Think about it first.
At what point is an entity human or not human?

I would say if your physically of the Homo sapien specie, then you wouldn't be defined as human. Although you could wonder about Sub-species and evolution/de-evolution.

A Programmed computer could never be human, it could learn how to mimic a human but never be exactly like us.

A computer(network) that has the perception of a human mapped to it (his/her lifetime) would have perhaps a "cloned" entity unless the very energies of the individual were used to power the thought processes, leaving no wasted energy or missing thoughts.

(although the thoughts and memories are stored within the genetics of the brain, but would rapidly become decayed on death)

If they were to become apart of that machine, you would have to have them understand that for the rest of their days they are housed in a no longer biological system, and there are so many things that people take for granted that they can no longer do and would have to get use to. (sex, using a toliet, washing, drinking, hunger, sleeping)

That itself would probably mean that a system would need a matrix system for them to exist (A recreation of a world) and this would then bring about a truthful understanding to someone being a "god" like being through a worlds creation, and reincarnation.

(although I still say that statuettes of "gods" were just Logo-types to take many different teachings and put them under a symbolic body that people could relate to. (A bit like a company logo)

To my mind you're human if you've got a DNA-based brain that conforms to human specifications. That's a lousy definition; sorry. What it means is if your brain's human, so are you.

Of course, this definition is likely to change as technology advances. Eventually, I reckon we'll have to legislate to protect entities that are of human-level intelligence or greater. At that point, any definition of humanity would be pointless.

Originally posted by rde
To my mind you're human if you've got a DNA-based brain that conforms to human specifications. That's a lousy definition; sorry. What it means is if your brain's human, so are you.


Monkeys,gorilla etc are also having DNA-based brain as far as i know,every brain is DNA based isnt it?so are they all Humans?or i have got it all wrong?

Originally posted by zion

Monkeys,gorilla etc are also having DNA-based brain as far as i know,every brain is DNA based isnt it?so are they all Humans?or i have got it all wrong? That's why I added the qualifier 'conforms to human specifications', ie, anyone who has a human brain, a human being someone who's the offspring of other humans. This definition could get really circular, so I'm going to stop now.

What happened to the simplest test of all?

If you breed with it fertile, recognizable offspring result.

Sure would get rid of a lot of hogwash.

Take care. :cool:

If you transferred your consciousness into another human body, you'd still be human right? If you transferred your consciousness into an artificially created human (maybe genetically engineered) you're still human right? But if you transfer your mind into a machine, are you still human?

What about this: If you get a cybernetic implant that, say, enhances your sight or hearing, you're still human right? What about enhancing your other senses? What if you keep getting cybernetic implants to enhace your body? At what point are you no longer human? When you have more machine than organics?
Why?

Originally posted by Alpha
If you get a cybernetic implant that, say, enhances your sight or hearing, you're still human right? What about enhancing your other senses? What if you keep getting cybernetic implants to enhace your body? At what point are you no longer human? When you have more machine than organics?
Why? That's why I said the issue of a definition of humanity will become meaningless. We speak of 'human rights' at the moment because humans are the only entities with whom we can communicate at an intelligent level. If cybernetic implants are used to enhance (or sustain) human cognitive abilites, there's no point in talking about a definition of humanity; there may be other entities worthy of consideration. More specifically, there may be other entities who can complain when mistreated, and do something about it.

But what is it we think is "human"? The more i think about it and check my own programming the more i must suspect i am some sort of AI run amok.

What consitutes human?

Entities in this forum who interact with each other for the next 100,000 years. After that who knows....

I would say that "Human" definition is same for an upload,isnt it?

they are same people except that they are in another universe...

bye!

Ok this may seem like a really simple answer, and I'm sorry. I think what defines us as a human is our self-awareness. Other species may be aware of their surroundings, but we are the only species that can take that information and develop an idea or thought about what is going on.

A chimpanzee recognizes it’s reflection in water.

Originally posted by Alpha
Think about it first.
At what point is an entity human or not human?


The point at which an entity uses only perfect reasoning providing perfect solutions is the point at which that entity is something beyond (or less than) human.

The point at which an entity is never again driven by pro-survival instincts is the point at which that entity is something other than human.

The point at which an entity has no more questions regarding its own identity and has lost comprehension of why such questions would ever have been important in the first place is the point at which an entity has lost touch with one of the most common purposes for survival known to the human species.

When a human has lost the ability or desire to sense or manifest all the different aspects of "I", it has become non-human.

What about aliens? Intelligent aliens would have some of those abilities, yet they would not be considered human....

