I feel a need to talk about that, since people don't seem to understand what "Christian" means.

First of all, the word "Christian" very clearly defines itself:
"Christ- ian"

It means those who follow the teachings of Christ. It also means those who are filled with the God's Spirit. But let's go slowly and point by point.

The meaning of the word "Christ":
No, Christ is not Jesus' surname...:D
The word "Christ" is from the greek word "kristos" which means being anointed. The deep meaning of the word "kristos" is being filled with the Spirit of God. This is what happens when we accept Christ in our hearts and become a Christian, we are filled with the Spirit of God.

The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that? Very simple, because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other. So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us. In the words of Christ Himself:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

The parable says that the Old Testament and the New one cannot be mixed together.

How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?

IGalatians 2:20
"20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "

1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

How many does? Not many, unfortunatly. Let's see how Christ is...

John 8:1-11
"1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus didn't condemn her, did He? Neither He condemns you or anyone that sins.

Matthew 9:11-13
"11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." "

Jesus came for the sinners. He came for you and me, and everybody. He came so that we might be justified by faith and not by our works:

Galatians 3:11
"11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." "

He died for our sins. His Love saves everyone that accepts His gift, the gift of His Love.

1 Peter 4:8
"8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. "

He died for us, for our sins.

John 15:13
"13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "

If He didn't Love us, He would never die for us.

A Christian should be just like this. This is what we call "walk by the Spirit", "the fruits of the Spirit" and "being clothed in a new self":

Galatians 5:16-25
"16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. "

"Living by the Spirit" is being justified by faith, being forgiven.
"Walking by the Spirit" is putting this faith into practice and being like Him.

Ephesians 4:20-24
"20 But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22 that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24 and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth."

What God wants for us and gives to us:
Ephesians 3:14-19
"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,
16 that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love,
18 may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth,
19 and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. "

James 1:17
"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

James 1:5
"5 But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him."

And of course, above everything, God wants us to be saved, so that we can become like Him.

First of all, the word "Christian" very clearly defines itself:
"Christ- ian"

Who's Ian? :D

The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.


So.... i can become christian but believe in the hindu god and your god wont hold it against me? Cool... If that's the case might aswell just stay agnostic/athiest etc. who cares? If that is the case do you really have to preach so much?

Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that?

Very simple... It was written at different times.

because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other.

Oh i see... So one of them is talking about a different god? So.... there's more than one god? Cool.. Man your arguments get better every day.

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"
The parable says that the Old Testament and the New one cannot be mixed together.


Where does it say that? Answer= Nowhere. It says and means whatever your mind wants it to mean. Next week i'm sure it will mean something completely different. He's probably just having a whinge at all the local tramps about their dress sense.

How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?

Dead? Ah no wonder. Or do you mean while he was alive? Oh i see... so consider yourself right and everyone else wrong and preach to them.... Then realise later on that jews suck and completely change your belief while staying completely right while everyone else is wrong?

"20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. "

I'M SPARTACUS!!

1 John 4:16
"16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. "

How many does? Not many, unfortunatly. Let's see how Christ is...

How many does what? Loves? I can guarantee you pretty much every person on the face of this earth 'loves'.

"1 But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives.
2 Early in the morning He came again into the temple, and all the people were coming to Him; and He sat down and began to teach them.
3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus didn't condemn her, did He? Neither He condemns you or anyone that sins.

I know someone who has been adulterous and she came to me for a beer. I did not condemn her.... Worship me... Just because someone is compassionate and understanding doesn't mean they're god.

"11 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to His disciples, "Why is your Teacher eating with the tax collectors and sinners?"
12 But when Jesus heard this, He said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick.
13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners." "

Man you imagine days like that..... If you were friendly to tax collectors you'd have a lot to gain. Regardless of all this wonderful text we can see a compassionate loving man. That might have been rare in those days but it no way means he's god.

esus came for the sinners. He came for you and me, and everybody. He came so that we might be justified by faith and not by our works:

He didn't come for me... I wasn't even born yet.

"11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." "

He died for our sins. His Love saves everyone that accepts His gift, the gift of His Love.

Saves everyone?? What is there to save? There are no rules with god, according to your very first quote. Thus being evil, sinning, or being anyway you like to be is inconsequential and Jesus appearance is pointless. I also resent the fact you seem to regard jesus as the only loving, compassionate person on the planet. I'm sure there were many, and i know there are many now. You hear of one and hold him above all others and assume he's not human. Really breaks down the human worth.

1 Peter 4:8
"8 Above all, keep fervent in your love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. "

He died for us, for our sins.


He died because the Romans felt like killing him- same as Spartacus, same as many many other people.

John 15:13
"13 "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends. "

If He didn't Love us, He would never die for us.

Sounds very much to me like he died for his friends.. Same as Spartacus.

A Christian should be just like this. This is what we call "walk by the Spirit", "the fruits of the Spirit" and "being clothed in a new self":

Fine. Die for me please, i've sinned.

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

No rules heh.......OOPS! sounds very much like a threat to me. I hate being threatened... tell him to come here i'll crucify him aswell.

"14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name,

every family in heaven? Proof of aliens!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Woohoooooo. So easy to intepret an old book any way you please.

"17 Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. "

Here they're talking about the sun. Even at such an early period the people would know the power and meaning of the sun. Look at how many sun gods were believed before this time... The sun was always there in the sky- making things grow, giving life, giving warmth and happiness.. Father of lights= sun. Imagine you hold a candle vs the sun? The father of all lights would be the sun. Unlike the moon, the sun does not vary in shape, and unlike the moon the sun does not cause darkness. You shout God! When in fact it's more substantial to look upon this text as speech about the sun.

And of course, above everything, God wants us to be saved, so that we can become like Him.

God wants? That means there's ways to fail? Which means there's rules. You clearly stated THERE ARE NO RULES. Obviously you are mistaken.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
Have you ever wondered why the Bible is divided between "New Testament" and "Old Testament"? Why is that? Very simple, because they are two separate things that don't relate to each other. So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us. In the words of Christ Himself:
How does a Christian should behave:
Like Christ. Why?


Truthseeker,

I see some contradictions above. If Christianity have absolutely no rules to follow, then why even worship god, which is a rule, first commandment, and why act like Jesus, which is a big rule, because to describe how he acted, you need to write a book of rules, and why need a new testament, if no rules out of it apply. Does god say, the bible is given to you for your reading enjoyement anywhere?

Truthseeker,

What about heaven and hell? I have always been disturbed with the belief that there is a place where God condemns the unfaithful for eternity to live in constant pain. Doesn't Christianity preach that by not believing in God you have to go be the Devil's buttboy for all eternity?

What if I cured cancer tomorrow (not going to happen b/c I am not that smart in sciences, and I am not even currently researching the topic) and won the noble prize, and spent all my money curing everybody in the entire world. I save countless millions of people, which is certainly many millions more than Christ will ever save, and I live a moral life outside of the belief system of Christianity or ANY other faith/belief structure on this planet, would I be spending my unearthly infinity time eating BBQ with the morning star?

