There are many reasons god sucks here are a few of them feel free to post your own reasons.
1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

In response to the above...

1. He does exist
2. What kind of name is shady reaper.
3. He did it because we are His greatest creation and because of His holiness and purity...unfortunatly He felt that because of the great corruption of sin...He also felt that it would take His greatest gift/love to redeem man.....even you.
4. He's the creator....His right.
5. He makes no one kill no one...we have free will...just as you've choosen your ignorant path to love sin more than God...He will not make you love Him....free will.
6. What is contrary to His nature is sin/evil.
7. The world will not end...only evil will end.
8. When an unsaved man tries to understand God, without doing it thrue His Son....satan causes that man to hate (like you), satan causes deception (like you do)....etc.
9. Its only boring to the ignorant and the lost...like you.
10. If your referring to science...science proves with every archeological dig....the bible to be even more true...not once ...not one time....have they ever prove otherwise....(excuse spelling).
11. Its wrong to kill babies...duh!....and by the way how many have you feed?

Lyndale

"What comes out your mouth lies in your heart".

you wrote:
"If your referring to science...science proves with every archeological dig....the bible to be even more true...not once ...not one time...."

Name 2 I think 1 will be a stretch but you seem pretty certain so go ahead and name them. Or if that's too hard name 1 scientific study/proof that would even hint that your god is more then a figment of your imagination or at best a myth.

You also said:
"have they ever prove otherwise....(excuse spelling)."

The claims are being made by christains hence the burden of proof lies with you lot.

1. that's my opinion and I can have it and it will stay that way until you can prove otherwise without using the bible or other fictional stories
2. but i am not actually a shady reaper where as god is supposedly a god
3. i think if he sat down and thought about it he could have come up with a better way
4. just cause you invent a game doesn't give you the right to constantly make up new rules whenever the hell you please
5. ever heard of manifest destiny or a holy war
6. God is just mad that he never got any
7. fine then he will be responsible for the end evil
8. But god talked to noah did he hate and have deception after talking to him
9. no it's only boring to people who know what entertainment is
10. I was mostly refering to things like evolution or say that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth
11. But they are not babies till they are born did you ever think that god put abortion into his manifest destiny doesn't he decide when people live and die mostly so wouldn't he decide if he wanted an unborn fetus dead or just a clump of cells. I have fed none that's not my job I watch out for myself how about god watches out for his " Children"

I don't believe in any god too.

But not believing in a god doesn't give you the right to talk about others religion the way you do...

Other people believe in a God, and you can't say something about it until you really know what the religion is all about.

And probably you don't know where it's all about, else you wouldn't say such stupid things as:
"He makes people kill other people."

Do something else when you want to f*ck someone, but not with their religion.
And when will you do it, don't do it with such bad motivations and opinions.

You're sick, and you don't know where you're talking about.
Go do your homework Shady_reaper.

Hi Shady, welcome to sciforums.

So here are some alterations/adjustments/corrections to your suggestions.

The title of the topic indicates that you assume a god exists since you have assigned him a positive attribute, i.e. ability to suck, and he would have to exist to be able to do that. Perhaps a better title would have been ‘Why Christianity Sucks’, because their god is really just a concept of fiction.

1. He doesn't exist That is indeed the most credible conclusion based on what we know however you can’t prove it. So you have made an unsupported claim in the same way that Christians make unsupported claims when they say a god does exist.

2. What kind of name is god for a god This is just pure arrogance on the part of Christians and in fact by any mono-theist religion. It is the idea that there is only one god so the name and the entity become the same. It is of course insulting to everyone else in the world who support poly-theistic concepts.

3.He let his son face a horrible death Yes very bizarre and fully consistent with many other biblical macabre and violent allegations.

4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose Yes the mark of the true evil tyrant.

5. He makes people kill other people Not sure what you had in mind here but certainly at the time of the Crusades Christians felt quite justified in murdering innocent people if they refused to convert to Christianity.

6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want Ah the moral high ground. This is largely based on feelings of guilt experienced by pious Christians – personal pleasure being not in their god’s best interest.

7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world Basic sales tactic to make you buy early before it is too late.

8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house Not sure what you had in mind here – but certainly many fundamentalists are dangerous to society and perhaps should be incarcerated.

9.His book is the most boring book ever written There are certainly many other far more enjoyable books of fiction available.

10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement Yes probably the greatest evil advanced by Christianity. Christianity can only survive if its followers remain ignorant of truth and new knowledge. Any instigative thinking would threaten the established rule of as totalitarian regime such as Christianity.

11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions Oh and many other cruelties. If such a god truly loved and wanted to care for humanity he could have created a far better environment. Christians claim that their god is a personal god, and that he cares for each individual. But there are plenty of incidents where people have prayed very hard in moments of dire need, only to suffer terrible agonies and death.

Cris

Cris that was great and humurous which was the point of this post not to be a jerk and totally denounce other peoples rerligion they are allowed to believe whatever they want it's in the first ammendment. I hope other people understand t6his as a joke and their own jokes or reasons that god sucks to it.

I wish i knew where I was talking about Kned. Do you know where your talking about? And why is it that no one gets he makes people kill other people I am talking about manifest destiny, jihads, and holy wars( like the crusades).

This is a new reason why god sucks


He is a hate monger because he sends gays to hell for being gay and that is just intolerance

KneD:And probably you don't know where it's all about, else you wouldn't say such stupid things as:
"He makes people kill other people."

Do something else when you want to f*ck someone, but not with their religion.
And when will you do it, don't do it with such bad motivations and opinions. Simply:

1) Read the Old Testament. God makes his chosen people kill a whole lot of other people. In the modern day, certain murderers still feel compelled to cite God, and to make arguments justifying themselves no less coherent than the babblings in defense of Inquisitions, Witch Trials, whipping carts, &c.

2) The exceptional hypocisy of your words is jaw-dropping. Christianity fucks with everyone. Not just their religions, not just their manner of living, but their very lives. Oh, poor Christians: don't lord your religion over the people like in Oregon and Colorado; don't doubt God by insisting that someone needs to change from what God made them. Furthermore, what's so bad about the motivation of sparing the world of superstitious grief?

Lyndale

Such hateful words! I don't see Shady exercising hate, except perhaps toward a God most deserving of it; if this is how God chose to interact with Shady, then Shady's opinions are valid. And can you ever do better than, "Did not, did too!"? Really, all you've accomplished is a jealous, bratty restatement of your faith (I would cite a specific point here, but the whole thing reeks of it). As far as I can tell, the only reason you think you're right is because you decided to believe it. I admit, it's a lot easier and more expedient a path than actually figuring out what it is you're believing. And you're right: disagreeing with you is so Satanically deceptive :rolleyes:

Come on, guys: people have just spilled it in the short form--Why God Sucks in as direct of sentences as possible; this seemingly harsh approach is sometimes necessary, since y'all seem to get lost in the more detailed rhetoric. Certainly you can comphrehend what they're saying well enough to do better than that?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Hiya Cris ...

Been busy, nice to be back. Thanks for "religiously" (pardon the pun) stating the obvious!

Take care

Cris, Tiassa and People like you.

What is a Christian?

The word Christian, means “Christ like”. Which means...to be a mirror image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Unfortunately, there are many who say, “I am a Christian” but are not.

I would like to talk about 3 types of people in this world...the Deceived, Tares and Christians.

The first, the Deceived. In other words those that know not God. Just as there is a God there is also the adversary Satan and his fallen angels. They go about creating deception in all hearts that know not God. God is a package deal...with one comes the other. Think not, that Satan and the fallen , sit around twiddling their thumbs. They whisper in all hearts, spreading lies, deceit, twisted truths, pretend to be images, that people worship or put their hopes in (i.e. mary, aliens). Give thoughts of the past to make people think reincarnation. These are just a few examples. There are many more. Many. Think about this...If Satan is...what religion/faith would He try to make mankind hate the most? Obviously, the one that was the correct path to God. Right? Now think what is the correct path to God? The bible says... quoting Jesus...”I am the way, the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me”. So, Jesus being the correct path and if a follower is called a Christian.........is Christianity the most hated religion? ....think about it.
Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe.

The second one is the “Imitator”. Bible describes these People as “Tares”. It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.
This causes problems to those who know not God. The unbeliever sees nothing but contradiction and in turn, labels them all bad. This is terrible too because we true believers should be better examples, stand out more then we do and most important...die to ourselves, live Christ’s example and love God with all our hearts. This is our free choice...we make it willingly and the only way a unbeliever can understand this is...to follow “ALL” the teachings of Jesus. Most don’t do it. Some think they do it. Others do it and fall each day but never give up.

Third a true Christian...This is a person who learned the true meaning of Sin and understands the conclusion of it and thou he as accepted the Son of God as His personal savior from this conclusion. He falls short of being worthy daily.

Which are you?
Lyndale

Lyndale I am right. If what you say about SAtan is true than all the christians are the decieved. They are the ones who hate all other beliefs which would mean that christians are only the wrong ones. You know what I think it's great for something to get buy pretending to be something else we all do that we have our public face and our private I just love it when someone comes to take a bite out of me and they suddenly realize i'm a fake. AS for the true christians they are guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. Pride. Show me someone with more pride than a cristian and i'll show you god.

Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
Lyndale I am right. If what you say about SAtan is true than all the christians are the decieved. They are the ones who hate all other beliefs which would mean that christians are only the wrong ones. You know what I think it's great for something to get buy pretending to be something else we all do that we have our public face and our private I just love it when someone comes to take a bite out of me and they suddenly realize i'm a fake. AS for the true christians they are guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. Pride. Show me someone with more pride than a cristian and i'll show you god.

We/I should not hate no person. We do not approve of any religion, that does not follow the example thrue the Son of God. I did not come to take a bite out of anyone. I came to make sure you were properly informed of what a christian is and what a christian isn't. As for your last comment,...pride, lies, deceit, etc. effect's all people...there are the forgiven and the unforgiven...and no this isn't a license to sin.

NOTE: To further prove the hate factor, concerning "satan makes people hate christians the most"....read..."The Bible is bullshi*" in this christian forum...it also proves my point. Just as you did Shady.

Lyndale.

