Japan has been in the news a lot lately and not in a good way. They hunt whales.
If the humpback whale population is high enough to tolerate the loss of 50 whales (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/18/japan.whaling.ap/index.html?iref=werecommend), why is that wrong?

Hunting whales is wrong because people tend to seperate animals into okay to kill and not okay to kill categories. Different groups place different animals in the two groups.

The Japanese view whales and dolphins as food items so they have no compunctions about killing them. Most Westerners do not consider them suitable for the dinner table so we say they should not be hunted.

We feel the same about horses. Horses are considered rather large pets in most of the Western world but if you go to France you will find boucheries chevalines, butcher shops that specialize in horse meat.

If the Japanaese and the Norwegians want to hunt and eat whales and they are hunting non endangered species I see nothing wrong with it. After all, De gustibus non est disputandum

It don't really matter. Before it's all done, humans will have sucked the planet dry of every single thing that's of any value to them .....it's just a matter of time. If the whales aren't destroyed by hunting, we'll kill them all off with pollution.

Just enjoy your life, what little there is of it. I'm coming to realize that it really don't mean nothin' in the grand scheme of things. Few of us will ever actually make any significant contributions to anything, and the few of us who do, that accomplishment will be turned into something that can further kill or pollute something else.

Baron Max

I would think that if a country like Japan can buy other meats that are

similar in taste to whale then they should try and buy those types of

production meats instead of depleting the stocks of whales. I don't

understand why whale is so important to them because they now have been

buying beef for many years and importing it everywhere in Japan. They have

eaten whale for centuries and old habits die hard.

Like Till Eulenspiegel said it's because whales (all of them) have been placed in the not ok to kill category. Norway hunts whales responsibly, only the minke whale and only a small number. They are very conscientious about the whale populations health.

I would think that if a country like Japan can buy other meats that are

similar in taste to whale then they should try and buy those types of

production meats instead of depleting the stocks of whales. I don't

understand why whale is so important to them because they now have been

buying beef for many years and importing it everywhere in Japan. They have

eaten whale for centuries and old habits die hard.

Japan isn't exactly a great place to raise meat though is it.

Yeah, does Japan have a lot of space for cows?
I just think once the whale population has gone back up, hunt responsibly. And since they are only hunting 50, well, go for it.

Yeah, does Japan have a lot of space for cows?
I just think once the whale population has gone back up, hunt responsibly. And since they are only hunting 50, well, go for it.

They have enough money to import any beef they need or want. They can

buy beef from Korea a few hundred miles away or China also very near to

them. They already buy beef from America and other countries as well.

What do you mean they have enough money to import it?v Do you have any idea how expensive beef is in Japan?!

I would think that if a country like Japan can buy other meats that are similar in taste to whale then they should try and buy those types of production meats instead of depleting the stocks of whales. I don't understand why whale is so important to them because they now have been buying beef for many years and importing it everywhere in Japan. They have eaten whale for centuries and old habits die hard.

Actually, I'm not sure that they have been eating whale for centuries. I think whale-meat took off to some extent during WWII, due to food shortages.

As I understand it, though, it is mostly older Japanese people who want whale meat. Many younger Japanese people are against whaling, on the same grounds as most of the civilised world.

The pretense that whales are hunted for "scientific" purposes is laughable, considering that this year Japan plans to kill about 1000 whales (that they've told us about).

Yeah, does Japan have a lot of space for cows?
I just think once the whale population has gone back up, hunt responsibly. And since they are only hunting 50, well, go for it.

There is disagreement about whale populations. This year, Japan plans to start hunting humpback whales again for the first time. I think the general scientific consensus is that populations of humpbacks are still low enough to make the species endangered.

Japan doesn't have a lot of space for cows. It imports a lot of meat from Australia.

I'm against hunting, therefore I am against hunting whales. Japan should stop this mess.

And yet Kobe beef is really good.

Strange, that.

As to the whales, they're off the list of things to kill. It has to do with something I saw on PBS as a kid. Documentary footage of an old man playing violin to some whales. That qualifies. They have a legitimate claim to elevated and specific respect.