I saw a play one time where a group of people protested that without the love (in these term 'belief') of Jesus Christ in your heart, you aren't getting anywhere near the pearly gates. WTF??? What if you spent your entire life curing disease, providing care for the needy, educating the masses, and spreading peace, but you could care less about getting into heaven/pleasing your invisible "father"

I plan on living a moral and ethical life without the incentive of a fictional eternity of bliss. Nice try though, no rules??? There are more rules than I care to think about. I will live my life by my rules, which are dictated by logic, reason, and compassion. If I mimic something JC said, so be it, but I don't plan on being either rewarded OR punished for my actions in an afterlife...because there is no such thing

ZERO MASS

Only because there are no rules to follow for Christians that doesn't mean that we should worship another God or keep sinning. You have to take into consideration ALL that is written:

Romans 6:1-7
"1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
7 for he who has died is freed from sin. "

Besides, there IS one commandament (two, for those that don't grasp very easily the concept). But even if you don't follow, you are forgiven.

Luke 10:27
"27 And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." "

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Only because there are no rules to follow for Christians that doesn't mean that we should worship another God or keep sinning. You have to take into consideration ALL that is written:


Truth, stop for a second and listen to yourself.. Nothing to follow means nothing at all. You can't make your rules as you go like you're doing right now. Every church picks the verses they like the most and say they're following those and that no other rules apply, because Chrisitians have no rules......This creates Chaos and secularism. You end up with 100 of denominations and fellowships. That's maddness. There are marriage rules, abortion rules, death penalty rules, rape rules, rules regarding worshipping the one god, ect.....

If there are no rules, then there is no sin, no hell, no heaven, no god, no religion.....Pure and Simple.

What you don't understand is that if you are filled with the Spirit of God and you are aware of it, you will follow the Law naturally. If you are not aware of it, you will try to follow the Law anyways.

What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him. If you do that, that's enough. But if you believe that, you will follow the Law not because you HAVE TO, but because YOU LOVE GOD. We are free from the Law of sin and death, and with this freedom, we are able to go further and become like Him.

You have to know the balance. You and everyone read "no rules' and made a whole discussion about only one point and ignoread ALL the rest. That's why your view of what I wrote is so twisted.

This is the very lie satan is using to deceive people into believing they are saved in this day...so they won't look any further for God....

"The spirit of God in a man, searcheth out the deep things of God".

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What you don't understand is that if you are filled with the Spirit of God and you are aware of it, you will follow the Law naturally. If you are not aware of it, you will try to follow the Law anyways.


Cool Truthseeker, I'd suggest that you change your name to Turthfounder, because it doesn't look like you're seeking anything.

TruthSeeker:
What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him. If you do that, that's enough. But if you believe that, you will follow the Law not because you HAVE TO, but because YOU LOVE GOD.

So Joe goes out and kills a person (lets say it was a 9/11 related hate crime), spends some bullshit time in prison where he "finds christ" and dies some indeterminant time in the future. He goes to Heaven as long as he repents and accepts Jesus Christ/ the love of God?

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?

What I said about no rules is that to go to Heavens all that you need to do is to believe in Christ and accept Him.

All you need to do? Ah! That's a rule then? Oops- you're a donut.

TheVisitor,

This is the very lie satan is using to deceive people into believing they are saved in this day...so they won't look any further for God....

John 3:16
"16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. "

Romans 10:8-10
"8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. "

Do you deby the Word of God? It is YOU that is deceiving everyone.:bugeye:

heflores,

Cool Truthseeker, I'd suggest that you change your name to Turthfounder, because it doesn't look like you're seeking anything.
I search Truth from the point I know with 100% of assurance that is true.


Zero Mass,

So Joe goes out and kills a person (lets say it was a 9/11 related hate crime), spends some bullshit time in prison where he "finds christ" and dies some indeterminant time in the future. He goes to Heaven as long as he repents and accepts Jesus Christ/ the love of God?

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?
The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.


SnakeLord,

All you need to do? Ah! That's a rule then? Oops- you're a donut.
By rule I obviously meant something that you MUST do habitually.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
I search Truth from the point I know with 100% of assurance that is true.
Do you continually speak out your ass, or is it only for us?

The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.
So, everyone sins. Everyone's sins are forgiven if they believe in christ. Yet you are only judged by what you know. So those who do not know of christ can not be judged. So what happens to them?

By rule I obviously meant something that you MUST do habitually.
You obviously don't know what a rule is.

You are truly an idiot. I was hoping that some glimmer of intelligent thought would appear within you, but you remain an idiot.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The issue is not what you do. By the Law, you would have to NEVER sin in your life in order to go to Heaven. That's impossible. With Christ, you are simply filled with the Spirit of God and all your sins from past, present and future are instantly forgiven, because it is not you that live anymore but Christ that lives in you. He did the work for us.

Please make this statement more clear. I do not understand it. Use my example of Joe and Andy if it helps to explain. What you have written there is somewhat sketchy and I think you could do a better job on getting your point across.

I apologize in advance if you have already explained this, but please repeat it anyway.

ZERO MASS

Persol,

So, everyone sins. Everyone's sins are forgiven if they believe in christ. Yet you are only judged by what you know. So those who do not know of christ can not be judged. So what happens to them?

2 Peter 3:9
"9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. "

He will give everyone an opportunity to hear the good news. You are already listening it.

You obviously don't know what a rule is.
A rule is obviously something that you do more then once. Accept Jesus in your heart you do only once. A rule, you have to keep doing it. Accepting Him in your heart is just an action.

You are truly an idiot. I was hoping that some glimmer of intelligent thought would appear within you, but you remain an idiot.

1 Peter 3:8-9
"8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit;
9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. "

Bless ya :p

Zero Mass,

Please make this statement more clear. I do not understand it. Use my example of Joe and Andy if it helps to explain. What you have written there is somewhat sketchy and I think you could do a better job on getting your point across.
Ok... although Andy was usually good, there was at least one thing that he did that wasn't very nice. Because of that one thing, he was influenced by it and he became not so nice.

Joe, although he killed someone, he was later filled with God's Spirit. whcih washed away what he has done.

It's easier to see if you compare it with taking a shower. Joe was pretty dirty because he sinned. When he accepted Christ, God started living in Him, so he was washed by His Spirit and became clean.

Andy, although he was usually clean, got a little dirty, so he wasn't really "clean".

Another example is comparing sins with cancer.
Joe sinned. He got lots of cancerous cells. When He accepted God into himself the cancer was totally cleared, not even one cancerous cell stood.

Andy, although he had no cancer, one day got a little cancerous cell. In result, this cancerous cell made him... let's say "dangerous".

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Ok... although Andy was usually good, there was at least one thing that he did that wasn't very nice. Because of that one thing, he was influenced by it and he became not so nice.

What was that one thing? Not believing in god! And for that he is dirty and must spend eternity in hell even though he led a better life than Joe did? Holy Crap, you wrote more stuff, hold on...

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Joe, although he killed someone, he was later filled with God's Spirit. whcih washed away what he has done.

Ok, so religion is the soap we use to wash away our sins. SO, Joe can do anything in this mortal realm as long as sometime before he dies he finds god and scrubs up for his appearance before saint peter?
So Joe (that bad, bad boy) can rape, kill, steal, destroy, and denounce god for the sham that he is for like forty years, then spend some time repenting and god will forgive him and reward him with eternity in "paradise"???
I thought religion was supposed to be like a moral code for a people to live by to help keep order in the world. You make it out that it allows anything as long as you repent for it. What’s this? You wrote more...


Originally posted by TruthSeeker
It's easier to see if you compare it with taking a shower. Joe was pretty dirty because he sinned. When he accepted Christ, God started living in Him, so he was washed by His Spirit and became clean.

Andy, although he was usually clean, got a little dirty, so he wasn't really "clean".

