View Full Version : WHy God Sucks


Shady_Reaper
06-20-01, 08:31 PM
There are many reasons god sucks here are a few of them feel free to post your own reasons.
1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

Lyndale
06-20-01, 11:37 PM
1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

In response to the above...

1. He does exist
2. What kind of name is shady reaper.
3. He did it because we are His greatest creation and because of His holiness and purity...unfortunatly He felt that because of the great corruption of sin...He also felt that it would take His greatest gift/love to redeem man.....even you.
4. He's the creator....His right.
5. He makes no one kill no one...we have free will...just as you've choosen your ignorant path to love sin more than God...He will not make you love Him....free will.
6. What is contrary to His nature is sin/evil.
7. The world will not end...only evil will end.
8. When an unsaved man tries to understand God, without doing it thrue His Son....satan causes that man to hate (like you), satan causes deception (like you do)....etc.
9. Its only boring to the ignorant and the lost...like you.
10. If your referring to science...science proves with every archeological dig....the bible to be even more true...not once ...not one time....have they ever prove otherwise....(excuse spelling).
11. Its wrong to kill babies...duh!....and by the way how many have you feed?

Lyndale

"What comes out your mouth lies in your heart".

Rambler
06-20-01, 11:45 PM
you wrote:
"If your referring to science...science proves with every archeological dig....the bible to be even more true...not once ...not one time...."

Name 2 I think 1 will be a stretch but you seem pretty certain so go ahead and name them. Or if that's too hard name 1 scientific study/proof that would even hint that your god is more then a figment of your imagination or at best a myth.

You also said:
"have they ever prove otherwise....(excuse spelling)."

The claims are being made by christains hence the burden of proof lies with you lot.

Shady_Reaper
06-21-01, 10:11 AM
1. that's my opinion and I can have it and it will stay that way until you can prove otherwise without using the bible or other fictional stories
2. but i am not actually a shady reaper where as god is supposedly a god
3. i think if he sat down and thought about it he could have come up with a better way
4. just cause you invent a game doesn't give you the right to constantly make up new rules whenever the hell you please
5. ever heard of manifest destiny or a holy war
6. God is just mad that he never got any
7. fine then he will be responsible for the end evil
8. But god talked to noah did he hate and have deception after talking to him
9. no it's only boring to people who know what entertainment is
10. I was mostly refering to things like evolution or say that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth
11. But they are not babies till they are born did you ever think that god put abortion into his manifest destiny doesn't he decide when people live and die mostly so wouldn't he decide if he wanted an unborn fetus dead or just a clump of cells. I have fed none that's not my job I watch out for myself how about god watches out for his " Children"

KneD
06-21-01, 10:25 AM
I don't believe in any god too.

But not believing in a god doesn't give you the right to talk about others religion the way you do...

Other people believe in a God, and you can't say something about it until you really know what the religion is all about.

And probably you don't know where it's all about, else you wouldn't say such stupid things as:
"He makes people kill other people."

Do something else when you want to f*ck someone, but not with their religion.
And when will you do it, don't do it with such bad motivations and opinions.

You're sick, and you don't know where you're talking about.
Go do your homework Shady_reaper.

Cris
06-21-01, 12:50 PM
Hi Shady, welcome to sciforums.

So here are some alterations/adjustments/corrections to your suggestions.

The title of the topic indicates that you assume a god exists since you have assigned him a positive attribute, i.e. ability to suck, and he would have to exist to be able to do that. Perhaps a better title would have been ‘Why Christianity Sucks’, because their god is really just a concept of fiction.


1. He doesn't exist That is indeed the most credible conclusion based on what we know however you can’t prove it. So you have made an unsupported claim in the same way that Christians make unsupported claims when they say a god does exist.


2. What kind of name is god for a god This is just pure arrogance on the part of Christians and in fact by any mono-theist religion. It is the idea that there is only one god so the name and the entity become the same. It is of course insulting to everyone else in the world who support poly-theistic concepts.


3.He let his son face a horrible death Yes very bizarre and fully consistent with many other biblical macabre and violent allegations.


4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose Yes the mark of the true evil tyrant.


5. He makes people kill other people Not sure what you had in mind here but certainly at the time of the Crusades Christians felt quite justified in murdering innocent people if they refused to convert to Christianity.


6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want Ah the moral high ground. This is largely based on feelings of guilt experienced by pious Christians – personal pleasure being not in their god’s best interest.


7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world Basic sales tactic to make you buy early before it is too late.


8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house Not sure what you had in mind here – but certainly many fundamentalists are dangerous to society and perhaps should be incarcerated.


9.His book is the most boring book ever written There are certainly many other far more enjoyable books of fiction available.


10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement Yes probably the greatest evil advanced by Christianity. Christianity can only survive if its followers remain ignorant of truth and new knowledge. Any instigative thinking would threaten the established rule of as totalitarian regime such as Christianity.


11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions Oh and many other cruelties. If such a god truly loved and wanted to care for humanity he could have created a far better environment. Christians claim that their god is a personal god, and that he cares for each individual. But there are plenty of incidents where people have prayed very hard in moments of dire need, only to suffer terrible agonies and death.

Cris

Shady_Reaper
06-21-01, 02:45 PM
Cris that was great and humurous which was the point of this post not to be a jerk and totally denounce other peoples rerligion they are allowed to believe whatever they want it's in the first ammendment. I hope other people understand t6his as a joke and their own jokes or reasons that god sucks to it.

Shady_Reaper
06-21-01, 02:49 PM
I wish i knew where I was talking about Kned. Do you know where your talking about? And why is it that no one gets he makes people kill other people I am talking about manifest destiny, jihads, and holy wars( like the crusades).

Shady_Reaper
06-21-01, 02:53 PM
This is a new reason why god sucks


He is a hate monger because he sends gays to hell for being gay and that is just intolerance

Tiassa
06-22-01, 02:56 PM
KneD:
And probably you don't know where it's all about, else you wouldn't say such stupid things as:
"He makes people kill other people."

Do something else when you want to f*ck someone, but not with their religion.
And when will you do it, don't do it with such bad motivations and opinions. Simply:

1) Read the Old Testament. God makes his chosen people kill a whole lot of other people. In the modern day, certain murderers still feel compelled to cite God, and to make arguments justifying themselves no less coherent than the babblings in defense of Inquisitions, Witch Trials, whipping carts, &c.

2) The exceptional hypocisy of your words is jaw-dropping. Christianity fucks with everyone. Not just their religions, not just their manner of living, but their very lives. Oh, poor Christians: don't lord your religion over the people like in Oregon and Colorado; don't doubt God by insisting that someone needs to change from what God made them. Furthermore, what's so bad about the motivation of sparing the world of superstitious grief?

Lyndale

Such hateful words! I don't see Shady exercising hate, except perhaps toward a God most deserving of it; if this is how God chose to interact with Shady, then Shady's opinions are valid. And can you ever do better than, "Did not, did too!"? Really, all you've accomplished is a jealous, bratty restatement of your faith (I would cite a specific point here, but the whole thing reeks of it). As far as I can tell, the only reason you think you're right is because you decided to believe it. I admit, it's a lot easier and more expedient a path than actually figuring out what it is you're believing. And you're right: disagreeing with you is so Satanically deceptive :rolleyes:

Come on, guys: people have just spilled it in the short form--Why God Sucks in as direct of sentences as possible; this seemingly harsh approach is sometimes necessary, since y'all seem to get lost in the more detailed rhetoric. Certainly you can comphrehend what they're saying well enough to do better than that?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Stretch
06-23-01, 09:49 AM
Hiya Cris ...

Been busy, nice to be back. Thanks for "religiously" (pardon the pun) stating the obvious!

Take care

Lyndale
06-23-01, 08:19 PM
Cris, Tiassa and People like you.

What is a Christian?

The word Christian, means “Christ like”. Which means...to be a mirror image of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Unfortunately, there are many who say, “I am a Christian” but are not.

I would like to talk about 3 types of people in this world...the Deceived, Tares and Christians.

The first, the Deceived. In other words those that know not God. Just as there is a God there is also the adversary Satan and his fallen angels. They go about creating deception in all hearts that know not God. God is a package deal...with one comes the other. Think not, that Satan and the fallen , sit around twiddling their thumbs. They whisper in all hearts, spreading lies, deceit, twisted truths, pretend to be images, that people worship or put their hopes in (i.e. mary, aliens). Give thoughts of the past to make people think reincarnation. These are just a few examples. There are many more. Many. Think about this...If Satan is...what religion/faith would He try to make mankind hate the most? Obviously, the one that was the correct path to God. Right? Now think what is the correct path to God? The bible says... quoting Jesus...”I am the way, the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me”. So, Jesus being the correct path and if a follower is called a Christian.........is Christianity the most hated religion? ....think about it.
Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe.

The second one is the “Imitator”. Bible describes these People as “Tares”. It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.
This causes problems to those who know not God. The unbeliever sees nothing but contradiction and in turn, labels them all bad. This is terrible too because we true believers should be better examples, stand out more then we do and most important...die to ourselves, live Christ’s example and love God with all our hearts. This is our free choice...we make it willingly and the only way a unbeliever can understand this is...to follow “ALL” the teachings of Jesus. Most don’t do it. Some think they do it. Others do it and fall each day but never give up.

Third a true Christian...This is a person who learned the true meaning of Sin and understands the conclusion of it and thou he as accepted the Son of God as His personal savior from this conclusion. He falls short of being worthy daily.

Which are you?
Lyndale

Shady_Reaper
06-24-01, 02:53 AM
Lyndale I am right. If what you say about SAtan is true than all the christians are the decieved. They are the ones who hate all other beliefs which would mean that christians are only the wrong ones. You know what I think it's great for something to get buy pretending to be something else we all do that we have our public face and our private I just love it when someone comes to take a bite out of me and they suddenly realize i'm a fake. AS for the true christians they are guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. Pride. Show me someone with more pride than a cristian and i'll show you god.

Lyndale
06-24-01, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
Lyndale I am right. If what you say about SAtan is true than all the christians are the decieved. They are the ones who hate all other beliefs which would mean that christians are only the wrong ones. You know what I think it's great for something to get buy pretending to be something else we all do that we have our public face and our private I just love it when someone comes to take a bite out of me and they suddenly realize i'm a fake. AS for the true christians they are guilty of one of the seven deadly sins. Pride. Show me someone with more pride than a cristian and i'll show you god.

We/I should not hate no person. We do not approve of any religion, that does not follow the example thrue the Son of God. I did not come to take a bite out of anyone. I came to make sure you were properly informed of what a christian is and what a christian isn't. As for your last comment,...pride, lies, deceit, etc. effect's all people...there are the forgiven and the unforgiven...and no this isn't a license to sin.

NOTE: To further prove the hate factor, concerning "satan makes people hate christians the most"....read..."The Bible is bullshi*" in this christian forum...it also proves my point. Just as you did Shady.

Lyndale.

spencer
06-24-01, 05:37 PM
Lyndale, you describe Tares as follows:

The second one is the “Imitator”. Bible describes these People as “Tares”. It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.

I would argue this:
The various Christian institutions produce nothing (other than more beleivers)
They steal nutrients from the wheat (i.e. the various churches rely on the contribution of it's members and government tax exemption)
They cause the owner problems (the small vocal minority of christians are constantly trying to tell the rest of us how we can and should live through coersion, legislation, and violence)

Also, Christians are always speaking about we all have free will in the eyes of God. I would equate your type of free will to this...you can disagree with me (i.e. not accept the word of God as truth), but then I'll torture you for as long as I can (i.e. sending one to hell).

Next, you say that it is wrong to kill babies (duh), but I remember a few passages in the Old Testament where God directly and specifically commanded his believers to kill non-believers, including and especially their children...so I guess it's ok when you are commanded by God to kill babies.

Finally you say the Bible is truth, so then you would agree to the following "Truths":
1. (Lev. 11:10) Eating Shellfish is an abomination
2. (Lev. 25:44) Owning slaves is allowed by God, provided they are from another state.
3. (Ex. 21:7) Selling one's daughter into slavery is sacntioned by God
4. (Ex.35:2) Working on the Sabath is an offense punishable by death, in God's eyes.

Sorry, my study of the Bible is limited, but I'm sure I could come up with more. I'm sure you will now claim I am Satan and that no one should believe my lies, but it seems a little reasonable that people would be resistant to beleifs that take the above into account. I think that Christians have some beliefs and sometimes participate to better their communities, but when you refuse to allow respect for anyone else's beliefs it becomes difficult to appreciate those things.

Shady_Reaper
06-25-01, 12:36 AM
Lyndale since everyone hate the KKK and nazis and other hate mongers does that mean Satan is doing it and that means hating blacks, jews, and homosexuals will send you to heaven. And why doesn't god have a problem with incest because that is really wrong. Also I would like to say that Christians need to get over the bible as a true story even the fricken pope has said it is not true it is just a book to teach lessons much like a book of fables full of ficticious stories to illustrate a point. The pope the head of all this crap has admitted the bible is ficticious. So get over the freakin bible you bible freaks

Lyndale
06-25-01, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by spencer
Lyndale, you describe Tares as follows:


I would argue this:
The various Christian institutions produce nothing (other than more beleivers)
They steal nutrients from the wheat (i.e. the various churches rely on the contribution of it's members and government tax exemption)
They cause the owner problems (the small vocal minority of christians are constantly trying to tell the rest of us how we can and should live through coersion, legislation, and violence)

Also, Christians are always speaking about we all have free will in the eyes of God. I would equate your type of free will to this...you can disagree with me (i.e. not accept the word of God as truth), but then I'll torture you for as long as I can (i.e. sending one to hell).

Next, you say that it is wrong to kill babies (duh), but I remember a few passages in the Old Testament where God directly and specifically commanded his believers to kill non-believers, including and especially their children...so I guess it's ok when you are commanded by God to kill babies.

Finally you say the Bible is truth, so then you would agree to the following "Truths":
1. (Lev. 11:10) Eating Shellfish is an abomination
2. (Lev. 25:44) Owning slaves is allowed by God, provided they are from another state.
3. (Ex. 21:7) Selling one's daughter into slavery is sacntioned by God
4. (Ex.35:2) Working on the Sabath is an offense punishable by death, in God's eyes.

Sorry, my study of the Bible is limited, but I'm sure I could come up with more. I'm sure you will now claim I am Satan and that no one should believe my lies, but it seems a little reasonable that people would be resistant to beleifs that take the above into account. I think that Christians have some beliefs and sometimes participate to better their communities, but when you refuse to allow respect for anyone else's beliefs it becomes difficult to appreciate those things.

Your reply shows you did not understand what I said.

Lyndale
06-25-01, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
Lyndale since everyone hate the KKK and nazis and other hate mongers does that mean Satan is doing it and that means hating blacks, jews, and homosexuals will send you to heaven. And why doesn't god have a problem with incest because that is really wrong. Also I would like to say that Christians need to get over the bible as a true story even the fricken pope has said it is not true it is just a book to teach lessons much like a book of fables full of ficticious stories to illustrate a point. The pope the head of all this crap has admitted the bible is ficticious. So get over the freakin bible you bible freaks

We do not hate no one...we hate the sin. The only way to heaven is through the Son of God...Jesus. Incest is wrong. The Pope is a leader of an occult. They do not seek heaven through the Son of God. This is the only thing He is the head of ....a clear path to deception. This is a large group of tares.<remember the meaning of Tares?
Sin is anything contrary, to the nature of God and before you go posting what is contrary or not ...concerning the nature of God...at least find out what it is or isn't through the Son. Otherwise your attempts are futile.

Lyndale

Shady_Reaper
06-25-01, 12:00 PM
so you are saying that the occult who weilds the bible as their only weapon and basicly created the bible and thus the story of the son are wrong because they don't care about jesus. Well what happened to all the people before jesus. did they all just go to hell. And why don't we pronounce it hesus?Well since satan cause hate then we hate the sin of the KKK etc. because of satan. And that means that sinning is the way into heaven. SO I call out to all who will listen sin, sin to your hearts content, sinning is the only way to heaven. If you want to go to hell be an upstanding model citizen and worship jesus and god and all that crap

Shady_Reaper
06-25-01, 12:03 PM
Yes incest is wrong that is my point. But Adam and eve had children who did they have children with? Their brothers sisters. and evn after all that inbreeding their came a great flood and noah was the only and his family was all that was left more incest right their. according to the bible we are the product of thousands of years of inbreeding.

Tiassa
06-25-01, 10:11 PM
Lyndale: I'll keep it brief, as I've noted you've begun resorting to the one-liner: "You don't understand!" But some effort is required: If I choose to keep it so brief that there was no text to post, I will have matched your nothing with my nothing, and that's a dumb way to have a debate. Oh, that's right ... I forgot, nobody's supposed to disagree with you. :rolleyes:
The first, the Deceived. In other words those that know not God. Just as there is a God there is also the adversary Satan and his fallen angels. So what exactly is it with you Christians and your Devil? In two thousand years of thinking really really hard about it, the collective force of the Christian sacrificed intellect has produced exactly zero in terms of viable philosophical resolutions. At least when Christians argue Creationism, they have one or two standard arguments before they have to resort to, "It's too complicated!"

So why don't you establish for us, once and for all, so that we may understand, exactly what purpose the Devil serves in exactly the following context:

* Christians assert the perfect knowledge of God--that is, God knows all; if you disagree with this perfect knowledge, we can end the discussion here.
* Christians assert the immutable will of God--that is, God does not make mistakes; if you disagree with this immutable will, we can end the discussion here.

1) Will the Devil be redeemed? (Something about Jesus and compassion? What's Jesus' limit on salvation?)
2) What is the extent of the Devil's authority? (Does he not, at least, have God's permission?)
3) Why does God not stop (defeat) the Devil? (What, as if God couldn't if He so wished?)
4) Why does God permit, at the very least--though possibly endorse or even commission--the Devil's work? (What purpose does this serve?)
5) Is God directly responsible for evil? (Consider the above.)

