British officials are circulating a story that Saddam Hussein may have been hoodwinked into believing that Iraq really did possess weapons of mass destruction.

The theory, which is doing the rounds in the upper reaches of Whitehall, is the result of an attempt to find what one official source called a "logical reason" why no chemical and biological weapons had been found in Iraq.

According to the theory, Saddam and his senior advisers and commanders were told by lower-ranking Iraqi officers that his forces were equipped with usable chemical and biological weapons.

The officers did not want to tell their superiors that the weapons were either destroyed or no longer usable.

The trouble for Britain was, the theory goes, that MI6's informants were the senior officials close to Saddam with the result that British intelligence was also hoodwinked.

The hypothesis, which is being spread privately by offi cials, is open to the interpretation that the government is searching for an excuse, however implausible, for failure to discover any WMD in Iraq.

"A delicious irony if true" is how it was described yesterday by Gary Samore of the International Institue for Strategic Studies.

He said he was familiar with the hypothesis being put about by British officials "trying to figure out why Saddam behaved in such an irrational fashion".

He said it was possible that Britain or the US had captured documents written by Iraqi officers, and sent to Saddam, making exaggerated claims about Iraq's WMD programme.

Dr Samore also said US and British intelligence had picked up "chatter" during the war interpreted as Iraqi forces preparing to use chemical weapons. That, he said, could be explained by Iraqis "playing games" - pretending the weapons existed to frighten the enemy knowing they would be overheard. Alternatively, it could indicate Saddam really did order the weapons to be used, said Dr Samore.

US officials reacted sceptically to the suggestion that Saddam was fooled by his own scientists.

"That sort of thing is verifiable after all. Saddam's people could have gone to check if they had the tube of anthrax or whatever weapon they claimed to have," said one intelligence source in Washington.

But David Albright, a former UN weapons inspector in regular contact with Iraqi scientists, said the system in which those scientists worked was guaranteed to produce misleading information.

"Scientists would hoodwink their own bosses with all sorts of exaggerations of their achievements," said Mr Albright, who heads the Washington-based Institute for Science and International Security.

Hans Blix, the former US weapons inspector in Iraq, said yesterday that most experts on Iraq now believed Saddam almost certainly destroyed his weapons of mass destruction after the first Gulf War in 1991.

"I think the vast majority of people are feeling there is very little likelihood that they [the Iraqis] had anything, and the biggest chance is that they destroyed them in 1991," he told the BBC Radio 4 Today programme.

Dr Blix has always argued that weapons may be unaccounted for, but that did not mean they existed.

British Military Source.

I heard of this before...I can actually see this being real. Saddam got dooped.

We can not entirely rule out this option, often in totalitarian regimes bringers of bad news will find their heads on silver plates..

Sorry, I think this is scumbag Blair, trying to find an escape route.

Tiny, the source was the MOD not the government. Same difference I know but it does make sense considering Saddam's regin of terror over his minions.

Red Devil, do you have a link to this story?

The story appears to have originated in The Guardian, dated for December 25, 2003.

This link comes from The Age (http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/12/24/1072239719614.html).

Originally posted by Pakman
Red Devil, do you have a link to this story?


My source was a newsletter that comes to my pc from "Mod Oracle" and is a military newsfeed.

He said he was familiar with the hypothesis being put about by British officials "trying to figure out why Saddam behaved in such an irrational fashion".
Err..

Irrational?
Well he said he didn't have them and he was right.
How irrational is that?

I read about this thing in the Guardian and it reeks of low quality spin.
So Saddam just took some blokes word for it that Iraq had a WMD programme?
Maybe the US nuke deterrent lives only in the imagination of those airforce dudes hiding under Chyanne mountain. "Hey GW Sure we got Nukes! No need to check, just leave it all up to us!"

If this is remotely true then it's a tacit admission that coalition 'intelligence' is nothing more than bullshit.

No change there then.
Dee Cee

If this is remotely true then it's a tacit admission that coalition 'intelligence' is nothing more than bullshit.

I think it shows that since the end of the "cold war " western intelligence has suffered from the the same financial cutbacks that have affected the armed forces

I sincerely hope that we do find something, there are going to be an awful lot of cynics out there who get egg on their faces ;)

Let us not forget, another reminder, he has already used them!!!

