What logical conclusions are to be drawn from the actions of the other sentient animals in regard to what they think of us?

Elephants;
Link (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/s827791.htm)

I think its clear that elephants see us as villainous. An overpowering unstoppable evil force, an unpoliced evil police if you will.
There are many stories like this that indicate elephants do not approve of our dictatorship.
They hide the tusks of their loved ones in bushes etc, they seem to be onto us, they seem to know what we are about and its rather apparent that they are not impressed.
Elephants kill more people than anything else, and it is always purely out of anger over the way we treat them. Not always because its physically cruel, but merely degrading and insulting.
They disagree with everything we stand for.
In general that is, elephants are very much individuals and domesticated elephants are often quite fond of their owners, but it seems wild elephant culture doesn't think too highly of us.

On the other end of the scale...

Killer whales;
Link (http://www.uq.net.au/~zzlhiess/oldtom.htm)

There are no reports of wild killer whales attacking humans ever.
This is strange because, besides us, they have the most varied diet on the planet. There is little else they have not been reported to have killed, sting rays, polar bears, moose and blue whales etc the list goes on forever, and nearly all of these animals would be far harder to kill than a measly human.
So why haven't they even tried to taste us?

Killer whales treat hunting like a religious experience, they celebrate succesful hunts with ritualistic performances. And continuously display their confidence during hunts by mocking their prey and toying with it. Its like they are trying to show off their hunting prowess to "impress the gods", much like humans "be nice" to "impress the gods".
That really is the impression one gets.
Perhaps killer whales became more successful after evolution instilled into them a sense of admiration for hunting, to the extent they worship it as an artform.
They certainly behave that way.

"fascinating, but what does this have to do with people?"
Well the fact is they respect humans a whole heap, and seemingly nothing else.
This makes sense when you consider what they are about.
In a culture where cruelty, dominance and hunting prowess is reveered, respected and worshipped, perhaps the natural "golden calf" is the homo-sapien.

They have seen what we are capable of, they have seen us hunt and hunted side by side with us, they have felt what we are capable of, the us military used to use them as target practice, word gets around killer whale communities and some individuals alive today were alive when we ran the seas red on a daily basis, they know all about what we(or I at least) consider our dark side.
But do they hold a grudge or think less of us?
No, they think we're great. We're everything they want to be; ruthless, cold, capable, unrivalled, killing machines.
I think they see us as a role model, our species is jesus to killer whales.
A jesus that kicked ass and rather than being crucified took on the roman army single handedly with a harpoon.

Conclusion?
Both killer whales and elephants seem to be noticing the same thing about us, our ruthlessness and cold hearts, they both see we are unmatched unstoppable predators, but they each have their different views on this, one species is disgusted, the other is filled with respect and reverence.

Whats ironic is, the traits of humanity that are most apparent to the other intelligent organisms inhabitting this planet, are the traits we try to deny we have, the opposite of how we would like to think of ourselves.

(Warning: preceeding post may contain generalisations)

I hope you continue to do more research into the intelligence of animals, it's a very interesting subject.

I was wondering whether you've read or researched why whales beach themselves in large numbers? From the little I've read about whales they seem to be highly intelligent and the fact that they seem to commit mass suicide is disturbing.

Keep up the informative posts.
Thanks
Teri
:)

Most animals would rather not think of humans whatsoever because humans are beneath most other animals intelligance levels for humans pollute, kill for sport, try to manipulate nature instead of working with it, murder others for no reasons, torture others, make diseases, and on and on.

Originally posted by Teri
I hope you continue to do more research into the intelligence of animals, it's a very interesting subject.

I was wondering whether you've read or researched why whales beach themselves in large numbers? From the little I've read about whales they seem to be highly intelligent and the fact that they seem to commit mass suicide is disturbing.

Keep up the informative posts.
Thanks
Teri
:)


Look to the worlds unchecked Navies for the answer to that one. Submarine and other sonar produced by the russians and the US takes up 2/3 of the earths waters. Do a quick search on the internet to find out more.

It seriously is like a human drowning him or her self. WHY??????




Oh and oh the way other animals view us. Yeh i agree. Point a gun at your dog you might see it knows what's going on, it will become scared. I've done it with a toy one to my dog, strange huh?

But you've got to wonder if it's just instinct, like me not liking spiders. After all we hunted elephants and woolly mammoths for millenia, that's got to leave some instinctive need for revenge....
i dunno....

Do you have anything more to say on the topic?
I'm interested about the killer whales, but on one hand, there is NOTHING in the ocean which intentionally tries to eat us. NOTHING, or is there?
any other animals????

