View Full Version : We Are All The Same Person


Empty Dragon
11-19-02, 01:42 PM
Please forgive my if this in-correct. I was reading The Dao of Physics the other day, and i came across the section on Buddhism. We are acctualy the same person? Is it simply an idea to promote the the absense of ego and to free ones mind from the myraid world, or is it supposed to be a deeper representation of absolute truth?

kmguru
11-20-02, 12:53 AM
There is an "Aha" factor to it. Most philosophies have similar Aha factors. Absolute truth? Nay!!

Absolute truth is beyond our understanding. If you free your mind away from all sensory input from birth...what do you get? A vegetable?

So, we are vegetables too? Perhaps....but if you are one, what are you understanding?

notme2000
11-20-02, 02:16 AM
I don't think it means we all have the exact same personality and such... Look at it as islands on the ocean. Two seperate islands seem completely seperate (islands being individual people), but they only seem like seperate things cause we can't see under the water line (consciousness), but under the water, all islands are connected... So we are all the same person BEHIND our consiousness, under what we concider "me". This is the collective concsiousness theory. Our sub-consiousness is where we are all the same person, all linked... The consiousness is our own personal view on the world, which everyone else has access to through their subconcsious... Dreams being a portal to the spiritual internet, so to speak. Suddenly we see that maybe we are not learning what the color red is, but remembering... Grasping the knowledge of "red" not from the world around us, but from the collective concsiousness... "Red" was put in the collective concsiousness the first and only time it was learned.

Things we can gain from this style of belief:
- Not death of ego, but seperation from
- Acceptance and tolerance of other people
- Comfort in knowing after we leave the material world behind, we still exist in everyone else, in the collective concsiousness
- The possibility of lost loved ones communicating to you through dreams
- An explanation for deja-vu
- Re-incarnation, in a less individual way

Things to be lost by having this style of belief:
- True identity, individuality, personality
- 99.9% of your accomplishments
- Heaven (if u believed in it)
- Creativity

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 09:53 AM
Absolute truth is beyond our understanding.

We are the buddha nature. The buddha nature is the absolute truth. You cant know the absolute truth because "knowing" indicates a subject/object relationship, you can BE the absolute truth as in complete identification with it.


We are acctualy the same person? Is it simply an idea to promote the the absense of ego and to free ones mind from the myraid world, or is it supposed to be a deeper representation of absolute truth?

Acccording to buddhist belief we are all the buddha nature, notwithstanding superficial appearances to the contrary. Realization of your true nature trancends duality. Im not the expert though.

This is a question you might want to ask here:


http://www.cloudwater.org/askamonk.html

kmguru
11-20-02, 10:34 AM
We are the buddha nature. The buddha nature is the absolute truth. You cant know the absolute truth because "knowing" indicates a subject/object relationship, you can BE the absolute truth as in complete identification with it.


Identification supooses knowledge. Knowledge from sensory perception. That which can not be percieved does not provide knowledge. Therefore knowing the unknowable is a fallacy.

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 11:04 AM
Identification supooses knowledge. Knowledge from sensory perception. That which can not be percieved does not provide knowledge. Therefore knowing the unknowable is a fallacy.

Ok :) Maybe I expressed that badly and as I said Im not the expert.
What Im trying to say is that I have been in states of conciousness in which I felt that I was god-nature of some kind. Being in that state and talking about that state are two completely different things. Conventional ways conveying knowledge are no good at all in giving info about it or in helping one to get there. Its a place where the subject/object boundary is in a way exposed as a convienient fiction. in zen they say "not one, not two". Its a state that cant be known in the convientional sense because the distinction between knower and known is blurred, if for no other reason than that if one is completely identified with the totality of all things, there can necessarily be no object outside of that frame of reference to be known in any conviential way.

kmguru
11-20-02, 12:25 PM
Such a theoretical state is out of bounds by mortals...but it is nice to speculate....

