Imagine that the war in Europe had gone differently. Germany had successfully invaded Britain and gone on to victory in the Soviet Union. What effects would this have had on the Asian conflict. Specifically what effects would China have suffered. I think the fate of China was closely tied to both the Japanese and American/British fates. What possible outcomes can you see happening to China and the Japanese if Germany controlled the whole of Europe/Soviet Union.
I would be grateful for responses to this as I teach History at a university in China (despite stopping the study of it at school aged 16!). And I would like to help my students understand the global nature of WWII.

hitlers agenda was to increase the numbers of his so called "master race"

a good place to start with such a topic would be to read "mein kampf" by adolf
hitler

edit
the entire book may be found here:
http://www.crusader.net/texts/mk/

China certainly would have been next, expecially if Nazi Germany had control over the Soviet Union, although that kind of an outcome is a ridiculous notion. The Soviets would have thrown every able Russian body at the Nazi's before they would be conquered.

The Soviets would have thrown every able Russian body at the Nazi's before they would be conquered.
thats true, and they did

although that kind of an outcome is a ridiculous notion

So you think there never was a chance the SOviet Union would be defeated? Many of the things I have read suggest that with better tactics and a few lucky breaks the outcome on the Eastern Front would have gone Germany's way.
Even if there was never a chance of conquering the Soviet Union I guess an uneasy stalemate could have occured. If this was the case, with Britain conquered, could you venture a opinion on what the effects on Asia might have been.
I know this is fairly hypothetical but I really want to get across to my students the global nature of WWII!

better tactics?
germany, at the time, was considered a world class military thought by many to be unbeatable

britain was another matter
if it wasn't for the americans help she surely would have fell

Countries change as they get bigger. They also behave differently during peacetime and war. Something like this is hard to speculate on. I've been told that the reason Germany was so obsessive about killing off the Jews during WWII is that they realized that during the peace that would prevail when the war was over, even they would not be able to get away with it any longer.

I wonder how the Nazis would have treated the Indians. After all, they are by definition the original "Aryans."

Even if Briton and the USSR had fallen to the Nazis Japan would have still attacked US interests in Manilla and at Pearl Harbor. With England out of the war Australian and Canadian forces would still have joined with the US to stop the Japanese.

And, with full German assistance, Dai-Nihon Teikoku would've steamrolled and steakgrilled Australia and Canada, and possibly the US, with heavy reinforcements from colonial reserves.
IF they did win a total victory, eventually, Japan and Germany would've gone to war, and Japan would win. No matter the cost, Japan would kill Nazi Germany in a war, considering their mentality.

regarding all of this
hitler made 4 big mistakes

first is that he found himself in a 2 front war, namely with russia in the east and britain in the west

second, he underestimated the power of the naval arm of his military machine and therefor never developed it

third is he didn't realize the advantages of radar, one of the reasons that britain was able to hold him off

and fourth he underestimated americas ability to produce, the second reason britain didn't fall and ultimatly led to the nazis defeat

I doubt that even with full Nazi partipation Australia would have been steamrolled.
Japan never really had total control of China even though the USSR did not enter the war with Japan until August of 45. US support for China had to come in over "the hump".

regarding all of this
hitler made 4 big mistakes

first is that he found himself in a 2 front war, namely with russia in the east and britain in the west

second, he underestimated the power of the naval arm of his military machine and therefor never developed it

third is he didn't realize the advantages of radar, one of the reasons that britain was able to hold him off

and fourth he underestimated americas ability to produce, the second reason britain didn't fall and ultimatly led to the nazis defeat
Five actually. He didn't seize upon jet technology for mass-use until late in the war, '44 and '45. If they had perfected the Me-262 earlier, say '42 or '43, the war probably would have been thiers.

Five actually. He didn't seize upon jet technology for mass-use until late in the war, '44 and '45. If they had perfected the Me-262 earlier, say '42 or '43, the war probably would have been thiers.
oh hit !
good call hapsburg

Hitler made a huge mistake during the Battle of Britain when he switched from targeting the RAF to bombing civilian centers. While it was hard on British civilians, the RAF got a badly needed break and were able to regroup. Hitler never really had a chance of invasion after that.

If Hitler had stayed after the RAF, an invasion of England would still have been difficult. Hitler was short on naval power, and the Royal Navy would have sacrificed itself going after the German transports. The Germans might have succeeded, but the cost would have been enormous.

Hitler NEVER came close to defeating Russia. His first two summer campaigns were rather successful, but there was still a LOT of Russia he didn't touch. And the first two Russian winter campaign really did a number on the Germans. After '42, the Germans did very little except retreat.

