THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ: PREMIER'S PLAN FOR BAGHDAD; HADITHA SLAYINGS CASE
Witness accounts of attack on civilians revealed
From Times Wire Services
January 7, 2007


WASHINGTON — A Marine squad just hit by a roadside bomb in Iraq ordered five unarmed Iraqi civilians out of a taxi, and the squad leader shot them, witnesses say in a report obtained by the Washington Post.

The report by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, which reveals previously undisclosed details about the Haditha incident, says a taxi happened upon the scene shortly after the explosion. Witnesses told investigators that the Marines' squad leader, Staff Sgt. Frank D. Wuterich, ordered the passengers out of the car.

Naval investigators said that Wuterich shot the Iraqis one by one as they stood next to the vehicle, about 10 feet from him, the Post reported Saturday.

Another Marine allegedly fired shots into the victims' bodies as they lay on the ground.

"They didn't even try to run away," said one witness, a young Iraqi soldier working with the Marine squad. "We were afraid from Marines and we saw them behaving like crazy. They were yelling and screaming."

Four Marines have been charged in the Nov. 19, 2005, deaths of 24 civilians, including women and children, that occurred immediately after a roadside bomb killed one Marine and injured two. In addition, four officers, who were not there during the killings but were accused of failures in investigating and reporting the deaths, have been charged.

Marines took dozens of gruesome photographs of the civilians who were killed, the newspaper reported today in a subsequent article.

Much like the photographs that emerged in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse cases, the images — which investigators tracked down on several laptop computers and digital media drives, some in the United States — provide visual evidence of what happened. But unlike the detainee photographs, which were turned over to officials, who then investigated the case, the Haditha images were discovered months after the shootings as more than 60 Naval Criminal Investigative Service agents scoured the globe for them.

The killings have led to the biggest U.S. criminal case involving civilian deaths in Iraq.

After the taxi passengers were shot, the report says, the Marines raided nearby houses, firing indiscriminately in a bloody, door-to-door sweep, killing 14 unarmed inhabitants in 10 minutes.

The four Marines charged with murder in the killings are: Wuterich; Sgt. Sanick P. Dela Cruz; Lance Cpl. Justin L. Sharratt; and Lance Cpl. Stephen B. Tatum. They face a maximum penalty of life in prison if convicted.


http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-haditha7jan07,0,2616066.story?coll=la-home-headlines

todays headlines, "innocent law respectfull Iraqis get killed by evil blood sucking US Marines"....

only when the situation is reviewed do we notice that these innocent Iraqis...were not so innocent.
the law abiding Iraqis...did not abide to law at all.
and the evil Marines...werent so evil after all aftering being charged with Ak47's I presume by these once again innocent little children.

I am sure this event didnt just spark from Marines going on a rampage, the women and children (behind which we all love to cover up) were just as much involved in the killings as anyone else.

Oh...heres a question...taking a child and using him as a sheild while shooting at the Marine...what does the Marine left to do than? get shot?

Those poor Marines.

You (poor sod) realise by justification you are as destroyed as those marines.

Those poor Marines.

exactly. Added to the fact that Bush dragged them to pointless war, facing deception and hate everyday, as well as random bullets overhead ready to bring death, they now got to face the court. And the generals who instruct them to kill...and go on those missions...the generals are innocent :mad: .

only when the situation is reviewed do we notice that these innocent Iraqis...were not so innocent.

I haven't heard anything like that about this case. All evidence that I've heard about indicates that the marines in question are basically guilty of murder.

Sure, we can perhaps understand that they're in a dangerous situation, they become somewhat desensitized to violence and to killing, they find themselves demonizing the enemy, and find it difficult to determine exactly who is the enemy.
All of this adds up to mitigating factors.

Yet, the guilt of how they acted in this situation (unless new evidence should be presented which shows otherwise) is apparent.

The marines who committed the act should be executed.

The officers who covered it up (basically) should be punished severely, I don't know how. Demotion, perhaps.

exactly. Added to the fact that Bush dragged them to pointless war, facing deception and hate everyday, as well as random bullets overhead ready to bring death, they now got to face the court. And the generals who instruct them to kill...and go on those missions...the generals are innocent :mad: .

I was being sarcastic. I have no sympathy/respect for gun toting vigilantes and trigger happy soldiers without honour.

exactly. Added to the fact that Bush dragged them to pointless war, facing deception and hate everyday, as well as random bullets overhead ready to bring death, they now got to face the court. And the generals who instruct them to kill...and go on those missions...the generals are innocent :mad: .


oh those poor innocent marines killed bunch of children thinking they were deers and rabbits... oh dear how horrible those iraqis can be by staying their home and hiding from bullets and then marines show up to their homes and drag them out thinking they are aliens from mars and killed them by mistake.... how horrible the justice system has become ? they should have punish the rest of the civilian for not pointing out that those are not animals/rabbits/deer/goats...but actuall humans... ahh how sad.

I haven't heard anything like that about this case. All evidence that I've heard about indicates that the marines in question are basically guilty of murder.

