Suppose Israel surrendered unconditionally to Arafat, saying just tell us what you want and we will agree.

What would Arafat & the Palestinians consider to be a reasonable settlement?

it really would vary wouldnt it? theres those who would say "just leave our lands" and then those who would say "see that ocean? go That way."

It is highly unlikely that Israel would surrender unconditionally to Arafat.

A mutually agreeable demarcation guaranteed by Arab world,US and UN is a possibility.

Jerusalem should come under UN authority as a heritage city.

It's an issue impossible to broach with any short or glib statement, and I've gotta fly. Most basically, though, Palestinians do not want anything that any other group of people do not want. Palestinians want to live normal lives, where their families have lived for generations, if they choose. I have come to the opinion that ultimately this imperative will require a single system of laws and security for the entire Israel-Palestine area, that will not descriminate based on ethnicity- I believe that the Arab-Israeli conflict, when concluded, will return the Mideast to a status where Arabs and Jews live interspersed throughout the entire region again without antagonism, as they have done for most of history: There is a myth, fueled by hate, of perpetual strife between Arabs and Jews that is untrue. Ethnic segregation in this and every situation perpetuates prejudice, and was a grave mistake from the beginning. What is most wanting in the present context is a fair and authoritative international arbiter of the conflict.

A lot of background was covered in this thread:

Where am I Wrong about Palestine? (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=6535)

The Palistinians only want one thing, all the Jews removed. The Palistinians were offered all they asked for in land concestions but they refused to take the deal and never made a counter proposal as to what it was they really wanted besides the land. The Palistinians are out to destroy Israel and nothing anyone can do will appease them. They aren't reasonable people to deal with, at least the MILITANT ones aren't. To bad moderate Palistinians aren't in control because they could be reasoned with . Alas the militants only want war and blood until every last Jew is killed or driven out of the area.

they want to 'martyr (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/408359.html)' 12 year olds.
this is the second case in a week where a 12 year old (some reports are saying they were 10) was sent with a suicide belt to kill Israelis

the 1st case, the boy didn't know. he was simply paid 5 shekels (1 US dollar) and said "take this bag over there"

the 2nd one, from today, is being questioned. his bomb was safely neutralized.

checkpoints save lives! (of palestinian children)

http://members.rogers.com/9o9/p3.jpg

Dino,

In your hypothetical situation, the Palestinians would probably only be happy with all Israelis either gone or dead. Some people here continually fail to realize basic human nature. It is only natural for different people to be to some extent hostile towards each other just because they are different.

pothead,

Love the pic. You will surely have the libs frothing at the mouth over that one.

hopefuly they won't choke on their froth... ;)

here's another (http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/408359.html) one
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasite/images/iht_daily/D240304/boy_belt240304_ap.jpg
a pic of a 14 year old removing his explosive belt at a checkpoint
CHECKPOINTS SAVE LIVES - of palestinian children.


Sappers used a remote-controlled robot to pass the boy scissors so that he could cut the explosive belt off his body and then safely detonated it in a controlled explosion.
...
A Tanzim cell from the Balata refugee camp in Nablus took responsibility for sending the boy.

The boy said he received NIS 100 ($20 USD) to carry out a suicide attack.
...
The family of the boy, Hussam Abdo, said he was mentally slow. "He doesn't know anything," his brother, Hosni, said.
...
"He told us he didn't want to die. He didn't want to blow up,"


so the palestinian heroes are sending a 14 year old boy, who is apparently retarded, for 20 bucks, to his death...

http://members.rogers.com/9o9/p2.jpg

Its sad but true, in recent servays 87% of palestiniens supported terror attackes against civiliand. Now, our friends on this forum will say its because of the oppression and the intefadah. Well in the happy days of Oslo, when peace was all but a stonethrow away, and both Israelis AND Palestiniens thought that way, more than 60% supported those kinds of attacks.

Meaning no matter howmuch we will give them they will allways want us in the sea. There is no peace from them, its only one more step for them towards the conquest of all the land.

i see. it's very quiet here... why?

the people who sent this kid to his death are war criminals, imo
they should be condemned by Coffee Annan, and UN security council resolutions should condemn them in the strongest possible terms, ban the organizations, arrest the leaders (or at least brand them as "terrorists"), and say very loudly that this is not the way to conduct a strugle, regardless of the legitemacy of the goal

instead they condemn Israel for trying to stop this phoenomenon

"I see. it's very quiet here... why?"

Why? Because you are revealing yourself, in your belief that Palestinians are uncompromising; they want every Jew dead; they cannot be bargained with. Palestinians are acting in morally inferior ways; Palestinians have less respect for innocent life than Israelis; They are less _____;

Verschleissen!

It's fitting. Take a silent moment to contemplate what hate slowly makes you into.

Silence!

That's rich. Pothead shows you the hate that the Palestinian terrorists exhibit, then you accuse HIM of hate. LOL

The Israeli's could crush the Palestinians within a day if it were not for the US paying them not to.

Suppose Israel surrendered unconditionally to Arafat, saying just tell us what you want and we will agree.

What would Arafat & the Palestinians consider to be a reasonable settlement?

Well, I imagine they'd settle for the West Bank, Gaza and Jerusalem.

On the other hand, if the Israelis were going to agree to anything, I'm sure the Palestinians wouldn't say no to controlling the entire state of Israel.

immane1, Start calling Proud_Muslim by his name, or else I'm going to start editing you for flaming.

Check this out to see who is the real terrorist ?

http://www.koshertaxscam.com/atroc

And check here to see how the nazi zionist jews implement the teachings of their holy book, the Talmud:

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/jenin.htm

SAVAGERY THAT SURPASSES NAZIS................

http://www.alkhilafah.info/massacres/palestine/index.htm

"I see. it's very quiet here... why?"

Why? Because you are revealing yourself, in your belief that Palestinians are uncompromising; they want every Jew dead; they cannot be bargained with. Palestinians are acting in morally inferior ways; Palestinians have less respect for innocent life than Israelis; They are less _____;

Verschleissen!

It's fitting. Take a silent moment to contemplate what hate slowly makes you into.

Silence!


Lol, you actually think they have respect for human life? all he said was true, does that make him a nazi? stop making those rediculouse accusations.

That's rich. Pothead shows you the hate that the Palestinian terrorists exhibit, then you accuse HIM of hate. LOLHe tends to frame the situation in a manner that guarantees conflict.

He wishes to reduce the issue to Israel's right to self-defense and refuses issues of method and scale. Yet:
Opinion was divided among Israelis about the wisdom, if not the justice, of the Yassin strike. A Yediot Ahronot newspaper poll showed 60 per cent supporting the assassination with 32 per cent opposed. But 81 per cent said it would lead to an increase in terrorist attacks. (Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/24/whamas24.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/24/ixhome.html))That the centerpiece of your enemy is a target isn't necessarily the debate here. It's a war; killing him is "fair" insofar as I'm concerned. But as I noted in another topic: This wasn't about just killing Yassin. The Israelis could have done that with a rifle. The terroristic rocket attack was designed to hurt and kill more Palestinians than just the target . . . .

. . . . Wheelchair. Rocket. I generally only see overkill like that in a video game. ("Israel's extrajudicial executions (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=34150&page=2)")Besides, the "hiding behind a baby" image is entirely inaccurate.

• Palestinians don't hide behind children, they recruit them when they run out of willing young adults.
• Israelis send civilians to "settle" disputed areas, thus putting human shields into the conflict.

Who's hiding behind babies? I'd say Israel.

• Telegraph. "No surrender, vows new Hamas chief." March 24, 2004. See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/03/24/whamas24.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/03/24/ixhome.html

(see also) -

• Voice of America News. "Killing of Sheikh Yassin may Escalate Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, say Experts" March 23, 2004. See http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=28C8AE53-6A26-4B9C-806E9BF97B763626

love your sources Tiassa :rolleyes:
Opinion was divided among Israelis about the wisdom, if not the justice, of the Yassin strike. A Yediot Ahronot newspaper poll showed 60 per cent supporting the assassination with 32 per cent opposed. But 81 per cent said it would lead to an increase in terrorist attacks.
opinion was divided.
but you see, what was not mentioned in Yediot Aharonot was that Hamas did its best to kill us before killing of Yassin, and it'll do its best after it. in the short run, maybe they'll increase their efforts. in the long run, it'll reduce terror significantly

Palestinians don't hide behind children, they recruit them when they run out of willing young adults.
no.. they change their tactics to "what will fool the soldiers best"
Salah Shehada, the 2nd most "prominent" terrorist that was killed, lived in a building next to a kindergarten. he was always surrounded by children.
palestinian 'gunmen', as they cutely called in the media, they don't make sure there are no children around... they often surround themselves with children to make it harder for IDF to fight them.
and as far as recruiting... you make it sound like these youths came to a job agency or something... the social contract is completely unfair, because the societal pressures on these kids.. and even without it, the scumfuckers tell these kids "if you do'nt do blow yourself up we'll kick the shit out of you" or other threats
"why are you not willing to become a martyr for the palestinian cause? you're not a collaborator, are you? you know what we do to collaborators"

Israelis send civilians to "settle" disputed areas, thus putting human shields into the conflict.
Who's hiding behind babies? I'd say Israel
so it's Israel's fault that the murderers decide to kill children? why not attack soldiers?
that's an interesting spin

Counsler,

"immane1, Start calling Proud_Muslim by his name, or else I'm going to start editing you for flaming."

What the hell are you talking about? I didn't address him here at all. Did you even read this thread?

Yes, I did read this thread.