Guess Dr Lou Natic doesn't care that much after all....

I don't have much info on the subject, but I'm interested. Cosmictraveler made a true remark.

I don't think that lack of human kills by killer whales could be attributed to the notion that they respect us or anything of the sort....I just think that they are unfamiliar with us. We might also have offensive taste, smell that doesn't jive with their seefood diet. Try throwing an elephant or a lion in the ocean and see if the killer whales would approach it. I think probably not specially it if's alive, because it's unfamiliar territory that needs much care when handling.

I don't think that animals think about others that much including but not limited to humans. We never see a fox caring for abandoned chicken eggs, or a lion adopting bear cubbs after their mama died. On the other hand, we see both spectrum of humans, those that care and try to protect animals at all costs and those that join the animals or even stoop below in their disregard for others.

Hahahaha
I was so certain when I saw "jolly rodger" as the last poster in this thread that I was going to read "this is dumb you guys, you guys are loser dumb guys"
hahaha
But you seem to have actually addressed this topic seriously, sorry for selling you short rodger;)

Most animals that can eat humans will if they get the chance, the "mistaken identity" theory for sharks has been showed to be rather flawed.
Sharks will regurgitate food that is of little nutritional worth if they have better options, so if they aren't hungry they won't bother eating humans, but if they are they will and do, humans are pokey and dangerous and have the ability to poke sharks in the eyes and often do so sharks will bite them and wait for them to bleed to death as they would other dangerous animals, but humans will often get rescued in this time, and then we will assume the shark was merely giving the human a "bite test", but thats not true. It was giving the human a cautious bite and planned on eating that human once it died.
Sharks will feed on humans and will actively hunt them if they are hungry enough.

The thing is there is no case of wild killer whales even attacking humans, everything has attacked us at least a few times, except them. This is quite strange and we need to wonder why that is.
There aren't many things in the ocean that feed on mammals, so not many things are interested in killing and eating us, but killer whales do eat mammals quite a bit, all sorts of mammals.
There is no obvious reason as to why they don't hunt us.
Any theories to rival my (admittedly outlandish) "sacred animal" theory? I'm willing to accept any ideas.

Whales beaching themselves is troubling, I'd assume there would be a wide range of reasons. Some are obvious, autopsies will reveal the whales had exploded ear drums caused by navy sonar as rodger mentioned, I guarantee most of us would try to end it any way possible if we experienced the same kind of unsoothable pain.
There are other instances such as natural diseases infecting entire pods, weakness in the ocean is detected quickly and perhaps these whales would prefer to die by way of suffocation under their own weight than by being eaten alive by sharks, it would atleast end the stressful worrying.
The perplexing cases are those of perfectly healthy whales, and this just indicates how complex their lives must be. It is not always anatomically apparent why humans committ suicide, but we can communicate with those that failed and we find out the reasons are more complex.
I can't see why it would be different for whales, suicide for personal reasons is not something they could not grasp, although I assume their reasons would be a little more serious than some of the ones we come up with, one area in which we actually are unique is our cushy lifestyle and this tends to make us think trivial matters are catastrophe's.

Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
What logical conclusions are to be drawn from the actions of the other sentient animals in regard to what they think of us?

Conclusion?
Both killer whales and elephants seem to be noticing the same thing about us, our ruthlessness and cold hearts, they both see we are unmatched unstoppable predators, but they each have their different views on this, one species is disgusted, the other is filled with respect and reverence.

Whats ironic is, the traits of humanity that are most apparent to the other intelligent organisms inhabitting this planet, are the traits we try to deny we have, the opposite of how we would like to think of ourselves.

(Warning: preceeding post may contain generalisations)

What sentient animals think of us? They are animals, not people. Is an ant or termite sentient, because it creates a society with a system of caring for the young? They don't think, thinking implies the ability to reason. Cool trick by the elephants, it does mean they are sentient or that it was a rescue.

Elephants and killer whales see us as unstoppable predators. We are predators, we are at the top of the food chain, most of the time. We eat meat, we use parts of animals. Sometimes lions will back away from people, bears will avoid people, because they are alien to their environment. Have you ever seen a killer whale rip into its prey? I am a conservationist, but to equate animals to people is just silly.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Flores
I don't have much info on the subject, but I'm interested. Cosmictraveler made a true remark.