The truth of the matter is that by the rules the Christians have chosen by the setting of the Canon make the Devil as described for most of history quite impossible. The Devil is a dramatic tool at worst, a scapegoat at best.

If the Devil operates, he does so with God's full authority; the Devil must necessarily be in good standing (we need not even consider Job, such is the manner of the argument, but there's that, too, in case you try to claim that it's not in the Bible that the Devil has good standing); God, therefore, is directly responsible for evil, which makes the Devil into God's flak-man, and one might wonder that the guy's a little upset because look at the wounds he takes for existing as God created him.

The "Fall" of the Devil contributes here, too: God foresaw this rebellion, and deemed it necessary to the equation. The Devil behaves exactly as God wants and requires him to. If evil is evil, and should not be, then God has created it and put it into the Universe intentionally. To blame the Devil is the inability of the faithful to consider that God wants it this way. If the Devil is tempting you, it's because God demands that he do. Yes, you specifically. For nothing happens in this Universe, as I understand it, without God's say-so.

Or does the Devil exist outside God's authority? Is it possible that something exists in this Universe that transcends God's will, escapes His power?
hink about this...If Satan is...what religion/faith would He try to make mankind hate the most? Obviously, the one that was the correct path to God. Right? Now think what is the correct path to God? The bible says... quoting Jesus..."I am the way, the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by me". So, Jesus being the correct path and if a follower is called a Christian.........is Christianity the most hated religion? ....think about it. You've missed an option, and I think Emerald may have presented something quite like this before. So the Devil hates God and wishes to obscure the path. How best to do this? Well, dressing up as a virgin-born sorcerer and political commentator seems to have worked. Many of your fellow Christians at Sciforums claim that we pagans hate not you but God; this is probably true in the sense that we choose not to hate people. So if it's about hating God, how better to do that than to take away from him the apples (so to speak) of his eye? What happens if Satan leads the flock to the dark side? How better to do that than to create an obligatory religion, target it at the least educated and therefore most superstitious people in society (we should note here that Jesus was not working to attract the social elite, the academics, or the rich) such as the uneducated homeless, the social refuse, and those ostracized by their illness. What happens, then, when the sum effect of that religion is the outright defiance of God's commandments? Think of all the killing and hatred that Christians have sponsored throughout history: is this really what God intended? What ever happened to Thou shall not kill? (Lawdog is excepted here, since we already know that his answer is, at best, to plead apathy.) What about coveting your neighbors? What, are American Christians going to blame Manifest Destiny on the Deists? (Did you know that a law existed on the books of Tacoma, Washington, until the 1990's that may still be intact that makes it illegal to sell spirits to a person of indigenous American descent? Somehow, I don't see the Deists giving much of a rip about how much a Native drinks; nor do I recall that fierce Deist heritage of writing useless blue laws. I guarantee you this is a holdover of the temperance and prohibition movements driven by evangelical Christianity.) What the hell wasn't covetous about Manifest Destiny?
Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe. I would advise that you to check out page 9 of Crumbling the foundations of Christianity, in which your fellow Christian Lawdog threatens a culture with extinction(6/9/2001); and later on (page 10, 6/11/2001) when the Dog endorses murder in the name of Jesus. After two thousand years of murder, it seems that Christians still don't get it the way they're supposed to. That's all well and fine for those who know they're imperfect and expect such imperfections, but in the meantime the Christian heart is callous toward the dead. It seems that human life is only reserved to Christian life. If this was a rare thing, and had not two millennia of exemplary history, such a collapse of the thought process would not worry me as much. We know that Christians who bomb medical facilities and shoot doctors aren't following the Bible, but they're right in there with the most glaring trends of Christian faith. We know that men who beat their wives aren't practicing what Jesus said, but what's up with the fact that this still isn't clear? What, is there nothing to be done about it? Are you all just ... waiting around for God to show up and handle it? You, Lyndale, who accuse people of hate, something about a beam in your eye! You would feel persecuted because of something you chose to believe? You would feel persecuted because people are less than comfortable with the brands of violence, hatred, and division you choose to believe in? Your faith is your choice, Lyndale. So is the kicking around of people that has traditionally come with it. As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people. What about it don't you understand that God made these people as they are? Who the hell are you to question God's motives in this Universe? What, does the Almighty have a tech-support desk you can e-mail to tell Him about your perceived bugs in His program? Or do you proceed on faith in your own mortal judgement and try to correct what He has done wrong?

What is it about other people that Christians find so unacceptable? Yet after two thousand years of declaring that people are not fit to exist as God made them, Christians dare feel persecuted when people talk about what's wrong with the religion?

Get it together: understand your faith so that everything doesn't feel so much like the hatred you're so determined to find.
The second one is the "Imitator". Bible describes these People as "Tares". It describes two plants, one wheat and the other tares. Wheat produce a product, provides substance and as a purpose. Tares, look like wheat and grow like wheat but produce no substance and has no purpose. It only steals the nutrients from the wheat, takes up useless space, only causes the owner problems. Bottom line is, a Tare causes nothing but problems for the wheat, worker and owner.

This causes problems to those who know not God. The unbeliever sees nothing but contradiction and in turn, labels them all bad. This is terrible too because we true believers should be better examples, stand out more then we do and most important...die to ourselves, live Christ’s example and love God with all our hearts. This is our free choice...we make it willingly and the only way a unbeliever can understand this is...to follow "ALL" the teachings of Jesus. Most don’t do it. Some think they do it. Others do it and fall each day but never give up.Only two (2) quick notes this time.

1) I especially agree with the part I've boldfaced.

2) The farmer should be more careful about what he sows. For after all, what you sow, so also shall you reap.
Third a true Christian...This is a person who learned the true meaning of Sin and understands the conclusion of it and thou he as accepted the Son of God as His personal savior from this conclusion. He falls short of being worthy daily. I'll agree with this except for two quick points:

1) I'm about as positive as I can be in my assumption that we have very different criteria regarding the true meaning of Sin and what it means to understand ... well, just about anything.

2) If I live to see the Judgement, and Christ walks before me, I will expect that He will be the first true Christian I'll ever meet.

A personal note: How's the camera coming along?

Actually, I'm quite curious, as I've noted the number of your posts and your registration date: I could have sworn you posted a couple of topics, including one in which you told me to stay out of your posts. In this case, I'm quite sorry to rain on your parade except that, well, you addressed me. But did you pull the topics, or is there another reason they've disappeared? If you're actually another Lyndale, or if that Lyndale was an hallucination, then I kindly beg your pardon. (I must note, though, you both bear a striking similarity in tone.)

By the way, just what constitutes people like you. Given the associative problems Christians in Oregon have displayed for over a decade, now, I'm kinda curious.

Oh, yeah. Whoops. Sorry, I didn't keep it brief. Just do your best, dear.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Lyndale
06-27-01, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by tiassa
Lyndale: I'll keep it brief, as I've noted you've begun resorting to the one-liner: "You don't understand!" But some effort is required: If I choose to keep it so brief that there was no text to post, I will have matched your nothing with my nothing, and that's a dumb way to have a debate. Oh, that's right ... I forgot, nobody's supposed to disagree with you. :rolleyes: So what exactly is it with you Christians and your Devil? In two thousand years of thinking really really hard about it, the collective force of the Christian sacrificed intellect has produced exactly zero in terms of viable philosophical resolutions. At least when Christians argue Creationism, they have one or two standard arguments before they have to resort to, "It's too complicated!"

So why don't you establish for us, once and for all, so that we may understand, exactly what purpose the Devil serves in exactly the following context:

* Christians assert the perfect knowledge of God--that is, God knows all; if you disagree with this perfect knowledge, we can end the discussion here.
* Christians assert the immutable will of God--that is, God does not make mistakes; if you disagree with this immutable will, we can end the discussion here.

1) Will the Devil be redeemed? (Something about Jesus and compassion? What's Jesus' limit on salvation?)
2) What is the extent of the Devil's authority? (Does he not, at least, have God's permission?)
3) Why does God not stop (defeat) the Devil? (What, as if God couldn't if He so wished?)
4) Why does God permit, at the very least--though possibly endorse or even commission--the Devil's work? (What purpose does this serve?)
5) Is God directly responsible for evil? (Consider the above.)

The truth of the matter is that by the rules the Christians have chosen by the setting of the Canon make the Devil as described for most of history quite impossible. The Devil is a dramatic tool at worst, a scapegoat at best.

If the Devil operates, he does so with God's full authority; the Devil must necessarily be in good standing (we need not even consider Job, such is the manner of the argument, but there's that, too, in case you try to claim that it's not in the Bible that the Devil has good standing); God, therefore, is directly responsible for evil, which makes the Devil into God's flak-man, and one might wonder that the guy's a little upset because look at the wounds he takes for existing as God created him.

The "Fall" of the Devil contributes here, too: God foresaw this rebellion, and deemed it necessary to the equation. The Devil behaves exactly as God wants and requires him to. If evil is evil, and should not be, then God has created it and put it into the Universe intentionally. To blame the Devil is the inability of the faithful to consider that God wants it this way. If the Devil is tempting you, it's because God demands that he do. Yes, you specifically. For nothing happens in this Universe, as I understand it, without God's say-so.

Or does the Devil exist outside God's authority? Is it possible that something exists in this Universe that transcends God's will, escapes His power?You've missed an option, and I think Emerald may have presented something quite like this before. So the Devil hates God and wishes to obscure the path. How best to do this? Well, dressing up as a virgin-born sorcerer and political commentator seems to have worked. Many of your fellow Christians at Sciforums claim that we pagans hate not you but God; this is probably true in the sense that we choose not to hate people. So if it's about hating God, how better to do that than to take away from him the apples (so to speak) of his eye? What happens if Satan leads the flock to the dark side? How better to do that than to create an obligatory religion, target it at the least educated and therefore most superstitious people in society (we should note here that Jesus was not working to attract the social elite, the academics, or the rich) such as the uneducated homeless, the social refuse, and those ostracized by their illness. What happens, then, when the sum effect of that religion is the outright defiance of God's commandments? Think of all the killing and hatred that Christians have sponsored throughout history: is this really what God intended? What ever happened to Thou shall not kill? (Lawdog is excepted here, since we already know that his answer is, at best, to plead apathy.) What about coveting your neighbors? What, are American Christians going to blame Manifest Destiny on the Deists? (Did you know that a law existed on the books of Tacoma, Washington, until the 1990's that may still be intact that makes it illegal to sell spirits to a person of indigenous American descent? Somehow, I don't see the Deists giving much of a rip about how much a Native drinks; nor do I recall that fierce Deist heritage of writing useless blue laws. I guarantee you this is a holdover of the temperance and prohibition movements driven by evangelical Christianity.) What the hell wasn't covetous about Manifest Destiny?I would advise that you to check out page 9 of Crumbling the foundations of Christianity, in which your fellow Christian Lawdog threatens a culture with extinction(6/9/2001); and later on (page 10, 6/11/2001) when the Dog endorses murder in the name of Jesus. After two thousand years of murder, it seems that Christians still don't get it the way they're supposed to. That's all well and fine for those who know they're imperfect and expect such imperfections, but in the meantime the Christian heart is callous toward the dead. It seems that human life is only reserved to Christian life. If this was a rare thing, and had not two millennia of exemplary history, such a collapse of the thought process would not worry me as much. We know that Christians who bomb medical facilities and shoot doctors aren't following the Bible, but they're right in there with the most glaring trends of Christian faith. We know that men who beat their wives aren't practicing what Jesus said, but what's up with the fact that this still isn't clear? What, is there nothing to be done about it? Are you all just ... waiting around for God to show up and handle it? You, Lyndale, who accuse people of hate, something about a beam in your eye! You would feel persecuted because of something you chose to believe? You would feel persecuted because people are less than comfortable with the brands of violence, hatred, and division you choose to believe in? Your faith is your choice, Lyndale. So is the kicking around of people that has traditionally come with it. As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people. What about it don't you understand that God made these people as they are? Who the hell are you to question God's motives in this Universe? What, does the Almighty have a tech-support desk you can e-mail to tell Him about your perceived bugs in His program? Or do you proceed on faith in your own mortal judgement and try to correct what He has done wrong?

What is it about other people that Christians find so unacceptable? Yet after two thousand years of declaring that people are not fit to exist as God made them, Christians dare feel persecuted when people talk about what's wrong with the religion?

Get it together: understand your faith so that everything doesn't feel so much like the hatred you're so determined to find.Only two (2) quick notes this time.

1) I especially agree with the part I've boldfaced.

2) The farmer should be more careful about what he sows. For after all, what you sow, so also shall you reap. I'll agree with this except for two quick points:

1) I'm about as positive as I can be in my assumption that we have very different criteria regarding the true meaning of Sin and what it means to understand ... well, just about anything.

2) If I live to see the Judgement, and Christ walks before me, I will expect that He will be the first true Christian I'll ever meet.

A personal note: How's the camera coming along?

Actually, I'm quite curious, as I've noted the number of your posts and your registration date: I could have sworn you posted a couple of topics, including one in which you told me to stay out of your posts. In this case, I'm quite sorry to rain on your parade except that, well, you addressed me. But did you pull the topics, or is there another reason they've disappeared? If you're actually another Lyndale, or if that Lyndale was an hallucination, then I kindly beg your pardon. (I must note, though, you both bear a striking similarity in tone.)

By the way, just what constitutes people like you. Given the associative problems Christians in Oregon have displayed for over a decade, now, I'm kinda curious.

Oh, yeah. Whoops. Sorry, I didn't keep it brief. Just do your best, dear.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:

Tiassa
You are a constant proof, that..." satan hates Christians the most"...keep up the bad work, you make your master proud. Maybe someone else will notice and take steps to find out why and eventually look to God thrue the Son.

I feel sorry for you Tiassa, your letting your hate blind you.

May God have mercy on you.

Lyndale.

Tiassa
06-27-01, 05:32 PM
Try harder. Really.

But there's one thing that I just can't figure out:
May God have mercy on you. What reasons motivate you to wish me ill?

Lawdog has threatened people like me (and you still haven't advised what you mean by that), Loone goes around trumping military metaphors and the triumph of the sword, and now here's you, wishing me, personally, ill.

But I shall make a note of it that you are either unwilling or incapable of answering even the simpler questions I have asked. Either way, you are demonstrating my point.

I have faith in people in general, Lyndale, and that's why I'm sure you can do better than that. It just takes a little effort.

--Tiassa :cool:

Shady_Reaper
06-28-01, 12:37 AM
WHy is it that whenever you pin a christian in a corner they say that it's hate. Since when is disbelief or exercising free will hate. WHen did this happen. I wish I had known about it because I would have voted against. And If anyone dasagrees with me it's because they are blinded by hate

Lyndale
06-28-01, 05:41 PM
I am continuely amazed, how you twist your/my words and meanings...to establish your HALF TRUTHS.


Lyndale.

Shady_Reaper
06-28-01, 06:37 PM
lyndale you are blinded by hate. Youi must accept my beliefs through my non existant son that is the only path to my eternal holy afterlife haven a heaven if you will. If you cannot do this because you are blinded by hate you will be tortured forever in the worst places of all places lets just call it hell. Oh and I need money you can make your donations at my overglorified worship house and I promise it will come to me and because of this you will get into heaven.

Tiassa
06-28-01, 07:44 PM
Shady:

Thank you for covering that one; I wasn't sure who he was talking to. Of your continual amazement, I wanted to offer a theory that works toward both two forms of negativity that you and I seem to be regarding as hateful.

I would assert that the hatred conveyed, and the perception of hatred conveyed--that is, both the vitriol of Lyndale's excoriations, and also his perceptions of hatred when differences are on the table--result from the isolation brought about by the haughty assumption of being "God's" elect. What this results in is at least twofold:

* A reduction of human symathy and a necessary compensation through the means of assumptive empathy. Combined with the presupposition of the worst in people (e.g.--we are all born into sin), the assumptive empathy becomes a primary factor in achieving salvation. One of the faith extends their heart where they know not necessarily what one is engaging. I remember once, hearing someone tell a suicidal that they understand the pain, but this isn't the way of doing it. Now, being that this empathic, understanding person did not share even a common degree of relevant life experience (e.g. had not been raped by her father, silenced by her preacher, and ignored by her mother) I generally question the nature of that empathy. That empathy strove not toward reconciliation of the self, but the greedy end of personal salvation. I hear people who proudly announce that they've never used drugs saying that they understand the drug addict. I hear people who hate homosexuals saying that they understand a homosexual's emotional state. In my own youth, Christians tried daily to tell me what I was thinking and feeling; the upshot of this, of course, was my increased attention to art and its deeper meanings--I have progressed as an artist in ways I may not have. But this reduction of human sympathy and increase of assumptive empathy toward the worst in people results in the hateful-seeming apathy toward the legitimacy of other persons. The bottom line is that no matter how much a person of faith "loves" another, the attempt to redeem that person and convert them to the faith merely reminds that person that someone finds them unacceptable as God made them. Such empathic assumptions, combined with that obsession with sin and darkness, results in a hateful assault against other people.

* We must remember that people of the Christian faith live amid exceptional dualism. History shows that Christianity requires an all-or-nothing result. Entire nations have fallen to the mercy of this God and His people; every hatred licensed by the superiority of being among God's elect. Amid such bizarre principles, we might possibly see in the modern faith a tendency to assume dualism. That is, since I do not agree with you, I must apparently hate you as God hates those who disagree with Him. Or something quite like that.

I have to admit that when Oral Roberts said God demanded four-million dollars or else Oral should kill himself ... well, I was kind of surprised that people sent the money. In fact, that period from Roberts through Falwell and Tilton drove nails into my waning fear of God. Hung it on the wall, to be honest. It wasn't the preachers themselves; hell, I could tell they were snake-oilers. But what amazed me time and time again was the response of the faithful. Instead of showing pride by cleaning house, they showed pride by pretending there was no mess.