I thought you were talking about Proud_Muslim and trying to bait him, my mistake. I didn't know that you were actually talking about otheadp. Sorry. :)

No problem. I try to ignore the before mentioned. Now if only everybody else would.... ;)

What do the Pals want? Some want all of the Levant, others are content to have their territories as they are now (1967, and no walls), if that would create peace. Others a much smaller minority would want a one state solution. The average Pal. today has been radicalized by the death of Yassin, which was caused by the Israeli's because they in the future will be dealing with an organization that will not do her bidding. Hamas is poised to replace the P.A as the new generation comes into power. Israel can only blame herself for perpetuating this by illegally occupying, and an extra-judicial killing... to put it bluntly, crime doesn’t pay. The idea that Israel can simply destroy the Pals is simply not going to happen. There are red lines that the US can only tolerate, and the US needs Saudi Arabia then she will ever need Israel. European support Israel is at a all time low and getting lower, ppl are starting to understand the disaster Zionism has wrought on the ppl of the Levant, Jewish, Muslim, or Christian. The pendulum is swinging against Israel, she shouldn't be too brave.

a "Minority" wants a once state solution? Pathetic. Find me a sorce for that crap. They ALL want a one state solution because it would mean a hegmonic palestine on all Israeli lands, they know they just cant get it.

Are these the actions of a hegemonic entity?


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/index.html

Axes


Then explain to me why there are settlers on Pal. land? You have no basis for your argument; some ppl on both sides expressed an interest in a one state solution.

but you see, what was not mentioned in Yediot Aharonot was that Hamas did its best to kill us before killing of Yassin, and it'll do its best after it.And what you fail to mention is that Hamas was, back then, responding to Israeli aggression.in the short run, maybe they'll increase their efforts. in the long run, it'll reduce terror significantly Perhaps. Hopefully.the social contract is completely unfair, because the societal pressures on these kids What an interesting point to see coming from you, whose argument seems to rest in an open rejection of the social contract.and even without it, the scumfuckers tell these kids "if you do'nt do blow yourself up we'll kick the shit out of you" or other threatsIn the meantime, the "scumfuckers" over in the Israeli government will blow the kids up, anyway.

Really, does it help you feel better to be so irrational, scumfucker?"why are you not willing to become a martyr for the palestinian cause? you're not a collaborator, are you? you know what we do to collaborators"I live in a country where a man who lost three limbs in service to his country was besmirched by the Bush administration specifically because, in his capacities as an elected representative, he continued to defend America and the greatness we believe about our country.

It's not a whole lot different than what we hear in the US, except for the condition and temperament of the audience.so it's Israel's fault that the murderers decide to kill children? why not attack soldiers?
that's an interesting spin Eye for an eye?

Come on, I thought this was Israel we're talking about.

Axes


Then explain to me why there are settlers on Pal. land? You have no basis for your argument; some ppl on both sides expressed an interest in a one state solution.


Stop trying to change the issue when you have no response to what I said. Palestiniens want the whole of Israel, and it has nothing to do with settlers.

The arab demand, before the 1967 war was for big chunks of pre1967-borders israel for a lasting cease fire or even peace, meaning there is no red line in their demands, stop twisting the subject.

Stop trying to change the issue when you have no response to what I said. Palestiniens want the whole of Israel, and it has nothing to do with settlers.


What I was trying to say to you (which has obviously escaped you) was that your logic can be said about Israeli's. All Israeli's want to conquer all of the W.Bank, Gaza, and beyond. Obviously that is not ture, some Israeli's do, but most don't. Some Pals. do, but most really don't care. They want peace like the average Israeli does. Unlike the Zionist's though the Pals. Haven’t put up settlements in Israel have they? So who is colonizing and threatening whom? Think about it please, you are eminently more guilty of one state under one ppl.

The arab demand, before the 1967 war was for big chunks of pre1967-borders israel for a lasting cease fire or even peace, meaning there is no red line in their demands, stop twisting the subject.

Welcome to 2003 mien friend, things have indeed changed. Most ppl in the region want the status quo and to get over it. To live in peace, how can you expect the Pals. to give you peace when you are imperializing her legal territories? The subject is gestalt-ian in perspective you cannot take one without a dose of the other. So please don't dictate my discussion, because I can make the connections.

About one state solution:

Either way, a one-state solution means the Palestinians accept Jewish settlers as legitimate neighbors and Israelis view the Palestinians as fellow citizens. The state would provide equal rights and privileges for both populations. Both would have the right to immigrate; "audah" for the Palestinians, "aliyah" for the Jews. For both, Jerusalem would be one open capital.
.
Automatically, the new state would have friendly and peaceful relations with its neighbors, and it would serve as an example of reconciliation and coexistence.
.
This solution is not realistic, say the skeptics. The Palestinians are not ready for it and Israel, obsessed with demographics, will never accept it. However, within 20 years, the Jewish state's own Palestinian citizens will make up one third of the population, hence introducing binationalism to Israel proper. Then what? Ultimately, Israel needs to address demography through constitutional democracy.
.
Remember, although Palestinians and Jews were never officially wedded, they have been living together, in happiness or in hell, on the same plot of land and under the same skies, for centuries. The death of Oslo offers a possibility for a new life based on true peace and a sustainable future for Israelis and Palestinians together that would preserve and protect their collective rights.
.

Stop trying to change the issue when you have no response to what I said. Palestiniens want the whole of Israel, and it has nothing to do with settlers.


What I was trying to say to you (which has obviously escaped you) was that your logic can be said about Israeli's. All Israeli's want to conquer all of the W.Bank, Gaza, and beyond. Obviously that is not ture, some Israeli's do, but most don't. Some Pals. do, but most really don't care. They want peace like the average Israeli does. Unlike the Zionist's though the Pals. Haven’t put up settlements in Israel have they? So who is colonizing and threatening whom? Think about it please, you are eminently more guilty of one state under one ppl.

The arab demand, before the 1967 war was for big chunks of pre1967-borders israel for a lasting cease fire or even peace, meaning there is no red line in their demands, stop twisting the subject.

Welcome to 2003 mien friend, things have indeed changed. Most ppl in the region want the status quo and to get over it. To live in peace, how can you expect the Pals. to give you peace when you are imperializing her legal territories? The subject is gestalt-ian in perspective you cannot take one without a dose of the other. So please don't dictate my discussion, because I can make the connections.

About one state solution:


2003? The only thing that changed since then is that Israel is stronger than it was 30 years ago, if it wasnt, dont expect the arabs to stay content with 67' borders. You seem good at defending them, defend their terror attacks, manipulations, making them world victims yet critisizing Every single thing Israel did.

Acting as a liberal while barely concealing your racism does not make you an intellectual.

You are worse then I thought:

The only thing that changed since then is that Israel is stronger than it was 30 years ago, if it wasnt, dont expect the arabs to stay content with 67' borders.

The thing that changed from 37 years ago is that there are over 200,000 illegal settlers on what is legally Pal. land. Do you honestly expect the Pals. to sit back and allow that to happen? You live in a dream world if so...you don't know what the Arabs want because you never gave them what they wanted. The 1967 borders, you can say that they don't want it, all you want. But I can say the same thing for Israel. Thus what validity does your position have?

Acting as a liberal while barely concealing your racism does not make you an intellectual.

How can I be racist against an ideology? Stop the indoctrination please:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

You are not representative of the Jewish ppl or cause, don't pretend as if you do. I’m probably more Hebrew then you.

Also we must not forget that there are those within Israel proper who oppose the occupation and recognize it for what it is:

Each side characterizes its own soldiers as either "defense forces" or "freedom fighters" when in truth these soldiers take part in war crimes on a daily basis. Daily funerals and thoughts of revenge among Israelis tend to blur the fact that we, the Israelis, are the occupiers. And as much as we live in fear of terrorism and war, it is the Palestinians who suffer more deaths hourly and live with greater fear because they are the occupied.
----------------------------------------------------
Twenty years ago, when I was first inducted into the Israeli Army, to serve as a paratrooper and officer for four and a half years, I took an oath to defend Israel and obey my commanders. I was young, a patriot, probably naïve, and sure that as a soldier my job was to defend my home and country. It did not occur to me that I might be used to carry out an occupation or asked to fight in military engagements that are not essential for the defense of Israel.
-----------------------------------------------------
As our government prepares to increase military action in the West Bank and Gaza, Israelis need a true debate about the nature of Israel's presence in these territories. Israeli and international human rights groups have raised their voices about the persistent violation of Palestinian human rights. I believe it is my duty as a citizen of a democratic nation to protest this conduct, which cannot be justified.
----------------------------------------------------
I and others who serve in the defense forces cannot by our actions alone change government policies or make peace negotiations more likely. But we can show our fellow citizens that occupation of the territories is not just a political or strategic matter. It is also a moral matter. We can show them an alternative — they can say no to occupation. When we begin to see Israel's situation in that light, perhaps we will be able to let go of our fear enough to find a way forward.

Link (http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/nytimes/nyt03092002.htm)

We are accused of being righteous by some, but those who have served in the territories themselves know the daily repression and the daily humiliation of Palestinians on what is their own land. It is painfully obvious that naivety is a major factor in this notion that Israel is not responsible at all, how can a democratic nation be responsible for these things? Well sadly it is, and if Israel wants to live in peace, then get out of the occupied territories. Pull out the illegal settlements, and most importantly (this is only logical) take the food out of the hands of the militant groups. If Israel pulled out of that land, international opinion would swing in Israel’s favor. Pals have to realize that Zionist’s are not going to leave the country, and they should try to live in peace. Eventually Israel will become a majority Arab state, her birth rates are too western, and emigration is now common. People don’t want to live in Israel because it’s not worth it. One state solution with both ppl’s rights being respected and accepting both as equals under a secular constitution, with democracy, and a neutral political party which represents both Arabs and Jews under one common banner. The two state solution is not working, I think we can all see this.

tiasa, you're hopeless. i see your apologism for terrorism will never stop.
a word of advice, try to preserve whatever braincells are still operational
it was nice, but you are now free to go back to mt. olympus, your excellency

nico:
funny thing, the way democracy works, people don't always agree with eachother or their government!
i'm sure you know about the Refusenik movement in Israel? they're either pacifists or deserters.
they exist
as they exist in any country
but they are an insignificant minority. nothing more.
you and those in your camp simply put them on a pedestal to make them look bigger than they are.

i like what you said in the other thread. "we can start with these" (a map of 'west bank' and gaza)
sort of sums up the whole thread

tiasa, you're hopeless. i see your apologism for terrorism will never stop.
a word of advice, try to preserve whatever braincells are still operational
it was nice, but you are now free to go back to mt. olympus, your excellencyAww ... I didn't mean to ask you questions you were incapable of answering.