Lyndale, you describe Tares as follows:
The second one is the “Imitator”. Bible describes these People as “Tares”. It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.

I would argue this:
The various Christian institutions produce nothing (other than more beleivers)
They steal nutrients from the wheat (i.e. the various churches rely on the contribution of it's members and government tax exemption)
They cause the owner problems (the small vocal minority of christians are constantly trying to tell the rest of us how we can and should live through coersion, legislation, and violence)

Also, Christians are always speaking about we all have free will in the eyes of God. I would equate your type of free will to this...you can disagree with me (i.e. not accept the word of God as truth), but then I'll torture you for as long as I can (i.e. sending one to hell).

Next, you say that it is wrong to kill babies (duh), but I remember a few passages in the Old Testament where God directly and specifically commanded his believers to kill non-believers, including and especially their children...so I guess it's ok when you are commanded by God to kill babies.

Finally you say the Bible is truth, so then you would agree to the following "Truths":
1. (Lev. 11:10) Eating Shellfish is an abomination
2. (Lev. 25:44) Owning slaves is allowed by God, provided they are from another state.
3. (Ex. 21:7) Selling one's daughter into slavery is sacntioned by God
4. (Ex.35:2) Working on the Sabath is an offense punishable by death, in God's eyes.

Sorry, my study of the Bible is limited, but I'm sure I could come up with more. I'm sure you will now claim I am Satan and that no one should believe my lies, but it seems a little reasonable that people would be resistant to beleifs that take the above into account. I think that Christians have some beliefs and sometimes participate to better their communities, but when you refuse to allow respect for anyone else's beliefs it becomes difficult to appreciate those things.

Lyndale since everyone hate the KKK and nazis and other hate mongers does that mean Satan is doing it and that means hating blacks, jews, and homosexuals will send you to heaven. And why doesn't god have a problem with incest because that is really wrong. Also I would like to say that Christians need to get over the bible as a true story even the fricken pope has said it is not true it is just a book to teach lessons much like a book of fables full of ficticious stories to illustrate a point. The pope the head of all this crap has admitted the bible is ficticious. So get over the freakin bible you bible freaks

Originally posted by spencer
Lyndale, you describe Tares as follows:


I would argue this:
The various Christian institutions produce nothing (other than more beleivers)
They steal nutrients from the wheat (i.e. the various churches rely on the contribution of it's members and government tax exemption)
They cause the owner problems (the small vocal minority of christians are constantly trying to tell the rest of us how we can and should live through coersion, legislation, and violence)

Also, Christians are always speaking about we all have free will in the eyes of God. I would equate your type of free will to this...you can disagree with me (i.e. not accept the word of God as truth), but then I'll torture you for as long as I can (i.e. sending one to hell).

Next, you say that it is wrong to kill babies (duh), but I remember a few passages in the Old Testament where God directly and specifically commanded his believers to kill non-believers, including and especially their children...so I guess it's ok when you are commanded by God to kill babies.

Finally you say the Bible is truth, so then you would agree to the following "Truths":
1. (Lev. 11:10) Eating Shellfish is an abomination
2. (Lev. 25:44) Owning slaves is allowed by God, provided they are from another state.
3. (Ex. 21:7) Selling one's daughter into slavery is sacntioned by God
4. (Ex.35:2) Working on the Sabath is an offense punishable by death, in God's eyes.

Sorry, my study of the Bible is limited, but I'm sure I could come up with more. I'm sure you will now claim I am Satan and that no one should believe my lies, but it seems a little reasonable that people would be resistant to beleifs that take the above into account. I think that Christians have some beliefs and sometimes participate to better their communities, but when you refuse to allow respect for anyone else's beliefs it becomes difficult to appreciate those things.

Your reply shows you did not understand what I said.

Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
Lyndale since everyone hate the KKK and nazis and other hate mongers does that mean Satan is doing it and that means hating blacks, jews, and homosexuals will send you to heaven. And why doesn't god have a problem with incest because that is really wrong. Also I would like to say that Christians need to get over the bible as a true story even the fricken pope has said it is not true it is just a book to teach lessons much like a book of fables full of ficticious stories to illustrate a point. The pope the head of all this crap has admitted the bible is ficticious. So get over the freakin bible you bible freaks

We do not hate no one...we hate the sin. The only way to heaven is through the Son of God...Jesus. Incest is wrong. The Pope is a leader of an occult. They do not seek heaven through the Son of God. This is the only thing He is the head of ....a clear path to deception. This is a large group of tares.<remember the meaning of Tares?
Sin is anything contrary, to the nature of God and before you go posting what is contrary or not ...concerning the nature of God...at least find out what it is or isn't through the Son. Otherwise your attempts are futile.

Lyndale

so you are saying that the occult who weilds the bible as their only weapon and basicly created the bible and thus the story of the son are wrong because they don't care about jesus. Well what happened to all the people before jesus. did they all just go to hell. And why don't we pronounce it hesus?Well since satan cause hate then we hate the sin of the KKK etc. because of satan. And that means that sinning is the way into heaven. SO I call out to all who will listen sin, sin to your hearts content, sinning is the only way to heaven. If you want to go to hell be an upstanding model citizen and worship jesus and god and all that crap

Yes incest is wrong that is my point. But Adam and eve had children who did they have children with? Their brothers sisters. and evn after all that inbreeding their came a great flood and noah was the only and his family was all that was left more incest right their. according to the bible we are the product of thousands of years of inbreeding.

Lyndale: I'll keep it brief, as I've noted you've begun resorting to the one-liner: "You don't understand!" But some effort is required: If I choose to keep it so brief that there was no text to post, I will have matched your nothing with my nothing, and that's a dumb way to have a debate. Oh, that's right ... I forgot, nobody's supposed to disagree with you. :rolleyes:The first, the Deceived. In other words those that know not God. Just as there is a God there is also the adversary Satan and his fallen angels. So what exactly is it with you Christians and your Devil? In two thousand years of thinking really really hard about it, the collective force of the Christian sacrificed intellect has produced exactly zero in terms of viable philosophical resolutions. At least when Christians argue Creationism, they have one or two standard arguments before they have to resort to, "It's too complicated!"

So why don't you establish for us, once and for all, so that we may understand, exactly what purpose the Devil serves in exactly the following context:

* Christians assert the perfect knowledge of God--that is, God knows all; if you disagree with this perfect knowledge, we can end the discussion here.
* Christians assert the immutable will of God--that is, God does not make mistakes; if you disagree with this immutable will, we can end the discussion here.

1) Will the Devil be redeemed? (Something about Jesus and compassion? What's Jesus' limit on salvation?)
2) What is the extent of the Devil's authority? (Does he not, at least, have God's permission?)
3) Why does God not stop (defeat) the Devil? (What, as if God couldn't if He so wished?)
4) Why does God permit, at the very least--though possibly endorse or even commission--the Devil's work? (What purpose does this serve?)
5) Is God directly responsible for evil? (Consider the above.)

The truth of the matter is that by the rules the Christians have chosen by the setting of the Canon make the Devil as described for most of history quite impossible. The Devil is a dramatic tool at worst, a scapegoat at best.

If the Devil operates, he does so with God's full authority; the Devil must necessarily be in good standing (we need not even consider Job, such is the manner of the argument, but there's that, too, in case you try to claim that it's not in the Bible that the Devil has good standing); God, therefore, is directly responsible for evil, which makes the Devil into God's flak-man, and one might wonder that the guy's a little upset because look at the wounds he takes for existing as God created him.

The "Fall" of the Devil contributes here, too: God foresaw this rebellion, and deemed it necessary to the equation. The Devil behaves exactly as God wants and requires him to. If evil is evil, and should not be, then God has created it and put it into the Universe intentionally. To blame the Devil is the inability of the faithful to consider that God wants it this way. If the Devil is tempting you, it's because God demands that he do. Yes, you specifically. For nothing happens in this Universe, as I understand it, without God's say-so.

Or does the Devil exist outside God's authority? Is it possible that something exists in this Universe that transcends God's will, escapes His power?hink about this...If Satan is...what religion/faith would He try to make mankind hate the most? Obviously, the one that was the correct path to God. Right? Now think what is the correct path to God? The bible says... quoting Jesus..."I am the way, the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me". So, Jesus being the correct path and if a follower is called a Christian.........is Christianity the most hated religion? ....think about it. You've missed an option, and I think Emerald may have presented something quite like this before. So the Devil hates God and wishes to obscure the path. How best to do this? Well, dressing up as a virgin-born sorcerer and political commentator seems to have worked. Many of your fellow Christians at Sciforums claim that we pagans hate not you but God; this is probably true in the sense that we choose not to hate people. So if it's about hating God, how better to do that than to take away from him the apples (so to speak) of his eye? What happens if Satan leads the flock to the dark side? How better to do that than to create an obligatory religion, target it at the least educated and therefore most superstitious people in society (we should note here that Jesus was not working to attract the social elite, the academics, or the rich) such as the uneducated homeless, the social refuse, and those ostracized by their illness. What happens, then, when the sum effect of that religion is the outright defiance of God's commandments? Think of all the killing and hatred that Christians have sponsored throughout history: is this really what God intended? What ever happened to Thou shall not kill? (Lawdog is excepted here, since we already know that his answer is, at best, to plead apathy.) What about coveting your neighbors? What, are American Christians going to blame Manifest Destiny on the Deists? (Did you know that a law existed on the books of Tacoma, Washington, until the 1990's that may still be intact that makes it illegal to sell spirits to a person of indigenous American descent? Somehow, I don't see the Deists giving much of a rip about how much a Native drinks; nor do I recall that fierce Deist heritage of writing useless blue laws. I guarantee you this is a holdover of the temperance and prohibition movements driven by evangelical Christianity.) What the hell wasn't covetous about Manifest Destiny?Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe. I would advise that you to check out page 9 of Crumbling the foundations of Christianity, in which your fellow Christian Lawdog threatens a culture with extinction(6/9/2001); and later on (page 10, 6/11/2001) when the Dog endorses murder in the name of Jesus. After two thousand years of murder, it seems that Christians still don't get it the way they're supposed to. That's all well and fine for those who know they're imperfect and expect such imperfections, but in the meantime the Christian heart is callous toward the dead. It seems that human life is only reserved to Christian life. If this was a rare thing, and had not two millennia of exemplary history, such a collapse of the thought process would not worry me as much. We know that Christians who bomb medical facilities and shoot doctors aren't following the Bible, but they're right in there with the most glaring trends of Christian faith. We know that men who beat their wives aren't practicing what Jesus said, but what's up with the fact that this still isn't clear? What, is there nothing to be done about it? Are you all just ... waiting around for God to show up and handle it? You, Lyndale, who accuse people of hate, something about a beam in your eye! You would feel persecuted because of something you chose to believe? You would feel persecuted because people are less than comfortable with the brands of violence, hatred, and division you choose to believe in? Your faith is your choice, Lyndale. So is the kicking around of people that has traditionally come with it. As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people. What about it don't you understand that God made these people as they are? Who the hell are you to question God's motives in this Universe? What, does the Almighty have a tech-support desk you can e-mail to tell Him about your perceived bugs in His program? Or do you proceed on faith in your own mortal judgement and try to correct what He has done wrong?