Japan has been in the news a lot lately and not in a good way. They hunt whales.
If the humpback whale population is high enough to tolerate the loss of 50 whales (http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/11/18/japan.whaling.ap/index.html?iref=werecommend), why is that wrong?

japanesse have eaten whale for a long time! so why should they change they're eating habits, ok dont kill all the whales, and let them populate, we have a problem with Cod in this country it has been eating so much that its difficult to get a fish shop to sell you one now

Actually, I'm not sure that they have been eating whale for centuries. I think whale-meat took off to some extent during WWII, due to food shortages.
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HISTORY OF THE TRADITIONAL DIET: JAPANESE AND THE WHALE
(from "Whale and Traditions of Diet", 1987)

According to a noted culinary researcher, the late Mr. Tetsunosuke Tada, Japanese probably started to eat whale during the Jomon period. This section will focus on the Japanese traditional diet with relation to the whale since that time.

1) The Jomon Period (7000/8000 to 3000 B.C.): whale as an essential food

There are a few facts that can be obtained as historical evidence which provide an explanation of the Japanese consumption of whale in this period. The first facts can be found in one of the traditional songs of the Kushiro Ainu and in the lyrics of an ancient songs called 'Yuukara' from the Saru Ainu (a group of Japanese aboriginals who have lived in the northern part of Japan since the Jomon period).

The song of Kushiro Ainu described the following story: "There was a standard whale on the Toya coast. A young fellow found it. He shouted the news around from village to village." Although Toya is currently located about 12 km from the shore line, it was on the shore about 4,000 to 5,000 years ago when the Kushiro Plains was still a part of the ocean. Several pieces of Jomon (straw-rope pattern) pottery were found in Toya shell mounds.

In the 'Yuukara', whales are mentioned: "Killer whale, god of the ocean, please bring more than one and a half whales every year. Then, I will be pleased to give my sweet daughter as your bride." As can be seen from this ancient song, the whale was a very important source of food for ancient people of Japan.

The other historical evidence can be found among the objects excavated from shell mounds. Shell mounds have been found all over Japan and provide much information about ancient people's diets. They contain bones of deer, wild boars, whales, dolphins, sea lions, fur seals and so on. This indicates that the people of the Jomon period ate whales.

Then, how did they catch large whales? They were able to hunt most mammals and animals except whales by using bow, spear and gaff. Could they hunt whales with these tools? One picture which was found from a shell mound solved this question.

http://luna.pos.to/whale/jwa_trad.html

japanesse have eaten whale for a long time! so why should they change they're eating habits, ok dont kill all the whales, and let them populate, we have a problem with Cod in this country it has been eating so much that its difficult to get a fish shop to sell you one now

What's your point about Cod? Are you saying it's a problem just because you might not be able to buy one with your chips, or are you saying it's a bad thing that humans are wiping out a species of fish?

I'm against whaling regardless of how many whales there may or may not be, purely for my own moral reasons. What adds insult to inury is when the Japanese goverment claim to be conducting scientific research, presumably the sort of research that results in whale meat appearing in the Japanese market place. :(

i believe some species being hunted are endangered also the japanese go after sharks some of which are endangered also most ocean going like deep water sharks have rapidly gone down in numbers to to hunting for the fins

i believe some species being hunted are endangered also the japanese go after sharks some of which are endangered also most ocean going like deep water sharks have rapidly gone down in numbers to to hunting for the fins

Do you not have periods, commas and the capital letter shift key on your keyboard? Your posts are almost impossible to read and make sense of ....you're forcing the readers to put commas and periods into your posts!

Please learn to type, and learn English grammar.

Baron Max

....What adds insult to inury is when the Japanese goverment claim to be conducting scientific research, presumably the sort of research that results in whale meat appearing in the Japanese market place. :(

If you are going to kill an animal to study its body/organs, wouldn't it make sense to also eat that animal. No waste.
Of course I think they are lying their asses off, but...

Do you not have periods, commas and the capital letter shift key on your keyboard? Your posts are almost impossible to read and make sense of ....you're forcing the readers to put commas and periods into your posts!

Please learn to type, and learn English grammar.

Baron Max

so whats it like regenerating a lost limb. does it hurt? how long does it take?

If you are going to kill an animal to study its body/organs, wouldn't it make sense to also eat that animal. No waste.
Of course I think they are lying their asses off, but...

It won't be very fresh after it's been studied by scientists... but then of course we all know it's bullshit, and I'm sure the Japanese know that we know.

What's your point about Cod? Are you saying it's a problem just because you might not be able to buy one with your chips, or are you saying it's a bad thing that humans are wiping out a species of fish?

I'm against whaling regardless of how many whales there may or may not be, purely for my own moral reasons. What adds insult to inury is when the Japanese goverment claim to be conducting scientific research, presumably the sort of research that results in whale meat appearing in the Japanese market place. :(


actually both, because if we just laid of the cod for a while then the stocks will be higher again and there wouldne be a problem

So, the Japanese and Norwegians should stop hunting and eating whales because most Westerners don't like the idea of killing whales.