Really, I figured since you were so convinced that you were right that answering such issues should be well-within your comfort and capability.

However, I do admit that your racism, as I've encountered it in our discussions over the last couple of days, does reduce the ability of other people to communicate rationally with you.

So maybe I shouldn't be surprised that you've got nothing.

Does anybody remember the original conditions set up by the UN in 1947? Compared to what has happened since then, the Palestinians were well off until 5 Arab nations decided to attack Israel.

You are worse then I thought:

The only thing that changed since then is that Israel is stronger than it was 30 years ago, if it wasnt, dont expect the arabs to stay content with 67' borders.

The thing that changed from 37 years ago is that there are over 200,000 illegal settlers on what is legally Pal. land. Do you honestly expect the Pals. to sit back and allow that to happen? You live in a dream world if so...you don't know what the Arabs want because you never gave them what they wanted. The 1967 borders, you can say that they don't want it, all you want. But I can say the same thing for Israel. Thus what validity does your position have?

Acting as a liberal while barely concealing your racism does not make you an intellectual.

How can I be racist against an ideology? Stop the indoctrination please:

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org/

You are not representative of the Jewish ppl or cause, don't pretend as if you do. I’m probably more Hebrew then you.

Are settlements, in your opinion the only thing that’s changed in 30 years? Don’t you think that’s a bit narrow minded? I don’t expect tha palestiniens to sit back, but you expect Israelis to. Palestiniens were offered more than they ever could dream of, and could have gotten more from continued negotiations, but Arafat saw what happened in lebanon and gambled, he lost, in the long term.

About you saying the same about Israelis? You know that’s bullshit, show me a servey where most Israelis don’t support a state on the 67 borders after an agreement with palestinien leadership, you wont find it. On the other hand you will find in every servey that way more than 50% of palestiniens support terror and would not support an agreement where palestine doesn’t cover all of Israel today.

How can you be racist by opposing an odeology? You cant, but what you state on grounds of ideology show much about your true nature. You are an arrogant little teenager who reads the economist while asking for more cereal from his mom and thinks himself a marxist socialist.

Though you know nothing of the real world because you didn’t experience any of it. Let me know when your family blows up in front of your eyes, lets see your perfect ideology then. Life is tough, kid, and I hope you don’t learn that to your sorrow.

The root of the bias is in racism, and my dear nico, you Are biased. You claim to being more hebrew than I am by endorsing the Khazaar theory and stating it as fact. No one has proven it and you know it, meaning you are aware of your bias but don’t really care. What you see in yourself is not what others see in you. Grow up.

Are settlements, in your opinion the only thing that’s changed in 30 years?

It's the only thing that matters, the Pals. did not do anything to instigate this occupational and illegal colonization. I hate to sound like a 4 year old...but you started it. It is your responsibility to finish it.

I don’t expect tha palestiniens to sit back, but you expect Israelis to. Palestiniens were offered more than they ever could dream of,

You mean Bantustans? Have you actually seen the "dream"? Please if you are going to rely on CNN to tell you it was a "dream" for the Pals. then you are indeed a lost cause.

About you saying the same about Israelis? You know that’s bullshit, show me a servey where most Israelis don’t support a state on the 67 borders after an agreement with palestinien leadership, you wont find it.

It is irrelevant the majority don't matter on either side. I am not taking sides; you Zionists get so defensive over nothing. What I am saying is that those "suicide bombers" are the Pal. equivalent of the fanatical Israeli settler. They both want it all for themselves. All I am asking you do is think. You usually burn more calories thinking then shitting…

How can you be racist by opposing an odeology? You cant, but what you state on grounds of ideology show much about your true nature. You are an arrogant little teenager who reads the economist while asking for more cereal from his mom and thinks himself a marxist socialist.

Talking to oth are we? Well I am such a Marxist, especially considering I support Globalization... :rolleyes: Anyways, you know as well as I do. You are not a race, don't pretend you are. Don’t pretend you are G-d’s country because you aren’t. What Israel is, is a state based on lies, propaganda, indoctrination (as so eloquently shown here), naivety. Do you think I am so stupid as to be "Anti-Semitic" when that is what makes Israel exist today? LOL! I weep for the future….

Though you know nothing of the real world because you didn’t experience any of it. Let me know when your family blows up in front of your eyes, lets see your perfect ideology then. Life is tough, kid, and I hope you don’t learn that to your sorrow.

Are you talking about the 2,700 dead Pals? Yup... you have done more damage, more death, more illegal activity then the Pals. could even dream of. Take comfort in that...

The root of the bias is in racism, and my dear nico, you Are biased. You claim to being more hebrew than I am by endorsing the Khazaar theory and stating it as fact. No one has proven it and you know it, meaning you are aware of your bias but don’t really care. What you see in yourself is not what others see in you. Grow up.

I am not Slavic so I don't what you are talking about, come again with a argument not a ad hom..., I shall be waiting.

The root of the problem is not in the settlements or the suicide bombers.
It is in the Palestinian education system, which has only bred more and more hatred over the past 30 years.
That hatred is the cause of violence. That violence breeds more violence, and the cycle continues.
Who has control of the Palestinian education system? That's right, it's that sick guy. There will not be peace until that system is changed, which could take generations.

Can any Israeli prime minister allow the citizens of his or her country to die while awaiting change? No. The solution? Segregation.


Axes ---> In Vas Mani ;)




And for your reading pleasure:

>>March 22, 2004
>
>
>
>Why they Hate us at The Hague
>
>The David Cardozo Academy
>Machon Ohr Aaron
>7 Cassuto Street
>Jerusalem 96433
>e-mail: cacademy@012.net.il
>www.cardozoschool.org
>
>*****
>
>The Jews
>
>“Some people like the Jews, and some do not.
> But no thoughtful man can deny the fact that they are, beyond any
>question, the most formidable and the most remarkable race which has
>appeared in the world.”
>
>Winston Churchill (1)
>
>**
>
>“The Jew is that sacred being who has brought down from heaven the
>everlasting fire, and has illumined with it the entire world. He is the
>religious source, spring, and fountain out of which all the rest of the
>peoples have drawn their beliefs and their religions.”
>
>Leo Tolstoy (2)
>
>**
>
>“It was in vain that we locked them up for several hundred years behind the
>walls of the Ghetto. No sooner were their prison gates unbarred than they
>easily caught up with us, even on those paths which we opened up without
>their aid.”
>
>A. A. Leroy Beaulieu (3)
>
>**
>
>“The Jew gave us the Outside and the Inside – our outlook and our inner
>life. We can hardly get up in the morning or cross the street without being
>Jewish. We dream Jewish dreams and hope Jewish hopes. Most of our best
>words, in fact – new, adventure surprise, unique, individual, person,
>vocation, time, history, future, freedom, progress, spirit, faith hope,
>justice - are the gifts of the Jews.”
>
>Thomas Cahill (4)
>
>**
>
>“One of the gifts of the Jewish culture to Christianity is that it has
>taught Christians to think like Jews, and any modern man who has not
>learned man to think as though he were a Jew can hardly be said to have
>learned to think at all.”
>
>William Rees-Mogg (5)
>
>**
>
>“It is certain that in certain parts of the world we can see a peculiar
>people, separated from the other peoples of the world and this is called
>the Jewish people…. This people is not only of remarkable antiquity but has
>also lasted for a singular long time… For whereas the people of Greece and
>Italy, of Sparta, Athens and Rome and others who came so much later have
>perished so long ago, these still exist, despite the efforts of so many
>powerful kings who have tried a hundred times to wipe them out, as their
>historians testify, and as can easily be judged by the natural order of
>things over such a long spell of years. They have always been preserved,
>however, and their preservation was foretold… My encounter with this people
>amazes me…”
>
>Blaise Pascal (6)
>
>**
>
>“The Jewish vision became the prototype for many similar grand designs for
>humanity, both divine and man made. The Jews, therefore, stand at the
>center of the perennial attempt to give human life the dignity of a
>purpose.”
>
>Paul Johnson (7)
>
>**
>
>“As long as the world lasts, all who want to make progress in righteousness
>will come to Israel for inspiration as to the people who had the sense for
>righteousness most glowing and strongest.”
>
>Matthew Arnold (8)
>
>**
>
> Indeed it is difficult for all other nations of the world to live
>in the presence of the Jews. It is irritating and most uncomfortable.
>
> The Jews embarrass the world as they have done things which are
>beyond the imaginable. They have become moral strangers since the day their
>forefather Abraham introduced the world to high ethical standards and to
>the fear of Heaven. They brought the world the Ten Commandments which many
>nations prefer to defy. They violated the rules of history by staying
>alive, totally at odds with common sense and historical evidence.
>
> They outlived all their former enemies, including vast empires
>such as the Romans and the Greeks. They angered the world with their return
>to their homeland after 2000 years of exile and after the murder of six
>million of their brothers and sisters. They aggravated mankind by building,
>in the wink of an eye, a democratic State which others were not able to
>create in even hundreds of years. They built living monuments such as the
>duty to be holy and the privilege to serve one’s fellow men. They had their
>hands in every human progressive endeavor, whether in science, medicine,
>psychology or any other discipline, while totally out of proportion to
>their actual numbers. They gave the world the Bible and even their
>“savior”.
>
>Jews taught the world not to accept the world as it is but to transform it,
>yet only a few nations wanted to listen. Moreover, the Jews introduced the
>world to one God, yet only a minority wanted to draw the moral
>consequences.
>
> So the nations of the world realize that they would have been lost
>without the Jews. And while their subconscious tries to remind them of how
>much of Western civilization is framed in terms of concepts first
>articulated by the Jews, they do anything to suppress it. They deny that
>Jews remind them of a higher purpose of life and the need to be honorable,
>and do anything to escape its consequences. It is simply too much to
>handle for them, too embarrassing to admit, and above all too difficult to
>live by. (*dml comment below)
>
> So the nations of the world decided once again to go out of its
>way in order to find a stick to hit the Jews. The goal: to prove that Jews
>are as immoral and guilty of massacre and genocide as some of themselves
>are. All this in order to hide and justify their own failure to even
>protest when six million Jews were brought to the slaughterhouses of
>Auschwitz and Dachau; so as to wipe out the moral conscience of which the
>Jews remind them. And they found a stick. Nothing could be more
>gratifying for them than to find the Jews into a struggle with another
>people (who are completely terrorized by their own leaders) against whom
>the Jews, against their best wishes, have to defend themselves in order to
>survive. With great satisfaction, the world allows and initiates the
>rewriting of history so as to fuel the rage of yet another people against
>the Jews. This in spite of the fact that the nations understand very well
>that peace between the parties could have come a long time ago,
> if only the Jews would have had a fair chance. Instead, they happily
>jumped on the wagon of hate so as to justify their jealousy of the Jews and
>their incompetence to deal with their own moral issues.
>
> When Jews look at the bizarre play, taking place in The Hague,
>they can only smile as this artificial game once more proves how the world
>paradoxically admits the Jews uniqueness. It is in their need to undermine
>the Jews that they actually raise them.
>
>“The study of history of Europe during the past centuries teaches us one
>uniform lesson: That the nations which received and in any way dealt fairly
>and mercifully with the Jew have prospered; and that the nations that have
>tortured and oppressed him have written out their own curse.”
>
>Olive Schreiner (9)
>
>**
>
>“If there is any honour in all the world that I should like, it would be to
>be an honorary Jewish citizen.”
>
>A.L. Rowse (10)
>
>**
>
>(1) Quoted by Geoffry Wheatcroft in "The Contrversy of Zion,"
>Sinclair-Stevenson, London, 1996, X1.
>
>(2) Leo Tolstoy, Quoted by Chief Rabbi J.H.Hertz in "A Book of Jewish
>Thoughts," Oxford University Press, 1966, p.135.
>
>(3) Anatole Leroy Beaulieu, French historian. "Israel among the nations,"
>p.162. 1893, Ibid, p.174.
>
>(4) Thomas Cahill, "The Gifts of the Jews," Doubleday, New York, 1998, p.
>240-41.
>
>(5) William Rees Mogg, "The Times," quoted by Chief Rabbi Jonathan Sacks,
>"Radical then, radical now," Harper Collins, London, 2000, p 4.
>
>(6) Pascal, "Pensees", translation by A.J. Krailsheimer, Penquin,
>Harmondsworth, 1968, p. 171, 176-77.
>
>(7) Paul Johnson, "A History of the Jews," Weindenfeld & Nicolsohn, London,
>1987, p 2.
>
>(8) Matthew Arnold, "Literature and Dogma," Smith, Elder, London, 1876, p
>58
>
>(9) Olive Schreiner, South African novelist, quoted by Chief Rabbi J.H.
>Hertz, p,177,180, Ibid, p. 180.
>
>(10) A.L. Rowse, "Historians I have known," Duckworth, London, 1995, p.
>
>(All the above authors are gentiles)
>
(*) it sees to me, just a guess, that there is a parallel between the hatred
of the islamofascist toward the west, and the hatred of jew-haters toward
the jew.