What is it about other people that Christians find so unacceptable? Yet after two thousand years of declaring that people are not fit to exist as God made them, Christians dare feel persecuted when people talk about what's wrong with the religion?

Get it together: understand your faith so that everything doesn't feel so much like the hatred you're so determined to find.The second one is the "Imitator". Bible describes these People as "Tares". It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.

This causes problems to those who know not God. The unbeliever sees nothing but contradiction and in turn, labels them all bad. This is terrible too because we true believers should be better examples, stand out more then we do and most important...die to ourselves, live Christ’s example and love God with all our hearts. This is our free choice...we make it willingly and the only way a unbeliever can understand this is...to follow "ALL" the teachings of Jesus. Most don’t do it. Some think they do it. Others do it and fall each day but never give up.Only two (2) quick notes this time.

1) I especially agree with the part I've boldfaced.

2) The farmer should be more careful about what he sows. For after all, what you sow, so also shall you reap. Third a true Christian...This is a person who learned the true meaning of Sin and understands the conclusion of it and thou he as accepted the Son of God as His personal savior from this conclusion. He falls short of being worthy daily. I'll agree with this except for two quick points:

1) I'm about as positive as I can be in my assumption that we have very different criteria regarding the true meaning of Sin and what it means to understand ... well, just about anything.

2) If I live to see the Judgement, and Christ walks before me, I will expect that He will be the first true Christian I'll ever meet.

A personal note: How's the camera coming along?

Actually, I'm quite curious, as I've noted the number of your posts and your registration date: I could have sworn you posted a couple of topics, including one in which you told me to stay out of your posts. In this case, I'm quite sorry to rain on your parade except that, well, you addressed me. But did you pull the topics, or is there another reason they've disappeared? If you're actually another Lyndale, or if that Lyndale was an hallucination, then I kindly beg your pardon. (I must note, though, you both bear a striking similarity in tone.)

By the way, just what constitutes people like you. Given the associative problems Christians in Oregon have displayed for over a decade, now, I'm kinda curious.

Oh, yeah. Whoops. Sorry, I didn't keep it brief. Just do your best, dear.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
Lyndale: I'll keep it brief, as I've noted you've begun resorting to the one-liner: "You don't understand!" But some effort is required: If I choose to keep it so brief that there was no text to post, I will have matched your nothing with my nothing, and that's a dumb way to have a debate. Oh, that's right ... I forgot, nobody's supposed to disagree with you. :rolleyes: So what exactly is it with you Christians and your Devil? In two thousand years of thinking really really hard about it, the collective force of the Christian sacrificed intellect has produced exactly zero in terms of viable philosophical resolutions. At least when Christians argue Creationism, they have one or two standard arguments before they have to resort to, "It's too complicated!"

So why don't you establish for us, once and for all, so that we may understand, exactly what purpose the Devil serves in exactly the following context:

* Christians assert the perfect knowledge of God--that is, God knows all; if you disagree with this perfect knowledge, we can end the discussion here.
* Christians assert the immutable will of God--that is, God does not make mistakes; if you disagree with this immutable will, we can end the discussion here.

1) Will the Devil be redeemed? (Something about Jesus and compassion? What's Jesus' limit on salvation?)
2) What is the extent of the Devil's authority? (Does he not, at least, have God's permission?)
3) Why does God not stop (defeat) the Devil? (What, as if God couldn't if He so wished?)
4) Why does God permit, at the very least--though possibly endorse or even commission--the Devil's work? (What purpose does this serve?)
5) Is God directly responsible for evil? (Consider the above.)

The truth of the matter is that by the rules the Christians have chosen by the setting of the Canon make the Devil as described for most of history quite impossible. The Devil is a dramatic tool at worst, a scapegoat at best.

If the Devil operates, he does so with God's full authority; the Devil must necessarily be in good standing (we need not even consider Job, such is the manner of the argument, but there's that, too, in case you try to claim that it's not in the Bible that the Devil has good standing); God, therefore, is directly responsible for evil, which makes the Devil into God's flak-man, and one might wonder that the guy's a little upset because look at the wounds he takes for existing as God created him.

The "Fall" of the Devil contributes here, too: God foresaw this rebellion, and deemed it necessary to the equation. The Devil behaves exactly as God wants and requires him to. If evil is evil, and should not be, then God has created it and put it into the Universe intentionally. To blame the Devil is the inability of the faithful to consider that God wants it this way. If the Devil is tempting you, it's because God demands that he do. Yes, you specifically. For nothing happens in this Universe, as I understand it, without God's say-so.

Or does the Devil exist outside God's authority? Is it possible that something exists in this Universe that transcends God's will, escapes His power?You've missed an option, and I think Emerald may have presented something quite like this before. So the Devil hates God and wishes to obscure the path. How best to do this? Well, dressing up as a virgin-born sorcerer and political commentator seems to have worked. Many of your fellow Christians at Sciforums claim that we pagans hate not you but God; this is probably true in the sense that we choose not to hate people. So if it's about hating God, how better to do that than to take away from him the apples (so to speak) of his eye? What happens if Satan leads the flock to the dark side? How better to do that than to create an obligatory religion, target it at the least educated and therefore most superstitious people in society (we should note here that Jesus was not working to attract the social elite, the academics, or the rich) such as the uneducated homeless, the social refuse, and those ostracized by their illness. What happens, then, when the sum effect of that religion is the outright defiance of God's commandments? Think of all the killing and hatred that Christians have sponsored throughout history: is this really what God intended? What ever happened to Thou shall not kill? (Lawdog is excepted here, since we already know that his answer is, at best, to plead apathy.) What about coveting your neighbors? What, are American Christians going to blame Manifest Destiny on the Deists? (Did you know that a law existed on the books of Tacoma, Washington, until the 1990's that may still be intact that makes it illegal to sell spirits to a person of indigenous American descent? Somehow, I don't see the Deists giving much of a rip about how much a Native drinks; nor do I recall that fierce Deist heritage of writing useless blue laws. I guarantee you this is a holdover of the temperance and prohibition movements driven by evangelical Christianity.) What the hell wasn't covetous about Manifest Destiny?I would advise that you to check out page 9 of Crumbling the foundations of Christianity, in which your fellow Christian Lawdog threatens a culture with extinction(6/9/2001); and later on (page 10, 6/11/2001) when the Dog endorses murder in the name of Jesus. After two thousand years of murder, it seems that Christians still don't get it the way they're supposed to. That's all well and fine for those who know they're imperfect and expect such imperfections, but in the meantime the Christian heart is callous toward the dead. It seems that human life is only reserved to Christian life. If this was a rare thing, and had not two millennia of exemplary history, such a collapse of the thought process would not worry me as much. We know that Christians who bomb medical facilities and shoot doctors aren't following the Bible, but they're right in there with the most glaring trends of Christian faith. We know that men who beat their wives aren't practicing what Jesus said, but what's up with the fact that this still isn't clear? What, is there nothing to be done about it? Are you all just ... waiting around for God to show up and handle it? You, Lyndale, who accuse people of hate, something about a beam in your eye! You would feel persecuted because of something you chose to believe? You would feel persecuted because people are less than comfortable with the brands of violence, hatred, and division you choose to believe in? Your faith is your choice, Lyndale. So is the kicking around of people that has traditionally come with it. As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people. What about it don't you understand that God made these people as they are? Who the hell are you to question God's motives in this Universe? What, does the Almighty have a tech-support desk you can e-mail to tell Him about your perceived bugs in His program? Or do you proceed on faith in your own mortal judgement and try to correct what He has done wrong?

What is it about other people that Christians find so unacceptable? Yet after two thousand years of declaring that people are not fit to exist as God made them, Christians dare feel persecuted when people talk about what's wrong with the religion?

Get it together: understand your faith so that everything doesn't feel so much like the hatred you're so determined to find.Only two (2) quick notes this time.

1) I especially agree with the part I've boldfaced.

2) The farmer should be more careful about what he sows. For after all, what you sow, so also shall you reap. I'll agree with this except for two quick points:

1) I'm about as positive as I can be in my assumption that we have very different criteria regarding the true meaning of Sin and what it means to understand ... well, just about anything.

2) If I live to see the Judgement, and Christ walks before me, I will expect that He will be the first true Christian I'll ever meet.

A personal note: How's the camera coming along?

Actually, I'm quite curious, as I've noted the number of your posts and your registration date: I could have sworn you posted a couple of topics, including one in which you told me to stay out of your posts. In this case, I'm quite sorry to rain on your parade except that, well, you addressed me. But did you pull the topics, or is there another reason they've disappeared? If you're actually another Lyndale, or if that Lyndale was an hallucination, then I kindly beg your pardon. (I must note, though, you both bear a striking similarity in tone.)

By the way, just what constitutes people like you. Given the associative problems Christians in Oregon have displayed for over a decade, now, I'm kinda curious.

Oh, yeah. Whoops. Sorry, I didn't keep it brief. Just do your best, dear.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa
You are a constant proof, that..." satan hates Christians the most"...keep up the bad work, you make your master proud. Maybe someone else will notice and take steps to find out why and eventually look to God thrue the Son.

