I know this is long, but it'd really help me out if you could read it all and maybe say something in reply. Thanks a lot - Fr0zEn

Hello everyone. I am new to this message board. I was searching google for religious debates and came across this site. I've been eyeballing it for a week or so, and finally decided to become a member and make a post or two.

I grew up (in portland) in a Christian family. I have a brother and a sister, both of which, as far as i am aware, claim to be Christian. If you had asked me a year and a half ago, I would have claimed the same thing. So what changed? What do I claim now? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The summer before and the entirety of my senior year of high school seemed to bring much change to my life.

I stopped going to church for two main reasons; 1) I didn't have any good friends. I was nice to everyone and people were nice to me, but no good friend that I did stuff with outside of Bible studies. 2) My parents stopped going, claiming that the church's views and teachings were too narrow-minded and literal (or at least thats the reason I gathered). I think thats around where things started to change. I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it. She just blew it off as something that everyone goes through.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?

It was after this that my Christian spirituality and faith began to fade. I never (and still haven't) admitted to not believing in (a) God, but I certainly wasn't living a Christian life. I've been pondering my quandary for many weeks now, and I sought out a board like this to perhaps offer enlightenment or something like that.

I guess I could ask (if you read all of that gargantuan 1st post) what your thoughts on my predicament are. How did you became to believe what you believe now? And what is your rational?

I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.

I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.

I went thru a similar set of events many yrs ago. I had,actually only believed in some portions of the bible but always found much of it ridiculous,especially the often cruel,"nutty" behaviour of the Old Testament God,Yahweh.
It's very patriarchial slant and treatment of women also disturbed me.
Now, when I consider the nature of the bronze age hebrews thou, it all makes perfect sense.

So, I embarked on a quest to explore other religions which I did.Paganistic beliefs had fascinated me so I took time to look into the various pantheons out there as well,hung out with pagans for awhile, read and researched and learned what I could.

Then I came across all the accounts of Near Death experiences and after reading as many as I could ,finally realized...as far as an afterlife and God,this was about as close as you can get. At least these were accounts from people all over the world and for the most part, modern day people.
The overall consensus of them seemed to confirm (what I believe anyways) is that many religions do have a "core" spiritual truth but due to humanitys' ignorance they quickly got lost in all the man created dogma by the people involved in their formation.
All the various religions and beliefs of the world are simply due to different peoples "view" on God with all the cultural habits of the people involved factored into it.

So, if NDEs' are simply the dying brains final "dream" before death as skeptics believe and we simply vanish into oblivion, I guess I will have to always keep that possibility in mind. I don't believe this to be the case thou.
It would be up to you to determine your views on this matter of course.

Anyways, have a look at this site. It could explain a lot more than what I can put here.
All the best to you!:)

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/research06.html

I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it.


Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.

And understand that Satan was never an angel, according to the Bible. Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14).

So the idea that you are better than the folks that, as you put it "take the Bible literally" is baseless, although it is self-glorifying and needs to go.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?


How can't just one be right?

What is one's final authority? That is the big question in life. One hears and reads so many things - in the end it boils down to a question of final authority.

The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy. Of course you will hear the usual litany of braying and contention with respect to this, but check it out.

A good resource to help you is:

http://www.tektonics.org/

God bless you.

The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy.

It's silly to claim it is inerrant. It's directly self-contradictory in different parts. As for prophecy, what has it predicted successfully so far?

Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.Good grief!:rolleyes:
I think you understand full well the point he was making. There are some Christian sects that take the Bible MORE literally than others.
e.g. Was the Earth created in 6 days, per the Genesis account? Some believe so. Some don't.


_Fr0zEn, welcome to the realm of rational thought and thinking for one's self. It is a scary first few steps, though. :D

Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.

I'm actually talking about more complex metaphors than that.

Let me give you an example. Revelations is a good one. First off, most Christians (the ones at this church at least) believe that Christ is going to come back and save humanity and all this crazy stuff is going to happen. They actually believe that the dead Christians will rise out of their graves and ascend into the sky to meet Jesus with trumpets sounding in the background, etc. I also never believed in a literall armageddon for that matter.

More examples in Genesis. The Garden of Eden and Adam and Eve; most Christians believe that is the actual literal truth and haven't ever dreamed of it being any other way. I believe to be more of a metaphor, rather than a physical place. Also, Genesis claims God to have created the earth in 6 days, but God lives outside the realm of time. 6 days to him can mean anything he wants it to mean. Thats how I always was able to agree with evolution, saying it was the tool by which God created man.

Anywho, thats more along the lines of what I was talking about. Not trivial stuff like that.

There are plenty of people as smart as you who have asked these same questions. Some become atheists, some agnostics, some switch religions, and some plod on despite the apparent contradictions. Those are your choices. Other religions will have the same problems. Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope. Plod on. You will see there are many practical uses for religion besides the eternal salvation of the soul.

Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope.
*************
M*W: This is your own wishful thinking, and it is a blatant lie. Quit trying to represent that which you have no clue.