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 03:00 PM
Unless we gasp the infinite can we say anything is out of bounds?

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 03:16 PM
Such a theoretical state is out of bounds by mortals...but it is nice to speculate....

Bullshit, any body whos willing to do what it takes can do it.

fadingCaptain
11-20-02, 03:24 PM
Interesting thread. Good points notme.


Unless we gasp the infinite can we say anything is out of bounds?
If not, you risk apathy and passivity.


Bullshit, any body whos willing to do what it takes can do it.
Have you?


Things we can gain from this style of belief:
These are all nice, but do not seem all that great as to warrant a leap of faith. What is the ultimate benefit/goal in this belief?

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 03:32 PM
Have you?

Ive had a taste. LSD, meditation, a couple of sponteaneous events.



These are all nice, but do not seem all that great as to warrant a leap of faith. What is the ultimate benefit/goal in this belief?

Im not sure that youd gain anything, maybe some compassion for your fellow beings, when everyone you meet wears your face you tend to be a little more interested in how things are going for them. You might gain some freedom from feeling driven, judged or boxed in. You can also gain freedom from compulsion of just about any kind.

Its a tough nut to crack, though. Usually people are driven to this only by great faith, great scepticism, emotional trauma, desperation or some extreme life circumstance.
Most humans cant muster the necessary quality and depth of surrender that it takes except through practice or desperation. Its like death. You have to give up everything including your concept of who you are. Actual death might even be easier because it at least allows you to keep your illusion of independent ego right up till the very end.

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 03:46 PM
I my self Practice Taoist meditation and Qi gung. And I know the states that you speak of. But be aware that it is very possible, that they are nothing more then figments of your own imagination. It is completly possible that the really is nothing.It si completly possible that this universe is nothing more then a simple machine and we are nothing more then dust bunnies. But that doesn't mean its true. All I am saying is be carefull. Illusions can happen when you meditate. Don't be deceived.

But does death shatter the ego? Can you hold on too your illusions at the point ot death? If illusions and over indulgence in ego are only defenses to hide from reallity. Can you really hold on to them when you are confronted with the enivitible?

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 03:57 PM
But that doesn't mean its true. All I am saying is be carefull. Illusions can happen when you meditate. Don't be deceived.

I have seen permanent and positive changes in my life because of meditation and prayer. If what Ive experienced is illusion its an extremely good illusion with lasting objectively verifiable consequences. But your right. It is possible to decieve oneself, you should always keep in touch with a teacher of some kind when doing any spiritual practice.

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 04:06 PM
Things to be lost by having this style of belief:

Theres nothing to lose.


99.9% of your accomplishments

Bullshit. Life is easier and your more productive when you untangle your own idiosyncratic fucked up-edness. Unless of course you consider jesus christ, the buddha et al to be under achievers :)

kmguru
11-20-02, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by m0rl0ck
Bullshit, any body whos willing to do what it takes can do it.

I remember a boy who tried to fly out of a Chicago high rise apartment building. Luckily, he jumped from a 4th story window and broke his legs rather than losing his life.

Limitations and boundary is physical, including Bullshit I can see from my office window when I look at the cow pasture nearby...:D

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 04:11 PM
It is allways use full to have a teacher. But a Teacher is only a guide she/he is not the path themself. Its easy to mistake the map for the terrain. The terrain is out in front of you and it allways has. All a guide can do is point you in a direction and tell you about the quick sands along the way. But if you have your wits about you you just might find your way through. It might take allot longer and the chances are much slimmer but hey you might still get there. Just don't forget its your journey.

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 04:14 PM
Hey Kmguru If the Boy prepared in advance an got a hang glidder he would have flown

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 04:19 PM
I remember a boy who tried to fly out of a Chicago high rise apartment building. Luckily, he jumped from a 4th story window and broke his legs rather than losing his life.

Limitations and boundary is physical, including Bullshit I can see from my office window when I look at the cow pasture nearby...