I feel sorry for you Tiassa, your letting your hate blind you.

May God have mercy on you.

Lyndale.

Try harder. Really.

But there's one thing that I just can't figure out: May God have mercy on you. What reasons motivate you to wish me ill?

Lawdog has threatened people like me (and you still haven't advised what you mean by that), Loone goes around trumping military metaphors and the triumph of the sword, and now here's you, wishing me, personally, ill.

But I shall make a note of it that you are either unwilling or incapable of answering even the simpler questions I have asked. Either way, you are demonstrating my point.

I have faith in people in general, Lyndale, and that's why I'm sure you can do better than that. It just takes a little effort.

--Tiassa :cool:

WHy is it that whenever you pin a christian in a corner they say that it's hate. Since when is disbelief or exercising free will hate. WHen did this happen. I wish I had known about it because I would have voted against. And If anyone dasagrees with me it's because they are blinded by hate

I am continuely amazed, how you twist your/my words and meanings...to establish your HALF TRUTHS.


Lyndale.

lyndale you are blinded by hate. Youi must accept my beliefs through my non existant son that is the only path to my eternal holy afterlife haven a heaven if you will. If you cannot do this because you are blinded by hate you will be tortured forever in the worst places of all places lets just call it hell. Oh and I need money you can make your donations at my overglorified worship house and I promise it will come to me and because of this you will get into heaven.

Shady:

Thank you for covering that one; I wasn't sure who he was talking to. Of your continual amazement, I wanted to offer a theory that works toward both two forms of negativity that you and I seem to be regarding as hateful.

I would assert that the hatred conveyed, and the perception of hatred conveyed--that is, both the vitriol of Lyndale's excoriations, and also his perceptions of hatred when differences are on the table--result from the isolation brought about by the haughty assumption of being "God's" elect. What this results in is at least twofold:

* A reduction of human symathy and a necessary compensation through the means of assumptive empathy. Combined with the presupposition of the worst in people (e.g.--we are all born into sin), the assumptive empathy becomes a primary factor in achieving salvation. One of the faith extends their heart where they know not necessarily what one is engaging. I remember once, hearing someone tell a suicidal that they understand the pain, but this isn't the way of doing it. Now, being that this empathic, understanding person did not share even a common degree of relevant life experience (e.g. had not been raped by her father, silenced by her preacher, and ignored by her mother) I generally question the nature of that empathy. That empathy strove not toward reconciliation of the self, but the greedy end of personal salvation. I hear people who proudly announce that they've never used drugs saying that they understand the drug addict. I hear people who hate homosexuals saying that they understand a homosexual's emotional state. In my own youth, Christians tried daily to tell me what I was thinking and feeling; the upshot of this, of course, was my increased attention to art and its deeper meanings--I have progressed as an artist in ways I may not have. But this reduction of human sympathy and increase of assumptive empathy toward the worst in people results in the hateful-seeming apathy toward the legitimacy of other persons. The bottom line is that no matter how much a person of faith "loves" another, the attempt to redeem that person and convert them to the faith merely reminds that person that someone finds them unacceptable as God made them. Such empathic assumptions, combined with that obsession with sin and darkness, results in a hateful assault against other people.

* We must remember that people of the Christian faith live amid exceptional dualism. History shows that Christianity requires an all-or-nothing result. Entire nations have fallen to the mercy of this God and His people; every hatred licensed by the superiority of being among God's elect. Amid such bizarre principles, we might possibly see in the modern faith a tendency to assume dualism. That is, since I do not agree with you, I must apparently hate you as God hates those who disagree with Him. Or something quite like that.

I have to admit that when Oral Roberts said God demanded four-million dollars or else Oral should kill himself ... well, I was kind of surprised that people sent the money. In fact, that period from Roberts through Falwell and Tilton drove nails into my waning fear of God. Hung it on the wall, to be honest. It wasn't the preachers themselves; hell, I could tell they were snake-oilers. But what amazed me time and time again was the response of the faithful. Instead of showing pride by cleaning house, they showed pride by pretending there was no mess.

Oh, and I need money .... :rolleyes: You have made me grin, sir, and I thank you.

Lyndale:

As I noted to Shady, I wasn't sure which of whom you were talking to. At any rate, there's a fair chance it's me. In that case, let me advise you that no, I'm not twisting your words.

* The mercy of your God is a plague. Too many have suffered in the name of that mercy. Too many today suffer in the name of that mercy. It is my opinion that humanity has a better chance of surviving in the Universe without Christianity; I can justify this merely by noting that the religion looks forward to the end of the world. But the human effect has been largely and characteritically detrimental. When you wish the mercy of your God unto me, I can only be comforted by the knowledge that he's more than likely not listening to you.

It's that assumptive empathy.

Oh, something for your wisdom to clarify for all of us apparently incapable of understanding:Tiassa
You are a constant proof, that..." satan hates Christians the most"...Tell you what, I'll concede the point to you if you can demonstrate it syllogistically. Easy enough?

No, seriously. This I gotta see.

--Tiassa :cool:

Hi everyone. Sorry to come into this late but I havn't posted for two or three weeks because my old computer died. :(

It was said in page one that Christians hate other peoples beliefs. I actually think it is great that other people are searching for God. I have been teased by other people because of my belief. I don't hold it against them or say anything derogitory back, instead, I am very pleased that they are just seeking approval by their God.

Tiassa, what is happening in Colorado and Oregon? I always hear you say that Christianity is ruining and trying to control other peoples lives but I have never heard anything about that. You can call me naive for that. I live in a country where 30% of the population don't believe in any God.

Thanks.

Tiassa,

Well, after having been out of town on a business trip, I've returned to find you've done all my work for me here - hey, thanks! ;)

Yes, I was the one who suggested that Jesus was the one who came to deceive the easily misled. It wasn't a very popular notion, I'm afraid, but thanks for mentioning it. :)

Anyway <b>Shady</b>, speaking of lists, here's a couple of not too irrelevant "top ten" jokes to lighten things up a bit (or not ;) ):

<a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.reli.html">Comebacks to religious promoters knocking on your door</a>

<a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.god.html">Signs that God hates you</a>

Enjoy! :)

Emerald

Shady,

Here is an interesting, not to mention, rather unusual, "top ten" list of reasons to become a devout Christian, which I found on the internet (I'm reprinting it here because unless you go directly to the site and click on the appropriate link from there, what you get is a yellow font color against a white background):

<a href="http://www.ieway.com/climbit/god_files/top%20ten%20reasons%20for%20jesus%20in%20unbelief. htm">TOP TEN REASONS ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....</a>

<font color="green">The idea here is to post scripture references and academic research paper links with each of the Top Ten items... like ‘AMA reports that heavy consumption of alcohol reduces life span of dumb white males.’ If you have any such links –SEND ‘EM!

#10. NOTHING WILL SHRIVEL UP, FALL OFF, MAKE YOU IMPOTENT, or KILL YOU. e.g. You will have less (perhaps approaching zed, zero, nada, zilch) chance of contracting a sexually transmitted disease (STD) if you’re celibate (ouch! but still possible!!) or faithfully married to your single partner of the opposite sex. (Look we don’t make the rules, we just know its really smart to follow them based on 4000 years of tradition and reams of modern scientific study... but whatever).

#9. IT’S PART OF YOUR HEALTHY DIET.... A healthy lifestyle of eating habits with emphasis on fruits, nuts, grains, and lean meats (not to mention fowl and bread from heaven) with avoidance of fat and blood (again we won’t mention the temperate use of wine, juices, and water) is GOOD for the body per biblical principles!

#8. IT’LL HELP YOU BECOME WISER AND CLEVER (sneaky?). There is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, run a business, treat your enemies, enjoy victory, learn from defeat, stay healthy, have as much fun in the long-run as possible, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus embodied in Christianity. Proverbs 9:10, John 10:10

#7. IF YOU PLAY IT RIGHT YOU CAN EVEN LOOK SMART. The Bible - old and new testaments - is the only ‘religious’ book that has not been found in direct conflict with modern science, physics, astronomy, etc. Yeah, yeah, there’s some controversy over some little details like the Flood, original Creation, but its all in the details! Besides, you don’t care because you’re not really believing in the whole eternal God thing anyway. These are reasons to be a Christian without really believing. Scientists are weirding out ‘cause they may have to decide to believe in something besides randomness and minor fluctuations in the Second Law of Thermodynamics.. yikes! You could be one step ahead and already be a Bible-Believin-Dr-Hugh-Ross-Thinkin-Bill-Nye-Lookin-Physics- Quotin-Disciple before it becomes popular, kind of like going to the Pearl Jam concert in Austin TX at Liberty Lounge in 1993 (?) right before Jeremy hit MTV, no? (Anyone remember Pearl Jam?). Besides, old Jewish scholars in the 8th century were already talking superstrings and the existence of God in 10 dimensions, so what’s new under the sun anyway.... be hip... or whatever... God and old earth creation .. death of gradualism... anthropic principle (or is it princi-pal)... intelligent design... just keep repeatin stuff like that and you’l be all over it. Check out http://www.reasons.org/index.html

#6. IT’LL HELP YOU MAKE AND KEEP FRIENDS AND A LOVER. Low on friends? Who isn’t? Dumped by that loser boyfriend again? Yeah! You know, an excellent argument can be made that there is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, maintain good relationships, show love, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus found in Christianity.

#5. FORGIVENESS & A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. Christianity is the only ‘religion’ that teaches that forgiveness for ourselves and from us to others is a fundamental right of existence. Most religions either conclude you have nothing to feel guilty or require forgiveness from.... do they have your conscience?! They certainly dont have mine! In other systems of thought, forgiveness either does not really exist (it is a deception) which is kind of ridiculous as far as I know or they teach it must be earned. If you are good enough you get forgiven. If not, too bad. That’s a rough world, where you never get to hear “Sorry dude” or “It’s cool” e.g. forgive you” from your mom, dad. sister, cat, brother, friend, dog, boyfriend, spouse, etc.