The islamofascists (almost all of whom are arab)
hate the west because the success of western civilization humiliates the
islamofascist in light of the abysmal failure of Islamis society in the Arab
world (and cf. the UN study of 10.02 that documents this galactic failure -
i'm not passing judgement, the UN already did that for me....and did a very
good job).

so too does the jew-hater hate the Jew because of the Jew's amazing success,
against all odds and despite the oppression and humiliation and lethal hatred
of the Jew-hater.

The islamofascists are terrified of the west because the west exemplifies
democratic socieity at its best. If such society were to blossom in the
Islamic world, it would be the end of the Mullahs, the end of the
hate-preachers, and the end of the totalitarian leaders.

So too does the Jew-hater fear the Jew, because Jew, when he lives up to the demands that his Jewishness makes upon him, exemplifies the standard to which all socieites and individuals should strive...and the jew-hater does
not want to face that challenge. That challenge terrifies him.

when one considers who our enemies have been, from Haman to Hitler to Hamas, Antiochus to Arafat, Romans to Russians to Rantisi, the very nature of our adversaries, and the kind of socieities and governance and values that they represent, all demonstrate the nobility of our tradition and the threat that it presents to the tyrant.

The primitive mind cannot tolerate difference, dissent, disagreement. The
Jew's job, since Abraham, has been to be different. So the primitive mind
cannot tolerate the Jew.

The solution? Segregation.

Do you mean like this one?

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/posters/derjude.jpg

There is historical precedent to your madness you know... ;)

this is from the thread that was closed

Israel retaliates, while Palestinians provoke. Yasser Arafat inexplicably turned down Ehud Barak's unprecedented generous offer and incited the current intifada out of spite towards Israel. The United States is an impartial peace broker. Relative quiet exists when it's only Palestinians who are dying. What is missing from the coverage is what it means for Palestinians to endure checkpoints and curfews, as well as Israeli voices of dissent, and the billions of dollars the U.S. gives to Israel each year. But why are these conventions so pervasive in the media?


would anyone like to address the points that PM took from some website?

The solution? Segregation.

Do you mean like this one?


There is historical precedent to your madness you know... ;)


Are you dense?

This is the only possible solution until the Palestinian Authority revamps its education system.
There is no similarity whatsoever between segregated territories to the nazi doctrine. You must be really, really ignorant to think that way.
I am very curious as to your education in the field. I wouldn't mind sharing mine in return.

In the words of the wise Axes, grow up.

And in the words of the wise David Meir-Levi:

Message to the Palestinian People:

"after 80 years of your leadership's terrorism against us...

"after 65 years of your leadership's rejecting a dozen offers of Palestinian
statehood solely because these offers implied co-existence with us...

"after 60 years of your leadership's threats to genocide us...

"after 55 years of constant warfare, either full scale assaults or terrorist
attacks...

"after 35 years of your leadership's never missing an opportunity to miss an
opportunity...

"after 25 years of Arafat's rejecting the peace offers that Egypt and Jordan
accepted...

"after 10 years of Arafat's waging the Oslo terror war despite his promise
to eschew terrorism...

"after 3+ years of Arafat's ratchetting up the Oslo war to become the worst
terror war since 1948, with almost 1,400 Israeli dead and three times that
many Palestinians, despite Baraq's offer which Prince Bandar bin-Sultan
declared was the very best offer that any Palestinian leader could ever hope
for...

"and after Israel has countless times offered to give back conquered
territory and handle disputed issues in negotiations or mediations, only to
be rebuffed every time with violence, terrorism, war and threats of
genocide...

...after all that, you may continue to claim that you still have "the keys"
to your Palestinian homeland. But I declare to you, now and forever, that
Israel has changed the locks."

Are you dense?

Well I am made of carbon, so yes I am. If you mean in a figurative sense, no I am not. What I am simply doing is showing you that your overly racist attitude has many precedents in the past. A German in 1930's Germany would say the same things that you say about the Pals. look at Oth, he loves calling the Arabs sub-human like the Jews were to the Germans. Segregation puts the blame on the conflict on those who are legally defending themselves from an occupation. The similarities btwn Nazi Germany and the mentality of the Zionist are too overt to ignore.

This is the only possible solution until the Palestinian Authority revamps its education system.

There are suicide bombers who lived inside Israel, your point being? The reason why this is happening has very little to do with education, rather the injustices done against the Pals. All colonized and imperialized ppl in history have fought against their oppressors. This time is no different, and just because its Israel dosen’t make it any different. If you don't want dead Israeli's on your streets get out of the land that is not yours. Plain and simple, that shouldn’t take too much education.

There is no similarity whatsoever between segregated territories to the nazi doctrine. You must be really, really ignorant to think that way.

Intelligence does not fit in your definition of ignorance obviously. Both are based on racial superiority, both are treating the sub-humans as scapegoats, and both have elements which want to deport all these untermensch off what they believe is virginal land. You would have to be intellectually retarded, and emotionally dominated not to see it. Ignorance stems from emotion, not fact. You can't get your emotional faculties to calm down; the only victim is your intellect.

I am very curious as to your education in the field. I wouldn't mind sharing mine in return.

Your appeal to authority is laughable at best...

I am not naming Arabs anything. You are the one doing it.

Two segregated states do not imply anyone being subhuman. Those are your words, again.
You state arguments that have little breadth.
Do you know the amount of suicide bombers coming from within Israel? Get back to me when you do.

Two segregated states is a solution brought fourth by Palestinians suicide bombers themselves. It is time you realized that. That will also put an end to your "occupation."

There is no racial superiority involved, no scapegoats, and no untermensch. Those are your words, again.

And last, your laugh at authority is amusing at best...


Read the following, and read it very carefully.


By David Meir-Levi:

Dear Mr. Prime Minister Sharon,

You made a wonderful, eye-popping, break-through, corner-turning,
earth-moving announcement a month ago. You told the Palestinian Authority
and the world that Israel would unilaterally withdraw from the West Bank to
borders that Israel would unilaterally define, and you would start with the
Gaza Strip. Bilateral definition of borders would still be possible, you
said, if the PA stopped the terror and the incitement and started
negotiating in good faith. But either way, Israel was going to take action.

I fear the message was lost on them. They did not seem to understand that
you told them that either way they are going to get their state. If they
stop the terror, they get a state with borders agreed upon bilaterally. If
they do not stop the terror, they get a state with borders that Israel
establishes.

But the incitement continues, the terror continues, Qurei'a makes it clear
that he is not willing or able to do anything about it, and Arafat
demonstrates that he is still in charge by categorically prohibiting any
action against the terrorists. In short, even when their state is
guaranteed, and it is only the size of the state that is in question, and
they can have a bigger state if they stop the terrorism and start talking,
they still maintain the terrorism. Clearly, terrorism against Israel is a
higher priority for the PA leaders than a state alongside of Israel.

So now, in my humble opinioin, it is time for you to make the next strategic
announcement.

Now that they have made it clear that terrorism is their highest priority
(and let's keep in mind that since its inception post-1948, the single
defining paradigm of Palestinian national self-determination has always been
terrorism against Israel with the intent to destroy Israel), you must make
it clear that all negotiations are at an end, all Israeli action will now be
unilateral, and the highest priority for you now is the destruction of the
terrorist threat (not the abatement, nor the containment, nor the
reduction....rather, the destruction).