There is a difference between delusion and realization.

So what are you saying? That we should ignore the examples weve been given, the things spiritual teachers tell us, even our own experiences and just be complacent?
Thats pretty dreary.

kmguru
11-20-02, 04:22 PM
It helps to read the posts and context....:D

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 04:24 PM
Hey m0rl0ck it the boy would have prepared in advance he would have been capable to fly. But since he didn't he fell.

Those examples can be wrong and very well could be. Mistaking the map for the terrain.

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 04:35 PM
Hey m0rl0ck fit the boy would have prepared in advance he would have been capable to fly.


Uh maybe :)
Theres a difference between doing something stupid and delusional on the one hand, and something appropiate and constructive on the other.



It helps to read the posts and context

I though I had been. Maybe Im stupid :) Enlighten me :)

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 04:47 PM
Theres a difference between doing something stupid and delusional on the one hand, and something appropiate and constructive on the other.

Beware or rationalization of experience, you can miss out on the direct experience itself. Then all you end up with is a bunch of words. Words are mearly representation on reality not reality itself. Meaning can be convayed through words but its is not he intellectual understanding that is of intrest it is the direct experience that has the most use. But rationlization is a beautifull thing for the intellect but ot me its not worth the trade.
Wisdom and understanding come with out effort.

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 04:53 PM
Wisdom and understanding come with out effort.

Only if your a taoist :)
I think the rest of have to do a bodhi tree or the 40 days in the wilderness

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 05:01 PM
:D LOL

Oh that was a good one

LOL

Now seriously how can wisdom be restricted to going to the woods or to a Bodhi tree. Sure such things may facilitate an enviroment to attain specific wisdom but they are not the (Still LOL) sole way to attain it. Mabye even during this conversation you have learn something. Did it require a tree? Sure such thing may have lessons to learn but they are not the lessons themselfs. Map for the terrain. Some times you just get it. Hence it came with out effort.

m0rl0ck
11-20-02, 05:25 PM
Now seriously how can wisdom be restricted to going to the woods or to a Bodhi tree.

I wasnt saying that you needed any particular thing to get to a state of grace or realization, its just that from what ive seen and read and know, its takes some effort and isnt easy. My own spiritual efforts are, at this point in my lfe, languishing, due, I think, to laziness and depression. The ego is a tenacious, stealthy bastard :)

Christ and the buddha underwent various temptations and ordeals, the same kinds of temptations and ordeals that students of every spiritual stripe and denomination are being exposed to now. For most it isnt easy, you hang on to what you know (your everyday life and conciousness) for dear life. If it were easy we'd all be buddhas and christs.

As far as needing a particular place or thing to get it, heres a qoute from dogen:
Truth is not far away, it is ever present. It is not something to be attained since not one of your steps leads away from it.

Empty Dragon
11-20-02, 05:56 PM
I would not say for a second that at the begining the path is easy. To start it will be one of the hardest things anyone will ever do. There has been many a time where I wanted to quit. I wanted to be normal. I wanted to be like the rest of them. I remanied true to myself. That is the natural state of me so It really doesn't require any effort to be me. To be soemthing i am not would only cause more pain and suffering in the end. If your rationalize with out being you can get pretty depressed. You can sit on a stone and endulge in thought or you can continue the journey. There are times for both. But once I realized this conforming was no longer a temptation.

What buddha and Christ learned from these temptations that in the end the temptation wasn't important. They learned to look beyond. (I do not pretend to be at the level of Christ or Buddha, Thsi is only my interpretation)


If it were easy we'd all be buddhas and christs.

Easy is only a matter of perseption, once you realize it is only a peception you can do all things with ease. It is simply a task. Being spiritual does not require effort. It is the way you are it is the way you live, eat, breath, smile and smell. It is ever present like Dogen said. It is like a fountain in front of you all you must do is drink.


For most it isnt easy, you hang on to what you know (your everyday life and conciousness) for dear life.

