View Full Version : We cannot afford to maintain these ancient prejudices against Islam


outlandish
10-08-06, 07:14 PM
We cannot afford to maintain these ancient prejudices against Islam.

by Karen Armstrong


In the 12th century, Peter the Venerable, Abbot of Cluny, initiated a dialogue with the Islamic world. "I approach you not with arms, but with words," he wrote to the Muslims whom he imagined reading his book, "not with force, but with reason, not with hatred, but with love." Yet his treatise was entitled Summary of the Whole Heresy of the Diabolical Sect of the Saracens and segued repeatedly into spluttering intransigence. Words failed Peter when he contemplated the "bestial cruelty" of Islam, which, he claimed, had established itself by the sword. Was Muhammad a true prophet? "I shall be worse than a donkey if I agree," he expostulated, "worse than cattle if I assent!"

Peter was writing at the time of the Crusades. Even when Christians were trying to be fair, their entrenched loathing of Islam made it impossible for them to approach it objectively. For Peter, Islam was so self-evidently evil that it did not seem to occur to him that the Muslims he approached with such "love" might be offended by his remarks. This medieval cast of mind is still alive and well.

Last week, Pope Benedict XVI quoted, without qualification and with apparent approval, the words of the 14th-century Byzantine emperor Manuel II: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." The Vatican seemed bemused by the Muslim outrage occasioned by the Pope's words, claiming that the Holy Father had simply intended "to cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, and obviously also towards Islam".

But the Pope's good intentions seem far from obvious. Hatred of Islam is so ubiquitous and so deeply rooted in western culture that it brings together people who are usually at daggers drawn. Neither the Danish cartoonists, who published the offensive caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad last February, nor the Christian fundamentalists who have called him a paedophile and a terrorist, would ordinarily make common cause with the Pope; yet on the subject of Islam they are in full agreement.

Our Islamophobia dates back to the time of the Crusades, and is entwined with our chronic anti-semitism. Some of the first Crusaders began their journey to the Holy Land by massacring the Jewish communities along the Rhine valley; the Crusaders ended their campaign in 1099 by slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem. It is always difficult to forgive people we know we have wronged. Thenceforth Jews and Muslims became the shadow-self of Christendom, the mirror image of everything that we hoped we were not - or feared that we were.

The fearful fantasies created by Europeans at this time endured for centuries and reveal a buried anxiety about Christian identity and behaviour. When the popes called for a Crusade to the Holy Land, Christians often persecuted the local Jewish communities: why march 3,000 miles to Palestine to liberate the tomb of Christ, and leave unscathed the people who had - or so the Crusaders mistakenly assumed - actually killed Jesus. Jews were believed to kill little children and mix their blood with the leavened bread of Passover:
this "blood libel" regularly inspired pogroms in Europe, and the image of the Jew as the child slayer laid bare an almost Oedipal terror of the parent faith.

Jesus had told his followers to love their enemies, not to exterminate them. It was when the Christians of Europe were fighting brutal holy wars against Muslims in the Middle East that Islam first became known in the west as the religion of the sword. At this time, when the popes were trying to impose celibacy on the reluctant clergy, Muhammad was portrayed by the scholar monks of Europe as a lecher, and Islam condemned - with ill-concealed envy - as a faith that encouraged Muslims to indulge their basest sexual instincts. At a time when European social order was deeply hierarchical, despite the egalitarian message of the gospel, Islam was condemned for giving too much respect to women and other menials.

In a state of unhealthy denial, Christians were projecting subterranean disquiet about their activities on to the victims of the Crusades, creating fantastic enemies in their own image and likeness. This habit has persisted. The Muslims who have objected so vociferously to the Pope's denigration of Islam have accused him of "hypocrisy", pointing out that the Catholic church is ill-placed to condemn violent jihad when it has itself been guilty of unholy violence in crusades, persecutions and inquisitions and, under Pope Pius XII, tacitly condoned the Nazi Holocaust.