Dumbfounded...I guess this is the crap that you people like to preach though. In my world, KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG, it’s THE worst thing you can ever do. Please tell me where you live, so I can stay far, far away in peace where people don't think that it's cool that they kill one another.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Another example is comparing sins with cancer.
Joe sinned. He got lots of cancerous cells. When He accepted God into himself the cancer was totally cleared, not even one cancerous cell stood.

Cancer, right. Well TruthSeeker, I'm glad you at least didn't use the AIDS as your example. Btw, what does Christianity say about homosexuals gaining admittance into heaven? Just curious.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Andy, although he had no cancer, one day got a little cancerous cell.

Ok, so he didn't have cancer, but he did have cancer. Right, I got it, continue... (totally mocking you there, holy crap I rule)

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
In result, this cancerous cell made him... let's say "dangerous".

How is this not the same as your previous example? And what exactly do you mean by "dangerous"?
b/c Andy helped people out in life and never hurt anybody? Yeah, that’s what I call dangerous. Especially when there are people like Joe (*see above) to compare Andy to in society.
Whom do you fear more?
A Killer or an Atheist?

ZERO MASS

Andy the Atheist spends his life caring for the weak and the sick, and he goes to hell? b/c he doesn't subscribe to a religion? Who did Andy kill?

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;


Andy will be jugded according to his good works..........sure

God is fair and mercifull, and the bible has the answers.

Andy will be raised up someday and jugded according to his works, and given the chance to recieve christ in the milineum, when the bride sits with christ in that city as the Son of David, (The son of david was the wisest man that ever lived, Solomon)
The nations of the earth will be allowed to enter at the gates of the city and enquire of God's wisdom from His bride.
These words are as the fruits of the tree of life...Solomon said so.

We will be kings and priest...Don't you know the saint's shall judge the angels.,

Yes Andy will get his chance to hear of god, AS LONG AS HE HAS NOT RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST FOR REJECTING THE TRUTH IN THIS LIFE.

Hebrews chapter 6

bah, thats true, i dont believe in god, but i try to lead a good life, be nice to people, be a decent person etc. If not believing in god lands me in hell thats ...well, ridiculous. Remember that more than half of the 6 billion people on earth DONT believe in god.

Originally posted by Carnuth
If not believing in god lands me in hell thats ...well, ridiculous.

Religion is ridiculous, what do you expect? Logic, Reason, Compassion? No, these appear to be out of the scope of god (or at least Christianity). p.s. Carnuth, you rock- ZERO MASS

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Andy will be raised up someday and jugded according to his works, and given the chance to recieve christ in the milineum, when the bride sits with christ in that city as the Son of David, (The son of david was the wisest man that ever lived, Solomon)
The nations of the earth will be allowed to enter at the gates of the city and enquire of God's wisdom from His bride.
These words are as the fruits of the tree of life...Solomon said so.

We will be kings and priest...Don't you know the saint's shall judge the angels.,

Just a reminder, Andy is a fictional character, don't get too carried away. And this whole part here was a bit much to swallow, I mean, holy crap man.

Originally posted by TheVisitor
Yes Andy will get his chance to hear of god, AS LONG AS HE HAS NOT RECEIVED THE MARK OF THE BEAST FOR REJECTING THE TRUTH IN THIS LIFE.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and assume (make an ass out of U and ME, but U more than ME) that "rejecting the truth in his life" means not believing in Christ.
Holy Crap, he doesn't believe in god, he doesn't want to hear what crap comes out of his mouth. I think you are missing the point here a little.
And what about Joe, the killer guy (who is also fictional, btw. I mean there could be a killer named Joe out there but I have no knowledge of him at this time) Does he get "to hear of god"? whatever that means.
Lets go back to Andy there, um, He doesn't believe in heaven or hell, or god for that matter. Is he still a fool in your eyes even though he lives a life of service and not evil?

ZERO MASS

Religion is ridiculous, what do you expect? Logic, Reason, Compassion? No, these appear to be out of the scope of god (or at least Christianity). p.s. Carnuth, you rock- ZERO MASS

hey hey, you guys are generalizing! Christianity, Islam, and Judaism arent the only religions! No Logic, Reason, or Compassion?! You cant just say ALL religion is ridiculous. There IS such a thing as a good christian, a good muslim, a good jew, etc. Dont believe in something so blindly that you count out all possbilities.

Zero Mass,

What was that one thing? Not believing in god! And for that he is dirty and must spend eternity in hell even though he led a better life than Joe did? Holy Crap, you wrote more stuff, hold on...
No, it wasn't just not believing in God. He simply did something wrong.

Ok, so religion is the soap we use to wash away our sins. SO, Joe can do anything in this mortal realm as long as sometime before he dies he finds god and scrubs up for his appearance before saint peter?
So Joe (that bad, bad boy) can rape, kill, steal, destroy, and denounce god for the sham that he is for like forty years, then spend some time repenting and god will forgive him and reward him with eternity in "paradise"???
I thought religion was supposed to be like a moral code for a people to live by to help keep order in the world. You make it out that it allows anything as long as you repent for it. What’s this? You wrote more...
If Joe is filled with God, how can he do all those things that you said he can? Besides, read Romans 6 again... How many times do I have to post the same verses until you get it?

Dumbfounded...I guess this is the crap that you people like to preach though. In my world, KILLING PEOPLE IS WRONG, it? THE worst thing you can ever do. Please tell me where you live, so I can stay far, far away in peace where people don't think that it's cool that they kill one another.
Who said killing is "cool"!?!?!? You are twisting it again! That's ridiculous and immature!

Cancer, right. Well TruthSeeker, I'm glad you at least didn't use the AIDS as your example. Btw, what does Christianity say about homosexuals gaining admittance into heaven? Just curious.
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.:bugeye:

Ok, so he didn't have cancer, but he did have cancer. Right, I got it, continue... (totally mocking you there, holy crap I rule)
Oh my God... You are being immature again...:rolleyes:
He didn't have, but then he got it. What? Everyone that has cancer has had cancer since they were little babies?:bugeye:

How is this not the same as your previous example? And what exactly do you mean by "dangerous"?
b/c Andy helped people out in life and never hurt anybody? Yeah, that’s what I call dangerous. Especially when there are people like Joe (*see above) to compare Andy to in society.
Whom do you fear more?
A Killer or an Atheist?

An atheist of course. Read what you wrote. You are way too immature...

QUOTE]Originally posted by TruthSeeker
No, it wasn't just not believing in God. He simply did something wrong.[/QUOTE]

What did he do that was wrong other than not believing in the myth that you believe in?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
If Joe is filled with God, how can he do all those things that you said he can? Besides, read Romans 6 again... How many times do I have to post the same verses until you get it?

Can't he kill a lot of people then find god? Then he would be accepted into heaven, correct? That is what I was trying to point out, that god forgives sins no matter what the person did on earth.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Who said killing is "cool"!?!?!? You are twisting it again! That's ridiculous and immature!

I think you said god said it was cool, as long as you repent and accept Christ into your heart after the act. You can be forgiven when you repent, then you are accepted into gods kingdom and spend all eternity in heaven with him. Isn't that what the latter part of Romans 6 says?
I totally agree, that is ridiculous and immature...and crap.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.:bugeye:

So you think homosexuality is a sin that must be repented before one gains acceptance into heaven? Can I ask you why you believe homosexuality to be a sin?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
Oh my God... You are being immature again...
He didn't have, but then he got it. What? Everyone that has cancer has had cancer since they were little babies?

I am being immature there; I thought it was pretty funny.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
An atheist of course. Read what you wrote. You are way too immature...

