rolls in His Grave (http://www.orwellrollsinhisgrave.com/interview.htm)

if this doublespeak shit aint allowed to stand in sci, why countenance it outside?
you are not helpless. keep your govt in line

I can only imagine what the gov has.


magic? alien tech?

I dont like it...


excellent starting point

Nothing to hide. Nothing to fear.

I don't care if they listen to everything I say for the rest of my life if it means keeping even one American safe/alive.Most of us do a more thoughtful job of risk management and cost-benefit analysis than that.

You could save the lives of about 20,000 Americans every year by lobbying to make a breathalyzer interlock standard equipment in every car. Do you bother doing that?

Terrorists have killed 3,000 Americans in this millennium. Drunk drivers have killed 160,000 of us. Think about your priorities.

I currently live in the Washington region, about 25 miles from the Pentagon. 9/11 was local news here but I've never met anyone who personally knows a family that lost someone on that day. The closest I can get is an officemate whose neighbor's daughter's teacher's boyfriend was killed in the Pentagon--five degrees of separation. On the other hand, three people I knew personally have been killed in drunk driving crashes--one degree of separation.

We all know drunk drivers personally. We could all probably wait for one outside his favorite bar, follow him as he drives home, and call the cops on our cellphone to have him busted. Does anybody bother? Yet we're willing to abandon our civil rights, turn our country into the world's biggest bully, piss off every one of the world's one billion Muslims, and spend trillions of dollars to track down terrorists, who are far more elusive and a far less dire threat to us.

Most of us... Terrorists have killed 3,000 Americans in this millennium.,,, Yet we're willing to abandon our civil rights, turn our country into the world's biggest bully, piss off every one of the world's one billion Muslims, and spend trillions of dollars to track down terrorists, who are far more elusive and a far less dire threat to us.

Stupid Americans who choose to drink/drive are not the same as innocent Americans killed by POS demonic muslim terrorists. The POS have killed 4,000 more in Iraq and are killing daily all over the world. Do you think we should just leave them alone? Not me. I want them destroyed. Every last one of them. :mad:

what about gun violence? thousands of people die every year as a result of gun violence ...why are you not lobbying for stricter gun laws or ban on them alltogether?

Because I support concealed carry. Everyone should have guns that knows how to use them against criminals.

Because I support concealed carry. Everyone should have guns that knows how to use them against criminals.

Terrorists have guns ;)

Terrorists have guns ;)

They prefer bombs. :(

Because I support concealed carry. Everyone should have guns that knows how to use them against criminals.


mmm
seen deathproof?
kurt fucks with the bitches non stop. the first moment of respite, he gets capped in the shoulder. his ass is grass. i love guns. remember indiana? knife to a gunfight? the great equalizer?

god bless america

babe?
wanna play with my 9mm?

Stupid Americans who choose to drink/drive are not the same as innocent Americans killed by POS demonic muslim terrorists.Huh? You think drunk drivers only kill themselves? I have a couple of "innocent American" friends who would argue that point with you. If they weren't DEAD.

Do you ever stop and think about some of these preposterous things you write and how they can hurt people? Do you ever contemplate how utterly cruel and thoughtless you are sometimes?

I listed some projects the government has been using against people in my thread 'Big Brother is Watching You' http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=74925

Though reading your mind may be out of the realm of the possible for the MOMENT they can PREDICT what a person can do using projects like the Human network analysis and behavior model building engines, Event prediction and capability development model building engines and Biologically inspired algorithms for agent control.

They also can track you with ease using the Biometric signatures of humans project and Human Identification at a Distance (HumanID) project. Human ID uses satellites but it also uses everday cc video cameras and a face recognition software developed for the big casinos to identify the unwated pros.

There are also satellites that can disrupt a person's normal brain function causing hesteria and violence in those effected.

Life will be different says Fraggle Rocker, It all ready IS most of us just don't know it yet.

So one could look at all the projects that DARPA is WILLING to tell us about and can find some really good stuff on there site the things you read make some of the things listed on this site here

http://www.surveillanceissues.com/

not so hard to belive. Though I normaly stay away from this kinda stuff this one is very close to hitting the mark.

