Were Neanderthals Unable To Throw Their Spears During Hunting?

This interesting article which discusses the possibility of the interbreeding between Neanderthals and H. Sapiens suggests that the Neanderthals were unable to throw their spears; Humans and Neanderthals interbred

This has potentially big consequences relating to the advantage that H. Sapiens must have had over our stockier and hardier rivals. This article seems to support the notion: Neanderthal Lacked Anatomical Competitive Edge: Skeletal Remains Tell the Story (2009) :

 

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Three points, CSS;

1) Whether the humans and neanderthals raided or traded with each other, the exchange of females would have gone on, one way or another, so inevitably there would have been some genetic interchange, though who knows how much; we either have a Clan-of-the-Cave-Bear scenario of a modern human female getting mixed in with a neanderthal tribe, or we get a neanderthal woman brought into a human clan--it must have gone on.

2) The lack of the ability to throw a spear may have given the neanderthals some grief, in that they wouldn't be able to do long distance hunting, ie throw the spear and wound or kill an animal 20 yards away, for instance. However, they wouldn't neccesarily have been at a disadvantage in forest hunting, where the ability to throw a spear wouldn't be anywhere near so important. A spear is just as effective as a quick-stabbing weapon, and the average neanderthal certainly had enough weight behind him (or her) to put in a killing thrust. It would most likely have meant that the average neanderthal was an opportunistic hunter, relying on the luck of finding the occasional animal trapped in a bog.

3) The other alternative for hunting is that the neanderthal band was thoroughly well acquainted with their hunting territory (obviously) and knew where all the good bogs or ravines were; firstly to avoid falling in themselves, and secondly in order to co-operate in a drive to push animals into the bog or ravine and get an easy kill, without the obvious danger of getting too close to a charging mammoth. It's a lot safer to stab something once it's been immobilised or trapped...

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I appreciate what you are saying Xylene, but I'm more concerned with the territorial disputes that must have happened between neanderthals and our ancestors. These encounters would have been more important than mere hunting techniques. A stand-off weapon is hugely advantageous in military situations and is continously exploited to this day.

I agree that some interbreeding would have taken place. The link in the OP suggests that the offspring were also born without "a throwing arm" though and so still at a evolutionary disadvantage.

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I don't understand why lack of bilateral asymmetry/humeral retroversion meant they couldn't throw their spears.

Surely if you had enough strength you could throw a spear anyway? Also, couldn't you simply learn to throw it, even if that movement was naturally very awkward?

Someone please explain.

 

VI, I googled the title 'neanderthals spear throwing ability' and came up with the following links, among others;

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/4251299.stm

http://www.bukisa.com/articles/48771_neanderthals-lack-of-projectile-weapons.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/tvradio/programmes/horizon/neanderthal_prog_summary.shtml

http://cogweb.ucla.edu/ep/NeanderthalParadigm.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neanderthal_extinction_hypotheses.

Hope these are useful...

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If you read some of Xylene's links, you'll see that it's not just a matter of the anatomy of the shoulder. The neanderthal's entire body type, psychology, and way of life was based upon close quarter hunting. He was enormously strong and would hunt in forests, probably in pairs, by stabbing very large prey animals with spears. Modern humans (cro magnon) hunted in larger groups using projectile weapons (spears for throwing, bow/arrows, etc.) and hunted in more open areas (plains, deserts) suitable for projectile weapons.

 

And all that is just pure speculation based on a few old bones!

It's also just pure speculation that's been passed on as if it's something other than pure speculation ....and it's been passed on down so much that people now actually believe that it's all true and has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

It's much like the theory of evolution itself ...say something, repeat something often enough and more and more people come to believe that it's all true and factual. ...when it's all just pure speculation!

Baron Max

 

Actually Max it's pretty well documented based on weapons found, hunting injuries sustained fatal or non fatal AND guesses based on physiology that they did not use projectile weapons. So while it's still a guess, it's pretty much the only guess available.

 

I know that. I read the link, I was just intrigued as to how someone's arm and shoulder morphology could be so formed that they actually could not throw a spear.

Thanks for links Xylene!

 

How many of those weapons found and injuries discovered? Out of how many Neanderthals that might have been hunting in that period? Are there enough weapons and injuries found to make such sweeping conclusions about the entire group of Neanderthals?

I think wild guesses are just fine (and fun sometimes), but we, as a group, need to be careful that we don't allow those fun little games of speculation to "become" more than that.

Read some of the posts here on this forum ...read some of the wild speculations that have been posted as pure, irrefutable fact. ...and people read that shit and believe it. Then they go off and post it on some other forums!

If we "found" some handguns and some old injuries in Los Angeles, then we could conclude that all of the people who live in LA in 2000-2009 are blood-thirsty, violent, murdering savages! And we know that's not true ...it's only about half of the people, not all!

Baron Max

 

You're welcome, VI:
Here's a link about Mousterian tool culture, which was the tool tech that was most associated with Neanderthals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousterian

Go down to the bottom of the page and check the external links--they're quite interesting.