Oh, and I need money .... :rolleyes: You have made me grin, sir, and I thank you.

Lyndale:

As I noted to Shady, I wasn't sure which of whom you were talking to. At any rate, there's a fair chance it's me. In that case, let me advise you that no, I'm not twisting your words.

* The mercy of your God is a plague. Too many have suffered in the name of that mercy. Too many today suffer in the name of that mercy. It is my opinion that humanity has a better chance of surviving in the Universe without Christianity; I can justify this merely by noting that the religion looks forward to the end of the world. But the human effect has been largely and characteritically detrimental. When you wish the mercy of your God unto me, I can only be comforted by the knowledge that he's more than likely not listening to you.

It's that assumptive empathy.

Oh, something for your wisdom to clarify for all of us apparently incapable of understanding:
Tiassa
You are a constant proof, that..." satan hates Christians the most"...Tell you what, I'll concede the point to you if you can demonstrate it syllogistically. Easy enough?

No, seriously. This I gotta see.

--Tiassa :cool:

Deadwood
07-01-01, 07:04 AM
Hi everyone. Sorry to come into this late but I havn't posted for two or three weeks because my old computer died. :(

It was said in page one that Christians hate other peoples beliefs. I actually think it is great that other people are searching for God. I have been teased by other people because of my belief. I don't hold it against them or say anything derogitory back, instead, I am very pleased that they are just seeking approval by their God.

Tiassa, what is happening in Colorado and Oregon? I always hear you say that Christianity is ruining and trying to control other peoples lives but I have never heard anything about that. You can call me naive for that. I live in a country where 30% of the population don't believe in any God.

Thanks.

Emerald
07-01-01, 10:03 AM
Tiassa,

Well, after having been out of town on a business trip, I've returned to find you've done all my work for me here - hey, thanks! ;)

Yes, I was the one who suggested that Jesus was the one who came to deceive the easily misled. It wasn't a very popular notion, I'm afraid, but thanks for mentioning it. :)

Anyway <b>Shady</b>, speaking of lists, here's a couple of not too irrelevant "top ten" jokes to lighten things up a bit (or not ;) ):

<a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.reli.html">Comebacks to religious promoters knocking on your door</a>

<a href="http://www.jokesnetwork.com/living/li.god.html">Signs that God hates you</a>

Enjoy! :)

Emerald

Emerald
07-01-01, 11:11 AM
Shady,

Here is an interesting, not to mention, rather unusual, "top ten" list of reasons to become a devout Christian, which I found on the internet (I'm reprinting it here because unless you go directly to the site and click on the appropriate link from there, what you get is a yellow font color against a white background):

<a href="http://www.ieway.com/climbit/god_files/top%20ten%20reasons%20for%20jesus%20in%20unbelief. htm">TOP TEN REASONS ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....</a>

<font color="green">The idea here is to post scripture references and academic research paper links with each of the Top Ten items... like ‘AMA reports that heavy consumption of alcohol reduces life span of dumb white males.’ If you have any such links –SEND ‘EM!

#10. NOTHING WILL SHRIVEL UP, FALL OFF, MAKE YOU IMPOTENT, or KILL YOU. e.g. You will have less (perhaps approaching zed, zero, nada, zilch) chance of contracting a sexually transmitted disease (STD) if you’re celibate (ouch! but still possible!!) or faithfully married to your single partner of the opposite sex. (Look we don’t make the rules, we just know its really smart to follow them based on 4000 years of tradition and reams of modern scientific study... but whatever).

#9. IT’S PART OF YOUR HEALTHY DIET.... A healthy lifestyle of eating habits with emphasis on fruits, nuts, grains, and lean meats (not to mention fowl and bread from heaven) with avoidance of fat and blood (again we won’t mention the temperate use of wine, juices, and water) is GOOD for the body per biblical principles!

#8. IT’LL HELP YOU BECOME WISER AND CLEVER (sneaky?). There is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, run a business, treat your enemies, enjoy victory, learn from defeat, stay healthy, have as much fun in the long-run as possible, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus embodied in Christianity. Proverbs 9:10, John 10:10

#7. IF YOU PLAY IT RIGHT YOU CAN EVEN LOOK SMART. The Bible - old and new testaments - is the only ‘religious’ book that has not been found in direct conflict with modern science, physics, astronomy, etc. Yeah, yeah, there’s some controversy over some little details like the Flood, original Creation, but its all in the details! Besides, you don’t care because you’re not really believing in the whole eternal God thing anyway. These are reasons to be a Christian without really believing. Scientists are weirding out ‘cause they may have to decide to believe in something besides randomness and minor fluctuations in the Second Law of Thermodynamics.. yikes! You could be one step ahead and already be a Bible-Believin-Dr-Hugh-Ross-Thinkin-Bill-Nye-Lookin-Physics- Quotin-Disciple before it becomes popular, kind of like going to the Pearl Jam concert in Austin TX at Liberty Lounge in 1993 (?) right before Jeremy hit MTV, no? (Anyone remember Pearl Jam?). Besides, old Jewish scholars in the 8th century were already talking superstrings and the existence of God in 10 dimensions, so what’s new under the sun anyway.... be hip... or whatever... God and old earth creation .. death of gradualism... anthropic principle (or is it princi-pal)... intelligent design... just keep repeatin stuff like that and you’l be all over it. Check out http://www.reasons.org/index.html

#6. IT’LL HELP YOU MAKE AND KEEP FRIENDS AND A LOVER. Low on friends? Who isn’t? Dumped by that loser boyfriend again? Yeah! You know, an excellent argument can be made that there is no better source for wisdom, instruction, and advice on how to be a good person, maintain good relationships, show love, and generally live as full a life as possible (of course, history is replete with people working the system for their own personal advantage or the destruction of others) than the Bible presents in stories, examples, and teachings. Arguably, one might consider the Koran or perhaps the teachings of Buddha or Confucius to be as valuable, but certainly not any better than the teachings of Jesus found in Christianity.

#5. FORGIVENESS & A CLEAR CONSCIENCE. Christianity is the only ‘religion’ that teaches that forgiveness for ourselves and from us to others is a fundamental right of existence. Most religions either conclude you have nothing to feel guilty or require forgiveness from.... do they have your conscience?! They certainly dont have mine! In other systems of thought, forgiveness either does not really exist (it is a deception) which is kind of ridiculous as far as I know or they teach it must be earned. If you are good enough you get forgiven. If not, too bad. That’s a rough world, where you never get to hear “Sorry dude” or “It’s cool” e.g. forgive you” from your mom, dad. sister, cat, brother, friend, dog, boyfriend, spouse, etc.

#4. COMMUNITY, INCLUSION, AND A HELPING HAND. Christians maintain a tight ‘community’ that helps each other out and does stuff together. There is a group of people who know you, miss you, and want to do stuff with you! In many unfortunate examples, some groups of Christians dont seem to want new members or people who aren’t like them - they forget what they used to be like. In all cases, anybody will eventually get accepted because that’s what Jesus said to do, so we’re stuck with you! And once everybody gets to know you, turns out you’re not so bad after all. A sense of belonging, of being included in something that is bigger than you, is what results. You could get that at the local pub or gentleman’s night club, I guess, but the cover charges are terrible and no-one seems to come around once you really need some serious help. There’s always the Kiwanis and Lions Club but doggone it those membership fees are killer.

#3. YOU WON’T HAVE TO BE CONFUSED BY STRANGE CONCEPTS LIKE RIGHT AND WRONG! This is similar to #8 but way different... waz’ up! Oh yeah, in Christian belief there is a very clear distinction between RIGHT (stuff the Bible says is OK or good for you) and WRONG (stuff on the other end of that spectrum). This allows one to live a pretty uncluttered, semi-un-confusing, unambiguous kind of life. When people say, ‘Hey, dude, let’s go get wasted.’ you can check the concordance (index of words) for wasted or something similar and can’t find it... so you call some old guy at the church (he’s 30 or something) and he directs you to that same bible without ‘wasted in the directory’ and it says that your body is the temple of God and that you’re supposed to be temperate in all things and PRESTO! it turns out that getting wasted is wrong. What a relief.... without that little tidbit of information, you might have spent a lot of time either a) wondering and worrying if you should go do this or b) vomiting, nursing a hangover, holding funeral services for dead brain and liver cells, etc. What’s weird about all this is that even when we do stuff the Bible says is wrong (AKA ‘SIN’) Christianity is so cool because we just pray to God in heaven (which we don’t really believe in, right?) and get our sin transferred over to another God-division/department and off ourselves!!! Clean conscience and everything (see related topic #5), that is assuming we REALLY are sorry about that little failing we had and will struggle not to repeat it. It’s a great system for a healthy state of mind (emotional health). Incidentally, what the Bible calls right and good has largely been shown to contribute measurably (see article links below) to long life, psychological wellness, life span, etc. and vice versa (note that the alpha case for AIDS/HIV was a homosexual man - well, it was - we can’t be politically correct all the time, can we.... oh,,,,, we can? sorry.)

#2. YOU’LL HAVE SOMETHING TO DO WITH YOUR FREE TIME AND IT WILL SEEM LIKE YOU’RE DOING SOMETHING POSITIVE AN BIGGER THAN YOURSELF AND MAYBE I WONT BE SO ALONE AND THE LONELINESS IS WORST AT NIGHTS AND ETC> ETC> ETC> ETC> As a 14 year old girl wearing leather and a spiked dog collar once told us, ‘Yeah, everyone is born with some kind of hole in their heart and they try to fill it.’ Based on #3-#10 on the Top Ten List, might as well fill it with Christianity?! Why NOT? Why not fill it with vibrant, full, deep, passionate Christianity (which does include the Song of songs you know as a Christian lover’s guide to passion and delight in marriage - it also tells some wild parallels between the same deal and how Christ might think of the church as his bride if you were nuts enough to get whacked by the Holy Spirit and believe in stuff like, well, like the Holy Spirit and the new Jerusalem and eternal city of God, etc.). By the way, I am appalled that Christians are NOT any fun... I’ve seen many, many dull Christians and its just not BIBLICAL!!! Let’s buck up here and live like we believe the Bible on Daniel, Elijah, Joseph, John the Baptist (that dude could hike and camp anywhere!) etc.... Where was I? Oh yes, we all seek to fill that hole in our hearts with something bigger than us. We wanna belong. We wanna be ‘right.’ We wanna be ‘tough’ we wanna be ‘popular’ we wanna be ‘outcasts’ we wanna be ‘goodies’ or ‘unforgiven’ or whatever. The truth is we wanna be anything but us.

and the #1 reason ON EARTH TO BE A (DEVOUT) CHRISTIAN ASSUMING THERE IS NO AFTERLIFE FOREVER WITH GOD ANYWAY.....

#1. IT ALL SEEMS SO REAL..... The Christian life seems so remarkably REAL. Bad things happen (wow). Good things happen (hmmm). Stuff rocks. Other stuff sucks. But when you are convinced (or at least deceiving yourself) that your life here is but a waking dream, that gives all those good and bad things a strangely different twist ... a new perspective. You respond differently (at least some percentage of the time) than somebody who’s convinced that their entire life and sole chance for happiness DIED with the cancellation of the Everclear concert in Portland... For a Christian, one can always convince themselves, like - so what? Will Everclear be in heaven? If not, too bad. If so, maybe we can jam up there (or so the thought process might go). The point is (and Jesus said this in John 10:10): that Christians have the ability to embrace life and live life to the fullest - the highest highs, the lowest lows, and all the neat interludes in between. Most people miss most of their lives because they’re not paying attention - like driving home after a really great time with a new ‘love’ or after an inebriating early morning encounter with a ditch/tree/ stop sign/police officer.... uhhh, i never saw it, officer. Christians have the ability to embrace life and say ‘Let it come, God, I’m ready to ROCK!’ We soak up the pain and that last cup of sorrow and cry the guts out and then we’re fresh again, because after all - God is on our side, right? Then we can jump up and down and smash a few guitars/glasses/rocks/soccerballs/(insert-your-word-here) out of the sheer joy of living life with good friends, solid beliefs, firm foundations, and FUN things to do.

I guess it would be hard to do this if you don’t truly believe that Jesus Christ was the only Son of God, the same as God stuffed into a little temporal earth-suit (I stole this phrase from Kyle Miller, Austin TX, Professional Christian Counseling Service pccs@flash.net) who died to pay for my bad mojo (sin - kinda like bail money to pay my behavioral debt to God) and then loved me enough to LIVE again and have a cool time hanging out as my older brother and helping me along. Whatever, you gotta believe in something, even if it’s wrong. Some old fart band named RUSH had a line that said ‘If you choose not to believe you still have made a choice...’ duh. And a sad, lonely choice! Join the ranks of the self-deceived & terminally infested with the Spirit of the Living GOD!!! TODAY! Look down, think up, and say ‘Jesus, HELP ME! Save me! Fix me! Self-deceive me today and never go away... Place your Spirit within me, Jesus! Make the self-deception real until all I see is You! Rock me, Lord... and keep holdin on. Amen.’ or somethin like it.

j lee davis

spokane WA

99 Feb 22</font>

Hmmm...I don't think I've ever quite seen that approach before. So I guess the real reason for becoming a Christian all boils down to personal gain? Well, I guess I knew that already, but it's unusual to see someone who appears to be a Christian actually come out and boldly admit it like that. What is <i>really</i> astonishing is the fact that this person would unashamedly admit that it is all nothing but self-deception! Who says there's nothing new under the sun? :D

Emerald

<b>Edit note:</b> Editing to fix link.

thecurly1
07-01-01, 11:18 AM
Just because you don't believe in God, or says that "he sucks" doesn't mean you have the right to bashing Christianity. I take offense to that as Roman Catholic. You are so stupid that you should have post this thread in the Atheist category, not Christianity. I hate people that don't know what they are doing. And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.
I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

The next believe that you post, religious or scientific will be ripped apart by fangs-o-destruction. Brace yourself, my mind unleashed isn't a pretty site.


"In a fight go straight for the jugular." -- Me.

thecurly1
07-01-01, 11:44 AM
He is a hate monger because he sends gays to hell for being gay and that is just intolerance -- Shady_Reper.

Once again you don't know what you are talking about, the Bible states that there is nothing wrong with being a homosexual. It becomes a problem when you have gay sex, you can't go to hell for just being gay. Sexuall perference isn't a sin in God's eyes.

Emerald
07-01-01, 12:02 PM
Curly,


Originally posted by thecurly1
Just because you don't believe in God, or says that "he sucks" doesn't mean you have the right to bashing Christianity. I take offense to that as Roman Catholic. You are so stupid that you should have post this thread in the Atheist category, not Christianity. I hate people that don't know what they are doing. And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.
I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

The next believe that you post, religious or scientific will be ripped apart by fangs-o-destruction. Brace yourself, my mind unleashed isn't a pretty site.


"In a fight go straight for the jugular." -- Me.

Interesting response. I think <b>Tiassa</b> would suggest that you might just be an <i>agent provocateur</i>, oui? Why do you entice Christians to violence against non-Christians? Is that what your religion is all about? Or are you simply doing your part to weed out the <i>tares</i>? Isn't that supposed to be the function of your Satan? If so, do you think he will appreciate your efforts on his behalf and reward you accordingly? Just curious...

Emerald

Tiassa
07-01-01, 03:56 PM
Tiassa, what is happening in Colorado and Oregon?

Oregon: In the late 1980's, a conservative Christian PAC formed, called the Oregon Citizens' Alliance (OCA). The original cause, as I recall, had something to do with Oregon's liberal abortion laws, and the curtailing or revocation thereof. In 1989 or so, a Christian parent objected to a book in the Springfield, Oregon, public library, entitled Heather Has Two Mommies. After civic officials determined that the contradiction of one religion's canonical values was insufficient cause to remove the book from circulation, the OCA set about changing the law. In 1990, the OCA fostered two successful measures in Corvallis and Springfield which made it illegal for the local governments to "endorse, encourage, or promote" homosexuality. Objectionable books were removed from the shelves.

Encouraged by this success, the OCA moved toward a statewide ballot measure, aimed at the 1992 general election. Known as Measure 9, the measure would have changed the Oregon state constitution to prohibit any government agency in Oregon from"endorsing, encouraging, or promoting" homosexuality. The implications of Measure 9 (M9) as written were enormous: Civil libertarians cited possible interpretations of the law that would allow the firing of state employees on grounds of suspsected homosexuality: teachers, police officers, firemen ... typing pools from around the state and local government offices .... The state would further be unable to prosecute anti-gay violence as a hate crime, and there would be some legal question as to whether a DA would be allowed to refute a superstitious, anti-gay defense, such as the threat one feels, because that state ballot measure said that gays commit 95% of child molestations (an unsupportable statistic thrown into the OCA's official literature for panic's sake). Can you imagine being evicted from your apartment because your roommate is of the same gender? The state cannot prosecute the wrongness of this without endorsing homosexuality as acceptable behavior. Schools would be obliged by M9's language to address homosexuality only when it came up from the students, and then further obliged to describe it as morally deviant, socially detrimental, and otherwise negative. Counselors facing students with confused sexual impulses would be obliged to directly discourage homosexuality as wrong. Libraries censored, civic events denied, and all because one group of Oregon Christians repeatedly manages at least 40% at the ballot box every damn year (there was one year, maybe two disparate years, in the 90's, when the OCA didn't dominate the electorate's attention). M9 failed in 1992 by a narrow margin; the OCA is repeatedly encouraged by their respectable showing at the ballot box. Scott Lively, of the OCA, published a book in which he attempted to establish modern homosexuals as the literal and current Nazi party. Phillip Ramsdell, of the OCA, published in the voter's guide a list of sexually-oriented terms which caused general revulsion and was quite effective in portraying the "sick" side of homosexuality until it was pointed out that heterosexuals like this stuff, too. The OCA in general has always maintained a goal to equate homosexuality to pedophilia and bestiality (and necrophilia) in their public statements. They like to string the terms together in their ballot measures, which is part of why they fail.