And those who do? They obviously don't matter right. I mean hell if you find it ok everyone should find it ok too.

I would ask, why, in a public place, where people can see what you are doing, is being seen by a camera any different.

Buzz word, flavor text whatever you want to call it. Your reaching if you think my use of the word "rape" means im paranoid....lol....cmon

Sounded like anger to me, due to frustration or a feeling of oppression. I would wonder why you felt oppressed.


I'll agree with some of the OP's claims of SURVEILLANCE are just as far reaching as your use of the word paranoia...

Stating you are being watched by satellites inside your own home is paranoia. It just cannot be done. If the OP feels they are being watched, when they aren't, that is paranoia.

Its not paranoia to say you dont like to be watched.

Its not paranoia to say your tired of the government raping you every paycheck so they can afford to watch your every move....if they wanted.

Its not paranoia to say the government has surveylance capable of keeping an eye on any which person they wanted.

I never think of civil liberties that may be eroding or that the government has this fixation with me or what i do. well for one thing my freedom is pretty secure, at least as far as the government is concerned but really the only ones taking away the right of ordinary people are criminals. As a matter of fact the only tightening of laws that i have seen is due to criminal activity by someone else and not by any '1984' fantasy.

What i do see are people who for some reason refer to themselves as liberals defending criminal behavior because that is where all this starts. They want to let criminals out of jails, serve no sentence or just have have monitoring of molesters etc. then ask why is there monitoring etc. That is only an example but you find this across the board, at least in U.S that is how it is.

"Stating you are being watched by satellites inside your own home is paranoia" paranoid, yes, however they can and do with a thermographic filter.

it's foolish to think that one can make bold statments with no factual data to give there words merit.

Military Space Imagery Intelligence KH12 EO-IR—Electro-optical/Infra-red. These satellites provide full-spectrum photographic imagery, including infra-red.

Digital enhancement provides the opportunity to further sharpen and define images produced by these satellites.
KH12 (Improved Crystal) Optical sensors and electronic cameras provide real-time transmission of images to ground stations via Milstar relay satellites.

These sensors operate in visible and near infrared light; they can also detect heat sources using thermal infrared visually they can see a meter square. That allows them to see heat from a human.

The US NAVY uses this tech to locate SEAL TEAMS for extraction. By using 3D imaging they can track a human, the can not see you as one would see you in person but the can follow your movments and have a good idea of your actions.

it costs MEGA bucks to do this so it is only used as needed. Though they do have the ability to track you it is not going to be used on the averag person.

The KH12 is what the tell us that they have. The military has in the past told the average joe only about tech that is out of date and far far from what the are currently using it's not a strech to belive the same in this case.

I never think of civil liberties that may be eroding or that the government has this fixation with me or what i do. well for one thing my freedom is pretty secure, at least as far as the government is concerned but really the only ones taking away the right of ordinary people are criminals. As a matter of fact the only tightening of laws that i have seen is due to criminal activity by someone else and not by any '1984' fantasy. What i do see are people who for some reason refer to themselves as liberals defending criminal behavior because that is where all this starts. They want to let criminals out of jails, serve no sentence or just have have monitoring of molesters etc. then ask why is there monitoring etc. That is only an example but you find this across the board, at least in U.S that is how it is.The United States was founded on the principle that the power of government must be zealously curtailed or it turns into despotism. Just look at the micromanaging nitpicky laws British citizens have to put up with--and they are no safer for it, just less free. This philosophy was the original form of "liberalism," the notion that aristocrats and bureaucrats should not be allowed to run the lives of the citizens. Somewhere along the way the leftists stole the name "liberal," so the "classic liberals" in a stunning feat of linguistic ineptitude renamed themselves "libertarians."

Our country stuck with that principle of classic liberalism until the FDR administration, when he began using the Constitution for toilet paper. Since then we've been struggling to take our country back from a government that is way too big for its britches and cleverly uses every "crisis" as an excuse to take away more of our liberties. They're tapping our phones, telling us what drugs we can take, and looking over our shoulders to see how we're raising our own children. They've got back rooms full of leering civil "servants" in airports monitoring fluoroscopes that see through our wives' clothing as they go through the security lines!