Who would you rather invite into your home? A killer or an Atheist? Let’s use the example, Andy or Joe?

And answer this, how is Andy the Atheist more "dangerous" than Joe the KILLER (that means he kills people)?

In response to your repeated accusation that I am immature, well, I am, but its b/c you're talking about fairy tales and using childish reason in place of logic that my maturity level has decreased, crapface.

ZERO MASS

Zero Mass,

What did he do that was wrong other than not believing in the myth that you believe in?
I don't know. What I do know is that it is impossible to live a perfect life...:eek:

Can't he kill a lot of people then find god? Then he would be accepted into heaven, correct? That is what I was trying to point out, that god forgives sins no matter what the person did on earth.
Yes.

I think you said god said it was cool, as long as you repent and accept Christ into your heart after the act. You can be forgiven when you repent, then you are accepted into gods kingdom and spend all eternity in heaven with him. Isn't that what the latter part of Romans 6 says?
It is not "cool". It is ok to be forgiven after repenting.
Romans 6 basically say that we are forgiven, and also advises us not to sin anymore because we are free from sin. If you understand this concept (free from sin) then you are able to understand God's forgiveness.

I totally agree, that is ridiculous and immature...and crap.
You know I'm talking about what you are saying.

So you think homosexuality is a sin that must be repented before one gains acceptance into heaven? Can I ask you why you believe homosexuality to be a sin?
Not healthy, not natural,....

Who would you rather invite into your home? A killer or an Atheist? Let’s use the example, Andy or Joe?
If Joe is seeking God and is repented, certainly Joe.

And answer this, how is Andy the Atheist more "dangerous" than Joe the KILLER (that means he kills people)?
If he is an atheist in the sense that wants anyone to believe in God, then he doesn't kill bodies, but worse, he kills souls.

In response to your repeated accusation that I am immature, well, I am, but its b/c you're talking about fairy tales and using childish reason in place of logic that my maturity level has decreased, crapface.
A mature person is never immature, not even in this kind of situation.

TruthSeeker,

Your morals and ideas are good on paper, but are very unrealistic in real life. Its just nonsensical if you re-read what you just wrote, particularly:

1) An aethist is more dangerous than a murderer

2) Homosexuality being unnatural , its genetic! i dont see anything more natural than genetics, and according to the bible, god created people which includes our DNA which in itself contains the potential for people being homosexual

3) And you would trust a murderer in your home more than someone who doesnt want to accept what people tell him, and think for himself about his own creation? Thats a bit naive, you cant trust someone to be truly reformed, at least not in this age sadly.

Thanks Carnuth,
I knew that I couldn't be the only person who thought that TruthSeeker was a little off...
You would rather have a killer in your home than an atheist?
With that kind of intelligence, how have you not died yet?

ZERO MASS

Because he also believes that God will protect him from anything from nuclear weapons to murderers. If he is killed it is because God needs him in the afterlife.

Now my idea of God... He'd let him be killed as punishment for stupidity.

As you can see from the number of posts I have here I'm brand new so if I make an ass out of myself I hope you all can understand.

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
What about it? They repent, accept Christ in their hearts, stop sinning, then go to Heaven. That's it.

Actually in Leviticus 20.13 it says..

If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death.

I'm not sure is this what you mean by repenting TruthSeeker? How many homosexuals have you killed? Isn't it a sin to kill another man? Of course this is all old testament stuff so I could be talking out of my ass here.

One final thing I personally don't believe in Hell so in your examples given before I believe both Andy and Joe will go to heaven. Can anyone accept the possibility that all people go to heaven when they die? Certainly an all loving god could not be so harsh as to make his children rot forever in a place like hell?

Just a thought anyways..

Horseman42

Inviting an atheist into your home is more dangerous than inviting a murderer? Come on now.

If your faith and religion was really solid, surely it should easily stand up to any challenge put by an atheist?

Originally posted by TruthSeeker
The rules:
None. Yes, there is absolutly no rules. God does advise us to Love one another but if you screw up He doesn't condemn you at all.That's not what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17 - 19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Luke 16:16 - 18
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.

Nor is it what Paul said:

Romans 2:12-16
For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.See above.

~Raithere

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

Well like i said is the old testament talking about a different god? Is it just fake writing or what?

Let’s continue the discussion of Andy & Joe, and hopefully into a perspective which can be easily understood. Let’s make them brothers & their father is the richest man in town.

Andy does all the good deeds, helps people, & is considered a good man. But Andy does not want to know his father & has not spoken to him since leaving home. Andy hates his father, wants no reconciliation, and wants nothing to do with him.

Joe murdered someone & is serving the time for the crime. Joe repented, & has asked his father’s forgiveness. Joe loves his father & is ashamed of what he did.

What should the father do about his sons?

Carnuth,

1) An aethist is more dangerous than a murderer
If he kills souls it is true.

2) Homosexuality being unnatural , its genetic! i dont see anything more natural than genetics, and according to the bible, god created people which includes our DNA which in itself contains the potential for people being homosexual
SIn also become genetic through Adam.

3) And you would trust a murderer in your home more than someone who doesnt want to accept what people tell him, and think for himself about his own creation? Thats a bit naive, you cant trust someone to be truly reformed, at least not in this age sadly.
No weapon shall prosper against me. Yes, sadly it seems hard for someone to be reformed in this age... but people can really repent, you know?

Zero Mass,

With that kind of intelligence, how have you not died yet?
"No weapon shall prosper aginst you."

Persol,

Because he also believes that God will protect him from anything from nuclear weapons to murderers. If he is killed it is because God needs him in the afterlife.
Why would God need me?

Now my idea of God... He'd let him be killed as punishment for stupidity.
You still don't know the "punishment" for stupidity...:bugeye:

Horseman42,

Welcome :)
Actually in Leviticus 20.13 it says..
Old Testament.
Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.
And the real tranlation for that would be:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall die [or "shall be dead]."
Because "the wages of sin is death". It is something that occurs naturally. The Law of God was desgined tpo mantain people alive. That's why it is written so many times "shal die" or "shalle be put to death", or whatever. The point is that death is a natural result of sin, not something that should be actually done.

I'm not sure is this what you mean by repenting TruthSeeker? How many homosexuals have you killed? Isn't it a sin to kill another man? Of course this is all old testament stuff so I could be talking out of my ass here.
It is a sin to kill. But read above for an explanation about the Law.

One final thing I personally don't believe in Hell so in your examples given before I believe both Andy and Joe will go to heaven. Can anyone accept the possibility that all people go to heaven when they die? Certainly an all loving god could not be so harsh as to make his children rot forever in a place like hell?
Depends what hell is and who make the choice...

James R,

If your faith and religion was really solid, surely it should easily stand up to any challenge put by an atheist?
You are right. I'm not there yet. I'm still working on my faith and I'm still learning lots about the Word of God. But someday, if I can stand being in this situation, I will get there...

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

For the third ignored time now..... I fail to see how something written by YOUR God has nothing to do with you.

I also wonder why you would consider an athiest as 'worse than a murderer'. You stated: If he kills souls........ Who's souls are you referring to? You know the real undeniable truth so why would you be scared souls would be killed. He therefore wouldn't be killing the souls of religious folk who know the truth- he would only be killing the souls of other athiests who are blind to the truth and do exactly the same as he does. So.... how can an athiest be 'worse than a murderer'? It is becoming all the more apparent you are 'confused'. You think you can answer your confusion by putting everything you have into one singular belief. The problems arise when you can't answer questions relating to that. I can sense that deep inside the subconcious is aware that you don't really believe that which your concious mind is hanging onto for dear life. It is that inner thought/outer thought conflict that is causing your confusions in life. Think i'm wrong? Prove it.