[COLOR="Navy"]And understand that Satan was never an angel, according to the Bible. Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14).



Ummmm, a cherub IS an angel.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/cherub

Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope.
Yeah, I'm going to have to go with Medicine Woman on this one.

Spiritual growth is like climbing a ladder. Most of us do it and are at a certain point/wrung. We often take a step up only to take two steps down. It all depends on your quest at the time. Some keep climbing, some stop, some descend, some fall off, and some want to go even higher.

Your spiritual journey is unique. You know the right thing to do. You know the Bible and how your personal relationship with God is vital to your peace. So you are questioning things now. That's ok and to be expected.

I trust you will make the right decision for yourself. You seem like a wise person who knows the truth. :)

I came to believe what I do because I ran out of answers. I wanted more. I had everything I ever dreamed of but still had the hole in my soul without the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Only He can fill that hole. I was a Catholic. I didn't get it. Now I do. :)

I also want to say...
I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian.
yeah brainwashing is very hard to shake off,

I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull)
well were you or not,
my guess is youre same as before,you dont become worse by losing your religion,on the contrary you start to think more reasonably.
WTF is wrong with having pride anyhow?
you are supposed to have pride when you acomplish something,otherwise whats the point of doing anything..

when I had a relationship with God.
you NEVER had any fng RELATIONSHIP with any god,you just repeat the same old nonsense like all the rest of the "brainwashed ones"

But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.
believing in YOURSELF certaintly works for me,
sure I fuck up sometimes,everyone does,we are human after all,but then I have only ME to blame, no devil,god or anyone else.
now come ...join the DARK SIDE!! :D

I'm part of the growing movement that believes in reality.

Noone believes the Bible literally. That is just a straw man erected by those who are trying to discredit Bible believers. For example, when we read "apple of [one's] eye" in the Bible, does that mean an apple is literally growing out of a person's eye? Of course not.

And understand that Satan was never an angel, according to the Bible. Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:14).

So the idea that you are better than the folks that, as you put it "take the Bible literally" is baseless, although it is self-glorifying and needs to go.




How can't just one be right?

What is one's final authority? That is the big question in life. One hears and reads so many things - in the end it boils down to a question of final authority.

The Bible is unique in its inerrancy and prophecy. Of course you will hear the usual litany of braying and contention with respect to this, but check it out.

A good resource to help you is:

http://www.tektonics.org/

God bless you.
the cherubium are an order on angels

I know this is long, but it'd really help me out if you could read it all and maybe say something in reply. Thanks a lot - Fr0zEn

Hello everyone. I am new to this message board. I was searching google for religious debates and came across this site. I've been eyeballing it for a week or so, and finally decided to become a member and make a post or two.

I grew up (in portland) in a Christian family. I have a brother and a sister, both of which, as far as i am aware, claim to be Christian. If you had asked me a year and a half ago, I would have claimed the same thing. So what changed? What do I claim now? To be honest, I'm not entirely sure. The summer before and the entirety of my senior year of high school seemed to bring much change to my life.

I stopped going to church for two main reasons; 1) I didn't have any good friends. I was nice to everyone and people were nice to me, but no good friend that I did stuff with outside of Bible studies. 2) My parents stopped going, claiming that the church's views and teachings were too narrow-minded and literal (or at least thats the reason I gathered). I think thats around where things started to change. I think I got this attitude about me that I was better than the other Christians at the church because I didn't believe the Bible literally; I had this higher, more sophisticated belief in which Satan wasn't a rouge angel and heaven and hell weren't physical places where a soul goes. This self-glorifying attitude scared me when I talked to a good Christian friend about it. She just blew it off as something that everyone goes through.

Then one day after hearing Tom Cruise debate something about Scientology, I thought how silly it was to believe something so absurd. Then I put myself outside of my own shoes....and I examined my own religious beliefs. I had this thought....Ever since the dawn of mankind; of culture and civilization, there have been religions to explain the meaning of life. There are hundreds, thousands of different religions, each one believed by its members to be the one and only correct one. But how is that possible? How can just one be right?

It was after this that my Christian spirituality and faith began to fade. I never (and still haven't) admitted to not believing in (a) God, but I certainly wasn't living a Christian life. I've been pondering my quandary for many weeks now, and I sought out a board like this to perhaps offer enlightenment or something like that.

I guess I could ask (if you read all of that gargantuan 1st post) what your thoughts on my predicament are. How did you became to believe what you believe now? And what is your rational?

relax dude your a christian from what you said had been going to a conservative christian church and then your parents i guess began believe in a more liberal idea of christianity. as long as you belive in god and are a decent person i think you have nothing to worry about.

There are plenty of people as smart as you who have asked these same questions. Some become atheists, some agnostics, some switch religions, and some plod on despite the apparent contradictions. Those are your choices. Other religions will have the same problems. Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope. Plod on. You will see there are many practical uses for religion besides the eternal salvation of the soul.

what the fuck is your problem with atheists and agnostics?

I also want to say...