Pope Benedict delivered his controversial speech in Germany the day after the fifth anniversary of September 11. It is difficult to believe that his reference to an inherently violent strain in Islam was entirely accidental. He has, most unfortunately, withdrawn from the interfaith initiatives inaugurated by his predecessor, John Paul II, at a time when they are more desperately needed than ever. Coming on the heels of the Danish cartoon crisis, his remarks were extremely dangerous. They will convince more Muslims that the west is incurably Islamophobic and engaged in a new crusade.

We simply cannot afford this type of bigotry. The trouble is that too many people in the western world unconsciously share this prejudice, convinced that Islam and the Qur'an are addicted to violence. The 9/11 terrorists, who in fact violated essential Islamic principles, have confirmed this deep-rooted western perception and are seen as typical Muslims instead of the deviants they really were.

With disturbing regularity, this medieval conviction surfaces every time there is trouble in the Middle East. Yet until the 20th century, Islam was a far more tolerant and peaceful faith than Christianity. The Qur'an strictly forbids any coercion in religion and regards all rightly guided religion as coming from God; and despite the western belief to the contrary, Muslims did not impose their faith by the sword.

The early conquests in Persia and Byzantium after the Prophet's death were inspired by political rather than religious aspirations. Until the middle of the eighth century, Jews and Christians in the Muslim empire were actively discouraged from conversion to Islam, as, according to Qur'anic teaching, they had received authentic revelations of their own. The extremism and intolerance that have surfaced in the Muslim world in our own day are a response to intractable political problems - oil, Palestine, the occupation of Muslim lands, the prevelance of authoritarian regimes in the Middle East, and the west's perceived "double standards" - and not to an ingrained religious imperative.

But the old myth of Islam as a chronically violent faith persists, and surfaces at the most inappropriate moments. As one of the received ideas of the west, it seems well-nigh impossible to eradicate. Indeed, we may even be strengthening it by falling back into our old habits of projection. As we see the violence - in Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon - for which we bear a measure of responsibility, there is a temptation, perhaps, to blame it all on "Islam". But if we are feeding our prejudice in this way, we do so at our peril.

Karen Armstrong is the author of Islam: A Short History

Baron Max
10-08-06, 07:17 PM
Duh ....do you expect people to read all that shit after reading the title?

Besides, in a free society, we should be free to be prejudiced against anyone or any group that we choose. To try to force us or intimidate us to do otherwise is attempting to take away some of those freedoms ....and that ain't nice.

Baron Max

S.A.M.
10-08-06, 07:18 PM
Duh ....do you expect people to read all that shit after reading the title?

Besides, in a free society, we should be free to be prejudiced against anyone or any group that we choose. To try to force us or intimidate us to do otherwise is attempting to take away some of those freedoms ....and that ain't nice.

Baron Max

Why do you support prejudice, Baron?

Baron Max
10-08-06, 07:22 PM
Why do you support prejudice, Baron?

I didn't say I did, Sam .....try reading what I wrote for a change!

I said that I support the freedom to be prejudiced if that's what we choose. That, Sam, is what freedom is all about ......freedom is NOT forcing or coercing or intimidating a people to do what you or anyone else thinks is best.

Baron Max

S.A.M.
10-08-06, 07:24 PM
I didn't say I did, Sam .....try reading what I wrote for a change!

I said that I support the freedom to be prejudiced if that's what we choose. That, Sam, is what freedom is all about ......freedom is NOT forcing or coercing or intimidating a people to do what you or anyone else thinks is best.

Baron Max

Do you choose to be prejudiced, Baron?

outlandish
10-08-06, 07:27 PM
Baron:

Duh ....do you expect people to read all that shit after reading the title?
perish the thought of you excersising a little effort in order to counteract your deeply ingrained ignorance to increase your level of knowledge and understanding.
Furthermore had the title been: "muslim fuckers are all terrorists: the proof"
you would have sat on your lardy redneck ass for 3 hours, and read 1000 pages of bullshit as long as it supported your indoctrinated bigotry.

wallow in the darkness amerikaan.