I don't think that lack of human kills by killer whales could be attributed to the notion that they respect us or anything of the sort....I just think that they are unfamiliar with us. We might also have offensive taste, smell that doesn't jive with their seefood diet. Try throwing an elephant or a lion in the ocean and see if the killer whales would approach it. I think probably not specially it if's alive, because it's unfamiliar territory that needs much care when handling.
I think so, all sorts of animals that wandered into the water have ended up prey for killer whales, from bears to horses. Different killer whales tend to have different tastes that they prefer but this doesn't stop them from killing things for fun, which is arguably what they are most famous for.

I don't think that animals think about others that much including but not limited to humans. We never see a fox caring for abandoned chicken eggs, or a lion adopting bear cubbs after their mama died. On the other hand, we see both spectrum of humans, those that care and try to protect animals at all costs and those that join the animals or even stoop below in their disregard for others.
Wolves have adopted bear cubs, and a herd of buffaloes has adopted an elephant that ended up being their leader and protector and still is to this day, and there are many more cases, not that I necessarrily see the relevence to what I am talking about here.
Animals don't need to embrace something to recognise its existence.
They do have their own trialling lives to think about and they don't focus on other animals to any extreme extent like some people do, but I'd say its got more to do with the fact they don't have the time.
Studies have shown that dolphins(including killer whales) have a different "word"(tone- or series- of squeaks and whistles) for each of the animals in their environment, so they are not only recognising them but talking about them in their spare time:)

I find it interesting that as land animals, our fellow land animals who are capabale will kill us if they have the chance and are hungry-- Lions, tigers, etc. This is interesting because they have had more contact with us as a species throughout our history that those animals currently in the sea who can inflict the same damage.

I think it is because they realize that without weapons, especially fire--which is what they fear, not us, we are practically as defenseless as antelopes. I think Whale behaviour towards us maybe due to unfamiliarity. Afterall we are pathetic in water and pose no real threat to any animal of the sea. But hey, no you never know. Interesting.

Nice thread Dr Lou! :)

I think this is incredible; 'The matriarch of a herd of elephants in South Africa has opened a gate with her trunk to free antelopes being held at a camp', though not completely unsurprising. Animals obviously have a greater intelligence than they are credited with.

Having said this, however unlikely it might seem, there is nothing to say that animals are thinking beings, but rather they could be 'God' in animal form, but like I said, it could be considered unlikely.

We spend BILLIONS to disect, torture, maime, starve, and experiment on animals but do little to try to communicate with them. What if the animals were from other planets, that is aliens sort of. Would we then do the same things to them if we found out they were aliens after all and it is WE who couldn't understand them?

What happens when we go to another planet and find creatures we cannot communicate with? Are we going to treat them as we do the animals here because they can't speak our language?

Very good point Cosmictraveler! :)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by truth
What sentient animals think of us? They are animals, not people.
Oh, sorry, i thought all animals were homo-sapiens, my bad.

Is an ant or termite sentient, because it creates a society with a system of caring for the young? They don't think, thinking implies the ability to reason.
Oh yeah, I forgot about those extensive studies proving only humans could reason.

Elephants and killer whales see us as unstoppable predators. We are predators, we are at the top of the food chain, most of the time. We eat meat, we use parts of animals.
Really? Gross, I had no idea.

Have you ever seen a killer whale rip into its prey?
Yeah

I am a conservationist, but to equate animals to people is just silly.
Oh, really? thanks for the heads up, boy is my face red:o


You can't like, delete other peoples posts can you?:(
Oh I'm just kidding....

I'd like to look at how dolphins view us, and apes. They seem to see the good in humans. Perhaps because how closely related we are.

Dr Lou Natic ,


They hide the tusks of their loved ones in bushes etc, they seem to be onto us, they seem to know what we are about and its rather apparent that they are not impressed.
Probably, we are one of the few natural predators of elephants. I can imagine my African ancestors running after them with crude weaponary. Given enough time, a species learns to be either evasive or aggresive towards another species hunting it. An elephant seems to have a similar reaction towards humans, as a group of wild beasts can react to a hunting lion. They face the predator to make the predator know that they have seen them, and if they feel that they have to protect their siblings, they can even make a charge for it.

Elephants kill more people than anything else, and it is always purely out of anger over the way we treat them.
I do not see this as a surprise. We get in their way, they see us as a threat and deal with it accordingly. They do not need to have a deeper understanding of our actions to react in the way they do.

Not always because its physically cruel, but merely degrading and insulting.
How do you insult an elephant?

They disagree with everything we stand for.
How do they know what we stand for? Again, they react in a natural way. How can you proof that they actually know what we stand for? Do they have any insight in human cultures?