Fuck the nanny state. Adhere to the Constitution. It's the Law of the Land. There is no special "emergency Constitution" for when the Bush Dynasty's little private feud with Iraq stirs up terrorism. The answer to that is to get rid of the Bush Dynasty and let the Cro-Magnons in the Middle East settle their own affairs.

WooHoo!!
Go Fraggle. I love a fired up Fraggle!....
....Sandy?...

"Stating you are being watched by satellites inside your own home is paranoia" paranoid, yes, however they can and do with a thermographic filter.

No, the IR will not penetrate the roof, so a satellite cannot see you inside a building.

thermographic does penetrate, it follows through shallow land mass and deep water for subs, IR can be blocked even on a cloudy day but IR is not used for that the military uses IR to track heat from say and ICBM not for soldier tracking via the HumanID project. These projects are outlined in detail one need just go to DARPA and look or follow links I have listed on other posts regarding this matter.

People simply seem to have stopped believing in their civil liberties or anyone else's.

2001-07-14: John Fleming: The shocking menace of satellite surveillance
From Xiando
Jump to: navigation, search
Unknown to most of the world, satellites can perform astonishing and often menacing feats,
caused panic in the U.S. A spy satellite can monitor a person’’s every movement, even when the
““target”” is indoors or deep in the interior of a building or traveling rapidly down the highway in
a car, in any kind of weather (cloudy, rainy, stormy). There is no place to hide on the face of the
earth. It takes just three satellites to blanket the world with detection capacity. Besides tracking a
person’’s every action and relaying the data to a computer screen on earth, amazing powers of
satellites include reading a person’’s mind, monitoring conversations, manipulating electronic
instruments and physically assaulting someone with a laser beam
The power of those using this technology resides in the fact that most who become victims of this
assault do not realize it, if they do, they are not likely to be believed and would be unable to stop
the aggression. The US Attorney claims that the use of harmful radiation for surveillance of
residences is legal. Sending a copy of this document to your State and federal legislators asking
for an explanation to this case can help to stop this torture, can prevent that the same occurs to
you or to your loved ones, and can spare lives and immense pain and suffering.

So you're saying that when I'm enjoying the pleasure of my own company (about seven times per day, more on weekends) that the whole country could be watching? I guess I better be more discreet...

http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/3118/fletcher28if3.jpg

It takes just three satellites to blanket the world with detection capacity.This doesn't make sense geometrically. If you can do it with three, it means that you've got 180 degrees between at least two of them, which means you could do it with just two and have 180 degrees in all directions. If two isn't enough I think you'd need at least six.

thermographic does penetrate, it follows through shallow land mass and deep water for subs, IR can be blocked even on a cloudy day but IR is not used for that the military uses IR to track heat from say and ICBM not for soldier tracking via the HumanID project. These projects are outlined in detail one need just go to DARPA and look or follow links I have listed on other posts regarding this matter.

You contradict yourself. Something as wispy as a cloud blocks IR, but the solid tiles on the roof of my house, don't? Are you talking about active, or passive detection, btw? Doesn't make much difference either way, IR would still be blocked by a solid object, just check out the refractive indices of any material for IR.

IR does not penetrate sea water very well, btw, there is too much reflection and scattering, and sea water filters light, especially longer wavelengths out very quickly. If you have ever dived, and ever cut yourself at depth, you'd know that blood appears black, because there is no red light to show it as red, so your claim of 'deep water' is just not borne out.

You contradict yourself.

Read my post again .

I said 'thermographic does penetrate, it follows through shallow land mass and deep water for subs, IR can be blocked even on a cloudy day but IR is not used for that the military uses IR to track heat from say and ICBM not for soldier tracking via the HumanID project. These projects are outlined in detail one need just go to DARPA and look or follow links I have listed on other posts regarding this matter.'

The point you said I contradict myself on is not valid because if you read I said those things about thermographics NOT IR I specificly stated what thermographics and IR are used for. I was agreeing with you on the IR point though.

Thermographic is IR.

Infrared radiation has several wavelengths but each is different. I understand they fall under the 'IR' but there is a big difference between say the spectrums used for night vision and that used for thermal imaging.