Baron Max
10-08-06, 07:30 PM
Do you choose to be prejudiced, Baron?

No, not exactly. I hate any and all humans, of any and all faiths, of any and all cultures, in any and all areas of the world. Perhaps not equal hatred and revulsion, but it's pretty close! The ones I hate the least is those who live as close to nature, as close to being animals, as possible ....like the tribes in the Amazon and some in Indonesia.

But, no, Sam ....I essentially just hate everyone pretty much equally.

Baron Max

Baron Max
10-08-06, 07:32 PM
...to increase your level of knowledge and understanding.

Why? Who gives a shit?

...wallow in the darkness amerikaan.

It ain't only Americans who wallow in darkness, my friend. Perhaps that's one of your mistakes, huh? How many other mistakes have you made?

Baron Max

Maikeru
10-08-06, 11:20 PM
Armstrong's article has some good information, but unfortunately is biased and presents information that is mostly positive to Islam and negative to Christianity. Both faiths have times of great "reason" as well as "unreason." Some things it fails to mention... Holy wars and the expansion of Islam across northern Africa, into Europe (the Iberian peninsula, central and SE Europe), and into central and southern Asia (northern India, destruction of holy sites and temples as well as massacres of thousands in cities, during the conquests of certain Muslim warlords like Timur the Lame--Tamurlane). Activities resulting in the deaths and enslavement of countless peoples in the Americas by conquistadors or "enlightened" Christian European powers during the 1600s-1800s. More "enlightened" thinking by European powers in Africa and Australia. Treatment of non-Muslims harshly and unjustly, even in the "civilized" Ottoman empire, through practices such as penalty taxes, enslavement of Christian children as janissaries, concubines, prostitutes, etc. As you can see, there are an almost unlimited number of facts and figures to be pulled from history. I think she makes the same, or a worse, mistake than the one she argues against by generalizing 1400 years of one faith and 2000 years of another. What was often political then was also religious, and what was religious was political. To try to draw a neat, objective view of what happened then as opposed to what is happening now is sham objectivity at best, self-deluded thinking at worst. One must approach these on a case-by-case basis, for religion and history are anything but changeless.

John99
10-09-06, 02:20 AM
Yet until the 20th century, Islam was a far more tolerant and peaceful faith than Christianity.

Gee, is that good or bad?

LOL

the Crusaders ended their campaign in 1099 by slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem.

slaughtering some 30,000 Muslims and Jews in Jerusalem.

i wonder who counted?

i remember that. 1099, the crusaders marched chanting "tonight were gonna party like it's 1099".

wonder how people can believe stuff from 1099 when we cant even believe stuff from last year/

Fraggle Rocker
10-09-06, 03:18 PM
The populations of important medieval cities are known with reasonable precision. We have ruins to show their physical size, if nothing else. Many are still standing and it's trivial work for an archeologist to determine the boundaries of newer construction and to uncover the buried older construction underneath, of which Jerusalem has several layers. Many governments took formal censuses for the planning of public services, size of administrative staff, and expected tax revenue, just like they do now.

We're not believing a story that has been passed down orally for 900 years. We're believing our own scholars whose work we're welcome to review.

The only variable in this is probably the percentage of the city's population that was actually killed in the conquest. For that we have eyewitness accounts from winners, losers and neutral observers that were written down directly. This isn't my field of expertise but a quick google yields consistent accounts from all sides that the Crusaders killed every inhabitant of the city that they could find. The only ones who could have survived would be those who escaped, certainly a tiny fraction.

As to whether the population of Jerusalem in 1099 was indeed 30,000, I'll let somebody else look that up. But it's not at all unreasonable for a key city in the western region of the westward-expanding Ottoman Empire.

spidergoat
10-09-06, 03:27 PM
DO you think it would be fair to be unprejudiced against Islam, when they are so prejudiced of infidels? What if I distain all supernatural beliefs equally?