Oh...and Germany trying to fight in the Far East...They would have had one BIG problem...supply. At that time, the only way to get supplies there would have been the Trans Siberia Railroad...essentially several tousands of miles of one line, very easily disrupted by partisans.

As for Hitler's biggest mistake of the war, my vote is that he failed to fully mobilize the German economy for war until late '43.

If Hitler had stayed after the RAF, an invasion of England would still have been difficult. Hitler was short on naval power, and the Royal Navy would have sacrificed itself going after the German transports. The Germans might have succeeded, but the cost would have been enormous.

i doubt it
hitler bombed the airfields, and they were hit
but the spitefires were safe
britain took the precaution of hiding it's spitefires in the countryside
also she moved her machine shops underground

i doubt if the royal navy would have sacrificed itself
britain knew full well the folly of grouping it's ships in the channel
besides, most of the british fleet was strung out all over the globe protecting britains vital supply lines

i don't know if hitler failed to mobilize the economy or if he was hoping that the conqured countries would produce for him

i doubt it
hitler bombed the airfields, and they were hit
but the spitefires were safe
britain took the precaution of hiding it's spitefires in the countryside
also she moved her machine shops underground

i doubt if the royal navy would have sacrificed itself
britain knew full well the folly of grouping it's ships in the channel
besides, most of the british fleet was strung out all over the globe protecting britains vital supply lines

i don't know if hitler failed to mobilize the economy or if he was hoping that the conqured countries would produce for him

I am not sure what you are doubting...

At the time Hitler switched the Luftwaffe's priorities, the RAF was in bad shape, even with everything they were doing to minimize the damage. But even had the RAF been nullified, the Germans would have faced an uphill struggle to invade and conquer England.

Agreed that the Royal Navy knew the dangers of operating in the Channel. However, facing a full scale German invasion, you can bet your sweet boopie they would have done everything possible, up to suicide runs, to stop the German invasion.

As to Hitler and the economy, it was mostly Hitler's overconfidence that the war would be over soon. He didn't put Germany on a full war footing until after things started going very badly in Russia. By that time, it was too late. Faced with the full production of Russia and England, and most of the production of America, he was doomed.

I am not sure what you are doubting...

At the time Hitler switched the Luftwaffe's priorities, the RAF was in bad shape,
are you sure about this?
hitler switched tactics because the raf was still in the air
hitler hit the fields but he could not knock the raf out of the air

there were a number of things at work here
first was radar
the british were alerted to an airstrike as soon as the luftwaffe left the normandy coast
second was the agility of the spitefire itself
third was the men that were lost to germany were gone for good
not so with britain, 50% or more of her pilots that were shot down returned to active duty

the only reason hitler resorted to night raids was to avoid those deadly spitefires

the raf was going up against odds 7, 9, 10 to 1 and still they kept flying
i believe the best the raf did was to lose 60 pilots to the germans 500
those were enormous losses for the germans and the major reason hitler switched to night raids

are you sure about this?
hitler switched tactics because the raf was still in the air
hitler hit the fields but he could not knock the raf out of the air




The reason that Hitler switched tactics was not due to the Spitfire. A German bomber accidentally let it bombs drop on London. In retaliation, the British bombed Berlin at night. This act caused Hitler to change to civilian target in England, to retaliate for the retaliation.

While the Spitfire was slightly more maneuverable than the Bf 109, the 109 could out climb and out dive it. All-in-all, it was a close match.

And if you look at the number of kills, it was actually the Hurricane that shot down the most planes for Britain during the battle. Spitfires were available in much fewer numbers than the older Hurricane.

You are right about the pilot situation, except that Germany had many more trained pilots at the start of the Battle of Britain.

The reason that Hitler switched tactics was not due to the Spitfire. A German bomber accidentally let it bombs drop on London. In retaliation, the British bombed Berlin at night. This act caused Hitler to change to civilian target in England, to retaliate for the retaliation.

i am not sure this is entirely accurate i'll have to check on it

but you are correct that hitler retaliated for britains night raid
and he planned it for the lowest ebb tide of the thames

i am not sure this is entirely accurate i'll have to check on it

but you are correct that hitler retaliated for britains night raid
and he planned it for the lowest ebb tide of the thames

Check out the movie "The Battle of Britain". It is pretty accurate historically, and has some great air combat scenes...for pre-CGA that is.