I am pretty sure most people in India don't like the idea of killing cows for food. Perhaps we should stop killing them because of the sensibilities of the Indians.

Koreans eat dogs. Most of us see dogs as pets. Should the Koreans stop killing and eating dogs because we don't like it.

People are too ethnocentric. We don't like something so we expect every other culture to also not like it. There are people in the world who like eating whale meat just as there are people in the world who enjoy horse meat, beef, pork and dog. If you don't want to eat whale, don't. Don't go telling others what they can and cannot eat.

So, the Japanese and Norwegians should stop hunting and eating whales because most Westerners don't like the idea of killing whales.

I am pretty sure most people in India don't like the idea of killing cows for food. Perhaps we should stop killing them because of the sensibilities of the Indians.

Koreans eat dogs. Most of us see dogs as pets. Should the Koreans stop killing and eating dogs because we don't like it.

People are too ethnocentric. We don't like something so we expect every other culture to also not like it. There are people in the world who like eating whale meat just as there are people in the world who enjoy horse meat, beef, pork and dog. If you don't want to eat whale, don't. Don't go telling others what they can and cannot eat.

There a little difference between killing a wild animal (that's endangered to make things worse) and killing livestock thats bred for consumption.
You can't really be serious... http://enmos.eu/tempdir/bugeye.gif

Oh, but I can be serious. Which of the whales the Japanese and Norwegians are hunting are presently on the endangered species list?

Do you really think it makes a difference to the animal if it is wild or has been raised for food? Do you think cows think, "Oh, well, they're gonna kill me but that's okay. I was raised to be food anyway."?

Oh, but I can be serious. Which of the whales the Japanese and Norwegians are hunting are presently on the endangered species list?

I don't know if the whales in question are endangered, I just assumed.
Anyway, they are probably going to be endangered if those whalers have their way.


Do you really think it makes a difference to the animal if it is wild or has been raised for food? Do you think cows think, "Oh, well, they're gonna kill me but that's okay. I was raised to be food anyway."?

No, I don't think it makes a difference to the animals.
It does however make a difference to the ecosystem when you start killing of whales. The killing of meat cows have no impact on any ecosystem whatsoever.

It might have a negative effect on the ecosystem if you start killing off whales. I doubt it will have much of an effect on the ecosystem if you simply kill some whales.

It might have a negative effect on the ecosystem if you start killing off whales. I doubt it will have much of an effect on the ecosystem if you simply kill some whales.

Some whales ? Now you are being naive..

Actu;ally you know nothing of the sort. You are basing your argument on emotion and nothing else. Killing a few, and that is all they are killing when considering the total whale population, will have little negative ecological effect.

It is fine if you like whales and think they should not be killed but don't expect to refute fact with emotion. Fact trumps emotion every time.

It don't really matter. Before it's all done, humans will have sucked the planet dry of every single thing that's of any value to them .....it's just a matter of time. If the whales aren't destroyed by hunting, we'll kill them all off with pollution.

Is it just me or have your pessimism levels been rising lately?

Actu;ally you know nothing of the sort. You are basing your argument on emotion and nothing else. Killing a few, and that is all they are killing when considering the total whale population, will have little negative ecological effect.

Actually you know nothing of the sort. They are hunting an endangered species, so yes even killing a few will have a negative ecological effect.

Actually you know nothing of the sort. They are hunting an endangered species, so yes even killing a few will have a negative ecological effect.

which endangered one? Humpback whales were removed from the endangered list in some areas. In the North Atlantic they have reached pre-hunting levels. As long as Migaloo isn't hunted, I'm fine with the limited number they take.

Actu;ally you know nothing of the sort. You are basing your argument on emotion and nothing else. Killing a few, and that is all they are killing when considering the total whale population, will have little negative ecological effect.

It is fine if you like whales and think they should not be killed but don't expect to refute fact with emotion. Fact trumps emotion every time.

I did not react on emotion at all.
I based my opinion on whalehunting in the past. Several species have been hunted almost to extinction.
Furthermore, whales are large animals that do not reproduce very fast.
And there are not a very many of them at all. Whales need vast feeding grounds.