I am convinced that Islam is basically Christianity with some additional militant aspects thrown in, not that Christianity doesn't have it's fair share of devinely inspired violence too, but it's no myth.

Fraggle Rocker
10-09-06, 03:37 PM
As for the "ancient prejudice," it works both ways and although there have been lulls, the prejudice always returns. Actually it works three ways for the Abrahamist Jews have also been both objects and perpetrators of prejudice toward and from Christians and/or Muslims.

Something about Abrahamism is a powerful force for hatred of other religions and especially competing sects of Abrahamism. I've written on this at great length on this website and I think it's the very nature of monotheism and its patriarchal societies that surpass the scope of all previous institutionalized male chauvinism.

I recently heard a speech by Red Blanket, an Indian chief of the early 19th century. He was responding to a request from a Christian priest for permission to enter an Indian nation and preach to the Indians. I haven't got a verbatim transcription, but the highlight went something like this:Almost every one of our Indian nations has its own... what you would call a "religion." We have fought with each other, but we have never fought over religion. You white men all claim to worship the same god, and with your wonderful invention of writing you even have a book in which your religion is written down and you all agree that its contents are true. Yet you fight constantly among yourselves over religion.

The white men in this village where we have met are the Indians' friends. We speak with them often, we visit each other's homes, we help each other during hard times. I see that you have been preaching to these white men. I am not going to give you permission today to preach to my people. I want to see the results of your preaching to your people. I want to see if it makes them better, more peaceful, more honorable. When I see that, that is the day that I will welcome you into my nation and allow you to preach to my people.Needless to say, the poor chief is still waiting.

John99
10-09-06, 04:05 PM
Could the Christian's and Muslim's merge?

spidergoat
10-09-06, 04:06 PM
Are you kidding me, man?

John99
10-09-06, 04:10 PM
WOW, imagine that?

Nikelodeon
10-09-06, 04:12 PM
Chrislam

spidergoat
10-09-06, 05:18 PM
http://xs307.xs.to/xs307/06412/ContributionsWorldReligions2.jpg (http://xs.to)

S.A.M.
10-09-06, 05:43 PM
LOL

Where is part 2?

spidergoat
10-09-06, 05:44 PM
http://www.thepaincomics.com/

Buffalo Roam
10-09-06, 08:00 PM
We cannot afford to allow Islam to maintain these ancient prejudices against the rest of the world's religions!

Genji
10-09-06, 08:02 PM
We must be more hostile to organized religion.

Baron Max
10-09-06, 08:12 PM
We must be more hostile to organized religion.

Organized religion is fine .....as long as they don't blow up little kids and innocent men and women in the name of their "god".

Baron Max

Genji
10-09-06, 08:14 PM
Organized religion is fine .....as long as they don't blow up little kids and innocent men and women in the name of their "god".

Baron MaxNo, organized religion isn't fine. Kill em all and burn their churches, mosques, temples and synagogues.

Baron Max
10-09-06, 08:16 PM
No, organized religion isn't fine. Kill em all and burn their churches, mosques, temples and synagogues.

Doesn't it scare you a little that now you're talking like me????

Baron Max

Roman
10-09-06, 08:19 PM
I like how when Muslims are criticized for being violent and savage, their immediate response is to get violent and savage. It's like they don't have an irony gland.

Genji
10-09-06, 08:21 PM
Doesn't it scare you a little that now you're talking like me????

Baron Max :p I'm LEAGUES above you little one.

Genji
10-09-06, 08:23 PM
I like how when Muslims are criticized for being violent and savage, their immediate response is to get violent and savage. It's like they don't have an irony gland.I notice that with conservative religious Christians. Full of violence and hate for all not of their faith, pro-war, pro-death penalty but ONE with their Jesus. Those vermin are the real threat to America.

Buffalo Roam
10-09-06, 10:29 PM
Genji, broad brush, short stroke.