You cannot get a firm grip on water since it is with out form. Any form it will adopt will only be temporary.

kmguru
11-20-02, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by m0rl0ck
I though I had been. Maybe Im stupid :) Enlighten me :)

No one is stupid, some just lack information.

Takes too long for enlightenment...:D

m0rl0ck
11-21-02, 12:17 AM
No one is stupid, some just lack information.

Takes too long for enlightenment
Easy is only a matter of perseption, once you realize it is only a peception you can do all things with ease. It is simply a task. Being spiritual does not require effort.

No comment. (m0rl0ck wanders off in search of a shovel...)

notme2000
11-21-02, 12:35 AM
MORLOCK:
Bullshit. Life is easier and your more productive when you untangle your own idiosyncratic fucked up-edness. Unless of course you consider jesus christ, the buddha et al to be under achievers
Maybe life is easier for you, but there are lots of things to lose by having this belief, as there is with any belief. To say there's nothing to lose is just plain arrogant. I for one would rather think we are all completely seperate. That what I've learnt I learnt on my own. That my creativity isn't simply someone else's being recycled... The fact that I'd rather believe we are all individuals as oposed to "the same person" is not simply because I like it that way more... I've grown very comfortable with what I percieve to be true, and instead of seeking to change reality for my comfort, I change myself to fit reality. The journey to spirituality is an internal one... To try to be spiritual by imposing your beliefs on reality (ie. the spirit/soul, auras, miracles, etc...) is a losing battle with no reward. If you want to believe we are all the same person, be my guest. You may even be right. But to say there's nothing to lose by following any belief is ridiculous.

If these beliefs were true, Jesus and Buddha would not be under achievers, they'd be the only true achievers. Everyone other than them is simply recycling their accomplishments by grasping them from the collective concsiousness. And I understand that to a theistic mind that just backs you up... But to an athiestic mind, where we are all equals, including Jesus and Buddha, that just doesn't check out at all... Jesus and Buddha were incredibly wise people. They figured out the secret to their life. We all have that potential, and not because they did it first, because we are all strong enough to do it ourselves. With or without their guidance. Now you can all follow Buddha or Christ, and I wish you the best... But the way I see it, true "enlightenment" can only come with understanding, and true understanding can only come from experience... Not a teacher or book. Empty, you know that my way of life often parallels Taoism, not because Buddha told me do so, cause I ended up here on my own.


Empty Dragon:
It is allways use full to have a teacher. But a Teacher is only a guide

I find teachers detrimental. Since we are all equals we shouldn't put too much faith in anyone... Well, no more than yourself anyway. Everyone is your teacher. If you're stong enough, you'll get through it all on your own...


All a guide can do is point you in a direction and tell you about the quick sands along the way
Exactly. I've walked plenty of wrong directions before, but now I truly know why they're the wrong direction. I've gotten caught in plenty of quicksand, but now I truly know how to get out. I believe in sharing knowledge, but I don't think preaching and following has any use other than saving time. And it's not worth it concidering the experience you lose out on. Like I said, it doesn't mean you can't take suggestions from people, or learn from someone else, but in the end do it for yourself...


Hey Kmguru If the Boy prepared in advance an got a hang glidder he would have flown
He woulda fallen with style, lol


Morlock:
...that we should ignore the examples weve been given, the things spiritual teachers tell us?
No, just question them


Empty Dragon:
Wisdom and understanding come with out effort.
I think you're mistaken with comfortable ignorance. All wise men put plenty of effort in to it... The people who don't put effort in to it (Shea) end up full of hot air.


Map for the terrain. Some times you just get it. Hence it came with out effort.
Someone went through alot of effort to make the map before you got it. And unless you search all the terrain for youself, you'll never know for sure if the map was accurate. So could you really say you're enlightened without searching the terrain on your own?


Morlock:
If it were easy we'd all be buddhas and christs.
Nicely put.