Each region does different things and has unique capabilities and limitations as i'm sure you know.

Long wavelength infrared or LWIR is the spectrum used for thermal imaging. The resolution of normal sensors is limited by the wavelength of radiation.

The Quantum Sensors Program is applying phenomenology from quantum mechanics to improve the performance by decoupling of optical wavelength and optical resolution which provides a basis for high resolution sensors. This new way is far better then even the KH12 improved crystal satellite.
http://www.astronautix.com/craft/impystal.htm


Space-Based Infrared System done by Lockheed Martin Space Systems use several satellites in geosynchronous orbit as well as fixed and mobile ground assets [known as Eagle II] to receive and process the infrared data. SBIRS is allready in use and the last phase is the low orbit satellites you can see that information here.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/Xplore/login.jsp?url=/iel4/5608/15054/00685823.pdf

High resolution satellites that will be launched over the next several years (such as Iknonos, QuickBird and OrbView) and some that have allready been launched use Quantum Dot Infrared Photodetectors and Imaging Arrays to increase there capabilites.

All these projects are in there 3rd and 4th development stages and there early versions are allready in use.

Here is a couple site that gives an idea of several programs that are in use and are coming.

http://cqd.eecs.northwestern.edu/pubs/confs.php?page=2&perpage=25

http://www.fas.org/spp/military/program/track/overview.htm


Another aspect of current 3D imaging software is that it takes information from several means satellites just being one of them with that information the software can give real life and near real time imaging.

Our technology has gone past the point that just one system is used to gather information from space. The current technology is way beyond even what it was just a few years ago and the information given to the public represents WAY out of date technology.

None of that escapes the fact that roof tiles are opaque to IR, and that satellites cannot use IR to see you inside your house, nor penetrate 'deep' into the sea.

Phlogistician, can you prove that roof tiles are all that opaque to all those wavelengths, including millimeter wavelengths?

Phlogistician, can you prove that roof tiles are all that opaque to all those wavelengths, including millimeter wavelengths?

Thermal IR, is about 1100nm. So a bit smaller than millimeter wavelengths. What's your point?

his/her question was a simple one. it requires you to back up what you say with data instead of a 'because i said so' type of answer.

You people seem to be forgetting that there are billions of people on this earth! What makes you all think that you are so special that the government is going to zoom their satellites in on YOU?

You people seem to be forgetting that there are billions of people on this earth! What makes you all think that you are so special that the government is going to zoom their satellites in on YOU?

What does the government want with any of the information that it gathers?

his/her question was a simple one. it requires you to back up what you say with data instead of a 'because i said so' type of answer.

Are you following this thread? The claim by the OP was that spy satellites can watch you inside your own home, ... that was not backed up.

You then compounded this fallacy that it can be done using thermographic IR, and didn't back that up.

Metakron then asked about millimetre wavelengths, ... something I have not mentioned. BTW, if you didn't know, Thermal IR, ie, the Thermographic part of the IR spectrum, rather than near visible, is about 0.0011mm, three orders of magnitude, or one thousand times off what Metakron is asking about. So, why should I justify him with an answer when I have made no claims about millimetre wavelengths, and thus far, neither has anybody else? It's tangential, and diversionary.

can you prove that roof tiles are all that opaque to all those wavelengths, including millimeter wavelengths?


this was a question about the roof tiles not what the wavelength was.

as for "proof" it is expected that one would say that is not right BECAUSE then give a reason, THEN back it up.

can you prove that roof tiles are all that opaque to all those wavelengths,

Hey bub, maybe you dont understand how this works. I have not made the claim that satellites can see inside houses. I have not made the claim that Thermographic IR is used to facilitate this either. That was the OP and you.

You back that stuff up, eh? You made the claim.


including millimeter wavelengths?

Like I said, I don't give a rat's ass about millimeter wavelengths, it's a diversion by Metakron. You also haven't answered whether we are talking about active, or passive detection btw.

this was a question about the roof tiles not what the wavelength was.