I could have been really finnicky on this subject, I could have stated.

Human is a Species.

If you as a Human were mapped into a computer, then you would be an "Assimulated of a Human" a simulation Facsimile.

If you were to move your consciousness across to a clone, you are a "Cloned Assimulation of a Human".

If your clone was "Human" in build, then you would be a "Human with a Cloned Consciousness".

Thats pretty much my understanding, As for if you have implants. Your still human but depending on what sort of implant you have would term you. i.e.
a Whole limb = Cyborg,
an inplant to enhance sight = Cybernaut,
A human consciousness in a robot = Android,
A human consciousness in a computer = a Simulated Human consciousness (Ghost in the Shell)

Hey Stryder,

Human is Genus isnt it?:confused:...
the neanderthal Man was also Human,only that species was different.(I think so,could be wrong)And he was called Homo Sapiens Neanderthelis...



bye!

What constitutes human is Intelegence and Kindness. Self-awareness and self-awareness is only a result of tought. Thought itself driven by intelligence.

Beside Intelligence there are also sign of human, and also other thingking living creature: Passion/Desire and Instink/Nature.

Check out this thread (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5578)

Suppose someday in the future we can build robot with sufficient Intelligence and kindness, no wonder if someone says to the robot: "You are more human than real human!"

Monkeys also are intelligent,does that point to anything Human?...well i dont think so.The only thing special about Humans is that they are most evolved Genus on the planet.and most Evolved Species.I also would consider Snakes evolved.there is nothing special about humans.they Belong to Kingdom Animalia.had it been that other animal would have evolved better than Humans,then they would have also argued about their specialities...

A Robot with intelligence of a human(Like downloaded from an upload)Will be an Android,not Human,as he is not the biological product.Clones on the other hand are a result of biological manipulation,hence they"ll be known as Humans only...


bye!

Originally posted by zion
Monkeys also are intelligent,does that point to anything Human?

Apes not intelligent at all. Chimp, the most 'intelligent' creatures before human, are only "monkey see monkey do". Their intelligence in not part of their 'destiny'. If you train a chimp until he smart enough, then you let go in the woods, It's kid can't have it's knowldge. They don't have absoult intelligence.

Like i've posted somewhere... There are several elements drives creatures action:

1)Nature law.
2)Instink.
3)Passion.
4)Intelligence.

Viruses, bacteria and plants lives based on natural law. Simple mobile creatures such as insect, which don't have centralized brain --only spreaded neural system--, act based on their instink AND natural law. Animal who have centralized brain have passion, instink, and still follow natural law. They can 'want' something, or 'fear' of something. But they don't have intuition and/or ideas. They don't know what are 'right', 'wrong', 'shy' and 'mercy' -- unless it's part of it's instink, such as mercy to thir baby. Any research using chimp to do something is only use it's passion to drive it's action, such as to get bait. Goat f*ck his own mom. It's right animal, but wrong for human.

Human have all of those thing. We can use the intelligence to controll 3 other things. Results of usefull intelegence are self-awarenes, decide 'right' or 'wrong' --in wide aspect--, idea and intuition.
Since passion the most complex element before intelligence, someone might loose control of it. A very evil criminal who seems only follow his passion without ability to use his intellegence, can be considered as animal, even his species is still human. The humanity is ability to use their intelligence to control theirself. So... the conclusion of 'what is constitutes human' is Intelligent and kindness.

If we'll gonna buld a robot with humanity, don't forget to put those things. We can use random value to simulate 'intuition', assumption, or idea to be decided in it's intelligence.

Hi Ismu,
As Far as I remember the experiments carried out in MIT,that i have talked about in various threads about remote sensing etc,used Apes as guniea pigs because of their relatively higher intelligence.
Intelligence starts developing from Nematoda,isnt it?after all what is intelligence,its all about the art of survival,adaptation,better usage of tools avalable.its just due to neural network present and as far as i know most Vertebreta members have neural networks built inside their brains...

I would again say Kindness is nothing but a part of intelligence itself Ismu.After all its just a pattern developed in the neural net,isnt it?its a pre-programmed notion.

In the technical context, yes. Intelligence is ability to process information, and create decisions as it's results.

But if we talk about Intelegence which is belong to human being, --as you mentioned to implant into robot to make it as 'human' as posible--, we must see the 'Human Intelegence' itself from philosophical view. Kindness here is the factor that the intelligence itself able to create 'humanity', not just a simple decision like apes does.