SIn also become genetic through Adam.

ummm... how did u come to that conclusion?

Raithere,

Matthew 5:17-19
"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. "
He fulfilled the Law in the cross. The Law said that we were sinenrs and that He would come to pay for our sins. He already did it. The Law is fulfilled. That's the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament. In the four gospels, it is still Old Testament since He wasn't dead yet. The New Testament begins just after His ressurection.

"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "
Yes, because the Law never fails.

"Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
The difference between the "old" commandment and the "new commandment is that we do the "new" because we Love Him, while with the "old" it was an obligation.

Making it easier for you to understand... there is only one commandment: "Love one another". In the Old Testament, you HAD to do it in order to go to Heaven, because you were under the Law. So in the Old Testament, it was really a commandment. In the New Testament, you don't HAVE to do in order to go to Heaven. HOWEVER, you do it anyways just because it pleases you to do so, and it is also easier since you are not under the Law anymore and you have no pressure anymore. So now it is not really a "commandment" anymore, nto something you HAVE to do, so it is not really a rule anymore. But if you want to have a nice life, better follow this commandment.

Luke 16:16 - 18
"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
He is talking about the Old Testament and the New one. When He said that "the Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. When John was born, He bring the baptism of water, which is the baptism where you accept the plans God has for you in your life. And the plans God has for all of us is for us to be saved. The rest is just details, since our livers is like a blink of an eye compared to an eternity.

Then He continues "since that time, the golpel of the kingdom of God has been preached". So here, He is telling us what is going on NOW. He told that the Law was prached before, and now since the Law is fulfilled by Him in our behalf, we are free from the Law.

And then "and everyone is forcing his way into it." Certainly, because everyone wants salvation, so everyone seek to be saved and be a part of God's Kingdom.

"But it is easier tfor heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail."
Again, He affirms that the Law never fails and those that are under it will perish. But the Kingdom of God, which He preaches, free us from the Law of sin and death.

Romans 2:12-16
"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;"
Romans is already New Testament. This passage tells us that those who are under the Law and go against it will perish. Those who are "without" the Law are those who don't accept the Law, don't follow it. But all those who accepted the gift of God shall not perish, but have eternal life in Christ Jesus.

"for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified."
Those who hear the Law and don't follow it are not just before God, but those who hear it and act on it will be justified. All Christians are already justified by faith. It is also written:

Romans 5:1-2
"1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
2 through whom also we obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. "

To go deep in the meaning of the scriptures you need to read lots of it and know everything that is written.

"For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, "
Those are the Christians :)
It is also written:

Hebrews 8:10
"10 FOR THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR MINDS, AND I WILL WRITE THEM ON THEIR HEARTS. AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. "

That's what happens when you become a Christian. You follow the Law naturally, because He write the Law in your heart; so that you are not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Chrit Jesus, the hope of righteousness. :)

SnakeLord,

Well like i said is the old testament talking about a different god? Is it just fake writing or what?
The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

SVRP,

What should the father do about his sons?
Are you a Christian...?:)

This is not exactly the situation you described, but it talks about the importance of repenting... you made me remember this...:

Luke 15:11-32
"11 And He said, "A man had two sons.
12 "The younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of the estate that falls to me.' So he divided his wealth between them.
13 "And not many days later, the younger son gathered everything together and went on a journey into a distant country, and there he squandered his estate with loose living.
14 "Now when he had spent everything, a severe famine occurred in that country, and he began to be impoverished.
15 "So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16 "And he would have gladly filled his stomach with the pods that the swine were eating, and no one was giving anything to him.
17 "But when he came to his senses, he said, 'How many of my father's hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger!
18 'I will get up and go to my father, and will say to him, "Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in your sight;
19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me as one of your hired men."'
20 "So he got up and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion for him, and ran and embraced him and kissed him.
21 "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight; I am no longer worthy to be called your son.'
22 "But the father said to his slaves, 'Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet;
23 and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate;
24 for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.' And they began to celebrate.
25 "Now his older son was in the field, and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing.
26 "And he summoned one of the servants and began inquiring what these things could be.
27 "And he said to him, 'Your brother has come, and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has received him back safe and sound.'
28 "But he became angry and was not willing to go in; and his father came out and began pleading with him.
29 "But he answered and said to his father, 'Look! For so many years I have been serving you and I have never neglected a command of yours; and yet you have never given me a young goat, so that I might celebrate with my friends;
30 but when this son of yours came, who has devoured your wealth with prostitutes, you killed the fattened calf for him.'
31 "And he said to him, 'Son, you have always been with me, and all that is mine is yours.
32 'But we had to celebrate and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost and has been found.'"

Also in the same chapter:
Luke 15:4-7
"4 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture and go after the one which is lost until he finds it?
5 "When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!'
7 "I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance. "

SnakeLord,

For the third ignored time now..... I fail to see how something written by YOUR God has nothing to do with you.
Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers.


I also wonder why you would consider an athiest as 'worse than a murderer'. You stated: If he kills souls........ Who's souls are you referring to? You know the real undeniable truth so why would you be scared souls would be killed. He therefore wouldn't be killing the souls of religious folk who know the truth- he would only be killing the souls of other athiests who are blind to the truth and do exactly the same as he does.
Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".

So.... how can an athiest be 'worse than a murderer'? It is becoming all the more apparent you are 'confused'.
I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist?

You think you can answer your confusion by putting everything you have into one singular belief. The problems arise when you can't answer questions relating to that. I can sense that deep inside the subconcious is aware that you don't really believe that which your concious mind is hanging onto for dear life. It is that inner thought/outer thought conflict that is causing your confusions in life. Think i'm wrong? Prove it.
I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

TruthSeeker

And the real tranlation for that would be:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall die [or "shall be dead]."
Because "the wages of sin is death". It is something that occurs naturally. The Law of God was desgined tpo mantain people alive. That's why it is written so many times "shal die" or "shalle be put to death", or whatever. The point is that death is a natural result of sin, not something that should be actually done.


Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.

Christianism is about New Testament and NOT Old Testament:
So what is written in the Old Testament has nothing to do with us.

So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.

Depends what hell is and who make the choice...

Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.

Horseman42

The Old Testament is just a preparation for the New. It was somthing that God created until the days that would come when He would live in His people again.

Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"

If you can hold the word of God to be true and of such importance how can any word of god be less than any other?

Then you go on to say:

Just because He is my God, that doesn't mean He will write things just for me... He wrote that for the Jews, and for you and other unbelievers

So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?

It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?

By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.

Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.

You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.

I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.

I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."

What else...

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."

Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.

Exactly. He kills the souls of other atheist, and ignorant people, people that don't know the Word of God. If someone come and tell someone else that you are a bad person and a liar, wouldn't that person, when talking to you, have already a mind set to believe that you were lying? In the same way, atheists can do that with others. That's how atheists can "kill souls".

How does anyones soul get killed? People have free will and can do as they please. Unlike certain religions non believers do not brainwash people. Unlike all religions non believers do not target people when they're at their most emotionally fragile. Athiests dont kill anything. We question, we debate, and we seek knowledge. You just sit there and condemn us- but that's ok cause jesus will forgive you right? You don't even realise the inherent evil that comes with religious attitude. Self righteousness, ill-mannered neglecting of anyone who doesn't believe exactly as you do. Hell i've even seen all the eternal bickering you lot get upto. There's another thread where some religious christian says most are false christians but he's a 'real' christian etc. What a lot of old nonsense. You cause more bad feeling and generate more hatred than anyone else- then condemn others for that.