To that end you should announce, clearly, forcefully and without delay, to
the world, to the PA, and to all residents of Israel on both sides of the
green line, that Israel is keeping open the offer to the PA for negotiation,
but only until the next terrorist attack. After that attack (if it comes,
God forbid), Israel will declare unlimited, open, conventional, full-scale
war against all terrorist enemies of Israel anywhere and everywhere.
Tragically, you will need to indicate in your announcement, that civilian
areas will NOT be spared. If terrorists hide in residential neighborhoods,
those neighborhoods will become war zones. Just as millions of civilians
died in WW1, WW2, Korean war, Vietnahm war, Afghanistan, and Iraq, so too
will untold thousands of Arab civilians die in the war that you will wage
against the terrorists, if the terrorists are allowed to operate from
civilian bases (*).

In addition to the normal modes of declaration, you should also do mailings
and air-drops of leaflets in Arabic, Hebrew, French and English, saying the
same thing, to all residents of Israel, and to all inhabitants of the border
areas of Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt.

This will be a real win-win situation for Israel, for the international war
against terrorism, and (ironically) for the Palestinian people who want
peace and normalcy.

Of course the international world institutions and many national
institutions will excoriate you, call you a war criminal, call Israel the
world's biggest threat to world peace....ya-da-ya-da-ya-da....but they are
doing that already. And the Arab countries will plunge into their
traditional rant about the need for Jihad to wipe out the Zionist entity
before it genocides the Palestinians, ya-da-ya-da-ya-da....but they are
doing that already (and in real life, behind the scenes, some will be
relieved that you are getting rid of the Palestinian terrorist threat). So
what is there to loose?

If the Palestinian people who want peace can find the courage to stand up to
their terrorist leaders and stop the terror (even if it means a civil war),
then both Israel and the Palestinian people who want peace will have won.

If not, then you have a free hand to wield genuine excessive force against
terrorism. Remember Isaiah 49:6, "..a light unto the nations"? A
successful war against terrorism, carrying the conflict to the enemy (just
as all military thinkers have told us since Lao Tsu)....that will be a light
unto the nations in our current war against Islamofaschist terrorism.

Of course, you will need to coordinate this with President Bush (and perhaps
Tony Blair, and perhaps even King Abdullah II of Jordan), and maybe wait
until after the November elections before making the anouncement....but it
would be wise to start planning now.

Yours,

David Meir-Levi


PS. I have cc'd President Bush and other USA political leaders, just to keep
them in the loop.

(*) You may want to have your PR department explain to President Bush and to
the world the concept: "where do you want the casualties?". It is deeply
tragic that any national leader must asnwer this question; but it is clear
where the terrorists want them. It is also clear what decision the leaders
of other countries have made for thousands of years. No reason to expect
Israel to make a different decision.

So now, by taking decisive, powerful,unilateral action, you, and not the
terrorists, will decide where the casualties will be. The full-scale war
against terrorism means that the Israeli civilian society will no longer be
the casualties. If the terrorists do not endanger civilians by using them as
human shields, then the casualties will be among the terrorists. If the
terrorists do use their civilians as human shields, then those civilians and
the terrorists will be the casualties. It is horrible to need to make such
a decision, but the terrorists leave you no choice.

I am not naming Arabs anything. You are the one doing it.

So then segregation against whom? Segregation against Arabs in Palestine obviously. Who do you think you are kidding sir?

Two segregated states do not imply anyone being subhuman. Those are your words, again.

LOL, nice one trying to make look as if I called them sub-human. I suggest you improve your reading comprehension, and note I said oth called them sub-human. This is a racist, elitist attitude taken in Israel. What do you call Black Jews again? Kosheim? Something of that nature, yes racism in Israel is alive and kicking. Anti-marriage laws, little property rights for the Arabs, yes South Africa re-visited.

Do you know the amount of suicide bombers coming from within Israel? Get back to me when you do.

http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2001/09/09/LatestNews/LatestNews.34417.html

It is believed to be the first time an Israeli Arab has acted as a suicide bomber. In previous attacks Israeli Arabs have assisted the bombers.

Welcome to the new reality, so now that your education theorem is denoted go on, make me laugh more.

Two segregated states is a solution brought fourth by Palestinians suicide bombers themselves.

Odd according to your emotional Zionist cohorts they do it so they can kill all the Jews, and bring the Levant under one banner? Are they incorrect?

That will also put an end to your "occupation."

It is an occupation, Sharon even admitted to as such. This is where I laugh...at you. :D Thanks for the comic relief.

There is no racial superiority involved, no scapegoats, and no untermensch. Those are your words, again.


Actions speak significantly louder then words, and Israel has shown that she has done all three. I can show quotes of Israeli’s calling Arabs those Nazi-esqe things if you so need.

I don't know why you waste your time posting other ppl's argumentations, which is a desperate sign of intellectual inefficiency. Do come back with your own arguments. Like I said to Axes your friend, it takes more calories to think then to shit...

seg·re·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sgr-gt)
v. seg·re·gat·ed, seg·re·gat·ing, seg·re·gates
v. tr.
To separate or isolate from others or from a main body or group. See Synonyms at isolate.

(Dictionary.com)

Fact: The amount of suicide bombers coming from within Israel can be counted on one hand. You were a good boy and proved this one yourself.

Fact: Since Gaza has been fenced, the amount of suicide bombers coming from Gaza to Israel can be counted on one hand. You may retrieve this one on your own as well.

Fact: You fail to respond to my arguments and provide very, very poor replies. You consistently attempt to change the subject.

Considering I agree with David's arguments does not mean that I have no arguments. It means that I find it pointless to rewrite what he has written so beautifully.

Let me sum up my points neatly for you, so you don't have to spread the subject further:

Point 1: The Palestinian education system is the root of violence.
Point 2: The only temporary solution available before a revamp of their education system is two segregated states.


In addition, you should closely read the following article before you reply:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0304/mowbray_2004_03_26.php3

seg·re·gate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sgr-gt)
v. seg·re·gat·ed, seg·re·gat·ing, seg·re·gates
v. tr.
To separate or isolate from others or from a main body or group. See Synonyms at isolate.

(Dictionary.com)

Fact: The amount of suicide bombers coming from within Israel can be counted on one hand. You were a good boy and proved this one yourself.

Fact: Since Gaza has been fenced, the amount of suicide bombers coming from Gaza to Israel can be counted on one hand. You may retrieve this one on your own as well.

Fact: You fail to respond to my arguments and provide very, very poor replies. You consistently attempt to change the subject.

Considering I agree with David's arguments does not mean that I have no arguments. It means that I find it pointless to rewrite what he has written so beautifully.

Let me sum up my points neatly for you, so you don't have to spread the subject further:

Point 1: The Palestinian education system is the root of violence.
Point 2: The only temporary solution available before a revamp of their education system is two segregated states.


In addition, you should closely read the following article before you reply:
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/0304/mowbray_2004_03_26.php3



Hi Phoenix, good to see you on this board.

I gotta to to Haifa univ, math class till 4 but just one point fo Uncediced:
Kushim is the biblical term of people coming from the land of Kush, which is the large territory below sudan. Get an education.

And what Phoenix was saying about segregation is for BOTH sides to be separated, not Israelis from Palestiniens of vice versa.

"I don’t expect tha palestiniens to sit back, but you expect Israelis to. Palestiniens were offered more than they ever could dream of,

You mean Bantustans? Have you actually seen the "dream"? Please if you are going to rely on CNN to tell you it was a "dream" for the Pals. then you are indeed a lost cause. "



Lol you only quoted half my sentence... The rest was "they could have gotten more from continued negotiations". Sad, so when you have no argument to give, you misquote people? why am I not surprised...


When trying to defend yourself against my accusations you said you have no "reason" to be an anti-semite cause it only helps us (jews)... Funny, try reading it a few times and if you dont get it ill translate:

"being an anti-semite helps jews, so its the last thing I would want to be"

You just proved my point.
Thanks :o

"being an anti-semite helps jews, so its the last thing I would want to be"
omg... i'm gonna save this for future arguments
lol

the thing about 17 year olds, it is so easy to trip them over their own words

"being an anti-semite helps jews, so its the last thing I would want to be"

So under this argument, Hitler was good because he allowed the Jews to get a homeland? Im sure the jews would rather have stayed in Europe and had their families back.

Q: What do palestianians want?[/U]
A: [U]To explode and die, go to heaven and get 72 virgins

Solution: A small neutron bomb should be exploded in Gaza to make all their dreams of going to heaven come true. This would solve the problem of terrorism as well as grant "martyrdom" to all those wanting palestinian. Since neutron bombs dont leave radiation this will not damage the environment and contaminate it for years. They will all be happy in heaven with their 72 virgins singing praises to Allah. :D

To separate or isolate from others or from a main body or group. See Synonyms at isolate.


I hope to detect a brain here, separate based on what then? Hello...brain? You separate because they are Arab. This is racist in its core; you know it as well as everyone else does. It is unfortunate you are too ignorant not to see it.

Fact: The amount of suicide bombers coming from within Israel can be counted on one hand. You were a good boy and proved this one yourself.

It is completely relevant and completely destroys your assertions of educational systems. He was taught as an Israeli student and yet he went ahead a killed his fellow Israeli's. This is indicative of a feeling of injustice which does exist. You seem to neglect the most basic form of logic; every effect has its cause. You want to get rid of the bombers, then get rid of the cause. And no the "teworists" are not the cause; they are merely the reaction to it. ;) If you so emotionally retarded to actually go against basic logic and claim that cause = effect you are indeed a lost cause.

Fact: Since Gaza has been fenced, the amount of suicide bombers coming from Gaza to Israel can be counted on one hand. You may retrieve this one on your own as well.

One attack is enough to show that it has failed. Your point being?

Fact: You fail to respond to my arguments and provide very, very poor replies. You consistently attempt to change the subject.

If I see one I'll debate it, all I see is screaming, emotional tirades.