Let us not forget, another reminder, he has already used them!!!
So he did.
Who sold him those BTW?
Dee Cee

Irrelevant deecee my friend. The arguement or point was that he "has used them". I have been up all night, bye for now, time to hit the sack big style ;)

Originally posted by DeeCee
So he did.
Who sold him those BTW?
Dee Cee

Yes but DeeCee, they were using them against states that were enemies of the US at that time. You know the old hypocritical doctrine of it's always good to help your enemy's enemy:rolleyes:. The US and the rest of the West were quite happy to turn a blind eye to the atrocities committed during that time, with weapons sold to Saddam by the West. Saddam would have known that if he did not have the weapons, that would be the best ammunition against the 'coalition', as the rest of the world would point an accusing finger against the US, UK and the rest of the allied forces. That finger was pointed and relationships between the US and its allies soured. Each of the coalition countries face increasing opposition from their populace due to this war. A little part of me is thinking that Saddam is probably smiling at the thought of his hopefully upcoming trial, while the US and the West will be cringing at what will be revealed by the defence. There is a very good chance that it will all come back and take an even bigger bite on George and Co's arse. It (the taking of Iraq and his subsequent capture) has all gone too easily somehow and it could very possibly be that it is Saddam who is conning the world. Who really knows what goes on in the mind of the insane. After all, we're still shocked at what appears to go on in the minds of Bush and Co. Saddam's mind is probably just as frightening.

Originally posted by Red Devil
I sincerely hope that we do find something, there are going to be an awful lot of cynics out there who get egg on their faces
Somehow I doubt that will occur. The US and the UK have admitted that there are no weapons as they've found no trace of the WMD's. I think the only people wiping the egg of their faces are Bush, Blair, Rumsfield, Howard and Co. So because there is no trace of the WMD's, the coalition states have jumped on another bandwagon and stated that they liberated Iraq from a tyrant. After all, they had to find at least one excuse for this damned war. The real truth and reason for this war would not go down too well. Now I just keep asking myself who will free us from the tyrants who lead us into such situations.



:eek:

Removal of Saddam was always the Number 1 priority, this was stated from the start, not an excuse made later on for the benefit of the World Record Book of Excuses.

Originally posted by Red Devil
Removal of Saddam was always the Number 1 priority, this was stated from the start, not an excuse made later on for the benefit of the World Record Book of Excuses.
Yes, while the number one priority before the war started was to rid Saddam of WMD's and to remove him from power. But after no WMD's were found, the main reason for the war became to free the Iraqi's from his despotic rule, it almost became a humanitarian war. The hypocrisy of it all is what gets me. Why didn't they invade Iraq long before to stop his atrocities? The Iraqi's wont be conned into forgetting who supplied Saddam with the weapons he used on them. At least I hope they wont. The West, like Saddam, all have a lot to answer for.

If Saddam thought he had an advanced WMD program, how should we have known differently?

Originally posted by Bells
Why didn't they invade Iraq long before to stop his atrocities?

Agreed 100%. It was those self same politicians who ordered the lads to stop in Desert Storm. Ordered to stop moving on Baghdad when it was all there for the "taking" so to speak.

The Iraqi's wont be conned into forgetting who supplied Saddam with the weapons he used on them. At least I hope they wont. The West, like Saddam, all have a lot to answer for.

I am more than happy to be corrected if i am wrong BUT, ( with the obvious exception of the French who will sell weapons to satan if he pays in cash) are not virtually all of iraq's weapons of soviet or "eastern european" origin. They have no US or British Tanks, guns or aircraft that I am aware of. Can anyone give an example of any western weapon system being sold "as the finished article" to Saddam?.

Don't even go down the chemical wapons route, as you know very well that certain "compoments " while harmless alone can be turned into weapons when mixed with other compoments. remember the "supergun" manufactured entirely in the UK but from various sources non of whome realised what their "bit" was part of.

Hello aghart:)

Interesting you should ask that actually. I think you should find this a tad interesting (http://www.alternet.org/print.html?StoryID=14160). I know I certainly did.