I feel as if I am supposed to be a Christian. I have this feeling that I was a better person (more patient, less arrogant and pridefull) when I had a relationship with God. But I can't force myself to believe something. I'm at a spiritual/religious crossroads.

Well God knows the specifices in your life and in the beliefs you where taught or that you formed.

It is sometimes necessary for people to reject what they have learnt to move away before they can turn back and have a fresh look at God.

If you are prideful and hate the love of the truth your move into atheism will be a permanent one and you will become an anti-christ like so many others in this world.

But if you are meek and you have love for the truth then you will look once again at the message of the Messiah Jesus and throw off all the baggage of religious traditions. You will then be lead to where God wants you to be.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I'm actually talking about more complex metaphors than that.

Let me give you an example. Revelations is a good one. First off, most Christians (the ones at this church at least) believe that Christ is going to come back and save humanity and all this crazy stuff is going to happen. They actually believe that the dead Christians will rise out of their graves and ascend into the sky to meet Jesus with trumpets sounding in the background, etc. I also never believed in a literall armageddon for that matter.



If there is a God then these things are as nothing to Him. I do not understand why anyone disbelieves in God because of these kinds of things? If God is God then He has the power to make these things happen.

IS it that you do not believe in God because of the things he is going to do. Or you don't believe in God so you don't believe these things can happen.

What comes first? Disbelief in God or Disbelief in His Works?

If one believes in God all these prophecies are easy to believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

_FrOzEn,

Welcome to the world of rational thought.

Keep one thing clear in your mind - it is not necessary to believe something is true if there is no support for it. It is perfectly aceptable to state/observe that there is insufficient information to make any conclusion re the supernatural and religions in all of their forms.

And to take a healthy skeptical position is NOT the same thing as asserting the opposite - i.e. that something does not exist as that can be equally irrational.

become a daoist. its a good life. you dont have to do much or believe anything. you can kind of make stuff up as you go along too.


peace.

What comes first? Disbelief in God or Disbelief in His Works?

Lol? What comes first.. your disbelief in leprechauns or your disbelief that leprechauns have a pot of gold?

:bugeye:

Silly question.

John J,

Athiests and agnostics are depressed without a sense of hope.There is nothing that says that reality is something good or has a happy outcome. Death is ugly and final - unfortunately religions attempt to make this reality look like a magical gateway to a perfect paradise – perhaps the biggest con trick humanity has ever foisted on itself.

You will see there are many practical uses for religion besides the eternal salvation of the soul.Certainly choosing to believe a fantasy is true can be a distraction that can make you happy. Can you be happy deliberately choosing to be deluded?

Sandy,

Spiritual growth is like climbing a ladder. Most of us do it and are at a certain point/wrung. We often take a step up only to take two steps down. It all depends on your quest at the time. Some keep climbing, some stop, some descend, some fall off, and some want to go even higher.And yet other’s see it quite irrelevant.

Your spiritual journey is unique.People are unique, but this particular journey is well trodden – the indoctrination as a child, the constant insistence throughout youth and from family that Christianity is correct, the intelligent questioning of the indoctrination, the search for facts, the rejection of baseless fantasies, and finally rational thought and skepticism of religious claims.

You know the right thing to do. I think the point is that he doesn’t, that is what he is searching for.

You know the Bible and how your personal relationship with God is vital to your peace. No he doesn’t, that is what the indoctrination states.

I came to believe what I do because I ran out of answers. I wanted more. I had everything I ever dreamed of but still had the hole in my soul without the personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Only He can fill that hole. I was a Catholic. I didn't get it. Now I do.But can you demonstrate anything more than you have chosen to believe that a baseless fantasy is true and that you find that fantasy more satisfying than facing reality?

John J,

There is nothing that says that reality is something good or has a happy outcome. Death is ugly and final - unfortunately religions attempt to make this reality look like a magical gateway to a perfect paradise – perhaps the biggest con trick humanity has ever foisted on itself. can you prove death is final? energy can only be transformed, never destroyed. death is only transformation. not the end of something. nothing in this universe can be observed to come to an end. only transformed into something else.

Certainly choosing to believe a fantasy is true can be a distraction that can make you happy. Can you be happy deliberately choosing to be deluded obviously some people can.

peace.

Adstar,

Well God knows the specifices in your life and in the beliefs you where taught or that you formed.Baseless assertion. No one can show that gods can exist yet let alone that one might actually exist.

It is sometimes necessary for people to reject what they have learnt to move away before they can turn back and have a fresh look at God. Or to simply acquire a rational outlook and never look back.

If you are prideful and hate the love of the truth your move into atheism will be a permanent one and you will become an anti-christ like so many others in this world.This statement is wonderfully full of religiously inspired indoctrination: A heavily biased attempt to associate religion as truth and non-belief with untruth. What would be nice is an objective search for truth and rational thought.

But if you are meek and you have love for the truth then you will look once again at the message of the Messiah Jesus and throw off all the baggage of religious traditions. You will then be lead to where God wants you to be.Looks like preaching to me. Yup it is definitely preaching. I think that’s what he doesn’t need right now.