In general that is, elephants are very much individuals and domesticated elephants are often quite fond of their owners, but it seems wild elephant culture doesn't think too highly of us.
Wild elephants only know humans as possible predators. As said above, they are perhaps naturally inclined to take an opposing stand when confronted with a possible threat as is not uncommon with larger mammals.

There are no reports of wild killer whales attacking humans ever.
Which, of course, is not a guarantee that it did not happen.

There is little else they have not been reported to have killed, sting rays, polar bears, moose and blue whales etc the list goes on forever, and nearly all of these animals would be far harder to kill than a measly human.
So why haven't they even tried to taste us?
Our habitat is not that near to a killer whale, we have less encounters with them than, say, lions. Moreover, killer whales perhaps stick to eating things they have had some previous experiences with. Who knows?

Killer whales treat hunting like a religious experience, they celebrate succesful hunts with ritualistic performances. And continuously display their confidence during hunts by mocking their prey and toying with it.
My cat does exactly the same. Would you attribute religious characteristics to him too?

Its like they are trying to show off their hunting prowess to "impress the gods", much like humans "be nice" to "impress the gods".
What may look in your eyes as "impressing the gods", may in reality be "playing around with prey to impress the other sex". How do you know the difference?

They have seen what we are capable of, they have seen us hunt and hunted side by side with us, they have felt what we are capable of, the us military used to use them as target practice, word gets around killer whale communities and some individuals alive today were alive when we ran the seas red on a daily basis, they know all about what we(or I at least) consider our dark side.
How does word get around in killer whale communities and what do they speak about? Did I miss some news that we deciphered their language? I wouldn't deny that their level of communication is probably quite complex, but as far as I know we have no idea if different packs have different languages, if they speak about experiences with humans or just exchange hunting formations and exclamations of love.

No, they think we're great. We're everything they want to be; ruthless, cold, capable, unrivalled, killing machines.
I have no idea what the thoughts of a killer whale are. Probably, if they do have a notion about us, they would regard us as predators but i certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that they feel admiration for our predatorial qualities.

Conclusion?
Both killer whales and elephants seem to be noticing the same thing about us, our ruthlessness and cold hearts, they both see we are unmatched unstoppable predators, but they each have their different views on this, one species is disgusted, the other is filled with respect and reverence.
I'm certainly not sure that both species see us unstoppable predators. They have no idea of our true capabilities. E.g. if a whale is harpooned, it may very well think it was this evil big grey beast that makes such a noise that is attacking him, rather than that it realises it is actually a human pushing the button on that big grey thing. In the case of elephants, i do think that they regard us as their predator in the manner a gazelle sees a panther as their predator. I've not seen anything indicating that elephants have a deeper knowledge of human behaviour. But, i must admit, i have not followed the links you have supplied yet.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mouse
Probably, we are one of the few natural predators of elephants. I can imagine my African ancestors running after them with crude weaponary. Given enough time, a species learns to be either evasive or aggresive towards another species hunting it. An elephant seems to have a similar reaction towards humans, as a group of wild beasts can react to a hunting lion. They face the predator to make the predator know that they have seen them, and if they feel that they have to protect their siblings, they can even make a charge for it.
Agreed....


I do not see this as a surprise. We get in their way, they see us as a threat and deal with it accordingly. They do not need to have a deeper understanding of our actions to react in the way they do.
It wouldn't be required, but they do happen to have a deeper understanding than you give them credit for, countless instances indicate this to the extent that saying otherwise is far more unsupported and presumptuous.


How do you insult an elephant?
Make it do work for you, or tricks, keep it tied up.
I've seen a guy hitting an elephant with a stick repeatedly, not hard, in order to keep it moving. The elephant hit the man in the face with its trunk and knocked him over as if to say "I get it moron". He didn't try to kill the man, the man assumed he needed to hit the elephant to make it do a task and the elephant proved straight after he knew how to do it with out the physical "encouragement", the impression one got from watching this was the elephant was insulted that the man thought so little of the elephants understanding of the situation.
It was unmistakeable.

How do they know what we stand for? Again, they react in a natural way. How can you proof that they actually know what we stand for? Do they have any insight in human cultures?
What I meant was they aren't impressed by what they think we stand for. They find what they have seen of us abhorent. Ofcourse they only know about that which they see.
What do you mean they "act in a natural way", so do we, but in our minds we make a lot more of it and come to conclusions and so on. Advanced brains are thinking while the body is acting in a natural way. No one familiar with elephants debates over whether they are extremely intelligent thinking animals. Its agreed unanimously, bar a few people like you who don't even take the time to pay any attention to them.
Who's going to be more accurate? People who spend their lives studying these animals or people who have seen a picture of one and already have the preconcieved concept in their minds that non-human animals are all instinct driven simple survival machines?

Wild elephants only know humans as possible predators. As said above, they are perhaps naturally inclined to take an opposing stand when confronted with a possible threat as is not uncommon with larger mammals.
You better go and tell elephants what they "only know", I think they assumed they knew more.
They would see humans as humans, and lions as lions, and antelope as antelope etc. They aren't retarded.
As I said they know what we are up to when we kill them, they have proven this by hiding the tusks of their deceased loved ones in bushes and so on. What conclusion do you draw from that behaviour? Are they instinctively hiding the tusks of their siblings to aid in their survival? How so?


Our habitat is not that near to a killer whale, we have less encounters with them than, say, lions. Moreover, killer whales perhaps stick to eating things they have had some previous experiences with. Who knows?
Actually, aside from humans, killer whales are the most widespread species on earth, I'd say they'd have far more chances to kill humans than lions would.
And as I've said killer whales do not stick to eating that which they are familiar with, they are opportunistic to a remarkable extent. And even animals they don't eat will get killed by them for fun. This is how they happen to behave.


My cat does exactly the same. Would you attribute religious characteristics to him too?
What may look in your eyes as "impressing the gods", may in reality be "playing around with prey to impress the other sex". How do you know the difference?
Because I've spent many hours observing it and I can tell the difference. Don't know what else to say about that.
I've seen impressing females too, it does happen, and I've seen them do it just for fun and I've seen them do it just to be jerks.
Even so, I could be wrong, but it is just the feeling you get from watching it, what can I say? I'm not the only person that gets this impression, it is rather apparent to many people that some killer whales treat hunting like a spiritual experience.

How does word get around in killer whale communities and what do they speak about? Did I miss some news that we deciphered their language? I wouldn't deny that their level of communication is probably quite complex, but as far as I know we have no idea if different packs have different languages, if they speak about experiences with humans or just exchange hunting formations and exclamations of love.
Well as far as you know isn't very far in this instance.
It is well documented that every different pack or genetic line has a different language and actually can not communicate with each other at all.
We don't know what they are saying, but they are doing a lot of talking, no less than humans, so you can come to your own conclusions on that.

I have no idea what the thoughts of a killer whale are. Probably, if they do have a notion about us, they would regard us as predators but i certainly wouldn't go so far as to say that they feel admiration for our predatorial qualities.
You don't have to, I'm going to keep thinking that because I have no reason not to and many little facts and occurences that indicate it could be true.

I'm certainly not sure that both species see us unstoppable predators. They have no idea of our true capabilities. E.g. if a whale is harpooned, it may very well think it was this evil big grey beast that makes such a noise that is attacking him, rather than that it realises it is actually a human pushing the button on that big grey thing.
Well if you read the second link you can see that killer whales(or at least that group) have an indepth knowledge of the human whale hunting process.
And any body that has been whale watching will tell you they aren't looking at the boat and showing off they are looking into the people's eyes and showing off.
They know there a little animals on a hunk of innanimate steel. They might not know we made that hunk of steel and designed it for sea faring but they aren't blind or retarded.

In the case of elephants, i do think that they regard us as their predator in the manner a gazelle sees a panther as their predator. I've not seen anything indicating that elephants have a deeper knowledge of human behaviour. But, i must admit, i have not followed the links you have supplied yet.
You also obviously haven't seen any substantial amount of elephant behaviour.

Hi:
How do you know what I am thinking about you as a person and as a human being in general? You look at me, you see my face my gestures and my thoughts expressed in different ways - poems, prose, painting, music...- and you come to what I think about you.
But what about the animals? Do they talk to us as we, humans do, with each other?. I have never seen one who can speak intelligently. So I have no idea of their reflections!!! about us, humans.
Here I would like to tell you an experience. I have two lovebirds at home. Sometimes when I am alone I ask them Questions loudly, like are you intelligent? And I look at them. They nod. I say ok you are intelligent. I ask them Does God exist? They nod. I say ok you are biliever. Then I ask them when Jesus was born? They just chirp. I say "you are dumb intelligent"
Tonight I hope I will ask them what they think about me. If It was interesting I would post it.
Dr Lou, I advise you take a nap, just for the sake of it. No offence is meant. With love, thanks.

You're asking birds if they believe in god but I'm the one that needs a nap? ok buddy, I'll take YOUR advice, you being the guy who's disappointed that animals can't speak english, yeah I'm going to listen to you man, for real.