Ability to boldly go where no one has gone before?....

Couldnt get you Ismu...
about Kindness...????:confused::confused:

bye!

Hi KM,
Remember Joke about sentence that you just spoke?
To boldly go where no man...err...one has gone before...;)...



bye!

Originally posted by zion
Couldnt get you Ismu...
about Kindness...????:confused::confused:
bye!

Intellegence = processing information ( + intuition);
Kindness = humanity = compassion = simpathy = blah... blah... blah... (take a look at English thesaurus!);

Human=Body (including brain) + spirit (if you believe) + Intellignce + Kindness;

So... Kindness = a 'sign' to determine difference 'human' with other 'stuffs' which may also have body, spirit and intelligence;

Got it?

kindness and other emotions are probably very difficult to reproduce but I believe it can be done.

kindness, for example, is just a reaction to what a person thinks is the right thing to do, Kindness is a reaction that has been forced into peoples minds because of society, kind of like instructions that have been coded into computers.

say that a person lived thier whole life in a fake world where everyone tried to kill everyone else, the person would have nearly no kindness or feel no pity, this is because it has been forced into the persons mind that it is normal to kill innocent people, just like it had never had been coded into a computer

you become human when you become so complex of a computer, so sophisticated a mashine, that you forget that you are simply a processor of input.

Processor of Inputs,are we talking instaneous inputs here?

We are more like sequential circuits.(Combinational+Memory devices for feed back)...

isnt it?



bye!

it is.

since efore we are born, we aquire input from the outside world and all of our decisions in life are simply output calculated based on the input we recieved.

Emotions are nothing but information processed in a certain fuzzy pattern. All the algorithms are out there to duplicate the process except the hardware to create the AI.

Emotions are Fuzzy...


excellent thought...



bye!
:cool:

you become human when you become so complex of a computer, so sophisticated a mashine, that you forget that you are simply a processor of input.

elegant. so what happens when we once again realize that we are just "processors of input", do we lose our humanity?

:p

-Xenu

Maybe that's what sentience is: becoming more than simply a processor of inputs.

Emotions are Fuzzy

I don't agree with this much. Emotions are very precise, quick and reflexive, it's only when reason tries to measure them, when it becomes fuzzy. Actually I find reason to be fuzzy more often. My image memories are often fuzzy, but the emotions that come with them are usually very "vivid".

Also there's a lot of support that a lot of reason judgements are confabulated from emotions.

I have a feeling I just opened up a big can of worms ;)

-Xenu

Hi Xenu,
Welcome to Science Fourms.
do you see star Trek,if you saw the first contact movie,you might remember a scene where DATA finds spot(a cat)in enterprise's wrekage,
he cries as well as laughs,a fuzzy picture isnt it?

Okay,let us take an example to understand what KMguru said.Take for instance our own anger,it has ranges.several degrees.a little lesser anger will be irritaion or something like that.a more(content wise) will be something else.it just depends upon the situation to which brain is exposed to.so instead of any preciseness in emotions we have several varying levels of emotional responses to a particular situation.
i am sorry,since i am busy currently with my own college project,so i may not be able to respond...



bye!

I have designed "fuzzy systems" for pH control and other chemical processes.

Google "Fuzzy Logic" you will understand....

Thanks kmguru, that makes a lot more sense. My argument was in a totally different realm of thinking, not computer algorithms and such. Ahhh, semantics.

I love words. Are we to assume that the word human is well defined and we only need to discover it's meaning ? Ok so may be not the word, how about the idea behind the word ? Is this the same thing for everyone. - well dang, no, it is not the same, it has a lot in common and when we dont care about the difference meanings we each have we can use the word and the idea. But in this question we do care and the word becomes useless.

We can ask "What is it to be the decendant of or a parent or any combintaionn of the above." That might devide the world up into groups of things that are related. But this gets into the philosophy of what can and cannot be separated. As my great gran parents are pushing up daisies. Does that make the earth human as is is made up in part of my grandparants ? When does the matter that was my granparents cease to be human and become just part of the earth ? We can pick a member Einstein or the common ancestor and then ask what does it take to belong to this group. Easy to answer mostly. But if someone has a heart from a pig, does that make the rest of the pigs human ? <grin>

The point is that what we think when we think of a human is not precise. So we can not precisely answer what is human. What we can try to do is agree on a precise answer. But is there a precise agree-able something that makes the difference between human and non human ? - So far we have not found/ agreed on one.

Dont tell that to a computer - it may smoke like they do in movies....the keyboard sparking and all.... :D