In 1982, Reagan "legalized" direct military assistance to Iraq. This resulted in more than a billion dollars in military related exports. According to Kenneth R. Timmerman (author of The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq) the US government under Reagan and Bush sold Iraq 60 Hughes MD 500 "Defender" helicopters, eight Bell Textron AB 212 military helicopters equipped for anti-submarine warfare, 48 Bell Textron 214 ST utility helicopters (sold for "recreational" purposes), and US military infra-red sensors and thermal imaging scanners (sold illegally to Iraq through a Dutch company). After the Gulf War, the International Atomic Energy Agency found the following US equipment in Iraq: spectrometers, oscilloscopes, neutron initiators, high-speed switches for nuclear detonation, and other tools used to develop and manufacture nuclear weapons.

"One entire facility, a tungsten-carbide manufacturing plant that was part of the Al Atheer complex," Timmerman told the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs, "was blown up by the IAEA in April 1992 because it lay at the heart of the Iraqi clandestine nuclear weapons program, PC-3. Equipment for this plant appears to have been supplied by the Latrobe, Pennsylvania manufacturer, Kennametal, and by a large number of other American companies, with financing provided by the Atlanta branch of the BNL bank."

Actually, I found this part of the article to be even more interesting...
The US Department of Commerce licensed 70 biological exports to Iraq between 1985 and 1989, including at least 21 batches of lethal strains of anthrax. The French newspaper Le Figaro, in an article published in 1998, said researchers at the Rockville, Maryland lab of the American Type Culture Collection confirmed sending anthrax samples via mail order to Iraq. After the Gulf War, Iraq made several declarations to UN weapons inspectors about how they had weaponized the anthrax sent to them by the American corporation. In 1985, the US Centers of Disease Control sent samples of an Israeli strain of West Nile virus to a microbiologist at the Basra University in Iraq. In addition, Iraq received other "various toxins and bacteria," including botulins and E. coli.

Corporations that have sold dual-use chemicals and biological samples to Iraq for its weapons program include: Phillips Petroleum, Unilever, Alcolac, Allied Signal, the American Type Culture Collection, and Teledyne. Teledyne pled guilty to charges of criminal conspiracy, false statements, and violations of the Export Administration Act and the Arms Export Control Act for indirectly exporting 130 tons of zirconium to Iraq through Chilean arms manufacturer Carlos Cardoen. The zirconium was intended for use in cluster bombs. In defense, Teledyne argued during the trial that the CIA had authorized the shipments. The Baltimore company Alcolac was convicted of illegally selling thiodiglycol -- a chemical precursor used in the production of mustard gas -- for use in Iraq's chemical warfare program.


These links may also prove to be interesting and I might add, disgustingly hypocritical and vile:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0208/S00158.htm

http://www.tallahassee.com/mld/tallahassee/news/politics/4186725.htm

http://www.counterpunch.org/boles1010.html


And finally, we have a chronology of the US involvement in the arming of Saddam:

http://www.rehberg.net/arming-iraq.html

All of the West is guilty for arming Saddam. It is just unfortunate that they have forgotten that fact in recent times. The pathetic hypocrisy never ceases to astound me.


:eek:

Bells: I think the excuse nowadays is that "it wasn't us" meaning the current governments. Rubbish, most of these politicians were in, even then. I don't back up our governments, but at least someone tried to correct the pasts mistakes.

Well fancy that, I stand corrected

Originally posted by Red Devil
Bells: I think the excuse nowadays is that "it wasn't us" meaning the current governments. Rubbish, most of these politicians were in, even then. I don't back up our governments, but at least someone tried to correct the pasts mistakes.
Yeah, it's one thing to correct past mistakes and it's right that they do so, but it's another thing altogether to deny it ever happened at all. All Governments use the excuse of "it wasn't us", but it's a ridiculous excuse as all know it did happen and there's proof that it happened:confused:. And in this case, the Bush Government's stance of "it wasn't us" is even more pathetic as it was Rumsfeld and Bush's father who did the bad deeds. It's getting to the point now where it's not even acknowledged that the US and the rest of the West sold arms to Saddam.


:eek:

Dont forget the greatest perpetrators - France and Germany.

Heh... course I haven't, and I haven't forgotten the UK either. All are to blame for arming Saddam.