I did not react on emotion at all.
I based my opinion on whalehunting in the past. Several species have been hunted almost to extinction.
Furthermore, whales are large animals that do not reproduce very fast.
And there are not a very many of them at all. Whales need vast feeding grounds.

yes and all of us are against over hunting them. Stocks of whales are back up and they are basically just culling the herd. Japan isn't talking about an all out every man for himself hunting season. 50 humpbacks lost won't hurt the species.

yes and all of us are against over hunting them. Stocks of whales are back up and they are basically just culling the herd. Japan isn't talking about an all out every man for himself hunting season. 50 humpbacks lost won't hurt the species.

50 humpbacks a year I assume ? And Norway ? Humpbacks are highly migratory.
Humpbacks have bounced back because they were protected. And their numbers are in some places approaching pre-whaling numbers, in other places they are still critically endangered.
Humpbacks are already under great stress from chemical and noise pollution. What if their prey populations also drop ?
All things combined the number may start to decline again soon.
There is also no need to hunt them, so why do it ? Whale hunting is done in a barbaric way.

I have no problem with whale hunting. But I will agree Japan is wrong on this one. They should be hunting to the north.

The status of the Southern Ocean Sanctuary can be reviewed by the IWC every 10 years, and during the 2004 meeting a proposal was made by Japan to remove the sanctuary but it failed to reach the 75% majority required (it received 25 votes in favour and 30 votes against with two abstentions).

Japan has continued to hunt whales inside the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary until 2005, as scientific whaling is not prohibited by the IWC rules. The catch of the 2005 season (Dec 05-Mar 06)inside the sanctuary included 856 minke whales and ten of the endangered Fin whale

I wonder if other countries will just stand buy or if they will take action. All I se are civilians (Greenpeace) doing something

I have no problem with whale hunting. But I will agree Japan is wrong on this one. They should be hunting to the north.

The status of the Southern Ocean Sanctuary can be reviewed by the IWC every 10 years, and during the 2004 meeting a proposal was made by Japan to remove the sanctuary but it failed to reach the 75% majority required (it received 25 votes in favour and 30 votes against with two abstentions).

Japan has continued to hunt whales inside the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary until 2005, as scientific whaling is not prohibited by the IWC rules. The catch of the 2005 season (Dec 05-Mar 06)inside the sanctuary included 856 minke whales and ten of the endangered Fin whale

I wonder if other countries will just stand buy or if they will take action. All I se are civilians (Greenpeace) doing something

Yep, humpbacks are endangered in those areas. And they comprise their own genepool as well.
Governments don't seem to care until things go wrong, it's usually that way.

If all the freakin' whales disappeared tomorrow, what difference would it make to your life? I mean, ....really.

There have been numerous animal species that have disappeared from the Earth ...did it affect any of you in any real way? Or did your life just keep on going as before?

Baron Max

If all the freakin' whales disappeared tomorrow, what difference would it make to your life? I mean, ....really.

There have been numerous animal species that have disappeared from the Earth ...did it affect any of you in any real way? Or did your life just keep on going as before?

Baron Max

Not yet, wait a few generations..

Not yet, wait a few generations..

Hmm, I'm not sure, but I don't think any of us will be around in a few generations. So, therefore, it don't fuckin' matter, right? :D

Baron Max

Hmm, I'm not sure, but I don't think any of us will be around in a few generations. So, therefore, it don't fuckin' matter, right? :D

Baron Max

It does matter if you give a shit about this planet (humans excluded).

It does matter if you give a shit about this planet (humans excluded).

Well, I don't give a shit about humans, and I do give a shit about the other animals, but the reality is ....I can do nothing about it, so why should I lose any sleep over it? Especially since no one else is.

Baron Max

Well, I don't give a shit about humans...

but...but...oh yeah! well....I hate you too!!! :bawl:

Well, I don't give a shit about humans, and I do give a shit about the other animals, but the reality is ....I can do nothing about it, so why should I lose any sleep over it? Especially since no one else is.

Baron Max

I agree except for this part: "Especially since no one else is"
If you don't give a shit about humans why do you care what everyone else does or doesn't do ?

I agree except for this part: "Especially since no one else is"
If you don't give a shit about humans why do you care what everyone else does or doesn't do ?

Okay, delete that part from my message. Feel better now?

Baron Max

Okay, delete that part from my message. Feel better now?

Baron Max

I do :D

People are too ethnocentric. We don't like something so we expect every other culture to also not like it. There are people in the world who like eating whale meat just as there are people in the world who enjoy horse meat, beef, pork and dog. If you don't want to eat whale, don't. Don't go telling others what they can and cannot eat.

Why not? We tell others what they can or cannot do all the time, what's so sacred about eating habits?

Sometimes it is hard to prove ethical positions because they are based on intuition.

I hate the killing of whales and I hope it stops.