Sure, we can perhaps understand that they're in a dangerous situation, they become somewhat desensitized to violence and to killing, they find themselves demonizing the enemy, and find it difficult to determine exactly who is the enemy.
All of this adds up to mitigating factors.

Yet, the guilt of how they acted in this situation (unless new evidence should be presented which shows otherwise) is apparent.

The marines who committed the act should be executed.

The officers who covered it up (basically) should be punished severely, I don't know how. Demotion, perhaps.

A cover up for murder?

Dishonourable discharge. That should take care of his pension and discourage any others with similar tendencies. And the soldiers should be handed over to the Iraqis for trial. That would surely cool down any future hotheads.

I was being sarcastic. I have no sympathy/respect for gun toting vigilantes and trigger happy soldiers without honour.

they are not trigger happy soldiers. It is the situation which has been turned over by the media to look like innocent people have been killed, when in fact they tried to kill and/or facilitate the killing of Marines.

they are not trigger happy soldiers. It is the situation which has been turned over by the media to look like innocent people have been killed, when in fact they tried to kill and/or facilitate the killing of Marines.

In any case, all this says is that the US has been there too long already.

oh those poor innocent marines killed bunch of children thinking they were deers and rabbits... oh dear how horrible those iraqis can be by staying their home and hiding from bullets and then marines show up to their homes and drag them out thinking they are aliens from mars and killed them by mistake.... how horrible the justice system has become ? they should have punish the rest of the civilian for not pointing out that those are not animals/rabbits/deer/goats...but actuall humans... ahh how sad.

those innocent as you say Iraqis...are not innocent. Those who do stay in their homes and dont hide ammunition or terrorists/rebells are safe. Those who use themselves as body shields to protect the next Osama Bin Laden behind them, these are the people Marines kill. It is war.

those innocent as you say Iraqis...are not innocent. Those who do stay in their homes and dont hide ammunition or terrorists/rebells are safe. Those who use themselves as body shields to protect the next Osama Bin Laden behind them, these are the people Marines kill. It is war.

so you don't believe in justice system of USA? not very patriotic i say. You are disregarding the military courts?

so you don't believe in justice system of USA? not very patriotic i say. You are disregarding the military courts?

It is not me who is disregarding the military courts, but the courts who disregard the soldiers. The courts that cant seem to remember who are the friends and the enemies.

And the soldiers should be handed over to the Iraqis for trial.

I disagree.
I dislike having this view that I am about to state, but it is becoming more and more apparently true over time.

The Iraqis have shown themselves to be... how to put this... barbaric? That doesn't quite carry the proper connotations... Hmm.
I'll explain by example.
The thread where the ceremony for Najaf was discussed. Biting the heads off of live frogs. Eating the liver of a living rabbit.
The execution of Saddam. The taunting. The dancing around the corpse.
I would never agree to hand American citizens over to them for 'justice'. I don't believe they're capable of it.
Yes. Cultural relativism and all that. But, it is quite apparent that we have no place there.

That said: I still believe the soldiers should be executed if they are found guilty (and all the evidence I've heard leads me to believe that they are guilty, but that is not to say that this is necessarily so.) But they should be executed by the U.S. Armed Forces.
Firing squad would be the stereotypical manner of execution.

As to the officers, I'd thought of dishonorable discharge as well, but am not entirely sure that's warranted.
For one thing, it's not so much a direct cover-up as it is an unwillingness to turn over stones looking for clues. I suppose it depends on just how much evidence they had to begin with that a heinous act had taken place.

In any case, all this says is that the US has been there too long already.

Bush.

The Iraqis have shown themselves to be... how to put this... barbaric?

a search of "shiites" on google will reveal the culture...in vivid pictures...often in red.

I disagree.
I dislike having this view that I am about to state, but it is becoming more and more apparently true over time.

The Iraqis have shown themselves to be... how to put this... barbaric? That doesn't quite carry the proper connotations... Hmm.
I'll explain by example.
The thread where the ceremony for Najaf was discussed. Biting the heads off of live frogs. Eating the liver of a living rabbit.
The execution of Saddam. The taunting. The dancing around the corpse.
I would never agree to hand American citizens over to them for 'justice'. I don't believe they're capable of it.
Yes. Cultural relativism and all that. But, it is quite apparent that we have no place there.

That said: I still believe the soldiers should be executed if they are found guilty (and all the evidence I've heard leads me to believe that they are guilty, but that is not to say that this is necessarily so.) But they should be executed by the U.S. Armed Forces.
Firing squad would be the stereotypical manner of execution.

As to the officers, I'd thought of dishonorable discharge as well, but am not entirely sure that's warranted.
For one thing, it's not so much a direct cover-up as it is an unwillingness to turn over stones looking for clues. I suppose it depends on just how much evidence they had to begin with that a heinous act had taken place.

This from a culture where nipple/tongue piercings are au courant and death squads a government policy!:rolleyes:

What? Their cultural practices creep you out? Fine. Stay. Away. From. There. See how easy it is?

Besides the barbarism is the reason I'm proposing it in the first place. I think shooting innocent people is barbaric too. How about some quid pro quo? If your culture is so high brow what is your army doing over there anyway?