Clearly you don't understand refractive indices and extinction co-efficients. For any given material, these are a function of the incident wavelength. IE, some materials are opaque to some wavelengths, and transparent to others. IE radio waves will pass through materials that visible light cannot, but you can see through the mesh of a Faraday cage, but not pass a radio signal through it. Get the idea now?

Millimeter waves are in the far infra-red part of the spectrum.:D

Millimeter waves are in the far infra-red part of the spectrum.:D


Just not the part we were discussing.

I can't imagine where you found this…

Dude, he was playing the irony/paranoia card.Correctamundo! FR, you missed the significance of "For those of you who aren't laughing yourselves silly, loosen your tinfoil hats."

They're tapping our phones, telling us what drugs we can take, and looking over our shoulders to see how we're raising our own children.You realize you're talking at cross purposes, don't you?

Who taps 'our' phones? No one without a court order based on probable cause. Please don't tell me you've swallowed the snake oil about the Patriot Act allowed unlimited and universal domestic phone monitoring?

I would agree with repealing all the 'controlled substance' laws, especially regarding prescription drugs. For one thing, we could rid the populace of any number of people who simply won't read directions.

Taking over raising our children? Yeah, that's a leftist ploy from the 1920s and before in Soviet Union and European socialist nations. I think a civilian government has some responsibility to protect children from irresponsible parenting, but on balance, the parent has to get the benefit of the doubt.

They've got back rooms full of leering civil "servants" in airports monitoring fluoroscopes that see through our wives' clothing as they go through the security lines!We're back to nine government employees for every citizen, right? And the "…fluoroscopes that see through our wives' clothing…" is right out of the Tinfoil Hat Underground, man. Great stuff.

Guns. Evil, nasty guns. Evil, black plastic guns. [cue off stage rumble and sinister organ prelude]

I love the way 'guns' are blamed for human activity.

"Gun Violence" like that is meaningful - or at least any more meaningful than "Fireplace Poker Violence". Agatha Christie and Erle Stanley Garner killed off a lot of folks with fireplace pokers.

In the United States, the personal ownership of firearms is recognized as a basic human right by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. For all you non-U. S. citizens, that doesn't mean much. What is really delineates is the not so subtle distinction between 'citizen' and 'subject'. It is the guarantee the Founding Fathers made to the populace the government would never take over all power.

It's no coincidence the same people who want to rid the United States of privately owned guns are the same ones who want to destroy all the other human rights as well. But they're doing a really fine job of concealing that.

Here's another significant bit of history. Firearms in civilian hands with minimal or no restrictions supress violent crime. Every nation that removes the right of ordinary people to own firearms has a drastic rise in violent crime. Usually, the number of violent crimes committed with firearms rises dramatically as well. Except for Japan; they seem to prefer to kill each other with knives. At least as far as we know, the Japanese government is very secretive about their crime statistics. But I digress...

For those of you who 'fear' guns; how do you ever ride in a car? Whatever guns are - steel, wood, plastic - cars are simply more of the same. And cars kill far more people accidently than guns do on purpose.

But you are good subjects. Your masters tell you to fear guns because they are evil and you do. Very good. Like that's going to help you when a thug from either the government or a criminal organization comes for you.

The ability to defend oneself from harm is the keystone to all human rights. Without that chance, one has no other chances. No other freedoms. Perhaps an illusion or two. Enjoy your illusions.

Who taps 'our' phones? No one without a court order based on probable cause. Please don't tell me you've swallowed the snake oil about the Patriot Act allowed unlimited and universal domestic phone monitoring? That's not snake oil, archie - that's policy. W's been doing it for several years now.

The recent telecom immunity squabble? That's what it's about - preventing individuals like you and me from suing the telecoms for monitoring our phone calls without a warrant or probable cause. W says that immunity is necessary. Why would he say that ?

If you have a minute, consider the implications of the fact that W&Co have now had several years to monitor the phones and emails of your Congresscritters, your local attorney generals and governors, and any political type people they may care to check up on, with no record and no accountability. Do you suppose there's a connection between that and the odd tendency of Congress and local authorities to just go along with some of the crazier stuff ?

Every nation that removes the right of ordinary people to own firearms has a drastic rise in violent crime. Usually, the number of violent crimes committed with firearms rises dramatically as well.


That just isn't true. Please compare US and UK homicide rates, and factor in 'gun defense' claims, where owning a gun has supposedly prevented a crime, and you will find that US citizens are far more likely to be the victim of crime than a citizen of gun free Britain.

Stop trying to justify gun ownership. Just admit that there isn't a solution to your gun violence problem, so you are where you are, warts and all.

Hey bub, You back that stuff up, eh? You made the claim


See, that was not so hard now was it?

Though by the attitude it seems having to explain yourself stung a bit. [RIGHT BUB] LOL.

Every conversation I have seen you in has went the same way. Burden of proof is fine, but again to say "I do not belive" without a good reason that you can BACK UP also is BS.

Your conversations start off with a chip on your shoulder then grow into aggravated then into hostility when you belive someone is wrong and they oppose you. [GOD FORBID]

It seems that any explanation, other then your own, has no merit regardless of the source. So again I grow tired of this child like demeanor and again put you on the ignore list.

I do not need to be able to read your reply to know one is coming. Even though you know I have you blocked and will not read what I'm sure is a stinging reply, your ego will force you to respond.

Have fun talking to the wind..................

That's not snake oil, archie - that's policy. W's been doing it for several years now.Oh, darlin', loosen your tinfoil hat.

The only monitoring that's been loosened in terms of authorization or permission is that of international calls. Either the caller or the reciever has to be outside the U. S. In addition to that, the call has to have some connection to terrorist activity. Not criminal like drug smuggling, but terrorist activity. Anything else is illegal.

The claim the legislation allows anyone in government to unqualified and unregulated eavesdropping on domestic phone calls is pure hokum.

The recent telecom immunity squabble? That's what it's about - preventing individuals like you and me from suing the telecoms for monitoring our phone calls without a warrant or probable cause. W says that immunity is necessary. Why would he say that?The 47 or so suits currently in the court system allege improper actions on the part of various companies acting in legal cooperation with the federal government. The allegations are this is being done improperly and seek damages, not from the government for violation of civil rights, but from the companies.

If these suits had any substance, they would be directed against the government for unconstitutional violations of the Fourth Amendment (unlawful search and seizure). But they don't have any substance, so they are suing for unspecified damages in an effort to intimidate private business. By the way, win or loose, the suing attorneys get paid great gobs of money - paid for by tax collections - for their time.

If you have a minute, consider the implications of the fact that W&Co have now had several years to monitor the phones and emails of your Congresscritters, your local attorney generals and governors, and any political type people they may care to check up on, with no record and no accountability.Completely untrue and undefensible in argument. That simply has not happened except in the rather twisted minds of people with too much time on their hands. Or the anti-American parties who seem to be able to control you.

Do you suppose there's a connection between that and the odd tendency of Congress and local authorities to just go along with some of the crazier stuff ?Since it hasn't happened, the odds are against it. But what do you mean by 'crazier stuff'? Please expand on that. I really want to know.

Every nation that removes the right of ordinary people to own firearms has a drastic rise in violent crime. Usually, the number of violent crimes committed with firearms rises dramatically as well.That just isn't true. Please compare US and UK homicide rates, and factor in 'gun defense' claims, where owning a gun has supposedly prevented a crime, and you will find that US citizens are far more likely to be the victim of crime than a citizen of gun free Britain.You might read what I wrote again.
Since the UK went on their last binge of 'gun oppression' the violent crime rate in the UK has gone up rather markedly. This rise in crime also shows a greater incidence of violent crimes using firearms. In other words, the UK has more 'gun crimes' (an idiotic term if ever coined) now than before the last banning fit.

Yes, I think the US still has more incidences of firearms used over all. It amounts to just less than one-half of one percent of all firearms extant in the US. However, that does not follow for all crime. One is more likely to be physically assaulted (raped, killed, beaten or strong arm robbed) in London than in New York City. And the incidence of violent, home invasion burglaries wherein the inhabitants of the house are assaulted by the criminals is now greater per capita in the UK than in the US. At this rate, the UK will be less safe than Washington DC pretty soon.