If there is a God then these things are as nothing to Him. I do not understand why anyone disbelieves in God because of these kinds of things? If God is God then He has the power to make these things happen. Good healthy ‘IF” statements there.

IS it that you do not believe in God because of the things he is going to do. Or you don't believe in God so you don't believe these things can happen.LOL – no I think what he said was that he is beginning to realize the silliness and absurdity of religions.

What comes first? Disbelief in God or Disbelief in His Works?It should be the questioning of the entire god concept.

If one believes in God all these prophecies are easy to believe.Whether true or not, right?

Empty,

can you prove death is final? You mean like the fact that of the many billions of people who have died there is a 100% result that none have been seen again. Sounds pretty damn final to me. Or do you have some indication that something else is possible?

energy can only be transformed, never destroyed.OK.

death is only transformation. not the end of something. Nonsense, death by definition is an end; much like a lump of ice ceases to be ice when it melts into water. That lump of ice no longer exists. When a person dies and their body is burnt or rots in the ground then that person no longer exists. That energy and bio matter is a result doesn’t help that person in any way.

nothing in this universe can be observed to come to an end. only transformed into something else.And in the case of a human body this tends to be energy and bio matter. So what is your point?

obviously some people can.If you are happy believing in a fantasy as your life then good for you.

You mean like the fact that of the many billions of people who have died there is a 100% result that none have been seen again. Sounds pretty damn final to me. Or do you have some indication that something else is possible?.

so either they come back as flesh and blood to walk the earth or they dont exist?

so out of all the possible quantum possibilities in the universe. consciousness existing in another dimension to our own after death is impossible?





OK.

Nonsense, death by definition is an end; much like a lump of ice ceases to be ice when it melts into water. That lump of ice no longer exists. When a person dies and their body is burnt or rots in the ground then that person no longer exists. That energy and bio matter is a result doesn’t help that person in any way.

that lump of ice does still exist but it is transformed into another form. but those atoms still exist and are not dead. so who is saying that our conscious minds have not been inprinted into the universe somehow and stored into another fabric of existence? out of all the wierd possible outcomes of the universe its not that far fetched. and i dont believe or diss-believe anything untill i have proof its possible or impossible.

untill something is proven 100% to be impossible i dont count it out. you can feel free to though i dont mind.


And in the case of a human body this tends to be energy and bio matter. So what is your point?

my point is that energy can not be destroyed only transformed. i dont doubt that our biological bodies break down.


If you are happy believing in a fantasy as your life then good for you
i dont believe anything. i chose to stay open minded until something is proven impossible. if i say something is "possible" how is that a fantasy ? i didnt say its true i said its possible.


peace,

Frozen -- it's only normal to question ... everything. if you're a halfway intelligent person you will question and question. wonder and ponder. but what drives you in the end -- in my opinion -- will be what you desire. it won't be anyones religions or concept etc, because humans well, we have the disposition to justify our actions saying they're 'right' because we desire them.

not what any church or religion desires but what you want. if you find that in a church then it must be because u want that. if you find it in drugs, then you want that. if you find that in X, x = whatever, then u must want x.

not one human adheres perfectly to any religion or philosophy. humans bend the rules, we change them to suit our own desires. just hopefully in the end what you want is something beneficial to humanity and not destructive heh

Empty,

so either they come back as flesh and blood to walk the earth or they dont exist? When a biological entity ceases to have any biological cohesion and there are no means to restore that cohesion then that original entity will have ceased to exist.

so out of all the possible quantum possibilities in the universe. consciousness existing in another dimension to our own after death is impossible?Given one can imagine an infinite number of fantasies why pick that fantasy as having any merit over anything else?

that lump of ice does still exist but it is transformed into another form.But it is no longer a lump of ice. In the same way that a human after death is just a combination of energy and ashes or rotting meat. In both cases the original identifiable human no longer exists. If I make a screwdriver out of a piece of metal then melt the metal and make a wrench then that screwdriver will no longer exist.

The point here is that transformation results in the loss of the original item. That my dead body will be transformed into base elements and recycled is of no value to me as I once was.

but those atoms still exist and are not dead. so who is saying that our conscious minds have not been inprinted into the universe somehow and stored into another fabric of existence? Again it is one fantasy out of an infinite number and as such it has no merit. You are also suggesting another foolish fantasy that consciousness is somehow independent of the brain.

out of all the wierd possible outcomes of the universe its not that far fetched. and i dont believe or diss-believe anything untill i have proof its possible or impossible.Can you describe any such particular weirdness beyond fantasies to support that position?

untill something is proven 100% to be impossible i dont count it out. you can feel free to though i dont mind.Humans are simple biological entities – there is nothing more complex here or need to create any fantasies beyond that.

if i say something is "possible" how is that a fantasy ? i didnt say its true i said its possible.A fantasy isn’t something necessarily impossible, but simply an outrageous unsupportable speculation. The argument here would move onto the differences between possibility and probability and of course credibility.