Empty Dragon: That is the natural state of me so It really doesn't require any effort to be me.
But did it take effort to realize this?


If your rationalize with out being you can get pretty depressed.
:D :D :D ;)


Being spiritual does not require effort
But BECOMING truly spirital does require effort, and this is the journey we're all referring to. Otherwise it wouldn't be a journey.

My only point is this... In the end we're each on this journey alone. No teachers are truly with you on your path, many are in fact holding you back... Even Jesus and Buddha will eventually hold you back because they ARE NOT YOU... Each journey is unique according the the individual. I have never followed a preacher of any sort. Always done what I felt was right. So far I've pretty much been wrong every time... But I think I'm actually starting to get somewhere through the process of elimination, lol. All the knowledge I've gained from walking the wrong paths has created a new path for me to walk, and so far it looks like it's the right one... And no one could have taught me this. Not Jesus, Buddha or YOU. So trust yourself, and don't give up as soon as you make one wrong turn...

P.S. Empty - I hear you ditched me to go to the pub with Jeff and Harmony. Ouch, man, very ouch.

m0rl0ck
11-21-02, 12:56 AM
So trust yourself, and don't give up as soon as you make one wrong turn...

Thats good advice. You should approach any spritual endeavor with a healthy scepticism. Its useful though to have some one who has walked a similar path before you, act as a guide just so you can avoid some of the common pitfalls.
What makes you think that youd be any less an individual if "we were all the same person" at some level? There are a lot of levels of awareness to a human being, at the top and bottom levels were all pretty much the same. We all seek shelter when cold, food when hungry etc. Because everyone else eats does that make you any less an original because you do too? We all spring from the same physical source, yet we all have different appeareances. Our conciousness is from the same source, yet we all have an individual identity. If you think your on to something spiritually, have at it :D
And best of luck getting there, I applaud your efforts :)


But to say there's nothing to lose by following any belief is ridiculous.

Its been my experience that you drop things along the way because you no longer need them. What are you afraid of losing?

notme2000
11-21-02, 01:09 AM
Because everyone else eats does that make you any less an original because you do too
Brilliant point, I take it back.

Its been my experience that you drop things along the way because you no longer need them. What are you afraid of losing?
I'm afraid of losing what I really need to find the truth as oposed to illusion. But in all fairness, I wasn't really behind those points, just kinda putting some information out there. Regurgitating the text books. Personally, I could probably be just as content no matter what the truth turned out to be. I just want the truth. That's all. But in the end, I have no reason to believe that's the case. But I could be wrong. Probably am. I have great respect for Buddhism and Taoism, for the lessons it teaches... But the actual claims it makes I don't believe. Like auras, chi, etc... But the way of life Buddhism teaches is where I seem to be ending up, with my own personality projected on to it.

Jerece Hunters
12-18-02, 12:59 AM
r u the same one like any others??:bugeye:

Jerece Hunters
12-18-02, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by m0rl0ck
Theres nothing to lose.



Bullshit. Life is easier and your more productive when you untangle your own idiosyncratic fucked up-edness. Unless of course you consider jesus christ, the buddha et al to be under achievers :)

but %0.01 is a big posssibility:)

Empty Dragon
12-19-02, 10:41 AM
There is the idea in eastern thought that all of this universe is one consiousness. A universal consioucness if you will. Is there any acctual evidence to support this?

spookz
12-19-02, 12:04 PM
evidence??
tangible evidence?
indirect evidence?
"cos i say so" evidence?