* http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2538 is a thread from the Religious Debate Archives in which Bowser and I slugged it out on last year's OCA monster, which failed. The scariest thing is that the language hasn't changed that much; they keep rewording the scope of the effect in an effort to slip the same measure by the public. It should be noted that the OCA attempted to expand into Washington (WCA) and Idaho (ICA), but both chapters eventually failed for lack of public interest.

* http://www.oregoncitizensalliance.org

Colorado: Having not lived through Colorado in Colorado, I can give you only a sketch.

* In 1992, a group called Coloradon for Family Values, sponsored Amendment 2, almost identical in its language to OCA M9. Amendment 2 passed; as a constitutional amendment, it circumvented judicial review and became part of the judicial standard. Federal lawsuits were filed, injuctions granted, and the law suspended until it was eventually gutted in the federal courts.

* CFV founders (McCarty, I believe is the one I'm thinking of) are also organizers of the ill-fated Promise Keepers movement.

And then I've got a number of issues with the Republican Party in Colorado, which instructs its state senators in how to vote, at the stake of future campaign funds.

Side note: Of the whole debacle, one of the results has been that people now routinely sue to hold up public ballot measures. Where we see issues of the law taking away the presence of rights not otherwise suspended in the case of Amendment 2 and M9, part of Oregon's Christian response has been to sue all ballot measures with which they disagree. For instance, Oregon's Measure 16, the Right to Die. That one was held up in the courts, reaffirmed by the people in a separate election and held up in the courts some more on the strange grounds that granting a person the right to die was somehow unfair to that person. I've lost track, at present, of that measure.

But Oregon and Colorado are two places in which the 1990's witnessed a religious storm aimed toward moral governance. In Oregon, at least, the ugliness goes on.

Incidentally, I can't seem to locate Colorado for Family Values' website. Google and Lycos both, however, provide a plethora of the backlash.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Emerald
07-01-01, 04:48 PM
Tiassa,


Originally posted by tiassa
Incidentally, I can't seem to locate Colorado for Family Values' website.

It appears they haven't yet moved into the 20th Century (let alone the 21st). Undoubtedly, computers and the internet are all part of an evil plot to destroy families. :rolleyes:

But they do have an address and phone number:

Colorado for Family Values
3709 Parkmoor Village Drive
Colorado Springs, CO 80917

(719) 573 - 4229

Emerald

Deadwood
07-03-01, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by thecurly1

I hate people that don't know what they are doing.

As a Christian you should not hate anyone.

Interesting, the two on this forum who say they are Roman Catholic, seem to show hate towards non believer. Friends, witness the ones responsible for the Crusades and the inquisition. Ones who have not love but hate for others. I assure you not all Roman Catholics are like this, I know many who love others. Its the ones who don't that really detract from our Christian faith.

I ask you The curly and Lawdog, learn what love is, learn real Christian virtues. Do not turn Christianity into a bunch of laws. The two greatest commandments which Jesus taught were love the Lord your God, and Love you neighbour. I don't see evidence of this in your posts. I ask you to take some time to examine yourself. This is what I am taught at church. Don't be stubborn, find out who you really are in Christ Jesus. Be baptized in the Holy Spirit. Begin to really experience the Christian life.

I also know what the people at this post are saying when they say that Christians are always trying to find ways to make themselves think that they are hated by people around them. I find it annoying to. It is about time that Christians (not all of us included) quit sopping in a corner and experience the daily wonders of the Christian life. PRAISE GOD!!!


I TAKE THIS AS INSULT TO MY FAITH, AND SO WOULD THE OTHER ONE BILLION CHRISTIANS ON EARTH.

What is your faith based on. The love of Jesus Christ or the hate of others to do not believe as you do. I do sincerely hope you answered to the first and not the former.

Thanks for your time. :)

Tiassa
07-03-01, 12:43 AM
I just keep hoping that they go away.

Were I CFV, I would add every hate mailer to the mailing list. That oughta teach 'em . But seriously, that might be it: can you imagine having to sort through that email mess? I bet keeping phone operators is tough enough.

And that mailroom ... not a chance I'd set foot in there.

It's only people's lives and livelihoods at stake: I can't imagine why anyone would be upset. :rolleyes:

It's the price of being an American, I guess.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

thecurly1
07-03-01, 01:03 PM
I'm clearing up my statement not to cover my ass but to clarify what I meant. When I get anxious about subjects, I the hands move faster than the brain if you catch my drift.

When I said, "I hate people that don't know what they are talking about." I meant hate in the scene of it agitates me when they don't know what they are talking about and proclaim their ideas as infallible and almighty. I didn't mean hate in the context of spite or malice. Actually I think of myself as a fairly inclusive and open minded person when it comes to a lot of subjects.

Tiassa
07-03-01, 01:35 PM
And when I find something that you Shady_Reaper believe in I will tear that believe to shreds.It's nice of you to clear up the hate item, Curly, but what about this?

What you seem to think is that people are arbitrarily attacking Christianity. What, is there no merit behind the pattern of abusive behavior documented by the infidels?

So if Shady believes the sky is blue, will you tear that belief to shreds?

Or will you wait until Shady is advocating something which is either wrong, or the justifications for which are incorrect?

As it's written, it doesn't matter what that belief it: as it's written, if Shady says that he believes rape is wrong, you'll argue with him that it's right.

Bottom line: yes, it is possible to read through what someone writes until we reach what they're expressing. Strangely, though, we're only welcome to do that reading through if the result attributes something positive to the person. So the end result is that it is as unwise to assume the positive about the poster as it is to assume the negative. Left with a literal interpretation of what you're writing, Curly ... it's not encouraging, is it?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

thecurly1
07-03-01, 02:05 PM
This is my last post, everyone has to nit pick and take apart every statement. I would be curious if anyone has found the word, "figuratively" in their lexicon. I was obviously (or so I thought) talking about any religious or quasi-religious believes, not weather the retarded sky is blue or not. Don't reduce my statements to such triviality, because you know that wasn't what I was talking about.
Not everything is suppose to be take so damn literally, this is something the society has forgot in the past few decades. I cleared up my misinterpreted statement. The core subject of my original post was that he shouldn't go around bashing subjects, especially religion because he doesn't believe in them. I wasn't bashing but venting my anger on his unabaded, ripping into my religion which I find insulting. The statement that Shady_Reaper said was to be taken literally, not figuratively. I hope someone out there can understand what I was trying to express.

P.S. Deadwood, I don't need a bible study class in what Jesus Christ was about, I am well aware of this and think its arrogant of you to tell me what his lessons were.
Plus you are almost say that I and Lawdog are quasi-Christians and that we don't know what we are talking about. Even if I do hate someone, this doesn't necessarily sprout from a religious believe. You are using religion as a tool to further advance your dislike for my opinions. I would think as a true Christian you would have more common sense than that.
DON'T BOTHER REPLYING TO THIS POST, I WON'T BE ATTENDING THE CHRISTIANITY, OR ANY OTHER RELIGIOUS SECTION OF SCIFORMS FOR QUITE A WHILE. EVERYONE IN HERE IS HYPOCRITICAL TO SOME EXTENT.

Shady_Reaper
07-03-01, 11:04 PM
You already have seen my beliefsa that thewre is no god and if there is he sux. I posted it in the Christianity one because I thought it would generate some interecting responses.

Deadwood
07-04-01, 07:06 AM
Just to clarify what I wrote in that last post to everyone in the forum, I found what thecurly1 said rather serious. The screw you! in the subject header, and your so stupid comments as well as I hate anyone comments were rather serious. For any Christian who hates someone or says screw you to a non believer, I think that they should examine themselves as Christians. I would.

2 Corinthians ch 13 vs 5

5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Believing in Christ does not give us a right or an attitude to go about hating other people, nor is this taught in the Gospels. So I don't think it was arrogant of me to point out the two most important commandments of Love. thecurly and Lawdog, I am merely asking you to examine yourselves. Do you really love your neighbour? These people at the forums, I regard as neighbours, I would not wish to kill or hate them, I wish them and you all the best. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour or even believe in a God, I still do not find that a good enough reason to hate you or fight you. But as long as there is a Christianity forum at exosci I will hopefully continue to be able to post here so that you can all here my views.

The Shady Though, you may take the view that God does not exist and is mean and hateful. I consider the fact that after making fun of Him and you still being alive evidence of His love for you.


You already have seen my beliefsa that thewre is no god and if there is he sux. I posted it in the Christianity one because I thought it would generate some interecting responses.

It generated some interesting spelling too. :)

Lyndale No denomination of Christianity is supierior to the other. Put behind you this notion. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sister just as well as my prostestant, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostal brothers and sisters etc. I attend Roman Catholic chuch as well as Anglican (Chruch of England, Protestant) though the two forms of worship are different none are superior to the other. Do not hate your brother or sisters.

Tiassa

As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people.

May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well.

The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! :)

Thanks :)

Lyndale
07-04-01, 11:27 AM
Originally posted by Deadwood
Just to clarify what I wrote in that last post to everyone in the forum, I found what thecurly1 said rather serious. The screw you! in the subject header, and your so stupid comments as well as I hate anyone comments were rather serious. For any Christian who hates someone or says screw you to a non believer, I think that they should examine themselves as Christians. I would.

2 Corinthians ch 13 vs 5

5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

Believing in Christ does not give us a right or an attitude to go about hating other people, nor is this taught in the Gospels. So I don't think it was arrogant of me to point out the two most important commandments of Love. thecurly and Lawdog, I am merely asking you to examine yourselves. Do you really love your neighbour? These people at the forums, I regard as neighbours, I would not wish to kill or hate them, I wish them and you all the best. If you don't believe in Jesus Christ as your saviour or even believe in a God, I still do not find that a good enough reason to hate you or fight you. But as long as there is a Christianity forum at exosci I will hopefully continue to be able to post here so that you can all here my views.

The Shady Though, you may take the view that God does not exist and is mean and hateful. I consider the fact that after making fun of Him and you still being alive evidence of His love for you.



It generated some interesting spelling too. :)

Lyndale No denomination of Christianity is supierior to the other. Put behind you this notion. I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sister just as well as my prostestant, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostal brothers and sisters etc. I attend Roman Catholic chuch as well as Anglican (Chruch of England, Protestant) though the two forms of worship are different none are superior to the other. Do not hate your brother or sisters.

Tiassa

As I advised Loone and Deadwood: Clean up your own damn house instead of taking it out on us! You hate people for what they believe. We protect ourselves against what you do. I am so sick and tired of this infantile whining that Christians put on, feeling persecuted when the simple fact is that they simply need to lay the hell off other people.

May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well.

The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! :)

Thanks :)

There is "ONLY ONE WAY", "ONE PATH",...THAT LEADS TO GOD. "ONE". NOT 2 OR MORE. That path is by the Son of God, Jesus. Only by every example that He gave, Only by every breath, that He breathed, Only by the love He taught,...will a man find the Lord, God.
Any side stepping to the aforementioned will lead to hell. If this is what you do or your religion, then you have been decieved and you are on the path to hell.
I hate the deception not the person.
Christian, means "Christ like". Any variance,...is against God.
Mary, budah, ...nor any other man will lead you to God.
Jesus said... I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, NO man commeth to the Father but by ME.
Do you not understand this. Or ...do you think Jesus made a mistake and forgot something....?

Lyndale.

Tiassa
07-04-01, 03:32 PM
May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs? Also, I doubt that Loone hates others for their beliefs as well. Well, there's your 6/24/2001 contribution to this very topic:
We/I should not hate no person. We do not approve of any religion, that does not follow the example thrue the Son of God. It seems to me that we went through this very issue in another thread.

* http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=2870 is a starter.

We seem to have discussed, quite clearly, in To God be the Glory! the diffiuclties I have with your particular expressions. I see a post requesting more detail over there, so you'll find some more specific thoughts on that thread there.
If you mean by preaching the Gospel, I see no problem with that. If you are to be saved, Christ is the only acceptable sacrifice. No other sacrifice will be accepted for atonement of sins. This is why Christians hold that this is the only way to be saved. No other path can lead to salvation, but believeing in the Messiah you will be justified. Such as here, where you basically declared that people are unfit for God's purposes as God made them. The implication being common to the notion of conversion, the purpose of evangelism and missionary work. Quite simply, the Christian declaration is that people--as God made them--are unfit. This undermines the entirety of salvation by making it a dog-and-pony show for God's amusement. To further this cruelty in the living world is persecutory.
I must state that all of this leads to life. Our conflict is against the supernatural. Christians are called to this fight. We must fight the principalities of evil, the demons who's will is to bring suffering, and they have.To bring you suffering? That's not persecutory?
Three statements reflecting my personality that you got totally wrong.

I was actually writing what another Muslim told me. About making myself feel better about Christian treatment of women thats news to me. How am I using other cultures? Tiassa, I am a lot different than what you think. Stop branding me as some person who loves other Christians and hates everyone else. You don't know me, you don't know what I'm like as a person, you bring these stupid conclusions to what I say. Put your crap onto someone else. You feel illl-represented by my words? Propagandized? Yet I'm only drawing conclusions, according to my usual method, from your own words.

And there's an even greater issue to address here: Like I noted to Lyndale: As I have advised Loone and Deadwood .... Lyndale is like many Christians who complain of persecution; that statement officially adds him to the list of people I've told that. His contradictions of persecution are more naked and apparent than yours.

And yes, Deadwood, I do see what's taking place. You'll find that I shall generally try to keep my nose out of that part of what you're posting; and while I'm aware that demonstration for my purposes is not the primary focus, I want you to know that I, at least, note and appreciate it. You will find enough flak on that side of the argument that I don't have a particular desire to pile it on, and nor will I be inclined to involve myself unless a specific issue compels me. But I would be the satan, then, to interfere in that half of the process without some obvious reason. But it would seem that we're seeing at least a couple of credibility issues in common, and that's a precious chance to throw a rope across the abyss, regardless of who's going to do the tightrope.
The reason I ask is because I make a valid point not to be like those other Christians who make out life is so tough. Not even St Paul in all of his hardships did he do this. Instead he did the exact opposite and rejoiced! I'd take issue on specific detal regarding Paul, but I catch your drift so strongly here that I'm inclined to set that difference of interpretation aside.

So I wanted to offer these two basic notions:

* Persecution comes in the need to convert. It is inherent: the message is that one is unfit by the nature of their birth to satisfy the God who required that birth. It seems paradoxical, and overlooks the issues of the Christian house, whereby people become unfit by adopting and then abusing the word of God. In the meantime, the situation is changing enough at Sciforums that I'm inclined to simply watch that part of it for the time being. It does seem that, even if we're not coming together on certain points herein, we are at least seeing the same issues.

* My objection to Christians feeling persecuted is a broader one, and actually transcends the little snippets of your posts I've included here. Look at your fellow Christians at Sciforums, as I know you have been. And look out at your fellow Christians in your community. Perhaps the American roadshow comedy of stump evangelism is as hilarious and scary to Christians internationally as it is to domestic infidels. Here, though, it's frightening. Creation/Evolution, abortion, prayer in school--the common American experience is that almost everything one chooses to do will find some objection from Christianity. Scientific research has enough moral questions to answer about methodology without complicating the mix with the imposition of a single theology. That scientists don't bow to Christian ethical demands is publicly expressed here as persecutory. That the public won't eliminate the practice of abortion, and the focus of the pro-Choice movement on Christian objections is called persecutory. To not ban a book from a library because a Christian demands it is viewed as persecutory by many of the faith. I need more than my two hands to count the number of Christian-derived moral ballot measures put before Oregon in the 1990's, and that was merely by the time I left in '96. Yet Christians express a sense of persecution because the society will not declare homosexuality illegal. Or their silly pornography measures: two concurrent measures on the '96 ballot both attempted the same goal: to codify the US Supreme Court ruling on pornography, with much focus on child pornography. Two things were wrong with these measures: 1) They accomplished nothing but a restatement of the legal standard; 2) They split the ticket and both failed; the combined numbers from each--assuming disparate approval via the split ticket--would have passed one. (This last assumption, that the numbers would have passed a single ballot measure does not account for the possibility that it was the same 35% of the voting population that voted for both.) Yet after this failure, Christians in Oregon expressed a sense of persecution: that hatred for Christians compelled people to build a sinful society merely to spite Christians.

Okay, they're not the most basic notions in the world: They do, hopefully, explain the nature of the statement to Lyndale which you have questioned.

But there are new field conditions to observe: I would be morally remiss if I chose not to find out what happens next. Good luck in that, sir.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Deadwood
07-05-01, 01:25 AM
Lyndale


There is "ONLY ONE WAY", "ONE PATH",...THAT LEADS TO GOD. "ONE". NOT 2 OR MORE. That path is by the Son of God, Jesus.

No problem there.


Jesus said... I am the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE, NO man commeth to the Father but by ME.

No problem here either.


Do you not understand this. Or ...do you think Jesus made a mistake and forgot something....?

Lyndale, I do not woship or pray to St Mary. She is blessed among women, but I only worship God. Lyndale, when was the last time you attended a church other than the one you go to? Was this church of a different denomination?

Am I deceived then to love all of my brothers and sisters? Am I deceived to love all peoples?

You see, all denominations are in agreeance on the black and white stuff. Its just the grey areas which divide. We all believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. That God is a triune God (Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

To give an example the Roman Catholic church and the Eastern Orthodox chuch are only seperated by three words. Only three words seperate them and yet there is hate between some of them, and excommunication between the two churches during some periods of time. I am protestant. I don't attend Mass at the Roman Catholic church but I do go and worship and pray with them.