You go so far as to claim a murderer is better than an athiest. It is that very attitude that devalues the human existence and shows how shallow a life you must lead. I feel sorry for you.

I'm not confused. What is worse, for someone to kill a Christian and send him to Heaven, or for someone to convince someone that God is not true and send that person to live for the rest of eternity in hell? Who really murdered: the murdere or the atheist

Here i prove what i said above... What is worse? You make it sound like human life has no value! What a fucking rip off. This is what i mean by devaluing human existence. What about the victims mother/children? Tell ya what... By your own rationing i might aswell go kill all christians now- doesn't sound like its too bad a thing to do in your eyes. Of course that's harmless. I kill a million christians and it's all fine- i turn athiest and im evil. Boy, you really need to wake up.

I don't think you are wrong... until some point. Subconsciously I still don't believe. It is only my conscious that do believe. If I were also believing subconsciously I would just go to Africa and feed all people there. But my faith didn't get to the point where my subconscious is also affected by it.

Give that subconcious a chance to be heard instead of locking it away because you're scared to think otherwise. I'm sure even God with all his acts of evil can forgive you for searching that which is hidden within yourself.

The argument of religion is age old. Plain and simple: no one is right, and no one is wrong. Especially Christianity. You can't prove that God really exists, and you can't disprove His existence. I'm really tired of people trying to prove other people wrong. EVERYONE IS RIGHT IN THEIR OWN SENSE! There is absolutley no reason to for one Christian to claim other non-Christians wrong. S/he should keep his religion to himself, or express it among other Christians so as not to upset anyone. There cannont be a resolution to this argument, so there should be no reason for this argument to continue. Man created religion, and Man's creation is destroying him. So please, PLEASE discontinue the argument. If you have any insight/criticism, please share. I look forward to whatever anybody has to say.

Willson: Ever wondered whether a forum allowing people to debate religion is the place for you to be then?

Perhaps you should stick to gaming forums/mp3 forums or whatever.

The purpose of this forum is not to be right it's to debate issues, To gain knowledge. I've learnt some things here, as im sure others have so why would you consider it pointless?

Before asking others to discontinue debate because you can't cope with it- consider the alternative of your departure from this forum. Problem solved.

I DON'T consider it pointless. I realize that people are opinionated, as am I. I'm not bieng critical, because I strongly disagree in trying to disprove or approve God, or any other thing like that. You imply that I'm anti-debating, which I'm not. If you would like my opinion, here it is: I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

Willson13,

I think God exists. And I don't hate people who don't believe in Him. I don't think they'll go to Hell, mostly because they don't beleive in a Hell to go to. I'm very interested in learning about what the "other side" has to say, in terms of why they believe there is no God.

I'm with you man. I believe the same as well! However I know I don't have all the answers, and I'm here to learn whatever I can. You really have to consider if this is the right forum for you. People like Snakelord and Truthseeker make this forum a very active forum for debate, and I gladly welcome reading their replies.


Horseman42

Horseman42,

Acctually my Bible, the one I've studied (the King James) states exactly "shall be put to death". Many people are homosexuals and not dying, and others are commiting even "worse acts" like rape, murdering, and even genocide and they are still alive. Unless perhaps your talking about the fact we may all die one day your example is invalid.
We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.

So just what sections of the Bible are ok? Are the 10 commandments ok? Sometimes I don't understand why Christians can selectively only extract what they want from the Bible and ignore the rest.
It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.

Again I have to state I do not believe in HELL. That is a hell with little devils running around, with fire and shit everywhere. A place where the soul goes for being bad in life or for whatever reason, where it spends the rest of eternity in pain and suffering. An all-good, all-knowing, all-powerful being such as God wouldn't set things up like this as it entirely makes no sense. In your examples BOTH Andy and Joe would go to heaven as there's no where else for them to go.
Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind...:bugeye: ).

Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?

(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)

SnakeLord,

Any chance of getting a response to my post Truthseeker?
I don't waste my whole day in front of the computer...:bugeye:
Me wonders if you do...:p

(Unfortunately you seem to be the only religious type readily attempting to answer questions and offer knowledge. I don't know what happened to your brethren like Visitor, Jenyar and so on but they seem to have left you all alone to cope by yourself. As such i apologise if i seem to have put everything upon your shoulders- it is not my intention but the vansihing act of your counterparts leaves no choice.)
I understand that...
You are forgiven :p

SnakeLord,

Well that's what you said first off... And to me that would signify utmost importance. Preparation is just as important as anything that follows but you seem to think otherwise: "It's nothing to do with us!"
It is just that its importance is diminished. The Law still have Its use. However, most people (like Catholics) use It to condemn others. Well... we are not under the Law anymore, so I stress that it is diminished. Here is the comparison between the Old and New:

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

This one also talks about that, and more clearly:

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

So i see... Those particular words of God are irrelevant 'cause they were just for the dumbass jews and dumbass non believers?
It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.

It has been accurately shown that most of that material is translation upon translation stemming from Sumerian texts. If you say it was written by God you are aware you're talking about some other God? In fact- Gods? As such the 'preparation' for your faith was given by a bunch of people that didn't even believe anything you do. Can we honestly be so self righteous and ignorant to just say: "They're wrong, i'm right"?
Many Jews didn't accept the revelation of Christ. However, there are many cases of Jews that realized the importance and truth of the New covenant. Take for example Paul. He used to kill Christians. Then, one day as he was going to Damascus, he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ. Paul though that He wasn't, he was just trying to work for God. By ignorance, he worked against God. After the revelation, he became an apostle and without him the New Testament would have many less books...:bugeye:

By the same token can you just deny anyone? The Jews, the non-believers, etc? Of course you can't.
Deny? In which sense?

Us 'Non-believers' are a loving and kind group of people. We ask questions- we seek truth. We are well aware of what love, compassion and all the other worldy virtues are.
It usually doesn't seem so...

You on the other hand dismiss everyone else as wrong- claim nobody but you has love, knows what love - are forgiven above us etc etc etc. It is that very self righteous, highly naive and ignorant attitude which annoys people. You happily devalue the human ability, the human 'being' above that which a book states as real. You pick and choose whatever you like in order to attempt meager satisfaction of your beliefs and ignore or deny anyone with a serious question. If you do reply to any question you don't explain anything in a manner anyone would appreciate. You should realise us pathetic non believers do not have the capacity to understand the bible so why continually quote it and avoid answering a question in 'normal' manner? To us, your little quotes answer nothing.
I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.

I've read the bible many times and can say i see it in a opposite light to you. The overwhelming majority of it is so contradictory to deny any credibility it might otherwise have had. The rest of it is pure violence, hatred, belittling on the side of your God. He has happily created chaos, anarchy, destruction, despair all of which you cannot answer.
I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...:eek:

I left this on another post but it was ignored completely. I wonder why that is.....
Which one? I don't spend the whole day in the internet...

Exodus 20:5 "For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God..."
Have you ever read it in Hebrew? Well... I honestly think the Bible needs a good revision. Just because God wishes us to worship Him, that doesn't mean He is jealous. The people translating it might have assumed that He was jealous by that very reason. So you need to go back to the Hebrew and see that. Also, and interlinear Bible might do the job.

"Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children..... Defile the temple and fill the courts with slain. Go!...."
Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.