:D

this is conventional definition

Atma, or the soul, is in reality identical with Paramatma the Oversoul — which is one, infinite, and eternal. The soul is in fact beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds. But it experiences itself as being limited owing to its identification with the sharir (sthul sharir, or gross body); the pran (sukshma sharir, or subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (karan sharir, or mental body, which is the seat of the mind). The soul in its transcendental state is one — formless, eternal and infinite — and yet identifies itself with the phenomenal world of forms, which are many and finite and destructible. This is Maya, or cosmic Illusion

----------------------------------------------------------------------

how to get there

In the beginning, because the soul has not yet evolved full consciousness, it is unconscious of its identity with the Oversoul. Hence, though intrinsically inseparable from the Oversoul, the soul cannot realize its own identity with it or experience infinite peace, bliss, power and knowledge. Even after the evolution of full consciousness, it cannot realize the state of the Oversoul — although it is at all times in and with the Oversoul — because its consciousness is confined to the phenomenal world, owing to the sanskaras connected with the evolution of consciousness. Even on the path, the soul is not conscious of itself but is conscious only of the gross, subtle and mental worlds, which are its own illusory shadows.

At the end of the path, however, the soul frees itself from all sanskaras and desires connected with the gross, subtle and mental worlds. It then becomes possible for it to free itself from the illusion of being finite, which came into existence owing to its identification with the gross, subtle and mental bodies. At this state the soul completely transcends the phenomenal world and becomes Self- conscious and Self-realized. To attain this goal, the soul must retain its full consciousness and at the same time know itself to be different from the sharir (gross body); the pran (subtle body, which is the vehicle of desires and vital forces); and the manas (mental body, which is the seat of the mind) — and also know itself as being beyond the gross, subtle and mental worlds.

The soul has to emancipate itself gradually from the illusion of being finite by liberating itself from the bondage of sanskaras and knowing itself to be different from its bodies — gross, subtle and mental. It thus annihilates the false ego (that is, the illusion that "I am the gross body," "I am the subtle body," or "I am the mental body"). While the soul thus frees itself from its illusion, it still retains full consciousness, which now results in Self-knowledge and realization of the Truth. Escaping through the cosmic Illusion and realizing with full consciousness its identity with the infinite Oversoul is the goal of the long journey of the soul.


*be safe and have a nice trip


:D



what is a sanskara?

Sanskaras - the basis for our Thinking-Working Mind: The phenomenal-world that we experience, respond, and interact with, through our Actions, depends on thoughts that arise in our brain. The brain is the repository of All Sanskaras. We actually have no control over our response. Our responses are 'programmed' through our experiences. Any action arises from thought. Any thought is a response; a reaction of memory. Memory is stored in Brain as knowledge. Knowledge is the result of our experience.

We must understand how we are 'programmed' by our experiences. It is this cycle of experience, knowledge, memory, thought, action; from that action learn more through experience, and so the cycle repeats and we continue to be 'Programmed' in this life, genetically, biologically, physically, mentally and intellectually, by our 'limited experiences'. So, the cycle of forming the Sanskaras keep on repeating itself and these Sanskaras get accumulated with the Sanskaras that are part of our human consciousness. Sanskaras have been formed and transferred genetically through millennia upon millennia of our evolution.

Each person's life is simply unfolding of Sanskaras from moment to moment. I suffer, I am anxious, I am lonely, I am insecure, and I am confused, exactly like others. I laugh, I am happy; I am joyful, exactly like others. I have greed, I have envy, I have jealousy, and I have hatred, exactly like others. So, life is unfolding of our Sanskaras, and we create our own future life, as we go through this life. Events are occurring and happening outside, but the experiencing and the experiencer is within. Our pleasures, our sadness, our tragedies, our ecstasies, they are created because of the 'program' we carry in our own brain.

Thoughts are our Sanskaras. We are all caught in the cycle of Sanskaras.

:mad:

notme2000
12-19-02, 12:15 PM
I sometimes theorize another universe made of purely consciousness. Graph this universe and you could find points that represent each of us. "Us" is the places where the 2 universes intertwine. Matter cannot be found in the universe of consciousness, consciousness cannot be found in the universe of matter. Just an interesting theory. Who knows.

Empty Dragon
12-19-02, 12:21 PM
That sounds alot like "chi".

notme2000
12-26-02, 07:50 PM
Call it what you will, just a theory though.