In the words of one of my ministers. If you can't even bring yourself to go to another church, then you've got to examine yourself. At my church we are encouraged to attend other churches. Something you may not find in the US from what I've heard there is a lot of fighting between priests, ministers etc about other churches taking other peoples congregations. At least its not like that over here as far as I know.

Tiassa


Well, there's your 6/24/2001 contribution to this very topic:

That was actually Lyndales thread, not mine.


Such as here, where you basically declared that people are unfit for God's purposes as God made them. The implication being common to the notion of conversion, the purpose of evangelism and missionary work. Quite simply, the Christian declaration is that people--as God made them--are unfit. This undermines the entirety of salvation by making it a dog-and-pony show for God's amusement. To further this cruelty in the living world is persecutory.

It is actually because of Mankinds fall into sin, originally Mankind was created perfect, until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. However, God in all His grace provided us a way out. We need a sacrifice for our sins, just as the Old Testament tells us (Leviticus and Deutoronomy is a good source to read if you wish to look into this). This is why God sent his Son to save us. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is why we say that there is only one path, because He is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. :)


To bring you suffering? That's not persecutory?

Not totally sure what you meant, but suffering is part of the Christian life. This is why I don't complain.


Here, though, it's frightening. Creation/Evolution, abortion, prayer in school--the common American experience is that almost everything one chooses to do will find some objection from Christianity.

This is where it is hard for me to understand. Australia is a lot more easy going. I did do bible study in high school on a lunch time once a week, and you are allowed to pray at school. Muslims would pray on Friday, Christians could pray on wednesday and Friday morning which I didn't attend.


Scientific research has enough moral questions to answer about methodology without complicating the mix with the imposition of a single theology. That scientists don't bow to Christian ethical demands is publicly expressed here as persecutory. That the public won't eliminate the practice of abortion, and the focus of the pro-Choice movement on Christian objections is called persecutory. To not ban a book from a library because a Christian demands it is viewed as persecutory by many of the faith.

I think that scientists can research what they like. In fact, I'm thinking of donating my body to science when I die. I don't like abortion however, and I think if someone wants Euthanasia that is their choice and their entitled to it. Free will. I think that if the library wants to include Harry Potter into its bookshelf it can. I don't like the fact that people in the US can't pray in schools. Thats a bit silly. But I just want to make clear that I don't see it as persecution, this is why I don't want to be seen in this light and branded as one of those Christians that go around looking for persecution and when they can't find it, they go and blame some book in the library.

If I attended a school that wouldn't let you pray, I just wouldn't. As a Christian I am not above civil laws. However, there are certain exceptions, like proclaiming Christ. If their was a law saying you couldn't be Christian, I would not be abliged to follow that law.



Yet Christians express a sense of persecution because the society will not declare homosexuality illegal. Or their silly pornography measures: two concurrent measures on the '96 ballot both attempted the same goal: to codify the US Supreme Court ruling on pornography, with much focus on child pornography.

If you want to be homosexual, that is your choice. I once had a friend who was homosexual. If you want to view pornography, it is your choice again. I'm not neccessarily going to make it illegal, however, just as environmentalist groups can educate people about the effects of pollution, why can't I tell people that doing these things is wrong? However, I won't go around condemning, thats not what I'm here(in a general sense) for.

Thanks

Tiassa
07-05-01, 03:10 AM
Deadwood--


That was actually Lyndales thread, not mine.Whoops. My bad. Sorry.
It is actually because of Mankinds fall into sin, originally Mankind was created perfect, until Adam and Eve ate the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge. However, God in all His grace provided us a way out. We need a sacrifice for our sins, just as the Old Testament tells us (Leviticus and Deutoronomy is a good source to read if you wish to look into this). This is why God sent his Son to save us. He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament, and a perfect sacrifice for our sins. This is why we say that there is only one path, because He is the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. Bottom line: people who do not have the faith must change so that they do have the faith. God apparently charges interest on the "blessing" of life, for they are unworthy of him in the form that he has made them. I am, actually, familiar with Leviticus and Deuteronomy. It works fine when you're lost in the desert, but has less relevance in modern "civilization."
Not totally sure what you meant, but suffering is part of the Christian life. This is why I don't complain. In the context of your question: May I ask when have I whined about being persecuted and when have I hated people for having other beliefs?
This is where it is hard for me to understand. Australia is a lot more easy going. I did do bible study in high school on a lunch time once a week, and you are allowed to pray at school. Muslims would pray on Friday, Christians could pray on wednesday and Friday morning which I didn't attend. Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous here. The thing is that we have a history in this country of having forced children to pray. It took a Supreme Court decision to stop this. Ever since, Christians have blamed everything negative in American society on the removal of prayer from public school.
I think that scientists can research what they like. In fact, I'm thinking of donating my body to science when I die.I do wish someone would tell the Christians in this country that very idea. Cancer-fighting drugs were banned in this country for several years because they could be mixed with another drug to cause a miscarriage. Science in this country often has to deal with Christian-centered objections.
I don't like abortion however, and I think if someone wants Euthanasia that is their choice and their entitled to it. Nobody likes abortion. The best way to reduce the number of abortions is to change the economic patterns that create its need. In this country, however, the Christian prescription is abstinance. Objections to sex ed, condom distribution programs, birth control information, and abortion. Somehow American Christians have this idea that if you tell kids not to have orgasms, they won't. Of euthanasia--in Oregon, Christians assert that you are a victim if you're granted your right to die. I don't get it myself, but then again, a lifetime of that very sentiment keeps me well-distanced from Christianity.
But I just want to make clear that I don't see it as persecution, this is why I don't want to be seen in this light and branded as one of those Christians that go around looking for persecution and when they can't find it, they go and blame some book in the library. That's well and fine and the message is received. Understand, though, that in the US, to disagree with a Christian is apparently to persecute them.
If I attended a school that wouldn't let you pray, I just wouldn't.As long as we're clear: you're allowed to pray, you're just not allowed to make it an official school function--prayer clubs, Bible clubs, pre-game public prayers, &c.
As a Christian I am not above civil laws. However, there are certain exceptions, like proclaiming Christ. If their was a law saying you couldn't be Christian, I would not be abliged to follow that law.And to be exceptionally clear on this: In the United States, Christians are the loudest advocates of censorship. Into the 1970's, you could get arrested in this country for practicing certain religions: Zsusanna Budapest was prosecuted in California for being a witch. Decency laws in this country generally conform to Christian standards if they conform to any religious standard at all, and most of them do.
If you want to be homosexual, that is your choice. I once had a friend who was homosexual. If you want to view pornography, it is your choice again. I'm not neccessarily going to make it illegal, however, just as environmentalist groups can educate people about the effects of pollution, why can't I tell people that doing these things is wrong? However, I won't go around condemning, thats not what I'm here(in a general sense) for. Well enough. The point actually was that Christians felt persecuted for blowing their own politics out their ass. It was just a further example of what we've come to expect of Christianity in this country.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

Lyndale
07-05-01, 11:28 AM
If your going to respond to what I have said, then at least do it with truth. I did not complain about anything. I stated fact, only.
It is no wonder why there isnt more participation. You twist and manipulate everyones words. You dance around the truth and manipulate it with your twisted lies.

Keep up the "bad" work tiassa...you make your master proud.

and...to the other blind one....Your religion is an occult. Mary is not the path to the Father. Take your whole religion and compare it to this....Out of all you do inside your buildings of evil...e.i. count beads, worship mary, worship statues, call a "man" father...and the rest of the evil you do......did Jesus do any of these?....You know the answer is NO.................then why in the world do you do it. Don't you see the deception that as blinded millions? I put the question to you again...."If Jesus didnt do it, then why do you do it, did He forget something when he was on earth...did He make a mistake"....

I dare you to answer that last couple of questions.

Lyndale.

"Words twisted, come out of the mouth of Liars".

Tiassa
07-05-01, 11:53 AM
Lyndale:


I did not complain about anything. I stated fact, only.Oh, well ... in that case, I should ignore your lament, which I accidentally attributed to Deadwood?
Read in this forum the thoughts of what people think about Christians and watch the replies that this post gets or better yet...go to any atheists chat room and ask them what religion do atheists hate most?...you’ll see...maybe.I would assert here that your anger is misplaced: people don't adopt a random urge to counter Christianity; that urge arises from the need to get its tyranny off one's back. What religion do atheists "hate" the most? You might as well ask What religion meddles with atheism the most? I'm quite sure the atheists would leave Christianity alone if the religion would lighten up on everyone. Someone asked here recently about the focus on Christianity: atheists are just as snappy toward Islamic or Jewish or Wiccan pressures, except that these pressures just don't come up as often. The determination of the Christian population to either actively work against other people in the world, or to sit idly by and permit this denunciation of people, or to support those denunciations at a ballot box is disheartening at least, sickening at par. So if you think atheists "hate" Chrisitans the most, have you ever wondered why?
It is no wonder why there isnt more participation. So you're blaming Sciforums' growth on me? Maybe I should ask Dave for a job.
You twist and manipulate everyones words. No, not everyone's. Very few people's, in fact. If you can't see the ramifications of the things you say, perhaps you'd better give more thought to your words. Just because it sounds like a neato thing to say doesn't mean it works; little manipulation, if any, is needed: you posit such irresponsible theology that all I need do is point out the potential results. Since anything short of an outright faith declaration shines less brightly than you would like, perhaps you should polish the actual logical rhetoric instead of flinging out burning gobs of theological crap that disappear to smoke before they reach the target.
You dance around the truth and manipulate it with your twisted lies.Everyone's a critic. Hey, if you think you understand my choreography, demonstrate it.
Keep up the "bad" work tiassa...you make your master proud.Ooh. Is that supposed to hurt? More directly, is that supposed to mean anything?

Lyndale, I can honestly say, based on observation of the immediate moment and the state of your posts, that you have no idea what's taking place around you. Of course I expect you to disagree with me; your faith obliges you to think me inferior. But you should know that you're proving one of my longer-standing points right now, and not necessarily by what you're saying to me directly. Think carefully, look closely. If Jesus weeps, it's because he's tired of bleeding for such senselessness as you preach.

--Tiassa :cool:

Lyndale
07-05-01, 12:33 PM
even in your own reply ....you state the obviouse...twisting of words.....
first you say you do and in the next breath you say you dont...
Can you even tell...when your comming and going?

Lyndale.:confused:

Tiassa
07-05-01, 12:48 PM
you state the obviouse...twisting of words..... As I said, demonstrate the method.

--Tiassa :cool:

Lyndale
07-05-01, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by tiassa
As I said, demonstrate the method.

--Tiassa :cool:

All anyone has to do is read above...it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...nor does it take an essay of hot hair...either...understand?


Lyndale.

Tiassa
07-05-01, 03:12 PM
All anyone has to do is read above...it don't take a rocket scientist to figure it out...nor does it take an essay of hot hair...either...understand? So hair jokes aside ... are you assuming that all people share your contextual interpretation? This is something that I accuse among the negative effects of a priori religious faith. The reason I say to demonstrate the method is so that you're absolutely clear on what you're complaining about, and not sitting smugly in the false assumptiion that we all know what you're talking about.

Get it?

--Tiassa :cool:

Deadwood
07-06-01, 06:20 AM
and...to the other blind one....

Emerald, Tiassa HELP!!! I think I'm next on her hit list on who to call satan!!!


Your religion is an occult.

A protestant, who would of thought?


Mary is not the path to the Father.

Did I say that ST Mary is? No!!!


Take your whole religion and compare it to this....Out of all you do inside your buildings of evil...e.i. count beads, worship mary, worship statues, call a "man" father...and the rest of the evil you do......did Jesus do any of these?....

Hmmm, I don't count beads (whatever that means?), I don't worship St Mary, afterall, I did tell Lyndale I only worship my Lord and Saviour (Father, Son and Holy Spirit), I wouldn't even bow down to a statue, call a "man" father, so what am I supposed to call my dad, by his first name? Even St Paul saw Timothy as his son

Here are the references just for you.

1 Corinthians ch 4 vs 17

17
For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

Phillipians ch 2 vs 22

22
But you know that Timothy has proved himself, because as a son with his father he has served with me in the work of the gospel.

1 Timothy ch 1 vs 2

2
To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1 Timothy ch 1 vs 18 (two references in the same chapter :) )

18
Timothy, my son, I give you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by following them you may fight the good fight,

2 Timothy ch 1 vs 1-3.

1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, according to the promise of life that is in Christ Jesus,
2
To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3
I thank God, whom I serve, as my forefathers did, with a clear conscience, as night and day I constantly remember you in my prayers.

I would also like to note that Paul refers to those who served God before him as his fore fathers.


You know the answer is NO.................

Actually, I'm sure Jesus would have called his Earthly father Joseph abba(dad)or a more formal father. but I see that you are getting at people calling a Priest Father Joe or Father Pete. I doh't think there's anything wrong with this. They are like a spiritual father as Paul was to Timothy.


then why in the world do you do it.

WHO IS TO SAY I DO???????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Roman Catholics may do stuff like this, but I do not include myself.

God loves Roman Catholics just as well as Protestants, Eastern Orthodox, Pentacostals etc

I will give an example. I don't know exactly when this happened, probably 3-7 years ago. Not too sure. But a very spiritual woman from our church (anglican, church of england, Protestant etc) went to Yugoslavia. I'm not sure but I think God would have told her to go, my mum didn't tell me all of the background. However, when she was in Yugoslavia, she was present at one of the visions of St Mary. My mum (not the woman by the way) told me that she said that all of the little children as soon as they saw her ran straight over to her. the vision of St Mary then said ( I can't say the context but this is what my mum told me) that it would be brother against brother ( this is in Yugoslavia). This prophecy has come to pass fulfilled though I'm not sure if it has been fully fulfilled as their is still things going on in Yugoslavia. But this vision involved more than one person, including children running over. The woman said that it was just beautiful, when she appeared seeing all of the children running over.

Now, she came back to Australia, and some time later was told to go and join a Roman catholic church. Any Roman catholic church. and she has been obedient. even when I asked her ( I didn't know at the time that she was the woman) which church she went to, she was kind of hush hush, but she knew that I was involved with the Roman Catholic church.

You see Lyndale to judge people is not a good thing. you call me blind, you call me deceived. Yet I do not do the things which you have said. Except I don't mind calling a Priest, minister, pastor etc father, it is a sign of respect. Even people in old testament times when they met an angel called the angel lord. See Genesis. It is a sign of respect. I ask you to learn some respect, stop judging people by what little you know of them. all I did was say I love my Roman Catholic brothers and sisters, and say I worship with them, and suddenly I am deceived.

If people want to worship Mary it is up to them, they are old enough to count themselves responsible for their own actions. I certainly do not hate them for it.

I think I asked the last questions by what I said above!

Now I didn't want to do this, but it looks like I'm going to have to, so that you can judge for yourself who you are.

Now let me ask you a couple of questions.

Why do you assume these things about me? Why do you call me blind? Why do you call the people on this board Satan?

By who's authority do you say such things and make such accusations?

You call people tares, yet you care none for them, that they may be saved. I think you just want to be right.

Preach for the former love. Being christian does not give you a right to call people satan, nor judge Christians who are just trying to do what is right. Explain what is right, and do not be so quick to judge. Who are you to think you are the Lord? If He wants to say I am deceived He will tell me, or find someone else to. However, I do not think from my message of unification and love that I would find rebuke. Always, a prophecy will be given in an encouraging manner. I am not stubborn to edify myself by an means. It is one thing to read the bible. It is another to understand. And by far, it is another thing to apply it to your life. As I am trying and striving to apply it to mine. Just as it is one thing to go around calling people tares, or influenced by satan. However, would you bring any consideration to actually thinking they are just trying to do their best and please God. Just because people do not follow everything that you believe does not give you an excuse to start abusing them. What makes you so special? I love the whole body of Christ, do not condemn me for this and especially do not find any pleasure in doing so.

Thank-you.

Deadwood
07-06-01, 07:26 AM
Tiassa, I'm getting a clearer view of where your coming from. I have a suggestion. This is not being said in a spiteful tone either. If you don't like wingers, you should come live in Australia. We don't like wingers over here. You can buy two of our dollars for one of yours, and I think your average wage is the same as ours. You are quite welcome, if immigration will let you. I could put in the good word for you to our immigration minister if you like?

Experience this place, and you shouldn't have any hassles with christians at the ballot box. Over here it is compulsory to vote, so it won't just be the religious few who vote. However, our Arch Bishop for my city is now the governor general (Queens representative) here you will see a Christian trying to help people less fortunate instead of themselves. Watch and see. we are a different breed over here. Easy going (sounds like you), by your member statement, and not all of us shout persecution. In fact, one of my church ministers wants persecution. There was talk recently about banning the church over here or something. And there was talk about the church not existing here because of it. All my minister said was RUBBISH, the church needs a good persecution. He said he wouldn't mind spending some time in jail. I guess I wouldn't either, for the Gospel. What I am getting at, is that we are a different breed over here. Do you exaggerate when you talk about Christianity in the states? I'm sure not all Christians are like that.

Thanks

SweetM
07-19-01, 08:51 PM
Hello All,

In response to Shady_Reaper and other unbelievers that have posted here, I am not going to drop theology on you, or even pelt you with scripture at this point. It is obvious that you know the Christian answers to the questions you asked and don't agree. I live my life for Christ, the Bible is my truth source, and I would be happy to get theological anytime, anyplace.
For today, however, I want to let you know why I live my life for God, why my faith will never fade, and why I am proud to be a Jesus freak.

God saved me. He loved me so that He sent His son to be the atonement for sin that I could never come close to erasing on my own, even if I lived a perfect life for the rest of eternity.

That is what I believe. The proof of this is in my life. When I came to Christ, I was homeless and self destructive, not expected to live past the age of 21. I was pregnant, and my baby's father was an abusive drug dealer that did not want me to continue my pregnancy, my days were spent avoiding him and his friends so I could protect the life inside of me. God found me there and gave me a home, a family, and a purpose. My daughter and I are healthy and happy today. I, whom nobody expected to live past 21, am a junior in college and active in my church.
God has delivered me from sin, abuse, homelessness, alcohol, cancer and other health problems. He gives me strength and purpose. I would be happy to share my testimony in detail with anyone interested.

teerum
07-25-01, 03:28 PM
So much was said, so many strong beliefs have been expressed, I keep my mind open to all who speak, I am proud of that ability because it helps me to have a greater understanding of the world and everyone in it. I am glad that you are all here on this page speaking about this, however there is much anger I sense. Anger leads to irrationality and extremism, obviously I understand why there is anger, but I can tell you something that many of you, who seem to have different feelings do not really understand. There is a common thread that runs through ALL of us, think about it, how can there not be?? We are all here as one organism if you will, can we agree that we were all put here the same way? Think about how small we are...just for a moment. Look up at night and realize how small we are. ALL of us. We all must be carfeful not to be to quick to crtisize one another for what we believe. Once we antagonize one another for what we believe, we enclose ourselves in our own little box. I hate cliiches but,,,,,think out of the box. Shady Reaper....I really do not understand God in many ways, or who God is to me, or if he/she is the God that I was raised to belive in. I can go on and on and on and I would enjoy and welcome ANYONES challange as to who God is, or if there is a GOD.....but one thing I do know is that I ... and all of you....are part of something that is so incredible our minds cannot truly comprehend it, that is why we search for something to believe in, cause with out a belief some of us would go insane.....just by not knowing. Let yourselves go and we will begin to understand each other.

Caleb
07-25-01, 04:30 PM
BobbyLee, SweetM:

Amen!

~Caleb

Tiassa
07-25-01, 07:47 PM
Bobby Lee
Are you suggesting that a million years of sand washing up on a beach can make a gold plated timex???Are you suggesting God needs a watch? Without someone to need to tell the time, what need has the Universe of a watch? Is a watch a part of nature like the gold and iron that makes it?

What you overlook here is manifold:

* Watch snowflakes, or anything you want in the Universe: what appears naturally in the shape of a cog? Not much.

* Were you born with clothes on, or did God make your skivvies Himself?

To take the metaphysical approach, I would assert that you're thinking too small and relevant to yourself. A beach? No. Why? Because the elements that go into a watch (gold, iron, &c ...) do not occur frequently enough according to natural conditions. Of course, where would you get the crystal face? Is there enough silicon and lead occurring alongside the iron and rock? But in the metaphysical, yes, the Universe can create a watch. It does this the same way it creates various other substances not fundamental to nature: through its effects. Just as wasps make a paper-like pulp to construct a nest out of, humans manipulate their environment to create a watch. It's slightly more complex according to most human standards because we recognize "tool use" as including something not inherent to the body, such as a group of chimpanzees observed using sticks and long grass to eat; they would put the stick into a hole in a dirt ridge and withdraw the thing, teeming with ants, which they then consumed. So tool use such as that required to make a watch is a little less inherent than, say, a gland that produces formic acid in your body. But yes, the Universe did eventually evolve to produce a gold watch. There's just not enough resources for it at the beach, is all.
Are you saying that you have to pick the rose apart to findout why its beautiful?Beauty is subjective, something one determines for oneself; much like God in that sense.

Rather, you pick apart the rose to see how it lives to become beautiful. When you've done that, you can feed your subjective craving for beauty and grow fine, fine roses.

Deadwood
If you don't like wingers, you should come live in Australia.To be honest, that's a concession to the people who have oppressed in the past. One of the most ironic phrases in our free country is "America: love it or leave it." This phrase usually only comes up when people don't want to send their children away to murder and die on foreign shores.

But that's the thing: we allege ourselves to be free. One should, by proclaimed theory, have the ability to effect change in the society. This is why it was so important to suppress Communism in this country: the greedy saw the potential of being outdone and winning the sentiment of the nation.

In the Free Thoughts forum, I mumbled something or another about Patriotism, and that's part of the question: Is it patriotic to support one's nation blindly, or to do what one thinks is best for it?

To flee this land to escape the dullard malaise Christianity has cast over the nation would be to harm it: I would be helping these Christians one step closer to the homogony they lust so dearly. They won't be happy until everyone agrees with them, and if they have to chase people out to do it, they will. This is not freedom, and is why I'm known at Sciforums for declaring the paradox of Christians demanding their rights so that they can effect the removal of those same rights from others. Such silliness is, in fact, part and parcel of American Christianity. Considering the diverse heritage of this nation, and the strength that diversity lends, to leave this nation to homogony would destroy it. And that would have demonstrable negative effect on the world, which would violate my own principle of aiding the species.

I also wanted to mention that I did see you attempting to address the internal ills of the faith; I sort of beat around the bush, as such, before. And yes, that's exactly what happens when you approach that segment of the faithful--especially in the US--you are determined to be under the influence of Satan ... maybe I should have said it earlier, though, as you've taken to attributing people's ideas to Satan.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

dan1123
07-25-01, 09:13 PM
It does this the same way it creates various other substances not fundamental to nature: through its effects. Just as wasps make a paper-like pulp to construct a nest out of, humans manipulate their environment to create a watch.


Are you suggesting that humanity is actually <i>part of nature?</i>

You should really talk to some of those "man is evil" environmentalists :D...

dan1123
07-25-01, 09:16 PM
They won't be happy until everyone agrees with them,


I think it would be more accurately that they won't be happy until everyone has heard about Jesus (in a manner biased toward Him--but modern society does a good job providing the balance)

Tiassa
07-25-01, 11:11 PM
I think it would be more accurately that they won't be happy until everyone has heard about Jesus (in a manner biased toward Him--but modern society does a good job providing the balance)History, as an academic summary, and personal experience tell me that Christianity is anticultural and seeks homogony.
Are you suggesting that humanity is actually part of nature?Your seeming incredulity leads me to counter, Do you think humanity is separate from nature?

Of course we're part of nature. Is human life artificial?

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:

teerum
07-26-01, 08:58 AM
Bobby Lee,

Cute little quotes......you have said NOTHING......but as with many you come across in life, there are those who feel they can explain away just about anything, in one swoop, by saying something clever.

I cannot comment on your quotes, Bobby because I really do not know what they mean, in terms of what I originally wrote, I mean I can guess...and speak in generalities....as you did, but what a waste of time that would be. But I will comment on some of their implications.......what is Beauty Bobby? What is it about a rose that someone might say is beautiful...I have them, I love them, but you know what? I LOVE spiders also......and Ants........and thunderstorms.....

My point is this:

Nature to me, is the most obvious evidence that we are all bound together, whether we like it or not, As soon as any one person or any one group....separate themselves from another, to the point that they feel they are RIGHT and the other Group is WRONG..........they become ignorant, EVEN IF THEY ARE RIGHT!!!!.....my point is.....as a society we need to take a step back and first think about why we are diverse in our beliefs....and before we move on and take positions, we need to understand the Common thread......that runs through all of us. I am not talking about GOD ..YET.....I am not talking about Good and Evil YET........I am talking about people realizing how ridiculous and self absorbed it is to think they are above Nature, and the fact that nature is sending us a Message......there is an anthropologist (who's name escapes me) who referred to society as one large organism......I believe this comparison is important. I don't have time to go on right now, But I do not care who you are and what you believe there is NO ESCAPE from who we are.....
We are the SAME.........Can anyone disagree??? (and not that anyone on this page is ........ but this question is for EVIL also)

teerum
07-27-01, 08:16 AM
Just one Reply??? Well, you have started to say something Bobby, however the jury is still out on how significant it is to my point.

I am not asking you to agree with anything I say, that is why I posed the question, can anyone Disagree?

I am trying to find some point in what you said in your response, but I truly do not get it. All things are common to all men and Women yes!!!! Depending on what we are talking about. We live and breathe under the same sky...........(if you would get to the point when you speak more, your sarcasim would rise to the level of rationality.,......and your point would be clearer) Your comment on Privalige......do you mean materialism??? We were talking about religion???? Creation......existance!!! I REALLY do not get the point of the Apathy comment.....another cute little quote.......Bobby...........these are not your own are they??? Boy would that be impressive!!!!!

Here is one of mine........"I would rather be hated than misunderstood" M.I. I have to go back to work now.......

felix
07-27-01, 02:21 PM
I read this in a book:

The most preposterous notion that homo sapien has ever come up with is God, creator of all the Universes and everything in them, wants our sacharine adoration, can be swayed by our prayers, and becomes petulant if He doesn't receive this flattery. Yet it's this belief that funds the largest, oldest and least productive industry on earth.

The second most preposterous notion is that copulation is inherently sinful.

end of quote.

I read those in a book of fiction, but there was more truth in that book than I've ever witnessed from a doctrined religion.

teerum
07-27-01, 02:41 PM
I like that Felix.......Thank you Bobby, we are getting closer to a conversation..

Felix: Tis true that God was created by Man to stay SANE........think about it, it makes sense and we do not have to re-invent the wheel in this regard, just choose from one of many beliefs.........(or some of us need to choose)

Bobby,

I don't think YOU are empty, I just like to get to the point.

OK there is a difference between Spirituality and Religion. I agree, I know the difference and understand it.....

Here is some of my own truth, I was raised a catholic. I am NOT a practicing catholic. for many reasons, I will not bother going into. At some point in my life, I decided to FREE myself from EVERYTHING I was raised to believe, because I KNEW that deep inside, is not only what I believe, but it also might be where the truth lies. The ONE Truth. I am not at the point where I can explain it in full, but I am closer than I was before I freed myself.

I am closer just by lettiing go of Much of what I was taught. and with this letting go, comes a better understanding of how NATURE (there is that word again) is part of the tell tale truth. I am NOT a witch, however some of the earth religions are on a more sensible path than most others.................anyone have any comments.....

I like your quotes Bobby, here is another one of mine

"What is real and what is perceived is convincing either way, but still only the truth is left, after the ignorance of ego has gone away"

teerum
07-27-01, 03:41 PM
Have a good weekend Bobby,

You see how, even though we started out at odds.....we now have set upon common ground......NOW if you are interested we can start to debate...........or talk..........or come to some realizations........

Science and the "Creator" are on a converging path that will one day become close enough to connect. I just made that up....no big deal, but it is what I believe.

teerum
07-31-01, 08:11 AM
I'm not here to be nice stupid, get a clue, you have missed the point.

csreech
08-28-01, 07:39 PM
Everyone is entitled to they're own opinion so everyone stop arguind and criticizing. Thank You!!

felix
08-29-01, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by csreech
Everyone is entitled to they're own opinion so everyone stop arguind and criticizing. Thank You!!

Everyone is entitled to argue and criticize too. At least that's my opinion. HA!!

TheDarkLotus
09-07-01, 11:54 PM
I do like God but in my mind Jesus is the fukin faggot.

If Jesus is God and God created all then he created the homosexual meaning theres a little fag in all of us.Virgin mary was a hermaphrodite she had the baby wit out the man.Also the bible is main bullshit,It is the main dictationship in christianity also I really wonder ir Hell is better than heaven cuz u can commit all ur sins in hell and sins get u outta heaven also whut if God dont look liek how we say he does and God either or the Devil.All Im sayin is Jesus is a bitch ass hoe muthafucka,Dont beleive in him he died thats it hes dead u cant bring back the dead so fuck hi on the cross whut makes him special,today u would probably be shot if u were dressed as Jesus.

tony1
09-08-01, 04:58 PM
*Originally posted by TheDarkLotus
u can commit all ur sins in hell*

You'll be dead.

glaucon
09-08-01, 05:39 PM
While it disturbs me to say anything that could possibly be interpreted as supporting tony1, I am forced to point out here that the whole question is moot.
Shady_Reaper: assuming a god exists, you could not possibly know its mind, purposes, whatever. To automatically assume that it 'sucks', is comparable to the kind of ignorance your hated bible-thumpers exhibit.

bryce
12-23-02, 02:25 PM
I don't think that "God" sucks. I think that religion sucks in general. And I don't mean Christianity or Jesus. I mean all of them: Jesus, Allah, Budda, the Pope, Mohammed, everyone.

So far every religion in the world has been wrong. From the Greeks who beleived in Zeus, to the Native Americans who beleived in the Sun God and Tree God and whatever. They all though that the had the right religion but sooner or later the religion dies out. Sooner or later Christianity, Islam, everything will be gone and there will be another religion to replace it and it will be wrong too. If everything has been wrong in the past, what the hell make religious people think that they finally have the "answer" now.

I'm also sick of religion holding back science. Extreme religious people are always afraid of change and don't want to be proven wring. Like how that Catholic Church said that everything revolved around the Earth and wouldn't listen to any other theories. Religion is just a bunch of unproven theories and some guy long ago made up. Sure maybe Jesus existed but how the hell does the guy who wrote the Bible know he is the son of "God" or anything else. Prove that Adam and Eve existed, prove that heaven is up there somewhere.

teerum
12-23-02, 02:42 PM
You are Correct Bryce, on a couple of levels your observation in part is a product of arrogance, however to the absolution of many of the believers, they are simply seeking comfort to satisfy an innate need that we all have....to understand our existance.

I am believe of sorts, however the first thing I believe is that NO ONE on the face of this planet really knows the truth. AND to further back up what you say.....if anyone person/group comes the closet to understanding,... it is the scientists who believe in their research and discovery.......after all........creation lies within scientific discoveries.......such as..........Unstable molecules of Atoms......crashing into one another inside a peice of unranium.....if anyone group does NOT believe a discovery like that is a direct link....to understanding creation they are just plain STUPID............

felix
12-24-02, 09:20 AM
Wow, It's been a long time since I posted anything here. I must say, however, that it's good to see new posts by people who think for themselves rather than the mindless chatter of people like tony1 who would prefer to let 2000 years of translations speak for them.

I would tend to agree that it's religion that truly sucks. If there IS a god, it probably doesn't suck. After all, it would be the reason we're all here to debate about it.

Very religious is synonymous with Very afraid.

teerum
12-24-02, 09:44 AM
I have not posted in a while either Felix, I like having these discussions, however I tend to sometimes get tired of some who like to break out the vocabulary book, say as many obscure words as possible to sound ultra intelligent and really never make a point. (plus I have busy job)

I am in the midst of completing a writing project on the subject of religion right now.....and what more appropriate time with so many trying to comprehend the mind set of fanatic muslims. I do not want to even go there right now since I do not have the time for a long discussion. However, I will say that there are many groups who might be AS blind.....just not as dangerous..... Any group who separates themselves from humanity as a whole.....is arrogant........there are differences among us, there are different choices we make, we may not approve of one another on different levels.....but it seems so difficult for anyone of us (including myself at times) to accept "psychology" as a surface reason for our differences and NOT that we are essentially different......

felix
12-24-02, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by teerum

I am in the midst of completing a writing project on the subject of religion right now.....and what more appropriate time with so many trying to comprehend the mind set of fanatic muslims.

Don't forget about the mindset of fanatic Christians. Like George W. Bush. I believe he's much more dangerous than ANY terrorist group.

Terrorists can only make small isolated strikes (at least so far). Georgy has a huge, powerful military AND a whole bunch of nuclear missiles AND a whole bunch of chemical weapons AND a whole bunch of biological nasties at his disposal. And he'd REALLY like to use them.

Also, don't forget that WE created Al Qeada by training, supplying, and funding Osama bin laden and the Taliban in the 1980's. WE showed them how to stay hidden, WE showed them how to choose targets, and WE showed them how to take out those targets. Then we just left them to take on the world's only other super power at the time all by themselves. And they won.

We also put Saddaan Hussein in power in Iraq.

We love to help overthrow governments all over the world and we love to put people in power who are even worse than what they HAD.

And George W. LOVES to play the roll of the bully. He's the one that scares ME.

teerum
12-24-02, 10:27 AM
Ok, Felix, I concede that to a large degree what has gone on with the US and the middle east leaves us with a stench of hypocrisy today, however this was started by Britian long ago.....there are larger reasons why as a nation we must control the region, and depending on how the wind blew over the years we had to adapt and chance our policy. I DON'T like it EITHER......believe me, I am a peaceful person, hate war......however in consideration of who we are dealing with we MUST take certain action to protect our way of life......Bush is not a terrorist......

felix
12-26-02, 09:46 AM
True that Bush is not a terrorist. However, he is exactly what CREATES terrorists.

To think that you can snuff out terrorism by waging "war" on terrorists is just assinine.

Take Isreal for example. They've been waging war on terrorists since they BECAME Isreal. And what have they ever gotten out if it? MORE terrorists.

The idea that the same approach will yield different results is stupid.

And war with Iraq? Surely the Bush administration doesn't really believe it's actually fooling anyone by saying it's because Iraq is a threat to the world. The rest of the world knows it's about oil. Saddaam Hussein MIGHT be able to threaten Iran or kawait. But Isreal has certainly shown they're quite capable of handling him.

And the U.S. and allied forces defeated him SOUNDLY 12 years ago. How is a military that falls so easily REALLY a threat to the WORLD. It's just a bunch of propaganda mumbo jumbo being used as an excuse to take control of oil. I don't like the idea of sending our troops to kill and die for the sake of oil execs pockets.

I'm no passifist, but I'm no bully either. And Bush IS a bully.

teerum
12-26-02, 09:57 AM
Felix,

There is more at stake here than meets the eye...the US has to keep their hands in the pot to prevent China and Russia from gaining economic power over the region and the world. IT is About oil, but there is a larger picture.....When Britian lost control over the Suez Canal.....it was clear they also lost much of their power and became a much weaker state. We have to be careful of that......I contest that while it seems we are a warring nation. In essence we are also quite benevolant in the sense that we are not invading China or Russia just because we CAN......if we let our guard down....I do NOT have faith that China and Russia would NOT try and take over to change our way of life.........It is about World Economics and preserving our way of life....

felix
12-26-02, 10:49 AM
But don't you see, Teerum? We want to invade Iraq JUST because we can.

We CAN'T just invade China or Russia or Pakistan or India or any other country that already has nuclear weapons because they would pose too much of a threat.

You're not convinced that China or Russia might try to take over to change our way of life, but that's exactly what WE'RE trying to do to everyone else. How does it make it better to be the AGGRESSOR in such a situation. In my mind it makes it worse, because then WE become THE enemy. WE become tyrants.

It's not about preserving our current economic status in the world. We could leave things just as they are, and continue buying oil from Iraq just like we have been, and keep a PEACEFUL status quo.

It's about gaining more power than we have. It's more profitable to have absolute control over the oil than to continue buying it.

We aren't in danger of LOSING anything if we don't go to war. But by ALL indications our economy will suffer greatly if we DO go to war. Not to mention what it will do to our already diminishing cridibility with the rest of the world if we go to war without UN consent.

Have you not noticed how successfully President Bush has been pissing of EVERY other country in the world, except MAYBE Britain?

teerum
12-26-02, 11:15 AM
Felix,

There are those who believe in isolation. There are those who believe that the US should not have even become involved in WW2. (In which case we would all be speaking German)

The isolationist/non aggresive attitude we had prior to 9/11 lead to the death of all those people. (Maybe I am still a little shell shocked since I was in the middle of it) I am sorry Felix, but please consider what happened on US soil that likely involves Iraq. Do you really think that Bush would simply invade if he did not have a great amount of intelligence that indicates Iraq is a danger? Rumsfeld said it the best......he said ' Prior to 9/11 if we would have told the public...we needed to invade Afghanistan and/or go after these alleged terrorists........there would be those who would say.....we were the aggressor and that we are unjustly going after these people with no proof, then 9/11 occurred......NOW we HAVE the proof, we are telling the American people this is a PROBLEM... and we are again receiving oppostion....were you in agreement with Richard Gear also? How many times do you need to get punched in the face before you strike back? or would you rather just sit back and wait for someone to come and kill you? Felix........I agree that US policy is not perfect....I agree that the world is not perfect, however like it or not, there are MANY intelligent folks in the Govt. who are privy to information that you and I do not have at our finger tips. It is sort of like saying you believe in GOD, when you actually do not have any proof that God exists (where this conversation started)

We cannot afford to take chances on Faith,,,,,,,and turn our backs.......

matnay
12-26-02, 03:57 PM
I too believe that God sucks. There are so may reasons why, but I will try to name the major ones:

1) Why does God send people to hell? He created us. We are his mistake- so why doesn't he send himself to hell. Isn't he god enough to stand up and take responsibility for his creations? Or does he think that the free will he "blessed" us with puts the responsibility on us? I don't think so! If free will causes God's creation to turn sinfull, then maybe God should have perfected his gift of free will before "blessing" us with it. If free will causes me to go to Hell and suffer for ever, then it seems to me that free will is inherently evil... not myself.

2) I don't remember asking God to create me(I realize the paradox. No need to point it out). Had I been informed by the all-knowing God that existing as a human with free will would most likely cause me too one day go to Hell, I definately would have opted not to be created as a human. I would have rather been made to be a dog or bird. Or maybe God gets off by seeing his creations suffer.

3)If Jesus was morally far superior to God's other children(us), then why didn't he create us all that way? What was so right about Jesus. He must have been "blessed" with a far superior, bug-free version of free will. When is God going to start updating the rest of us with Free-Will v2.0. Or again- I guess that God might be getting off by watching us ruin ourselves.

4)Why should I thank God for my meals? He put me on this earth, and he DARN well better put some food on this earth too. I don't think it's asking too much. Besides, if God starved us to death, we wouldn't live long enough to send ourselves to hell. And I think it's becoming obvious that God wouldn't want that.

There's many more reason's I could list why we should all hate God, but unfortunately, God made me lazy as well as sinful.

Gino
12-26-02, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
There are many reasons god sucks here are a few of them feel free to post your own reasons.
1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

This is humorous. I'm a christian, but it still is humorous. Ok, let break it down. Ever single thing if analyzed closely is more self centered than the most greedy megadollar preacher. Why? Not only are these desires self seeking, but lack any desire to take personal responsibility for ones actions. You see, people who are and practice irresponsibility would do anything for self gratification, including sell their own mother. When people attack christians, they don't wish to take into account christians are like everyone else. They don't take into account they at least strive to live a better christ centered life, instead of a practicing well honed self centered one. You know what? That is ok. Actually you've brightened my day. Everytime we are derided, attacked, spit on, looked down on, victimized by crime, etc. our faith becomes exponentially stronger. Guess what? Your fighting a fight that cant be won! Did anyone tell you that? Let me be the first.

Gino

Xev
12-26-02, 09:22 PM
That is ok. Actually you've brightened my day. Everytime we are derided, attacked, spit on, looked down on, victimized by crime, etc

What a coincidence! Being derided and victimized brightens my day, too! Why, just add a "beaten and degraded" to that, and a bottle of Grand Marnier, and I'd be happy as a lark!

But really, that is such bullshit. Your idiotic cult has spilled oceans of blood. You ain't the ones being persecuted, the people who stand against your obscene myths are.


Your fighting a fight that cant be won!

Oh yes it shall. You cannot keep what is good and godlike in man down forever.

Gino
12-27-02, 12:37 AM
[But really, that is such bullshit. Your idiotic cult has spilled oceans of blood. You ain't the ones being persecuted, the people who stand against your obscene myths are.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Yaaaaaa, please keep it up guy. Show your true colors. I don't give a rat what you say about us christians. This I learned long ago. Why do you make such crass statements. Feel powerless against not only an idea, but a living God? Or is it fear? There is no reason to harbor such hate in your heart, if you know who to look to.

No fear christianity:)

Gino

Xev
12-27-02, 01:34 AM
Gino:

Oh Yaaaaaa, please keep it up guy.

Not a guy.


Show your true colors.

I have a fading tan. I have been using this artificial tanner recently, so it's not so bad.


I don't give a rat what you say about us christians.

So why respond?


Feel powerless against not only an idea, but a living God?

Oh hardly powerless. What have I to be powerless before but human stupidity and my own heart?


Or is it fear?

Off again.
To paraphrase Éowyn, I fear neither pain nor death, only being caged.
Needless to say, neither you or your dead God frightens me much.


There is no reason to harbor such hate in your heart, if you know who to look to.

I don't hate you. I hate few and despise many. You, I don't even know well enough to despise.
If you hate me so easily, you should perhaps consider anger managment or something.

teerum
12-27-02, 07:48 AM
Now now children....this is not exactly the most intelligent debate I have seen on this site, but regardless.......I must say that the title of this topic in itself is not conducive to an open door policy in attempting to understand each others point of view....

The first problem with anyone who debates the topic of "GOD" is that often (as with many believers) they do not want to admit that none of us Really know the answer. I do not care who you are, how intelligent, how well as historian etc........Human Kind does not have to capacity to comprehend creation. To begin to have a rational intelligent debate, you must first accept this as fact...........can either of you.....debating this tell me you do not agree with this? If so I would LOVE to hear why.........

felix
12-27-02, 08:29 AM
Originally posted by teerum
The isolationist/non aggresive attitude we had prior to 9/11 lead to the death of all those people.

I disagree. I believe it's because we make a practice of keeping many parts of the world unstable so that we can take advantage of their people and their resources that caused the death of all those people. People generally don't come after you because you're just hangin' out minding your own business. They do it because your sticking your nose in where it doesn't belong and where it isn't wanted. 9/11 was very personal to me too. It pisses me off and hurts me emotionally because of friends lost, but I'd be lying if I said the attack surprises me, because I know how our government and our corporations behave ALL over the world.



I am sorry Felix, but please consider what happened on US soil that likely involves Iraq. Do you really think that Bush would simply invade if he did not have a great amount of intelligence that indicates Iraq is a danger?

I still don't believe Iraq had anything to do with it. I sure Saddaam liked it, but likely had nothing to do with it.

And yes, I do believe Bush would simply invade without any intelligence to show Iraq is a danger.

I'm sorry, but I see him showing the same kind of behavior that DID cause 9/11 only to an even bigger extreme.




were you in agreement with Richard Gear also?

I don't know, what did he say?



[b]How many times do you need to get punched in the face before you strike back? or would you rather just sit back and wait for someone to come and kill you?

Well, I'm definitely no passifist, but I do believe in striking at the correct offender. And I'm not convinced that we really even know who committed 9/11. I say that because Osama bin Laden was MY first choice, and the US government said it ALMOST as quickly. I'm a little guy with no real power, so my being hasty just goes to the wind. But when I see my government being hasty, I believe their really just being opportunistic.




[b]We cannot afford to take chances on Faith,,,,,,,and turn our backs.......

I agree, but you sound like you're willing to just take George Bush on faith.

teerum
12-27-02, 09:02 AM
I'm sorry that I really do not have time to respond in detail, however I think it has been pretty well established Felix that Clinton had Bin Laden and his whole network in our sights....and did nothing about it.......I will respond more later.......

Zero
12-27-02, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by Gino
[But really, that is such bullshit. Your idiotic cult has spilled oceans of blood. You ain't the ones being persecuted, the people who stand against your obscene myths are.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Yaaaaaa, please keep it up guy. Show your true colors. I don't give a rat what you say about us christians. This I learned long ago. Why do you make such crass statements. Feel powerless against not only an idea, but a living God? Or is it fear? There is no reason to harbor such hate in your heart, if you know who to look to.

No fear christianity:)

Gino

Gino, it is time you shed your n00bie colors. You probably heard this so many times it's not even funny, but grow up.

The notion of your god is merely an assumption. You are using some "logic" similar to Saddam, you blatantly assume your religious group to be under attack and take this as a "holy war".

Do lay off the :m:


Xev! Go Xev! Good work smacking him/her right one on the kisser.

felix
12-27-02, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by teerum
I'm sorry that I really do not have time to respond in detail, however I think it has been pretty well established Felix that Clinton had Bin Laden and his whole network in our sights....and did nothing about it.......I will respond more later.......

Well, that's true, but it's also true that the CIA during the Reagan Era CREATED bin Laden. He and the Taliban were getting their butts kicked by the Soviet Union when we stepped in with training, funding and supplies. WE are the reason the Taliban was able to take control of Afghanistan and WE are the reason Osama bin Laden knows how to stay out of sight and choose AND destroy targets.

WE are also the reason Saddaam Hussein is IN power in Iraq.

We have a terrible record when it comes to overthrowing governments and putting someone else in power. We should learn to play "world police" ONLY when the UN asks for help and pay more attention to home.

Hell, do you know why South America is full of third world countries? WE are why. It doesn't seem a little strange to you that a continent that is so incredibly rich with natural resources doesn't have one single "industrialized" nation? It's because our government likes it that way...it's much easier to take advantage of people and places when they're unstable. They not any dumber than we are, we just got power first.

In two years President Bush has done enough damage to our economy that we'll be trying to fix it LONG after he's out of office. I can't help it, the more I observe GWB the more he looks like the cause of the weakening of the USA. I'm starting think this administration will be the downfall of the American Empire.

How many treaties has he broken? How many countries is he bullying? How much money has he taken from our wounded economy to put a missile defense system (that doesn't work, I might add) in place? He's even been trying to bully the UN. GWB is not a friend to ANYONE but Oil Corporations, Lumber Corporations, Corporations that produce military weaponry and VERY power hungry politicians. Freakin' John Ashcroft is an ADMITTED fascist. Look it up, it's not hard to find the info. These people are very dangerous to US.

Zero
12-27-02, 11:00 AM
Bush has also botched many diplomacy issues, earning us a horde of hostile countries that Clinton would've wrapped around his McDonalds-grease-covered finger.

Economy is not 100% his fault though, the effects of economic policies often take time to show.

felix
12-27-02, 12:17 PM
I agree that our faltering economy isn't 100% Bush's fault. However, I also believe that the %age that isn't his fault was caused by 9/11. The rest I attribute to Bush. The fact that Reaganomics screwed us for a while, then Bush Sr. didn't help, along with the fact that our economy did nothing but grow stronger the entire time Clinton was in office tells me that it's not Clinton's policies that are hurting us right now.

I am definately not an economic expert.

But the fact that Bush is basically ignoring his economic indicators where war with Iraq is concerned AND where his tax cuts are concerned screams at me. If we're not careful Bush is going to have the USA looking like it's a feudal system.

Nebuchadnezzaar
12-29-02, 04:11 AM
GOD is many things, but god does not suck, he may not even be real, i don't think he/she is. but it provides faith for people a strong combatent of depression i believe for some. Also it could not be said that the teachings of God are amoral at all, at worst they teach people to think about morals and think about how to be better people, a discussion on God is more often than not a discussion about how to better understand OUR world OUR lives and that in NO WAY SUCKS, GOD doesn't suck I LOVE HIM, cos' if he isn't real he is without a doubt the most interesting topic of fictional conversation ever thought up(I mean open up that can of worms, who were the smart buggers or drug takers who thought up God if he isn't real? how interesting!!! how bloody cool.) and if he is? then needless to say he does not suck,

My point, as you probably know, is this, rea or not he does not suck, he pushed us forward and continues to do so

food for munchies....i mean thought.........

platzapS
01-01-03, 05:11 PM
Good job lyndale--I agree with your first post 5 pages ago. about the Bible being proven correct though, I think a lot of Genesis is just symbolic, but other than that, you got it, brother.

Mushukyou
01-17-03, 12:33 AM
KneD, you said to Shady_Reaper:
"But not believing in a god doesn't give you the right to talk about others religion the way you do... "

But in fact, he has every right to say anything he wants, and to talk about anything he wants. It's called free speech. He's allowed to have an opinion about anything at all.
------------------------------------------------
Cris, you said to Shady_Reaper:
"So you have made an unsupported claim in the same way that Christians make unsupported claims when they say a god does exist. "

You said that in reference to his assertion that: "god doesn't exist". Actually, it's a logical conclusion to state that god doesn't exist. It's not a claim that requires a burden of proof. Just like when we say Peter Pan doesn't exist, or the Easter Bunny, or TinkerBell. We can't prove that what we are saying is true - because to do so would require us to do the impossible - disprove a negative. So when someone says that an invisible sky-daddy doesn't exist, don't ask them to "prove it".. it's silly.
------------------------------------------------
Lyndale,
Unless you have evidence of a god existing, then don't say stupid things like: "god exists".
------------------------------------------------
Deadwood:
Why is it "good" that "other people are searching for god"? Did he escape the nut-house? Do we have any reason to believe that god exists? If we don't, then why is it "good" that people are being so gullible as to waste their time looking for something we have no evidence for?

That, my friend, is called delusion, not "goodness".
But you can call it "goodness" if you want - I will not partake in any of your "morals" or ethics.
-----------------------------------------------
thecurly1:
Yes, we have every right to bash Christianity. It is an evil delusion that takes over the minds of stupid people.

You know, there are three things you can know about a christian right off the bat, they are:
#1 Ignorant
(because they don't know how to think - they don't know how to tell reality from fiction)
#2 Gullible
(because they accepted this belief without any evidence)
#3 Dishonest
(because they lie to themselves - and others - about this thing existing)

Always be sure you can know those three things about a christian.

Also, why is it a sin to have homosexual sex? Just because "god says so"? Yea, I guess that's a no-brainer for you guys - "the books says it's "evil".. so..uh.. it is!"
---------------------------------------------
Nebuchadnezzaar,
It's interesting that you "love" something you know nothing about. I love "blah". What's blah, you ask? Well, what's god? Wait, you don't know what god is! But you said you love "it" anyhow? Great.. so, on the same token - do you also love "blah"? If you don't.. you should. See how that works? Wait, I don't think you do.


Faith is the belief in something that is void of logic and reasoning.

Having "faith" for something like a 'god' existing, is just like saying: "I have no good reason to believe in this thing, so I'm just going to anyhow because I want to, since reality won't let me otherwise".

DG Canuck
03-08-03, 08:48 PM
dear Christian brothers, we have nothing to prove to this fool and other lost atheists, it's their problem that they don't believe in God, it's their problem that in their oppinion, people weren't created by God, it's their problem that they DO BELIEVE that a monkey is their father and a fly is their cousin, it's their problem that they don't love God and Jesus, who died on that cross for THEIR sins.
I don't see any point in trying to convince them that God is REAL, because it is obvious.
here are some quotes about atheists:
"Atheism is the death of hope, the suicide of the soul....."
Anonymous

"Atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man....."
Sir Francis Bacon

"An atheist is a man who looks through a telescope and tries to explain what he can’t see....."
O.A. Battista :
Power to Influence People c.1959

AMEN to that.

Talking about the pope.......he and other catholic so called priests don't serve God, they serve the devil. If you need any proof, I can give you as much as you wish.

God Bless you ppl

Mushukyou
03-08-03, 09:03 PM
You're about as bright as a burnt-out xmas tree light, DG Canuck.

It's your problem that you don't believe in Peter Pan.

Makes a lot of sense, no? About as much as telling me I have a problem because I don't believe in your invisible sky-daddy.

There is no reason to believe a soul exists.

You said you can give us all the evidence we want.. does that pertain to only the Pope that you were speaking about, or can you actually give evidence for a god as well?

You said that it's "obvious" a god exists... where is it obvious? Please show us the light.

I saw no logic in your post - just mindless ranting.
Why don't you try making sense.
Did you know you represent the majority of this country? A mindless sheep.