God told Adam and Eve not to eat from the apple or they would instantly die. The serpent said they wouldn't.... The serpent was right. God was a liar.
Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.

"The Lord was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain..." (God has a heart? Doesn't that possibly suggest mortality?) "...I will wipe makind, whom i have created, from the face of the earth.."
The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being. What suggest mortality is a body and a dead spirit. A spirit is dead because of sin. For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner. That's what makes you a mortal. My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).

"Then the Lord rained down burning sulphur on Sodom and Gomorrah.... but Lots wife looked back and she became a pillar of salt"
Quote...

The ten plagues.... (you know what he did there)
What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?

Feast of Tabernacles .... (why does god need cows, sheep and virgin women as offerings?)
Virgin women? Quote it...

"The Lord will also bring on you every kind of sickness and disaster not recorded in the book of the Law until you are destroyed... Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you.."
Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...

"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."
Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.

Does this not show true evil? Where's this 'love', 'compassion' etc that you state? Of course you, the church, the religious folk tend to ignore stuff like this. He even went so far as to say it 'pleases' him to ruin and destroy. It also pleases me to kill people- does that make me bad? After all i am made in the image of god- i only have fun doing what he has fun doing.
When Adam sinned, His image was not expressed in us anymore. We were made in His image, but transformed in the image of the one we worship then- Satan. When we sinned in the garden, we became slaves of sin. When Jesus died for us, we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

I continue later... I don't have time now...

Luke 5:36-39
"36 And He was also telling them a parable: "No one tears a piece of cloth from a new garment and puts it on an old garment; otherwise he will both tear the new, and the piece from the new will not match the old.
37 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the new wine will burst the skins and it will be spilled out, and the skins will be ruined.
38 "But new wine must be put into fresh wineskins.
39 "And no one, after drinking old wine wishes for new; for he says, 'The old is good enough.'"

Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.

It has some importance, but nopt as much as people seem to think. The Law is already written upon our hearts, and we don't NEED to follow it in order to go to Heaven (we follow it naturally anyways...). So His Words aren't irrelevant, they are just being specially adressed to Jews and non-believers.


The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.

he saw a light from Heaven that blinded him, and then Jesus spoke with him and revealed that He IS Christ.

He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.

Deny? In which sense?

Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.

It usually doesn't seem so...

Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.

I usually quote and explain a lot. Wheter you have the capacity to understand it or not, I guess that's your own personal problem, and I can't do much about it.

No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.

I guess you have read a different Bible than I did, then...

Or you just haven't read it at all.

Again, need to check on Hebrew. Also make an extense look into the scirptures. There were some scriptures like that that I totally couldn't understand. After reading further and going deeper and keeping it in my mind I could figure out what they meant. Oh... and please tell me where it's written.

Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly.


Where God said that they would "instantly" die? God said that they would die because to eat from that tree was a sin. The wages of sin is death. That's why they would die. The serpent said they wouldn't. The serpent was a liar. The serpent lied to them saying that they would become like God. Did they become like God? I don't think so. God said the Truth. They died.

I'll accept that as an answer. See.... i'm a nice guy like that- i wont sit here and say you're just reading mistranslated Hebrew.

The "heart" or "soul" is a part of every living being.

So the heart and the soul are the same thing?

For example, your spirit is dead, since you are a sinner.

If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.

My spirit is alive, and that makes me immortal, not in body, but in spirit.

Lol...... you have such a high ego.

And again, quote it from the Bible so taht I can read the whole passage. If I can't read the whole passage, I can't really give an answer (unless I, myself, know where it is).

I'll bear that in mind next time i quote.

What are you talking about exactly? When Moses bring the Jews out of Egipt?

Have you even read the bible??

Virgin women? Quote it...

To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.

Is that Deuteronomy 28? The word "bring" there is, in Hebrew, "allow". It is a result of the Law. If you brake the Law, those things happen to you. You reap what you sow...

Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The Lord will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn agains that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the Lord will blot out his name from under heaven. The Lord will single him out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster..."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Again... if you are under the Law, you have to keep it.

That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.

we became slaves of righteousness (all Chistians, of course).

Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.

To be a christian is to say

- Lord Jesus Christ in every other sentance...
- To hate your own family and blood because they chose to stay catholic and to hang around complete strangers who attend your church and treat them like family.
- To love your pastor more than you have ever loved or respected your dad.
- To always feel high and up in the sky on the social rush that you get from attending church.
- To feel like the pastor like you most of all, and that one day, you'll head the church and lead all those people.

TruthSeeker,

Thank you for your speed reply.

You said...

We all sin, therefore we all die. Death is the natural result of sin.

Here's another quote in the Bible from Leviticus 10.16

One who blasphemes the name of the LORD shall be put to death; the whole congregation shall stone the blasphemer.

That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.

It is ALL ok. However, what is really for Christians is simply the New Testament stuff. The 10 commandments is basically "Love one another". That's all. You don't really need to rely on 10 commandments when you only really need 1.

Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...

Andy can't go to Heaven. Andy said to God: God, I don't believe you exist. I don't want to be in your presence. It was Andy's choice. Besides, again, it depends what is hell. If it is eternal suffering in fire or just a place where God doesn't exist (like an atheist's mind... ).

God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!

It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.

Horseman42

SnakeLord,
Why didn't you feel the need to include the rest of this? Jesus is talking about fasting. They ask him why his people are not fasting like the rest of them and he goes into chat about bridegrooms, and garments.

It bears absolutely NO relevance to old vs new testament. You really believe you just have the right to pick and choose particular sentences to meet your needs in this circumstance? Shocking.
Oh my God... You have absolutly no idea what the verses are talking about...

Luke 5:30-35
"30 The Pharisees and their scribes began grumbling at His disciples, saying, "Why do you eat and drink with the tax collectors and sinners?"
31 And Jesus answered and said to them, "It is not those who are well who need a physician, but those who are sick.
32 "I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance."
33 And they said to Him, "The disciples of John often fast and offer prayers, the disciples of the Pharisees also do the same, but Yours eat and drink."
34 And Jesus said to them, "You cannot make the attendants of the bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you?
35 "But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days." "

This passage is talking about Christ's ressurection. The thesis is in the 31 verse, NOT on the 33 one. Verse 33 talks about the opinion of the Pahrisees, whcih are those that are against God. What you have done is to consider that the Pharisees were talking, while in truth, Jesus was talking. In verse 32 He expands the idea and say that the righteous ones don't need Him. In verse 34, He gives the answer to the Pharisees:

"You cannot make the attendants of t bridegroom fast while the bridegroom is with them, can you? But the days will come; and when the bridegroom is taken away from them, then they will fast in those days."

The "bridegroom" is Himself. He is using a metaphor. Then, when He is taken away, then there would be fasting. And then He goes on and explains why He has to be taken away and the consequences. which is verses 36 to 39.

This is talking about sacrificing goats and bulls and how it's a worthless thing to do. Again you just pick one sentence out of the bible and ignore the fact it does nothing to help your claims if anyone has taken the time to read the rest of it.
No it's not.

Hebrews 10:1
"1 For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near."

The verse is talking about the difference between the Old Testament and New Testament. In the Old, you had to be forgiven everytime. In the New, there is no such thing. The verse says that the Law was just a preparation, or in a better word, a blueprint, of the things to come, the New Testament.