Nonsense, death by definition is an end; much like a lump of ice ceases to be ice when it melts into water. That lump of ice no longer exists. When a person dies and their body is burnt or rots in the ground then that person no longer exists. That energy and bio matter is a result doesn’t help that person in any way.


Cris, where Empty is correct is asserting that death isn't an end to the total sum of energy that comprises a human (which is typically rapidly tranformed during docomposition after death). In theory, there is no beginning or end to energy... just periods of transformation and points of rapid change people often attribute labels of 'beginning' and 'end'. Where Empty isn't correct is his implication that this also applies to consciousness. It's an emergent phenomena of specific configurations of energy (the brain... and I am treating matter and energy as the same) and when too much difference is applied (ex. death), the emergent phenomena ceases. So while the energy is not destroyed and simply transforms, the emergent phenomena of consiousness stops (i.e. it has a real beginning and end).

If there is a God then these things are as nothing to Him. I do not understand why anyone disbelieves in God because of these kinds of things? If God is God then He has the power to make these things happen.

IS it that you do not believe in God because of the things he is going to do. Or you don't believe in God so you don't believe these things can happen.

What comes first? Disbelief in God or Disbelief in His Works?

If one believes in God all these prophecies are easy to believe.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

These things aren't the reason I have doubt. True, the Christian God could very easily do any of those things. But I believe a great deal of the Bible to be metaphors. While He could perform these feats, I never believed He actually planned to perform them.

What I said about "judgement day." Its a common Christian belief that "Christ will come." I heard a preacher (that I have a lot of respect for) once talk about all this (over dinner or whatever) and I remember him asking "Where did he go?" Christ promised his Holy Spirit to be with us always. Im not exactly sure I can explain it any better, but that was his idea.

You'll have to forgive me; im tired/ listening to the White Stripes so its hard for me to intelligently explain all this.

Frozen, you should read Caesar's Messiah.

http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Roman-Conspiracy-Invent/dp/1569754578

daves right, frozen, heres a summary. http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html

daves right, frozen, heres a summary. http://www.caesarsmessiah.com/summary.html

What fools, if you want to read tabloid tales as a goof thats one thing but to actually believe it is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity. I would not give this guy $30 for this book unless it is in the fiction section, and it was viewed for what it is - entertainment. And think of the trees used to print this thrash, couldn't he just settle for an article in the National Enquirer?

Put your faith in some guy named Joseph Atwill who writes a book over 2,000 years later and his far fetched impressions.

Fact:

If the Romans needed to bring the Jewish people into line (which is the main theme of this book) then they would have done what the Roman Empire had done to become an empire- go to war...AND they would have won, it did not cost the Romans anything to quell uprisings...SAD/

And the most amazing thing is that how many Jews converted to Christianity after the Romans played this trick on them? um, i don't know maybe five, OK maybe a few more but then..oh, forget it.

To think that this stuff is taken seriously by a segment of modern society is embarrassing. But i have come to the conclusion that mankind is in fact becoming less intellectual with the passage of time...now just more proof...i am genuinely sad for our civilization...so sad, what will the future bring? And will ignorance permeate our society like a communicable disease insidiously poisoning future generations? Only time will tell, but for now i just ask where did we go wrong? Are we witnessing the downfall of our civilization due to degeneration of human intellect? The last stand of the creative mind? When did this happen...when when when?

As i write this post i am overcome with sadness, i will not allow myself to sink into despair, my only hope is this is not a sign of natural regression, not a fact of nature, not what happens to civilizations when they 'run out of gas'. Part of me knows the answer to this but i just will not let myself believe it.

I am responding to people on the internet named Dave, Frozen and geeser, where have i gone wrong? where where where :shrug:

What do you believe....

i believe i am going to go eat rat poison

What fools

"But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Listen to your daddy John, or is what he said irrelevant to you? Thing is I've noticed you calling people fools in many posts of yours and I'd hate to see you burn for eternity because of it. Repent now while you still can.

I don't believe in HELL. Although I do understand the concept of evil and where it exists, possibly even why it exists.

What fools, if you want to read tabloid tales as a goof thats one thing but to actually believe it is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity.how is that any different to belief in the bible. I would not give this guy $30 for this book unless it is in the fiction section, and it was viewed for what it is - entertainment. And think of the trees used to print this thrash, couldn't he just settle for an article in the National Enquirer?
Put your faith in some guy named Joseph Atwill who writes a book over 2,000 years later and his far fetched impressions.
why is that any different than putting your faith in a book that is totally baseless, the bible.(think of the amount of trees that have had to die to print the bible the qu'ran the vedas etc etc.)the bible is complete fiction but it not put in the fiction section is it.

we suggested he read it, not that he believed it, he could also read about mithra, attis, dionysus, krishna, horus, and many many more, or if he so wishes he could watch this http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ it just aids him in becoming a clear thinking individual.
how do you think most atheists, become atheist, through study.

Because the Bible is a beautiful original creation, i have not fully studied it but i have read passages from it here and there. I know most of what is in it anyway, i am gifted in that way/

The book about the Romans you mention is crap. That Zeitgeist movie i will watch when i have time but it is all fantasy and speculation so it is a lot like watching paint dry.