Cris
03-08-03, 10:58 PM
DG,


dear Christian brothers, Strength in numbers, right? Or is that just your usual approach when beginning a sermon?


we have nothing to prove If said loud enough and often enough you can probably convince most gullible people.


to this fool Insults tend to be the tactic when reason has failed.


and other lost atheists, Emotive statements and propaganda also tend to highlight the failed argument.


it's their problem that they don't believe in God,You’ll find that atheists really don’t have a problem with this, after all it is their fundamental position. But it certainly looks like you have a problem otherwise you wouldn’t be trying to convince your ‘brothers’, and yourself.


it's their problem that in their oppinion, people weren't created by God, Opinion? Try taking a biology class.


it's their problem that they DO BELIEVE that a monkey is their father and a fly is their cousin,Only if they share your ignorance of evolution.


it's their problem that they don't love God and Jesus, who died on that cross for THEIR sins.Again there can be no problem with things that are only fantasies.


I don't see any point in trying to convince them that God is REAL, because it is obvious.If it was so obvious then there wouldn’t be any atheists.


"Atheism is the death of hope, the suicide of the soul....."
Anonymous

"Atheism is rather in the lip than in the heart of man....."
Sir Francis Bacon

"An atheist is a man who looks through a telescope and tries to explain what he can’t see....."
O.A. Battista :
Power to Influence People c.1959Ah propaganda, the tactic of the desperate; used where facts and reason are absent.


AMEN to that. End of sermon, right?

DG Canuck
03-09-03, 08:28 AM
hahaha guys you're ridiculos....I didnt even bother to read all your stuff, there was too much to read, isnt worth my time.
well, what can I say, I feel pity for you, I don't want to waste my time and try to kick some sense into you, because you're just a couple of stubborn fools. You're following the wrong path, and maybe one day you'll understand it, hope it won't be too late.
PS: whats with this sermon stuff? believing doesnt mean going to church, I dont even go to church.
PPS "opinion" I misspell this word soemtimes, sorry but English is not my first language, try to learn other 4 languages that I speak.
God Bless

Mushukyou
03-09-03, 08:33 AM
Dude, you're a complete moron.
If you don't read what people post in response, then why are you here posting shit?
I'll tell you why - because you're a narrow-minded piece of shit that doesn't give a rat's ass about the truth - only what goes on inside your little head.

The only people here that need to learn some sense is yourself.

We didn't say "sermon" is for church only, moron. We said *you* were giving a sermon. You obviously looked up the word and thought it only pertained to going to church.

Go fuckin shoot yourself.
You're a pathetic waste of space.
Freakin moron.

Moderator comment - Please leave out the profanities and ad hominem attacks.

Persol
03-09-03, 09:39 AM
God doesn't suck... he blows...


Now the real question is; spit or swallow?

Cris
03-09-03, 10:36 AM
DG,


hahaha guys you're ridiculos....An assertion doesn’t mean it is true. Why not attempt to explain why you think this. This is a debate forum.


I didnt even bother to read all your stuff, there was too much to read,These were short and lightweight posts. If you don’t have the courtesy to read responses to your posts then why should we read yours?


isnt worth my time. One of the values of debating is that one is willing to consider other points of view. Your comment seems to indicate that you have locked yourself into one every narrow minded perspective, i.e. the arrogant attitude that you believe you have all the answers and that no one else has anything worthwhile.


well, what can I say, I feel pity for you, I don't want to waste my time and try to kick some sense into you, because you're just a couple of stubborn fools. We have no interest in your pity, so why offer it? You have yet to show that you have any ability to kick sense into anything. All you have done is make baseless assertions and throw insults. I.e. you have offered nothing of any value.


You're following the wrong path, and maybe one day you'll understand it, hope it won't be too late.More baseless assertions. Argue your point with some factual support or remain silent.


PS: whats with this sermon stuff? believing doesnt mean going to church, I dont even go to church.People can sermonize in any environment. The point is that this is an interactive debate forum and not for people to preach their views and expect to be accepted.


PPS "opinion" I misspell this word soemtimes, sorry but English is not my first language, try to learn other 4 languages that I speak.Most here are very tolerant of spelling errors. We are not interested in such niceties provided that the meaning is clear.

BTW, welcome to sciforums. You appear to be a very inexperienced debater. If you are interested in extending your understanding of life and other people then stick around and try to debate rather than preach.

You appear to only know the indoctrination you have received from Christianity. This makes you very raw and vulnerable to reality. Take care.

Mushukyou
03-09-03, 10:46 AM
An ad hominem is a use of insults as a basis for one's argument.. I argued fine with points in the discussion.

What I did was express intolerance with the use of insults.

This was in addition to my argument, so is not considered any type of an ad hominem attack.

And what is wrong with profanity? :)

Cris
03-09-03, 04:55 PM
Mush,

The guidelines here are that it is fine to attack the argument but not the person.

Calling someone a moron is an attack on the person and adds nothing to any underlying argument.

And profanities are specifically mentioned in the rules of the site, which you agreed to when you joined.

Otherwise, welcome to sciforums.

Mushukyou
03-09-03, 05:47 PM
Ok fine.
I'm not used to a forum of attack being "moderated".
I guess this is a fluffy place.
No, I didn't read the thing when I clicked "I accept" - who does?

Visiting my site (http://www.mushukyou.com) , you'd see I'm not all into being fluffy.

I'll adjust here. :)

Xev
03-09-03, 05:54 PM
Kick-ass site!


I guess this is a fluffy place.

Depending on the mod. :)

Cris
03-09-03, 06:27 PM
Definitely fluffy compared to yours.

Interesting site you have.

Cris
03-09-03, 06:30 PM
Mush,

Yeah Xev is definitely more your style.

Persol
03-09-03, 07:02 PM
Mushyukyou,

That site is funny. I've got a religious dude sitting here to and even he laughed at it:)

I personally love:
God had to kill himself
to appease himself
so that He wouldn't have to roast us,
(His beloved creations)
alive for all eternity.
He loves us more than
we can comprehend
but, if we don't love him back,
He will send us to HELL to suffer forever and ever.
That really is AMAZING GRACE!

Jesus is 'coming' is funny too. It goes with the 'God loves little children' sign:D

KingBee8472
03-11-03, 06:26 PM
Religion has been the source of the majority of wars conducted in the Middle East. Evan the Protestants and Catholics (My Mom wants me to be Catholic by the way), BOTH CHRISTIANS can't get along. And has anyone heard about the Crusades? Does God Love us that much? [SIZE=4][SIZE=4] :confused:

Mushukyou
03-11-03, 07:40 PM
Yes, it's so good to know we have a bunch of deluded, virtual-reality-living morons in our government, lead by the supreme borg himself called Bush.

Who else can't wait until Korea, Germany, Russia, China, France, and Turkey beat our ass for what we're doing over there? :)

I think small pox might be an option...
What other attacks do you people see coming? :)

Thank you Bush!
What a great "appointed" leader we have!

KingBee8472
03-12-03, 11:07 PM
well mushu, I don't know about France "kicking our ass" but I safley say your comment has worth. :)

Bridge
03-12-03, 11:24 PM
From the website which is supposedly funny:


By the way, we deserved what happened on Sept. 11th

Real funny.:mad: What religion does this dude adhere to that thinks this website is so funny?

Just curious.

Mushukyou
03-12-03, 11:54 PM
Maybe the civilians didn't deserve what happened Sept. 11th, but America itself did. If you have any idea the crap we've been doing to other countries, and building bases over there after they told us to leave, infesting their sacred land... NO WONDER the twin towers went down.... you should do something else other than watch CNN news, bro.

Mushukyou

Xev
03-13-03, 12:28 AM
Maybe the civilians didn't deserve what happened Sept. 11th, but America itself did.

Cris, understand that my categorization of Mushukyu as an idiot is not ad hominem - it is a statement of fact.

Mushukyu, you're an idiot. "America" is a place. I'm unsure of how a place can "deserve" anything....although "my fridge" "deserves" to be raided.


f you have any idea the crap we've been doing to other countries, and building bases over there after they told us to leave, infesting their sacred land... NO WONDER the twin towers went down.... you should do something else other than watch CNN news, bro.

This doesn't prove that "America deserved" anything. It simply proves that the American government is "doing crap" to other countries.

Try again, and next time put a little effort into it.

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 12:42 AM
Yes, I agree that the "government" deserves what *IT* has been doing to other countries, but I figured that you would get the whole picture when I stated: "America", because that's what other countries see (they focus on "all of America", and they don't single-out the 'government' as the bad source specifically, even though you and I know it is)

When our government does things to other countries, *all* of america gets the blame and the reputation.. unless, of course, in instances like now when we have an appointed dictator like Bush who likes the idea of killing people even when the majority of the people in the country oppose... perhaps now they will see we don't support our government..... just like in Britain.. their people don't support their government's support of us.

So please, why don't *you* think before you respond.. unless you request I spell everything out for you all the time. :)

Xev
03-13-03, 12:48 AM
Yes, I agree that the "government" deserves what *IT* has been doing to other countries, but I figured that you would get the whole picture when I stated: "America", because that's what other countries see (they focus on "all of America", and they don't single-out the 'government' as the bad source specifically, even though you and I know it is)

Why does the "government" deserve it?

Dr Lou Natic
03-13-03, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Mushukyou
Yes, I agree that the "government" deserves what *IT* has been doing to other countries, but I figured that you would get the whole picture when I stated: "America", because that's what other countries see (they focus on "all of America", and they don't single-out the 'government' as the bad source specifically, even though you and I know it is)

So please, why don't *you* think before you respond.. unless you request I spell everything out for you all the time. :)
By that logic the middle east "deserves" payback for 9/11. It doesn't matter what part of the middle east, just as long as lots of middle easterners die.

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 12:51 AM
Why does the government deserve bad things for the things it does to other countries?

Well, because it wasn't approved by the people?

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
By that logic the middle east "deserves" payback for 9/11. It doesn't matter what part of the middle east, just as long as lots of middle easterners die.

Yea, well, you're being a bit more vague than just a country itself, which is what I started off on...

..but you're on the right track. That's how people think for the large part. I am not saying I agree with it, obviously, but we get the flack for the crap our government pulls. It's unavoidable for the most part. People aren't as well versed in common sense as perhaps we would like to consider ourselves - so although some things make sense to us, some people don't apply the equation correctly, and just generalize and point fingers.

Dr Lou Natic
03-13-03, 12:56 AM
Most governments won't even tell their people anything. "seeking approval from the people" is probably america's only weakness.

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Most governments won't even tell their people anything. "seeking approval from the people" is probably america's only weakness.

Which raises a question:
How much of our current population would point a gun at our government, more-so than it currently does, if they only knew just *half* of the unknown deeds our government pulled on others? :bugeye:

Xev
03-13-03, 01:01 AM
Well, because it wasn't approved by the people?

What relevence does that have?

Can you prove the existence of some Karmic force of "deserving bad things"?

Dr Lou Natic
03-13-03, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Mushukyou
Which raises a question:
How much of our current population would point a gun at our government, more-so than it currently does, if they only knew just *half* of the unknown deeds our government pulled on others? :bugeye:
Probably more, who cares, the population is dumb.
I have a question, if iraq or afghanistan or whoever were as strong as america and america were as weak as them do you think there even would BE an america right now? Of course not, because the governments of those countries do whatever the hell they want and don't care if they look bad to the public.

What does this have to do with god's suckitude?:bugeye:

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Xev
What relevence does that have?

Can you prove the existence of some Karmic force of "deserving bad things"?

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, bro....
but if a government does something unjustly to another place, the blame falls on them... the people that attacked us on Sept. 11th were returning the kindness we offered them. (the kindness our government offered them in the past).

We, "America", were to pay for the doings of our government that acted without our approval.
That is what I meant - nothing more.
How did you interpret it?

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Dr Lou Natic
Probably more, who cares, the population is dumb.
I have a question, if iraq or afghanistan or whoever were as strong as america and america were as weak as them do you think there even would BE an america right now? Of course not, because the governments of those countries do whatever the hell they want and don't care if they look bad to the public.

What does this have to do with god's suckitude?:bugeye:

Well, so you think other countries would really act like we are currently if they had the power? I dunno man, there's a lot of differences in morals and ethics out there.

The reason for this thread? Cause I started it and I should be shot. :)
God's suckitude plays no part, except in the eyes of our minister... er... I mean president.

Dr Lou Natic
03-13-03, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Mushukyou
Well, so you think other countries would really act like we are currently if they had the power?
No, like I said they would be about 10 times MORE active in violently taking over the world.

Xev
03-13-03, 04:32 AM
Mushukyu:

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, bro....
but if a government does something unjustly to another place, the blame falls on them... the people that attacked us on Sept. 11th were returning the kindness we offered them. (the kindness our government offered them in the past).

Huh? This doesn't even make logical sense. Are you saying that a government isn't responsible for just actions - only for unjust actions?

What is "something unjust" anyway?

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Xev
Mushukyu:


Huh? This doesn't even make logical sense. Are you saying that a government isn't responsible for just actions - only for unjust actions?

What is "something unjust" anyway?

What the heck are you talking about?! hahah
I never said that!
Man, get off the crack!

Xev
03-13-03, 02:01 PM
That's the only string of argument I can find in your posts. Your theory seems to be:

The US government does things with which I disagree, therefore the US government deserves to be hurt, punished, taught a lesson, whatever.

Mushukyou
03-13-03, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Xev
That's the only string of argument I can find in your posts. Your theory seems to be:

The US government does things with which I disagree, therefore the US government deserves to be hurt, punished, taught a lesson, whatever.

No, what I said was:
The government does things that the American people don't exactly know about on a large basis and would potentially disagree with, which is what led to Sept. 11th attack.

The government is also responsible for many other feats which, if the people of this country knew about, would be even less pleased with their performance.

The government is now led by an appointed dictator named Bush who is bent on war, even though I feel it's pretty obvious the anti-war protestants are in the majority - adding to that his statement that he will not listen to anti-war protestants nor let them sway him from doing what he feels he wants to do.

We will very well get our asses handed to us if we continue, in my opinion.

Also, it really pisses me off that we think we have the right to change other country's foreign policies.

Our government is nothing but a "big brother" over the entire world, and it's getting old and lame.

Trevor
03-13-03, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Shady_Reaper
There are many reasons god sucks here are a few of them feel free to post your own reasons.
1. He doesn't exist
2. What kind of name is god for a god
3.He let his son face a horrible death
4.If he's not the boss or you don't play his way you lose
5. He makes people kill other people
6. he won't let you wack off or have sex with whoever you want
7. he'll be responsible for the end of the world
8. If he's so great why is it when people talk him are thrown in the nut house
9.His book is the most boring book ever written
10.He makes people attack proven facts or inhibit technological advancement
11. He makes the streets filled with poor and homeless children by denying abortions

1. No shit.
2. His name is Yahweh (assuming you are referring to the chirstian god).
3. He is a malevolent sadistic asshole according to the bible.
4. ditto
5. ditto.
6. ditto
7. ditto
8. People, in general, are dumbasses.
9. There are worse books. At least god will "smear crap in your face" if you don't do what he says, as the bible says.
10. see #8.
11. See #4 and #8.

Check out the message board at
http://www.atheistnetwork.com

anonymous
07-14-04, 08:55 PM
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www.dpjs.co.uk/god.html
www.mooseswamp.com/god
http://pubweb.northwestern.edu/~jww990/god4/index.html
www.religionisbullshit.com/

Silvertusk
04-08-05, 06:00 AM
A quote from Tiassa...

"If Jesus weeps, it's because he's tired of bleeding for such senselessness as you preach."

I don't know whether you intended it to be Tiassa, but IMO that is a powerful quote. In a sense it is also quite a heartbreaking quote because there is a lot of truth in that statement because it is a big problem with a lot of christians. Although not always the case, I don't think I have met a more judgemental group of people, when it was explicitly stated that we should not Judge. And our attitude in general very rarely falls under the "Love your Neighbours" Category. There are a lot of bad "Christians" out there who have no right to call themselves Christians at all and have missed the point entirely.

A question to the Athiests on this forum (Be honest now :) )......

If any of you hate christians, is it because of what it is written that a christian should be, or is it because of what this "christian" actually is?

audible
04-08-05, 08:44 AM
A question to the Athiests on this forum (Be honest now :)
If any of you hate christians, is it because of what it is written that a christian should be, or is it because of what this "christian" actually is?firstly theres no hatred, so on that premise the question cant be answered, why are you assuming theres hatred, we are not here to fight to the death, we are here to have a civilised debate.( and yes I know we all shout and cuss, but we are'nt going to kill each other.)
however I will try to answer you question, for a start no christian is a true christian ( this would be impossible to follow)but they all claim to be which makes them hypocrites see here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40907) and here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42174).
they can be whatever they want to be, but they should'nt try teach us morality if theres is suspect.
so it's a bit of both.

Silvertusk
04-08-05, 08:58 AM
firstly theres no hatred, so on that premise the question cant be answered, why are you assuming theres hatred, we are not here to fight to the death, we are here to have a civilised debate.( and yes I know we all shout and cuss, but we are'nt going to kill each other.)
however I will try to answer you question, for a start no christian is a true christian ( this would be impossible to follow)but they all claim to be which makes them hypocrites see here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=40907) and here (http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=42174).
they can be whatever they want to be, but they should'nt try teach us morality if theres is suspect.
so it's a bit of both.

Cheers for the answer.

I am not assuming hatred, I just asked if there was any Athiests out there on this forum that did hate Christians, what were you reasons. If there aren't any on here then fair enough.

But I disagree that a christian cannot be a true christian. A christian is a follower of Christ. The aim is of course to be Christ-Like. No one can actually achieve that but the important thing is in the "try" part of that equation. And also as important IMO to recognise your shortcomings in achieving that goal. A "Christian" who judges people and is intolerant of other beliefs, including Athiestic ones, and feels right in doing so is not a true christian. A christian who tries not to judge people and tries to be tolerant and loving is a true Christian. They might not always succeed, but at least they are trying and are aware of their shortcomings. Which is why I asked the question really, because a great deal of "christians" fall into the first category.