The law is already written upon our hearts too. You think morals and good doing comes from a book? Comes from a voice in your head? We don't need to follow it either but anyone past the age of 2 will know the differences between right and wrong naturally. The Jews and non believers are no different. Don't be an ignoramus.
The mouth speaks which feels the heart. The tree is recognized by its fruits. No, you don't have the Law in your heart. The Law is just in you mind, that's all. But it is not really deep in you, it is just on the surface. And morals and good things did come from the Law of God. What is the oldest document that talks about morals and law? Moses came up with the very first document about our laws. Those laws were inspired by God. Then, the laws were changed and many more things were added, unfortunatly...

The Jews and the unbelievers need to follow those Laws in order to go to Heaven. All of them. Never brake not even one of them.

He saw a comet. How would you explain the sighting of a comet 2000 years ago? They didn't even know what a comet was a couple of hundred years ago let alone a couple of thousand. He runs off to his buddy and mentions his sighting whereby Jesus takes full advantage of his friends fragile state of mind, (just like christians have been doing ever since), and tells him he is god. What's to say Jesus wasn't just an accomplished con artist? I wouldn't have thought carpentry earned that much money. Maybe he even faked his own death- it has happened before.
The light blinded him. It couldn't be a comet. Besides, not only Paul, but two guys that were with him heard Jesus when He was speaking.

Do you think you can state the Jews are wrong, the non believers are wrong? The hindus, ancient greeks, the vikings.... Can you state they are all wrong? If you answer yes i'll be forced to call you a self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole. I know you'll forgive me though so it's not a hassle.
I'm not self right and all that just because I deny they are wrong. You, yourself say that I'm wrong and everybody elease is wrong and that you are right, don't you? So... can I call you self righteous, pompous, ignorant asshole? I guess so... if that's the case...:p

Well you see.... the love, compassion and goodwill of non believers is coded to the minds that don't have the capacity to understand. You must 'want' to find it, or you never will.
No. You have no love or compassion or anything like that. You are judges and self righteous people. You have nothing of godly in you.

No you quote tiny little segments of text and try to attribute it to something completely unrelated. You explain nothing but claim everything. As for my lack of understanding... Whatever you think.
I provided extensive explanations for every scripture I presented to you and to others. It is you atheists that get bits and pieces of scripture in order to find a "contradiction" in it. That's how you find a contradiction in the Bible, comparing to a common book:

You read one sentence saying:
"The house is yellow."

And in another part totalyl different you read:
"The house is blue."

Then you say that those two sentences contradict each other. However, you totally got it out of context. The possibilities could be basically:
- the sentences are talking about two different houses
- the sentences are talking about the same house in two different time frames

So, you totally twist the Word trying to get it out of context. I usually post huge chuncks of scripture in order to avoid you doing that, and I always ask for the verses you post for the same reason (many times you don't say where to find it in the Bible)...

Or you just haven't read it at all.
What? Now, you are saying that you know it better then I? That's kinda funky...:rolleyes:

Always the way.... Anything that you religious folk find distasteful becoms nothing more than bad translation. Anything you claim is the absolute 'word of god'- anything we claim is fucked up Hebrew/Greek etc. Someone like you has just left an identical reply on another thread. He claims it's mistranslated Greek, you claim it's mistranslated Hebrew....... You both seem able to pick and choose what god said and what was translated incorrectly
If you doubt, just go ans study Greek and Hebrew...
There are LOTS of space there for mistakes. A little list of possible mistakes:
- an adjective being mistaken by an adverb and vice-versa
- mistranslation caused by a single accent or lack of it in the word
- mistranslation caused by the interpretation of a case (like mistaking vocative for genitive)

So the heart and the soul are the same thing?
The heart is the deepest part of the soul.

If my spirit is dead, because im apparently a sinner, then so is my heart- as they are one and the same. I just had it checked by a doctor- it's still alive and beating. You are wrong.
No, your spirit is not one with your heart. They are two separate parts of you.

Lol...... you have such a high ego.
No. Just because I say the truth, that doesn't mean I have a high ego.

Have you even read the bible??
Not the WHOLE Bible. And I'm pretty sure you haven't read it all either.

To save boring everyone go read it. If you can't find it i'll paste it all later.
Paste it or give me the reference.

Once again it comes down to bad translation. While we're on the subject of bad translations you do realise Elohim is actually a plural word meaning 'Gods', not God as it was badly translated as meaning. Thus there's more than one god and you're wrong. Yes/no? If it's a simple as classing everything as a bad translation there's one more for you to consider.
"God" and "gods" depends on the verse. When it is written about "gods", it is talking about false gods. Like when Aaron made an idol and people bring sacrifices to it. That was a false gods. God said: Don't worship any other god then me. Because it is pretty stupid to worship an object that has no life in it.

That's all you could say? Still, i guess it's better than blaming it all on bad translations- however read it once more... I think your 'explanation' lacks any kind of justification.
It is also written that if you don't keep the Law you will get yourself accursed. Who curse who? It is you that curse yourwself by your own actions. Like if you go and sleep with your neightbour's wife and then he kills you. It was you that made him kill you. You bring destruction upon yourself.

Slaves of self righteousness. You're absolutely right.
Is it self righteousness to say that we are not rigtheous unless God is in us, that we depend on Him to be righteous? Or is it self rigtheousness to say that you don't need any God in order for you to be righteous and great?

Horseman42,

That sounds real natural to be put to death. I guess it must be alright if God commanded it though right? Don't forget he is the same God in the new testiment.
Yes, it is the same God in the New Testament. That's why it is written:

John 8:3-11
"3 The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman caught in adultery, and having set her in the center of the court,
4 they said to Him, "Teacher, this woman has been caught in adultery, in the very act.
5 "Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women; what then do You say?"
6 They were saying this, testing Him, so that they might have grounds for accusing Him. But Jesus stooped down and with His finger wrote on the ground.
7 But when they persisted in asking Him, He straightened up, and said to them, "He who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone at her."
8 Again He stooped down and wrote on the ground.
9 When they heard it, they began to go out one by one, beginning with the older ones, and He was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the center of the court.
10 Straightening up, Jesus said to her, "Woman, where are they? Did no one condemn you?"
11 She said, "No one, Lord." [And Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more."] "

Jesus also healed in the Sabath, which was not "lawful". The key here is: who are us to judge the sins of others? We are also sinful, so should we stone ourselves also? Jesus makes you think about those things. The Law was written for unrighteous people and can only be fulfilled through a righteous one. So you can only be stoned by a righteous person. Since everyone sins, who can stone you? Jesus? God? But they don't, because they have forgiven you.

Again your picking and choosing what you believe. If it's all OK then it must have been OK that blasphemers to be stoned to death. Wait there's more...
No I'm not. It is written:

Romans 13:8-9
"8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.
9 For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF." "

God is our father I'm sure you've heard him called this. Almost all fathers would never condemn their children to a hell. To deny Andy a place in heaven would be crazy. If god is everywhere (which is what I was taught to believe) then he would even exist in an atheist's mind, as well as inside Andy's soul. I can't fathom how God could say I don't want to be in Andy's presence because he would in effect be saying I don't wan't to be in my own presence. This means God would be crazy!
No, God is not everywhere in this sense. God cannot live inside you unless you accept so. Also, God doesn't live inside pigs either :bugeye:. In the same way the air is everywhere, God is everywhere. The air goes inside you if you allow so, and so does God.

It's also unfair to Andy. The decision to believe in God or not is a very difficult one. We would be here talking if it wasn't. Surely God would understand this fact.
If you are humble enough to recognize you are a particle of dust compared to the universe, you are perfectly capable to believe in God and, actually, als