Stop trying to justify gun ownership.Why should I stop? It's still the best solution to violent crime. In fact, arguably it's the only solution to violent crime. Having the police come around later to make notes and haul off the bodies surely doesn't work anywhere.

Just admit that there isn't a solution to your gun violence problem, so you are where you are, warts and all.Again, the structure of the statement is misdirected. The problem is not 'gun violence', any more than 'cricket bat violence' or 'petrol bomb violence' or 'whack 'em with a pint glass stolen from the local violence'; the problem is criminal activity by a finite and rather limited sub set of the populace.

That is not the sort of problem one solves by blaming an inanimate object.

In point of fact, the areas in the United States with the highest incidence of gun ownership among private individuals are the areas with the lowest crime rates. Not just violent crime, but even the stuff like vandalism, graffitti and drunken driving.

You might read what I wrote again.
Since the UK went on their last binge of 'gun oppression' the violent crime rate in the UK has gone up rather markedly. This rise in crime also shows a greater incidence of violent crimes using firearms. In other words, the UK has more 'gun crimes' (an idiotic term if ever coined) now than before the last banning fit.

That is total bullshit, for many and various reasons. One, the last 'banning fit' removed 250,000 handguns from the UK, out of a population of 60,000,000 people. To assume causality with violent crime, you'd have to establish a link that handgun ownership deterred violent crime somehow. You cannot prove causality here though, because gun owners were bound by law to keep their guns locked in a gun safe, with the ammunition in a separate locked compartment, and these guns were NEVER used for self defense, just sporting purposes.

Also, during that period, the reporting method for crime was standardised across the UK, so some crimes rates changed merely due to definitions of crimes.

On gun crime, well, again, to say that has increased due to the 'ban' is just not true, there was actually a small dip just after the ban! There has been an increase more recently, and that is due to conflicts in Europe and the east, increasing the number of guns in circulation, and inreasing the number smuggled into the UK. Even then, the total number of firearms offences is about 10,000 per year at the moment, and that includes everything, owning an illegal weapon, having a replica gun in a public place, offences with air guns, etc.

Let's compare stats, shall we, gun homicides per 100,000 people in the USA: 3.97. Gun homicides per 100,000 in the UK: 0.14. What does this tell you? That a statistics citing 'gun homicides up X%' in the UK are pretty meaningless, as one incident can seriously skew the percentages.

btw, I used to shoot. I'm not anti-gun, nor a 'gun grabber'. I just recognise that widespread ownership of firearms by an untrained, and unaccountable populace is a bad idea, and that is proven by US vs UK statistics.

Every conversation I have seen you in has went the same way. Burden of proof is fine, but again to say "I do not belive" without a good reason that you can BACK UP also is BS.


I studied physics. I worked for a place that built satellite parts, and was involved in remote sensing, and astronomical imaging. I am aware of the limitations of hardware, and more importantly, physical advantages and limitations of imaging at various wavelengths. If someone starts telling me that you can be imaged inside your own home from space, and then someone else tells me that can be done with infra red, they have to back it up with evidence, because it doesn't sit alongside all the experience I have had so far.

Your conversations start off with a chip on your shoulder then grow into aggravated then into hostility when you belive someone is wrong and they oppose you.

There is your problem. You aren't opposing me, but making claims that defy the laws the of physics. It's not personal, unless you bring your ego to the table. Questioning things as you do, is laudable, challenging physics itself, is laughable.


It seems that any explanation, other then your own, has no merit regardless of the source. So again I grow tired of this child like demeanor and again put you on the ignore list.

What explanation? You have supplied no evidence. Oh, and throwing your toys out of the pram, and putting me on ignore when you have failed to make your point is so grown up is it? It's the Internet equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying 'nyah nyah nyah I can't hear you'. If you have a point, and have evidence, make it.

I do not need to be able to read your reply to know one is coming. Even though you know I have you blocked and will not read what I'm sure is a stinging reply, your ego will force you to respond.

Have fun talking to the wind..................

I don't know if I'm blocked, and like I care anyway. You've made a claim, failed to back it up, and then circled SF on your hobby horse. Playing the little boy done wrong card doesn't help your case.