And covering up a murder is shit by any other name:still stinks.

This from a culture where nipple/tongue piercings are au courant

Curious. What don't they pierce in India? Is your objection that the piercing enthusiasts don't go far enough in their self-mortification?

Fine. Stay. Away. From. There. See how easy it is?

You're preaching to the choir, my dear.
That is the conclusion I have come to. (Although, I must admit that I held the same 'conclusion' at the beginning of the war but for different reasons. Like I said, I don't like espousing this view, but it is simple fact. And I do understand the complexities of cultural relativism, but still... their culture is just... man, it's fucked.)

How about some quid pro quo?

Plenty of quid pro quo already.
Think that no Americans have been killed over their for less than honorable reasons?
Puh-lease.

And covering up a murder is shit by any other name:still stinks.

Like I said, depends on what they knew.
I said the penalties should be severe, and possibly dishonorable discharge might well be proper. Like I said, I don't know.

Curious. What don't they pierce in India? Is your objection that the piercing enthusiasts don't go far enough in their self-mortification?


I just find it strange that murder by a supposedly educated Westerner is considered less barbaric than a ritual in a military group.

Weird food rituals? Very very commonplace.

The Japanese soldiers used to slice and eat pieces of flesh from their POWs while they were still alive.

Plenty of quid pro quo already.
Think that no Americans have been killed over their for less than honorable reasons?
Puh-lease.

You mean like invading a country they have no business being in, destroying the infrastructure and setting off a civil war?

Oh yeah right! Moral relativism.

The Japanese soldiers used to slice and eat pieces of flesh from their POWs while they were still alive.



I'm sorry. I'm confused as to what sort of action you think I should take after Japanese war atrocities are thrown into the mix.

I mean, come on.
Japan.
Come on.
Seriously now.

You're not saying that the Japanese are 'western' are you?

You mean like invading a country they have no business being in, destroying the infrastructure and setting off a civil war?

Oh yeah right! Moral relativism.

I find your constant references to our 'being there' annoying seeing as how I keep agreeing with you that we shouldn't be there.
You're obviously playing to the crowd rather than simply responding to my distasteful and bordering on heinous viewpoint.

However, with that said, Americans aren't the only foreigners there. Plenty of foreigners of a different stripe and these foreigners are just as responsible for starting a civil war than the Americans. Perhaps more so seeing as how it is actually their intent to start one while the Americans actually desire peace...
Hmmm.

All of which is besides the point regarding who should try and execute the soldiers.

God, I hate this subforum.

I'm sorry. I'm confused as to what sort of action you think I should take after Japanese war atrocities are thrown into the mix.

I mean, come on.
Japan.
Come on.
Seriously now.
Good eats are good eats:p

I find your constant references to our 'being there' annoying seeing as how I keep agreeing with you that we shouldn't be there.
You're obviously playing to the crowd rather than simply responding to my distasteful and bordering on heinous viewpoint.


I'll try to remember not to trample on your sensibilities.:rolleyes:


However, with that said, Americans aren't the only foreigners there. Plenty of foreigners of a different stripe and these foreigners are just as responsible for starting a civil war than the Americans. Perhaps more so seeing as how it is actually their intent to start one while the Americans actually desire peace...
Hmmm.

What a load of tripe. Can any American even agree on the reason the US is actually there? What leads you to the glorious conclusion that the US wants peace? Could it be their super sensitive peace slogan? "We don't do body counts?"

All of which is besides the point regarding who should try and execute the soldiers.

Give them to the Iraqis. If it was good enough for Saddam...

God, I hate this subforum.
Boo ffricking hoo

Can any American even agree on the reason the US is actually there?

Once more...
Sigh.
I'm, as they say, 'outtie'.

If it was good enough for Saddam...

Quite so. What was good for Saddam should be good for our own people.
That is, we should release them to the justice of their own countrymen.

Finally, we agree.
The soldiers should be tried and executed by the U.S. Armed Forces.

Pleasure chatting with you.
Fare thee well, fair one.
I leave you to accuse other Americans of 'being there'.

*tips hat*

Quite so. What was good for Saddam should be good for our own people.
That is, we should release them to the justice of their own countrymen.

Finally, we agree.
The soldiers should be tried and executed by the U.S. Armed Forces.

Pleasure chatting with you.
Fare thee well, fair one.
I leave you to accuse other Americans of 'being there'.

*tips hat*

When in Rome?

I believe the newly instated US approved government has installed Sharia law. According to Sharia the victims decide the punishment. :D

According to Sharia the victims decide the punishment.

How about 'the boats'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism
http://www.greektexts.com/library/Plutarch/Artaxerxes/eng/199.html

How about 'the boats'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scaphism
http://www.greektexts.com/library/Plutarch/Artaxerxes/eng/199.html

Nope thats not justified. Torture is not justice.

The comfy chair til teatime then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_expects_the_spanish_inquisition

The comfy chair til teatime then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobody_expects_the_spanish_inquisition

You can't gross me out, I've worked in a hospital:)