#4. COMMUNITY, INCLUSION, AND A HELPING HAND. Christians maintain a tight ‘community’ that helps each other out and does stuff together. There is a group of people who know you, miss you, and want to do stuff with you! In many unfortunate examples, some groups of Christians dont seem to want new members or people who aren’t like them - they forget what they used to be like. In all cases, anybody will eventually get accepted because that’s what Jesus said to do, so we’re stuck with you! And once everybody gets to know you, turns out you’re not so bad after all. A sense of belonging, of being included in something that is bigger than you, is what results. You could get that at the local pub or gentleman’s night club, I guess, but the cover charges are terrible and no-one seems to come around once you really need some serious help. There’s always the Kiwanis and Lions Club but doggone it those membership fees are killer.

#3. YOU WON’T HAVE TO BE CONFUSED BY STRANGE CONCEPTS LIKE RIGHT AND WRONG! This is similar to #8 but way different... waz’ up! Oh yeah, in Christian belief there is a very clear distinction between RIGHT (stuff the Bible says is OK or good for you) and WRONG (stuff on the other end of that spectrum). This allows one to live a pretty uncluttered, semi-un-confusing, unambiguous kind of life. When people say, ‘Hey, dude, let’s go get wasted.’ you can check the concordance (index of words) for wasted or something similar and can’t find it... so you call some old guy at the church (he’s 30 or something) and he directs you to that same bible without ‘wasted in the directory’ and it says that your body is the temple of God and that you’re supposed to be temperate in all things and PRESTO! it turns out that getting wasted is wrong. What a relief.... without that little tidbit of information, you might have spent a lot of time either a) wondering and worrying if you should go do this or b) vomiting, nursing a hangover, holding funeral services for dead brain and liver cells, etc. What’s weird about all this is that even when we do stuff the Bible says is wrong (AKA ‘SIN’) Christianity is so cool because we just pray to God in heaven (which we don’t really believe in, right?) and get our sin transferred over to another God-division/department and off ourselves!!! Clean conscience and everything (see related topic #5), that is assuming we REALLY are sorry about that little failing we had and will struggle not to repeat it. It’s a great system for a healthy state of mind (emotional health). Incidentally, what the Bible calls right and good has largely been shown to contribute measurably (see article links below) to long life, psychological wellness, life span, etc. and vice versa (note that the alpha case for AIDS/HIV was a homosexual man - well, it was - we can’t be politically correct all the time, can we.... oh,,,,, we can? sorry.)

#2. YOU’LL HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR FREE TIME AND IT WILL SEEM LIKE YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE AN BIGGER THAN YOURSELF AND MAYBE I WONT BE SO ALONE AND THE LONELINESS IS WORST AT NIGHTS AND ETC> ETC> ETC> ETC> As a 14 year old girl wearing leather and a spiked dog collar once told us, ‘Yeah, everyone is born with some kind of hole in their heart and they try to fill it.’ Based on #3-#10 on the Top Ten List, might as well fill it with Christianity?! Why NOT? Why not fill it with vibrant, full, deep, passionate Christianity (which does include the Song of songs you know as a Christian lover’s guide to passion and delight in marriage - it also tells some wild parallels between the same deal and how Christ might think of the church as his bride if you were nuts enough to get whacked by the Holy Spirit and believe in stuff like, well, like the Holy Spirit and the new Jerusalem and eternal city of God, etc.). By the way, I am appalled that Christians are NOT any fun... I’ve seen many, many dull Christians and its just not BIBLICAL!!! Let’s buck up here and live like we believe the Bible on Daniel, Elijah, Joseph, John the Baptist (that dude could hike and camp anywhere!) etc.... Where was I? Oh yes, we all seek to fill that hole in our hearts with something bigger than us. We wanna belong. We wanna be ‘right.’ We wanna be ‘tough’ we wanna be ‘popular’ we wanna be ‘outcasts’ we wanna be ‘goodies’ or ‘unforgiven’ or whatever. The truth is we wanna be anything but us.

and the #1 reason ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....

#1. IT ALL SEEMS SO REAL..... The Christian life seems so remarkably REAL. Bad things happen (wow). Good things happen (hmmm). Stuff rocks. Other stuff sucks. But when you are convinced (or at least deceiving yourself) that your life here is but a waking dream, that gives all those good and bad things a strangely different twist ... a new perspective. You respond differently (at least some percentage of the time) than somebody who’s convinced that their entire life and sole chance for happiness DIED with the cancellation of the Everclear concert in Portland... For a Christian, one can always convince themselves, like - so what? Will Everclear be in heaven? If not, too bad. If so, maybe we can jam up there (or so the thought process might go). The point is (and Jesus said this in John 10:10): that Christians have the ability to embrace life and live life to the fullest - the highest highs, the lowest lows, and all the neat interludes in between. Most people miss most of their lives because they’re not paying attention - like driving home after a really great time with a new ‘love’ or after an inebriating early morning encounter with a ditch/tree/ stop sign/police officer.... uhhh, i never saw it, officer. Christians have the ability to embrace life and say ‘Let it come, God, I’m ready to ROCK!’ We soak up the pain and that last cup of sorrow and cry the guts out and then we’re fresh again, because after all - God is on our side, right? Then we can jump up and down and smash a few guitars/glasses/rocks/soccerballs/(insert-your-word-here) out of the sheer joy of living life with good friends, solid beliefs, firm foundations, and FUN things to do.

I guess it would be hard to do this if you don’t truly believe that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God, the same as God stuffed into a little temporal earth-suit (I stole this phrase from Kyle Miller, Austin TX, Professional Christian Counseling Service pccs@flash.net) who died to pay for my bad mojo (sin - kinda like bail money to pay my behavioral debt to God) and then loved me enough to LIVE again and have a cool time hanging out as my older brother and helping me along. Whatever, you gotta believe in something, even if it’s wrong. Some old fart band named RUSH had a line that said ‘If you choose not to believe you still have made a choice...’ duh. And a sad, lonely choice! Join the ranks of the self-deceived & terminally infested with the Spirit of the Living GOD!!! TODAY! Look down, think up, and say ‘Jesus, HELP ME! Save me! Fix me! Self-deceive me today and never go away... Place your Spirit within me, Jesus! Make the self-deception real until all I see is You! Rock me, Lord... and keep holdin on. Amen.’ or somethin like it.

j lee davis

spokane WA

99 Feb 22</font>

Hmmm...I don't think I've ever quite seen that approach before. So I guess the real reason for becoming a Christian all boils down to personal gain? Well, I guess I knew that already, but it's unusual to see someone who appears to be a Christian actually come out and boldly admit it like that. What is <i>really</i> astonishing is the fact that this person would unashamedly admit that it is all nothing but self-deception! Who says there's nothing new under the sun? :D

Emerald

<b>Edit note:</b> Editing to fix link.

Just because you don't believe in God, or says that "he sucks" doesn't mean you have the right to bashing Christianity. I take offense to that as Roman Catholic. You are so stupid that you should have post this thread in the Atheist category, not Christianity. I hate people that don't know what they are doing. And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.
I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

The next believe that you post, religious or scientific will be ripped apart by fangs-o-destruction. Brace yourself, my mind unleashed isn't a pretty site.


"In a fight go straight for the jugular." -- Me.

He is a hate monger because he sends gays to hell for being gay and that is just intolerance -- Shady_Reper.

Once again you don't know what you are talking about, the Bible states that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. It becomes a problem when you have gay sex, you can't go to hell for just being gay. Sexuall perference isn't a sin in God's eyes.

Curly,

Originally posted by thecurly1
Just because you don't believe in God, or says that "he sucks" doesn't mean you have the right to bashing Christianity. I take offense to that as Roman Catholic. You are so stupid that you should have post this thread in the Atheist category, not Christianity. I hate people that don't know what they are doing. And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.
I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

The next believe that you post, religious or scientific will be ripped apart by fangs-o-destruction. Brace yourself, my mind unleashed isn't a pretty site.


"In a fight go straight for the jugular." -- Me.

Interesting response. I think <b>Tiassa</b> would suggest that you might just be an <i>agent provocateur</i>, oui? Why do you entice Christians to violence against non-Christians? Is that what your religion is all about? Or are you simply doing your part to weed out the <i>tares</i>? Isn't that supposed to be the function of your Satan? If so, do you think he will appreciate your efforts on his behalf and reward you accordingly? Just curious...

Emerald

Tiassa, what is happening in Colorado and Oregon?

Oregon: In the late 1980's, a conservative Christian PAC formed, called the Oregon Citizens' Alliance (OCA). The original cause, as I recall, had something to do with Oregon's liberal abortion laws, and the curtailing or revocation thereof. In 1989 or so, a Christian parent objected to a book in the Springfield, Oregon, public library, entitled Heather Has Two Mommies. After civic officials determined that the contradiction of one religion's canonical values was insufficient cause to remove the book from circulation, the OCA set about changing the law. In 1990, the OCA fostered two successful measures in Corvallis and Springfield which made it illegal for the local governments to "endorse, encourage, or promote" homosexuality. Objectionable books were removed from the shelves.

Encouraged by this success, the OCA moved toward a statewide ballot measure, aimed at the 1992 general election. Known as Measure 9, the measure would have changed the Oregon state constitution to prohibit any government agency in Oregon from"endorsing, encouraging, or promoting" homosexuality. The implications of Measure 9 (M9) as written were enormous: Civil libertarians cited possible interpretations of the law that would allow the firing of state employees on grounds of suspsected homosexuality: teachers, police officers, firemen ... typing pools from around the state and local government offices .... The state would further be unable to prosecute anti-gay violence as a hate crime, and there would be some legal question as to whether a DA would be allowed to refute a superstitious, anti-gay defense, such as the threat one feels, because that state ballot measure said that gays commit 95% of child molestations (an unsupportable statistic thrown into the OCA's official literature for panic's sake). Can you imagine being evicted from your apartment because your roommate is of the same gender? The state cannot prosecute the wrongness of this without endorsing homosexuality as acceptable behavior. Schools would be obliged by M9's language to address homosexuality only when it came up from the students, and then further obliged to describe it as morally deviant, socially detrimental, and otherwise negative. Counselors facing students with confused sexual impulses would be obliged to directly discourage homosexuality as wrong. Libraries censored, civic events denied, and all because one group of Oregon Christians repeatedly manages at least 40% at the ballot box every damn year (there was one year, maybe two disparate years, in the 90's, when the OCA didn't dominate the electorate's attention). M9 failed in 1992 by a narrow margin; the OCA is repeatedly encouraged by their respectable showing at the ballot box. Scott Lively, of the OCA, published a book in which he attempted to establish modern homosexuals as the literal and current Nazi party. Phillip Ramsdell, of the OCA, published in the voter's guide a list of sexually-oriented terms which caused general revulsion and was quite effective in portraying the "sick" side of homosexuality until it was pointed out that heterosexuals like this stuff, too. The OCA in general has always maintained a goal to equate homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality (and necrophilia) in their public statements. They like to string the terms together in their ballot measures, which is part of why they fail.