Because the Bible is a beautiful original creation, i have not fully studied it but i have read passages from it here and there. I know most of what is in it anyway, i am gifted in that way/

The book about the Romans you mention is crap. That Zeitgeist movie i will watch when i have time but it is all fantasy and speculation so it is a lot like watching paint dry.as is reading the bible, but I did it.
you need study other information, to get a clear understanding of religion and religious books.
accepting one book as truth, and using the very same book to authenticate itself is deluded and foolish.

Frozen, you should read Caesar's Messiah.

http://www.amazon.com/Caesars-Messiah-Roman-Conspiracy-Invent/dp/1569754578
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M*W: Hi Dave, and welcome to sciforums. You're the first poster who has mentioned Caesar's Messiah (besides me). I think there is something to this. Have you read Francesco Carotta's extensive research Jesus Was Caesar: On the Julian Origin of Christianity?

Interestingly, Atwill parallel's the life of Jesus Christ and the life of Titus. In the NT there is a book of Titus. I haven't yet compared the two, but I am interested if there is any parallel there. I do believe there is a connection between Flavius Josephus and the NT. What do you think?

i believe i am going to go eat rat poison
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M*W: Don't let us stop you!

Geeser,

Before my debunking of your source book begins i need to know this-

If someone told you a small yellow bird visited them at night outside their window sill and communicated through telepathy would you consider this person prone to delusions- YES or NO?

Geeser,

Before my debunking of your source book begins i need to know this- what source book you've lost me, I've read numerous books fact and fiction, I dont have one that I use as a source so you've completely lost me!If someone told you a small yellow bird visited them at night outside their window sill and communicated through telepathy would you consider this person prone to delusions- YES or NO?if it was the very first time they told me it happened, then no, I could not say prone, but I would think they had been dreaming.
however if they had told me this story repeatedly and they totally believed it then it would be a yes, they would not only be prone to delusions or hallucinations, but could be suffering with a bipolar disorder and would need to see a shrink.

Hi M*W,

I know of the Carotta book but I haven't read it. I've almost bought it a few times but have not wanted to spend the $30 for something I already know. Also, Carotta and his supporters are very rude on the internet and dismissive of the CM thesis. They certainly haven't endeared themselves to me. Atwill is always very kind about it and says sure the writers of the Gospels borrowed freely from the life of Julius Caesar as it suited them.

Seems to me that somebody may have borrowed episodes of somebody's life is interesting but not the heart of the issue. What we really want to know is who wrote the gospels and why. Is Carotta saying that the administrators of the cult of Julius Caesar wrote the canonical gospels? Does that make any sense chronologically? I haven't thought about it much but I don't think it would. Unless the Julius Caesar cult was still being maintained in the time of Vespasian and Titus, or if the Flavians took something they had written 100 years earlier and totally subverted it for their own purposes. Anyhow what matters is that the gospels as we have them clearly commemorate Titus' Judean military campaign and Josephus (the official historian of the Flavian court, after all) tells us plainly so. Also, Jesus prophecies in precise in correct detail when and how Jeruselum will fall to Titus and Vespasian (the Father). Even if this is a later addition to the gospel (which I don't believe it was) it would still be profoundly important because it says somebody deliberately equated Jesus and God the Father with Titus and Vespasian.

What fools, if you want to read tabloid tales as a goof thats one thing but to actually believe it is a sure sign of intellectual immaturity. I would not give this guy $30 for this book unless it is in the fiction section, and it was viewed for what it is - entertainment. And think of the trees used to print this thrash, couldn't he just settle for an article in the National Enquirer?

The book is for sale at Amazon for $12 not $30. It may cost you more for shipping and tax but clearly Atwill is not getting $30.


Fact:
If the Romans needed to bring the Jewish people into line (which is the main theme of this book) then they would have done what the Roman Empire had done to become an empire- go to war...AND they would have won, it did not cost the Romans anything to quell uprisings...SAD/

Check your history, John99. The Jewish rebellion was hugely costly and embarrassing to the Romans. It was rather similar to us and say, Iraq.

Atwill discusses this issue in this interview:

http://www.rodephemet.org/atwill%20radio%2063007.mp3

And the most amazing thing is that how many Jews converted to Christianity after the Romans played this trick on them? um, i don't know maybe five, OK maybe a few more but then..oh, forget it.

How well the plan worked is irrelevant to whether it existed or not. The neocons thought they could clean up Iraq in 3 months. That this now seems laughable doesn't mean they couldn't have thought so then.


Are we witnessing the downfall of our civilization due to degeneration of human intellect?

Just the opposite of course. The obvious can no longer be suppressed, due to the decentralization of control of the media and the resulting free marketplace of ideas.

Unless you are equating civilization with Christianity. Then it is your civilization falling not mine. Yes we are about to witness the downfall of that.

