Humans have an idea that they have free thought but i totaly disagree, we are no more free thinking than a computer.

In theory evry part of the human body could be artificially created and so there is nothing about being alive that makes us better than simply a very complicated machine.

We appear to make decisions from our own choice but infact we are simply calculating the value of variables based upon a pre defined desire.

I think that the human mind is like a computer program, it could go something like this

if ( $that_woman == $myideaofanicewoman) { $gooutwithher = true;}

We do not have free thought which is why i think we would repeatedly make the same decisions in the same situations.

i do not think that i have ever had free thought and am not alive.

i agree about the free thought concept being self contradicting, but whether or not we are alive I think is just a matter of how you define it. I agree you would have to be careful with that and be hard pressed to find a definition that encompasses us but leaves out computers... It might end up just arbitrary like "made of flesh".

Your obviously a programmer... I could give you a model of an extremely general system that possibly governs human behavior, and it has some similarities to some programming languages but different as well. But then again I guess you could liken it to a low level programming language and just say that somethign like that could represent our thinking if you assume certain foundations have already been made...

we have free choice. our free choice is based on what makes us unique. we make decisions from our own choice--that is, the decisions we have made in the past cause us to make the decisions we make now. and the decisions we made in the past are because of the decisions before that, all the way back to our birth when our first decisions were made by our parents. the physical and chemical structure of our brains has some influence on our decisions, but mostly in the fact that it limits our abilities as 'intelligent beings'.

We're not alive at all
You're not thinking at all

Humans have an idea that they have free thought but i totaly disagree, we are no more free thinking than a computer.

In theory evry part of the human body could be artificially created and so there is nothing about being alive that makes us better than simply a very complicated machine.

We appear to make decisions from our own choice but infact we are simply calculating the value of variables based upon a pre defined desire.

I think that the human mind is like a computer program, it could go something like this

if ( $that_woman == $myideaofanicewoman) { $gooutwithher = true;}

We do not have free thought which is why i think we would repeatedly make the same decisions in the same situations.

i do not think that i have ever had free thought and am not alive.
as you think/believe/assume/enclose...so you ARE. and so you impose on living organic reality. machine head!

Some interesting thoughts here.... but Pi, you're thinking that you're not alive is a non sequitor whether or not you think you enjoy free will. In any case, while I agree overall with your position, the simple fact that we have the power of election is sufficient (for me) to substantiate a claim to free will. Regardless of the statistical analysis involved, and the supposed goal(s) sought after, there is an agent that determines whether or not it succeeds. I agree with you that the choice-matrix is, for the most part, determined outside of the scope of the individual involved, but the path taken is elective.

machine-head-thinking is making/HAS made world a prisonplanet!
it devaues Organism andNature. this is CLEARLY seen when you look closely at patriarchal mysticism, mythology, philosophy, religion, secula humansim. mechanistic science---all stemming from same root---PATRIARCHY!

checkout yer Genesis. what's its creation myth. all about how 'free will' is a sin right? ie., te PREMISEbeing that there is A 'God' hovering above Nature. apart from Nature. sos the REACTION to tat gives us this--what has happened since, espcially last 500 years of encroaching fast escalating mechanization of ourselves and sense of Nature. so cant you see. its been an out of the frying pan into the fire.....?

THIS is why yo feels the wayt you do. ie., like a machine. cause the very SYSTE--mechancial system has indoctrinated
its metalic tentaces into your very sense of being. see it!

duendy, you should stop your racist thoughts about machines.

we have free choice. our free choice is based on what makes us unique. we make decisions from our own choice--that is, the decisions we have made in the past cause us to make the decisions we make now. and the decisions we made in the past are because of the decisions before that, all the way back to our birth when our first decisions were made by our parents. the physical and chemical structure of our brains has some influence on our decisions, but mostly in the fact that it limits our abilities as 'intelligent beings'.

Arn't our choices governed by the makeup of our brain and the influences of the outside world? Do we really "make" them, or are they just an evolutionary result of genetic and environmental stimuli? If thought about this way, it could easily be argued that we don't actually make any decisions. They just happen.

Arn't our choices governed by the makeup of our brain and the influences of the outside world? Do we really "make" them, or are they just an evolutionary result of genetic and environmental stimuli? If thought about this way, it could easily be argued that we don't actually make any decisions. They just happen.

You're missing the crucial point: our possible paths are indeed (partially) governed by the external world, but ultimately, the act of choosing does take place, determining (post facto) the actual path.

yes. tis is my advice. ALWAYS when inquiring, asking queston, BE AWARE of te alnguage your using---your premises, etc. for example when you say: so, what IS it/reality? deterministic or free will?

well i say LOOK FIRST at how you are asking the quewstion. dontleaveit unexamined or you are asking blindly from an UN-examined premise.

so in that regard. we look AT the question and what do we find. we find we are asking from a dualistic premise, and eithe/or logic.
Rathe see that reality is a process. out of which we have abstracted 'determined' and 'free will'....it is a LIVING CREATIVE process which our language cant grasp in its form of syntax

annnnnd also ALWAYS remember you have the POWER of choice

Arn't our choices governed by the makeup of our brain and the influences of the outside world? Do we really "make" them, or are they just an evolutionary result of genetic and environmental stimuli? If thought about this way, it could easily be argued that we don't actually make any decisions. They just happen.
yes, our choices are governed by the structure and composition of our brain and body (our genetics) as well as "environmental stimuli". but you have to remember that those are the things that make us individualistic. so rather than saying this contradicts free-will, realize that it actually defines it. we are not seperate from the universe because we would not be alive if we were really individuals--that is we would not have air, water, food, or the energy that allows us to even think for one second. so the environment around us is really part of our living being. our choices are governed by these things because these things are what make us who we are.