 

You are somewhat correct Max, I mean they find one, only one skull of a small person in the Flores and it's a whole new sup-species of Homo. THat's just pure bullshit in my opinion, considering all abnormally large skulls/bones (and they are far more numerous) are just dismissed as "Gigantism". This particular science is rife with predetermined preference to explaining finds.

So ya it is possible they chucked stuff, but honestly I think they sure sucked at it, at least compared to Homo Sapiens. At best - they threw like a girl.

 

My personal opinion is that the Neanderthals were simply more like regular animals, far too trusting when they should have been more vigilant, and easily lured into contact.

I think HomoSapiens did to the Neanderthals exactly what they've been doing to all of the other animals on Earth ...trying to wipe them out!

I think the Neanderthals might have been overly friendly, overly trusting, like dogs perhaps. The HomoS's lured them into ambushes and happily killed them all ...just for the fun of it. If the HomoS's had had nuclear weapons, they'd have used those, too!!

Most of y'all need to look at humans a little more critically and with a better view of what they've done in the past ...as well as what they're doing in the present. Humans suck ....and those of you who can't see that are either just plain fuckin' ignorant, or you've had the wool pulled over yer' eyes.

Baron Max

 

They have a lot more than "one skull".

Not that one complete skull wouldn't be enough, btw.

As far as throwing - most humans can't throw very well. Watch the videos of the Palestinian kids throwing rocks at the Israeli tanks. It isn't easy - try throwing with your other arm. This lack of throwing by Neandertals is a lack of diligent practice and cultural reinforcement, a mental feature, not anatomical destiny. All human cultures that throw have important toy and game training arrangements for young boys to spend hours at, with little or no immediate benefit - boomerangs, slings, rebounding balls.

Humans apparently became more like us in a dry and open environment, where prey is small and wary and visible at a distance, and small thrown weapons are valuable in the early stages, before refinement and innovation. The later innovations that confronted the Neandertals (bows and arrows, atlatls, throwing sticks, etc) arise out of a culture already throwing things routinely and seriously.

 

It could be that H. Sapiens and H. Neanderthalis tolerated each other's presence in Europe because for a long time, when H. Sapiens entered Europe originally;

A) they took a while to get to know the lay of the land, whereas obviously the local Neanderthals knew it intimately;

B) more importantly, they probably had different hunting territories, with the Neanderthals sticking to the deep forests, and the H. Sapiens sticking to the open country; each group would have concentrated their attention on the territory that gave them the best luck with their particular hunting style.

C) If there were any Neanderthals out in the open plains of northern Europe, where the colder weather would have reduced tree cover, they most likely would have been driven off the plains and into the forests by the arrival of modern Humans.

D) It could be that the modern Humans tried at first to treat the Neanderthals as they treated each other, ie. let's see if we can trade or mate with these people, and only realised later, after some skirmishes, that the Neanderthals weren't as mentally sharp as them; their initial cautious friendliness would have very quickly degenerated into 'let's drive these ugly bastards out of the area whenever we find them'.

 

Do you have any evidence for that assertion? I mean, if nothing else, Europe is a pretty big freakin' place ...few people even today "...know it intimately."

Evidence? Or is that just idle speculation?

Evidence? Or is that just idle speculation?

Evidence? Or is that just more idle speculation that you're trying to foist onto us as factual information of some kind?

Baron Max

 

maybe they threw rocks.

that's not going to leave evidence. Unless you work for CSI.

 

...LOL! So you question and apply skepticism to MY wild speculations, yet you type up 1,000-word dissertation-type posts without ever a single micro-ounce of skepticism applied? ...LOL!!

Fraggle, you're a hoot ....you're a real freakin' hoot!

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Interesting, but are Downs Syndrome kids throwbacks to the Neanderthal genes? I mean, Nat'l Geo Mag has drawings and a model of the Neanderthal ....and they look a whole lot like some of the Downs kids I've seen. Hmm?

And those guys on the insurance commercial on TV? Hey, isn't that proof positive that Neanderthals are actually still walkin' around amongst us??? Well, sure it is! The TV never lies!

Baron Max

 

I reckon that the throwing action of Cro Magnon may have initiated with the throwing of sea-rounded rocks and pebbles. It fits with the semi-aquatic ape theory. Is this the reason kids have an inbuilt desire to skim stones when they're on the beach? I saw a TV documentary where a troup of spider monkeys lived on a rocky cliff face within the south american jungle. If a jaguar approached, the monkeys would retreat to higher ground but instinctively throw rocks (underarm) towards the big cat at the earliest opportunity. The tactic worked well enough to make the jaguar retreat back from where it came from. This simple idea fits well with the abundance of ammunition that is available in a coastal estuary environment. A group of early humans hurling rocks and pebbles would be a tremendous defensive weapon that would confuse and disuade most predators from attack.