Considering I agree with David's arguments does not mean that I have no arguments. It means that I find it pointless to rewrite what he has written so beautifully.

David eh?

Point 1: The Palestinian education system is the root of violence.

Unsubstantiated at best, so no you have not proven this. Frankly I have proven otherwise.

Point 2: The only temporary solution available before a revamp of their education system is two segregated states.

Alas...Racism.

Sad, so when you have no argument to give, you misquote people? why am I not surprised...

Obviously I gave an argumentation; the lack of cognitively was on your side. What did I say that was actually lacking an argument? Do you know what an argument is by any chance?

"being an anti-semite helps jews, so its the last thing I would want to be"

You were talking about morphing quotes you little shitake:

[QUOTE]Do you think I am so stupid as to be "Anti-Semitic" when that is what makes Israel exist today?

Where did I say Jew? Israel+Zionism does not = Jew. Indoctrinated little fool… Look it’s the biggest anti-Semites in the world:

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/media/Gruber/GruberSlides.htm

You Axes and your Zionist bed fellows are the true anti-Semites. But of course you don’t know it because you can’t even read properly. Read your Idol (if you can), Herzl, see what he says about Anti-Semitism, you’ll love it. That is what your beloved sacrilegious state, Israel is based on. So live in Israel and live on the corpses of Jewry.

You just proved my point.
Thanks :o

Ditto, you can’t read…

You ppl want to see anti-semitism?

those monkeys in the picture there don't support israel because it's not a religious state.

http://www.nkusa.org/Activities/Demonstrations/29July03/speak2.jpg

Those monkeys, written by the uber anti-Semite, otheadp! So before you start talking and editing my words, Axes look at your brothers before you dare look at me.

the thing about 17 year olds, it is so easy to trip them over their own words

It was sure was oth, it sure was...

nico, you use the "Zionist != Jew" argument but it doesn't conceal your racism whatsoever. it is a common method for anti-semites to protect themselves against criticism

me calling them 'monkeys' had nothing to do with them being Jewish
but i see you jumping on it anyway to excuse your own hate and racism

Martin Luther King jr. (http://christianactionforisrael.org/antiholo/ml_king.html): Anti-Zionizm = Anti-Semitism


". . . You declare, my friend, that you do not hate the Jews, you are merely 'anti-Zionist.' And I say, let the truth ring forth from the high mountain tops, let it echo through the valleys of God's green earth: When people criticize Zionism, they mean Jews--this is God's own truth.
...
"Antisemitism, the hatred of the Jewish people, has been and remains a blot on the soul of mankind. In this we are in full agreement. So know also this: anti-Zionist is inherently antisemitic, and ever will be so."

you use the "Zionist != Jew" argument but it doesn't conceal your racism whatsoever.

Funny that because I was taught this by Jews!

http://www.nkusa.org/aboutus/whatzionism.cfm

There is a difference and you don't want to admit it. Jews are not Zionists by definition.

it is a common method for anti-semites to protect themselves against criticism

Funny that millions of real Jews must be self-haters! No sorry that is Zionism, to be a Zionist is to hate your so called "monkey" past.

me calling them 'monkeys' had nothing to do with them being Jewish
but i see you jumping on it anyway to excuse your own hate and racism

It has everything to do with them being Jewish, why else would you call them monkeys? Because of their appearance obviously you anti-Semitic, and Arab racist pig.

millions of real Jews must be self-haters!
not millions. maybe a few thousands or ten-thousands at most, if we're talking about Neturei Karta here

they are self haters

why else would you call them monkeys?
because they support Arafat and want to completely dismantle Israel.
the leader of Neturei Karta actually went up to Muqata and shook hands with the arch-murderer himself!
what is he if not a monkey?

but i love them anyway for being Jewish, and pity them for their self hatred

The really interesting question, would be not what the average palestine wants, but what the average israeli wants, because their government has the most millitary muscle in the area.

I would agree that millitant groups like Hamas and Jewish settlers are a big showstopper for reaching any kind of respectable peace.

not millions. maybe a few thousands or ten-thousands at most, if we're talking about Neturei Karta here
they are self haters

Have you actually read Herzl? If you did you wouldn't be saying these things. These ppl are following the teachings of the Torah and Talmud it is you the Zionist atheists who are putting their religion in jeopardy. Being Jewish is religious, and cultural not race based.

because they support Arafat and want to completely dismantle Israel.

They don't want Israel to exist either, and for reason. The reason... because they are religious Jews!

the leader of Neturei Karta actually went up to Muqata and shook hands with the arch-murderer himself!

So? He is not allowed to meet him?

the average Israeli wants an end to hostilities and peace through negotiations

Frankly there is no purpose, and I think that MLK thing is a lie. I think hype talked about it before.

About MLK's quote:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=32480&page=1&pp=20

and oth you knew it was a lie, and still posted it. Whoa! What a intellectual gap in credibility.

oth ....behave yourself

from your link, nico


In truth, King appears never to have made any public comment about Zionism per se; and the only known statement he ever made on the topic, made privately to a handful of people, is a far cry from what he is purported to have said in the so-called “Letter to an Anti-Zionist friend.”



"appears to be", "only known statement"...

and the source is not credible

another quote from the same link:


...we are burdened with charlatans like those at the ADL...


ADL is the most respected Jewish federation in the world

man, you call this a refutation? grow up

pothead:

why not move the faux "jewish" state to the slavik region, or better still maybe somewhere in Russia eh Oth?
That'd be closer to home, wouldn't it??

;)

pothead:

why not move the faux "jewish" state to the slavik region, or better still maybe somewhere in Russia eh Oth?
That'd be closer to home, wouldn't it??

;)

Is that supposed to be shrewd? :bugeye:

I'm not sure I understand by what you mean by "shrewd" dear chap.
I'm assuming you mean to say "Is that supposed to be funny", inwhich case I would say yes.

Much truth is often spoken in jest.

Israel v Palestine, the match no one wants to miss! Get your friends round, shout at the screen, support your favourite team! The two most persecuted religions in the world get to slug it out, round for round. Will you support the tormented Jews, their well-earned land of peace afflicted by the deadly arabs, or the wrongfully evicted Palestinians, brutalised in their own country? Tune in to your local propaganda station of choice for the latest results.

Israel v Palestine, the match no one wants to miss! Get your friends round, shout at the screen, support your favourite team! The two most persecuted religions in the world get to slug it out, round for round. Will you support the tormented Jews, their well-earned land of peace afflicted by the deadly arabs, or the wrongfully evicted Palestinians, brutalised in their own country? Tune in to your local propaganda station of choice for the latest results.


The two most persecuted religions in the world
Isr/Pally has nothing to do with religion despite the fact that this issue invariably enters into the debate.
The underlying issues regarding Isr/pal are those of:

i) A peoples right to their land
ii) The brutalisation, expulsion and persecution of said peoples from their land.
iii) The conception of a nationalistic movement in the 19th century based on faux religious rhetoric to enable peoples of Germanic/Slav origin a foothold in Palestine.
iV) The ruthless and relentless implementation of said movement by said Germanic/slav peoples to re-invent themselves as "Hebrew" thus entitling them to Arab land, getting there then persecuting the actual peoples who have actual right to that land.

Those "peoples" are jews, and 65% of them are not from Slavic or Germanix origin.

There was no nationalistic arab movement when the jews started arriving. The term Arab is racial, it was turkish land, then british land. 148,000 arabs lived there, none were expulsed illegaly.

I hope to detect a brain here, separate based on what then? Hello...brain? You separate because they are Arab.


I separate Israeli citizens from Palestinian civilians. Israeli citizens include Arabs. Hence, your flawed logic.

And no the "teworists" are not the cause; they are merely the reaction to it.

No, they are not the cause, the education system is. Until they revamp it, palestinians should be separated from Israeli citizens.

One attack is enough to show that it has failed. Your point being?
WRONG. Since 1993, over 305 suicide bombers have launched themselves against Israeli targets. One suicide bomber is third of a percent. Since I foresee no peace until their education system is revamped, a process which may take a generation or longer, I will take this suicide probability on any given day.

If I see one I'll debate it, all I see is screaming, emotional tirades.
Excuse me?


Point 1: The Palestinian education system is the root of violence.
Unsubstantiated at best, so no you have not proven this. Frankly I have proven otherwise.
I have yet to see you prove otherwise. Please, enlighten me.

Alas...Racism.
You make me laugh.

You should realize that education system does not necessarily refer to schools, period. It includes extremist clerics who literally brainwash others that wearing an explosive belt around their waist and blowing themselves up is a way to obtain martyrdom. The average suicide bomber is not necessarily a poor and desparate man/woman/boy/girl. The part the schools play in this is to educate the growing generation to hate Israel. With inbred hate, there is little chance for peace. Today's suicide bombers are not only the result of brainwashing by extremist clerics, but also the result of the Palestinian in-school hate preaching since the first intifada.

a 30-second clip (http://www.idf.il/geut/videos/video1.mpg) about what the Phoenix is talking about

and a pic (http://creative.gettyimages.com/source/ListingService/Detail.aspx?artistID=1129&imageID=15624&cs=11020%7e%7e%7e%7e%7e%7e4794%7e10891%7eZ%7e100%7 e%7eZ%7e%7e&searchPageNum=1)

how about this (http://stream.realimpact.net/rihurl.ram?file=realimpact/memri/memri_10-30-02_01.rm&screensize=double)? (stream)

another pic (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/Israel4.gif) (very graphic). what's left of a teenie-bopper suicide bomber

I separate Israeli citizens from Palestinian civilians. Israeli citizens include Arabs. Hence, your flawed logic.

But Pal citizens are Arab; why not segregate those from the settlements? They are also from that territory, I know why, they aren't Arab, oh my I see now. ;) See this same logic was used in South Africa with the Bantustans, but I did not expect you to know that.

No, they are not the cause, the education system is. Until they revamp it, palestinians should be separated from Israeli citizens.

Right that makes sense let me tell you. A terrorist organization just pops up out of no where and attacks for no reason? You don't get cause + effect obviously. Education is only a recent measure; this has been going on since the 1930's, there is much more going here then your very simplistic notion of education. Get up on the history of the region and come back k?