Humans have an idea that they have free thought but i totaly disagree, we are no more free thinking than a computer.

In theory evry part of the human body could be artificially created and so there is nothing about being alive that makes us better than simply a very complicated machine.

We appear to make decisions from our own choice but infact we are simply calculating the value of variables based upon a pre defined desire.

I think that the human mind is like a computer program, it could go something like this

if ( $that_woman == $myideaofanicewoman) { $gooutwithher = true;}

We do not have free thought which is why i think we would repeatedly make the same decisions in the same situations.

i do not think that i have ever had free thought and am not alive.You are wrong pi-sudoku, you are both alive and have free thought.

But I wonder if you have the ability to see what is and not constantly researching into the unknown.

You are probably less alive than you should be, and you have probably less free will than you should have. Was it that computers would take over the world? I'd rather think it's taking over the mind.

You don't know anything about how you work, your brain is as much unknown for you as your concept of what is genuinly true.

We aren't fooled, we are naturally alive, and naturally have free will.

In what part of your conceptions can you realise lack of free will? Could you not do whatever you can? I can, then I can do.

Free will is of course not a tool to manipulate the world, it is a tool to walk freely in it. What you can't do mustn't be of concern of your free will (many people misunderstand this, and think 'free will' must mean they can do anything - sure anything, but anything that can be done).

Aren't you lost pi-sudoku? What have you to say in your defence?

"but the scientists told me".

What about what reality tells you? Wake up. You haven't got more free will than you are aware of, but not less either. Whatever you can imagine you can do, as long as the current situation allows it.


Another way of looking at it, is that you have free will as much as you can use it. Can't you do anything that you want to do? Do you feel some invisible barrier blocking your will to not be free?

Using free will you can even do things that you wouldn't normally do.

Some even kill themselves, how do you explain that? Don't you feel angry sometimes? Depressed? All those things are because you are aware of what you feel, you can't say that you aren't aware can you? If you are aware then you can change what you are aware of with the limits presented in the situation.

Everything here is solid-proof, so lay down your bad thoughts that limit your life.

yes, our choices are governed by the structure and composition of our brain and body (our genetics) as well as "environmental stimuli". but you have to remember that those are the things that make us individualistic. so rather than saying this contradicts free-will, realize that it actually defines it. we are not seperate from the universe because we would not be alive if we were really individuals--that is we would not have air, water, food, or the energy that allows us to even think for one second. so the environment around us is really part of our living being. our choices are governed by these things because these things are what make us who we are.

I think that the phrase "choices are governed" is slightly oxymoronic. If choices are governed by by our bodies response to stimuli, then are they really choices? I can see how it could be argued either way, but my point is that choices are not at all completely free --because they are always a result of something. If you were born in the 12th century, you would most likely take on different moral values. Its not really your choice, its just how your body responds to the ethical values, traditions, and pressures of that time period.

I think that the phrase "choices are governed" is slightly oxymoronic. If choices are governed by by our bodies response to stimuli, then are they really choices? I can see how it could be argued either way, but my point is that choices are not at all completely free --because they are always a result of something. If you were born in the 12th century, you would most likely take on different moral values. Its not really your choice, its just how your body responds to the ethical values, traditions, and pressures of that time period.
but at the same time it is your choice because it is the same things that govern your choices that also determine your personality. that which makes you individualistic determines your choices. and you should think of these outside influences as part of yourself. your genes and the experiences you go through (as caused in part by the interaction between stimuli and your physical character) are what make you unique.

But if choices are a result of outside influences, are they really [i]free[/] choices?

But if choices are a result of outside influences, are they really free choices?

But if choices are a result of outside influences, are they really free choices?
if you look at it that way, then no. but thats not how it is; they are not outside influences. they are part of what makes us individuals and therefore they are part of who we are.

if you look at it that way, then no. but thats not how it is; they are not outside influences. they are part of what makes us individuals and therefore they are part of who we are.


That seems reasonable --but if we're all a part of each other, are we really individuals? Taking your view I could see it being argued either way. We could be individuals because although we all influence each other, we have a seperate conscience. On the other hand, if we are all connected in such an unviodable fashion it seems as though we arn't individuals. Thiw could be because we are all controlled by each other in the bounce back manner of society. (I think this, so you think that, but because you think that I'll think this,...and so on)

Just a thought.

That seems reasonable --but if we're all a part of each other, are we really individuals? Taking your view I could see it being argued either way. We could be individuals because although we all influence each other, we have a seperate conscience. On the other hand, if we are all connected in such an unviodable fashion it seems as though we arn't individuals. Thiw could be because we are all controlled by each other in the bounce back manner of society. (I think this, so you think that, but because you think that I'll think this,...and so on)

Just a thought.
yeah, i think i would have to agree. i think as the more conscious we get of the minute cause and effects--in other words the more we know about how the universe works--the more we will be aware of how every little thing effects every other little thing and we will realize how everything is connected.

I am what I am. Its good enough until something better comes along.

yeah, i think i would have to agree. i think as the more conscious we get of the minute cause and effects--in other words the more we know about how the universe works--the more we will be aware of how every little thing effects every other little thing and we will realize how everything is connected.


Exactly! It's all cause and effect --and that is what makes discussing free will and life so complicated.