IantheFREESPIRIT
03-16-03, 04:00 PM
Myself (Ian) and Ben experienced it a few weeks ago, while on MDMA, then again last night Ian Carlos Mike and Sean all experienced it on MDMA, Sean however wasnt on MDMA but understood everything so i suspect he had been to this level before. Tom has also been to the exact same level or higher thought/being.
It is the single greatest experience as to date of my 17 year life, of which only the past half a year to a year has been taking drugs.
If you reply to this post i can explain to you how to experience this for yourself, but in learning, you must also teach to others.
WHY ISNT THE WHOLE WORLD LIKE THIS IN FEELING? grr we can only wish.

notme2000
03-16-03, 11:53 PM
Ian,
Ah, MDMA. An amazing drug indeed. And I can tell from your post you took all the right things from your trips. I have learnt alot from MDMA. I am much more open and accepting of people, I no longer judge. I have learnt the true value of happiness (instead of glorifying depression). Eventually it got to the point where I outgrew the drug (I'm almost 20 now), but I kept all the valuable lessons I learnt. Good luck in future tripping!

P.S. You MUST download the song Infected Mushroom - Symphonatic, PLEASE!!!

wesmorris
03-17-03, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by kmguru
There is an "Aha" factor to it. Most philosophies have similar Aha factors. Absolute truth? Nay!!

Absolute truth is beyond our understanding. If you free your mind away from all sensory input from birth...what do you get? A vegetable?

So, we are vegetables too? Perhaps....but if you are one, what are you understanding?

Hmm... maybe this is obvious.. but this made me think about something I've been pondering. In the phsycial world, contradictions are generally disallowed, but in that which exists only mentally... or rather, that which is abstract paradox is the name of the game. Par for the course really. Don't you think?

I don't know if I ever see evidence that people are conscious of that. I mean, just two people having a conflicting opinion about something subjective that has no bearing on physical reality has an element of pardox to it. Two beings, each conscious of self, each convinced in their heart that the truth is something they know, each equally valid in that assertion. That's paradoxical for sure... well, at little bit at least.. eh?

What happens when these opinions are regarding issues of life and death? I think recognition of that fact can explain the bulk of humanity's problems regarding matter of opinion that might get you killed.

Pardon, indulged myself in a passing thought there. Pardon.

JOHANNsebastianBACH
03-17-03, 03:48 AM
it makes 10% more sense than christianity. christianity makes -10% sense.

river-wind
04-01-03, 12:35 PM
Christ makes alot of sense. Christianity makes very little.

Canute
04-20-03, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Empty Dragon
There is the idea in eastern thought that all of this universe is one consiousness. A universal consiousness if you will. Is there any acctual evidence to support this?

Firstly apologies for the length of this - but it's the most important subject there is (IMO) so...

There seems to be a lot of evidence, but it's all circumstantial (although much of it comes from science). Like some of you other contemplatives here I have some experience of this state - and you will know that once you experience it you just know that reality is a self-creation, that cosmic consciousness is a fact and that (at the deepest level) we are all one thing which is not physical. (Not being a proper Buddhist I don't like to call it Buddha nature - but I imagine it's the same thing).

The best evidence is that there seems to be no other logical explanation of why anything physical exists rather than just nothing.

Further evidence is that other than the complete illogicality (in metaphysical terms) of its beginning the world seems to be completely rational and logical to us. This strange coincidence is otherwise inexplicable.

Further evidence is our own consciousness, which is equally inexplicable (despite the hopeful and sophistic wrigglings of epiphenominalists etc).

It is also odd that the existence of cosmic consciousness (and ourselves as being part of it) has been the monotonously re-occuring conclusion of introspective philosphers for thousands of years. These were not all stupid or credulous people.

One of the problems about the idea is that it is in principle not scientifically falsfiable, thus it is therefore not a scientific proposition. However as the true and final explanation of existence must also be in principle unfalsifiable by science then the fact that it is unfalsifiable actually counts in its favour.