One attack is enough to show that it has failed. Your point being?
WRONG. Since 1993, over 305 suicide bombers have launched themselves against Israeli targets. One suicide bomber is third of a percent. Since I foresee no peace until their education system is revamped, a process which may take a generation or longer, I will take this suicide probability on any given day.

Nice, blah I hope one day it will become relevant. It has failed because third of a percent got through. In order for something to work it has to prevent something totally. What you have is no defense at all, merely psychological in nature. It’s like a soldier having a shield that lets in some arrows, yet it is a defense. Simply loving the surrenders from you.

Excuse me?

Can you read? Are you Axes?

I have yet to see you prove otherwise. Please, enlighten me.

I proved that Israeli Arabs attack Israeli's as well, proving it’s a movement more then educational. Also didn't Israel used to be in charge of edu. in the occupied territories before 1993? Yet there was an intifada in 1987, and there were suicide bombings? Interesting...

You make me laugh.

Ditto.

It includes extremist clerics who literally brainwash others that wearing an explosive belt around their waist and blowing themselves up is a way to obtain martyrdom.

Then use the English language correctly, it's called propaganda. No wonder your points aren't cognitive.

Today's suicide bombers are not only the result of brainwashing by extremist clerics, but also the result of the Palestinian in-school hate preaching since the first intifada.

Man your so simplistic, think of why this is happening. I am still waiting for that argument, and brain.

nico why are you such an arrogant little shit?

this is not highschool
be more respectful to people around here

why are you such an arrogant little shit?


I am not being arrogant, what I am showing this Phoenix character is that what he speaks has little foundation on the reality. I am still waiting for his argumentations to be supported by objective sources, and historical logic.

this is not highschool


Yet you call Jews monkeys? The mirror Oth, please look at it some time.

oth:

calling ppl arrogant shits is sooooo respectful eh?

i think you're behaving like a monkey... does that mean i'm calling Catholics monkeys?
what does it even have to do with anything???

stop acting like a pimply little teen!

objective sources, and historical logic
i happen to agree with him
you do'nt have to resort to highschool type "you have no brain" bullshit if you don't

outlandish... are you Wraith, by any chance?
just a feeling...

think you're behaving like a monkey... does that mean i'm calling Catholics monkeys?


No oth you called them (meaning plural) monkeys (plural) meaning a group of ppl. They are called monkeys by you because they are Hassidic and don't agree with your atheist Zionist ethos. You are a Anti-Semite just admit it, it's ok Oth we all know. The first step to resolution is to accept it and then try to resolve it.

happen to agree with him
you do'nt have to resort to highschool type "you have no brain" bullshit if you don't

You supporting it, supports my thesis oth. Don't hurt his argument more then it already is.

oth:

are you Wraith, by any chance?
No.
Are you?

there are other Catholics on this board who i think are monkeys
but it has nothing to do with them being Catholic

man, stop being an idiot, seriously

They are called monkeys by you because ...
and stop putting words in my mouth, speaking for me, or attaching my name to conclusions coming out of your mouth (fingers)

and stop being an arrogant shit!

there are other Catholics on this board who i think are monkeys
but it has nothing to do with them being Catholic

The difference is that you know why they are monkeys because of their personal opinions not because they are Catholic. In this instance it is obvious that you called them monkey's because you see them in a overtly and anti-Semitic tinge of being monkey's like the Nazi's did in the 1930's. It was based on their appearance, why didn't you call them human beings like they are?

man, stop being an idiot, seriously

This means literally nothing coming from you.

and stop putting words in my mouth, speaking for me, or attaching my name to conclusions coming out of your mouth (fingers)

Not from my mouth, from yours.

from the same post

Not from my mouth, from yours.
...
In this instance it is obvious that you called them monkey's because...

seriously... this is like arguing with a 17 year old
which it is

Why focus on the semantics and not on the point? You have proven that you are anti-semitic by not being able to disprove what I had written. Semantical argumentations are just too low for me sorry...

start adding "in my humble opinion" to your posts, son
and don't take your own conclusions as facts

Based on the last 3000 years history between the Jews and the rest of the world. I come to the conclusion that the
Palestinian most probably would want what the rest of the world did and the world managed to get it.

I already responded to "What do the Palestinians Want?" and won't re-iterate what I already offered.

I will add that Palestinians also wish for discussions of their plight not to be so readily and repetitively obscured under charges of anti-judeosemitism. Let's just dismiss Jew-hating as irrelevant, because hating Jews is not what the Palestinians want. Palestinian nationalists want political zionism exterminated, and for ethnic segregation of the Middle East to cease, because it brings compounding conflict and misery.

Frustration with Israelis and their supporters who refuse to address the implications of forced displacement, segregation, and subjugation of Arabs due to zionist ideology certainly inspires hatred- But focusing on this direct symptom precludes addressing the underlying problem with the character of zionism in Israel. This occurs so often that it is likely in many cases to be an intentional hedge.

Exactly my point, you cannot possibly expect peace with anyone if you do not address the cause of the problem. It's like fighting cancer by ignoring the offending cells, but simply cutting the tumor. The causes are always harder to correct, and because it is so hard. Segregationist policy occurs, and racism, then essentially ppl have the unmerited authority to question why terrorism happens to them? Fighting the effects only make it effects stronger in the future.

spoken like a true politician - so vague that you didn't really say anything

What is vague in pointing out that zionist segregation is the root of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle?

What is vague in pointing out that zionist segregation is the root of the Israeli-Palestinian struggle?

Israel's Exsistance is the root of the struggle, and since it cannot exist as a jewish state without segregation (am I spelling it right? :)) then segregation is a part of the issue. But it sounds as if to you, the opposite of segregation is the ideal solution... am I correct?

If the opposite of forced segregation is forced integration, then I don't think that is the best solution. When Israel is reformed, Jewishness will no longer have to peer at the surrounding world through gun-slits; Jewishness will find it's fuller expression in coexistence. Re-integration and reconciliation may be a complex process, but at every step a peaceful transition would certainly be far more tolerable than the present violent impasse, and a striving for normal life, with good terms among neighbors is the only "force" necessary. Israel did not spring forth on good terms with Arab coinhabitants, and working out good terms is still unfinished business.

Farther along in such a journey, it must be accepted that humanity must discard concepts like a n exclusive Homeland for the Jews, Homeland for European Africans, Homeland for Muslims, Homeland for Armenians, Homeland for Kurds, Homeland for Druze, Homeland for Atheists, Homeland for Lefthanders, etc.

Even persecuted ethnic groups need to understand: Just be yourself and mingle, or you'll drag down the whole party.

Relax, have a beer- here's one that's Kosher. Ahlan wa Sahlan. Welcome back to the Human Race.

So now jews are not a part of the human race? Amazing howmuch you can learn about People when you read between the lines.

In your opinion jews do not deserve self-determination, only palestiniens do. Because that is the root of integration. Palestiniens, having a much larger birth-rate will outnumber the jews west of the Jordan river in 5 years. There will no longer be an Israel, your'e wet dream eh? No it wont solve anything. It will just screw over another people's for palestinien "rights". They tried doing that in yugoslavia, Do you remember what happened in the 90's?

In the late 80's and into the 90's we had a sudden power vacuum, and a flareup of inter-ethnic violence. The world stepped in because of the unacceptability of ethnic cleansing, and prevented the creation of even greater divisive, festering ethnically-cleansed enclaves than we are left with now in former Yugoslavia. Was the solution perfect? No. Would it be better for the world if all ethnic groups were to hack out their own states? No. How about just persecuted people- how long do you think the list would be, and how long do you think the killing would last?

"Welcome back to the human race" as I lightheartedly expressed it should not have been interpreted as an expression motivated by a desire to dehumanize Jews. I am tempted to construe such an eagerness to spring to such a conclusion as an example of superhumanizing Jews, but I don't think it's that. I think it is a defensive reflex, a product of conditioned fear and mistrust that we all need to concertedly work on, because it interferes with normal discourse and life.

We (Arabs Jews Serbs Croats Turkish Cypriots, Greek Cypriots, etc) can be together, far more happily, without all this crap.

humanity must discard concepts like a n exclusive Homeland for the Jews, Homeland for Muslims, Homeland for Armenians, Homeland for Kurds, Homeland for Druze

hmm let's see
Jews were holocausted (somebody said "lolocaust" in the other thread. don't you just find it fucking hillerious and funny?), Armenians were holocausted, Kurds had their country literaly stolen from them in divided by 4 colonialist powers (no, not the UK. they're not the only colonialists),
are the lefthanded people being holocausted? are they being prosecuted for their lefthandedness?

as for a Muslim homeland, that's Saudi Arabia

hype, why don't we just all join hands, remove all borders and smoke a big one with all peoples. ahalan wa sahalan ya habibi

the arab invadors who took the Kurdish lands, and are still trying to take the Jewish land will never stop.
removing the border will not just lead to ... as you call "a complex process"

it will lead to a civil war and a slaughter house

we will not stand down and then in 50 years hold another holocaust memorial so people like stokes penwalt can call it lolocaust a little bit later

Mistrust? yes I do not trust your motives, but too many anti-semetic or racist comments are hidden behind liberal agendas and ideals. Your'e comment about me trying to superhumanize jews was without any basis and seems like the average defensive argument. Who knows, I might have hit too close to the truth.

About Yugoslavia. Nice words will not cover the fact that it didnt work. Everything fell apart, and there was no way of preventing it. You cannot put ethnic minorities together against their will and call it a country, its not baking, you cant mix things together. It wont work in Israel and that is beside the fact that it is unfair towards one of the minorities in the region.

can't you see, Axes, that behind the John Lennon approach (removing the borders and joining hands in dancing 'round the fire) lies a sinister motive:
the arabs (whose birthrate in the west bank and Gaza is 5.02 kids per woman) will outgrow the Jews, and whoever's still left will be killed in riots

and they have the chutzpah to call themselves "peace activists"! the hypocrisy of some people

Please substantiate, Otheadp and Axes, because I would like to know exactly where I have left the wrong impressions.