* http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2538 is a thread from the Religious Debate Archives in which Bowser and I slugged it out on last year's OCA monster, which failed. The scariest thing is that the language hasn't changed that much; they keep rewording the scope of the effect in an effort to slip the same measure by the public. It should be noted that the OCA attempted to expand into Washington (WCA) and Idaho (ICA), but both chapters eventually failed for lack of public interest.

* http://www.oregoncitizensalliance.org

Colorado: Having not lived through Colorado in Colorado, I can give you only a sketch.

* In 1992, a group called Coloradon for Family Values, sponsored Amendment 2, almost identical in its language to OCA M9. Amendment 2 passed; as a constitutional amendment, it circumvented judicial review and became part of the judicial standard. Federal lawsuits were filed, injuctions granted, and the law suspended until it was eventually gutted in the federal courts.

* CFV founders (McCarty, I believe is the one I'm thinking of) are also organizers of the ill-fated Promise Keepers movement.

And then I've got a number of issues with the Republican Party in Colorado, which instructs its state senators in how to vote, at the stake of future campaign funds.

Side note: Of the whole debacle, one of the results has been that people now routinely sue to hold up public ballot measures. Where we see issues of the law taking away the presence of rights not otherwise suspended in the case of Amendment 2 and M9, part of Oregon's Christian response has been to sue all ballot measures with which they disagree. For instance, Oregon's Measure 16, the Right to Die. That one was held up in the courts, reaffirmed by the people in a separate election and held up in the courts some more on the strange grounds that granting a person the right to die was somehow unfair to that person. I've lost track, at present, of that measure.

But Oregon and Colorado are two places in which the 1990's witnessed a religious storm aimed toward moral governance. In Oregon, at least, the ugliness goes on.

Incidentally, I can't seem to locate Colorado for Family Values' website. Google and Lycos both, however, provide a plethora of the backlash.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa,

Originally posted by tiassa
Incidentally, I can't seem to locate Colorado for Family Values' website.

It appears they haven't yet moved into the 20th Century (let alone the 21st). Undoubtedly, computers and the internet are all part of an evil plot to destroy families. :rolleyes:

But they do have an address and phone number:

Colorado for Family Values
3709 Parkmoor Village Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80917

(719) 573 - 4229

Emerald

Originally posted by thecurly1

I hate people that don't know what they are doing.

As a Christian you should not hate anyone.

Interesting, the two on this forum who say they are Roman Catholic, seem to show hate towards non believer. Friends, witness the ones responsible for the Crusades and the inquisition. Ones who have not love but hate for others. I assure you not all Roman Catholics are like this, I know many who love others. Its the ones who don't that really detract from our Christian faith.

I ask you The curly and Lawdog, learn what love is, learn real Christian virtues. Do not turn Christianity into a bunch of laws. The two greatest commandments which Jesus taught were love the Lord your God, and Love you neighbour. I don't see evidence of this in your posts. I ask you to take some time to examine yourself. This is what I am taught at church. Don't be stubborn, find out who you really are in Christ Jesus. Be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Begin to really experience the Christian life.

I also know what the people at this post are saying when they say that Christians are always trying to find ways to make themselves think that they are hated by people around them. I find it annoying to. It is about time that Christians (not all of us included) quit sopping in a corner and experience the daily wonders of the Christian life. PRAISE GOD!!!

I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

What is your faith based on. The love of Jesus Christ or the hate of others to do not believe as you do. I do sincerely hope you answered to the first and not the former.

Thanks for your time. :)

I just keep hoping that they go away.

Were I CFV, I would add every hate mailer to the mailing list. That oughta teach 'em . But seriously, that might be it: can you imagine having to sort through that email mess? I bet keeping phone operators is tough enough.

And that mailroom ... not a chance I'd set foot in there.

It's only people's lives and livelihoods at stake: I can't imagine why anyone would be upset. :rolleyes:

It's the price of being an American, I guess.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

I'm clearing up my statement not to cover my ass but to clarify what I meant. When I get anxious about subjects, I the hands move faster than the brain if you catch my drift.

When I said, "I hate people that don't know what they are talking about." I meant hate in the scene of it agitates me when they don't know what they are talking about and proclaim their ideas as infallible and almighty. I didn't mean hate in the context of spite or malice. Actually I think of myself as a fairly inclusive and open minded person when it comes to a lot of subjects.

And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.It's nice of you to clear up the hate item, Curly, but what about this?

What you seem to think is that people are arbitrarily attacking Christianity. What, is there no merit behind the pattern of abusive behavior documented by the infidels?

So if Shady believes the sky is blue, will you tear that belief to shreds?

Or will you wait until Shady is advocating something which is either wrong, or the justifications for which are incorrect?

As it's written, it doesn't matter what that belief it: as it's written, if Shady says that he believes rape is wrong, you'll argue with him that it's right.

Bottom line: yes, it is possible to read through what someone writes until we reach what they're expressing. Strangely, though, we're only welcome to do that reading through if the result attributes something positive to the person. So the end result is that it is as unwise to assume the positive about the poster as it is to assume the negative. Left with a literal interpretation of what you're writing, Curly ... it's not encouraging, is it?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

This is my last post, everyone has to nit pick and take apart every statement. I would be curious if anyone has found the word, "figuratively" in their lexicon. I was obviously (or so I thought) talking about any religious or quasi-religious believes, not weather the retarded sky is blue or not. Don't reduce my statements to such triviality, because you know that wasn't what I was talking about.
Not everything is suppose to be take so damn literally, this is something the society has forgot in the past few decades. I cleared up my misinterpreted statement. The core subject of my original post was that he shouldn't go around bashing subjects, especially religion because he doesn't believe in them. I wasn't bashing but venting my anger on his unabaded, ripping into my religion which I find insulting. The statement that Shady_Reaper said was to be taken literally, not figuratively. I hope someone out there can understand what I was trying to express.

P.S. Deadwood, I don't need a bible study class in what Jesus Christ was about, I am well aware of this and think its arrogant of you to tell me what his lessons were.
Plus you are almost say that I and Lawdog are quasi-Christians and that we don't know what we are talking about. Even if I do hate someone, this doesn't necessarily sprout from a religious believe. You are using religion as a tool to further advance your dislike for my opinions. I would think as a true Christian you would have more common sense than that.
DON'T BOTHER REPLYING TO THIS POST, I WON'T BE ATTENDING THE CHRISTIANITY, OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SECTION OF SCIFORMS FOR QUITE A WHILE. EVERYONE IN HERE IS HYPOCRITICAL TO SOME EXTENT.

You already have seen my beliefsa that thewre is no god and if there is he sux. I posted it in the Christianity one because I thought it would generate some interecting responses.

Just to clarify what I wrote in that last post to everyone in the forum, I found what thecurly1 said rather serious. The screw you! in the subject header, and your so stupid comments as well as I hate anyone comments were rather serious. For any Christian who hates someone or says screw you to a non believer, I think that they should examine themselves as Christians. I would.

2 Corinthians ch 13 vs 5

5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Believing in Christ does not give us a right or an attitude to go about hating other people, nor is this taught in the Gospels. So I don't think it was arrogant of me to point out the two most important commandments of Love. thecurly and Lawdog, I am merely asking you to examine yourselves. Do you really love your neighbour? These people at the forums, I regard as neighbours, I would not wish to kill or hate them, I wish them and you all the best. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour or even believe in a God, I still do not find that a good enough reason to hate you or fight you. But as long as there is a Christianity forum at exosci I will hopefully continue to be able to post here so that you can all here my views.

The Shady Though, you may take the view that God does not exist and is mean and hateful. I consider the fact that after making fun of Him and you still being alive evidence of His love for you.

You already have seen my beliefsa that thewre is no god and if there is he sux. I posted it in the Christianity one because I thought it would generate some interecting responses.

It generated some interesting spelling too. :)

Lyndale No denomination of Christianity is supierior to the other. Put behind you this notion. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sister just as well as my prostestant, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostal brothers and sisters etc. I attend Roman Catholic chuch as well as Anglican (Chruch of England, Protestant) though the two forms of worship are different none are superior to the other. Do not hate your brother or sisters.

Tiassa

As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people.

May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well.

The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! :)

Thanks :)

Originally posted by Deadwood
Just to clarify what I wrote in that last post to everyone in the forum, I found what thecurly1 said rather serious. The screw you! in the subject header, and your so stupid comments as well as I hate anyone comments were rather serious. For any Christian who hates someone or says screw you to a non believer, I think that they should examine themselves as Christians. I would.

2 Corinthians ch 13 vs 5

5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Believing in Christ does not give us a right or an attitude to go about hating other people, nor is this taught in the Gospels. So I don't think it was arrogant of me to point out the two most important commandments of Love. thecurly and Lawdog, I am merely asking you to examine yourselves. Do you really love your neighbour? These people at the forums, I regard as neighbours, I would not wish to kill or hate them, I wish them and you all the best. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour or even believe in a God, I still do not find that a good enough reason to hate you or fight you. But as long as there is a Christianity forum at exosci I will hopefully continue to be able to post here so that you can all here my views.

The Shady Though, you may take the view that God does not exist and is mean and hateful. I consider the fact that after making fun of Him and you still being alive evidence of His love for you.



It generated some interesting spelling too. :)

Lyndale No denomination of Christianity is supierior to the other. Put behind you this notion. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sister just as well as my prostestant, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostal brothers and sisters etc. I attend Roman Catholic chuch as well as Anglican (Chruch of England, Protestant) though the two forms of worship are different none are superior to the other. Do not hate your brother or sisters.