As i write this post i am overcome with sadness, i will not allow myself to sink into despair, my only hope is this is not a sign of natural regression, not a fact of nature, not what happens to civilizations when they 'run out of gas'. Part of me knows the answer to this but i just will not let myself believe it.

Yes I guess part of you recognizes just from reading the reviews at amazon, that the Atwill thesis is obviously true and that you are in for some readjustment of your thought processes. I wish you luck in your journey. Try to break free man.

Hi M*W,

I know of the Carotta book but I haven't read it. I've almost bought it a few times but have not wanted to spend the $30 for something I already know. Also, Carotta and his supporters are very rude on the internet and dismissive of the CM thesis. They certainly haven't endeared themselves to me. Atwill is always very kind about it and says sure the writers of the Gospels borrowed freely from the life of Julius Caesar as it suited them.

Seems to me that somebody may have borrowed episodes of somebody's life is interesting but not the heart of the issue. What we really want to know is who wrote the gospels and why. Is Carotta saying that the administrators of the cult of Julius Caesar wrote the canonical gospels? Does that make any sense chronologically? I haven't thought about it much but I don't think it would. Unless the Julius Caesar cult was still being maintained in the time of Vespasian and Titus, or if the Flavians took something they had written 100 years earlier and totally subverted it for their own purposes. Anyhow what matters is that the gospels as we have them clearly commemorate Titus' Judean military campaign and Josephus (the official historian of the Flavian court, after all) tells us plainly so. Also, Jesus prophecies in precise in correct detail when and how Jeruselum will fall to Titus and Vespasian (the Father). Even if this is a later addition to the gospel (which I don't believe it was) it would still be profoundly important because it says somebody deliberately equated Jesus and God the Father with Titus and Vespasian.
*************
M*W: Carotta's book isn't as easy to read as Atwills. I prefer Atwill's, too. It's direct and to the point. I usually order my reference books from Amazon.com at the used book price. I can't remember how much I paid for it, but it was much less than $30. I want to read as much as I can about the Roman's writing the NT. Josephus is the likely author. However, I think there is some strong astro-theology parallels in the NT, but then the Romans were big into astrology and they saw their emperors as divine.

It's good to hear your viewpoints on this theory.

Oh man, the Romans pulled of this ingenious ruse and they were so smart that they then changed their minds???

http://www.google.com/search?q=1st+official+Roman+edict+for+persecution+ of+Christians+issued&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/kingdoms.html

Also once the Christians became such a problem to Rome they could have just said "hey we made it all up and we can prove it"

Some interesting links:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/encyclopaedia_romana/wine/leadpoisoning.html

http://killeenroos.com/1/Romefall.htm

Augustus was Caesar at the time of the birth of Christ not to mention Julius Caesar was MURDERED.

"The Senate rose in respect for his position when they saw him entering...

...That was the moment for the men to set to work. All quickly unsheathed their daggers and rushed at him. First Servilius Casca struck him with the point of the blade on the left shoulder a little above the collar-bone. He had been aiming for that, but in the excitement he missed. Caesar rose to defend himself, and in the uproar Casca shouted out in Greek to his brother. The latter heard him and drove his sword into the ribs. After a moment, Cassius made a slash at his face, and Decimus Brutus pierced him in the side. While Cassius Longinus was trying to give him another blow he missed and struck Marcus Brutus on the hand. Minucius also hit out at Caesar and hit Rubrius in the thigh. They were just like men doing battle against him."

I have studied Roman history from when i was a child, but i am using mostly links because i would be typing for a long time, and this is laughable. The map below shows Roman provinces listed at the top right and you should know see that doing this would be a logistical nightmare not to mention senseless:

http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/shepherd/roman_empire_395.jpg

Look at the Emperors of the time and you should see that anyone even suggesting such a thing as Atwill does would need to be quite dim. I would say that even suggesting such a thing to a Roman Emperor would have been a death sentence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Jewish-Roman_War

Finally check youtube for Atwill Interviews and have a good laugh, could be propaganda...

Lol? What comes first.. your disbelief in leprechauns or your disbelief that leprechauns have a pot of gold?

:bugeye:

Silly question.

I suppose my disbelief in Leprechauns. :)

These things aren't the reason I have doubt. True, the Christian God could very easily do any of those things. But I believe a great deal of the Bible to be metaphors. While He could perform these feats, I never believed He actually planned to perform them.



You'll have to forgive me; im tired/ listening to the White Stripes so its hard for me to intelligently explain all this.

Yeah i am tired also. I am suffering from the flue and i am not at my best.

Some of the bible is symbolism of course. But much of it i believe is actual happenings both past and future. You say planned to perform them? I prefer to Believe He always knew He was going to need to preform them but that he did not plan to perform them. You are right though it is very hard to explain these things even while you’re in good health and rested.

What I said about "judgement day." Its a common Christian belief that "Christ will come." I heard a preacher (that I have a lot of respect for) once talk about all this (over dinner or whatever) and I remember him asking "Where did he go?" Christ promised his Holy Spirit to be with us always. Im not exactly sure I can explain it any better, but that was his idea.