Check out the movie "The Battle of Britain".
i have it on dvd. it's been awhile since i watched it

And, with full German assistance, Dai-Nihon Teikoku would've steamrolled and steakgrilled Australia and Canada, and possibly the US, with heavy reinforcements from colonial reserves.
IF they did win a total victory, eventually, Japan and Germany would've gone to war, and Japan would win. No matter the cost, Japan would kill Nazi Germany in a war, considering their mentality.


I think you are dreaming. The US crushed Japan, using only about 30% of it war production to do it.

Suppose, somehow, a miracle occurred and Germany won in Europe. The US could have screened the East Coast. Germany didn't really have a way to strike at us across the Atlantic. Now put all that massive war production into the Pacific.

And you still have one big headache for the Germans...supplying any troops in the Pacific. Japanese industry couldn't have done it. They could not really keep up with their own needs, let alone supply Germans. And the only available German supply line would have been through Siberia...a single railroad line, highly susceptible to partisans.

And another smaller, but still substantial headache for the Germans. Garrisoning all that territory in Europe. That would have taken a huge chunk of the Wermacht.

the major problem, well two actually, was
first she was an island nation
second she was small

i think hapsburg has a point
it's been estimated if japan could have kept up her kamikaze attacks on the battle of okinawa for another month the outcome would be a lot different

you stated 30% went to the japanese effort
look at the size of japan and ask yourself why it took 30%
the answer is simple
the japanese did not surrender

think about it
if japan was 3 times bigger we would have had a serious problem on our hands

the japanese fighting mentality was one of the reasons america used the bomb, because we knew an invasion would have been a bloodbath

True about the bomb. Truman decided to use it when he was given extimates of 100,000 American dead to invade Japan.

However, consider some statistics from the war, just in naval production...

Heavy carriers...The Japanese only commissioned 1 CV after the war started. 4 others were destroyed or damaged and were never completed. American built 26.

Battleships...The Japanese commissioned 2 BB's, which had most of their work finished before the war started. We built 10.

Heavy cruisers...The Japanese built 1 CA. We built 14.

This is just the three largest classes. Lesser classes and aircraft were also heavily in our favor. And the Japanese were way behind us in building support ships.

And this was just with the fraction of our production allocated to the Pacific.

By the end of '43, the Japanese had exhausted themselves. After that, it wasn't even close to a fair fight.

And recall that with the 70% going to Europe, we overwelmed the Luftwaffe.

better tactics?
germany, at the time, was considered a world class military thought by many to be unbeatable

britain was another matter
if it wasn't for the americans help she surely would have fell


The Battle of Britain was over before the US joined the war. The US had nothing to do with helping to save Britain. It was the British that saved the British along with the Commonwealth.

[QUOTE=Poincare's Stepchild]True about the bomb. Truman decided to use it when he was given extimates of 100,000 American dead to invade Japan.

The highest estimate discovered in the planning reports assuming both the 1945 landing in november at Kyushu and the fullscale 1946 invasion to have taken place was in the range of 40,000 to 46,000 deaths.

The highest estimate discovered in the planning reports assuming both the 1945 landing in november at Kyushu and the fullscale 1946 invasion to have taken place was in the range of 40,000 to 46,000 deaths.
where did you get these estimates?

Admiral William Leahy estimated that there would be more than 250,000 Americans killed or wounded on Kyushu alone.
General Charles Willoughby, chief of intelligence for General Douglas MacArthur, the Supreme Commander of the Southwest Pacific, estimated American casualties would be one million men by the fall of 1946.
Willoughby's own intelligence staff considered this to be a conservative estimate.

Had Olympic come about, the Japanese civilian population, inflamed by a national slogan - "One Hundred Million Will Die for the Emperor and Nation" - were prepared to fight to the death. Twenty Eight Million Japanese had become a part of the National Volunteer Combat Force. They were armed with ancient rifles, lunge mines, satchel charges, Molotov cocktails and one-shot black powder mortars. Others were armed with swords, long bows, axes and bamboo spears. The civilian units were to be used in nighttime attacks, hit and run maneuvers, delaying actions and massive suicide charges at the weaker American positions.
At the early stage of the invasion, 1,000 Japanese and American soldiers would be dying every hour.

The invasion of Japan never became a reality because on August 6, 1945, an atomic bomb was exploded over Hiroshima. Three days later, a second bomb was dropped on Nagasaki. Within days the war with Japan was at a close.

Had these bombs not been dropped and had the invasion been launched as scheduled, combat casualties in Japan would have been at a minimum of the tens of thousands.
http://www.waszak.com/japanww2.htm