Tiassa

As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people.

May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well.

The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! :)

Thanks :)

There is "ONLY ONE WAY", "ONE PATH",...THAT LEADS TO GOD. "ONE". NOT 2 OR MORE. That path is by the Son of God, Jesus. Only by every example that He gave, Only by every breath, that He breathed, Only by the love He taught,...will a man find the Lord, God.
Any side stepping to the aforementioned will lead to hell. If this is what you do or your religion, then you have been decieved and you are on the path to hell.
I hate the deception not the person.
Christian, means "Christ like". Any variance,...is against God.
Mary, budah, ...nor any other man will lead you to God.
Jesus said... I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, NO man commeth to the Father but by ME.
Do you not understand this. Or ...do you think Jesus made a mistake and forgot something....?

Lyndale.

May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well. Well, there's your 6/24/2001 contribution to this very topic:We/I should not hate no person. We do not approve of any religion, that does not follow the example thrue the Son of God. It seems to me that we went through this very issue in another thread.

* http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2870 is a starter.

We seem to have discussed, quite clearly, in To God be the Glory! the diffiuclties I have with your particular expressions. I see a post requesting more detail over there, so you'll find some more specific thoughts on that thread there.If you mean by preaching the Gospel, I see no problem with that. If you are to be saved, Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice will be accepted for atonement of sins. This is why Christians hold that this is the only way to be saved. No other path can lead to salvation, but believeing in the Messiah you will be justified. Such as here, where you basically declared that people are unfit for God's purposes as God made them. The implication being common to the notion of conversion, the purpose of evangelism and missionary work. Quite simply, the Christian declaration is that people--as God made them--are unfit. This undermines the entirety of salvation by making it a dog-and-pony show for God's amusement. To further this cruelty in the living world is persecutory.I must state that all of this leads to life. Our conflict is against the supernatural. Christians are called to this fight. We must fight the principalities of evil, the demons who's will is to bring suffering, and they have.To bring you suffering? That's not persecutory?Three statements reflecting my personality that you got totally wrong.

I was actually writing what another Muslim told me. About making myself feel better about Christian treatment of women thats news to me. How am I using other cultures? Tiassa, I am a lot different than what you think. Stop branding me as some person who loves other Christians and hates everyone else. You don't know me, you don't know what I'm like as a person, you bring these stupid conclusions to what I say. Put your crap onto someone else. You feel illl-represented by my words? Propagandized? Yet I'm only drawing conclusions, according to my usual method, from your own words.

And there's an even greater issue to address here: Like I noted to Lyndale: As I have advised Loone and Deadwood .... Lyndale is like many Christians who complain of persecution; that statement officially adds him to the list of people I've told that. His contradictions of persecution are more naked and apparent than yours.

And yes, Deadwood, I do see what's taking place. You'll find that I shall generally try to keep my nose out of that part of what you're posting; and while I'm aware that demonstration for my purposes is not the primary focus, I want you to know that I, at least, note and appreciate it. You will find enough flak on that side of the argument that I don't have a particular desire to pile it on, and nor will I be inclined to involve myself unless a specific issue compels me. But I would be the satan, then, to interfere in that half of the process without some obvious reason. But it would seem that we're seeing at least a couple of credibility issues in common, and that's a precious chance to throw a rope across the abyss, regardless of who's going to do the tightrope.The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! I'd take issue on specific detal regarding Paul, but I catch your drift so strongly here that I'm inclined to set that difference of interpretation aside.

So I wanted to offer these two basic notions:

* Persecution comes in the need to convert. It is inherent: the message is that one is unfit by the nature of their birth to satisfy the God who required that birth. It seems paradoxical, and overlooks the issues of the Christian house, whereby people become unfit by adopting and then abusing the word of God. In the meantime, the situation is changing enough at Sciforums that I'm inclined to simply watch that part of it for the time being. It does seem that, even if we're not coming together on certain points herein, we are at least seeing the same issues.

* My objection to Christians feeling persecuted is a broader one, and actually transcends the little snippets of your posts I've included here. Look at your fellow Christians at Sciforums, as I know you have been. And look out at your fellow Christians in your community. Perhaps the American roadshow comedy of stump evangelism is as hilarious and scary to Christians internationally as it is to domestic infidels. Here, though, it's frightening. Creation/Evolution, abortion, prayer in school--the common American experience is that almost everything one chooses to do will find some objection from Christianity. Scientific research has enough moral questions to answer about methodology without complicating the mix with the imposition of a single theology. That scientists don't bow to Christian ethical demands is publicly expressed here as persecutory. That the public won't eliminate the practice of abortion, and the focus of the pro-Choice movement on Christian objections is called persecutory. To not ban a book from a library because a Christian demands it is viewed as persecutory by many of the faith. I need more than my two hands to count the number of Christian-derived moral ballot measures put before Oregon in the 1990's, and that was merely by the time I left in '96. Yet Christians express a sense of persecution because the society will not declare homosexuality illegal. Or their silly pornography measures: two concurrent measures on the '96 ballot both attempted the same goal: to codify the US Supreme Court ruling on pornography, with much focus on child pornography. Two things were wrong with these measures: 1) They accomplished nothing but a restatement of the legal standard; 2) They split the ticket and both failed; the combined numbers from each--assuming disparate approval via the split ticket--would have passed one. (This last assumption, that the numbers would have passed a single ballot measure does not account for the possibility that it was the same 35% of the voting population that voted for both.) Yet after this failure, Christians in Oregon expressed a sense of persecution: that hatred for Christians compelled people to build a sinful society merely to spite Christians.

Okay, they're not the most basic notions in the world: They do, hopefully, explain the nature of the statement to Lyndale which you have questioned.

But there are new field conditions to observe: I would be morally remiss if I chose not to find out what happens next. Good luck in that, sir.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Lyndale

There is "ONLY ONE WAY", "ONE PATH",...THAT LEADS TO GOD. "ONE". NOT 2 OR MORE. That path is by the Son of God, Jesus.

No problem there.

Jesus said... I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, NO man commeth to the Father but by ME.

No problem here either.

Do you not understand this. Or ...do you think Jesus made a mistake and forgot something....?

Lyndale, I do not woship or pray to St Mary. She is blessed among women, but I only worship God. Lyndale, when was the last time you attended a church other than the one you go to? Was this church of a different denomination?

Am I deceived then to love all of my brothers and sisters? Am I deceived to love all peoples?

You see, all denominations are in agreeance on the black and white stuff. Its just the grey areas which divide. We all believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That God is a triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

To give an example the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox chuch are only seperated by three words. Only three words seperate them and yet there is hate between some of them, and excommunication between the two churches during some periods of time. I am protestant. I don't attend Mass at the Roman Catholic church but I do go and worship and pray with them.

In the words of one of my ministers. If you can't even bring yourself to go to another church, then you've got to examine yourself. At my church we are encouraged to attend other churches. Something you may not find in the US from what I've heard there is a lot of fighting between priests, ministers etc about other churches taking other peoples congregations. At least its not like that over here as far as I know.

Tiassa

Well, there's your 6/24/2001 contribution to this very topic:

That was actually Lyndales thread, not mine.

Such as here, where you basically declared that people are unfit for God's purposes as God made them. The implication being common to the notion of conversion, the purpose of evangelism and missionary work. Quite simply, the Christian declaration is that people--as God made them--are unfit. This undermines the entirety of salvation by making it a dog-and-pony show for God's amusement. To further this cruelty in the living world is persecutory.

It is actually because of Mankinds fall into sin, originally Mankind was created perfect, until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. However, God in all His grace provided us a way out. We need a sacrifice for our sins, just as the Old Testament tells us (Leviticus and Deutoronomy is a good source to read if you wish to look into this). This is why God sent his Son to save us. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is why we say that there is only one path, because He is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. :)

To bring you suffering? That's not persecutory?

Not totally sure what you meant, but suffering is part of the Christian life. This is why I don't complain.

Here, though, it's frightening. Creation/Evolution, abortion, prayer in school--the common American experience is that almost everything one chooses to do will find some objection from Christianity.

This is where it is hard for me to understand. Australia is a lot more easy going. I did do bible study in high school on a lunch time once a week, and you are allowed to pray at school. Muslims would pray on Friday, Christians could pray on wednesday and Friday morning which I didn't attend.

Scientific research has enough moral questions to answer about methodology without complicating the mix with the imposition of a single theology. That scientists don't bow to Christian ethical demands is publicly expressed here as persecutory. That the public won't eliminate the practice of abortion, and the focus of the pro-Choice movement on Christian objections is called persecutory. To not ban a book from a library because a Christian demands it is viewed as persecutory by many of the faith.

I think that scientists can research what they like. In fact, I'm thinking of donating my body to science when I die. I don't like abortion however, and I think if someone wants Euthanasia that is their choice and their entitled to it. Free will. I think that if the library wants to include Harry Potter into its bookshelf it can. I don't like the fact that people in the US can't pray in schools. Thats a bit silly. But I just want to make clear that I don't see it as persecution, this is why I don't want to be seen in this light and branded as one of those Christians that go around looking for persecution and when they can't find it, they go and blame some book in the library.

If I attended a school that wouldn't let you pray, I just wouldn't. As a Christian I am not above civil laws. However, there are certain exceptions, like proclaiming Christ. If their was a law saying you couldn't be Christian, I would not be abliged to follow that law.


Yet Christians express a sense of persecution because the society will not declare homosexuality illegal. Or their silly pornography measures: two concurrent measures on the '96 ballot both attempted the same goal: to codify the US Supreme Court ruling on pornography, with much focus on child pornography.

If you want to be homosexual, that is your choice. I once had a friend who was homosexual. If you want to view pornography, it is your choice again. I'm not neccessarily going to make it illegal, however, just as environmentalist groups can educate people about the effects of pollution, why can't I tell people that doing these things is wrong? However, I won't go around condemning, thats not what I'm here(in a general sense) for.