Where did I suggest "removing borders, joining hands, and dancing around the fire" and "join hands, remove all borders and smoke a big one with all peoples. ahalan wa sahalan ya habibi"? I only pointed out that ethnic segregation is unacceptable to Palestinians or to anyone, because of the enmity and violence it perpetuates. I have been reasonably pragmatic, and not pollyannish about the complexity of getting there from here.

Where did I reveal "sinister motives"? I advocate Jews living as equals throughout the mideast, and ultimately participating in desegregated and representative democratic governments. With fulll understanding that we are far from that now, it is still a much less sinister state of affairs than the present. In the last century, what was clearly sinister, and still has implications today, is the imperative that Jews should be separated out from society. If you truly believe that humans must ethnicly segregate, don't project that onto me: Come out and clearly espouse ethnic separatism for yourselves.

Where did I advocate forced integration? This would not only increase strife, it is unnecessary, because Arabs and Jews are inextricably intertwined within Israel and Palestine. Within a normalized relationship, Jews can live in anywhere Arabs live, relating just as people of varying backgrounds all over the world routinely relate.

None of these insinuated assertions on my part would contribute to the solution, or to providing for the benefit of everyone concerned what most Palestinians want: Normal life.

I think that many of Israelis just want to live in peace, preferably with the Palestinians not bitching about them in any way, for some Israelis killing off all the Palestinians seems like the only viable way of accomplishing this.

As for Palestinians I think many just want Israelis gone or dead. Some want peace over death or removal.

But until actual statistically relevant surveys are mentioned all of this is just speculation, and that count for everyone else that posted!

I think that many of Israelis just want to live in peace, preferably with the Palestinians not bitching about them in any way, for some Israelis killing off all the Palestinians seems like the only viable way of accomplishing this.

As for Palestinians I think many just want Israelis gone or dead. Some want peace over death or removal.

But until actual statistically relevant surveys are mentioned all of this is just speculation, and that count for everyone else that posted!


The most extremist of Israelis (like Kach, and Moledet) dream of a "willfull transfer" where palestiniens are payed or given other incentives to move to jordan. The number of Israelis supporting this stood at an average 5-6% of population before the intefadah. In a recent servey I read in Maariv 2 months ago, it stands on 15% now. About mass killing? I dont think anyone thinks of it as a viable option, lest to say moral.

ethnic segregation
buzz words
ethnic segregation is what people call "countries"
are you familiar with the terms?
and it's not ethnic segregation, it's national segregation
israel has its arab minority, and they're staying put.

actually they're offered to change their nationality without even relocating anywhere
something they don't want to do.

Where did I suggest "removing borders, joining hands, and dancing around the fire" and "join hands, remove all borders and smoke a big one with all peoples. ahalan wa sahalan ya habibi"?
aren't you advocating a one-state-solution?

Where did I reveal "sinister motives"? I advocate Jews living as equals throughout the mideast
Jews living as equals means Jews having a country just like the Muslims / Arabs have their more than 20 states
or are you saying Jews aren't equal enough? they don't deserve their own country?
and no i'm not talking about Jews as a religion, but of Jewish descent and culture

your motives are sinister because you want to dismantle the Jewish state, and destroy Jewish Self Determination, mr. Iluminati
Arab self determination is a natural "right", while a Jewish one is a natural "wrong"

why not unite India and Pakistan too? their "ethnic segregation" is wrong too?

this moral house of cards you live in completely disintegrates by the slightest wind of on-the-ground realities

Thank you, and keep the statistics flowing as they provide the only correct answer.

...and I thought I was crazy.........

"ethnic segregation is what people call "countries"
"
Really? OK, I see you are going to modify that, because you know that's BS.

"it's not ethnic segregation, it's national segregation"
But zionism is ethnic segregation. Israeli immigration treats Arabs and Jews very differently.

"Jews living as equals means Jews having a country just like the Muslims / Arabs have their more than 20 states
or are you saying Jews aren't equal enough? they don't deserve their own country?"
I can think of no ethnic group that deserves its own exclusive country. Jews belong in every country, especially Arab ones.

"and no i'm not talking about Jews as a religion, but of Jewish descent and culture
Ethnic cleansing.

"your motives are sinister because you want to dismantle the Jewish state, and destroy Jewish Self Determination, mr. Iluminati"
Illuminati?? I want for Israel to reform into the modern pluralistic norm. And not just Israel, but any Arab states, any states, officially enforcing ethnic segregation. It really put a damper on things here in the USA, I can tell you.

"Arab self determination is a natural "right", while a Jewish one is a natural "wrong""
A ridiculous statement.

"why not unite India and Pakistan too? their "ethnic segregation" is wrong too?"
Neither are ethnicly segregated.

"this moral house of cards you live in completely disintegrates by the slightest wind of on-the-ground realities"
That reads like a bad fortune cookie. Oh, well. Shalom.

I came late to this thread so bear with me as I catch up.

First I want to say that much of this is based on who is right and who is wrong. Unfortunatly there is no clear line. Life is never so simple that a group like Isreal or Palistine is totaly right. The atrocities that are occuring there are a product of both sides.

Another problem I see is that the connection between segragation and racism is not established. History has proven this to be true and an ineffective solution. It is rasist to segrigate based on race. That is a fact. How can you refute that. In America we experenced what that leads to. One side will inevatably belive themselves as the better race and the other will be opressed.

Phenox
"Point 2: The only temporary solution available before a revamp of their education system is two segregated states."

This is where segrigation will ultimatly fail. The problem lies in the fact that both sides will not be treated equally and one will suffer at the expense of the other. You cant revamp an the education system if the two people are segragated. How can two people lean to accept eachother if they cannot live together. Teaching them in seperate institutions will only increase there racism and bias.

Unregistered
It is completely relevant and completely destroys your assertions of educational systems. He was taught as an Israeli student and yet he went ahead a killed his fellow Israeli's. This is indicative of a feeling of injustice which does exist. You seem to neglect the most basic form of logic; every effect has its cause.

Your logic here is flawed. Just because one person desides to be a suiside bomber does not make the whole system wrong. Some people are simply crazy. There is no way around it. The unibomber was crazy, Dommers was crazy, and many others. There was no real cause behind their actions. Sure, some things could be said to have helped caused it but there are many others going through simular circumstance that are not murderes ect. They Had some screws loose in the head.

"Fact: Since Gaza has been fenced, the amount of suicide bombers coming from Gaza to Israel can be counted on one hand. You may retrieve this one on your own as well."

Unregistered
One attack is enough to show that it has failed.

...

Nice, blah I hope one day it will become relevant. It has failed because third of a percent got through. In order for something to work it has to prevent something totally. What you have is no defense at all, merely psychological in nature. It’s like a soldier having a shield that lets in some arrows, yet it is a defense.

Your logic here is flawed here as well. One attack getting through is not a case of a failure. To use you analogy of a shield: No shield stops 100% of the arrows fired at a person but 80 - 90% coverage is good enough because it means most of the time you are safe. 100% is an impossibility so you do the best you can. It's like saying a drug will save 999 out of a 1000 people from cancer and then throwing it away because that 1000th person died. The drug must not work, somebody died.

However I do agree that the wall will not work for another reason. While it seems to have reduced the attacks for now, it will ultimatly increase them by fostering hated even more.


Otheadp
the average Israeli wants an end to hostilities and peace through negotiations

That is true but the problem is their leaders do not. The average Israli also want to solve the problem with nogatiations that favor Isralis (who would't) but that wont work. There has to be a middle ground. Of cource the same goes for the Palistinians only their leaders seem even more hellbent to keep the killing going.

Axes
Palestiniens, having a much larger birth-rate will outnumber the jews west of the Jordan river in 5 years. There will no longer be an Israel, your'e wet dream eh? No it wont solve anything. It will just screw over another people's for palestinien "rights". They tried doing that in yugoslavia, Do you remember what happened in the 90's?

So? Just because a group tends to have more children than onother that does not mean you need ot opress them. If that were true than America had better get hopping on the Mexicans because their families are WAY larger than the average American white family. Numbers is besides the point anyway. If they learn to get along then how many are getting along does not matter. However numbers will mean a LOT if hate is allowed to continue to foster. Even with support and weapons you will not win if sorly outnumbered.

Axes
You cannot put ethnic minorities together against their will and call it a country, its not baking, you cant mix things together. It wont work in Israel and that is beside the fact that it is unfair towards one of the minorities in the region.

No, not against their will but you can mix them willingly. It does and has worked.

Welcome to Sciforums, I Am F_AQ2. Those are some good points, and you need no "catching up" from my view. I invite our zionists to apply comparable effort to explaining their perspectives, with, please, a bit less emphasis on swipes about anti-judeosemitism and sinister plots to push all Jews into the sea, because you are the only ones casting the conversation into combattive tones.

I'm sure the pro-Israeli camp has more substance to convey than epithets and fear: Palestinians in the majority are not squirming to sink their fangs into the necks of every Jew, if only their wretched, crazed hordes manage to squeeze through or claw under the multiplying walls of their Ghettos. Present Israeli policy is, however, certain to foment violent behavior in a few, and there are alternatives. In order to enable the alternatives, it first must be understood that the overwhelming majority of Palestinians under Israeli occupation are nothing more or less than typical people, living in unacceptable circumstances, who want for themselves and their children the same basic choices and opportunities in life as everyone has a human right to expect.

Your logic here is flawed

Well maybe but as is yours:

Some people are simply crazy.

Why does that person have to be crazy? Was Jesus crazy? Most suicide bombers are rational ppl who are sick and tired of the situation they live in. Lawyers are suicide bombers now, are they mental too? What Phoenix was trying to say was that these bombers are a result of Pal educational systems, completely ignoring the fact that those taught under the Israeli system have become bombers as well. All I was trying to say was that this is not educational in nature, it is a movement.

There was no real cause behind their actions.

So you are saying that the bombers just blow themselves up for no reason at all? Again cause = effect, you are merely looking at the latter.

They Had some screws loose in the head.

This is a completely unfounded and ethnocentric view on it. Your view is flawed indeed.

One attack getting through is not a case of a failure.

By definition it is... and in practice.