Yes judgement day is my belief also, But the final judgement will not happen upon the return of the Messiah Jesus. But 1000 years after the return of Jesus.

No to the question "Where did he go?"

Now i cannot be sure from the detail of your story as you say you where tired when you put this down. But i have heard some people say Where did the Holy Spirit go to. Well the truth is that people left the love of the truth (That being the truth taught by Jesus) and when they do the peace and wisdom and guidance of the Holy Spirit departs from them. Then they are left with no guidance and they walk down the road of religious traditions that seek to justify their rebellion against the words of Jesus.

So the Holy Spirit withdraws from those who reject the Word of God. As Jesus says:

John 6
63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

I say become Agnostic.

Keep searching for proof/disproof in the name of science you won't find much and will proberly move further away from religion. However, keep in the back of your mind that there may be a God.

John99, thanks for posting the links. I looked at all of them and especially enjoyed the lead poisoning one. Have you seen the recent media stories based on a study by an economist that links crime rates falling to removal of lenvironmental lead?

Of course this has nothing to do with Atwill's thesis that I can see. Not sure if you meant it to be. The other links seem superfluous to me as well.

The Flavians were long gone by the time of Diocletian. Regardless of origin, any cult that challenged the power structure would have to be at risk of persecution.

The wikipedia article on the Jewish rebellion describes three expensive-sounding rebellions of which the one in the late 60s to 70s was only the first. This certainly does not support your previous contention that the Romans could effortlessly crush the Jews at will.

The real reason to accept the Atwill hypothesis is not circumstantial. Rather, it's because they left clues in the writings of Josephus and parallels with the New Testament. I am under an impression that these parallels are widely accepted but misinterpreted as that the writers of the canonical gospels borrowed freely from Josephus. This hypothesis fails however to account for the strange nature of Josephus' history itself, as evidenced for example most profoundly in Josephus' story of the cannibal Mary of the seige of Jeruselum.

John99, thanks for posting the links. I looked at all of them and especially enjoyed the lead poisoning one. Have you seen the recent media stories based on a study by an economist that links crime rates falling to removal of lenvironmental lead?

Of course this has nothing to do with Atwill's thesis that I can see. Not sure if you meant it to be. The other links seem superfluous to me as well.

The Flavians were long gone by the time of Diocletian. Regardless of origin, any cult that challenged the power structure would have to be at risk of persecution.

The wikipedia article on the Jewish rebellion describes three expensive-sounding rebellions of which the one in the late 60s to 70s was only the first. This certainly does not support your previous contention that the Romans could effortlessly crush the Jews at will.

The real reason to accept the Atwill hypothesis is not circumstantial. Rather, it's because they left clues in the writings of Josephus and parallels with the New Testament. I am under an impression that these parallels are widely accepted but misinterpreted as that the writers of the canonical gospels borrowed freely from Josephus. This hypothesis fails however to account for the strange nature of Josephus' history itself, as evidenced for example most profoundly in Josephus' story of the cannibal Mary of the seige of Jeruselum.

I dont know what to tell you. Doesn't look like anyone is taking this book seriously and you want to force me to? I get info from credible sources like BBC calibre researchers not any book that comes along that will soon be forgotten.

Six months ago every one was ******** their pants over 'finding where Jesus was buried', remember that?

People read the Bible and can dream up whatever they like, some see codes - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code

But go right ahead and believe all the stories you want to.

I dont know what to tell you. Doesn't look like anyone is taking this book seriously and you want to force me to?

Suit yourself by all means. You could be right - maybe it will all blow over and be forgotten.

Of course I'm doing my small part working against that. Atwill's thesis seems obviously true to me, and profoundly important. If and when it hits critical mass - watch the fun.

There's said to be a movie in the works, although it appears to be overdue to start production. Also, a German-language edition coming out in the fall, according to Atwill on his website. He also says it is by a more major publisher who will actually promote the book as opposed to Ulysses who have done nothing.

I have a feeling this cat won't go back in the bag so easily. Christianity has made more than a few enemies over the years, and now it just may be payback time.

Sounds like a plan. Prophecies from the bargain bin.

These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.

These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.
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M*W: There is more logic and potential truth in Atwill's theory than in the story of Jesus married Mary Magdalene and sired the Merovingians (the Vine of Mary). I researched that theory in serious depth, but now I realize it cannot be true. That 'theory' came about from ancient astro-theological myth, even though a plethora of authors have written about it with movies that followed. My opinion is that it doesn't really matter what christians may think about these theories. Those who matter are the ones doing the comparative research as well as those who care to learn from it.

These are the people who are making the movie

http://www.fofilm.com/php/index.php

The Caesar/Messiah poster comes around if you wait long enough. Or you can find it if you click on "Fund B".

It's not too late to invest, John99. You're in a good position here to hedge your bet. If it takes off and/or turns out to be true at least you can count your dough. See, for me it is not so good because it would be doubling my current position.

1. I have neither the disire or need for your dirty paper, nor would i "invest" in a project that has not begun production.

2. Dont be [DELETED].