Thanks

Deadwood--

That was actually Lyndales thread, not mine.Whoops. My bad. Sorry.It is actually because of Mankinds fall into sin, originally Mankind was created perfect, until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. However, God in all His grace provided us a way out. We need a sacrifice for our sins, just as the Old Testament tells us (Leviticus and Deutoronomy is a good source to read if you wish to look into this). This is why God sent his Son to save us. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is why we say that there is only one path, because He is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. Bottom line: people who do not have the faith must change so that they do have the faith. God apparently charges interest on the "blessing" of life, for they are unworthy of him in the form that he has made them. I am, actually, familiar with Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It works fine when you're lost in the desert, but has less relevance in modern "civilization."Not totally sure what you meant, but suffering is part of the Christian life. This is why I don't complain. In the context of your question: May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? This is where it is hard for me to understand. Australia is a lot more easy going. I did do bible study in high school on a lunch time once a week, and you are allowed to pray at school. Muslims would pray on Friday, Christians could pray on wednesday and Friday morning which I didn't attend. Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous here. The thing is that we have a history in this country of having forced children to pray. It took a Supreme Court decision to stop this. Ever since, Christians have blamed everything negative in American society on the removal of prayer from public school.I think that scientists can research what they like. In fact, I'm thinking of donating my body to science when I die.I do wish someone would tell the Christians in this country that very idea. Cancer-fighting drugs were banned in this country for several years because they could be mixed with another drug to cause a miscarriage. Science in this country often has to deal with Christian-centered objections.I don't like abortion however, and I think if someone wants Euthanasia that is their choice and their entitled to it. Nobody likes abortion. The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to change the economic patterns that create its need. In this country, however, the Christian prescription is abstinance. Objections to sex ed, condom distribution programs, birth control information, and abortion. Somehow American Christians have this idea that if you tell kids not to have orgasms, they won't. Of euthanasia--in Oregon, Christians assert that you are a victim if you're granted your right to die. I don't get it myself, but then again, a lifetime of that very sentiment keeps me well-distanced from Christianity.But I just want to make clear that I don't see it as persecution, this is why I don't want to be seen in this light and branded as one of those Christians that go around looking for persecution and when they can't find it, they go and blame some book in the library. That's well and fine and the message is received. Understand, though, that in the US, to disagree with a Christian is apparently to persecute them. If I attended a school that wouldn't let you pray, I just wouldn't.As long as we're clear: you're allowed to pray, you're just not allowed to make it an official school function--prayer clubs, Bible clubs, pre-game public prayers, &c.As a Christian I am not above civil laws. However, there are certain exceptions, like proclaiming Christ. If their was a law saying you couldn't be Christian, I would not be abliged to follow that law.And to be exceptionally clear on this: In the United States, Christians are the loudest advocates of censorship. Into the 1970's, you could get arrested in this country for practicing certain religions: Zsusanna Budapest was prosecuted in California for being a witch. Decency laws in this country generally conform to Christian standards if they conform to any religious standard at all, and most of them do.If you want to be homosexual, that is your choice. I once had a friend who was homosexual. If you want to view pornography, it is your choice again. I'm not neccessarily going to make it illegal, however, just as environmentalist groups can educate people about the effects of pollution, why can't I tell people that doing these things is wrong? However, I won't go around condemning, thats not what I'm here(in a general sense) for. Well enough. The point actually was that Christians felt persecuted for blowing their own politics out their ass. It was just a further example of what we've come to expect of Christianity in this country.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

If your going to respond to what I have said, then at least do it with truth. I did not complain about anything. I stated fact, only.
It is no wonder why there isnt more participation. You twist and manipulate everyones words. You dance around the truth and manipulate it with your twisted lies.

Keep up the "bad" work tiassa...you make your master proud.

and...to the other blind one....Your religion is an occult. Mary is not the path to the Father. Take your whole religion and compare it to this....Out of all you do inside your buildings of evil...e.i. count beads, worship mary, worship statues, call a "man" father...and the rest of the evil you do......did Jesus do any of these?....You know the answer is NO.................then why in the world do you do it. Don't you see the deception that as blinded millions? I put the question to you again...."If Jesus didnt do it, then why do you do it, did He forget something when he was on earth...did He make a mistake"....

I dare you to answer that last couple of questions.

Lyndale.

"Words twisted, come out of the mouth of Liars".

Lyndale:

I did not complain about anything. I stated fact, only.Oh, well ... in that case, I should ignore your lament, which I accidentally attributed to Deadwood?Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe.I would assert here that your anger is misplaced: people don't adopt a random urge to counter Christianity; that urge arises from the need to get its tyranny off one's back. What religion do atheists "hate" the most? You might as well ask What religion meddles with atheism the most? I'm quite sure the atheists would leave Christianity alone if the religion would lighten up on everyone. Someone asked here recently about the focus on Christianity: atheists are just as snappy toward Islamic or Jewish or Wiccan pressures, except that these pressures just don't come up as often. The determination of the Christian population to either actively work against other people in the world, or to sit idly by and permit this denunciation of people, or to support those denunciations at a ballot box is disheartening at least, sickening at par. So if you think atheists "hate" Chrisitans the most, have you ever wondered why?It is no wonder why there isnt more participation. So you're blaming Sciforums' growth on me? Maybe I should ask Dave for a job.You twist and manipulate everyones words. No, not everyone's. Very few people's, in fact. If you can't see the ramifications of the things you say, perhaps you'd better give more thought to your words. Just because it sounds like a neato thing to say doesn't mean it works; little manipulation, if any, is needed: you posit such irresponsible theology that all I need do is point out the potential results. Since anything short of an outright faith declaration shines less brightly than you would like, perhaps you should polish the actual logical rhetoric instead of flinging out burning gobs of theological crap that disappear to smoke before they reach the target.You dance around the truth and manipulate it with your twisted lies.Everyone's a critic. Hey, if you think you understand my choreography, demonstrate it.Keep up the "bad" work tiassa...you make your master proud.Ooh. Is that supposed to hurt? More directly, is that supposed to mean anything?

Lyndale, I can honestly say, based on observation of the immediate moment and the state of your posts, that you have no idea what's taking place around you. Of course I expect you to disagree with me; your faith obliges you to think me inferior. But you should know that you're proving one of my longer-standing points right now, and not necessarily by what you're saying to me directly. Think carefully, look closely. If Jesus weeps, it's because he's tired of bleeding for such senselessness as you preach.

--Tiassa :cool:

even in your own reply ....you state the obviouse...twisting of words.....
first you say you do and in the next breath you say you dont...
Can you even tell...when your comming and going?

Lyndale.:confused:

you state the obviouse...twisting of words..... As I said, demonstrate the method.

--Tiassa :cool:

Originally posted by tiassa
As I said, demonstrate the method.

--Tiassa :cool:

All anyone has to do is read above...it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...nor does it take an essay of hot hair...either...understand?


Lyndale.

All anyone has to do is read above...it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...nor does it take an essay of hot hair...either...understand? So hair jokes aside ... are you assuming that all people share your contextual interpretation? This is something that I accuse among the negative effects of a priori religious faith. The reason I say to demonstrate the method is so that you're absolutely clear on what you're complaining about, and not sitting smugly in the false assumptiion that we all know what you're talking about.

Get it?

--Tiassa :cool:

and...to the other blind one....

Emerald, Tiassa HELP!!! I think I'm next on her hit list on who to call satan!!!

Your religion is an occult.

A protestant, who would of thought?

Mary is not the path to the Father.

Did I say that ST Mary is? No!!!

Take your whole religion and compare it to this....Out of all you do inside your buildings of evil...e.i. count beads, worship mary, worship statues, call a "man" father...and the rest of the evil you do......did Jesus do any of these?....

Hmmm, I don't count beads (whatever that means?), I don't worship St Mary, afterall, I did tell Lyndale I only worship my Lord and Saviour (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), I wouldn't even bow down to a statue, call a "man" father, so what am I supposed to call my dad, by his first name? Even St Paul saw Timothy as his son

Here are the references just for you.

1 Corinthians ch 4 vs 17

17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

Phillipians ch 2 vs 22

22
But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.

1 Timothy ch 1 vs 2

2
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Timothy ch 1 vs 18 (two references in the same chapter :) )

18
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,

2 Timothy ch 1 vs 1-3.

1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,
2
To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3
I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.

I would also like to note that Paul refers to those who served God before him as his fore fathers.

You know the answer is NO.................

Actually, I'm sure Jesus would have called his Earthly father Joseph abba(dad)or a more formal father. but I see that you are getting at people calling a Priest Father Joe or Father Pete. I doh't think there's anything wrong with this. They are like a spiritual father as Paul was to Timothy.

then why in the world do you do it.

WHO IS TO SAY I DO???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roman Catholics may do stuff like this, but I do not include myself.

God loves Roman Catholics just as well as Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostals etc

I will give an example. I don't know exactly when this happened, probably 3-7 years ago. Not too sure. But a very spiritual woman from our church (anglican, church of england, Protestant etc) went to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure but I think God would have told her to go, my mum didn't tell me all of the background. However, when she was in Yugoslavia, she was present at one of the visions of St Mary. My mum (not the woman by the way) told me that she said that all of the little children as soon as they saw her ran straight over to her. the vision of St Mary then said ( I can't say the context but this is what my mum told me) that it would be brother against brother ( this is in Yugoslavia). This prophecy has come to pass fulfilled though I'm not sure if it has been fully fulfilled as their is still things going on in Yugoslavia. But this vision involved more than one person, including children running over. The woman said that it was just beautiful, when she appeared seeing all of the children running over.

Now, she came back to Australia, and some time later was told to go and join a Roman catholic church. Any Roman catholic church. and she has been obedient. even when I asked her ( I didn't know at the time that she was the woman) which church she went to, she was kind of hush hush, but she knew that I was involved with the Roman Catholic church.

You see Lyndale to judge people is not a good thing. you call me blind, you call me deceived. Yet I do not do the things which you have said. Except I don't mind calling a Priest, minister, pastor etc father, it is a sign of respect. Even people in old testament times when they met an angel called the angel lord. See Genesis. It is a sign of respect. I ask you to learn some respect, stop judging people by what little you know of them. all I did was say I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and say I worship with them, and suddenly I am deceived.

If people want t