I like - "“This brings us to…the claim of materialistic science that matter is the only reality and that consciouness is its product. This thesis has often been presented with great authority as a scientific fact that has been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. However, when it is subjected to closer scrutiny it becomes obvious that it is not and never was a serious scientific statement, but a metaphysical assertion maquerading as one. It is an assertion that cannot be proved and thus lacks the basic requirements for a scientific hypothesis, namely testability.” P240 Staislav Grof – The Cosmic Game – 1998 State University of New York

Also - "“Plato described knowledge of the divine as being implicit in every soul, but forgotten. The soul, immortal, experiences direct and intimate contact with the eternal realities prior to birth, but the postnatal human condition of bodily imprisonment causes the soul to forget the true state of affairs. The goal of philosophy is to free the soul from this deluded condition in which it is deceived by the finite imitation and veiling of the eternal. The philosopher’s task is to ‘recollect’ the transcendent ideas, to recover a direct knowledge of the true causes and sources of all things.” Richard Tarnas “The Passion of the Western Mind” Pimlico, London 1996 p10

JOHANNsebastianBACH
04-22-03, 04:18 AM
I am most defiantly not the same as all of you so this must mean that we aren’t the same person. This topic is an incredible waste of space.

Canute
04-22-03, 05:34 AM
Originally posted by JOHANNsebastianBACH
I am most defiantly not the same as all of you so this must mean that we aren’t the same person. This topic is an incredible waste of space.
You'll certainly find it so if you think it is.

moonman
04-26-03, 12:14 PM
I am most defiantly not the same as all of you so this must mean that we aren’t the same person. This topic is an incredible waste of space.

On the contrary, the thread asks a quintessential question about true individuality of a human and the nature of the universe.

Canute
04-27-03, 06:28 AM
Couldn't agree more. The topic cannot be a waste of space unless all attempts to understand reality are a waste of space (which is a possibility).

zoso
07-30-10, 10:38 PM
basically my understanding of life is that were all one and the same being experiencing life from other points of view
much like a coral in a reef is all one and the same animal but can see and feel from each pollom as an individual being. its almost as if we are all one thing that is life, life is a coral reef, and we all are just plant heads each generating and experiencing life for ourself as individuals. possibly explaining why when you meet somebody you really like, not just by looks, you tend to be on the same wave lengh and can share things that perhaps you couldnt with another being. this isnt what i beleive but my understanding of the saying we are all the same person, if you need more understanding youtube ted talks Garrett Lisi :)

S.A.M.
08-07-10, 11:18 PM
Please forgive my if this in-correct. I was reading The Dao of Physics the other day, and i came across the section on Buddhism. We are acctualy the same person? Is it simply an idea to promote the the absense of ego and to free ones mind from the myraid world, or is it supposed to be a deeper representation of absolute truth?

Buddhism is an idealistic philosophy in which everyone wants to be rid of suffering. But suffering is what moulds us. To be rid of all suffering is to be rid of all imagination.

hypewaders
08-08-10, 01:50 AM
:poke:

Bowser
08-08-10, 02:02 AM
Please forgive my if this in-correct. I was reading The Dao of Physics the other day, and i came across the section on Buddhism. We are acctualy the same person? Is it simply an idea to promote the the absense of ego and to free ones mind from the myraid world, or is it supposed to be a deeper representation of absolute truth?

I think the one constant that we share is awareness (consciousness). It's intangible, pure, and the pinnacle of perception. It's the same for everyone, regardless of their condition. If there is a soul (universal or not), it is the lens through which we experience everything.

There's something to be said about the mind, too. Unfortunately, the perceptions of the mind are not a constant that we all share. So with the mind, we find individuality and diversity, even though there are countless similarities that we share in both thought and experience.

I would hazard a guess that the "same person" is the one who perceives through the looking glass like so many others.