:eek:

Quote from a grateful Iraqi:


"I left Iraq 22 years ago because of Saddam," Mohammad Ali, a chemistry teacher going for a cruise with his Iranian wife and family, said. "I'm so happy to be back."

"The British did us a favour," he said. "They got rid of the biggest dictator in the Middle East. Basra used to be beautiful. It was full of restaurants and casinos."

Quote from a grateful Iraqi:
Hey Devil mind if I post some quotes from several thousand ungrateful ones?:p

Dee Cee

Deecee: Suppose your quotes come from the Iraqi Information Ministry?

The only ones ungrateful are those who prospered under Saddam.

An interesting link I found. "Full List of US Weapons Suppliers to Iraq (http://www.rense.com/general32/suppe.htm)," translated from German by Anu de Monteriece; originally published in Die Tageszeitung, December 18, 2002.

Thanks for that Tiassa, I cannot see how No 9 in the UK section can be "UK" though. I do wonder just how many of these are actually "registered" in that particular country but not actually dealing these wepaons from the country concerned??? Just a thought.

Supplier: Ali Ashour Daghir (http://www.iraqwatch.org/search/view_record.asp?sc=suppliers&id=393) (IraqWatch)

I guess their criterion is dual UK/Iraq citizenship in this case. Daghir directed Euromac, Ltd., and Atlas Equipment UK, Ltd. IraqWatch notes that both companies were indicted in 1990. Daghir was indicted in 1990, as well, on charges that he attempted to export nuclear device triggers to Iraq. (There's not much more than that at the link.)

Another interesting listing: Iraq Profile: Nuclear Imports (http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles/Iraq/Nuclear/2124.html)."

I found this following up on Euromac and Atlas.

The only ones ungrateful are those who prospered under Saddam.
Like that kid who lost both his arms?

Don't worry he's 'armless:D
Dee Cee

Its easy to find individual mishaps anywhere. I feel for the kid, really do. But the kids resiliance is amazing. We may have rid the world of Saddam and his terror troops but the Allies must take the responsibility for the aftermath too. Lets hope we do right by the people of Iraq.

"Lets hope we do right by the people of Iraq."

We (Americans) have a critical imperative to do much more than hope.

Let's get real: Let's demand answers as to why an exquisitely executed invasion has been followed by an inept, politically ignorant and underfunded occupation. Our intervention has precipitated the death of a nation and not gratitude.

Let's get out: Before the Iraqi civil war is fully underway, we must de-Americanize attempts to stabilize the corpse of Iraq with great haste. As a result of the deep mistrust the US has engendered, no American-branded solution will hold up.

Let's move on: The original problems predating this US intervention are in ever more critical need of attention. American unwillingness to positively influence the behavior of their pre-existant client states, i.e. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Gulf states, Pakistan, is fueling revolutionary sentiment that Islamic fundamentalists are successfully harnessing. If the US cannot reform states that already bear our standard, there is no hope for preventing a cascade of failing states in the Mideast.

Lets hope we do right by the people of Iraq.
No need to hope we've already started!

Look, $8000 compensation paid by the MOD to the family of some Iraqi dude who was careless enough to get kicked to death by UK troops. Nice to see how much we care:)

Full story here (http://www.reuters.com/locales/newsArticle.jsp?type=worldNews&locale=en_IN&storyID=4068893)
Dee Cee

Originally posted by Red Devil
Lets hope we do right by the people of Iraq.
They can barely manage to do right for the American people, so how could they possibly do the right thing by the people of Iraq? I mean look at what's going on there now, the Iraqi people are losing their oil. That's just doing right by Bush and Blair I guess. After all isn't that what's supposed to matter most? To them?

Originally posted by Dee Cee
Look, $8000 compensation paid by the MOD to the family of some Iraqi dude who was careless enough to get kicked to death by UK troops. Nice to see how much we care
Care schmare. $8000 is probably the price of the suit on Bush's or Blair's back. What an insult. $8000 for kicking someone to death. So what do you get if you're shot to death by accident? $2000? If you get shot at with a grenade by the allied forces, you could possibly come out with $10,000:rolleyes:... pathetic really and extremelly embarrassing in the eyes of the world.



:eek: